Join us live on the utahmarijuana.org and Utah in the Weeds Facebook pages on Friday 2/26 at 11:00 am. Tim and Chris will be recapping the first year of the podcast and give away a few prizes. We’ll also catch up with a bunch of past guests. The audio version will be posted to the podcast feed shortly after, and people will also be able to find the video recording on our Discover Marijuana YouTube channel. Don’t miss it!
Prop 2 protester and Medical Cannabis student Blake Silva is the special guest for episode 47 of Utah in the Weeds. In this episode, Tim and Chris have a fascinating conversation with a patient, activist, and student looking to get heavily involved in the Medical Cannabis space in the future.
Silva is a patient due to debilitating migraines. [04:16] He was introduced to Medical Cannabis by his mother, a patient herself because of fibromyalgia and trigeminal neuralgia. Silva is a certified cannabis sommelier and is now studying to become an extraction tech.
The first part of the show deals with the state of Utah’s cart space. [13:32] Silva is not all that impressed with the quality of either the cannabis liquids or carts through which they are dispensed. All three agreed that there was plenty of room for improvement with all things cart related.
Following the cart discussion, the three moved on to a discussion of cannabis-induced headaches. [17:50] Silva experiences them. From his understanding, they are caused by various terpenes. This is one of the things he is currently studying. He hopes to better understand which products are more likely to cause headaches by the time he finishes his education.
The discussion wrapped up with comments about the current state of cannabis growing and Medical Cannabis delivery in Utah. [30:08] Silva reiterated the fact that Utah’s Medical Cannabis program is still very young. He agreed with Tim and Chris’s assessment that things should drastically improve within a year or two.
Tim and Chris also talked briefly about their one-year anniversary podcast scheduled to be recorded live the following week. [01:54] They plan to have quite a few well-known guests for that podcast. If you can’t listen live, be sure to catch it as soon as you can.
Chris Holifield: Let’s welcome everybody out to episode 47 of Utah in the Weeds. My name is Chris Holifield.
Tim Pickett: And I’m Tim Pickett, medical cannabis — I guess expert medical provider, PA, and-
Chris Holifield: You’re the expert, Tim. You are the expert.
Tim Pickett: Might as well just lean into that pot doc. Is that what they call me on the news?
Chris Holifield: I love that pot doc.
Tim Pickett: You can find us at UtahMarijuana.org/podcast. All of our episodes are up there.
Chris Holifield: They can listen right there online. It’s great. I mean, a lot of people don’t even know how to listen to podcasts. Well, it’s like, just go to UtahMarijuana.org/podcasts. Listen right there.
Tim Pickett: Sweet. And today we have Blake Silva. He’s a Pharmacy Agent from Beehive Farmacy has a really cool story, got into cannabis and a famous has been on the news.
Chris Holifield: Yeah. He was talking about some protests that he’s helped lead and upset about the home grow here in Utah, as it seems like a lot of people, I know Bob Waters was the same way, and like, what was that, last week or the week before we had him running. And so it’s interesting to see these people’s drive and what motivates them, and then their involvement currently in the cannabis industry.
Tim Pickett: It’s interesting with Blake too, to watch his progression through the industry as an activist, then getting involved with companies here and moving along this path where he really does have a drive to learn. And I liked that part of our discussion. As far as housekeeping goes, just want to let everybody know that Wholesome has included a home delivery now to many more counties. And so if you’re a patient out there in one of the rural counties you could, if you don’t want to drive all the way up here, especially with the snow we’ve seen recently, Wholesome is offering that. So I think patients need to know that update. And-
Chris Holifield: We got to mention our show next week. We didn’t even mention our live show.
Tim Pickett: Oh, that’s right.
Chris Holifield: We got to mention. Okay. So our one-year anniversary for this podcast is basically going on right now. I mean, we started the end of February last year. Anyways, we’re going to do a live podcast recording. You can go to a UtahMarijuana.org Facebook page, or Utah on the Weeds Facebook page. I’m sure we’re going to stream in other outlets as well, but we’re going to try to do a little Facebook live, hopefully. I’m going to try to get it on like even Twitter and Instagram and possible but no guarantees there, but who… Yeah-
Tim Pickett: Next week, Friday, the 26th, 11 o’clock.
