Hemp processing and its many complexities is the main topic of discussion in this episode with Clean Leaf’s Kyle Egbert. Egbert is a trained scientist, a small business owner, and the founder of both Clean Leaf and Mountain Valley Botanicals. His specialty is processing hemp to extract components that can be used to manufacture cannabis products.
Tim and Chris opened the episode with a quick discussion on Wholesome and their new door-to-door delivery service. [00:44] Wholesome recently began deliveries in a limited number of Utah counties. They have plans to expand statewide in the very near future.
Getting back to Egbert, he led a fascinating discussion about the complexities of processing raw hemp. [03:44] There are numerous ways to do it; Egbert prefers CO2 processing because it is a more exact science. It allows him to extract specific chemicals to create an almost unlimited number of CBD and THC profiles.
The discussion covered a lot of bases ranging from the science of processing [05:44] to the cost of licensing [35:38]. Tim, Chris, and Kyle discussed how growers get their hemp processed and how the processed products eventually make it to consumers. [22:05] Bear in mind, all of this was related to hemp rather than marijuana.
If nothing else, the discussion clearly demonstrates how complex the science of hemp and marijuana processing is. The science is necessary in order to ensure that growers, processors, and retailers all remain within the confines of Utah law [25:49]. The more business owners like Egbert learn about this science, the better retail products become.
Egbert brought samples for Tim and Chris with him to the interview. Tim and Chris briefly talked about them during their opening monologue. You can expect to hear more about them in the future.
Tim Pickett: So welcome everybody to Utah in the Weeds. Chris Holifield and I, my name is Tim Pickett, I am a medical cannabis expert with UtahMarijuana.org. You can find our podcast on utahmarijuana.org/podcast. Chris, we’re doing the intro a little different this week to episode 43, right?
Chris Holifield: Absolutely. I think this way will be a lot easier because a lot of times we chat with people a few weeks back, right? But there’s a lot more topical stuff that we want to bring up at the beginning. Like right now, I realized delivery is available everywhere, it’s not just Utah County and Salt Lake County. Did you see this, Tim?
Tim Pickett: No. Well, absolutely. We sent out an email to all of our patients and all of our email list a few days ago about Wholesome delivery.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: And there’s a coupon code if you sign up for the email list on utahmarijuana.org. There’s a coupon code that you can get your first delivery free.
Chris Holifield: No kidding.
Tim Pickett: When you register using that coupon code. Yeah, this is exactly why I think having a timely intro is a good idea.
Chris Holifield: Yeah. So where can they get this coupon code? How can they find this? Is this on utahmarijuana.org?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, utahmarijuana.org. Sign up for the email list. If you just sign up for our newsletter at the bottom of the website or anywhere, and if you’re already a patient, of course, you’re going to get this email coupon code. But yeah, if you sign up with us then we’ll be able to send you that unique coupon code for your first delivery free. It’s pretty awesome –
Chris Holifield: Take advantage of that.
Tim Pickett: … because I mean, they have delivery in I think Summit County, in Utah County, they’re really branching out.
Chris Holifield: It was like Tooele, Wasatch. I mean, it sounds like pretty much the whole state now is open.
Tim Pickett: They’re going to open to the whole state, and Chris Jeffery is the CEO of Wholesome, who we interviewed in one of our first episodes with Richard, their retail manager, the retail director. Their background is in home delivery, so they’re going to be really good at it.
Chris Holifield: Who doesn’t want their cannabis delivered to their doorstep, right? Who’s on the podcast today, Tim?
Tim Pickett: The guest we have today is Kyle Egbert. I’m really excited about this interview. I did https://mjplatform.com/mjnot know a lot about the types of processing that you could do with hemp or cannabis, and we talked a lot about that with him. He gave us some samples, remember? The CBD cartridge.
Chris Holifield: Oh yeah.
Tim Pickett: Have you been using that a little bit?
Chris Holifield: Actually I have. The liquid, that syringe one he gave us to put on the … And we talk about this in the episode, where he said, “Put it on your dry flower when you vape it.” I’ve only been using that, so.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, and I’ve only been using the cartridge.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Tim Pickett: And for the first time I’ve had a cartridge that really is buffering. That’s how I describe it. So, I’m excited about people listening to this episode, learning about that process, and he makes some really good stuff. He’s got a cool story.
Chris Holifield: Absolutely. We’re going to get into that. He’s the founder of Mountain Valley Botanicals and My Clean Leaf. Great story. I mean, this guy’s got a … He’s a knowledge basket. I mean, he’s a book of knowledge with CBD and cannabis and all that. We’re going to get into that. Make sure you’re subscribed in whatever podcast outlet you’re listening to this in. If you can’t find this in a certain podcast outlet, let Tim or myself know so we can make sure this podcast becomes available. I don’t know, I don’t have anything more to say about this episode, Tim. I think we should get into that conversation with Kyle, unless you got anything more to say.
Tim Pickett: No. Good luck, have fun.
Chris Holifield: All right. Thanks guys for listening. Here we go.
…
Chris Holifield: You’re involved a lot with hemp, correct?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: I mean, you got My Clean Leaf and Mountain Valley Botanical.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Do those work together or are those separate? It looks like they kind of work together.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah. So, Mountain Valley Botanical started in 2019. That’s when I first received the processing license. It was probably about November, December, and then we processed all last year doing supercritical CO2 extraction. Then with, I don’t know how familiar you guys are with the hemp market and that side of things.
Chris Holifield: Not as much as I should be.
Kyle Egbert: Well, as far as the materials, the prices on the materials, a liter of crude when I first started was probably, oh gosh, of crude probably 3,200 to five grand is what you could sell it for.
Tim Pickett: This is crude CBD oil.
Kyle Egbert: That is crude, yeah. I mean, it’s got the fats and the waxes, and pretty much got everything in it.
Tim Pickett: Oh, this is basically just squished hemp.
Kyle Egbert: You pull it right out of the machine. Yeah, essentially.
Tim Pickett: Okay.
Kyle Egbert: And then the market really tanked bad. I mean, it was 90% loss on the market. So now a liter of crude — I can pick that up easy 135 bucks.
Tim Pickett: Holy cow.
Kyle Egbert: So, because of that we had to adapt our business. We were always interested in doing products, retail products and consumer stuff, which is what I brought here. We were always interested in doing that, but then really when the market shifted in that direction it was a no-brainer for us to start producing retail products and get that out to the consumer.
Tim Pickett: Because you were originally just going to process.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, process and sell that, get it out to someone else that was going to make a product out of it.
Tim Pickett: So we’ve had a few hemp growers on the podcast, but we really haven’t talked a lot about the processing and CO2 extraction. Can you educate us a little bit about the different methods of extraction and why you chose CO2?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Because I think it’s important for people to understand.
Kyle Egbert: So, before I talk about CO2 extraction, most of the consumer base, they have this affinity for CO2 extraction. They think it’s the best, right? I’ll say it flat-out right here, right now, no matter which method you employ to do extraction, you can arrive to the same high quality end product that can be consumed. So, I mean, you can do CO2 extraction, you can do ethanol extraction, you can do hydrocarbon extraction, which is illegal in Utah. You can also press it and do more of a physical extraction that way. You can also throw it in a pot with MCT oil, turn up the heat and just let it steep in there, and they refer to that as a solventless extraction. So really what it came down to was we could either press it, use ethanol or CO2.
Kyle Egbert: Really the reason why we chose CO2 is because of that consumer perception that CO2 is the best really. So we chose that method. Another kind of smaller reason is because as far as the economics goes, it’s pricier upfront for the equipment for CO2 extraction, but CO2 is much cheaper than ethanol. So in the long run CO2 can be cheaper than doing an ethanol extraction. Also too with CO2, I have the ability to manipulate the CO2 to target certain compounds in the plant itself. So if I just want to pull out terpenes I can fudge my numbers a little bit and all of a sudden I’m pulling pure terpenes. If I want to target more of the cannabinoids, again, I change my parameters and I can get those cannabinoids out.
Kyle Egbert: So, I do have an ability to almost fraction terpenes and cannabinoids, separate them, or I can extract them all together, it really doesn’t matter. So I have more options extracting with CO2 than I would with ethanol. Ethanol is a really strong solvent, and so when you’re running hemp through, you’re just pulling anything and everything you’re pulling it out, whereas with CO2 you have more of that flexibility to target certain compounds.
Tim Pickett: This is cool, and this is the same process that they extract THC?
Kyle Egbert: Exact same.
Tim Pickett: Exact same.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, yeah. If you’re doing CO2 extraction on marijuana it’s the same process. Everything that I’m doing in my laboratory, if I had a marijuana processing license, the only difference would be I’d be processing marijuana instead of hemp.
Chris Holifield: Why did you get into all this stuff? I mean, what got you into this? This is your business, right?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: So, you started all this.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah. I founded this.
Chris Holifield: I mean, I looked at your education, you went to BYU the whole nine yards, right?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: I mean, you got great education.
Kyle Egbert: Yes.
Chris Holifield: What got you into this, man?
Kyle Egbert: So, I started a degree at BYU Idaho up at Rexburg, and that was in agronomy. Are you guys familiar with what agronomy is?
Chris Holifield: I’m not, no.
Kyle Egbert: So, agronomy is essentially large scale farming crop production, being able to manage that, knowing plants, plant science, soil science, chemistry, water physics, different things like this. A lot of people don’t really understand how intensive and how involved agriculture is. There is a lot of science behind it. So, I started my degree up there, graduated in 2019, no, 2018, it was the end of 2018. My wife and I moved down here to Logan, started my master’s degree in plant science at Utah State University, and what I was looking at in my master’s program is I was actually doing irrigation research on alfalfa.
Tim Pickett: Oh wow.
Kyle Egbert: And most of my research took place down in Central Utah, kind of that Richfield, Centerfield, Monroe area. I had many fields down there. So, because of that I would travel a lot. Through my travels I started my program, and then Utah amended their laws, said, “All right, we’re going to do this. Marijuana, hemp, all things cannabis we’re going to do it.” And it was really new. I was traveling the state talking with hemp farmers, because this started popping up. A lot of the growers that I was working with doing alfalfa research they were interested in hemp, growing a small plot, like an acre or half an acre, or a couple 100 plants.
Tim Pickett: Just to test it out or just-
Kyle Egbert: Just test it out. Well, they were interested in it because at that time, and this was another thing that kind of … This is a whole other mess. A lot of the growers thought you could grow an acre of hemp and turn that into $60,000. That was the idea.
Tim Pickett: Because at the time the crude was-
Kyle Egbert: Was so expensive.
Tim Pickett: … so expensive.
Kyle Egbert: That ended up not being true, and a lot of farmers got burned. That’s a whole other thing, but anyway. So, I was traveling, farmers were interested in it, and then these meetings started popping up around the state with legislators, with farmers, with the university, and this was such a new thing. We’re going from black market to now white market, and there was a lot of gaps, there was a lot of doors of opportunity. So in my travels I was like, “You know what? This might be something I could do.”
Kyle Egbert: So originally I was actually going to grow. I was going to get some land up in Logan, I was going to grow. I was going to put in 10 acres.
Chris Holifield: Of hemp?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, hemp.
Chris Holifield: Of hemp, okay.
Kyle Egbert: And I was going to grow hemp. Well, looking at the market, seeing how everything was going I decided that farming was not going to be the best option for me. I went through and I looked at how many licenses there were of growing hemp, individuals growing hemp, and I was like, “You know what? This is pretty saturated right now. Why not look at starting a laboratory?” So I started looking at what would be involved. What are successful laboratories in Colorado and California and all these other states, what are they doing? How are they doing it? Going into this I had no idea how involved a laboratory was. I had to learn a lot.
Chris Holifield: So you were halfway into probably putting a thing together and you were like, “What did I get myself into?”
Kyle Egbert: I mean, because of my master’s program, learning to be a scientist I got really good at doing research. Pulling up an article, a technical article, reading the article, doing all that, that might be a little overwhelming for a lot of people and boring. For me, that’s what I was doing in my master’s program, so I was already used to doing that. So every day I’m reading, every day I’m studying, every day I’m looking to solve a problem. One day I would have a certain problem, the next day I’d have a totally different problem, and I just would have to solve those problems. Like okay, I have this ability to target different compounds through CO2 extraction. How the heck do I do that?
Tim Pickett: Right.
Kyle Egbert: Especially having no prior experience at another company, I had to figure that out. So again, going back to the books, chemistry books, physics books, articles, YouTube, whatever, trying to figure out how to do this. Eventually, I got pretty good at it.
Chris Holifield: Were you meeting with anybody that was doing it? Did you have any real-life mentors?
Kyle Egbert: I went to Colorado. I went to Colorado a few times.
Chris Holifield: Okay. So you had some people out there to –
Kyle Egbert: But what I was doing out there was actually hydrocarbon extraction, I wasn’t doing any CO2 extraction.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Kyle Egbert: And hydrocarbon extraction is fun, but that’s not what I was doing, but a lot of the principles of the post extraction are the exact same. So I was able to do the post-extraction and get more experience that way, but as far as doing extraction with CO2, I mean, I really had to teach myself how to do that.
Tim Pickett: So how did you get out of the lab? I mean, were you thinking about doing a testing lab or a production lab the whole time?
Kyle Egbert: Production. Do you know what an HPLC is?
Tim Pickett: No.
Kyle Egbert: High-performance liquid chromatography or high-pressure liquid chromatography.
Tim Pickett: Teach us.
Kyle Egbert: It’s analytics.
Tim Pickett: Teach us, Kyle.
Kyle Egbert: So when you send a sample off to be analyzed, cannabinoid potency, they run it through an HPLC typically. So, I wanted the ability to extract and then take that extract and look at it, look at the chemical analysis of it, see what was in there, see what I was dealing with.
Tim Pickett: Sure.
Kyle Egbert: So originally it was production, but I wanted to put out the best product that I could absolutely put out, so that involved chemical analysis. I mean, our lab, we have the full capability to go from raw hemp biomass, all the way to something that is water clear and tastes amazing, and that includes extraction, winterization, distillation, further refinement using chromatographic methods, different things like that. So really, I mean, I would have a problem and I would spend the next week or two, or month, or longer, trying to figure out how to solve that problem. Eventually, I got to something like this, which is absolutely phenomenal. I love this product.
Chris Holifield: Which you’re showing us some cartridges.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, this is … Well, and I’ll just throw this to you, here.
Chris Holifield: Since we don’t have video setup for the podcast yet. So what am I looking at here? I got a container with some white –
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, so those are crystallized cannabinoids. I did the analysis on that actually last night, and it’s primarily CBD crystallized out. A lot of times you’ll see it in a fine powder, but I wanted to just let these suckers grow and have something pretty cool to visualize.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, it looks like white rock candy.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Now, what would happen if you would suck on some of this?
Kyle Egbert: You would just be getting a dose of CBD really.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Kyle Egbert: It’s primarily CBD.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Tim Pickett: That’s in here.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah. I mean, there are trace amounts of CBDV, THCV, CBN and CBC in that, but there’s non detectable levels of delta-8 and delta-9 THC.
Tim Pickett: So okay, you bring up delta-8, right?
Chris Holifield: Delta-8.
Tim Pickett: Delta-8 is like the big-
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Is the big discussion topic right now, right?
Kyle Egbert: Oh, delta-8.
Tim Pickett: Oh, delta-8.
Kyle Egbert: Oh, how I have a love-hate relationship with you.
Tim Pickett: I’m sure, but you can extract it out.
Kyle Egbert: Oh yeah, I can.
Tim Pickett: You’re not the hemp farmer that just got their crop designated as too hot and now has to destroy it. You could just take all that biomass and extract what you need.
Kyle Egbert: Oh boy. So, when I get biomass typically it tests within .3%, maybe .31%, .29%, whatever, but as long as it’s within that tolerance, near .3%, the dry biomass. As soon as I take that and process it, and this is a huge problem in extraction, as soon as I take that biomass and run it through my equipment, I turn that from a hemp product right into a marijuana product.
Tim Pickett: Well yeah, because you took out all the THC and now you have it in a five-gallon bucket over here.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, exactly. So, if I’m taking it, if I’ve got biomass at .3% THC, when I extract that into crude, all of a sudden it turns into 3% THC, designated by law, that’s marijuana.
Tim Pickett: What the heck do you do with it?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Don’t look at me!
Tim Pickett: What’s your address up there?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, seriously. So this is the thing.
Tim Pickett: Everybody wants your address all of a sudden.
Kyle Egbert: Like I said, as soon as I extract that I’m essentially turning it, taking it from hemp biomass turning it into marijuana concentrate essentially.
Tim Pickett: Low-
Kyle Egbert: Low THC.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, of course.
Kyle Egbert: I mean, it’s two, 3%, but if I take that and I started to refine it down even further, if I distill it and I’m doing all these different processes, I’ve seen as high as 10% THC on the extract itself. I can’t put that into a product legally, it’s marijuana.
Tim Pickett: This is fascinating.
Kyle Egbert: I mean, even for example, and I brought these, I can toss these over to you guys. So this is our green cream.
Tim Pickett: Okay, this is like half an ounce, a tablespoon.
Chris Holifield: What is it, like a lotion or something?
Kyle Egbert: It’s seven mLs, it’s .25 ounces. This is just our sample topical. We call it green cream.
Chris Holifield: So you rub it on your body or something?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah. Yeah, you can rub it on.
Tim Pickett: What’s the scent I smell? Other than … I mean, I-
Kyle Egbert: It’s a proprietary blend of oils, is what I can tell you.
Tim Pickett: But it’s like a little bit of menthol-y.
Kyle Egbert: Lavender.
Tim Pickett: Eucalyptus almost.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, lavender, eucalyptus, tea tree, that’s kind of what builds that aroma.
Tim Pickett: To kind of overcome the skunky.
Kyle Egbert: So I actually don’t mask any scent. A lot of times in hemp products, and we can talk about this down the road, a lot of times, especially in tinctures, they’re always trying to mask just kind of-
Tim Pickett: Yeah, the skunk.
Kyle Egbert: … that skunky, dirty taste. With our products and our tinctures, I’m not masking, and the reason why is because the way that I refine it. Our tinctures when you take it and it’s a cinnamon tincture, you taste cinnamon and you don’t have those undertones of kind of that dirty extract. So, it’s a little bit different, but anyway.
Tim Pickett: Okay, we’re back to the THC.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, we’re back to the THC thing. So, even in this, which our green cream is what the cannabinoid is the greatest dilution. So when we put our cannabinoids into this green cream, it’s that’s how we dilute it the most in this product. Even at 10%, it gets pretty difficult to dilute that. So, by law, I have to be really careful. So, if I extract a product and I have this oil, and if the farmer legally owns that liter of oil, unless they have a processor’s license, they cannot possess their crude extract.
Tim Pickett: What?
Kyle Egbert: So there’s all these problems with a farmer, as a service, as a laboratory, if they’re bringing it to me and they say, “Hey, I want you to extract this and I want my oil.” The first thing I say to them is, “Do you have a processor’s license?” And most of the time they’ll say no, it’s two grand for a hemp processing license, and I say, “Okay, if that’s the case, if I extract this for you and you want to possess this, legally you cannot possess your extract because it’s hot.” It’s a marijuana product essentially.
Tim Pickett: Because it’s gone through … It was legal before, you process it-
Kyle Egbert: And now it’s extracted and concentrated.
Tim Pickett: … and now it’s illegal for them to possess it.
Kyle Egbert: Exactly.
Tim Pickett: So what do they do?
Kyle Egbert: Well, most of them don’t buy a processor’s license, and so they have to find someone who-
Chris Holifield: To process it for them.
Kyle Egbert: … will either process it for them or where they can store it.
Tim Pickett: Oh, so you could process it and store it because you have a processor-
Kyle Egbert: Oh yeah. I can, I have the license.
Tim Pickett: So they could say, “Okay, you can store it until I have a contract to sell it to somebody else.” And then it can go from your lab to whoever-
Kyle Egbert: Someone else.
Tim Pickett: … to bottle it and put it into products and they can sell it.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: How often are you doing that?
Kyle Egbert: I haven’t.
Tim Pickett: Okay.
Kyle Egbert: Not one time.
Tim Pickett: Why?
Kyle Egbert: I have accepted jars from other processors because the processors want to get it out of their place, and farmers come to me in a frantic, trying to find a place for this. So, a lot of times I have accepted it to store it for them, but I have never had one of those individuals come to me and say, “Hey, I need this to go to this other processor because they’re going to put it in a product for me.”
Tim Pickett: So this is one of-
Kyle Egbert: This is one…
Tim Pickett: It seems like one of the big issues with-
Kyle Egbert: Oh yeah.
Tim Pickett: … hemp growing, hemp processing and the pathway to market.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, especially too because if you take a liter or a kilo of crude extract, in order to get it ready to be in a product itself, you’re looking at 1,500 to two grand in order to refine it that much to be product ready, because it’s got to go through all those different steps of distillation, winterization, distillation. Does it have pesticides in it? Well, if it does, that’s another grand because you got to get the pesticides out. If it doesn’t, well, we still have to get the THC out. You’re still looking at 1,200, 15 grand, or 1,500.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, 12 to 1,500.
Kyle Egbert: To get that THC out.
Tim Pickett: Can you do that? Can you get the THC out and give it back to them?
Kyle Egbert: Yes, I can do that, but farmers, a lot of them, don’t want to pay the price in order to get the THC removed.
Tim Pickett: Because at that point their crude is not as valuable. I mean, you may have paid more –
Kyle Egbert: Right. So for example, a broad spectrum product, a kilo of broad-spectrum once, two years ago, 20 grand, okay? Today, three.
Tim Pickett: Oh wow.
Kyle Egbert: And it costs them $2,500 to get to that point, so their profit margin is terrible at that point, less [crosstalk 00:23:24].
Tim Pickett: That’s besides the growing.
Kyle Egbert: Right.
Tim Pickett: That’s besides all, and the … I mean, cutting that stuff down is a lot of work.
Kyle Egbert: Most of the time, once you go through the economics to get it to that point, taking into consideration the growing, the extraction, the processing, most of the time they’re upside down.
Tim Pickett: What’s the answer? What’s the solution? Let them possess a 10%, a 4% THC product?
Kyle Egbert: I mean, I’m really excited about … Who was it, Rand Paul? He proposed new legislation to go from .3% to 1% as a hemp product. I mean, that’s awesome, but still.
Tim Pickett: Oh, that would be huge. I guess eventually we’ve got to have the markets mixed, right? We’ve got to have the .3% mixed with the high THC content, and we’ve got to be able to go to the, even if it is the dispensary, we’ve got to be able to go there and buy everything in between.
Kyle Egbert: That’s already happening.
Tim Pickett: At the dispensaries.
Chris Holifield: High percentage CBD, right?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah. Well, what’s happening is the processors, hemp processors, are taking extracts or they’re taking isolate and they’re chemically converting it to delta-9 or delta-8, and then that’s getting into the medical market.
Tim Pickett: Oh, whoa, okay. You can take a crude hemp product and you can convert it into a higher THC product?
Kyle Egbert: Yes.
Tim Pickett: I mean, do you have a YouTube video on how to do this?
Kyle Egbert: No. Those are proprietary methods.
Tim Pickett: Right, but I’ve heard of this before.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: This is something I’ve heard of, and if I’m right is it the CBG is the golden ticket to get it over there?
Kyle Egbert: No.
Tim Pickett: Or you can take CBD and make it into THC.
Kyle Egbert: CBD is typically what people are using-
Tim Pickett: To convert into a high-
Kyle Egbert: … to convert into delta-9 and delta-8 and that is happening right now in Utah, and there are products out there that were sourced from CBD, that are high THC products that were originally sourced from CBD.
Tim Pickett: And now they’re tested in the dispensaries.
Chris Holifield: Wild.
Tim Pickett: This is kind of wild, Chris.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Everybody we bring on here, we find out something new.
Tim Pickett: I know.
Chris Holifield: You know what I mean? I’m so grateful that we have this podcast to be able to learn really.
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Because I’m learning along with you guys, you know.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah. Oh yeah.
Tim Pickett: This is pretty cool. We’re getting the pieces, that’s what’s so cool. We’ve gotten a couple of other pieces and this is just another piece of the puzzle.
Kyle Egbert: Really what needs to happen is that professionals from the industry need to come together with legislators to educate the legislators of really what the heck is going on and what needs to change.
Tim Pickett: Right, like what reality looks like. We feel like this in the medical market too.
Kyle Egbert: Who was it last episode? Who was it last episode that you had on? Katie?
Chris Holifield: Katie, yeah.
Tim Pickett: Oh, Katie Barber, yeah.
Kyle Egbert: Really there just needs to be this large committee of industry professionals, regulators and legislators, and we need to sit down and we need to hash all this out in order to clear up what the heck is going on.
Chris Holifield: Well, then plus once they open it up to more testing and more research studies, because there’s not enough of that going on right now, it’s just people like yourself that are doing the little bits of stuff you’re doing.
Tim Pickett: Right, like you’re taking-
Chris Holifield: Imagine once that opens up.
Tim Pickett: Right, and you’re taking things from … You’ve had to learn this from scratch.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Which like Utah State, great example of an amazing agriculture school, lot of farming going on up there and teaching. One of the best schools in the nation, right? For agriculture and animal farming and that type of thing, right?
Kyle Egbert: Right, right.
Tim Pickett: Do they have a cannabis program up there?
Kyle Egbert: They do. So actually, are you familiar with Dr. Bruce Bugbee?
Tim Pickett: Uh-uh (negative).
Kyle Egbert: So, he typically is looking in a lot of stuff with NASA. He does a lot of research with agriculture in NASA in space and whatnot, but he took on … So it was about mid-year last year in 2000 … Well, no, it would’ve been in 2019 when the program started, but what they started doing is they started growing hemp. They were doing a lot of trump variety, anyway, but what they were looking at was how does light affect growth, how does light affect the cannabinoid concentration in the plant itself. What happens when we stress it? Nutrients, water, whatever. So, they were doing a lot of that, but medically they’re not looking at how are cannabinoids interacting in the body, what’s going on there.
Kyle Egbert: I do know that the University of Utah is doing studies. They’re looking at how to … There was one study, I was trying to get on board with it to be a subject, and they were looking at … I think they were doing 10 milligram doses of CBD with zero THC, so basically a one to one, and then the reverse, where it was 10 milligrams of THC and zero milligrams of CBD, and they were doing brain scans to try to look to see how those compounds were affecting signals in the brain. I do know that they’re doing periodic studies like that, and you can actually sign up to be a subject and go through that, whether or not you’re actually going to be getting THC, CBD. They’ll choose. You might be getting a placebo, but whatever, but they’re doing studies like that because they want to understand how is this affecting the brain, what kind of brain signals can we read through an MRI. I don’t know if they’re doing an MRI scan or a CAT scan, but they’re doing something.
Tim Pickett: So what products do you have other than the green cream?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: What products do you sell?
Kyle Egbert: I really just started our retail in December. I said, “You know what? Heck, we’re going to do this, we’re going to go for it.” So our very first product that we are putting out on the market, which we are still getting certified, is actually these vape carts. I’ll pass these to you guys.
Chris Holifield: So, I’m looking at some indica Purple Punch it says, Clean Leaf, ultra-pure broad-spectrum.
Kyle Egbert: Yep. One thing you’ll notice about that is the content or the concentration of cannabinoids is outlined right there on the front.
Tim Pickett: I know, this is pretty cool. This is something that I always love. I love it about Zion Medicinal, I like it about this. When you’re labeling out your cannabinoids it means something of a sophistication in your ability to produce a product, in my opinion.
Kyle Egbert: Right.
Tim Pickett: If you just put CBD and THC on there, that’s fine, but this is cool, CBD.
Kyle Egbert: So, one of the things that we’re really striving for is standardization. That’s a big thing for me, is that with each different batch that I produce it’s standardized and you’re not going to get batch variation, because that’s one of the things that bugs the consumer the most. They’ll take an edible one time, they’ll feel great, the next time they take it they didn’t feel anything.
Chris Holifield: It’s like, what happened?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, exactly.
Tim Pickett: It’s so true. This one has 500 milligrams of CBD, CBG 100 milligrams, CBC 25, CBN, CBDV, THCV 25. This is a pretty good broad-spectrum product.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: I mean, the fact that you’ve got 100 milligrams of CBG in here is pretty impressive.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Is this all hemp grown in Utah?
Kyle Egbert: So, that is we take it in our laboratory and we refine it down to the point where we have individual compounds that then we can make the product.
Tim Pickett: Okay, so this a-
Kyle Egbert: That’s how I’m making that.
Tim Pickett: But that’s all vape cartridges, right?
Kyle Egbert: No.
Tim Pickett: Like almost all. No? A recipe.
Kyle Egbert: No.
Tim Pickett: What I’m saying is it’s a recipe. You get these compounds, you put them in. That’s what-
Kyle Egbert: That’s what I’m doing.
Tim Pickett: … you’re doing because you want consistency.
Kyle Egbert: Yes.
Tim Pickett: I think that’s important.
Kyle Egbert: A lot of times you’ll go to a dispensary, you’ll go to a vape shop and you’ll see a product and it’ll say something like 500 milligrams total cannabinoids, and it’s very ambiguous and you don’t really know what you’re getting.
Chris Holifield: You’re like, “What does this even mean?” Right?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, exactly. A lot of times what companies, individuals, whomever is making that product, they’re just taking it to a certain point in the refinement process, saying, “That’s good enough, let’s put it in a cart and let’s go.” So, each cart that you’re going to get from that company, you’re probably going to have a different experience with, maybe it tastes like crap, maybe it doesn’t, who knows.
Tim Pickett: Well, you can just add a little terpenes.
Kyle Egbert: Well, yeah.
Tim Pickett: And then it’ll taste fine.
Kyle Egbert: Right, but what we’ve really tried to do is one, this is a pure product. When you look at a chromatogram, a chemical analysis, what you’re going to see is you’re going to see those cannabinoids, that’s it.
Tim Pickett: Cool.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: How about terpenes? You don’t have terpenes listed.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, I do, in Purple Punch.
Chris Holifield: But what the name is, the names of the terpenes, is that what you mean or the kinds of terpenes?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Okay, explain that. Teach me a little bit about-
Kyle Egbert: So this is Purple Punch genetic variety of terpenes. So this is when you’ve got, I don’t know, frosted sky or you’ve got Skywalker or something, those are genetic varieties of cannabis, they’re going to have a certain ratio of different terpenes.
Tim Pickett: Got it. So you have the terpene profile of Purple Punch.
Kyle Egbert: Yes.
Tim Pickett: Okay, that makes sense.
Kyle Egbert: Then if you want to see hey, what are the individual terpenes themselves, that’s when you go and you look at a CoA and you can see that chemical analysis.
Tim Pickett: Can you add and subtract terpenes as well?
Kyle Egbert: Sure.
Tim Pickett: Because you could essentially look up the profile of Purple Punch and make sure that you’re dialed in.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Right.
Kyle Egbert: Oh yeah. You can really manipulate it however you want. If I really wanted to, I could make a Clean Leaf kush and have it be a certain flavor essentially, if I wanted to. I don’t really have any interest in doing that, but yeah. Oh yeah, you can manipulate that product any way.
Chris Holifield: Man.
Tim Pickett: I don’t think people understand the complexity of cannabis at this point in history.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Right? We really have moved beyond drying it up, rolling it up and lighting a match.
Chris Holifield: Now, are you doing this all by yourself or do you got like employees or people? I mean, you’re not the one packaging, you got like an outside source [crosstalk 00:33:44].
Kyle Egbert: A lot of it’s me.
Chris Holifield: Okay. Oh, a lot of it is … Most of it is you.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, yep.
Chris Holifield: Wow.
Tim Pickett: What’s the plan?
Kyle Egbert: Well, I’m small.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Well, if you’re doing most of this yourself.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, I’m a small time. My own lab is small, my production line is small.
Chris Holifield: In your basement or what?
Kyle Egbert: Oh no. No, I have a location where I have to do everything, which our facility is actually … So, we’re licensed with Utah to process. We’re also CGMP compliant, we’re not certified but we’re compliant, meaning we follow all those standards. We’re also food grade certified in Utah. So our facility where we manufacture these products are done in a food facility, a food-
Tim Pickett: Food grade.
Kyle Egbert: … food grade facility, yeah.
Chris Holifield: That’s cool.
Tim Pickett: That is cool.
Kyle Egbert: That was a pain getting it to that point.
Tim Pickett: I’ll bet.
Kyle Egbert: Just putting up, I mean, even to the flipping ceiling tiles and what those had to be. Oh man, but yeah. Pretty much all the research and development I do. Product design, getting it to that point, what it’s going to look like, what are the cannabinoids, the flavor profile, everything like that.
Chris Holifield: Where do you see this in five years? I mean, would you like to get into more THC? Would you like to get into growing?
Kyle Egbert: Oh, I would love to go to medical.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Kyle Egbert: Oh yeah.
Chris Holifield: So you would like to eventually get into-
Kyle Egbert: So, I would love to see this build up here in Utah and be a household name. People know what Clean Leaf is, they trust it, they know that they’re going to get the same experience every single time, going back to that standardization of the product, but what I’d really like to do is I’d really like to become a marijuana processors and start to put these quality of products onto the market.
Tim Pickett: Onto the medical market.
Kyle Egbert: Onto the medical market.
Tim Pickett: What’s the next step for you to get there?
Kyle Egbert: Build Clean Leaf up.
Tim Pickett: So that the growers come to you and say …
Kyle Egbert: I mean, I know a lot of the medical growers and also the processors. Really, I mean, my biggest hurdle is $100,000 in licensing.
Tim Pickett: For the processing license.
Kyle Egbert: Just the license alone is 100 grand every year.
Tim Pickett: Are they restricted for processing or could you, if you had 100 grand, you could go out and you could get a license?
Kyle Egbert: So, the only license that they restrict is the cultivator’s license. What is it, eight?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, the cultivators and then the retail, right? So there’s 14 authorized retail licenses and there are eight authorized growers.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah. From my understanding, they do not restrict the amount of processors.
Tim Pickett: That’s my understanding too.
Kyle Egbert: Which I don’t know how to feel about that.
Chris Holifield: So who would be considered? Is like Boojum a processor, right? They’re like a processor.
Tim Pickett: Right.
Kyle Egbert: They have a processing license, yeah.
Chris Holifield: I’m trying to think of the people that have.
Kyle Egbert: Boojum, I believe Wasatch Extraction.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Kyle Egbert: Zion.
Tim Pickett: And then Zion has their own processing.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, a lot of the cultivators they actually also, in addition to their cultivation license, they’ve also gone through and gotten a processor’s license.
Tim Pickett: Which kind of it makes it an interesting risk for somebody like you, where you have Zion and Wholesome and they’re going to have their own processing.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Are they going to be able to keep up with their own processing? Are they going to want to white label other people’s hemp or convert some hemp over into some THC crude? All these calculations.
Kyle Egbert: A big hurdle for me, one, is the $100,000 to get the license, but then the availability of biomass. Am I going to have access to marijuana biomass in order to process, turn it into a product? Those are the big hurdles.
Tim Pickett: Because it’s too much money to take CBD and convert it over?
Kyle Egbert: Oh no, it’s pretty dang cheap.
Tim Pickett: So, I mean, you could essentially take any biomass.
Kyle Egbert: However, yes, I could, but the problem is, and a big reason of why you don’t see hemp products in the pharmacies is because in order for me to get this into a pharmacy, let’s just say this was a high THC cartridge, I made it in my facility, this would have to go through a cultivation license because of the MJ Freeway Platform. So, on the medical side of things everything is tracked from seed to sell. So, it goes in the ground, there’s a serial number that’s associated with it. It’s tracked in MJ Freeway. It comes time for harvest, again, it’s all being traced from seed through processing, through manufacturing, to consumer.
Tim Pickett: Okay. So let me see if I’ve got this straight. So if I have a farm and I have an acre of hemp that wasn’t specifically put in the ground in MJ Freeway, in the software, then I can’t inject that into your lab and put it in the dispensary because it could’ve came from anywhere.
Kyle Egbert: Exactly, and the only way that you can get around that is if you’re working with a cultivator that they want to work with you and-
Tim Pickett: And so they put the-
Kyle Egbert: … say, “Yeah. I’ll buy your biomass.” And then they can put it in through their system as … Well, we’ll go back to the THC from CBD. If I take CBD, chemically convert it into THC, I have to sell that as hemp waste. That is sold to a cultivator who can then put it in the system as we bought this from this company as hemp waste. There’s the chemical analysis that’s associated with it, whatever. Then they can take that, they can manufacture and do whatever they want with it, but they don’t have to tell the consumer that hey, this is how it got to you.
Tim Pickett: I see.
Kyle Egbert: See what I’m saying?
Tim Pickett: That’s kind of what we talked to Mike Rodriguez about with the smokable flower.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: That’s how a smokable hemp flower gets into the dispensaries and the pharmacies, is sold as..
Kyle Egbert: But are we seeing smokable flower, hemp?
Tim Pickett: I mean, I think there are some-
Chris Holifield: I haven’t seen any at any of the local dispensaries, no.
Tim Pickett: I’ve heard of some at Dragonfly.
Kyle Egbert: Okay.
Chris Holifield: I saw CBG but not CBD.
Tim Pickett: Yes, the Matterhorn. I think you can buy some Matterhorn.
Chris Holifield: Can you?
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Oh, can you?
Kyle Egbert: So it’s been really difficult to take hemp flower and go through all these hoops and get it onto the medical market.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I’m not sure there’s any money in it, but I know it’s being done.
Kyle Egbert: Hemp flower for an eighth is 20 bucks, something like that.
Chris Holifield: Sounds good to me.
Tim Pickett: I mean, if you can buy an eighth.
Chris Holifield: That’s what they should be selling it all for.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, right? Is what we were paying in high school.
Kyle Egbert: If I was doing that myself, I probably wouldn’t buy it because a lot of it isn’t being handled correctly. So you’re getting a lot of that terpene profile, you’re losing a lot of that along the way because it’s not being cured properly, it’s not being stored properly. The growers have a long way to go of learning how to do all of this.
Tim Pickett: This has been a fun conversation.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: I mean, do you have a family? Do you ever see them?
Kyle Egbert: No.
Tim Pickett: It seems like this can take a lot of your time.
Kyle Egbert: It does.
Chris Holifield: But you love it.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, I do love it. Had you asked me five years ago that I’d be in the cannabis industry, I probably would’ve laughed in your face, like yeah, whatever.
Tim Pickett: Were you in Rexburg at the time or down on BYU?
Kyle Egbert: Oh yeah, I was in Rexburg at the time.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. Before that you were at BYU, and no way you would say that.
Kyle Egbert: Right, yeah.
Tim Pickett: Oh, six years from now.
Chris Holifield: You don’t have to give names, but I bet you there’s a lot of pot smokers at Rexburg, I don’t care.
Kyle Egbert: Oh yeah. There’s drug busts up there quite frequently.
Chris Holifield: Same thing with BYU. I’m sure there’s some people down there that …
Kyle Egbert: But really when I moved down here to Utah and all of this, I mean, this all happened as I was transitioning from BYU Idaho to Utah State University, all this happened. I looked at it as a door of opportunity.
Tim Pickett: Oh, of course.
Kyle Egbert: To get into something that’s brand-new. I could really take it wherever I wanted to go. I mean, sky is the limit. So for me, I could’ve been stuck, working as an agronomist trying to sell fertilizer to a farmer or I could’ve been hired onto a big scale farm privately and been consulting that way, or I could determine my own fate by starting a small business and trying to build it up.
Chris Holifield: See, and the first one sounds kind of boring.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, I mean, at least it’s secure.
Chris Holifield: Well yeah, but I mean, what you’re doing is exciting, man.
Kyle Egbert: It is.
Tim Pickett: It is exciting.
Chris Holifield: And it’s groundbreaking.
Tim Pickett: And the opportunity is huge.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: The knowledge that you’re getting and the experience of the process, and learning it all, whether or not your company gets bought, or you join somebody else, or you do this yourself, like you say, the sky is really the limit.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: There is no question about it.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: So, do you modify the terpene profile at all?
Kyle Egbert: In that one, no, but if I wanted to, yes.
Tim Pickett: So from time to time you will.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Depending on if it lines up exactly with what you want.
Kyle Egbert: With what I want to do. Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Oh yeah, this is nice. This is very purple punchy to me.
Kyle Egbert: Oh yeah.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I like.
Chris Holifield: I don’t know if it’s just in my head or whatever, but I feel like it’s calmed me down a little bit.
Kyle Egbert: You should feel this.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, just kind of a little bit of like okay.
Kyle Egbert: I’ve spent 18 months in research and development to get to that.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, this is product testing. I think we should put this in, Chris-
Chris Holifield: Well okay, so we’re testing.
Tim Pickett: … because really we are testing a CBD product, we’re testing a hemp product. This isn’t something you would need a medical card for at all.
Kyle Egbert: Nope.
Chris Holifield: Yeah. So you have the indica Purple Punch as well.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I have the indica Purple Punch, and I’m familiar enough with Purple Punch that this does, it has that flavor.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Definitely have that flavor.
Kyle Egbert: Purple Punch is Granddaddy Purple and Grape Ape, it’s the genetic cross between those two.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, and I mean, it’s a strong indica type strain. It’s going to be very calming, can be a little heavy. Anything with gorilla in the name is going to be heavy, in my opinion.
Kyle Egbert: Right.
Tim Pickett: And the purples.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: So we tell patients purples, gorillas, hazes, they tend to be better for pain, they tend to be a little heavier. So when you’re looking for names … Now, and it was totally anecdotal because people will name something haze that’s really not, but in general.
Kyle Egbert: So, as you can see on our little card, it clearly says indica on it. So, we’re either going to label it sativa, hybrid, or indica. So, for the consumer, I mean, it should be understood that hey, an indica is more of a downer and I do an educational blog, just started it.
Chris Holifield: Where is that at?
Kyle Egbert: On our website.
Chris Holifield: Mycleanleaf.com.
Kyle Egbert: Not published yet, yeah.
Chris Holifield: Okay, yeah.
Kyle Egbert: We had it published.
Tim Pickett: So why don’t you send it to us and we’ll-
Chris Holifield: Actually, now that you say that.
Tim Pickett: … publish it on utahmarijuana.org.
Chris Holifield: I did try to go to mycleanleaf.com, there was nothing there yet.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah. So our domain was actually hosted by GoDaddy, and my wife’s cousin, he convinced me to change it over to another platform.
Chris Holifield: HostGator.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah. So since we’re switching platforms right now, we essentially had to rebuild the website.
Tim Pickett: Right.
Kyle Egbert: And I wasn’t quite ready to release. I was trying so hard this week so that I could release it from this conversation.
Chris Holifield: This will go up next week.
Kyle Egbert: Next week, so by next week it should be up. Yeah, yeah.
Tim Pickett: And we can put a link on the podcast, at utahmarijuana.org.
Kyle Egbert: So, my first blog post actually is titled What Do I Do If My Cart Crystallizes? That’s my very first blog post. These are very prone to crystallization due to the nature of their purity, because they’re so pure, so concentrated it’ll crystallize. So anyway, I put up a blog post. What do you do if your cart crystallizes? It’s not an indication of a defective product. It’s actually an indication of purity, and there is three different methods you can do at home to get it back into a liquified state.
Tim Pickett: Like the blow dryer?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, a blow dryer is not very good because it doesn’t get hot enough. So actually, I tell people hey, if you’ve got 15 bucks go to Harbor Freight and get a heat gun.
Tim Pickett: That’s a good idea.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, they can go up there, it’s 1,000 watts, 15 bucks, two settings. I think the first setting goes to 700 degrees Fahrenheit, the other one goes to a 1,000 degrees. Just blow torch it essentially. The other method, which I prefer and I prefer that people use, is actually taking a mug, filling it halfway up with water, throw it in the microwave, heat it up until it’s practically boiling. Take your cart, put it in a ziplock baggie, make sure all the air is out, and then dunk it into that water for a minute and it’ll –
Tim Pickett: Sous vide.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, it’s a sous vide.
Tim Pickett: Sous vide your cart.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, exactly.
Tim Pickett: That’s a great idea actually.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, and it’s actually a lot of people have seen that and they said, “Hey, I have this other cart, not from you, someone else.”
Tim Pickett: Oh, sure.
Kyle Egbert: “I thought it was junk, I was ready to throw it away. I saw your post and I went and did it, and my cart is totally great. I can use it, I can get the last of it out.”
Tim Pickett: And you can learn a thing or two on Utah in the Weeds.
Chris Holifield: And then eventually when your website is up. I mean, are you on Facebook? Can our people can at least connect with you through Facebook too, Instagram too?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, we’re on Facebook, we’re on Instagram. I mean, again, it’s pretty much me that’s managing it.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, be patient.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, be patient. I’ve got a lot. I’m torn in a million different directions all the time, but I finally got to a point where we have these. One thing you’ll notice on those, so again, going back to it, clearly states what the concentration is of the cannabinoids, what you’re getting in this product. The other thing is on the back you see all those red circles. So, it doesn’t contain vitamin E, or alpha-tocopheryl acetate, MCT oil, PG, PG or VG, or lecithin, and those are common ingredients that are cut into cartridges to help them stabilize essentially. Are you guys familiar with EVALI?
Chris Holifield: I’m not, no.
Kyle Egbert: Or Exogenous lipoidal pneumonia?
Tim Pickett: No.
Kyle Egbert: Oh, come on, guys.
Chris Holifield: I would expect Tim would be.
Kyle Egbert: Before COVID.
Chris Holifield: He’s the medical guy.
Tim Pickett: I mean, are you kidding me?
Kyle Egbert: Before COVID.
Tim Pickett: We are all three of us too busy for this stuff.
Kyle Egbert: So before COVID, what was there?
Tim Pickett: Well there was the, before-
Kyle Egbert: There was the vaping.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, there was the vape lung, there was vape lung.
Kyle Egbert: Yes, and that is because-
Tim Pickett: Yeah, and I do have an associate up at the University of Utah who wrote some articles about it.
Kyle Egbert: Yes. So, I have spent many hours digging through the research, trying to find what they know about EVALI or exogenous lipoid pneumonia.
Tim Pickett: Oh yes, okay, got it. Now I’m following you.
Kyle Egbert: These ingredients that I’ve listed here, crossed out, they have found a connection between these ingredients, these cutting agents and vaping and the lipoidal pneumonia. So, that’s one thing as a consumer you really need to have that awareness of your product, of what is actually in your cartridge because you don’t want to end up in the hospital.
Tim Pickett: No, absolutely no.
Kyle Egbert: It is never a good thing to vape a cart that has MCT oil in it because what you’re doing is you’re vaporizing those fat globules, those are going down into your lungs and could potentially lead to EVALI.
Chris Holifield: They’ve sold me carts at dispensaries here with MCT oil.
Kyle Egbert: Yes, they have.
Tim Pickett: MCT oil, this is a controversial topic that Kyle has brought up.
Chris Holifield: He said that and I was like, “Wait a minute here.”
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, yeah.
Tim Pickett: And I’m going to say-
Chris Holifield: So is that unhealthy for you then?
Tim Pickett: … while I appreciate the opinion, and I think that this is a discussion that we could have, we could really dig into, I would want to have the discussion with the alternative, right?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Because there are some really bad cutting agents compared to MCT as well.
Kyle Egbert: Yes, right, there are.
Tim Pickett: Right?
Kyle Egbert: Especially vitamin E. That’s a huge one.
Tim Pickett: We eliminated vitamin E in order to kind of go to MCT oil.
Chris Holifield: So what’s the best then?
Tim Pickett: There’s always this debate on is the risk associated with the product equal to eliminating it or justify eliminating it, or using it instead of, what’s your alternative? So now, if you want to go all the way, okay, let’s eliminate MCT.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, and that’s what I did. I just said look, from what I have found, these are products that are associated with EVALI or with exogenous lipoid pneumonia.
Tim Pickett: So let’s stay away from them altogether.
Kyle Egbert: I said, “Let’s stay away from them. I don’t want that liability.”
Tim Pickett: Well, I commend you.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: I mean, this has been super cool. I mean, you’ve brought the crystals. We’ve got the cream, we’ve got these vape carts. We’ve learned a ton about extraction.
Chris Holifield: We haven’t even got into he’s a patient too.
Tim Pickett: Oh yeah, we haven’t even gotten into that he’s a patient.
Kyle Egbert: My card actually expired, I have to renew it.
Tim Pickett: Oh well, you are in the right place.
Kyle Egbert: But what I was saying is, so when I was living up in Idaho, when I was in Rexburg I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia, which is essentially a diagnosis of exclusion. UCLA, and I think it’s the University of Michigan I want to say, they partnered and they came up with a blood test in order to provide a diagnosis of fibromyalgia. Well, I ended up doing it and the way that they mark it is from a zero to 100. If your score is higher than I think it was 60, 50 or 60, then essentially you have fibromyalgia. I think mine was like 80 something. So they were like, “Yeah, you’ve got fibromyalgia.” So, that chronic pain is a big reason of what guided me into getting into the cannabis industry. I wanted to be able to find relief for myself but I wanted to be able to provide products to people that were affordable, that were clean, that were standardized, and that they could find relief in. That’s really what motivated me to get into this industry.
Chris Holifield: That’s awesome.
Tim Pickett: That’s really cool.
Chris Holifield: Well, anything else? I mean, anything else you want to ask him or anything else you want to talk to him about? Anything else you want?
Tim Pickett: We should bring you back.
Chris Holifield: We could be here all day.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I know, and I think that we ought to bring you back because I’m interested to see how this goes after the legislative session in the cannabinoid. They’re meeting, things will change, they’ll tweak, and so it’ll be a good thing to bring you back and see what changes have been made over time.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: And frankly how you’re doing. How the education is going, how the master’s program is going.
Kyle Egbert: So I actually took a long-term leave of absence on the master’s side in order to focus on this and get it up and running.
Tim Pickett: Cool.
Kyle Egbert: So I did a full year, did my field work, my research, and then put it on pause. So I still have my dissertation and I have to still write my thesis and everything, but for now this is where I’m at, this is my focus.
Tim Pickett: That’s very cool.
Chris Holifield: That’s awesome. So mycleanleaf.com is your website.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: My Clean Leaf on Facebook, Instagram.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: People go connect with him there.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Awesome.
Tim Pickett: Absolutely. Awesome. Well, you can get ahold of me at utahmarijuana.org and we’ll have this podcast up, utahmarijuana.org/podcast, and we’ll have a link hopefully to your blog article.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: That’s the best place to get ahold of me. How about you, Chris?
Chris Holifield: And then you can listen to my other podcast, I am Salt Lake Podcast, iamsaltlake.com. Go listen to it. I did want to mention though, let me give our voicemail number here just one more time because I want people to call it up. If you ever have questions for Tim or myself or about the podcast or anything, we want to hear from you. You can even shoot it a text if you want. Nobody will ever pick this number up. (385) 215-9557, so give that a call, leave a voicemail.
Tim Pickett: All right everybody, be safe out there.
Chris Holifield: Maybe we’ll play it on the podcast.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, be safe out there.
Chris Holifield: All right.
We are quite enthusiastic about the progress Utah has made in delivering Medical Marijuana to patients in need. There is still much to do. There’s also a lot more to learn. As a potential patient yourself, we want you to have as much information as you can. To that end, this post will discuss the basics of Utah’s Compassionate Use Board (CUB).
You might not realize it, but our Medical Cannabis laws are not as draconian as they might seem. Our state legislators have worked awfully hard to accommodate the needs of patients while addressing concerns posed by the medical community. They are still working to improve things. In fact, new legislation now being considered might make it easier to obtain Medical Marijuana without going through the CUB.
At any rate, the CUB exists to help minors and those whose medical conditions are not on the list of qualified conditions gain access to Medical Cannabis when appropriate. The Board could end up being your best friend should you need to call on them at any point in the future.
The first thing to know about the Compassionate Use Board is likely the most important. The Board is not made up of bureaucrats and politicians. Instead, it’s “seven qualified medical providers who have been appointed by the executive director of the Utah Department of Health,” according to the state’s Medical Cannabis website.
This is good news. Board members are all medical professionals. They are the ones we should be asking to make decisions about compassionate use. We hope that all current and future Board members have been educated about cannabis and the human cannabinoid system, the same way QMPs and cannabis pharmacists have been.
Next up, the CUB’s responsibilities are narrow and well-defined. Their main function is to review petitions for compassionate Medical Marijuana use. The petitions come from:
The CUB can approve petitions based on two circumstances:
It’s our understanding that the CUB has rejected very few of the petitions they have reviewed so far. Most get approved. When rejections do occur, it is mainly because of a lack of information from the applicant.
One of the more attractive aspects of petitioning the Board is that you do not have to meet with them in person. In fact, neither you nor your QMP have any direct contact with Board members. Rather, you submit your petition along with a QMP Recommendation Letter for the board to review at its next meeting. The letter should include all of the information your doctor deems relevant.
Board meetings are private meetings, meaning no one other than Board members are allowed to be present. All petition information is kept strictly confidential. After reviewing your information among themselves, the Board makes a determination of approval. That’s about it.
Utah’s Compassionate Use Board exists to help people obtain Medical Cannabis under unusual circumstances. We recommend you first try to get a Medical Marijuana Card through your QMP and have them help you decide if Board assistance is needed.
The Medical Cannabis scene in Utah is about so much more than legislation, growers, and dispensaries. It’s mainly about patients and their needs. Tim and Chris drive that point home in episode 42 of Utah in the Weeds as they speak with guest and UTTHC patient Chelsea Porter.
Porter is a young professional who deals with depression and other mental health issues. [03:42] Her introduction to marijuana was via recreational use in California and Spain. She used the drug to self-medicate before she even realized that’s what she was doing. When the opportunity for Prop 2 in Utah came along, Porter advocated for it. [15:26]
During the discussion, the three talked about a range of topics, including how THC and CBD Medical Cannabis products help Porter deal with her mental health issues. [12:29] Porter spoke of a support system that includes her parents, friends, and coworkers. She also talked about how the Medical Cannabis community being so open about what they do is finally beginning to destigmatize the drug.
Like so many other patients, Porter is still figuring out what works best for her. She has a daily routine that she tracks with a journal. [18:39] As she learns more, she is adjusting her routine accordingly. However, cost is an issue. Bringing that up got Tim and Chris talking about how Medical Marijuana is pretty expensive in Utah. The general hope is that prices come down. [24:18]
One of the more compelling aspects to this particular episode is its underlying theme that Medical Cannabis patients are similar in some ways but quite different in others. [25:41] What works for one doesn’t necessarily work for everyone else. Tim, Chris, and Chelsea agreed among themselves that patients should be allowed to try different things in search of whatever works best for them.
Tim Pickett: I think we’re going to be Episode 42 with Chelsea.
Chris: Yep, 42. So this is-
Tim Pickett: Episode 42.
Chris: Of Utah in the Weeds.
Tim Pickett: Yes. I’m Tim Pickett with my friend and co-host of 2021.
Chris: How you doing, Tim?
Tim Pickett: I’m doing great, Chris. How are you?
Chris: Well, I’m doing great. I’m doing great. But I’m excited for the episode today. I like talking to patients. Tim, what are your thoughts on some of these patients we’ve talked to? I think it’s been really, really informative to bring them on, hear their stories and find out how similar we are as people and the things we go through are so similar. It’s been helpful to relate a little bit. I don’t know what your thoughts are.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. I totally agree. I think everybody has a different story and we are building that community that we talked about. That cannabis community in Utah by talking to real patients and not only just people who are involved in the industry and growing and things like that, but the real people, the real end users, because that’s why the program was legalized.
Chris: Why it was put together.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. Plus de-stigmatizing the plant requires people to use it and be able to talk about it and the patients are the best for that. So I’m excited. We have Chelsea Porter here today. Chelsea is a patient of ours in Utah. Welcome Chelsea.
Chelsea Porter: Hi. How are you guys?
Chris: We’re doing good, we’re doing good. We’re excited to get to know you and get to know your story. I mean, it’s funny, right? You talk about de-stigmatizing it, Tim, you look at Chelsea and you wouldn’t think, “Oh, she’s a cannabis user.” She doesn’t fit the stereotype from what I can see. So, it’s…
Tim Pickett: No, not at all.
Chelsea Porter: What stereotype do I fit?
Chris: I don’t know, I don’t know. I’m just trying to-
Tim Pickett: You know, we’re looking at you through the computer screen too-
Chris: Yeah. I don’t know. Maybe that wasn’t even a fair thing to say, but it was just people are so quick to judge who uses cannabis, dirt bags or I don’t know.
Chelsea Porter: Yeah. I think it’s pretty similar to tattoos. So, you look at people one way that have tattoos and ever-changing these days. Yeah, I never really even thought of myself as a patient, even when I was advocating for Prop 2 to pass. But, such is life, things happen. My reason for using it is for mental health reasons.
Tim Pickett: And you’re from here, yeah?
Chelsea Porter: I am. Yeah. I grew up, born and raised in West Point, Utah.
Tim Pickett: Oh wow. Yeah. Right here.
Chelsea Porter: Yes.
Tim Pickett: West Point, there’s wasn’t a ton of cannabis users there, I bet, when you were growing up.
Chelsea Porter: Only the hood rats. Only the kids that were up to no good. And every once in a while you’d hear about that one kid that grew it and got caught, but.
Chris: The rumor that always went around to scare all the other kids so they wouldn’t grow it, right?
Chelsea Porter: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris: It’s kinda like “oh yeah, scare ‘em!”
Chelsea Porter: We got our first streetlight, stoplight, when I was in high school, so it was just churches out there. It was nothing but churches and houses.
Tim Pickett: Churches, houses, no stoplights.
Chris: So who introduced you to cannabis then, Chelsea? I mean, was it for fun or for medicine that you got introduced to it at first?
Chelsea Porter: Yeah, so I left Davis County and went to Los Angeles when I was 18 for school. I went to the Fashion Institute out there and obviously drug use was at my school and I used it recreationally there and then more so as I was then living in Spain for a year as an au pair and it was more common to use there recreationally. Then it wasn’t until I came home some things had happened in life that gave me some PTSD and I was dealing with those sorts of undiagnosed symptoms actually and what I thought was just anxiety. So I was self-treating that way, but I was going to California and picking it up. I was going to Colorado or finding it from anyone who had a hookup here. I didn’t necessarily have one myself.
Chelsea Porter: Yeah, that’s how I started using it and just self-medicating essentially. And then when Prop 2 passed and things started opening up this year, that’s when I started looking into actually doing things legally.
Tim Pickett: When did you realize you were using it to… Was there a time when you started to realize, “Wait, I feel better. I’m not just using this recreationally.” Like, “I feel better when I use this,” or “My PTSD is not triggered.” Or did you have a —
Chelsea Porter: Yeah, so.
Tim Pickett: … a definitive moment?
Chelsea Porter: Yeah, one of the things that happened to me was I would have really vivid nightmares, night terrors. So I used it at first to just go to sleep. I guess people who listen, maybe I’m different, but usually when I first started using weed it was like a nap. You just expected a nap to happen right after you use it.
Chris: Oh, yeah.
Chelsea Porter: You don’t really know how to handle the heaviness of your body or be functioning. So I would use it as a sleep aid and then it got to the point where… So I had a really great roommate and she would essentially carry me up to my bedroom from the couch. I’d come home from work, where I was busy and enjoying the distraction, come home and not really be able to sit with my thoughts and feelings and things and so I would just essentially sedate myself with my vape pen. So that’s when I knew, I’m like, “Oh, okay. This is me avoiding things that need to be addressed instead of just going out and having fun.”
Chris: What do your family and friends, I mean, are they pretty supportive of your cannabis use or is it just kind of quiet or how’s that working out?
Chelsea Porter: So, it’s been an interesting path. I haven’t talked to everyone about it. I only told my mom late last year that I was using it because my parents are both really active in the church, the Mormon church. So I didn’t know how they would feel about it. I knew my dad had partaken in the ’70s, but I didn’t know to what extent or anything. So I knew that he may think that’s the way I’m using it solely and have some stigma tied to it in his brain, as well as with my mom.
Chelsea Porter: My friends were pretty aware as some of them were people I was doing it with recreationally. But I’ve been a lot more open about just my life in general because right before I started self-medicating to the point where I was just on the couch, I was actually put into UNI for my mental health. That’s the mental hospital at the University of Utah here.