Chris Holifield: 26th, 11:00 AM Mountain Standard Time. So depending on where you’re at in the world, you can tune in and check it out. We should have it available that you can call in, leave a message. Now, if you’re listening, let’s say you’re listening right now and you aren’t available to watch it but you want to leave us a voice message, you can do that on our voicemail number. Nobody will ever pick this number up or this phone up if it rings, just call the voicemail number, leave a message. Let us know what you think of the podcast. Maybe your favorite episode over the last year, maybe you had a favorite person we had on and you just want to let us know. Our voicemail number is 385-215-9557. Give that a call. We’d love to hear from you. And we’ll play that on that episode, right Tim? With the one year anniversary, so.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. Absolutely. We played on the episode, I’m excited about this because we have some multiple guests coming on the show.
Chris Holifield: Let’s share things on. Tell the people who’s going to be there. Should we share who’s gonna be on?
Tim Pickett: We’ve got JD. Lauritzen, the leafy lawyer, who’s been featured in Salt Baked City’s upcoming release of their episode. David Sutherland. He was patient number one-
Chris Holifield: He was on episode two. And he was patient one, episode two of Utah in the Weeds.
Tim Pickett: Of ours, great guy, and Cole Fullmer, right?
Chris Holifield: Yeah. Cole Fullmer from Salt Baked City.
Tim Pickett:From Salt Baked City. I’m excited to talk to him too, because he’s got some updates on what’s happened over the whole year. He’s been really involved. So, it should be a good episode, Chris.
Chris Holifield: Let’s jump into that conversation with Blake Silva. Thank you so much for tuning in. You guys, have a great day.
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Chris Holifield: I wouldn’t mind even going back with Blake, like how he got introduced to cannabis. How cannabis came into his life.
Blake Silva: Oh, I love that.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. I’m interested in that. Blake, you look young. So, what’s up with cannabis in your house?
Blake Silva: So, actually I hate to be that guy and say that my mom was an influence to me, but I’m definitely a momma’s boy in a way of, she led me into the cannabis world, like super hard. A little backstory on that. My mom, she had a brain tumor when I was about like three or four years old. She was diagnosed with trigeminal neuralgia and fibromyalgia.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. Fibromyalgia.
Blake Silva: Yeah. There you go. And yeah, she was basically bedridden for like 16 years of my life and I didn’t really actually get to know her. And then she tried cannabis for the first time and she was able to function and it was mind blowing for me. It was like eye opening to me like that this plant, the simple plant that the government has been telling me since I was in elementary school….
Tim Pickett: Oh, yeah.
Blake Silva: …did that for my mom and gave her that power to fight at the Capitol and do all these crazy insane things in the cannabis industry to give patients access and stuff. And that kind of drive, I was like, you know what, this plant is something in the industry, I need to provide great medicine for patients or give them great advice because I know it was scary for my first time when I tried cannabis, but I had a great teacher and stuff, so.
Tim Pickett: Wow. That’s really cool. And talk about how you got involved because you’re pretty involved in the cannabis space now, Right?
Blake Silva: I guess I started getting involved with Prop 2. It helped my mother, Christine Stenquist, with the bill. I know she was like a baby bill at the time. And she was so excited for it and I was super hyped for it but I had no idea what actually was going on. And then after the compromise happened with the Prop 2, then I was like, wait, people can just do that. People can just disregard everything you worked for and throw stuff in. And then I got angry and decided to leave a Prop 2 protest up at the Capitol with a bunch of Facebook members. I think this was like 2018. And it was super cold too. It was like November or December. And it was snowing and everyone was still showed up and everything. We had our little Prop 2 signs and then we stuck them in the Capitol on their lawn and stuff.
Blake Silva: And we were so proud of ourselves and Fox News showed up and recorded all of us in there, impressed by it. But I think ever since that point, I met great people like Nate Kizerian and like a whole bunch of other people like Spencer McCann and stuff in the community that have spread my name around or just show appreciation towards my involvement with Prop 2 and stuff. And with my mom, especially, so.
Chris Holifield: Now to back up a little bit, you were mentioning, you didn’t really know what was going on with Prop 2 when your mom was heading that up, talk about that a little bit more. You just didn’t realize like what your mom was fighting for or?
Blake Silva: I didn’t realize how much access patients had. How much we were given the opportunity, for example, like four plants, you were able to grow at home-
Chris Holifield: With the original Prop 2.
Blake Silva: Yeah. With the original.
Tim Pickett: Passed by the population, right?
Blake Silva: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I think if a lot more patients realized all the access that we had in the original, there would have been a lot more backlash from the public on this compromised bill. But that’s just my personal opinion.