Chelsea Porter: I knew that that was when I was going to stop faking how I felt and telling people lies and things like that and if they couldn’t handle where I was, then they didn’t need to be in my team. Not everyone can handle it and that’s okay, but I needed people that were going to be able to do whatever I needed them to do for me so that I could have that support so I wasn’t suicidal anymore. So that I’ve just been straightforward, I’m like, “This is what helps me.” I’m back on Zoloft too, which helps in a different aspect. I do feel like marijuana just gives me that, you guys have talked about it in a few episodes too, just kind of like that bliss feeling.
Chris: Sure.
Chelsea Porter: So it’s almost like a break from the constant sadness that I feel, even though things are going well in life. I just have clinical depression and so I really enjoy when I’m able to just sit, even in my own apartment, hang out with my dog in quarantine and feel uplifted and good instead of like, “Oh, this sucks, but I don’t know why.”
Tim Pickett: Chelsea, I’ve read your article. Okay.
Chelsea Porter: Which article?
Tim Pickett: Love What Matters,-
Chelsea Porter: Okay, yeah.
Tim Pickett: … this is you, right?
Chelsea Porter: This is me.
Tim Pickett: You want to talk about this a little bit? This is a bit like it’s kind of a big deal. It’s not that you’re not forthcoming about this. Talk to me a little bit about this article. Do you want to talk about it?
Chelsea Porter: Yeah, I do. Sorry, I’m getting emotional. So I was born with one finger on my left hand. I’m so sorry. Was not expecting this to be this heavy right off the bat. So I was born with one finger on my left hand, which I’ve come to call it my limb difference. I grew up calling it a deformity and a disability, a handicap, all those things.
Chelsea Porter: I was blessed with the family I have and the people around me that stuck up for me when things got tough because there’s a lot of… Stop crying. There’s a lot of really good people out in the world that really make up for the few crappy ones that you come in contact with. I think that article has such an emotional tie to me because it’s basically just me. The whole of like my worst moments in life in one article, but so many great things have happened.
Chelsea Porter: I’m part of a community now, thanks to social media allowing me to get in contact with others who have limb differences, who just know what it’s like to go through the day-to-day struggles of not being able to open your bag of cereal or screwing open the milk. It’s just the little things like that that can pile up, especially on a bad day and just kind of break your back.
Chelsea Porter: Depression has run in my family though so I’ve just had that in my genetics. Then it’s the trials that go along with living with a limb difference and just everyone has issues. We all go through hard times, but I think my limb difference definitely played a big part in my mental health as an adult and as a child.
Tim Pickett: I’m sure it played a role the whole time, right? There’s these functional things that you talk about, opening the jar or things like that. But that’s just a piece because then you have to leave home as a child. Go to school, that’s a whole other… The social aspect of life with a limb difference like yours is-
Chelsea Porter: Yes.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, everybody has their challenges. Not everybody is born with a limb difference. So don’t discount that.
Chelsea Porter: Okay. Yeah. I do think I am very fortunate though to have been born with it instead of lost my other digits in an accident. I am grateful for that aspect, but you’re right. I shouldn’t discount my difference. I shouldn’t do that.
Tim Pickett: Well, like I have my struggles, but I don’t have yours.
Chelsea Porter: Right.
Tim Pickett: So, this is really a cannabis podcast, but this is such a huge part of how you got involved. I think I would imagine in this cannabis world from the… Here’s the real life of our podcasting, you can hear my dog in the background probably. This cannabis world, did you-
Chelsea Porter: How do we tie them together?
Tim Pickett: Yeah. How do you tie these two things together?
Chelsea Porter: I said this to a coworker. She says, “You should say that in the podcast.” Because it was unintentional, but it goes hand in hand to me, my mental health, my limb difference and the medicine I take to make my life good. Because I have mental health issues, because some of those stem from being born with a limb difference and actively being an advocate for limb differences, it will impact my mental health and the things that come up with that. However, if it wasn’t for cannabis, I wouldn’t be dealing as well as I am today.
Tim Pickett: That’s a big statement, I think, for people to hear because cannabis has been kept from us for so long as a medicine, right? As a legitimate medicine. So here’s somebody who grows up here in Utah. Is born with a limb difference. Goes through traumatic events in your late teens, early 20s. Thinks about all kinds of really terrible things to do to yourself, frankly, and yet finds a natural, a plant-based medicine, that’s relatively safe.
Chelsea Porter: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: And you can use it and feel better.
Chelsea Porter: Not only that, it’s helped me get out of a really terrible eating disorder because of the munchie aspects that comes from cannabis.
Chris: Wait, how did it help? It helped you? It seems like it would make you want to eat more of the food there.
Chelsea Porter: So, my eating disorder was not eating.
Chris: Oh, not eating.
Chelsea Porter: Yeah. So, when I’d get extra sad or extra anxious, my appetite would go away and then I just was malnourished. It gives you just like that guilt-free, you don’t even remember until you see all the wrappers the next morning, the damage you did.
Chelsea Porter: No, it helps me, like whenever I was like, “Hey, you don’t want to eat, but you got to and you don’t want to make yourself feel sick.” So we just need a little bit of cannabis so that we can go eat that big meal and feel good. Or it’s not even a big, it seemed like a big meal. It was just sort of regular-sized meal.
Tim Pickett: Chris, did you know this, that on average cannabis users are thinner? They have a lower BMI than non-cannabis users.
Chris: Really?
Tim Pickett: Meaning, yeah. We’re not fat people. We don’t overeat. It’s a weird thing I like to bring up when people are really worried about eating a lot. It works, it’s so good for nausea and for getting the munchies and certain strains are better than others for adding that too. But, in general, it doesn’t tend to make people gain weight unless it’s something on your mind or it’s something that you’re using cannabis for.
Chelsea Porter: Right.
Tim Pickett: There’s a little Tim’s tidbits right there. Chelsea, what do you do now? Were you involved in Prop 2?
Chelsea Porter: Yeah. I mean, I, at least, advocated for it. I voted for it. Talked about it very vocally on all my social media platforms. I mean, that’s just how I was raised, was encouraged to advocate for those things you believe in. But yeah, I would like to think that I had a part in passing that law.
Chris: Did you think it would pass in Utah? I mean, I didn’t. I didn’t think Utah would ever have medical cannabis.
Chelsea Porter: I definitely was surprised because, I mean, we’re all hopeful, right? But then, you’re like, “Well, they’re going to do, what they’re going to do.” That episode you guys have with Stormy Simon who talks about how like, why didn’t we just vote on the edited version of the bill? That would have been fair.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. It doesn’t totally seem fair. What changes would you like to see now, Chelsea?
Chelsea Porter: I would like to see more conditions on the list. I think it shouldn’t just be to things that other people have deemed severe enough. I’ve gone through that on my own trying to get a prosthesis. Why are people with two fully functioning hands trying to build me a hand that they think will be best? You know what I mean? They have no idea what it’s like living my life and why are people who are claiming to be so mentally stable resisting medicine that is proven to help people with X, Y and Z? Why don’t they get it?
Chris: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: You make a very good argument there. Like you guys, you have no idea if cannabis will help me. Why do you get to decide?
Chris: Yeah, why do they?
Chelsea Porter: And that’s the thing we’re learning about it, is that it’s impacting everyone so differently so why not give that person the option to see if it will help them?
Chris: I couldn’t agree more.
Tim Pickett: I think Chris and I, we’re fans of that right there. I totally agree with that. Here is a relatively safe substance that you can try and if it works okay, then that’s fine. And it doesn’t work for everybody. I’m sure you could come up with a couple of times when or a couple of scenarios when you wouldn’t want to take cannabis.
Chris: Isn’t that what they do though with prescriptions? It’s like, “Here, take this. Let’s see if this works. Let’s see if this works.” Right, like-
Tim Pickett: It’s exactly what they do.
Chelsea Porter: But then it comes with a whole 30 second commercial of things that are going to happen to you that are really bad.
Chris: Yeah. But nobody says anything about those things, right?
Tim Pickett: No. Yeah, not at all. So, what’s your favorite? What do you use now for… What’s your regimen? What do you use, Chelsea?
Chris: What’s your setup?
Tim Pickett: What’s your setup?
Chelsea Porter: It kind of varies.
Tim Pickett: What do we ask? Chris, is that it? What’s your setup?
Chris: I don’t know, it sounded good.
Chelsea Porter: What’s your concoction?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, what’s your concoction?
Chelsea Porter: It just depends on where I’m at financially because it is quite expensive. I feel like it ebbs and flows, what I’m treating with things that are going on in my life. I use it every single night to keep the night terrors away. When I stopped using it for a period that’s when they started to come back.
Chelsea Porter: I worked retail during COVID during holidays. So, I came home a few days just completely busted mentally and just feeling like, “I don’t know how I’m going to go back to work tomorrow.” It’s just crazy working at a mall during all of this and as a manager as well and so you have that responsibility of a lot of people and that weighs on you mentally. Being away from family over holidays was a lot.
Chelsea Porter: So, what I’m using now is depending on how bad I’m feeling. Edibles tend to do a better trick for me just because it’s a little bit stronger and lasts a little bit longer. Sometimes I’ll pair that with my vape pen because I need a little bit more instant help than the hour and a half to two hours it takes for that edible to kick in. Then I have my tincture that I use every day before I go to work, just because it’s very low in THC, but high in CBD. It just helps me get out of bed, get showered, go to work, and do the things that we got to do to be functioning adults.
Tim Pickett: How did you come to this regimen? How long did it take you to decide, “Okay, this is what I do.”
Chelsea Porter: It was pretty quick, just because I already had one because-
Tim Pickett: Mm-hmm (affirmative), and you already knew how to use cannabis in general?
Chelsea Porter: Yeah. I will say the biggest difference I found was that the products I’m getting from the dispensaries here, because it’s medicinal versus recreational dispensaries out in Southern California, for example, I just have higher CBD in my stuff now and I really can see the impact from that instead of it just being kind of like a mental escape.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. You’re talking about using high dose CBD to lower dose THC.
Chelsea Porter: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Especially when you talk about a morning dose. That seems to work better for you in general. We’ve talked about this before, but it seems to be CBD, the more psychological the issue, the more CBD helps.
Chris: Really?
Tim Pickett: With THC. The more physical, this is totally anecdotal, but it really simplifies things to start with, I think. Is the more physical the ailment, the more THC is your go-to. The more mental your ailment, the more CBD you need to mix in just because of the way CBD kind of works as the buffer, as a rule of thumb.
Tim Pickett: So, I guess, I’m not super surprised. Sometimes I’m surprised when people say things that follow what I think and follow kind of the book and the evidence. I’m like, “Oh wow, that’s in the book,” but it shouldn’t surprise us, I guess. Do you have a favorite strain?
Chelsea Porter: No. I’m going to be so honest that it’s probably going to be embarrassing when this comes out, but I couldn’t really tell you what a strain is. I am still so, so new to actually educating myself on the things I’m using instead of just getting my hands on whatever I can. But I feel like I learn so much when I’m at the dispensary at the clinic, but that I don’t quite know what information to trust on the internet. If it’s not from you guys’ websites.
Chelsea Porter: Quite frankly, I wish I had more money to spend in the dispensaries to figure out what would work best for me because I know there’s like, I go to WholesomeCo in Bountiful, I’ve never been to any other dispensaries. I just instantly felt welcomed and loved there and so I just have continued to go there.
Chelsea Porter: I know there’s a flower that helps with PTSD symptoms. But then I’ve also been looking into those vaporizers, because I’d like to get more towards those instead of the vape pens. Because I could get more of those medical properties from the plant at the different temperatures and doing it that way versus, I feel like the high temperatures of the pens almost burn the back of my throat or I can feel it in my lungs later in the day, so just trying to get to a better way of breaking down the plant to help me in a better way.
Chelsea Porter: Honestly, listening to the podcast has helped educate me a ton and just the more I go to the dispensary. But then again, you have to pay cash there and if you just don’t have it in your bank account, you have to use what you have at home and just make things work.
Chris: I get that. I’ve been there, yeah.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I totally get it. It’s like I have no response to that. I’m sorry.
Chelsea Porter: It’s okay.
Tim Pickett: It is. It’s expensive. And a vaporizer, a good vaporizer, you’ll love listening to Valerie from last week’s episode talk a lot about vaporizers and what types and why the different temperatures. And you’re right, I say treat the dispensary more like a convenience store, more like a Maverick than a Costco. You don’t go buy something that’s… Go buy a little bit and then try it out and see if you like it. Keep a journal.
Chris: That’s a good idea.
Chelsea Porter: Yeah.
Chris: It’s a good idea. Everybody should be keeping a journal for this stuff.
Chelsea Porter: I’ve been keeping a journal with the tinctures.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. A journal with the tinctures?
Chelsea Porter: Yeah. Instead of, but that’s only because I am completely gone by the time I’m done with my pen or an edible. But the tincture, I can track because I’m going to work and I’m up and I’m functioning. Whereas the pen and the edibles are more for like sedation and severe calming. So I know that those are going to do what they need to do, but I need to monitor the dosage and that for the tincture for me to go to work. Can’t be walking into work running a team high, you know?
Chris: Nah.
Tim Pickett: No. I mean, you could. Some people do it. Maybe you could run a country. This is so fascinating, Chris.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Because I love the different people that we get to talk to.
Chris: It’s interesting because they all have a difference, but then, like I said in the beginning of this, we all have similarities.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. So with Chelsea, I mean, I’m fascinated because you’re not a newbie, right? You know what you’re doing. Obviously you don’t need to know the names of the strains. You just need to have access to good products at a reasonable price, obviously.
Chelsea Porter: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: And that’s now what you get. It sounds like you really like the consistency of being able to go to Wholesome and get the same thing every time. Know what you’re getting.
Chelsea Porter: And the staff there is just so friendly. I think that’s a huge part of the whole experience. I even said it on a video for you guys’ Instagram. I was walking into some place similar to a place that you’d walk into maybe on base. With people with button up business shirts and slacks and I was going to have to prove why I have PTSD and need marijuana to get me through the night. That’s what I was expecting and I walked in with open arms, diversity and just casual people who are there to openly discuss mental health without any stigma. “What can we do to help you? Here’s how you do it.” They walk you through the process and then you go to the dispensary. It’s guarded with guards and it’s kind of intimidating. Those guards are the nicest people I’ve ever met. And everyone just was so kind walking you in because you look like you’ve never been in one before, like you don’t know how it’s going, where to go. The first three times I forgot I needed to get money out for cash-
Tim Pickett: Do they have an ATM there?
Chelsea Porter: They do.
Tim Pickett: I think they do.
Chelsea Porter: Mm-hmm (affirmative). They would be like, “You can bring your dog in.” And I’m like, “Nah, I’ll just get my stuff.” It’s so nice. They’re so nice there. It’s almost like every time I go back to get my medicine, I get to see my friends. Maybe they don’t feel the same way that I do.
Chris: No, Wholesome’s great. Wholesome’s great. They do have great people. Great location.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, absolutely.
Chris: What would you tell somebody that say is listening to this podcast, maybe they’re on the fence of trying medical cannabis, trying it out, but they’re kind of not sure. What would you tell them? Do you have any words of wisdom or advice or anything, Chelsea?
Chelsea Porter: You’re not alone. I think lots of groups of people need to be told they’re not alone. There’s always people out there that you could talk to that have been in a similar situation as you. It’s kind of a nerve-racking thing.
Chelsea Porter: We’re making history right now. We get to be a part of that and pave the way as well. But it takes courage and bravery to be a part of something like that because it’s so much easier to just go along with what everyone else thinks. Go to your doctor, get prescribed Lortab, whatever it is. You may get addicted, you may not, but that’s still socially acceptable than to be smoking weed or ingesting weed, however you’re doing it because of the stigma behind it. When really opioids are killing people left and right here and it’s just devastating.
Chelsea Porter: I think you always have someone, even if your community that you’re in feels like you’re going to get kicked out or judged for it, whatever that community is, there’s one waiting for you. We want you to be well. Whatever that looks like.
Chris: That’s well put.
Tim Pickett: There’s always a community waiting for you that wants you to feel better.
Chelsea Porter: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris: I think, I don’t know, that’s a good place to probably even end the episode, Tim. I don’t know. What do you think? Unless, do you have any other for her or do you have anything more you want to mention, Chelsea, while the microphone’s still hot here or anything you want to talk about?
Chelsea Porter: I’m sorry I cried.
Chris: No, don’t don’t apologize. That’s-
Tim Pickett: No, don’t be. I’m sorry that I bring… I wanted to get into the conversation a little bit before and see if you were going to bring it up.
Chelsea Porter: I honestly didn’t. I had just had so much on my list of things I wanted to talk about that it kind of spaced, honestly. I think I’ve touched all of them at this point though.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: That’s great. It’s been fun having you on.
Chris: Yeah. Is there any way, like if a listener wanted to connect with you, is there a possible way they could connect with you? An email address or website or anything?
Chelsea Porter: Yeah, so I am pretty active on Instagram. So, if they wanted to follow me, I’m @who_the_chel, with underscores in between all of that.
Tim Pickett: Okay.
Chelsea Porter: I’ve been talking more and more about my limb difference and just giving people a look into that because it’s not who I am, but it’s a big part of who I am. I want to be able to educate people and help make the world a nicer place for kids like me so that if I can help kids avoid situations I’ve been in, because of ignorance, that I can do that for those kids and that would be enough for me. As well as, I just feel like I’ve kind of had enough shit handed to me in life that I can be an advocate for a few things and that’s sexual assault victims. That’s mental health awareness and suicide prevention. I think the more we talk about these things that are difficult to talk about the better off we’ll all be.
Chris: Couldn’t agree more. Couldn’t agree more. How can-
Tim Pickett: Absolutely.
Chris: … listeners connect with you, Tim, if they’re interested in finding out more about cannabis or getting their medical card or any of that good stuff?
Tim Pickett: Yeah. Utahmarijuana.org is the place to find out about the Medical Cannabis Program here in Utah, more information about how to become a patient or what conditions qualify like Chelsea’s. Also, we’re putting up Utahmarijuana.org/podcast will be the new home of Utah in the Weeds from an online standpoint. That should be rip-roaring ready to go soon.
Chris: I’m excited for that. I’m really excited. That’ll be easy for everybody to access everything and listen to some of the back episodes because, I mean, especially for the new people that are finding this podcast. Go through some of the back episodes. I mean, there’s like what, 40 something before this one. So there’s some good conversations in there. A lot to learn. So go listen to some of those.
Chris: Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts if that’s how you listen and go check out my other podcast, I am Salt Lake Podcast, iamsaltlake.com. We’ve been having some fun conversations. Just go check out the website, go check that out. Yeah, subscribe to this podcast, Utah in the Weeds, if you haven’t because we’re here every week. We’ve been doing a pretty good job of that, Tim. We haven’t missed a week.
Tim Pickett: No. I think we’re well on our way now.
Chris: Do you remember when we were missing weeks, all those in the beginning? It was like, “Gosh, we missed another week.” It was like-
Tim Pickett: I know. It’s getting a little easier and it’s just as fun, but we’ve definitely started putting some episodes down.
Chris: Yeah, yeah.
Tim Pickett: So I’m excited about 2021, putting all these out.
Chris: Very excited. Any final words, Chelsea, or anything you want to say?
Chelsea Porter: No, thank you so much for having me on.
Chris: You bet.
Tim Pickett: All right. Everybody stay safe out there.
It’s always interesting when Chris and Tim have an opportunity to sit down with someone heavily involved with the policy side of Medical Cannabis in Utah. That’s just what happened in episode 41 of Utah in the Weeds. Our hosts had a fascinating conversation with the Utah Department of Health’s (UDOH) Katie Barber. Barber’s official title is Health Program Specialist. Her job involves everything from maintaining EVS software to sitting in on Compassionate Use Board meetings. Tim & Chris discuss all of this with her and more.
In this episode, there is quite a bit of discussion about the transition from letters to Medical Cannabis cards.[09:12] As of January 1, letters are no longer acceptable in Utah. Medical Marijuana users must have state-issued cards. Barber discussed why the transition was made. [10:11] She explained that Medical Cannabis cards just make it easier for the UDOH to track what’s going on for regulatory purposes.
Tim and Chris also discussed the Compassionate Use Board in-depth with Katie. [17:34] She explained that the Board rarely denies applicants. When they do, it is typically for lack of information or concerns over continuity of care. Barber said that the Board tweaks its policies with every meeting, in hopes of improving them.[18:17]
In the later part of the discussion, Katie talks about how UDOH seeks to educate both patients and doctors. [31:48] They want patients to understand how easy it is to get a Medical Marijuana Card. They want providers to know how they can go about becoming QMPs. It was a fantastic dialogue answering some of the most frequently asked questions Tim and Chris receive.
This episode is for anyone who wants to know what they are thinking over at the UDOH. You won’t want to miss it.
Chris Holifield: This is episode 41, of Utah in the Weeds. And my name is Chris Holifield …
Tim Pickett: And I’m Tim Pickett. I mean, I kind of wanted to just jump in because I’m so excited about our guest today. This is the podcast for cannabis culture in Utah, really. And cannabis culture is a medical … It’s really a medical culture because of the Utah Medical Cannabis Program. And today we have really, who I consider the workhorse of the whole program, Katie Barber. She works for the Department of Health, and what’s your official title, Katie?
Katie Barber: My official title is Health Program Specialist.
Tim Pickett: But I run the whole program.
Katie Barber: But I do a lot of things at the program, yeah.
Tim Pickett: Right, right.
Katie Barber: Team effort.
Tim Pickett: Okay. Yeah, I’m excited about this, Chris.
Chris Holifield: Where do you want to start with her? Because I mean, I was looking here over everything she’s got going on there. I mean, there is so much that we could talk about.
Tim Pickett: I’m interested in maybe finding out how you came to be with the Department of Health in the program.
Katie Barber: Yeah, that is a great question. I joined the program in October of 2019, and I joined them after spending three years in retail pharmacy, and additionally working in harm reduction. So, this type of alternative treatment, helping Utah’s public in a non-traditional way sort of, was really of interest to me. My other background, my educational background, is health policy and communication, and health and science communication. So, this job was perfect. The program was just starting out, it was in a field that I wanted to be in, especially in a beginning field in Utah, like it is. And it was an opportunity not to just interface with Utah’s public, but to help Utah’s public in this new way. So, that’s how long I’ve been there, that’s why I got involved, and it’s been a wild ride.
Chris Holifield: Now, are you a Medical Cannabis user yourself? Or what’s your relationship with cannabis?
Katie Barber: I am not a patient. But I have family members who have benefited from it. So, and-
Chris Holifield: Very cool.
Katie Barber: … every day I hear amazing stories from our patients. So, it’s not out-of-the-realm possibility for me, that’s for sure.
Chris Holifield: So, you are open to it.
Katie Barber: Oh yeah, absolutely. And even though there’s a lot of research that needs to be done on it, just the anecdotal evidence to me is really compelling for something as simple as a backache, to debilitating arthritis. My family members have benefited from it because they have arthritis, so it’s … I watch people flourish before my eyes just as part of being in this program, and then from hearing how it benefits people. So, it’s hard to deny that there’s something to it, even though it’s not FDA regulated. It’s hard to deny that there’s not something to this.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, for sure. I mean, did you have a pretty good knowledge of cannabis before you started with the Department of Health?
Katie Barber: No, I really didn’t have any knowledge of cannabis. That really all started when I joined in 2019, learning about it. And it’s been really fascinating. I’ve approached it more from a policy perspective, I’ve been fortunate enough to be part of our compassionate use board, and help out with our cannabinoid product board. So, I get to learn the research that’s going on around the country, and around the world. So, yeah. I didn’t know anything about it until I joined, really.
Tim Pickett: Did you grow up here, in Utah?
Katie Barber: Yeah. I’m born and raised in Utah. Went to the U, and stayed here.
Tim Pickett: That’s pretty cool. I mean, I am too, and we’re … I think this perspective of it’s those rich, and so many people that are involved in the program are really just homegrown. So, there are people in Utah who are open-minded, apparently, who were born here and raised here.
Katie Barber: Yeah. Our projections were much lower by the end of the year than we hit, so we far exceeded expectations for patient … For cardholders. And the interest has been way higher than we anticipated, even for providers. Just people who want to find out more, maybe they want to seek treatment for their family member, they’re looking into how much research is out there, what the Department of Health can provide, which is a lot. We have a lot of resources. And I think it’s caught on, especially because there was this initial interest. More and more people are talking about how it’s benefiting them, so we kind of just see this domino effect. I think the people who hear, “Hey, this worked for me, might work for you.” And it’s surprising, because we are such a … Utah has certain cultural factors that prevent us from thinking about something that’s not regulated, typically. We are much more of a by-the-books type of people, I’d say.
Katie Barber: So, it has been awesome to see the growth, and see people benefit from it.
Tim Pickett: In your communications, you’re always been pretty positive about the fact that the program is doing better, or growing bigger than you anticipated. So, what was the original projection? Something like 16,000 in the beginning?
Katie Barber: I don’t even think it was that much. I think it was closer towards 10,000, 8,000 cards by the end of the year. It wasn’t that many.
Chris Holifield: I thought I heard even 6,000.
Katie Barber: Yeah, I think we’ve almost about doubled that growth over our projections.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, you’re at over 30,000 legal users now?
Katie Barber: I can give you the updated number. We are between 18,000 and 18,500.
Tim Pickett: Of legal card holding … Okay. So, this is good news, because there isn’t anybody in the state who probably knows this number better than you.
Katie Barber: Oh yeah. Oh, yes. So, we’ve got a small team. So, actually one of our teammates is pretty much approving all of these. It’s a small team, so she is the one that really has seen all of these cards come through her desk. I help patients along the way, and … But she really has been pushing through on these approvals, and we had such a wave leading up to the end of the year because of the law change. And so, we saw about 2,000 more just between November and December kick up.
Tim Pickett: Wow. Okay, so just so everybody knows, I’m going to back up and I’m going to basically reintroduce you. You are part of a small team at the Utah Department of Health, who specializes in cannabis. And really the policy surrounding how to get a card, what the process is like through that EVS system, the electronic verification system. And you’re really an expert in that system.
Katie Barber: Right, yeah. And just to add to that, we facilitate the law, so we can suggest things about policy. And of course, we have the Utah Department of Health rule, but we are facilitating what the statute tells us to. So, yes, that includes an electronic system that was mandated by the legislature, everything had to be electronic for people to get cards. And that’s what we do, day in, day out. That’s what our help desk is for, is helping people get their cards. And occasionally telling people how the law works. People ask questions about that, too.
Tim Pickett: Flash back to March 1st, 2020, the day it all opened. We had card number one, right on the podcast, David Sutherland. He’s a friend of ours, and what was that like when this all opened up for you and your team?
Katie Barber: It’s crazy. We’ve grown since then so our team was even smaller at that time. But to watch everything, it really did come together on March 1st and March 2nd, when the first pharmacy opened. And it’s the culmination of everything, because there had been so much work done to create the software, make sure we were adhering to the statute. You trying to anticipate things that will make it easy for patients to get cards, and then next thing you know you’re in there on a Saturday at the Department of Health, playing help desk for all of these patients that want their cards on day one. But that’s great. I mean, you couldn’t ask for a better situation where you have people that genuinely are seeking alternative treatment, and you’re there to help them. There’s no better feeling than that. So, it was wild, and it continues to be wild. But it’s amazing.
Chris Holifield: And then COVID happened on top of it, so I’m sure that didn’t really help.
Katie Barber: Right. That’s been challenging for everybody, especially the Department of Health. And it is strange, I get the most … Interaction I get now is with patients, and then also happening to talk to people like Tim, or one of the pharmacists at the pharmacies and they tell me these situations where patients are benefiting from it. After you’re doing so much every single day to just see people’s name on paper, or help write rule, or whatever you’re doing for the day, and you don’t really get to see that connection then where somebody got help. But those are the moments where you really do remember oh, this has an impact. They’re not just numbers, they are patients and they’re being benefited by this.
Tim Pickett: So Katie, talk to us about some of the changes that are occurring in the program starting January 1st, 2021. Because I think our listeners are really interested in that. Not everybody knows. I mean, there’s a lot of patients on my list that were seen a long time ago who never got their card at all, and still they have this letter. What’s-
Katie Barber: Right. So …
Tim Pickett: What are the changes?
Katie Barber: Yeah. It’s that letter. So, previously patients were able to purchase at the pharmacies using a letter. Part of the intent of the legislature, I think, was to allow people who had been possessing product out of state, and might not have been able to get it in-state, due to lack of availability, they wrote into the law that these people could purchase with a letter at these pharmacies. That would be their proof of being able to possess in Utah. So, that went away on December 31st. So, if you had a letter you need a card now. If you had product from somewhere not in Utah, you’re illegally possessing. So, that’s the major change there.
Chris Holifield: Why couldn’t you just keep the letter program going if it was working? Why not just let people keep using letters?
Katie Barber: One big reason I would imagine is that this helps us track better. So, whenever you have a system that’s not … Is manual, it’s just going to have more flaws. And that’s actually part of the Controlled Substances Act, that it’s up until January 1st of 2021 that somebody can possess something with just a letter, or proof of their provider being able to prescribe it. They would be able to possess a letter … I need to actually think of what the law says. They would be able to possess Medical Cannabis as long as their provider could attest that the provider wanted them to be using it. So, that took the form of a letter, that got turned into letters, and then people were able to purchase. And it just becomes a lot easier to track, to manage, to … In my opinion, it’s better for care over time if you got a system where the provider can see what the patient is getting. That’s not something that happens now with the letter process.
Katie Barber: So, I think it’s a combination of the legislature wants this to be regulated, we want to be able to track it, we still want people to have access to it. That was the way of making people have access to it, letting people have access to it for as long as possible. And giving them time to convert to a card.
Chris Holifield: When this first launched, I think it was going to be cards from the very beginning. Letters weren’t going to work the entire year, but then there were problems with the EVS if I’m not mistaken? Is that kind of why that changed? Or what was the reason for that change?
Katie Barber: It’s possible that patient advocacy groups really pushed for an easier way for patients to access Medical Cannabis.
Tim Pickett: Plus… I love talking to you because you’re like, “We have no position. We have no-
Chris Holifield: Okay, okay. I get it, I get it.
Tim Pickett: … position.”
Chris Holifield: Yeah, I gotcha.
Katie Barber: We didn’t write the law. I know a lot of people think we do, but we didn’t. So, obviously we want patients to be able to access cards as easily as possible. When you have a new program, it had a way higher …
Chris Holifield: Interest.
Katie Barber: Yeah. There was way more interest at the very beginning, and I think a lot of patients reported back to these advocacy groups, or maybe it was to their senators and legislative representatives, that they weren’t able to access. We have never been able to confirm that there was some sort of delay on our end, but then you also had issues at the very outset, which is general product availability. So, that could’ve been another reason that the second bill was passed, to allow patients to purchase with a letter. But it didn’t have anything to do with a … It wasn’t a software related issue.
Chris Holifield: I got you.
Katie Barber: The software that we use now is the software that we used then.
Tim Pickett: And it’s pretty close to the same process to register, but there … I remember in the beginning, I mean, we were able to access the EVS system all the way through … I’ll be honest, I was kind of one of the people that was not very pro-expanding this letter program. I thought the EVS system seems to work. It was only taking about a day, or in some cases less than that to get somebody through. But there was certainly was a lot of … No, there was a lot of talk around the EVS system is totally broken, and bogus, and that sort of thing. Do you feel like now that you have no letters, are you seeing this week, I guess would be your only … The only timeframe. Are you getting a lot more calls from people and providers, having to now learn this new system?
Katie Barber: Well, one of the great things is that part of the law that was passed required that certain people that had a role in patients accessing Medical Cannabis educated the patients about getting a card. So, personally I think we saw more interest before the end of the year, because more patients actually knew that they did need … That there was an expiration date to their letters. So, I think we’re kind of over that hump, actually, for … Just personally. That’s what I think for how many people are kind of mass emailing, calling, because we did have … We were backlogged. And we kind of still continue to be backlogged with requests of people just wanting to know how to get a card. We’ll often get language to our email, or over the phone about I need to convert to a card from my letter. And it’s just kind of interesting, because the letter process, again, was born out of just something that turned into it’s standard. That was never the law.
Katie Barber: And it became law. So, I hope that answers your question.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, totally. So, how long right now are you out? Because the law says that we can wait up to 15 days, but I’ve never seen anybody wait 15 days. How long does it take once the approval … Once the QMP approves that in the system, how long is the state usually out?
Katie Barber: It’ll be less than 15 days. That’s the law, that’s going to be the max amount of time somebody has to wait. And our turnaround time is usually much faster. I would say within three days people have their cards. That’s a long time compared to our typical turnaround.
Tim Pickett: How many cards are you issuing … Are you approving about a week now?
Katie Barber: Let’s see, I’d say an average, a good average for the month is 2,000. So, that would help break it down by week there. It varies.
Tim Pickett: How does it vary? It’s always fascinating to me that it varies so much.
Chris Holifield: That what varies?
Tim Pickett: Does it vary with COVID? The appointments.
Chris Holifield: Oh, I gotcha.
Tim Pickett: For cards. That it varies. Healthcare doesn’t really vary. Chronic pain doesn’t really vary. But for some reason there’s 600 this week, and only 200 next week.
Katie Barber: Right, yeah.
Tim Pickett: Does COVID affect the … Your workload?
Katie Barber: I think when the lockdown first started, it especially did. We had people that were kind of in limbo with treatment just in general for their conditions. And we had a lot of interest, and we still continue to get interest from providers especially, who would like the opportunity to consult patients, either at home or … Not at home. They want to consult patients with telehealth, or telemedicine, and they’re not able to because the law just says they have to meet in person. So, I do think that that did have an impact, because that meant the offices, like yours Tim, they were just reorganizing to accommodate these people. And we have to factor in social distancing, and knowing who’s in and out of your door it becomes a lot harder to treat people, whether it’s any appointment, any regular appointment for your treatment. It just turns into something different.
Tim Pickett: Do you know the percentage, or the numbers of people who get denied?
Katie Barber: So, really the only population of patients that would get denied are those that are in the Compassionate Use Board group. If we don’t have enough information about a patient’s certification for Medical Cannabis use in the EVS, they will be marked incomplete. If we don’t get that information, it simply expires after 30 days with no change. And most people get something changed within 30 days. So, we don’t have a lot of actual denials at all. Even in the Compassionate Use Board, we don’t.
Tim Pickett: How many people have gone through the Compassionate Use Board?
Katie Barber: So, we’ve had 118 approved through the Compassionate Use Board. And I would say only a few more would have been denied. So, that gives you an idea of how many people have actually come through the queue.
Chris Holifield: And aren’t you a part of the Compassionate Use Board?
Katie Barber: Yes, yeah. I do everything with the Compassionate Use Board. So, I organize the meetings, I take the minutes, I do the audio, I help providers navigating-
Chris Holifield: I was wondering-
Katie Barber: … medical records.
Chris Holifield: For our listeners, let’s say they’re interested in approaching the Compassionate Use Board, do you have any suggestions, or tips? Or words of advice that might help their situation?
Katie Barber: Absolutely. So, our most successful petitioners will have submitted as much information as they can about their diagnosis from their provider. You could write letters too, about why you believe that you should be using Medical Cannabis, you can include research about your diagnosis that we can refer to. But the strongest petitions have the most information about the patient, and what their diagnosis is. So, whether that’s x-rays, or consults over time, documentation from multiple providers might be needed. That’s one thing that really does help patients. If we know, for example, that your primary care physician is endorsing your Medical Cannabis treatment, or at least has been consulted about your Medical Cannabis treatment, that helps. If the specialist that you go to knows that you want to seek Medical Cannabis treatment, and you make that known to the board through your petition, that will help.
Tim Pickett: Interesting. Okay, so I have a little bit more specific question, and I’ll be careful here. If a patient is denied on the Compassionate Use Board, is it typically … There’s only been a few denials. A couple of them have come from our group. And I think that it’s because for some reason people refer patients that are underage to me, specifically. If you listen to Representative Ward’s so-called pot clinics, will refer their Compassionate Use Board cases to me personally because they know that I know about the Compassionate Use Board. And we have helped a few patients navigate that process. In the denial, there’s only been a couple of them, but is it usually something like … That continuity of care between providers seems to have come up more recently, as kind of an issue that the Compassionate Use Board is considering.
Katie Barber: You’re dead on. Yeah. So, I have multiple things to say to this. But the first is it’s a process that’s in its growth phase. I’ve been with it since the beginning, and we’ve had actually a nurse transition out, and a nurse transition in that supports the board. We are still in the process of developing the policies for this board, even what are our bylaws? What are we going to look for? Are we going to have some sort of expedited way for getting these done if we’ve seen this type of case before? But you bring up a really good point about continuity of care. So, like I mentioned, I probably should’ve mentioned more in-depth, I say primary care physician, or somebody like a specialist that’s treating you, what you’ll have, yes, are these patients that haven’t had the conversation with their primary care physician yet about Medical Cannabis, or with their specialist. Somebody who’s treating them for their condition about for Medical Cannabis, because they assume that they’re not going to endorse treatment with Medical Cannabis, so they do seek a different provider that has more experience with the Compassionate Use Board petition process.
Katie Barber: So, if communication happens between everybody, whether that’s with a clinic like yours, or it’s a different situation with a different clinic, that’s going to help. We do like to see, on the board, continuity of care. That will help your petition, just because communication is key in treating you and your health, and maintaining your health. So, that’s why it’s going to help to communicate between providers. For sure.
Tim Pickett: This is good to know too, that the … It sounds like the Compassionate Use Board in the beginning kind of had this idea, and that idea is evolving. Because, for example, in Florida if you have a non-approved condition, there is essentially a form that you just fill out and send to the board, and they approve it, just because it’s so common. And they have established kind of this workflow. Do you see that ever happening with the Compassionate Use Board? Or do you think that’ll take maybe years to develop?
Katie Barber: Oh, I definitely think that could happen. We’re setting precedents every time we hold meetings, so I could totally see that happening in the future where it’s more of an automatic petition. You barely even have to do anything to petition. And by barely, I mean as long as you have the documentation. If we’ve seen the same type of case, we are going to be more likely to push that case through, without as much of a … As much scrutiny, I would say. But the patient does have to do a little bit of work to get to that point. And it will be left up to the board, if that’s what they decide. One of the other things is as we grow, we’re going to simply have more petitions. Are we going to be able to take more time to review a case? Will time factor into it? What are we going to do to accommodate more cases? Does it mean more meetings? We’re still literally answering those questions.
Katie Barber: So, I do see that being a possibility down the line, but also a factor of what if the legislature has question? Then what if they make a law? That means they’re going to enforce more time in a process, or require more information in the process. It’s just a weird balancing act that, of course the department and the board can inform, but ultimately we don’t have final say over. So, I do see that being a possibility, though.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, the Compassionate Use Board is kind of this … It’s this hidden thing, I think, amongst patients and people even in the industry. Even though I think that if we ask somebody like you, there doesn’t seem to be a lot of transparency into the Compassionate Use Board yet. So, hopefully that will change as time goes on, and we’ll get more transparency into the system. Do you feel like the Compassionate Use Board … I know we’re talking a lot about this, but do you feel like that board is becoming more friendly to cannabis? Or they’re pretty set in their opinions?
Katie Barber: So, all of these board members had to have been … They had to affirm that they would be willing to treat their own patients with Medical Cannabis, or at least they were open to the idea of using Medical Cannabis or else they wouldn’t be on this board. That’s just a requirement of being on the board. So, over time to see how they work out, sometimes board members want to see that. They want to see progress over time. In an environment where we don’t have a double blind study to refer to, this is our closest thing to that, really. These are patients we can even track over time. So, they really do prioritize patient safety, considering what the outcomes will be, and weighting benefit and risk. They’re most concerned with that. So, I mean, I don’t think it’s a question of being friendly to cannabis, it’s how can they best be part of a process that has integrity to maintain patient safety, and at the beginning of a process like that we’re just going to want to take more time to consider what the effects will be.
Tim Pickett: Speaking of data, you guys did a survey of a bunch of Utah patients, yeah?
Katie Barber: Yeah, we did. We did our first patient survey. Yeah, so that was sent to 4,000 patients in our system. Just randomized patients.
Chris Holifield: What was the survey?
Katie Barber: So, the survey had questions about their treatment. So, some were open-ended questions, like how do you feel this benefited you? Some of them were on a scale of this to this, have you seen a progression in your condition? Will you seek continued care in the Utah market? How do you think the prices are? What do you think about how prices are? What do you think might happen as a result of Medical Cannabis prices in Utah? They had the option to let us know where they thought they would go after being in the program once. Or we were just questioning them on their use before, what they anticipate for the future, questions like that to help us gauge how patients are responding to the program. And then also to the treatment.
Chris Holifield: Do you guys have anything to do with the pricing? You were mentioning the survey asked questions about pricing, and that’s kind of a thing people are talking a lot about, the higher prices here in Utah. I was curious now how much you guys control that.
Katie Barber: Zero.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Katie Barber: There is no control over the prices whatsoever. And that was a decision from the legislature. That could change, too. We don’t know.
Chris Holifield: You guys just get that three bucks that they take at the pharmacies, I guess. Right?
Katie Barber: Yeah, there’s a $3 transaction fee on top of every purchase.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Katie Barber: You could buy $400 worth of product and you’d still only pay $3 to the Department of Health. And then our card prices are pretty low in comparison to other states, too.
Chris Holifield: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. Just a couple of things that we get questions about all the time. Does the EVS system automatically set my expiration date?
Katie Barber: Yeah. So, the EVS system automatically gives initial patients a 90-day expiration date. Patients who renew after that will get a six-months-out expiration date. I try to tell patients, “That’s your default setting.” So, a patient that looks closely at the law will notice that the providers actually have the ability to change that date if they want to. The law gives them the ability to limit the participation in the program if they choose, just kind of like writing a prescription for a 90-day supply versus a 30-day supply. Or seeing how the patient reacts to it, and then prescribing more. Kind of like that. Obviously these are not prescriptions, but I think that was kind of the intent. So, those are the default settings for card validity.
Tim Pickett: Are a lot of providers adjusting those dates?
Katie Barber: Not a lot. I think the more providers we have, the more we’re going to see that happen, though. Some providers like to have more control over patient treatment, so they want to see their patient in again. Like some other prescriptions, some other very controlled prescriptions, to see how they’re reacting to it. So, not a lot of them are doing that, but I just … Some patients have issues with it, so I’d like to remind them that that’s changeable.
Tim Pickett: Right. It is. And I mean, we’ve used it a couple of times in cases where really I need to see this person back in three months because this is very serious situation, and we want to make sure that we keep up on the patient care. Opioids, for example, that’s an every month visit for people. And so, I like to remind people that we’re definitely not to that point. But the EVS system, it does the 90-day, and then six months, it does another six months, then it … Does it default to the annual?
Katie Barber: Yeah. The provider will actually be able to indicate that that person should have a card for a year after they’ve gone through those two renewal periods. And once they’ve had their card for a year. So, that’s what you’re describing Tim, is having your card for a year is a requirement of the law, and then after that time the provider can indicate that they can renew for a full year.
Tim Pickett: But the default is still going to be six months.
Katie Barber: No, it will be a year.
Tim Pickett: Okay.
Katie Barber: After that. They just have to have had their card for a year, and the system is smart enough to know when that happens.
Tim Pickett: Got it. The little technicalities of a program like this are … They’re a burden to the patient in some ways, they’re just kind of made up, it feels like, in other ways. Kind of a balancing act, it feels like. Do you feel like the Utah system is a pretty good balance of safety and access?
Katie Barber: I think it is. I personally think it is. I mean, this is not really a situation that has a precedent, where you are taking a law, you’re bringing it into a sphere where people can utilize it in a way that is not endorsed by the federal government. You want to also educate the patient as well as you can while enforcing the law. Okay, so a patient acknowledges that they’ve read the law, they’ve acknowledged that they’ve read the law, how do they know what the law says about their renewal? Or whether or not their provider can change the renewal? I think there are ways in which our system could be improved, and I will say our system can be improved, and we are making changes, and that will be just a thing that happens forever and ever. But there are probably ways our system can be improved to kind of better balance that education versus enforcement, or …
Katie Barber: Yeah. Education versus enforcement for patients so that they know what they’re complying with when they submit information, and also why they’re complying with it, because I think that tediousness that you feel is a result of just not knowing that these are requirements of the law. Or it could just mean that we need to spend more time educating patients just in the real world, actual communication efforts, and getting out there and getting in front of the public. And of course, for such a small team it’s hard to do that at this moment, which is why an opportunity like this talking to you is amazing, because this is one of the few communication channels we have an opportunity to be in front of is people’s ears. So, yeah. That tediousness is probably just … It will be a balance act forever, because it’s requirements of the law.
Chris Holifield: You were mentioning you don’t have opportunities to get in people’s ears. I mean, is there anything that you would like to say, that you want to make sure we talk about?
Katie Barber: Man. There’s so many things that we’d like to tell the public about how easy it is to get a card. So, it’s a simple process, it really is. I would say one of the biggest hangups that patients have is that they’ll go start the process, and go about a third of the way in, and assume they’re done. So, one giant thing I would recommend for everybody to do is just to read the instructions about getting your card before you even start the process. Before you even find a provider, just read the instructions, and because a lot of people get that third of the way in, think they’re done, when they actually need to talk to their provider, or find a provider. And they could’ve already done that.
Katie Barber: So, that’s one of the things that I think patients can benefit from knowing. The other thing, the other big thing, is that a lot of patients don’t have a provider. So, we get questions all the time about what a patient should do if they don’t know where to even start to find a provider that can provide care for them, or even approach their current provider about having a conversation about Medical Cannabis, or they don’t know whether their current provider will … Or if they’re part of the program, or if they will become a part of the program. So, I always tell patients have that dialog with your provider, see if they’re going to be willing to enroll in the program. We always offer the opportunity to speak to your providers if you need that. Our nurse is happy to talk to anybody, anybody on our team is happy to talk to one of your providers and just inform them about the process because it really is an easy process. And that’s what we’re emphasizing, is it’s not that difficult.
Katie Barber: Providers have to go through four hours of CE, so if there’s any providers out there listening it’s four hours of CE, and then a fee to the Department of Health, and then you’re registered. And that means you can care for up to 275 patients, that means you could care for just one patient. But if you’re interested in seeking just an alternative way of treating your patients, it’s a possibility to consider for you. If any patients reach out asking about assistance finding low-cost healthcare, we have resources for them, too. So, if fees are too high for certain patients, they can come to us and we can give them some resources about applying for a card in a way that’s not going to take too much out of their pockets. I also like to remind patients that when they have conversations with their primary care physicians, those primary care physicians have the ability to bill their insurance for treatment.
Katie Barber: So, if your physician, or specialist is open to it, just bill your insurance and then you don’t have to pay an out-of-pocket fee to providers if you’re not able to pay for that. So, those are a couple things we tell patients where they get stuck, or they don’t know what the next step is dialogue, ask us questions, read our instructions, it’s an easy process. Communicate with your providers, and if they have any issues they can reach out to our help desk. We’re available by email or by phone, and we have also a really quick turnaround time there, too. So, anybody needs help we’re happy to do it. And if any of your providers need help, happy to do it. That’s what I do most of my time is helping providers through our software, and going to clinics and helping them out with the software. So, yeah. I know it’s difficult, and the system is improving, but we’re there to help so let us help you.
Tim Pickett: So, you actually will go out? Or somebody will call and say, “Hey, I’m a provider. I need some help with the system,” and you’ll walk them through the whole process, learning how to certify a patient, learning what that looks like, what renewal statuses are, things like that?
Katie Barber: Yeah. That’s what I spend the most of my time doing right now, so even before COVID we were out doing presentations, educating the public and the providers about what the program means, what it’s going to mean to be in it, how you become part of the program. And now that we have people that are in it, it’s … Yeah, troubleshooting for providers, teaching providers how to use the system, answering provider questions about the law, what do we require as department of health as part of recommendations, things like that. Yes, we do troubleshooting for the providers and teaching them how to use the system.
Tim Pickett: And there are over 400, or 500 providers in enrolled?
Katie Barber: Yeah. We’ve got 560 as of last month.
Tim Pickett: And the goal as like 100 in the first year?
Katie Barber: You know what? I’m actually not sure what the goal for providers was. It was low. It was low compared to what it is now, that’s for sure.
Tim Pickett: Okay, so I got two things I’m thinking about here. If you spend all of your time right now helping providers navigate the system, what if they allowed everybody to do this just for one or two, or 15 people? That seems like a lot of work.
Katie Barber: Yeah, that could be a lot of work. You might be right about that. It could be a lot of work. So, what might be the alternative, maybe … I don’t know. Who knows what could be the alternative to helping people through it one-by-one. I don’t know. If there is any sort of possible legislation in the future that could address that, I would hope that legislation and legislatures listen to how much of an impact that would be if we did have to help every single person through the software. Yeah.
Tim Pickett: That would be a big deal. I know the Department of Health, so I mean, I won’t even really ask you the question of where … What does the Department of Health, or what do you think about this proposed legislation to allow any provider to recommend cannabis for 15 people? Because I don’t think you can take a position on that, can you?
Katie Barber: I can not, as an employee of the Department of Health, but personally, just from my own background, my first goal would be obviously to give patients access to the treatment that they need. I would hope, just as a voter myself, as a private citizen, that the legislature would recognize that that’s what we’re going for here. So, how would they envision that the Department of Health could best enforce a policy that gives a lot of people access while making it easy? I mean, nobody wants something hard, and that’s not some sort of opinion from a professional. That’s just we don’t want things to be hard, they shouldn’t have to be this hard.
Chris Holifield: So, what’s coming in store for 2021? Anything you want to talk about coming in store for there? Anything that you know or want to share with listeners that way?
Katie Barber: Yeah, absolutely. So, there are exciting things on the horizon for 2021. We’ve got seven new pharmacies that plan to open by the end of March, and on our website we have an update email list. So, you can sign up for that, you’ll be the first to know when those are open. You’ll also be the first to know when our home delivery begins. And that is really a big step for our program, because that means that people that are in areas that might not be able to access Medical Cannabis are going to be more likely to be able to access Medical Cannabis. So again, sign up on our website if you want to know about that.
Chris Holifield: Any idea when home delivery might start?
Katie Barber: I know that we are finishing up some of the very last outstanding software bugs that have to take place and get fixed before we launch that. But it will be soon.
Chris Holifield: Very cool.
Tim Pickett: It’s going to be pretty cool for home delivery. That’s just going to blow the program up.
Katie Barber: Yeah. Well, one of the things that-
Tim Pickett: In rural areas, especially.
Katie Barber: Oh yeah, absolutely. I think one of the things that’s most unique about our program is the pharmacy aspect. I am biased, but I love that we have pharmacists, actual pharmacists, involved in this process. And I do think that we stand out among other states because of things like that, and home delivery. And there’s actually, in my opinion, there’s not a lot of regulation about home delivery. I mean, obviously there is, but it could be so much more tightly controlled than it is. And there’s not a ton of hoops to jump through really, for patients to get product. They just use the address on their file, and that’s where it gets delivered, and it’s really not going to be as kind of crazy as you might think it would be in Utah, to launch something like Medical Cannabis traveling down the road. It’s not actually going to be that big of a deal.
Katie Barber: Of course, it’s regulated but the access is actually going to be pretty easy, so I’m really thrilled personally, that that access is going to be there, and it’s going to come with professionalism. I think that’s key. If you want to build a program with integrity, in my opinion that’s key.
Chris Holifield: I can’t wait.
Tim Pickett: Very cool.
Chris Holifield: It’s going to be awesome. A lot of people are eager for that home delivery, but … Anything else? Anything else coming up? I kind of interrupted you there with the home delivery. Anything else you want to talk about for 2021 that people might need to be aware of?
Katie Barber: Well, those are the two big things-
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Katie Barber: … that I can think of. I always like to remind patients, and anybody who wants to be involved with this program, whether you’re a provider, a neighbor of a patient, a mother of a patient, you have a voice and it can be heard in the legislature. Just this is me saying it personally, but this is how you influence Medical Cannabis law, and if you want to be an active voice in this process you have to at least say something. It’s easy to get discouraged when you think your voice might not be being heard. I think a lot of people turn to an entity like the Department of Health to say, “You should change this.” But it’s actually your senator, and your representative who you’ll want to reach out to. And the legislative session begins this month. Really soon. So, get involved, watch the news, see what’s going on there, maybe reach out to lobbyist groups, or your senator representative and see how the law’s working for you, and what you think might need to be changed to make it better, even.
Katie Barber: So, that’s another thing I would say that’s on the horizon is the [unintelligible.] And that session starts on the 19th, so it’s coming up.
Tim Pickett: Well, this has been great. I am so grateful for you, Katie. You have done more work, frankly, for our patients … I mean, you’re integral in the care of Utah cannabis patients, so thank you very much.
Katie Barber: Happy to do it. And it’s providers like you and your clinic that work so hard to keep our program afloat. And you are also an expert in our system, so you have to give yourself more credit too, about how you know how to use our software, because it is hard to use. And we hear all the time about your patients, so we know that a lot of people are getting help through you guys.
Tim Pickett: Thank you. Well, is there anything else Chris, you want to bring up with Katie?
Chris Holifield: I don’t think so. I mean, we got a lot of the big things covered. I mean, I think you said the important thing is to go sign up on your email so people can find out when these new pharmacies are opening up? Because that’s one of the biggest things I hear too is that people don’t know when they’re opening up. So, it’s like hey, you find out how you can hear right there.
Tim Pickett: Right, where the addresses are, when they’re opening up, there’s so much talk about St. George, and where is it? And when’s it opening? And nobody down there knows. We need to sign up on the Department of Health … What’s the website address?
Katie Barber: The exact website address is medicalcannabis.utah.gov. And the email signup is on every single page on our website, but if you go to the resources page and click on news, you’ll get there fastest.
Tim Pickett: Okay, cool.
Chris Holifield: Very cool. And how can listeners reach out to you if they wanted to connect with you? Like an email address? Or anything? Is that something-
Katie Barber: Yep, that’ll be email.
Chris Holifield: … you can give away?
Katie Barber: Well, I’ll give you our help desk.
Chris Holifield: Okay, that works, too.
Katie Barber: It’s medicalcannabis@utah.gov. If you do want to talk to me, ask for Katie. And I will respond to you. Yeah, and that’s goes if you’re a provider, if you have any questions about pharmacies, if you’re not able to find it just shoot us an email. Any questions about the law, if we’re able to answer we will answer.
Chris Holifield: Anything else you want to add? Or how can listeners get ahold of you, Tim, if they’re interested to find out more about Medical Cannabis, or what you’re up to?
Tim Pickett: Well, utahmarijuana.org is our website, and we have a lot of the same, frankly, information that Katie talks about on the government … The Department of Health. We want to be a one-stop shop as well, for people and patients to get all of this info about the EVS system, and that sort of thing, too. But if you want to become a patient or you have questions, you can reach out to us, at utahmarijuana.org. And you can find out more about the podcast, all of our podcasts are going to be at utahmarijuana.org/podcast, which is kind of an exciting development for our community here in Utah, the podcast community.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, and we wanted to create more of a little home for you. And speaking of that, call our voicemail line, it would be really cool if you call and left a message. Nobody will ever pick up the voicemail number, but if you have any questions for Tim or myself, or about the podcast, or about cannabis in Utah, or if you’re interested in coming on the show, whatever. That number’s 385-215-9557, and like I said, nobody will ever pick that up so call that number and leave a voicemail. And we might even play it on the show. You can listen to my other podcast, I am Salt Lake Podcast, iamsaltlake.com. I do that podcast with my wife, Krissie. We have a lot of fun getting to know people in Salt Lake City. We just had a really fun episode with a gentleman who goes by the name of Bad Brad Wheeler. I don’t know if either of you guys are familiar with Brad, but he’s a great guy. He’s got a great story, and he’s got a lot of energy to him.
Chris Holifield: So, go listen to-
Tim Pickett: Yeah. And I love that podcast. Check it out.
Chris Holifield: Anything else you want to add, Katie? Any sign-off you want to give for the listeners? Any fancy sign-off?
Katie Barber: A fancy sign-off. Man, just check out our resources. We spent a lot of time on our website, so check out our website. We have the answers there, we have fact sheets, we have facts, we have a locate-your-provider page, and when in doubt send us an email.
Chris Holifield: Awesome. We got to get you back on the podcast, Katie. You are awesome. You are-
Tim Pickett: Yeah. Thanks for coming on.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, thank you so much.
Katie Barber: Thanks for having me.
Tim Pickett: All right, everybody. Stay safe out there.
Utah in the Weeds hosts Chris Holifield and Tim Pickett began 2021 with Episode 40 and an interview with Medical Marijuana patient Valerie Blaylock. As a Medical Marijuana user for more than 10 years, Blaylock says she has a special relationship with cannabis.
Early on, the conversation focused a lot on different strains and how Valerie uses them to cope with multiple medical conditions, including MS. [01:26] It was a fantastic discussion from a management standpoint. The three talked about how different strains can be used at different times, depending on a patient’s needs. [04:03]
That led to a discussion about journaling cannabis use. [05:29] The idea here is to keep track of what works and what doesn’t so that patients can always make the best use of the products they buy. A journal is also helpful as a ‘shopping list’ so to speak, making it easier for patients to ensure they get the right products with every visit to the dispensary.
About a third of the way into the podcast it was revealed that Blaylock is also a patient navigator at utahmarijuana.org. [08:52] Her long history and personal experience with Medical Cannabis makes her a valuable resource to the organization. Patients love her, too.
About half the podcast was devoted to an excellent discussion about vaping versus smoking Medical Marijuana. [15:50] Valerie brought a lot of experience to the table, talking about a variety of vaping devices. Tim encouraged smokers to give vaping a try, explaining that it’s safer and quite a different experience.[18:16]
Chris, Tim, and Valerie wrapped up by mentioning a few predictions for 2021. [35:07] They generally agreed that this year could be the year Medical Marijuana is decriminalized at the federal level. If this is the case, then it could open up the door to more access for more people.
Chris Holifield: This is actually the first episode of 2021, episode 40 of Utah in the Weeds. My name is Chris Holifield.
Tim Pickett: I’m Tim Pickett.
Chris Holifield: And we have a very special guest today. The first episode of the year, we figured let’s bring a patient on. Valerie Blaylock, is that how you pronounce your name, Valerie?
Valerie Blaylock: It is.
Chris Holifield: Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, and being willing to kind of share a little bit of your story or a little bit of your cannabis usage and your history there. Was there anywhere special you wanted to start with this one, Tim? Or do you want to kind of go way back here with Valerie or how do you want to do this one?
Tim Pickett: That’s a good question. I think the exciting thing about Valerie is she has a lot of personal experience, she has a good relationship with the plant, is that true, Valerie?
Valerie Blaylock: Yeah. I would say that that’s very true.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. So I think this episode we just see where it takes us, Chris. We’ll see where 2021 takes us.
Chris Holifield: Now, Valerie, when you say a relationship with the plant, what do you mean by a relationship? Is this as far as growing it, as far as using it for years and years and years? Let’s talk about that relationship there.
Valerie Blaylock: My relationship with cannabis has actually I think evolved. At first I started using it to kind of cope with my chronic pain. I have constant sleep issues, and at one point I was on opiates, Tramadol, which they told me wasn’t an opiate, but is, and a bunch of other medications, and I think at one point I was on like 20 medications or something ridiculous. I was initially diagnosed with MS. So a lot of complicated medical conditions that were really hard to manage, and I did what I could. I got it where I could. I tried to source it as best I could, but the problem is when it’s not legal, people will do what it takes to take care of themselves, and honestly it was one of the few things that worked.
Chris Holifield: How far back was this? Just for a little bit of a timeline, are we talking 20 years here? We talking 10 years, we talking 40 years? What are we talking?
Valerie Blaylock: I would say consistently, consistent use of cannabis would be probably a solid 10 years as far as for treating medical stuff. Of course 16, 17, probably a little bit younger than that, I used it to escape at first, honestly. I have an addictive personality, and if it’s a thing I can get addicted to it. I struggle with my relationship with cannabis sometimes, but especially now, especially having access to strains that I can count on and things that I can experiment with, that has really enhanced my ability to cope with my depression, to cope with my medical stuff, to cope with my addiction actually, because I can be very deliberate about it. I can be very deliberate about the strains I choose in those moments, or do I use a tincture or do I use flower or do I use both? Do I use the high THC, do I use high CBD or both, some combination of it.
So I look at this as, the interesting thing is sometimes when I use a strain it affects me one way, sometimes I use a strain it affects me another way, and I really think, I worked with herbs in the past, and it is very, very similar. There’s, for lack of a better term, there’s an energy to the plant. When you approach an herb or a plant on it’s own terms, I think that there’s a relationship that happens almost an agreement, like okay I’m willing to see what you have to give me and to work with that. It’s so easy to take that pill and not be conscious of it.
Tim Pickett: You know, Chris, we’ve heard this before, like Valerie talks about, how having consistent product selection and consistent access has made a big difference in your ability to treat your condition, or to use it medically, or to use it for whatever really you want, but consistently. Not just getting it wherever or buying a bunch at once and then using the best stuff first and being left with oh I’ve got this bag of gummies, they’re okay but it’s all I’ve got.
Chris Holifield: And hoping you can find similar down the road again because it worked so well.
Tim Pickett: Sure. And I don’t think anybody keeps, before you were able to get it here, Valerie, were you somebody who kept a journal of what you used before and then would go back and seek out the same brand and the same strain? Or was that just something that, I don’t know anybody who does that.
Valerie Blaylock: Actually I was one of those people. I did actually do my best to, when I would go I would try to keep track of at least what worked and what didn’t so that the next time I got product, because honestly, I was going out of state. So you never know. If you go every six months or whatever, you never know what they’re going to have, and things change. So even though I was trying to pay attention, again, there’s that consistent access, right? Driving six hours or four hours or three hours or whatever it is. That’s a significant commitment to do. So it is, it’s difficult. It becomes a burden, and it becomes like okay do I have enough product to last me the rest of this month, do I need to drive sooner? Do I need to plan this thing? So yeah, being able to actually have that has been enormously helpful and I have been doing my best to keep a journal now. Some days I’m better at it than others, but I have a general idea.
One of the things that I like is, and I tell our clients this too, Tim, is I understand that it’s frustrating because we don’t have, we can’t count on exactly the product we’re going to have every month, whether we’re going to have flower, what strains we’re going to have and all that, so I let them know-
Tim Pickett: That’s a good point.
Valerie Blaylock: Go ahead.
Tim Pickett: I was just going to say, we’re more consistent than before but still, we’re at the point where we’re still not, you still can’t go down and buy the strain you want every time every day.
Valerie Blaylock: Yeah, and so when I’m talking to our patients, I let them know that, can I mention the actual website or not?
Tim Pickett: Oh yeah, you can mention the website.
Valerie Blaylock: Okay. So Leafly has an amazing terpene profiler now. So terpenes and CBD and CBN and all of that, so what I do is I go, if I find something that I like, so Tim you and I were talking about the Durban Poison and how the Durban Poison was kind of helping my whole GI tract and that was part of it, and then when I started to mix in some of the CBG hemp flower where I did that two to one mix with the Durban Poison, that was amazing. But, Durban Poison for a couple months. so what I do is I go on Leafly and I look up Durban Poison and then I look up similar strains.
Chris Holifield: That’s a good idea.
Tim Pickett: Oh, and then you can go to the dispensaries and you can try to find similar strains.
Valerie Blaylock: Exactly.
Tim Pickett: Oh that’s a really good idea. Okay. So to back up just a little bit, because you mentioned that you work in our clinic and you see patients and for the listeners, it’s really important, and this is part of the reason why we wanted you to come on too because you’re unique amongst patient navigators because you’re not 22 and you have a perspective not only as a patient and an advocate of cannabis but experience in a way that is difficult. I just feel like the way that you present cannabis to patients is more comforting. Do you feel like that’s one of the things that you like to do because you’re really good at it and when you talk about the strains that you’re using and the terpenes and things like that, you’re into this.
Valerie Blaylock: Yeah. I am, actually. Honestly, I feel like, you know that old Remington commercial where the guy’s like, “I liked the company so much I bought it.” When I saw that you had a job opening, I became about pursuing that, because I love our clinic in that you have a very unique viewpoint. You are all about de-stigmatization first, and I think that that is absolutely critical. I’ve seen it in mental health when I worked up at Uni for eight years, and I see that. If you de-stigmatize it, patients actually tell you what their real experience is and you can actually connect and meet them where they are and help them shift to where they want to be. So for me, education, I love education. I am a freaking cannabis geek, I’m a vaporizer geek. I get obsessed about it. I’m looking into things.
So for me, honestly I’ve had people say, “What are you doing different? You are so different from a month ago from where you were.” Because I was really struggling with the pandemic and I stepped away from my previous job as a psychic reader, which I had done for almost 15 years, because that really helps me help others, and with the pandemic and with everything, I had to step away from that. I couldn’t keep myself as open. But I didn’t feel like I was being of service, and for me that’s huge. So the opportunity that you’ve given me to actually educate people and meet them where they are, some people, really, they just want give me the three times a day tincture, whatever it is, and that’s totally fine and I tell our clients, our patients that. If that’s where you want to be, just let us know and that’s where we’ll meet you. But if you want to be all into it like me and be a weirdo and all of that, we can meet you there too.
So that’s what I love about your perspective, Tim, is that the first thing that has to happen is that de-stigmatization and that look, I’m just like you and I’ve been where you are and I’m not going to make you feel stupid if I can absolutely help it. So I think it’s actually really an amazing opportunity.
Tim Pickett: I think that’s the key, is the destigmatization, that’s what I like about this podcast. We’re just talking about it like it’s kind of a normal thing. Now, what do you think about cannabis, and Chris this is kind of a question for everybody, we are all, the three of us especially, we’re all so deep in the cannabis culture in Utah and what we do, do you feel like we have a little bit of a warped view? Sometimes I think I’ve got a little bit of a warped view because it’s all cannabis all the time.
Chris Holifield: Absolutely, yeah.
Tim Pickett: And I’ve got to back up and say not everybody is in this world.
Chris Holifield: Especially when you find that one person that still has that warped idea that it’s like a gateway drug, that it’s going to open up these other doors for harder drugs, it’s like wow there’s still people like that out there.
Valerie Blaylock: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Like I don’t run into those people all the time or commonly anymore-
Chris Holifield: But when you do it’s like, what is going on here?
Tim Pickett: Yeah. I feel like that’s odd. And they probably look at us and say the same thing, like oh my gosh you’ve just drank the Kool-Aid.
Chris Holifield: “You’re just looking for a reason to get high.”
Tim Pickett: Yeah, you’re just using it as a reason to get high. It’s weird because, I don’t know as a patient, a lot of patients don’t use it all the time. Use it when you need it, don’t use it when you need it, you still need a card. I don’t have pain all the time, right? So Valerie, let’s get back to this use, because we talked about your use about the Durban Poison and then mixing hemp flower. So what’s your favorite, maybe a few quick questions here, what’s your favorite dry herb vaporizer?
Chris Holifield: What are you currently using?
Tim Pickett: All of them.
Valerie Blaylock: Yes.
Chris Holifield: Do you have a lot of them?
Valerie Blaylock: I do, actually.
Chris Holifield: That’s awesome.
Valerie Blaylock: Yeah. I actually have two Fireflies, which you just started using a little bit too, Tim, didn’t you?
Tim Pickett: Yeah. The Firefly is super cool, and you are the one who told me, one of the reasons the Pax isn’t … I don’t know there’s a silicone thing in the Pax, so the silicone absorbs the flavor, and then the next round or the next bowl of flower tastes like the old one.
Valerie Blaylock: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yep.
Tim Pickett: Because of the silicone. I didn’t know that.
Valerie Blaylock: Oh yeah.
Tim Pickett: No, I didn’t know that before.
Valerie Blaylock: It doesn’t bother, I know people in our clinic even, who absolutely love the Pax, and to be honest the Pax is really, really good for people who want just something fairly simple, fairly easy, and it’s really pretty easy to clean, there aren’t a whole lot of parts, it’s just pretty simple. So I think, honestly, all vaporizers have a place. Even the crappy $30, $40 dry herb vaporizers that are going to give you maybe two or three bowls and then you maybe go out.
Chris Holifield: If that.
Valerie Blaylock: I actually encourage people, especially people who have smoked for a really long time, even some of our older folks, like our old hippy kind of people, like that generation, which is not far from me, I’m 52, so I’m not calling anybody out on their age, just saying, I think that once you get a vaporizer in somebody’s hand and they can actually experience it and realize that man, I’ve been smoking and it’s really harsh, it’s like when I quit smoking-smoking and went to vaping, and then I would be around smokers and I’d be like, “Oh my god, I smelled like that all the time?”
So I think it really is about getting a vaporizer in somebody’s hand and letting them experience that. I also think that each vaporizer, it has it’s own quirks and if you don’t have somebody that is a little familiar with it, like I obsessively watch YouTube reviews and read stuff and all the reviews, but a lot of people don’t want to do that. So that’s why I kind of like what we do in clinic as well, which is that education part. Because most people, I love, so we have a packet that we give to our patients, and in that packet there is a couple of things, Tim, that I find incredibly helpful. The first one is that spectrum, that temperature spectrum for all of the-
Tim Pickett: The cannabinoids.
Chris Holifield: Like how high you’re burning it.
Valerie Blaylock: Exactly. And at the very top with combustion, there are three things that you can access, three. And they’re like 100 different combinations of terpenes and cannabinoids and all of that. So you blow past all that medicine, all of it, and all you get are those three, it’s like two cannabinoids and a terpene, right Tim?
Tim Pickett: Yes. Primarily you’re getting the TCH.
Valerie Blaylock: Correct.
Tim Pickett: That and the plant material in your lungs, which is no good. Which we talk a lot about on the podcast, like smoking, how they want to add smoking to the available list of delivery methods and the Utah Medical Association is against it and I agree with you, Valerie, the vaping is safer, and you need to experience it. If you’ve been smoking a long time, you really just need to experience it because it’s just different.
Valerie Blaylock: Correct.
Chris Holifield: But I was curious, when you were mentioning all the different vaporizers, so you truly believe that they each offer kind of something different. It’s helpful to have multiples. I’ve always been one type who’s been like, “Well if I’m only using it at home, the vaporizer I use at home, like I use a Volcano so I’m like oh I’m home and that’s all I need to use.” But you think I might benefit from some of these other ones?
Valerie Blaylock: Yeah. I do.
Chris Holifield: Do you think it burns different?
Valerie Blaylock: I do. So there are two different, technically three different, there’s the conduction, there’s convection, and then there’s hybrids. So conduction is like the Pax. If you have a pack or if you have any kind of conduction vaporizer, you want to grind your herb usually pretty fine and you want to pack it tight. So the reason for that is you want that herb in complete contact with that surface that’s going to heat up, because you want that herb to heat up evenly, so that you get all of the components. But in a convection, where it uses warm air circulating through the herb, you actually want to pack it looser and in bigger chunks because that gives it more surface area for the air to rotate over. So the way you pack things are going to be a little different. You’re going to stir a conduction kind of in the middle.
So it’s kind of like each individual vaporizer has it’s own combination of factors that once you get to learn or once you kind of know, so I usually go, if I really want a lot of flavor, or if I want a lot of terpenes, I would usually use a convection. So I’ll go to Firefly.
Chris Holifield: Do you think most people really know what their vaporizers are though? Do you think most people-
Tim Pickett: No way.
Chris Holifield: I don’t even know what a Volcano, is that a-
Valerie Blaylock: Well it depends. Do you have the digital one or do you have the manual one?
Chris Holifield: I have the manual one. I wish I had the digital one.
Valerie Blaylock: I know, right? So they both work, I think it’s primarily convection, but from my understanding it is a bit of a hybrid.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I think it’s a bit of a hybrid, but mostly the air passing through it, the convection.
Valerie Blaylock: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: That’s the design of it is supposed to me like that, right? Like the Firefly, because you’re sucking the air through the chamber, up into, just a little different than the Pax.
Valerie Blaylock: Yeah. I like the Firefly because, so let me back up a little. With the Firefly, with talking to you, Tim, about how I was actually combusting the herb, I’m like what the heck is going on here? I don’t understand. So it was literally how I was drawing, how I was packing, the fact that I didn’t stir sooner. One of the other things that I found was instead of stirring, I kind of turned the Firefly and just kind of tap it, and it kind of stirs up without even having to open up the thing.
Tim Pickett: Because you don’t pack it too tight.
Valerie Blaylock: Right. Exactly, exactly. But the thing that I love about the Firefly is the fact that it goes right from the oven, it goes across that, it has a glass vapor path. So glass doesn’t absorb, so it’s not going to build up on the glass like it does on the silicone, so you’re always going to have that consistent flavor and that consistent vapor production that goes over that glass. It’s never going to be adulterated in that form. So that’s one of the things that I like about the Firefly.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I think the flavor of the Firefly, now that I’ve tried it, it’s the superior flavor of a portable vaporizer. It’s the superior, if flavor is a big deal, and small, do you find that you’re using your, like with the Pax, it seems like you can pack it and you can use it multiple sessions, whereas you kind of get diminished taste, right? Taste isn’t as good the second session, but you’ve still got flower in there you want to use, so use it up. Whereas the Firefly’s more of a single session, because you don’t put as much in there, and I don’t know, you tasted it after and it’s just disgusting.
Valerie Blaylock: Well I think the thing that I like also about the Firefly is that it is on demand, too. It is probably the smallest, from my understanding, I don’t know every vaporizer out there, but the smallest convection oven that’s on demand. So with it taking three seconds to heat up and it cools down and even though the case still stays warm, the actual herb isn’t still getting combusted, or not combusted but vaporized.
Chris Holifield: In three seconds it heats up?
Valerie Blaylock: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Holifield: That is ridiculous.
Tim Pickett: So to kind of explain that a little bit, a Firefly has two buttons on the side, you don’t push the buttons, you just connect the buttons, and you’re showing us on the screen here but our listeners can’t see it. You connect the two by your fingers are the connection. In three to five seconds, it is hot and ready to inhale. When you let go, it goes off. It is either on or it is off. So people really like it. So unlike the Pax where you turn it on, the Pax you turn on and it stays on until you turn it off. The Firefly you turn it on every hit, essentially, and it turns off.
Yeah, this is a good conversation about kind of three different types of vaporizers, all portable, of course you have the Volcano which is the classic desktop vaporizer, which is great if you’re going to use it and you can afford it, and the Firefly which is an expensive, for a portable, but convection. The Pax which is conduction, and a little bit different, and then your hybrids which are various prices.
Valerie Blaylock: Exactly.
Tim Pickett: Have you ever used the DaVinci?
Valerie Blaylock: I haven’t. Sorry, I’m showing you my Extreme Q. This is an airizer. I’m sorry, I would like to speak with this.
Tim Pickett: What is that?
Valerie Blaylock: This is basically a Volcano, but for like $169 as opposed to $350.
Tim Pickett: What’s it called?
Valerie Blaylock: It’s the Arizer Extreme Q. It actually has a ceramic, it’s ceramic and glass element, it heats up, it’s convection, so it heats air through it, and you can either fill a bag or it has like a hookah tube. So this is what I use at home, because-
Tim Pickett: That’s cool.
Valerie Blaylock: I couldn’t justify $500.
Chris Holifield: So there really isn’t a difference. That’s going to work just as good as a Volcano.
Valerie Blaylock: Yeah, exactly. It does bags. It doesn’t work quite as well as the Volcano with bags. The Volcano, I don’t know, stores in… They’re ridiculous. They’ve been around forever. But something, I don’t know, the way it’s set up or whatever, the bag doesn’t get harsh after a while quite as quickly as the bag on the Extreme Q. So it’s just a thing, again, it’s just a thing. But if you’re going to use it at home and that’s the only place you’re going to use it and you sit in your chair next to your television, you set it up, you have a hookah, it’s basically a hookah type set up, you turn the fan on, it even has a little remote control that you can turn the fan on and off, you can turn the temperature up and down, that’s the one thing that I like about the Arizers. So Arizer is a smaller Canadian company and all of their devices, except for I think one the Air, have temperature control on the unit itself, which means that you don’t have to have an app, you don’t have to do anything fancy, you literally can change it degree by degree.
So by dialing that in, you can dial in the terpenes and the cannabinoids and all of those things that you want, specifically, degree by degree.
Tim Pickett: Okay. Explain that a little bit, because people don’t understand how the experience at 330 degrees or 350 degrees is different than it is at 450 degrees because of this terpene profile and where things are activated. Do you use this in medicating? The temperature?
Valerie Blaylock: Yes.
Tim Pickett: What’s the difference for you between, like a strain, you’re telling me that a strain, this is my experience too, a strain vaped at 350 degrees, totally different experience when vaped at 450 degrees.
Valerie Blaylock: Yep. 100%.
Tim Pickett: What’s the difference?
Valerie Blaylock: So I start fairly low. Also I use Celsius so I don’t know what the change is, but I start at between 150 and 155 Celsius which is probably 320, 350?
Chris Holifield: Oh wow. So you go low.
Valerie Blaylock: Yeah, I absolutely go low, and what I do is I hit, because at that really low, low temperature, you can actually activate the CBN, because CBN, Tim, it’s just barely over 310 or something like that. So it’s super low, but the two cannabinoids that we focus on, largely, is the CBD and the THC. But all of those sub cannabinoids have their own experience. So being able to access that at the really low temperatures, you start to really taste the flavors. So you’ll have that kind of diesel-y taste, or you’ll have that citrus-y taste. All those terpenes become active at different temperatures, and all those terpenes have different effects on your system.
So for me, that’s often the difference in the strains is the active terpenes, the active cannabinoids, and that is more impactful on my medical use than whether it’s a sativa or an indica or hybrid or whatever. So does that answer?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, totally. Do you find that lower temperatures are better for daytime use, higher temperatures at night? Or vice versa? Or is it just strain by strain?
Valerie Blaylock: I would say it’s strain by strain, largely. I don’t know that I would correlate temperature with time of use, only in so far as if you go higher, you’re going to have that more activation of the THC, so the higher you go, the more THC is active. So I guess in that specific thing, I would say probably yeah, lower temperatures would be better, because it wouldn’t activate that THC as much, at least in my experience. But the question that I asked you when we were doing my visit, when I asked you, “So have you had the experience of people with ADHD having paradoxical effects with sativas?” And you were like I don’t know.
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Valerie Blaylock: I haven’t captured that, you’re the weirdo. You’re the weirdo, I don’t have any weirdos. Because I find that a couple of the sativas, like Pineapple Express, every time knocks me on my butt and I sleep for a couple hours.
Chris Holifield: Oh wow.
Valerie Blaylock: And that is supposed to be one of the most energizing strains.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Valerie Blaylock: And I’ve had that with a couple other sativas where I’m just like …
Tim Pickett: Yeah. I think that just proves the point that it’s hard to get good dosing and delivery guidelines for everybody when it comes to plant based medicine in general, it really is keep a journal, try it out, figure it out, keep a low dose, and that’s okay.
Valerie Blaylock: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: We had a meeting with the department of health the other day about dosing and how providers are recommending dosing, and there is so much different opinion in the expert field of Utah. This meeting was with really a handful of people who are really involved in this space, and none of us can figure out how to dose.
Valerie Blaylock: Really?
Tim Pickett: A brand new patient. The pharmacists are like, “Well, you just kind of have to try it out.” And the providers are like, “Yeah, you’ve just got to kind of try it out.” And that’s different than other medicine, and it’s hard to design a legal system for that, when every strain is different, every temperature is different, think of all the possibilities.
Valerie Blaylock: Yeah. Absolutely. And how wonderful and amazing and fabulous is it that this one freaking plant, this one freaking plant has so many applications including cancer treatment. There are international studies that show improvement in lung cancer, inhaling the cannabis, it treats that. So how freaking amazing that this plant does so many things if you treat it with curiosity and respect and fascination and decide to even ask that question of, even if that person doesn’t want to get involved in any more than just an alternative thing, that opening to say I want something different than just a mindless medication, I just want to be able to take it and forget about it, I think it goes back to the fact that we’re not being mindful anymore, and we’re not being present, and being present with your medical treatment, being present with your medicine, I think makes a difference even if it’s just in your own resilience, in your own experience with that, your own empowerment.
I see it with herbs too. People go in wanting that quick fix, and you will never get it with an herb. You just won’t. So there’s this blend I think that is hard to get where you’ve got the medical professionals and you’ve got the people who are a little more whole plant and alternative and that kind of thing and it’s just like where do you come down on this. And it’s like the plant does all that, so you’ve got to come down on all that too. So yeah, totally. I can see where that would be really difficult.
Chris Holifield: I’m curious, do either of you have any 2021 cannabis predictions that you care to share? I figure since this is the first episode of the year, it might be kind of fun to look back at this episode, I don’t know, and say what predictions do we make, I don’t know.
Tim Pickett: That is a good question, Chris.
Chris Holifield: I guess I should have had you prepare for it I guess.
Tim Pickett: What do you think? Do you have any ideas?
Chris Holifield: What do I think?
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Well I definitely think this year is the year that it’s going to be decriminalized. I definitely believe that. So that’s going to completely open up the marketplace from state to state, that’s what I think is going to happen. That’s my prediction.
Tim Pickett: The federal government is going to decriminalize cannabis.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: That would be huge in 2021.
Chris Holifield: I believe it’s going to happen this year.
Tim Pickett: That’s amazing. I’m not going to go that far, Chris.
Chris Holifield: What do you think?
Tim Pickett: I think they’re going to have an independent study, I think the federal government is going to create an independent council to study the effects and to give us a report this year, and that’s as far as I think we’re going to go, is we’re going to get a report of how to do it, and then we’re going to hear at some point in the year there’s going to be all kinds of news articles about the possibilities and it’s going to increase the amount of talk we have about it, and it’s going to increase people’s awareness of it’s benefits.
I also, on the negative side, my second prediction is you’re going to see a couple of studies come out against the use of cannabis for things like increasing psychosis and anxiety and some of these things that are going to start the process of narrowing what cannabis is good for and what it might not be good for and we’re going to get a little clearer picture on that, or at least the beginning. Those are my two predictions.
Chris Holifield: Any thoughts on either of those, Valerie? Or any thoughts on other predictions? Do you care to weigh in at all?
Valerie Blaylock: Sure. I’m always up for future embarrassment. So I think, the fact is that this year the MORE Act was passed in the house, which means that at least in one part of our government, there is the political will to decriminalize, to make it more available for research, to make it more available in general. So I think that if the makeup of the senate changes a little bit, it is possible, not probable in my opinion, I agree with you Tim, I think it’s possible that we’ll see at least the beginnings of decriminalization this year. So in 2021.
So I would say I kind of agree with both of you, to be honest. I do think, Tim, that we are going to see some negative stuff come out. I think it needs to be framed appropriately though, because I do think that especially in mental health, there is some serious benefit in the use of cannabis. I think it’s just going to be a lot more precarious to find that point of homeostasis. So I do think that there’s going to be money in it, and I think that big pharma and people who want to do the money thing, it’s already happening, but I think established companies are going to want to get their hands on it, and I think that those of us that do connect with this as a plant and as plant medicine, we have to fight really, really hard to stop people from breaking out the components and making it into medicine, because it works better as the plant. So I think we’re going to have to decide and hold the line and I think 2021 is really when it’s going to start to make that shift.
Chris Holifield: I have a question, you were talking about the negative, your prediction was kind of the negative reviews, the negative things of cannabis. What are your thoughts on, let’s see if I can word this properly, because I don’t personally think cannabis is for everybody. I think it can react negatively to some people, so it’s kind of like if it reacts negatively to somebody is that a negative light of cannabis then or is that just negative of them? It’s kind of an interesting way to look at … I don’t know if that makes sense at all. I think so often, you and I, Tim, we want to glorify cannabis because it’s so wonderful, but I think sometimes we have to remember that it isn’t wonderful for everybody. Some people can’t handle it.
Tim Pickett: No. And I think that’s where, I honestly, it’s one of the things that I have to constantly remind myself about in this space is we’re constantly pushing for more and more access, more and more conditions to be added to the list and things like that, but because we can’t research it in the same way we can other things, we cannot find out the good and we cannot find out the bad and get more specific about what’s good and what’s bad. We all just say, well nobody’s died so let’s just all use it, let’s just give it to everybody. And I agree with you, Chris. I think this year, because we’re starting to see more specific research, we’ll now be able to start to see a narrowing of that, of who may benefit, who may not benefit. I think that might be one of the good ways to get medical providers in the medical establishment on board is if you can say, “Okay, look, we all agree, even in the cannabis field, we’re going to agree, this is who might not benefit.” Then the medical providers will be like, “Okay. See? Now we’ll get on board.”
Valerie Blaylock: I agree, honestly. I think one of the things that I hear just from my docs and from the people that I know is, “Well we don’t have enough data. Well we don’t have enough data. Well we don’t have enough data.” Okay, I get that. So how do we get more data without it being decriminalized, without us being able to have more research studies and the other thing about research studies is it depends on the question you ask too. What are you trying to capture? If you go in trying to capture the positive, you’re going to capture the positive. If you go in trying to capture the negative, you’re going to capture the negative. So I think that it’s super important to put whatever data that we do get into context and not just say, “Oh well yes it causes psychosis.” Or, “Yes, it causes anxiety.” Or whatever that is.
And I think that that’s one of the things, Tim, that I like about your viewpoint, honestly, is even though you are pushing, one of the things that you’re very clear about is we’re here to help the patient. And if I hear something that I am concerned about, I’m going to tell you. Or I’m going to tell the provider. And then the provider is going to delve into that. So I think that’s one of the things that’s really good about having cannabis providers, QMPs in specific, is that that’s all you do. That’s all you do. And if we can capture the data in some way, even if it’s just the subjective data, and get that to the docs, that right there is going to be a huge key.
Chris Holifield: I agree.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I totally agree. This is a good — thank you, Valerie.
Valerie Blaylock: You’re welcome.
Chris Holifield: There’s been a lot of interesting stuff discussed on this episode, I think it’s been very informative. I learned a lot, shoot, I want to go out and get some more vaporizers now, now I feel like I’m missing out and I need to add a couple more to my collection.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. Absolutely. I’m glad we had the conversation about some specifics about vaporizing, because I think that we haven’t had that talk on the podcast yet, Chris, and this should be helpful hopefully for a lot of people who are curious, that curiosity. Yeah, destigmatize vaporizing cannabis right here-
Valerie Blaylock: Right now.
Tim Pickett: That’s right.
Valerie Blaylock: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: What’s going on in Utah news? Anything that we need to discuss on this episode, Tim, that patients need to be aware of or anything?
Tim Pickett: So as of the release of this podcast, your letter is no longer valid.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, this will be January 1st, this episode, so new year.
Tim Pickett: So your letter is no longer valid. If you do not have a medical card in Utah, you are using cannabis illegally today, and I’m sorry to say that, but it is true. So that’s the biggest, I think that and then you have to have purchased, by statute, you have to have purchased your cannabis in Utah in order for it to be legal, whether everybody is going to follow that or not, that’s just the law. How they’re going to prove you bought it here, we don’t quite know. But those are two huge changes.
Chris Holifield: I would imagine the packaging, all those stickers and receipts and blah, blah, blah.
Tim Pickett: Right.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, so those are the two big announcements I see. The legislative session is going to start and then they’re going to discuss a few tweaks to the law there, but nothing is set in stone yet.
Chris Holifield: I wanted to mention, there’s finally ounces. You can buy an ounce at Beehive. Beehive has ounces, so that’s very good to know. They have a sativa and they have an indica blend, or not a blend but two different strains available. Yeah. Pay attention, I think even Sugar House Select is going to be dropping some flower off soon here, keep an eye on Instagram, that’s where I try to tell people, watch on Instagram, get their text messages, whatever way to connect so you can keep an eye when flower is dropping in all these places because that stuff is flying off the shelves.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. And I guess as a potential teaser, we probably will have a big announcement in the next couple weeks, utahmarijuana.org, Utah Therapeutic Health Center, potentially going to Utah county. So that’s in the works.
Chris Holifield: There you go, Tim. Do we have any other questions for Valerie or should we let her get going or anything else you guys wanted to talk about on this episode?
Tim Pickett: Not me.
Valerie Blaylock: I’m good.
Tim Pickett: Valerie, I’ll see you soon.
Valerie Blaylock: Oh no, that’s terrifying.
Chris Holifield: Can listeners, do you have an Instagram or anything that people can connect with you? In case people wanted to reach out and say hello or thanks for something you said, do you have an email address, or I don’t know.
Valerie Blaylock: Yeah. You can even send it to valerie@utthc.com
Tim Pickett: Valerie@utthc.com, there you go.
Valerie Blaylock: Absolutely. Reach out to me.
Chris Holifield: And Tim, how can listeners connect with you or find out more about what you have going on?
Tim Pickett: Well for us, Utah in the Weeds is found at utahmarijuana.org. We’ve got all the podcast episodes there, and summaries of them all, we’re definitely pretty much caught up now with all the episodes, and that’s the great place to connect with me, see the articles that we write and connect if you have questions about your letter converting to a card this year and getting legal again, definitely reach out to us there, you can chat with us online, but utahmarijuana.org. How about you, Chris? How about your other podcast?
Chris Holifield: My other podcast, I am Salt Lake podcast, iamsaltlake.com, go give that one a listen. It’s a fun podcast. That’s actually how I met Tim, I probably say that on every episode and everybody’s getting sick of hearing that, but it’s true. I’m having so much fun on that meeting all these people in Utah, not only people in the cannabis game, but we’re talking to food truck owners, restaurant owners, bartenders, anybody, right? So it’s been neat to see the different sides of Utah and different sides of Salt Lake City by doing that. But I also want to mention, if anybody is interested in coming on the show, to go to utahmarajuina.org, like you were even mentioning I think on one of the episodes, Tim, is even hit up the chat, right? They can go to the chat and hit somebody up and say, hey, I’m a patient, or I’m a cultivator, or whatever, and I want to come on the podcast, and we would probably let you come on, right?
Tim Pickett: Absolutely.
Chris Holifield: One more thing I want to mention, we have a voicemail line, we haven’t gotten any voicemails yet, it’d be cool if we got some. We’re thinking of just kind of starting this if anybody has questions like for Tim or myself, or questions about cannabis in Utah, or topic ideas, whatever, we might play the voicemail on the podcast, and that number is 385 215-9557. So on that note, make sure to subscribe in whatever podcast app you’re listening to this in, go check out utahmarijuana.org and iamsaltlake.com. Thank you again, Valerie, and as Tim likes to say …
Tim Pickett: Stay safe out there, guys.
https://beehivefarmacy.co/
In the final episode of the 2020 calendar year, Chris and Tim kick back and review the year. They talk about the highs and lows of their first year as hosts of Utah in the Weeds.
What they most appreciate about the podcast is its conversational nature. [01:57] Tim and Chris get to bring on guests from throughout the Medical Cannabis industry and just talk shop. Utah in the Weeds’ conversational tone makes it easily relatable to listeners yet still very informative.
Tim mentioned how doing the podcast has really benefited him personally. [02:56] He’s learned a lot by talking to cannabis movers and shakers. He has also been able to humanize those people rather than just thinking of them as political figures. Tim has even been able to use the newly acquired knowledge to help other QMPs.
Early on, Chris and Tim hosted the very first person to legally purchase Medical Marijuana in Utah. [05:57] They also had the first card-carrying patient on their show. Utah in the Weeds has truly been at the forefront of getting information out to patients and providers alike.
Throughout the podcast, Tim and Chris reminisce about the many patients they’ve talked to. Most are regular men and women you would meet on the street. A lot of them are LDS, which is important in the sense that the Church has come out in favor of Medical Cannabis when used appropriately and according to the law. [07:37]
Tim and Chris rounded out the podcast talking about various products, how these are prescribed, and everything from available stock to pricing. [16:08] They generally agreed that the number of card-carrying patients will eclipse 100,000 in 2021.
The podcast concluded with a brief discussion on utahmarijuana.org. [32:26] They have already opened a couple of pharmacies and are working on more. Chris provided a podcast phone number that patients can call with specific questions to be answered in upcoming podcasts.
Chris: So this is 39.
Tim: Welcome to episode 39. 38B.
Chris: Yeah, we’re going to do a proper introduction here. We’re going to welcome everybody out today to episode 39 of Utah in the Weeds. This is the final episode of 2020, Tim.
Tim: Yeah, I’m excited about that. We need to wrap this year up.
Chris: You’re excited that 2020’s over, it’s the last episode? What are you excited about?
Tim: Yes. All of the above. I mean, I’m excited about talking to you and really kind of going through a little bit of 2020, recap a few of our favorite episodes, talk about what’s happened in the cannabis space in Utah 2020, preview maybe a little bit of what’s going to happen in 2021, but this has been an epic year, essentially for everybody, right?
Chris: Well, especially trying to keep a podcast together when you and I didn’t even really know each other that well when this whole thing started.
Tim: No, we didn’t know each other hardly at all.
Chris: So to try to keep it together, it’s been… the feedback from the community, from listeners, from your patients, from the patients that we’ve had on here has been ridiculously awesome.
Tim: I think we’ve done pretty good. Like you said, we didn’t know each other at all a year ago. We have our first episode in February. I was talking to somebody today about our first episode. I did not go back and listen to our first episode.
Chris: We should go back and listen.
Tim: I’m hopeful we’ve gotten a little bit better.
Chris: Yeah. People have pointed that out actually.
Tim: Yeah.
Chris: Actually I think it was Josh last week on episode 38 when we talked to him down at Deseret Wellness. He was saying, you and I, we’ve come together, we’ve figured out kind of how this goes. You and I are figuring out a rhythm, how to talk.
Tim: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And I think that the quality of the discussions is really good. What I like about this podcast for me now is this is like conversational cannabis, right?
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: Because in clinic with patients, there’s a certain feel to the conversation, this patient-provider relationship. An education video that I do, there’s a different relationship, and there’s this… not saying it’s a fake persona, but it’s not as conversational as this, you and I talking together, talking to people, just kind of shooting the shit, figuring out what’s going on in the cannabis space. So that’s what I’ve really enjoyed about this podcast, and it was really important to me to keep it going despite the COVID.
Chris: What was some of the things… I mean, I guess you kind of just said some of the benefits of doing this over this last year of 2020 for you, but by doing this, what has been some rewards, or unexpected rewards even?
Tim: Definitely, and we talked about this last time down in Provo, after we had finished recording, the fact that we kind of get access to these people in the know, that we were able to have a conversation back early in the cannabis legalization in Utah with Rich Oborn, and we were able to have a conversation with Desiree Hennessy from Utah Patients. That type of access has been… well, I mean, there’s countless… thinking about all these people we’ve talked to, and getting to meet them and learn about their perspective on what’s going on in the cannabis space, that’s been the biggest reward.
Chris: Humanizing them a little bit too has been nice too really, because I think a lot of times we just look at them as these political figures, up on Capitol Hill.
Tim: Up on The Hill and working for the state, or there are pharmacists behind the scenes in this scary cannabis space, right?
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: So do you feel like you’ve gotten… as a provider with utahmarijuana.org, I’ve really benefited from that knowledge, and it’s translated into me being able to help different QMPs or patients or different people. As somebody who doesn’t… your full-time gig isn’t in the cannabis space.
Chris: I wish, right?
Tim: Right? I mean, it’s kind of becoming that way.
Chris: Yeah, yeah, with this podcast maybe someday.
Tim: What’s been the benefit for you?
Chris: Well, honestly, a lot of similar things, like you mentioned, I mean, it’s just been nice going into Beehive Farmacy, and that we chatted with Bijan from the pharmacy there, and now I can say, “Hey, what’s up, man?” He knows who I am. I’m not just some person lost in the sea of crowd of everybody else, all 33,000 cannabis users or cardholders in the state of Utah. So that’s been nice. I mean, just really getting to be a little more involved in the industry, getting to see some of these grow operations that I’ve seen, that I would have never had an opportunity to see if I was just not doing the podcast. So that’s been worth it right there for me.
Tim: Yeah, that’s cool. I think that getting that insight from your perspective for listeners, hopefully has been really helpful. That’s why I think we make a pretty good team on the podcast.
Chris: Absolutely.
Tim: You get these two different perspectives.
Chris: You’re the QMP and I’m just the patient.
Tim: Just the QMP. You’re the important piece of the puzzle. 33,000-
Chris: Is that how many there are now?
Tim: Yeah, there are more than that I think, legal cannabis users in Utah, and I’ve kind of lost track over the past couple of months because the number’s gotten so big. But literally there were no cannabis patients in Utah last year. No cannabis cardholders last year. There were a few letter holders, but all of those people are cardholders now. The Department of Health has done a lot of work this year.
Chris: And then, remember David Sutherland who we had on episode two, wasn’t he-
Tim: Oh, yeah.
Chris: Was he the first cardholder?
Tim: Yeah, he’s card number one.
Chris: Card number one. But then we had Mario, he was the first customer or something like that, right?
Tim: Yes, the first person to purchase legal cannabis in Utah was Mario. And that was a fun interview too. And I’ve talked to him quite a few more times because he was working up at the True North pharmacy, Modern Earth.
Chris: It’s kind of been fun to see these people that we connect with online or through the podcast, seeing them out to these local pharmacies.
Tim: Yes. I saw the guy we interviewed at Wholesome-
Chris: Phil?
Tim: And I see Mindy Madeo–
Chris: Yeah, Mindy, yeah.
Tim: I see her once in a while up there in Bountiful, and we’ve associated with these people definitely more than once. There’s a small community of people that are now… we communicate more and bounce ideas off of each other. We talk about the new legislation that’s coming out. But we’ve had a lot of really good interviews. The patient interviews we’ve had, other than David, were excellent too.
Chris: Which one off the top of your head, did any of them stick out?
Tim: The guy with the voices.
Chris: The voices?
Tim: Remember that guy? Long-haired, LDS guy. He’s a plumber.
Chris: Oh, yes.
Tim: I cannot think of his name.
Chris: Zac. Was it Zac?
Tim: Yes.
Chris: Great guy. I love listening to how he was mixing up all the different hemp strains. Is that what you call them, hemp strains I guess?
Tim: Yeah. And then the colitis, Ryan Thomas.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: Another great interview. Just such good perspectives on the Mormon community and cannabis, and how there are pockets of openness, I guess.
Chris: So we’re a Utah podcast. We’ve had some Mormons on the podcast. They say they’re strict Mormons. I mean, the Mormon church is pretty cool with that right?
Tim: I suspect we’ve had a lot of Mormons on the podcast.
Chris: Well, yeah.
Tim: But we didn’t ask.
Chris: Well, true, true. They’re okay with it, right, as long as it’s used medicinally?
Tim: Yeah. The church officially came out and is in support of medical cannabis, is not in support of inhaled medical cannabis. There are something differing opinions about medical cannabis in the church population.
Chris: Okay.
Tim: The church is officially for medical cannabis when used appropriately and not raw cannabis flower inhaled. I think there are some patients who are LDS who use flower and who are okay with that, and they’ve made their own choices. But there’s always that with any, I think, organized religion, there’s always the word from the church and the rule, and then there’s always a little bit of fringe.
Chris: I don’t think it should be any different though than getting any other prescription. I can go down to CVS and get a prescription. It shouldn’t be any different with the Mormon church, right?
Tim: No.
Chris: If I got an Adderall prescription or any pain pills or anything.
Tim: Right, that should be okay.
Chris: It’s the same thing really.
Tim: And we’ve had the discussion with a lot of LDS patients frankly about that, and about how their family is really supportive. Come to find out, they were scared to talk to people, and then well, wait, Aunt Mabel, she’s doing it too. What other interviews really stood out to you over this year?
Chris: I’m pulling them up here actually. You know, honestly, my favorite ones were going out and visiting Shawn at both grow locations. The one he was at in Murray, the first one in Murray, and then when we got to go out to Payson. Heck of a drive down there, but I think those ones really stuck out for me because that was kind of always what I loved about podcasting. One of the ideas when I first even got into this whole thing was I want to go see them in their domain.
Tim: Yeah, in the element.
Chris: In their element.
Tim: Well, Mike Rodriguez, the same thing, when we went to this different experience, but really fun to go there, tour his place, and yeah, those were really fun podcasts.
Chris: You talk about payment, right, where, “Oh, is it worth doing the podcast?” Experiencing that is worth it, man. I would have never got to see Mike’s hemp farm probably.
Tim: Yeah, that’s true.
Chris: I probably would have never connected with, maybe through Instagram.
Tim: Right, but you wouldn’t have even known where it was.
Chris: Exactly.
Tim: Right?
Chris: So those are probably some of my favorite ones. I’m looking through here. 38 episodes. We had Jack, he was a 19-year-old. That was a fun one too.
Tim: Oh, yeah, that made me a little nervous.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: If anybody goes back and listens to that, you’ll hear in my voice a little nervousness because I was concerned that Jack was illegal, and I went right from the recording to Rich Oborn, and I cornered Rich and talked to him and said, “Hey, we need…” In fact, I had talked to an attorney on the way to Rich’s house, should we release the episode or not, and come to find out, Jack’s a legal cannabis user under 21, but again, good opportunity to learn a thing or two, even for me who a lot of people consider the expert in the industry, and I should know all the rules. But that episode was fun. Yeah, looking back, that’s crazy.
Chris: You know what I think the craziest thing to me about this whole year, 2020, though is how cannabis marijuana has been frowned upon forever, really. All the 1900s pretty much, right? All of a sudden in 2020, it was considered an essential business.
Tim: Yeah.
Chris: I mean, really in all states.
Tim: That’s right. You’ve had dispensaries and pharmacies open in every state. Yeah, they consider it totally against the law 20 years ago, wouldn’t have even have crossed anybody’s mind.
Chris: I mean, you got a little nug in your pocket, you’d probably be thrown in jail.
Tim: Yeah, thrown in jail. And now, 2020, global pandemic, let’s keep the pharmacies and dispensaries open. We’re going to need those.
Chris: What do you think of that?
Tim: I mean, I guess it just makes sense to me now. I feel like this brings up another whole kind of topic. I feel like I am neck deep in cannabis all the time. My entire life right now is marijuana, cannabis, talking about it, podcasting about it, videoing about it, teaching people about it, learning about it. I live in this world that is just all cannabis all the time. I’m constantly having to remind myself that the rest of the world is not quite where I’m at. It’s not quite as normal for everybody else to just be walking down the street with flower and vaporizers and all of this going on in your mind and stuff.
Tim: I guess back to your question or point about what do we think about cannabis, and where we’re at now in this essential business, these dispensaries being essential businesses. To me, that’s just, “Of course they are.”
Chris: Sure.
Tim: Because that’s just the paradigm I live in. You kind of have both sides. You have the I am Salt Lake side, which really got into the local economy and the local business, you saw that more than I did.
Chris: Saw the local business…
Tim: Yeah, the local restaurants hurting.
Chris: Oh, sure. Yeah, with COVID?
Tim: Yeah.
Chris: Yeah, because of everything shutting down, yeah.
Tim: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris: The local pharmacies, they’re doing all right though because people have got to stay medicated. Is that kind of what you’re talking about?
Tim: Yeah, I’m talking about it’s a dichotomy. It’s really almost polar opposites.
Chris: Sure.
Tim: You’ve had this cannabis industry in Utah that has thrived all year.
Chris: Oh, sure, sure, sure. They’re hyping it up. They’re talking about it. They’re saying, “This is us.” And then when I’m interviewing for people in the local small businesses, like this last week we had the Cluck Truck food truck, local food truck, and they’re just talking about, “Hey, there’s not as many events going on. We can’t get out there,” and so they’re struggling, so you almost get depressed after talking with some of those.
Tim: Yeah, but you talk to Narith, when you talk to Bijan…
Chris: Yeah, I’m excited about that, man. I’m just like, “Yeah.”
Tim: And these guys are like, “We can’t grow enough flower. We can’t stock the flower. We can’t stock the products. It’s just going off the shelves.” It’s so crazy to be in both worlds this year.
Chris: I also think Salt-Baked City, we need to make sure that everybody takes advantage of that resource because…
Tim: Yeah, Cole does a really good job.
Chris: I was stoked on talking with him on the podcast too to find out a little bit about that, because I’d really been enjoying his site with… I mean, he was breaking down terpenes and he was breaking down…
Tim: Yes, there’s a couple of us… I feel like you and I with the podcast, me with utahmarijuana.org, and Cole with Salt-Baked City, we’re trying to take information and disseminate information about the cannabis, like what’s going on in Utah for everyone in a pretty legitimate way. I think he does it in a really legitimate way too. It’s not over-the-top bong rips and…
Chris: I was going to mention, so he did an article here, $14 million is what Utah from March until the end of April, so almost the entire year there, because obviously there’s some months we lost… so $14 million in sales. I don’t know if you’ve heard these numbers at all.
Tim: No, I haven’t.
Chris: I wanted to see if there was a graph on here. There was a graph I saw online showing the amount of each cultivator group, so Dragonfly, how much… They grew the most obviously in 2020. A lot of these other pharmacies that have grow… what’s the correct term that you’ve used if you have a grow license, just a grow license.
Tim: Yeah, a grow license. I mean, there are eight grow licenses in the state of Utah, and I know of four that grow… five. I believe Wholesome is starting to grow now. Zion, of course, we’ve purchased flower from Zion. They have products. Tryke, they were big. They’ve produced a lot of flower.
Chris: I think they were one of the next biggest ones that grew.
Tim: Right. And Dragonfly. Then there’s Harvest. Is Harvest… and then there’s these small brands like Sugar House Selects, which is really part of Zion. And Harvest, which I think is part of another grow license type. That’s when it starts getting a little fuzzy. 2021, Chris, we need to have more growers and processors on the podcast, and break that part down.
Chris: You know what we should make here is put a map up, even at one of your offices, it could be fun to show the main growers, like Tryke for example, and then who they grow for, or like how Zion grows for Sugar House.
Tim: Right.
Chris: And kind of break it down and show little graph or something, kind of just show who everybody’s coming out of. What were some of your favorite strains this year? You guys sample a few, I’m sure. Or not sample, I mean…
Tim: Definitely, I think Fatso’s just the favorite, you know?
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: It’s so strong, and really, really good for pain, but also, man, a dose of insight. If you’re ever looking for a dose of insight, Fatso is a reasonable strain just because it’s so strong on the head change. And then I talk to patients all the time. I mean, I know Sundae Driver’s just been a nice, even-keel strain.
Chris: It’s not a bad one.
Tim: Not a bad one. Maxine, another one that was very good for what I needed. And Pink Starburst Petrol-
Chris: I haven’t had a chance to try that one out yet.
Tim: Yeah, they had just a small run of it. So those are it. How about you?
Chris: Well, I was going to mention the Fatso. I was only able to pick up like an eighth one time at Beehive, so hopefully I’ll be able to get in on some of that the next time that they do that. But the Garanimals, I don’t know if you’ve tried that one.
Tim: No.
Chris: That one’s been nice. That one’s really nice. I’m more of an Indica person, so anything with a higher Indica. My mind is blank on that. I should have had this more prepared. There was a Zkittlez one. I don’t know how to pronounce… that I tried one time. I tried ample times. That’s been really nice. I mean, there’s a lot, but I would have to say Fatso and the Garanimals probably were the top for me.
Tim: It’ll be nice when you have a little more consistency and you can say, “Well, my go-to is this.”
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: Right, “My go-to is this strain,” and it’s always available at the pharmacy. It’s always available. That’s been a problem all year.
Chris: Well, because you never get the same thing, right?
Tim: Yeah.
Chris: Like you can never get the same stuff, the same… Night Terror was another good one that I really enjoyed by Tryke. The Night Terror by Tryke, get a good night’s sleep on that one.
Tim: Yeah, and wouldn’t it be nice to have that in the jar all the time and not have to worry about… and I think that that’s… hopefully in 2021, it might take another year though after that before there’s enough consistency in the market, because remember in the very beginning, there was no flower, for like a month. Dragonfly had a little bit and they sold out first day, and then they didn’t have any for a while. And now, it seems like you can always find some type of flower.
Chris: Yes and no. This actually just happened yesterday. Let me give you a little story here. I was searching for some Indica. I noticed that Wholesome got some Indica in. I went in there, found out they sold out in two hours.
Tim: Oh, wow.
Chris: You know what I mean? Because that was the only Indica. Everything else has been Sativa or hybrid through Utah, right?
Tim: Yup.
Chris: So it’s kind of like whoever is releasing Indica right now is just going to cash in probably because it doesn’t even matter who’s putting it out there if it’s Indica. So they sold out in two hours. So you got to keep an eye on their website. You got to keep an eye and put it on hold.
Tim: You know the other thing we learned, and Blake Smith brought this to my attention last week. That was that they told the growers there was going to be about 6,000 patients the first year in 2020. It’s my understanding now that the Department of Agriculture, another good episode we should look for with the Department of Agriculture, but they told the growers, “Hey, build up to… build for 6,000 patients, or at the most, 16,000 patients.”
Chris: Which I think they’re growing for, and that’s about all they can supply.
Tim: Right, and that’s about whether they can supply right now. So are they ahead of where they were supposed to be or behind? Of course they’re behind for what’s reality. Are they ahead for COVID? I don’t know. Maybe they grew more than they pushed and pushed, but regardless, just interesting that 2020 brought such a huge demand in product, very low supply and sporadic supply. And then there’s all these other normal factors that were into play too, how many patients were supposed to be, and how many patients ended up being legal. I think the program has been hugely successful.
Chris: By the end of 2021, I predict over 100,000 patients.
Tim: That’s more than 3% of the Utah population.
Chris: You were mentioning that, yeah. I mean, if we’re almost to 40 right now.
Tim: Yeah, you figure in Oklahoma they had 70,000 the first year. I guess we might be on track for that type of momentum. It’d be interested to see what 2021 brings. There’s that new legislation that they’re trying to pass, and we’ve talked about that a little bit, the expansion of potentially allowing non-QMP medical providers the ability to write for up to 15 providers. Some pretty good push back. There was a new idea floated today about having all medical providers in Utah do education about cannabis. I would support that. Basically make us all do some type of cannabis education.
Chris: I love it.
Tim: We didn’t get any in school. Wouldn’t you approve of that? You’re a primary care provider. It would be nice if they were mandated.
Chris: How would you require that though?
Tim: So we all have to renew our license every year, and we all have to renew our controlled substance education, so Utah requires me-
Chris: So all doctors.
Tim: All doctors, PAs, nurse practitioners, everybody who prescribes controlled substances in Utah, you have to do a controlled substance education. It’s basically a way for us to learn to not prescribe narcotics.
Chris: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim: That’s the whole point.
Chris: So they could even just throw on, “Hey, watch this four-hour video on cannabis.”
Tim: Yup. Boom, an extra two hours.
Chris: Two hours, whatever.
Tim: Everybody is required. Here’s the Utah law, here’s some basics about the pros and cons of cannabis, two hours. Everybody’s required to do it. I think that is the beginning. That could be the beginning of the normalization in medicine.
Chris: Well, yeah, absolutely. And especially once they start doing testing and once they can start doing that, and then open it up to insurance companies.
Tim: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris: It’s going to happen. 2021, we have a lot of stuff, both in Utah and in the United States, a lot of stuff’s going to happen.
Tim: Yeah, the MORE Act passed this year.
Chris: Well, in the House. Then there was another one I haven’t fully researched.
Tim: Yeah, I was just reading a little bit about it, that the Senate has passed a research bill that will allow some research to be done on cannabinoids. That needs to happen too, because the research, although there’s plenty, we’ve talked a lot about this on the podcast. There’s not good research on medical dosing for cannabis. A lot of the research that’s been done is on guys who smoke five joints a day, and that’s just not the average patient.
Chris: What do you think the average person smokes, uses, vapes? What do you think an average patient goes through?
Tim: Are we talking about… I think there’s two types of patients. There’s a million types of patients. Don’t take offense to this anybody, but I think if you were to broadly categorize, you have patients that are really just using it medicinally. Then you have patients that are using it medicinally and what you would call adult use as well. I think there’s a pretty big difference in use in those two populations, because a patient is probably not going to require more than 50 milligrams per day of THC.
Chris: You think so?
Tim: Yeah, I think it’s strong.
Chris: 50 milligrams?
Tim: Yeah. I don’t think people need… I think most of the time 10 to 20 milligrams dose two or three times a day is probably a pretty good dose for most people.
Chris: Now are these AIDS patients, cancer patients, or are these just people with a little bit of pain in the…
Tim: I’m just talking about the big percentage of patients.
Chris: Sure, sure.
Tim: This is definitely not everybody.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: Maybe it would just be the pain patients, and it would just be the people who just use it medically. The Sutherlands of the world. He’s a five milligram in the morning. Sorry if I’m really repeating his podcast, but he’s a five milligram in the morning. Okay, so let’s take a generic patient.
Chris: Okay.
Tim: Five milligrams in the morning, five, 10 milligrams in the afternoon, 10, 20 milligrams at night. People can stay on that type of dosing for a long time. But then you have this other really broad category of people who use it medicinally and a little bit recreationally, and I think the average is probably half an ounce a month.
Chris: You think in just a month, a half an ounce in a month? I’m just curious. The point I’m trying to get at here is I feel bad for some of these patients that need to go through a lot because of these prices in Utah, but what’s interesting is I actually just read an article… Pennsylvania’s even higher than Utah.
Tim: Oh, as far as cost.
Chris: As far as cost. They’re the most expensive, I guess, right now.
Tim: Like $80 an eighth?
Chris: About that, yeah.
Tim: Well, and then we talked to Jeremy from Deseret Wellness who talked about… well, if you took an… or Bijan said the same thing, “If you took an ounce of flower now or if you took an eighth here, $60, with a $3 transaction charge, and you added 21% sales tax on it,” which if it was recreational, Utah state would charge sales tax, “then all of a sudden, now you’re $70, 80 an eighth.”
Chris: Hm.
Tim: And so the prices get worse if it goes recreational. They don’t get better. That’s the argument.
Chris: Well, and I think everybody compares everything to Colorado, and Colorado’s been around since 2014 they went recreational, so yeah, you can get an ounce for under 200 bucks there, right?
Tim: Yeah, and if you want to really to Oregon, you can get an ounce, same ounce for 180.
Chris: But yeah, it is what it is, I guess… how do you even answer that? I think if I was a patient that I was going through that much, I would probably live in a state… I can’t afford to live in Utah.
Tim: We have this conversation in clinic once in a while. A patient comes in and they require three ounces of flower a month. Well, how do they afford that?
Chris: Well, that’s what I’m wondering.
Tim: And so you don’t want them to divert the product and be buying it for their friends, but at the same time, can they really afford that amount?
Chris: Tell me, is anybody really buying that much flower?
Tim: I don’t know. That’s a good question for the pharmacies.
Chris: I know we can’t get too deep into that because of HIPAA, but I’d be curious what some of the…
Tim: Well, I know patients are running up against the state max. I guarantee it.
Chris: What’s the state max here?
Tim: Four ounces of flower-
Chris: A month.
Tim: And 20 grams of THC concentrate. That’s 20 1-gram cartridges a month.
Chris: You think people are going up against that?
Tim: No, I guarantee they’re going up against it, because we have patients who use the state max every month. Every month. Not in concentrates.
Chris: How are they paying for it? That’s what I want to know.
Tim: I don’t know. I don’t ask because if they need it, they need it.
Chris: How do you afford this?
Tim: If they’re selling it to their brother, then that’s against a lot of laws.
Chris: Well, let’s hope people aren’t doing that.
Tim: Yeah. I mean, we can’t spend too much time on that, but…
Chris: Okay, here’s a question: do doctors sit around and think about that, like, “Oh, if I prescribe this guy this Adderall, is he going to be selling it to his buddies?”
Tim: Oh, that for sure.
Chris: Do they really think that?
Tim: Yes.
Chris: Okay, because I was wondering, I was trying to compare it, you know?
Tim: Yes. Controlled substance database. This is another issue. So if you need Adderall and I’m going to prescribe Adderall, then I’ll look you up in the controlled substance database, make sure 1) you’re not getting Adderall from somebody else before I prescribe it to you, and then, yeah, you want to be sure that the dosing is accurate and you don’t want to overdose. You want to be very careful with that. So cannabis is different because people choose their own dose.
Tim: So with Adderall, it’s 10 milligrams twice a day or 10 milligrams once a day. You get 30 pills every month and that’s all you get. Then you can’t sell them because if you need them, you’re going to need all 30.
Chris: And you don’t go back to the doctor and ask for more.
Tim: That’s right, because you’re in the controlled substance database, and that makes sure that you don’t get them from multiple people.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: Now cannabis, different. You get to choose how much you take. We just get to set the parameters.
Chris: So why does this set the parameter they do? Is that just to kind of discourage people from selling it?
Tim: Yeah.
Chris: Where do they come up with those numbers?
Tim: They come up with the numbers from other states.
Chris: Okay.
Tim: Other states of set these boundaries. In Florida, we talked to Melanie Bone. Remember that interview, and she was talking about in Florida they have a seven month renewal period. They can only use flower if they’ve tried and failed something else. They have less concentrates they can buy than here. Just a different program, different hodge podge of what those doctors and scientists and legislators.
Chris: It’s interesting, I mean, Utah’s not the only state that came up with some goofy laws. I was listening on this same podcast, this Pro Pot, I think is the name of the podcast, they were talking about in Virginia, I guess, just opened up dispensaries. Sounds very similar to Utah. They don’t even have flower yet, I guess, either, but they have the gelatinous cubes and they have the cards and smoking’s not allowed and all that. So it’s interesting to see it’s not just Utah that are coming out with these medical programs that are kind of a little different than we’ve seen in California and Oregon and stuff.
Tim: Yeah, and we had this year… I mean, weed was on the ballot like crazy. Multiple states went recreational or adult use. Multiple more states went with medical programs. And so, yeah, like you said, it’s coming. It does seem like it’s accelerating.
Chris: Well, and with the new presidency, he’s already said he wants to decriminalize cannabis, so let’s see where he can take things. I don’t know, we’ll see.
Tim: We’ll see.
Chris: Yeah. But it’s going to be interesting, 2021. I’m excited. I’m excited for the podcast. I want to start doing some live recordings, some more video recordings. I know we’ve talked about that on the last episode with Josh.
Tim: Yeah, doing some live, and you showed me your Mevo.
Chris: Yeah, the Mevo. I want to do some Mevo recording.
Tim: So when we’re in our office and we can live stream them on… We’ll just put it up on utahmarijuana.org. So 2021, we’re going to live stream some episodes. We’re going to give it a shot. It does appear based on the fact that we made this work even during a global pandemic, Chris, that we’re going to make it through 2021, right?
Chris: Oh, yeah.
Tim: So, another 38, 40… hopefully maybe 50 episodes.
Chris: I want to shoot for 50, because we have 52 weeks, so maybe miss two weeks in there. But let’s shoot for at least 50 episodes.
Tim: So shoot for 50 episodes.
Chris: … in 2021.
Tim: Yeah, we need to do some live streaming.
Chris: Do some live… you know what would be really fun would be to do some live recordings, like I’ve done even at I am Salt Lake. With I am Salt Lake we did them at some of the local bars.
Tim: Okay, for sure.
Chris: Maybe once towards the end of the year, once things start to open up because they’re predicting… I know the vaccines coming to Utah, they say in July. Anyway, we don’t need to get into all that. But I think things are going to start turning around hopefully the end of the year, maybe we can get out… How fun would that be? Do a live recording at a local pharmacy/dispensary, right?
Tim: Oh, yeah.
Chris: That could be really fun.
Tim: That would be really fun.
Chris: Set up the mics right there in the lobby or something. People can watch us chat with one of their pharmacists or some…
Tim: Well, we have a lot of things coming up because in February is our one-year anniversary for the podcast. We obviously have 4/20, which is going to be big. And this year, hopefully even better because hopefully they’re starting to open up a little bit by then. Summer we’ll have some events, some live recording events. This has been really fun because I’m not super excited about 2021.
Chris: And we have a voicemail now. I know I mentioned that on the last episode towards the end of it, but really, call this number in. It’s 385-215-9557. Nobody will ever pick this up. It’s a Google voice number I set up just for this podcast. Nobody will ever pick it up, so call it up, leave a message on there. If you have a question for Tim or myself, if you have a question about getting your card, if you want to get some feedback on an episode, call up that number. You can even text it if you don’t want to have your voice heard or anything, you can just send a text to that number too. And maybe we’ll play it on the show, right? We’ll read the text or…
Tim: Yeah, if you have a message, we can read it, we can play it.
Chris: … play it. I was hoping we’d have some tonight, but nobody’s called in yet. You know, if you have any shout outs you want to make to a local dispensary or a local pharmacist that treated you well, say, “Yo, thanks for taking care of me.” We do have an iTunes review though. I want to read that really quick right now if that’s okay, Tim.
Tim: Yeah, absolutely.
Chris: Which, please go and leave some iTunes reviews. We’ve got a handful of them. It looks like everybody’s really stoked on the podcast. 21. We have 21 five-star ratings right now on iTunes, but the most recent one was just left here the beginning of December by Bluntness in Utah, so that’s fitting: bluntness in Utah.
Tim: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris: It just says, “Podcasts are on point. Thank you for touching on so many unspoken and gray areas of legalization in Utah.” So straight and to the point. I don’t know about you, Tim, I like to hear what these people have to say about the podcast.
Tim: Yeah, feedback is everything.
Chris: But I think I’ve read all these other ones that were left on here. There’s like four other ones that we’ve gotten.
Tim: That’s pretty cool. I’m glad that people are listening. They’re getting some benefit, learning a thing or two, and you know, just some more understanding about who’s out here in this culture in Utah.
Chris: Let’s talk about utahmarijuana.org though. Or Utah Therapeutic, Utah marijuana clinics, because you have four now, right? You have Ogden now?
Tim: Yes, we have Ogden, West Valley, which is really just West Salt Lake. It’s right across from the Beehive Farmacy there.
Chris: Great location by the way.
Tim: That’s a cool location, yeah. And then Millcreek. 3900 South 7th East. And we’re looking at going to Logan. We should have an announcement about that in the next couple of weeks, at least on a periodic basis in Logan. And we want to expand because there’s patients everywhere, but primarily, we’re trying to take care of the patients that we have now. There’s some laws changing over the next couple of weeks at the first of the year.
Tim: I didn’t want to talk about this too much today because we want to have Katie from the Department of Health on, and I hope to get her on next week. She can really explain the changes in the law and what people can expect. So really stay tuned to the next episode, the next couple of episodes because we’re just going to have the Department of Health come and tell you what you need to know about 2021. So get really prepared for that. And we’ll have more on our Instagram Utah in the Weeds, and utahmarijuana.org Instagram. Of course that’s always the best place to find us.
Chris: Yeah, Instagram I think is probably the best one right now.
Tim: Yeah.
Chris: Because I know that’s going to hopefully get a little more active on Instagram.
Tim: Yeah, we’ll start getting a little more active there. And then, I’ve just been really happy with the response from… you know, the interest in utahmarijuana.org and Discover Marijuana on YouTube, it seems like people are really interested in this, it’s not just us, Chris.
Chris: Oh, yay. Can we talk about the hoodies? Let’s talk about the hoodies. So these Utah in the Weeds hoodies, okay so-
Tim: 2020, we even got hoodies done.
Chris: Okay, so you surprised me with these hoodies, Tim. I didn’t even know you were doing it, which is great by the way. Honestly, fantastic. Then you surprised me with some hoodies, like was it last week or the week before?
Tim: Yeah, last week.
Chris: And I posted a picture online, right?
Tim: Yeah.
Chris: Obviously I posted it. I was so excited. Nobody was at home. I was hoping Krissie could take a picture. I did it in the mirror, so it’s backward, but whatever. People were like, “I want one.” “Where do I get them?”
Tim: Oh, yeah, okay. So you can buy…
Chris: People are just going to love them.
Tim: Yes. You can buy a Utah in the Weeds hoodie at any of my clinics, the Utah Therapeutic Health Center clinics. So go to utahmarijuana.org, look up one of our clinics. Obviously Millcreek is centrally located 3900 South 740 East. You can go in there during business hours. I think they’re 39 bucks, so we tried to keep the cost down. For a hoodie, they’re a nice hoodie. Utah in the Weeds. Yeah, I was wearing mine earlier.
Chris: Oh, they’re great. They’re so soft and ridiculous. I love them and I’m just like, “Oh, my gosh, I got to get so many people…”
Tim: I know. They’re so fun. We have a pretty limited supply. We did a limited run for Christmas. We gave them to all our QMPs.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: And watch for them around at the dispensaries. And if you work at a dispensary or a pharmacy and you want one, you can wear it outside of work.
Chris: Isn’t that ridiculous that I can’t go to Wholesome or Beehive and buy a hat or a tee-shirt?
Tim: Or a mug.
Chris: Because I’m stoked on them.
Tim: Yeah.
Chris: And I’m like, “I want to advertise for you guys.” Nope, can’t do it.
Tim: Nope.
Chris: So ridiculous.
Tim: That’s why we needed some hoodies, Chris.
Chris: Yeah. We should giveaways or something.
Tim: Yeah, totally.
Chris: People that come in to get their cards at utahmarijuana.org, if they come and get a card, they can get a hoodie.
Tim: Yeah, get a hoodie, get a buy-one-get-one hoodie.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: I don’t know, we’ll do something.
Chris: Mention you listened to this, you know?
Tim: I’ll tell you right now, if you mention that you heard about that hoodie on the podcast, I don’t know, Chris, maybe we’ll give 15 bucks off. We’ll give a coupon.
Chris: There you go.
Tim: First 10 people who come in say, “Hey, I heard about this on the podcast,” yes, $25 hoodie.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: That’s a deal.
Chris: Okay, so they can stop by any of the locations, go to utahmarijuana.org to probably get the addresses of the locations so we don’t have to rattle them all. Text us. Get a hoodie. We’ve still got cold days ahead of us. We’ll make some tee-shirts once spring rolls around probably.
Tim: We’ll get Krissie on the design. And kudos for the design.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: Krissie, if you’re listening, way to go.
Chris: Yeah, she did it. My wife did the logo for Utah in the Weeds. She just kind of threw it together, man. I’ve always been a fan of ’70s, so it kind of has a ’70s lettering.
Tim: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, it’s way cool.
Chris: I’m trying to think if there’s anything else that we need to discuss. Did we talk about these transdermal patches? I know that Deseret Wellness…
Tim: Yeah, Deseret Wellness got transdermals.
Chris: And I know you and I, kind of off air, but I figured to let listeners know, they got those down there. I would imagine the other dispensaries will get them.
Tim: Yeah, they’ll come to other dispensaries. Good way for long-acting, consistent dosing throughout the day transdermal.
Chris: What kind of people would you recommend that for?
Tim: I’m going to recommend them to people who are chronically on opioids and they just need something really, really long-acting so they can put the transdermal patch on and get a nice, consistent dose all day long. So I’m going to put them on the chronic pain type situation where you need that long dosing. And you can do inhale for breakthrough still if you need that much. You need to be careful with transdermal because you can get a little over the top.
Chris: I was just going to say it would be nice for people, like say even the businessman that can’t be puffing on his vape all the time at meetings or anything, but he needs to kind of…
Tim: Yup, and you don’t have to bite off half the gelatinous cube, you know?
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: And so again, that consistent dosing, that’s the next phase of medical cannabis in my opinion. Bijan talked a little bit about this, like metered-dose inhalers where you get an exact amount, you know how many milligrams you’re getting. That’s where it becomes much more like medicine, and I think providers will like that better when they can say, “Okay, yeah, take this. It’s one inhalation. It’s five milligrams.”
Chris: Because it’s hard right now, because even edibles, you’re not even guaranteed that so much of that cannabis or THC made it into that…
Tim: No, that one gelatinous cube.
Chris: … gelatinous cube, really.
Tim: Yeah, you might have 70% in that one, and 120% in the next one, and you’ve always got be a little careful.
Chris: It’s just the way it works out, man.
Tim: Yup.
Chris: So you think they’ll be able to get that and hone that down, huh?
Tim: Yeah.
Chris: You think they’ll be able to hone it down, so you know you’re getting 20 milligrams in that.
Tim: Exactly 20 milligrams. In fact, I suspect that within the next three to five years, you’re going to know… maybe even less time, you’re going to know I want 20 milligrams, 10 milligrams of THS, 10 milligrams of CBD, 10 milligrams of CBG, and that’s what I’m going to get. And I’m going to have that in a transdermal patch and boom.
Chris: You go to the pharmacy, you pick it up.
Tim: And it’s the exact same every time, every dose is going to be very, very consistent.
Chris: Hm.
Tim: It opens up the marketplace even more for a lot of people who don’t like the smell, don’t like the inconsistencies of the strains.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: We love the inconsistencies of the strains.
Chris: Sometimes. Sometimes it gets old though, but the inconsistency is fun just because it opens up new possibilities and new discoveries, and you’re like, “Okay, I want to try this one out.”
Tim: Right, but Grandma does not like inconsistency.
Chris: True.
Tim: She gets dizzy when she gets a sativa, she gets a headache or she gets paranoid. No inconsistency for her. And that’s a huge market for drugs and medicine. Anyway, we could go on and on.
Chris: No, you’re great, you’re great. I predict a lot of good things in 2021.
Tim: Yeah, it’s going to be a good year.
Chris: Anything else you want to talk about? I don’t know, should we wrap this up maybe?
Tim: I think we should.
Chris: Should we wrap up this episode?
Tim: Let’s wrap up episode 39.
Chris: You and I went back and forth a few times. No, it’s episode 38. No, it’s episode 39. But we figured it out.
Tim: 38B.
Chris: So yeah, the last episode of 2020. It’s been fun doing this. Merry Christmas, everybody. Happy New Year.
Tim: Yup, Merry Christmas, everybody.
Chris: Be safe.
Tim: Please be safe out there.
Chris: Don’t do stupid stuff. We want you to stick around.
Tim: If you need anything, just give us a holler.
Chris: Reach out. And if you want to come on the podcast, reach out to Tim or myself, or should they reach out to Utah Marijuana?
Tim: Honestly, utahmarijuana.org, if you chat with us online or call, that’s a great… any way you can contact us is probably fine at this point.
Chris: And then somebody would answer the phone there, email, and then they would get it to the right person I guess.
Tim: That’s right.
Chris: Awesome, Tim, awesome. Well, I’ve had a blast doing the show with you, man. I’m so grateful I reached out to you to say, “Hey, let’s do this podcast together.”
Tim: Yes, thank you, thank you.
Chris: How can people get a hold of you? You know the drill.
Tim: It’s the same old drill, utahmarijuana.org. Don’t even need to give a phone number anymore, because that’s I think easier than anything.
Chris: The website, yeah.
Tim: The website. Yeah, with chat, and the phone number’s listed there.
Chris: I was going to say the phone number’s right up in the, I think, right-hand corner.
Tim: Top right corner.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim: And we’re really excited for 2021, and keep this momentum up.
Chris: What about those YouTube videos? You want to… are they on the website too?
Tim: Yup. Discover Marijuana is the YouTube channel. Anything we livestream of the podcast will go there on its on feed.
Chris: Okay.
Tim: But Discover Marijuana, you can get to that from utahmarijuana.org, and that has really education videos, like right now we’re posting educational videos, short clips just with marijuana for beginners.
Chris: I love them. I love them. They’re well done.
Tim: I think they’re helping people. I hope they are. How about you, Chris?
Chris: Iamsaltlake.com. I’ve talked about it a couple times in this conversation. Yeah, go check it out. It’s my other podcast I do. I do that with my wife. The last episode was with the Cluck Truck food truck. The next episode you would think I know what it is. I know I have it all recorded. My mind is blank right now, so I’m not going to even say it, but we’re talking to business owners and artist/musicians, and we’ve got a fun year planned out.
Tim: Yeah, so toward that podcast, because there are a lot of… I’ve been really enjoying the local food trucks and the local restaurants, and then we can go out and support them, and they really need our help.
Chris: Well, and we give ideas on how to support them too. Especially with Christmas, one thing to keep in mind, gift cards, gift certificates go a long way, because you can give a gift… Well, this will be up after Christmas, or Christmas day I think this is going out.
Tim: This is the perfect time to go up for the sales, after-Christmas gift cards.
Chris: Get the sales, because with any place, they need that cash right now, and you might not even use it until summer, but if you like an eating establishment here in Utah, and you want it to stick around, go support it because I’ve been reading about New York City and just some of these cities, they’re just… some of these eateries are just shutting down, man.
Tim: Yeah, that’s too bad.
Chris: It’s a bummer. Anyway, we don’t need to be down and out here. We need to keep it up and up on positivity on this podcast. But utahmarijuana.org. Go listen to the podcast there. Go check out the transcripts, and as Tim says…
Tim: Stay safe out there.
Despite Medical Marijuana being legal in Utah for some time now, there is still much confusion surrounding Medical Marijuana Cards and letters of recommendation from doctors. In simple terms, you cannot just go to any doctor in the state and get a card. Doctors don’t even issue cards.
If you are confused about the whole doctor thing, be aware that now is the time to educate yourself. Letters of recommendation will no longer be accepted at Utah marijuana dispensaries from 2021. Beginning in 2021, you must have a Medical Marijuana Card issued by the state to purchase products at Utah dispensaries.
We would be happy to meet with you in our clinic and discuss your need for a card. If you are not local to Salt Lake City or Ogden, you may have to look elsewhere for a qualified medical provider.
Qualified medical providers under Utah’s Medical Marijuana law are providers who have met state requirements to recommend cannabis products. Before they can even apply, individuals have to be licensed medical professionals according to Utah regulations. A person with no medical training or licensing cannot become a qualified provider even if they could meet the other requirements.
That said, a licensed medical provider must take an educational course in order to be qualified to recommend Medical Marijuana. There are both live and online courses available. A typical course covers Utah’s Medical Marijuana law along with an introduction to the human endocannabinoid system.
Approved medical providers are expected to address any additional training or education they might feel is necessary to ensure they can recommend Medical Marijuana safely. Many of us have taken advantage of the extra educational resources offered by course providers.
Doctors are already allowed to prescribe controlled substances by virtue of their licenses. Therefore, they need do nothing more than complete the required Medical Marijuana course to become a qualified provider. Nurse practitioners and physician assistants are in a slightly different position. An NP or PA who meets the necessary requirements to write controlled substance prescriptions can also become qualified providers.
However, there is a caveat in the state of Utah. NPs and PAs must have permission from their supervising physicians to recommend Medical Marijuana. In almost every case, this permission is delegated through explicit language in the delegation of service agreement between the two. As long as supervising physicians are okay with it, and NPs and PAs are good to go.
This is beneficial for patients inasmuch as they do not necessarily need to have a family doctor or GP who also acts as a qualified provider. Patients can go to clinics that specialize in Medical Marijuana Cards and nothing else. This is obviously not the preferred course of action, but it may be a patient’s only choice if his or her GP is not a qualified provider under state law.
In closing this post, we want to make it clear that qualified medical providers do not issue Medical Marijuana Cards in the state of Utah. All we can do is certify whether or not a patient meets the legal conditions to use cannabis products medically. We perform a medical evaluation, ask questions, discuss things with the patient, and make recommendations from there.
To get a card, patients take the paperwork we provide and submit it to the state along with the required application and associated fee. If you still need to find a QMP, you can schedule a visit with us online or call 801.851.5554.
In this podcast, Tim and Chris speak with Josh Fitzgerald, head cannabis pharmacist at Deseret Wellness in Provo. This particular episode was actually recorded at Deseret Wellness. As one of the first dispensaries to open in Utah, Deseret Wellness has already made a name for itself.
The podcast opens with a brief explanation of how Fitzgerald got started as a cannabis pharmacist. [01:56] He began his career working as a department store pharmacy tech before getting his degree from Midwestern University. He returned to that pharmacy after graduation in 2001, becoming the staff pharmacist.
Josh explains how he was really turned off by the opioid crisis of the early 2000s. [04:05] He wished there were some other way to alleviate pain without pushing pills. But what finally made him decide to investigate Medical Cannabis was his interactions with a young epilepsy patient. Fitzgerald realized he might be able to reduce her seizures with Medical Cannabis.
To make a long story short, he became a cannabis pharmacist and applied for the position at Deseret Wellness. Now he is excited to tell people all about Medical Marijuana, state-issued cards, dispensaries, and so forth.
Throughout the podcast, the guys talk about a range of things. They spent quite a bit of time talking about pricing and supply [14:52], with the general consensus being that both will level out in the near future. As more dispensaries open and growers reach capacity, stock should be more consistent. Prices should stabilize as well.
The guys also talked about how cannabis pharmacists do more than just dispense cannabis. [34:46] They work with patients to help them get the most out of their prescriptions. Fitzgerald mentioned that anyone with a Medical Cannabis Card can stop by Deseret Wellness to get advice, answers to their questions, and cannabis products. Orders can be placed on their website, too.
Chris: Well let’s get going here, Tim. I mean, we sound great, the microphones are hot, we’re ready to go. We’re live at Deseret Wellness in Provo, Utah. This is our second time recording here-
Tim: Yeah, that’s right. Utah in the Weeds, episode 38?
Chris: 38, Utahmarijuana.org is where you can go get all the transcripts, you can listen to the podcast right there.
Tim: Yes and we are going to start doing a full transcript of the podcast, which I think will be… I mean, it’ll be a little different, but you’ll be able to find them there and I think you’ll be able to find them there within about three or four days of when they release.
Chris: Okay.
Tim: Oh iTunes, which is kind of cool. If you want to read the podcast for some reason, you don’t want weed in your ear or on the speaker.
Chris: There you go, Utahmarijuana.org. And we are here today with Josh Fitzgerald, he is the head pharmacist here at Deseret Wellness. How long have you been at Deseret Wellness?
Josh: Since we opened up, I came on with them mid July before we opened up.
Tim: And when did you open, again?
Josh: What was it? Hard to think back.
Tim: But it was in August-
Josh: August 31st, last day of August.
Tim: And it was kind of a crazy day, I remember the stories.
Josh: Yeah. Have you guys heard the stories about how we opened? The Friday before we opened, the state changes all our EVS protocols and we’re scrambling, I got an email from the state and like, “Oh this is the new change.” And this is Friday night and I’m like, “Oh my gosh.”
Tim: We got some phone calls because we got a lot of patients who wanted to come down, wanted to be a part of the opening. The way I heard it was they were enforcing rules that already had existed but were not necessarily being followed to the letter and implemented perfectly around town. But that’s awesome, pharmacist in charge is your actual-
Josh: That’s my title, yeah.
Chris: Were you a pharmacist at a regular pharmacy before you came here?
Josh: Yeah, So, a little bit of my background, I started working in a pharmacy in ’96, fresh off an LDS mission, and my best friend’s older brother was in pharmacy school at the time and he’s like, “You need to do this, man, it’s cool.” So I’m like, “Okay, whatever.” So I went down to the Target in Fort Union, Cottonwood Heights now, and they just barely opened up, like a few weeks, and I walk in there and I said, “Hey, you guys looking for a pharmacy technician?” And the manager was like, “Sure.” And so they hired me right on the spot and I started working like two days later.
I worked with Target from ’96 to ’98, I was with them as a technician, went to pharmacy school and stayed on with them while I was in pharmacy school down in Phoenix. Graduated in 2001 from Midwestern, came right back to that same Target in 2001 and was staff pharmacist.
Tim: Oh, wow. As a pharmacist.
Josh: Yeah, they wanted me back there quickly so I was like, “Sure, I’ll go back.” The manager just left then and so there was some shuffling with the management there. So I started there as a pharmacist and then, what was it, 2005… I lived in South Jordan, Riverton, South Jordan area, and the Target out there in the district opened up in 2005, well late 2005, it opened 2006, but as soon as that happened I jumped on it, I was like, “Hey, I want to be a part of that.” So I was there from 2006 to this last July.
Chris: And so now you’re dealing with cannabis, I mean here you’re at a regular pharmacy dealing with regular pain pills and then you’re coming here dealing with a little more natural… I mean, was that a hard shift for you?
Josh: Oh definitely, honestly it was a huge learning curve because, one, I’m not a card holder, just to put that out there for everybody, don’t use the stuff.
Chris: Have you ever used cannabis?
Josh: No, never.
Chris: This is… I mean, we got to get into that.
Josh: Yeah, we’ll get into that. Yeah. I always bring this up because it’s fun to talk about, I’m not a user, I shouldn’t say user, a partaker of it, a patient.
Chris: I say the same thing.
Tim: You know what though, there is no wrong way to talk about it. In my mind. Weed, marijuana, cannabis, you call it whatever you want here. Call use, smoke, vape, consume, it doesn’t-
Chris: A lot of it is just lingo that we use.
Josh: Here in a medical setting we kind of keep it a little bit more on the professional side-
Chris: You have to, yes.
Josh: But in your podcast, yeah.
Tim: Okay, but you went through the whole opioid epidemic in the late ’90s through the early 2000s.
Josh: 2000s, yep. And that’s-
Tim: Like, you were in the heart of it.
Josh: I hated it, I hated every minute of it, yeah. To see these pill mills popping up in downtown Salt Lake and out in West Jordan. We’d see the patients come in and we’d see the doctors that came writing the same thing over and over again. I hated it and there was nothing I could do about it. I mean, it was a legit prescription, but it’s coming from a pill mill. And luckily over the years, there’s been some changes to that kind of stuff and there’s been some law changes that have been implemented to curb some of that stuff. It still exists though, unfortunately. And I hated being a part of it, that was part of the decision that made me want to leave that industry and come over there.
Tim: So what made you want to even investigate cannabis, marijuana, though? You know what I mean? What made you even be open to this?
Josh: Working at the Target that I was at for so many years, there was a family that has a home in Grand Junction and they have a daughter that’s had epilepsy her entire life and they got this summer home down there, and they would go down there and they started using some CBC and THC combinations to help with the epilepsy. And it got me thinking a lot over the years, I would see them take this drive down there multiple times a month, and to see the change in this little kid that was having seizures multiple times a day, knocking it down to maybe a few a week, that got me thinking about what this industry entails and how we’ve kind of lost it.
After that it’s kind of just me researching it and when I saw the position open up here at Deseret Wellness I was like, “Should I apply? I’m interested, but should I apply?” And leaving that industry that I’d been in for, gosh almost 25 years, it was really hard. But the more I looked into it and the more I saw how they do things here at Deseret Wellness, I was really opened to the idea. but to see… And that little girl that I dealt with before, she wasn’t the only one, there were other people too. And I saw people get into that downward spiral of addiction, I’ve had family members that have been in that spiral and to not have this option that they could have turned to was really kind of a motivating thought for me to make this change.
Tim: Yeah. That’s the gap between knowledge and not knowledge is that light bulb moment where you realize, “Wait, I don’t know a lot about this.”
Josh: Yeah.
Tim: Right?
Josh: But you have to explore it.
Tim: But you see something-
Chris: Are you still in touch with that family?
Josh: Not as much as I was, I haven’t seen them since I left, really.
Tim: So now that you’re here, did you look at other pharmacies to work for when you were looking into this or just this one?
Josh: Just this one in the beginning because that was all that was opening up at the time, I had feelers out to see what was going on, at that point it was just Dragonfly so there was other people. And Wholesome was kind of in the beginning and Mindy had already been established as a pharmacist up there so that wasn’t a possibility for me. But, yeah, I looked around a little bit.
Tim: You say it like it’s just normal. Like Dragonfly and then Mindy up at Wholesome.
Josh: Oh yeah.
Tim: I mean, this is really a small community-
Josh: It is a tight group of people, it is.
Tim: There’s only how many pharmacies open now, I think there’s six or seven.
Josh: I think there’s seven, yeah.
Tim: Of the 14 that will open-
Josh: Hopefully open, yeah.
Tim: And really, everybody… Do the pharmacists essentially all know each other?
Josh: We do, we have a little group, the Utah… I forget the exact name of it, but we’re an association of cannabis pharmacists. We talk monthly, usually, and go over things and voice our opinion when we need to voice it to the state as a group. Yeah, we’re very tight knit in a lot of ways, we don’t talk all the time but if I have a problem I’m going to reach out to Kevin up at Dragonfly and see what’s going on there. When Brian was over at Curaleaf I could reach out to him too. So, yeah, we know each other. It’s fun.
Chris: Do you live in this area?
Josh: No, I live in Riverton, so I commute down here every day.
Chris: Because I was just wondering how it was down here in Provo, like if you lived here and then your neighbors found out you were dealing with cannabis, I was just curious what it’s like.
Josh: It’s interesting. When I got this job, in the beginning, I didn’t come out and say I got this new job, that I’m working in the cannabis industry because I didn’t really know how to take it in the beginning. But now I’m totally open about it and love to talk about it. But it’s interesting to see the people come out of the woodwork that you didn’t know that were maybe using it or going to Colorado or Nevada to get it, they’ll be — “Hey, Josh, I’ve been getting it from Colorado for the last five years.”
Tim: Right like, “I need to come see you down here.”
Josh: Yeah, so that opens up some doors and I can talk to them about it. Like I told you, I’m LDS, I’m kind of like the token LDS guy around here, and I see a lot of LDS patients in here, it isn’t a stigma as much as we think it is in a lot of ways, in this culture and community. It’s cool to see people come out and say, “Hey, yeah, I use this stuff and it’s helped me.”
Tim: Do you see a lot of patients here that are from this area? Or do you see a lot of patients that are traveling because they don’t want to come to their local cannabis pharmacy?
Josh: No, people pretty much go where the closest pharmacy is, it’s a location based thing. But we have people come from, since we’re the furthest one south, we have people come from Saint George, we have people come from the Blanding area, we have people come from Moab-
Chris: No kidding.
Josh: You know, we’re straight out of the mouth of the canyon here, out of Spanish Fork Canyon, so we get a lot of the Southern Utah people. But to say, like the majority of our patients are based here in Provo and Orem and Spanish Fork.
Chris: Speaking of that actually, I have a question on that topic, since you have people driving here so far. It’s been a while since I’ve been to your website but do you guys keep it up to date pretty much? With your product.
Josh: Oh, yeah. I’m glad you asked that because we just changed to an online format that gives a little bit more of our menu options and you can actually make online orders now. That’s been huge over the last week, it’s pretty new to us.
Chris: And you do the curbside pickup, I saw out there. You take the Hypur app here yet?
Josh: We do, yep, Hypur and everything, yeah.
Chris: Okay.
Tim: Are people using cash primarily or are they switching over to Hypur?
Josh: We would like them to switch over to Hypur but it’s primarily cash and I think it’s going to be that way for a little while.
Tim: Is it because people are still afraid of the system knowing that they’re-
Chris: Being tracked.
Josh: Yeah, people talk about that, being tracked, all the time.
Tim: People do not want to be tracked with cannabis.
Josh: Yeah. I try to alleviate those concerns, you know, Hypur doesn’t really you in any way. Yes, you’re a user on that platform but…
Chris: You’re being tracked in EVS, every purchase you make right there.
Josh: That’s what I was going to say, yeah. And to kind of go back to what we were talking… Off the podcast with the whole controlled substance database, you guys talked about last week-
Tim: Well, with Desiree.
Josh: With Desiree, yeah.
Tim: And they put it in this little article I read on the news and they kind of hid it at the bottom of the article, right? Like, “Oh, by the way, we’re going to put you all on another state run database.”
Josh: Yeah. There’s good and bad to the controlled substance database but everybody is being tracked, so if anybody has any concerns, you are being tracked, but it’s in a good way. The state’s here to help us out.
Chris: Our phones in our pockets are tracking you.
Tim: The phone knows more about you than you do.
Josh: Yeah, exactly.
Chris: So, are you thinking about ever using cannabis? Have you ever thought about it? Like, even the lotion or anything?
Josh: So, I went to my primary care physician because I like to run a lot and I’ve had some issues with my heel over the last couple months and I made an appointment with him and I’m like, “Hey, I want to maybe try cannabis.” I said, “This is my new job.” And we’ve known each other for years now, and he was hesitant about giving me that letter so…
Tim: Is he a QMP?
Josh: No, he’s not, so he was going to give me a letter and I was going to try and go to a QMP. But yeah, I definitely want to at least try some of the stuff, I don’t have a true qualifying condition in the extent of other people do. But yeah, I have chronic pain in my heel, which I think is a qualifying condition, right?
Chris: I was going to say, isn’t pain a qualifying condition?
Tim: As somebody who can tell you that it is a qualifying condition, yes that’s a qualifying condition.
Josh: Yeah. So, I’m-
Tim: Especially for topicals-
Josh: That’s what I really wanted to get, I want to try some edibles and I want to try some topical to help with this pain that I can sleep at night. Hopefully, I can get an appointment with somebody here in a little bit. I want to give it a try, for sure.
Tim: It’s interesting, do you feel like you’ve come to that because you’re involved in it? I mean, when we were all in school they said, “Don’t hang out with those kids because the more you hang out with those kids the more likely you are to get into trouble and use…”
Chris: And look what happened, you started hanging out with them.
Tim: So is this the truth or is this just the knowledge?
Josh: It’s the knowledge, it’s the truth in the sense that it is the knowledge, yes. I’ll tell you this story real quick, I’ve got a good friend that, she’s dealing with a lot of shoulder pain right now, she found out she had a herniated disk in her neck that was causing the shoulder pain. And she came in here because she didn’t want to take opioids, and she wouldn’t have come in here unless she would have known that I was here. So in the sense that the association with me and her gave her that entry to get in here. Same goes with my situation, the knowledge that I have is that entry to get into here and pursue this kind of thought and treatment method.
Tim: So this is exactly the point that I think needs to be made, is that it’s not the association with the wrong crowd.
Josh: No.
Tim: But it is the association with the cannabis crowd.
Josh: Yep.
Tim: It’s the association with the correct cannabis crowd that makes the difference.
Josh: Yep. And it’s just the sharing of knowledge and sharing of experiences too, with it, and being comfortable with it. There’s definitely the stigma that’s out there and we have to change that as a community and it takes us talking about it and takes us sharing it and yes, it’s association but it’s a good association, like you said.
Chris: Speaking of the stigma, have you noticed since March, the first pharmacy opened up in Salt Lake, Dragonfly, to now, have you seen a little bit of that stigma kind of disappear a little bit?
Josh: For sure, yeah.
Chris: Over the last year even, here in Utah.
Josh: Oh, yeah. You know, the more people see it the more people are comfortable with it and the more we can explain to them that it’s a safe, effective method of treatment, it’s going to keep growing. And we can see that in the card numbers that are coming through, I mean, we started off what… What was it back in August when we opened? There was maybe like, 10 000, 19 000? I don’t remember, what’s it up to now?
Tim: It’s well over 20 000 legal users now, and I think the card numbers-
Josh: The card numbers are in the 30 000, there was one yesterday that was in the 32 000, so.
Tim: Yeah. So there are so many legal cannabis users. Remember when we get to 100 000, that’s three percent of the state’s population, adult population.
Josh: I can’t wait.
Chris: Is that kind of when…
Josh: We’re gonna start voting for legal then, right?
Tim: Yeah, that’s what the lobbyists and that’s what the industry looks at, they look at that three percent number. It’s kind of the magic number before you start to transition to that other discussion.
Josh: Yeah.
Tim: Have you seen people… This is a good question for Josh, because on my end, I’m not for adult use yet. But have you seen patients who have had some negative effect?
Josh: Negative effect, no, there’s really no negative effect that I’ve seen so far. It doesn’t work for some people, I can say that, and some people are discouraged when that happens but it’s not a negative effect. The majority of our patients see a positive effect from it, they see a benefit from it.
Tim: So not a lot of negative effects?
Josh: No.
Tim: That’s good.
Chris: Except draining your bank account, right.
Josh: Exactly, yeah.
Tim: Right, especially in prices here. So, talk a little bit about prices, is there anything on the horizon that will bring prices down?
Josh: Competition, the more pharmacies we can get open, I think the more competition we’re going to have. And then the more growers we can get producing quality product and more of it, well it’s going to drive the demand for it… Well, the supply will go up and that way we can have that… I don’t know, it’ll even the market out, is what I want to say.
Chris: But if there’s only 14 pharmacies then how can you really have competition?
Tim: Right. There was somebody who, the other day, told me they drove through a city in Colorado, 120 pharmacies-
Chris: The green mile, man, in Colorado. 22 dispensaries in a mile-
Josh: At some point, the state’s going to have to evaluate the amount of pharmacies we have and I think that’s going to be the deciding factor on what’s going to level the market out.
Chris: Have we ever talked about why they only allowed 14 pharmacies in Utah? Do we know why?
Tim: Originally it was the central fill, remember we were-
Chris: Well I remember that.
Tim: You were going to go to the central fill and then-
Chris: And that was the blister packs.
Tim: That was going to be the blister packs and then the central fill pharmacy would distribute it out to the health departments and then they would distribute it out to the patients. But there was some problem with the health department employees doing something federally illegal, dispersing a federally illegal product and not forcing them. So, again, compromised with a small number of retail pharmacies.
Chris: I’m just wondering where they got 14 and not 20.
Josh: I’ve never heard that.
Tim: Deseret Wellness has a pharmacy in Park City that going to open, when do you think that pharmacy will open?
Josh: We’re shooting for early February, late January, sometime in that timeframe.
Tim: Early February, late January, and is home delivery going to be a part of the Deseret Wellness
Josh: It’s going to be our core, I think, up in Park City for sure. Just the way that the demographic is up there with the seasonal people there too, I think it’s going to be very core to how we dispense up there. Down here in Provo we’re working on getting that done, as soon as we get the state authorization we’re ready to go with home delivery here and hopefully that comes sooner than later because we’ve got a lot of patients that struggle to get here. That’s why we have the curbside for the moment and we’ll keep doing that, but curbside has helped out a lot of people that have a hard time getting into the building. So those types of one-off delivery methods or one-off purchasing methods are key to this industry, I think.
Chris: Do you have a drive-through here?
Josh: We don’t, no. We’re not set up for that. I’d love to have one but no.
Chris: Yeah, I was going to say, I didn’t think I saw one.
Tim: No, but there’s how many curbside spots out front?
Josh: There’s three, we started with one and just this last week we had to add a third and we’re probably going to have to add a fourth here pretty soon.
Tim: Oh really? That’s cool though.
Josh: It’s really nice, yeah.
Tim: So talk to us about flower too, because you’re the guy who knows how much flower is in this location, and it still comes up as an issue, I just talked to a patient this morning who was like, “Oh, there’s no indica here, where can I find some indica?”
Josh: Yep, all we’ve got right now is Sundae Driver, yeah. Flower is tough here in Utah, we’re having shortages and a lot of it is held up with the state and the second round of processing that just went through. A lot of it is just our growers growing quality flower that they can put on the market too. So there’s some things that could change and be a little bit better here in the state, for sure, to get us to that point.
Tim: If you could pick a couple of those things which would it be? Because I hear you say a couple of things, one, there’s not enough growers that are producing an adequate amount of flower. Is there’s only three? There’s Tryke, Zion and there was Dragonfly.
Josh: Wholesome’s got some going on now. I know that Beehive’s affiliated with some growers too. So yeah, there’s flower out there and I’ve talked to some of the people and you can grow flower and that’s great. If it’s not quality flower then it just gets shipped to processing for edibles and other things. So we need to have quality flower that’s grown that’s quality to smoke and to use as medicine. If it’s not that then it’s not worth bringing to market and I think that’s where some of it’s getting lost right now, yes there’s flower being grown but a lot of it’s just getting pushed to processing.
Chris: Even a lot of the stuff that you can vape is kind of garbage, though, that’s coming out of the State of Utah. I’m actually surprised that it’s coming out.
Josh: Yeah, talking to a lot of our patients, there’s some things that could change.
Chris: I mean, I don’t want to sit and talk bad, I just want to see change. I want to see us get better quality because we deserve it.
Josh: And you know, talking to Jeremy, our market president here, he’s got a good relationship with Tryke and with Zion, pretty much everybody here in Utah. And they’re making strives to get to that point, they want to produce as much as they can, they want to produce quality product and they’re getting to that point. We’ll be there soon, I would imagine by mid next year we’ll have plenty of flower to go around.
Chris: I have a question on that, popped in my head here and you might not be the person to ask, we should have asked Shawn this when we were recording with him. But are they limited to how much they can grow in a space or can they grow as much as they was as long as they have a license.
Tim: No, they can grow as much as they want in the space but they’re limited to how many square feet they can grow in.
Josh: And to that point, Zion opened up a ton of extra grow space. Elk Ridge over here, just south of us, and they’ve got a grow going up in northern Utah too. They’re making those strides to get to that point so we’re grateful that they’re investing, that’s a lot of money that these growers are investing into our market.
Tim: Yeah, it’s a big investment. And the greenhouses, just additionally to this point, is you want to grow cannabis quickly then you need an existing greenhouse to take over. So you got to take over somebody’s poinsettia operation and they’ve got to know that they’re going to get paid and they’ve got to make some modifications for security because you can’t just grow a bunch of weed in the middle of Ogden and expect it not to get stolen. I mean, even the hemp gets stolen, we talked to Mike Rodriguez.
Josh: I’ve heard some stories about some of this other Utah stuff that’s happened on there. They’re making progress, like I said before, mid next year I think we’re going to see a levelization of the flower market and start to see some normalization of what we can have in stock and making sure we have the same things in stock.
That’s what we’re kind of worried about here and what we try to strive for is having the same things in stock every month. So when someone can come in and they’ve been using Gorilla Glue from Tryke and it’s working well for them, heck they come in the next month and we don’t have it for them and I feel horrible. They want this medicine and in a traditional marketplace, a traditional pharmacy, that’s unheard of. So to me, that hurts me as a pharmacist, it just makes me feel horrible. These people want this medicine, I can’t give them their Khalifa Kush vape cart that they’ve been using for the last month because we’re out of it.
Tryke’s trying as hard they can to get it to market, we’ll have some soon but, you know, it’s such a young market here in Utah that we can’t expect too much of what they’re doing at the same time, so we got to have some patience on our end too.
Chris: Since this will be going up Friday, can you give any tips on when any stuff’s coming in? Or is that not something you’re allowed to talk about?
Josh: I’m not allowed to talk about it, but I will say this, keep an eye on our website.
Chris: Okay.
Tim: And you keep that well up to date.
Josh: Any pharmacy here in Utah, look at their website before you come in. That way you’re not going to be surprised when you get here. Everybody keeps their websites completely up to date and that’s just the best way to get the information before you come.
Tim: You mentioned Gorilla Glue and these names, as a pharmacist do you feel like these are more fun names for drugs?
Josh: I tell this story all the time, as a pharmacist, one of our first days here, I’m selling a cart to this little old lady that she’s been vaping for a few years from Colorado and I’m selling her PPD, and she’s like, “PPD, I’ve never heard of PPD.” I’m like, “Oh yeah, yeah.” I didn’t want to continue with it any further and she kept bugging me, “Well, what is PPD?” And I’m like, “Okay, it’s Purple Panty Dropper.” And like everybody in the pharmacy just busts up laughing. Yes, the names are pretty funny and crazy, yes we could probably do better at naming them, especially in the medicinal market I think it’s a little bit weird. We’ve had conversations with different pharmacists and it’s just the market.
Tim: It’s where the market came from, I guess.
Josh: Exactly, yeah. Since the marijuana tax act of 1937, we lost that ability to have cannabis, marijuana in our culture and luckily we had these hippies in California that were growing it for us and keeping it alive. If we didn’t have them we wouldn’t have what we have today and unfortunately, they named it, not unfortunately, I shouldn’t say that, but to some extent they named it some crazy things and that was just because of their culture and we have to accept that that was part of the culture. Can we change the culture today? I think so, I think we can make it a little bit more medicinally friendly.
Chris: But you need to remember your roots and I think that’s the problem is too many people in the industry now are trying to forget it. Trying to make it too glamour… You know, “Oh let’s make it look all fancy.” While there’s still people in prison for paving the way at this.
Josh: We owe them a debt of gratitude for sure, we wouldn’t have what we have now if it weren’t for them. The growers that were coming out of California and the Pacific North West and Florida and even South America. We have these plants, we have these hybrids that they cultivated for us for years and we should be grateful for them, yes. But I-
Chris: I know what you mean.
Josh: Yeah, and that’s going to be a back and forth for years.
Tim: Those are the people that are taking themselves so seriously, you know, “You got to rename everything and you got to…” Yes, could we do a little bit better and does the little old lady probably prefer a name that’s not Purple Panty Dropper? Maybe, but maybe she doesn’t take herself serious enough-
Josh: She’s probably telling all of her friends, “Hey guys…” At the same time, like I said before, she laughed and it was a fun time in the pharmacy. So there’s two sides to it, for sure.
Chris: Should we hit up some of these questions? Because there’s quite a few on this paper here, Tim.
Tim: I know, there is, we got a few that we asked already about, the Park City, you know.
Josh: We’re so excited about Park City, it’s going to be so neat to have that up there.
Chris: The next question on here, these were questions submitted by customers or patients here.
Josh: From Instagram, yeah.
Chris: From Instagram that — follow Deseret Wellness on Instagram because it’s great to be connected. I think that’s a good way too to find out about product.
Josh: Yeah, and if there’s any announcement that we want to make to our public we send out an email but we also put it on Instagram, that’s like our go-to-
Tim: It’s the only way they’ve allowed you to, not promote, but just to communicate to the public.
Josh: Yep, and we take full advantage of it.
Tim: Yeah, I think so far everybody does.
Josh: Yeah.
Tim: So people come in here and ask… Number two, Chris.
Chris: Number two is, why do other dispensaries get products before Deseret Wellness? An example: the Mother Liquor rosin. That’s a good question.
Josh: Yeah, it is a great question. We’re not integrated with any grower or any producer so we stand along as Deseret Wellness. There’s other pharmacies out there that have a grow division and they’re affiliated with a specific grower, and us being not that way, we lose out on something like Mother Liquor because it’s going to wherever. Wholesome, who’s getting it? I can’t remember.
Chris: Actually I think Dragonfly has some now too.
Josh: Is Dragonfly?
Tim: Yeah, but they’re vertically integrated, they have a grow, they have… And that’s what you’re talking about, right? If I have a grow I’m going to put my rosin that I made in my pharmacy.
Josh: Why would any smart business person give it to somebody else if they can sell it themselves in their pharmacy?
Tim: So an advantage to them to do that, but a disadvantage too.
Josh: Disadvantage in the sense that we can’t get it, but that also, we’re not beholden to any specific product.
Tim: This is the disadvantage to them and the advantage to you, because you get to choose the best product.
Josh: Yeah. We can choose what we have and we get to choose, like you said, the best products we have. We can cultivate specific relationships with a lot of our growers and making sure that we can secure other things a lot easier than some of the other vertically integrated pharmacies. It gives us a lot of freedom here at Deseret Wellness, we don’t answer to any grow side, so we sell what we think is quality, and what we have here at Deseret Wellness we think is quality. So we’re going to have the products in stock that we know are going to help people, the medicine that we feel is the best medicine for our patients here at Deseret Wellness.
Tim: As a pharmacist, do you think that’s an important distinction between you and the other pharmacists? Not that I’m asking you to talk negative about other pharmacists in the industry, but do you think that those vertically integrated businesses, the Wholesomes, the Dragonflys, do you think they’re going to have to fight against the corporation trying to push their own product?
Josh: I would say yes, they’re going to have to… They own that product, so they’ve got to sell it, right? So yeah, they’re going to sell it and hopefully make the most money they can out of it because we need to succeed as an industry that way. But at the same time, even in last week’s podcast, you guys talked about having the pharmacy affiliated with a grower, it sometimes pushes patients to a specific product. That pharmacy may feel that they need to push that product to their patient, and not to say that it’s a bad product and the product will help that patient. But here at Deseret Wellness, I think we have the opportunity to have variety of products in stock that people can choose from and specifically pick the product that we think is best for them, and that gives us a lot of freedom, like I said before, and a lot of benefit for our patients here.
Tim: I’m so glad that you said that all.
Josh: Yeah.
Chris: Do you want to ask number three here, Tim?
Tim: Yeah, I do. Does Deseret Wellness have their own cultivation or plans to do so? So, you’ve talked a little bit about that you don’t have your own cultivation but is there any plans to develop that?
Josh: There’s no plans but who’s to say, maybe later on if the market shifts that way, we’re open to it. We’re not going to shut down something that might benefit but it’s not on the table right now for sure. Definitely not, yeah.
Chris: Shoot, I’m even open to that…
Tim: I mean, I think that the more we’re involved in this, Chris, the more you and I have talked about off the mic, we’re learning so much about cannabis and about growing and about all this stuff, it would be so fun to put a couple of plants in your backyard, in the greenhouse in the backyard.
Chris: One day, one day.
Josh: Maybe one day we’ll get there, yeah.
Chris: It’s fun to talk to people in California that just kind of have some growing in their garden.
Josh: We have a lot of patients that have moved here from California and they talk about the old days when they were living there and they could have a few plants just to hang out in their backyard.
Chris: Could you imagine that?
Josh: There’s a guy that was in here last week and he was saying that he’s been growing the same plant here in Utah in his basement and he’s been growing it for seven years. He’s an oil worker and he left to go out of state to work on it, left it to his brother and his brother killed it. And he said the stalk was like four inches in diameter, it was an old, old plant.
Tim: An old mother.
Josh: Yeah, and it died, he was pretty sad and I was pretty sad for him.
Chris: Yeah. Wow. The next question on here is, if or when you guys are doing delivery, and I know you’ve talked about delivery a little bit-
Josh: Yeah, as soon as the state can authorize that and get it ready to go, we’re going to jump right on it.
Chris: And kind of an estimate, or a goal? Are we looking at a month or six months? Or you have no idea?
Josh: You know, we’re hoping sometime early next year, is what I’ll say. Yeah, early next year.
Chris: Let’s see here, I’m just going to keep going with these, Tim. He’s changing out the video there, we’re doing some video so we’ll see if we can do anything with this video, so pay attention to when we announce that, listeners.
Will the flower supply become more consistent? It seems like flower goes so quickly at all pharmacies. And when will more products be available? I know we kind of talked about that.
Josh: We talked about that, yeah. I think mid next year the market’s hopefully going to level out. I don’t have a lot of specifics and knowledge on that but talking to people in the industry, we’re hoping so.
Chris: It’s kind of a given, if you watch a lot of industries that open, it takes a little second to iron the kinks out.
Josh: Yeah.
Chris: I know I’ve said this on other podcasts, people got to remember there’s been a lot of wild stuff going on this year on top of rolling this out, so that’s kind of held things back too.
Josh: It’s been a crazy year-
Chris: If this year was as normal as every other year we probably could be way ahead.
Josh: Exactly.
Tim: Would you have had Park City open, do you think, in a normal year?
Josh: Yeah, we would hope we would have had it open by now, for sure.
Tim: I think you would have opened here in Provo earlier too, right? A few months earlier.
Josh: Yeah, probably about a month earlier if we could have. But yeah, COVID held us back on the build out, quite a bit. COVID held us back on hiring people and getting things up and running. So, we had some issues but we were able to overcome it in the end.
Chris: That’s what I think we all need to pay attention to, it’s like, “Hey, at least we have them.” It might not be perfect but we could not have anything.
Tim: I mean, there might not be the products you want but it’s already leaps and bounds better than it was in March and April and May. The availability of product is by far better now.
Josh: Much, much better, yeah.
Tim: And there’s a lot of product in the pipeline. We were just in Payson and, let me tell you, there’s a lot of product down there.
Josh: Where were you guys at?
Tim: We went to the Zion grow. We want to go out and see the Tryke facility too because we want to see, because the listeners, they want to know. What you can’t see, you don’t believe nowadays.
Josh: Exactly, yeah. It is coming. I tell this to people all the time, we’re kind of in the wild wild west of medical marijuana here in Utah and everything’s changed so fast and so quickly and we just need to be a little bit patient with it. We’re only into it six, seven months, really. We’ve developed a whole market in this amount of time, this is insane, this is great. Two years from now I think we’re going to be in a lot better spots.
Chris: Exactly.
Josh: Patience is key right now.
Tim: Okay, this last question is-
Chris: It’s a good one.
Tim: It is a good one, and one we’ve never asked anybody before.
Chris: I don’t think so.
Tim: Okay. Josh, is there a way to set up so my spouse could pick up my order? I’m wondering if there are many options for people who have a hard time traveling or can’t drive themselves?
Josh: Yes, there is an option. You can become a caregiver with the state, so if a patient is unable to come to a pharmacy, whether that’s because of age or any type of physical ailment that they can’t get here, you can have a family member or close friend get a caregiver card with the state that’s attached to your card that says that that person can pick up for you and purchase for you. That is key to a lot of people here and we’ve been trying to talk with people about that. There’s definitely that option for people to go get that.
Tim: How hard is it to get a caregiver card?
Josh: It’s a little bit tricky. That person has to be authorized, there’s a fee involved with it that’s like $75.
Tim: Yeah, it’s a background check.
Josh: Yeah.
Tim: It’s really associated with the background check with the state.
Josh: That’s where it’s going to? Yeah. We’ve had a handful of people here at Deseret Wellness that have become caregivers and it’s helped out their patient tremendously, so we’re excited. And we’ll help people with that process and answer questions if they have any questions for it.
Tim: And essentially you just need to justify, it sounds to me like what your saying is you just need to really justify that you need the caregiver.
Josh: Yep.
Tim: And you can do that by age, so anybody under 21, they’re going to need, or at least under 18, has to have a caregiver card. And then anybody in a facility, anybody who’s living in an assisted living facility could qualify for a card.
Josh: Hospice qualifies. Any type of physical disability.
Tim: If you can’t drive, right? Then get a caregiver who can come get your product.
Josh: To that same point, we’ll have delivery options available next year that we can deliver to your house if you’re not able to make it in.
Chris: I was going to say, that’s probably the best option too right there, the easiest once delivery starts getting… I mean the curbside too, they wouldn’t have to get out of the car, if somebody could drive them here, at least.
Josh: A lot of our cancer patients that have a hard time getting to the store, they’ll have someone drive them here, we go out there and help them at curbside and get their order taken care of. So, yeah, options for them.
Tim: Can you do a consultation curbside? I’m sure you’ve done it.
Josh: We haven’t done a technical one but we do offer a telehealth here, so we always have that available to people that can’t make it in. If you want somebody to come into your consult with you, say you’re just not feeling comfortable going in by yourself, we make those changes. We usually bring them into this room that we’re in here today and kind of have a group consult, with the whole family sometimes, it’s pretty cool. But yeah, we make accommodations for anybody that can’t do it the traditional way.
Chris: It kind of becomes a family situation because if there’s one person in the home using cannabis, kind of everybody is part of that, really.
Tim: Yeah, they’re going to know about it.
Josh: It really is.
Chris: Whether it’s smell, or something, you know.
Tim: Yeah and the buy-in on the cultural side, especially growing up here LDS, this religious community, you need to know, you know, what’s grandma doing that smells a little funny.
Chris: Yep.
Josh: So many of our patients come from people that’s using cannabis in the home and they’ve got a family member, like a mother or grandmother, somebody else that’s dealing with an issue that cannabis can help with. That’s what we love, that people are out there sharing this idea and this treatment method with other people. And yeah, come on in, we’ll take care of you, we’ll get it taken care of for you and have that consult here as a family. It’s really cool, like I said, to have a bunch of people in here.
Tim: It’s been cool to talk to you about that, it’s a good perspective.
Chris: Dude, you’ve given us so much new information even, different angles compared to some of the people that we’ve talked to. Any other questions? I don’t know. I’m trying to think of any other… Any other things that you want to discuss while the mics are hot? I’m trying to think just so we don’t… Cards need to be wrapped up by the end of the year.
Josh: Yeah, that’s one thing that we need to really point out.
Chris: I know we say that on every episode, but it’s important.
Tim: Yeah, we are two weeks away from your letter not being valid.
Josh: And we’ve got what, about 12 000 letters out there that the state’s estimating, last I heard.
Tim: Yeah, that’s what the state is estimating and we know that-
Josh: There’s got to be more, yeah.
Tim: And it’s still, literally two weeks away, people. This is-
Josh: We’ve been hounding people, every time they come in with a letter we’re like, “Please go get your card, please help us… Help you get that card.”
Chris: What are you hearing why people aren’t? What’s the biggest holdup?
Josh: Money, usually, they don’t want to pay the $15.
Chris: Okay, so it’s $15, really is all it is.
Tim: Well, and it’s a lot of these letters still are not associated with QMPs.
Josh: Yep, and that’s probably the second biggest holdup. Some of them too are just elderly people that don’t have that internet competency to go through with that whole EVS process, which is complicated.
Chris: Oh it’s hard.
Tim: Yes it is.
Josh: For us it’s totally fine, I can go in and do it, you can go in and do it but-
Chris: I’ve stumbled around on that thing.
Josh: But you put somebody in front of a computer that’s 65 year old and-
Tim: We were supposed to have it, in the original bill it was supposed to be done in the doctor’s office at the time you got your card, it was part of the statute. They took it out because it was too cumbersome and they might have, should have left it in because it is hard and we’ve gone back to that.
Josh: A lot of the QMPs are doing it still, the good ones are doing it there. All the QMPs that we see that are doing it, their patients are having a much better experience. So if the QMPs are hearing me right now, please help your patients get that because that’s the first step, pretty much, is right at that first visit and you need it taken care of. I’m scared the new year is going to roll around and we’re going to have all these people that can’t come in here and get what they’ve been taking and using and benefiting from for the last six months. I don’t want that to happen to anybody and I’m afraid it’s going to happen to a lot of people, unfortunately.
Tim: Well, we’ll be ready.
Josh: Yep, we’re here.
Chris: Actually, while we have you on the podcast, let’s promote Deseret Wellness a little bit over the holidays. Are you guys going to be open the day after Christmas? The day before Christmas? New Years? What’s the plans there?
Josh: The only hour changes we’re having right now is Christmas Eve we’re going to be closing at 5 o’clock. After that, Monday through Saturday, 7-11, normal hours.
Chris: So day after Christmas is normal, which I believe is Friday, the day after Christmas-
Tim: You’re open til how late?
Josh: On Christmas Eve?
Tim: No, normal hours.
Josh: Seven.
Tim: Normal hours is 7 PM. 11 AM to 7 PM, six days a week.
Josh: Six days a week, yep.
Tim: Got it.
Josh: We’re closed on Sundays down here.
Chris: Okay.
Tim: Cool, I mean, it’s appropriate, you can’t be open down here on Sundays, I think there must be some rule-
Chris: No, Beehive I know is Sunday, I think Wholesome’s Sunday, I know Dragonfly’s not Sunday.
Tim: Yeah, I think Beehive and Wholesome. But this is a great… I like coming down here, I don’t really mind the drive.
Chris: No, it’s not a bad drive, especially if you guys have the product I could see a lot of people from Salt Lake coming down here for-
Josh: Oh, yeah. People will go where the flower is right now so if you’ve got flower you’ll get people from anywhere in the state, really.
Chris: What’s Deseret Wellness on all the social medias? Instagram, Facebook, are you on Twitter, do you know? I mean Twitter’s kind of one of those…
Josh: I haven’t seen a Twitter account. But yeah, Deseret Wellness or Deseret-Wellness, we’ve taken most of those handles.
Tim: Well it was great talking to you, Josh.
Chris: Yeah, it was great-
Josh: Thanks for coming down here, guys. We appreciate this, it’s nice to have some good conversations around medical cannabis in Utah and exploring some different ideas, I think it’s great. Thanks for coming down.
Tim: Well you can get ahold of me at Utahmarijuana.org, you can see our… A couple of billboards up now.
Chris: Are they all over now?
Tim: They’re kind of all over now, which is exciting.
Chris: Are they all mostly in Salt Lake, though?
Tim: Yep, they are mostly in Salt Lake., we’ve got a couple in Ogden. But Utahmarijuana.org is a good place and we’ve written a couple of blog articles about the letter situation and what’s going to change come January first. Decent place, I think, to get information. And our podcasts are all up there with summaries and they’ll be transcribed, we’re catching up on those.
Josh: So people can to you if they want to even get their letter-
Tim: Yeah, we have an entire program, so if you go to Utahmarijuana.org and you chat with us online or you call us, no matter who your QMP is, we will help you navigate the system and there’s no cost associated with that.
Chris: Just the $15 though, for the-
Tim: Just the $15 for the state. We’ll reach out to your QMP and if they’re not planning on becoming a QMP… Or we’ll reach out to the person who wrote your letter, I should say, if they’re not planning on becoming a QMP-
Chris: It was at that moment that I looked down, I noticed that the recorder was off, the SD card was full. But I also knew that the recording was almost over so I didn’t want to bag the rest of the conversation. I just told Tim, I said, “Hey, I’ll just close this out at home, I’ll say a few words. I’ll close out the podcast.”
So anyway, here I am, thank you so much for listening to that episode with Josh and Deseret Wellness, such a good pharmacy here in Provo. Go check them out if you’re in the area, say hello and tell them that Utah in the Weeds sent you. We also set up a voicemail number that you can call in if you have any questions for Tim or myself, if you have any feedback you want to give, or if you want to be a guest on the podcast. Give us a call 385-215-9557, nobody will ever pick that up for you, it goes right to voicemail, say a few words, we might play it on a future episode of the podcast, we would love to hear from you.
You can listen to my other podcast at IamSaltLake.com, I am Salt Lake podcast, I do that with my wife, Krissie. Go check it out, we’ve got a brand new episode every week. We’re talking to business owners, artists, musicians, tattoo artists, everybody here in Salt Lake City. IamSaltLake.com, go check that out, and Utahmarijuana.org, go check that out. Make sure you get your card by January first, there, because those letters aren’t any good after the end of the year.
Anyway, that’s all we have to say, make sure you subscribe in iTunes or wherever you’re listening to this podcast and we’ll catch you next week on the next episode of Utah in the Weeds.
With so many states now approving Medical Marijuana, it’s only natural that we would start seeing reciprocity pop up. In fact, this is exactly what is happening. Yet reciprocity – what we also call recognition – between the states doesn’t mean it is legal to transport Medical Cannabis across state lines. Interstate transport is still illegal and will remain so until we see changes in Washington D.C.
If you are planning to move to Utah, you’ll be happy to know that our state is one that practices limited recognition. All new Utah residents coming from other states from which Medical Marijuana is legal may possess and use Medical Marijuana for up to 45 days with a valid Medical Marijuana card from their original states.
After 45 days, that Medical Marijuana card is no longer recognized. Residents must apply for a Utah card to continue possessing and using Medical Marijuana. They must also have a state-issued card to purchase from a Utah dispensary regardless of how long they have been in the state.
Reciprocity is simply a recognition of privileges between entities. In a legal sense, it often exists as cooperation between states and covers a number of privileges for which state authority is required. Driving is an excellent example. Perhaps you have a Utah driver’s license. That license allows you to legally drive in all 50 states and the District of Columbia. This is due to reciprocity.
Under the legal doctrine, every U.S. state recognizes the validity of drivers licenses from other states. The states have agreed that drivers should not need to have separate licenses for every state they want to drive in. So they agree to recognize one another’s licenses as legal and valid.
Recognition of Medical Cannabis is similar. However, it doesn’t exist in all 50 states. To begin with, not all states have yet legalized Medical Cannabis. In addition, just over two dozen states offered some sort of recognition at the time this post was written. Note that reciprocity laws can vary quite a bit. Some states put no limits on purchases while others restrict sales to out-of-state buyers.
The more important part of this discussion relates to transporting Medical Marijuana across state lines. Cooperation notwithstanding, marijuana is still a controlled substance under federal law. That means you can’t purchase Medical Cannabis in one state and carry it with you into another state. This can create problems for patients going on vacation or visiting family.
Our recommendation is to contact any states you are planning to travel to prior to actually traveling. Find out if your current Medical Cannabis Card will allow you to purchase product at dispensaries in those states. If so, you’re golden. If not, you’ll have to decide how you want to handle traveling outside of your home state.
This is one of the unfortunate aspects of federal marijuana laws. If the federal government were to decriminalize Medical Marijuana, transporting product across state lines would no longer be an issue. You would be able to freely move between states that allow marijuana for medical use, bringing your product with you.
Those of us heavily invested in the Medical Marijuana industry are pursuing a goal of full recognition among the states. It probably won’t be realized until Washington D.C. decriminalizes Medical Cannabis and the remaining states still holding out get on board. But full recognition – similar to what we enjoy with drivers’ licenses – will hopefully be reality one day. It would be nice, for sure.
In the meantime, do your research before you travel out of state. And if you want to do more research about Medical Marijuana in Utah, check out our Utah in the Weeds Podcast.