Chris Holifield: I would have to agree probably with you. I think a lot of the problem is people just, it was hard to keep up with the whole thing of really what was even going on.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. I tend to agree, Chris and Blake, and I was thinking about how much we may have lost in Prop 2 and into the compromise, for example, the four plants. This comes up a lot in our discussions. And at the same time, we know now so much more about cannabis than even we did a couple of years ago. And so it’s hard to know what we could have done then to make that better.
Chris Holifield: So Blake, you led a protest angry that Prop 2 didn’t pass as originally was planned to, right?
Blake Silva: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I was more like angry that the church stepped in and just played a role into it in a way, even though they say they didn’t, they definitely played a role with the legislators and stuff. I just heard a lot from all fronts and it just upset me how we’re like the only state that doesn’t have a separation church and state. And there are some patients here that really need this medicine and they just want to baby us. It’s like that funny meme that goes around and instead of a Utah life elevated it’s Utah life regulated. So they just love to baby you in a way that I think we’re adults enough to allow patients to have access to this great medicine. And we have such knowledgeable people here that we can provide great education but they just want to shut us down in ways and not even hear our end. I think that’s where my frustration branches from.
Chris Holifield: It happened at this protest that you led against Prop 2? Did anything happen from it, did you get the results?
Blake Silva: Nothing really happened. We weren’t really violent. We just started at the actual Mormon capitol conference — at the temple basically. And we marched all the way up to the Capitol with our Prop 2 signs and pretty much just staked it in the capital’s lawn. And we took a bunch of photos and I guess we just left our signs there and we just wanted them to hear us. We did a little of chanting and whatnot upfront just for the Prop 2 bill and stuff. And then that’s when Fox News showed up and started interviewing us and whatnot.
Tim Pickett: That’s cool. So how are you involved now? I mean, because now you’ve gotten right involved with Beehive Farmacy, yeah?
Blake Silva: Oh, yeah. So I think ever since that protest, my drive just kept on increasing. I started doing schooling out of state at the Trichome Institute in Colorado. Max Montrose is the owner of that Institute and he is so knowledgeable.
Chris Holifield: What is this Institute? Is it something to do with cannabis?
Blake Silva: Definitely. Has everything to do with the trichome heads off of cannabis. Basically I got certification as a certified cannabis sommelier, which means I could smell a flower or look at a flower and tell you what effects it would give you or tell you what kind of terpenes are on that flowerhead just by smelling it, which I think is great. That is so nifty.
Chris Holifield: It’s like a party trick!
Blake Silva: It is. People get excited over that, but I’m still learning. It’s tricky out there because there’s a lot of terpenes that are similar to each other. So I’m always learning more and that’s getting me excited. So I didn’t really stop once I got my certification at the Trichome Institute. I actually just barely started schooling at Green Flower, which is an extraction school. Because I think I want to be an extraction tech. I want to start making good carts for Utah. Because I feel like our cart game in Utah really needs some work.
Tim Pickett: Really?
Blake Silva: Yes. I’ve seen it. It’s-
Tim Pickett: And you’ve been involved since the beginning. You haven’t always worked at Beehive, right?
Blake Silva: No. Yeah. I worked up at Perfect Earth over in Ogden for a little bit there. I think that was the beginning of the summer of last year and they were great. True North, Perfect Earth, man, they were fantastic and whatnot. They’ve run out of flower. That’s all I can say. But other than that, they are a great company. They really put forth for their employees, but the second I heard that Bijan was opening up Beehive and his goals and aspirations. I knew that I had to jump ship and go to Beehive. It was just… he really cared for the patients and it sounded like he had intentions to provide a great cheap medicine for the patients or just great variety, which is I want to work for a company that does that for their patients, so.
Chris Holifield: What’s been the hardest thing for you working in a Farmacy, or has there been any obstacles that… Because I’m sure you deal with a lot of patients, right?
Blake Silva: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Holifield: They come in, they are expressing things they’re dealing with. Maybe even the laws. I know this is a very vague question, but I’m just curious what obstacles you’ve seen or run into day-to-day working so much with the patients they’re like that?
Blake Silva: I think has a lot to do with quality. That’s the number one thing patients tell me is when is things gonna get cheaper and or better quality here? And all I can tell them is that, this is a baby program. We just barely started and we’ve been active for like, not even two years. Give it like a few more years. And I’m sure we’ll be like out of state programs and whatnot, but some of these companies are trying way hard to supply medicine for us like Tryke and whatnot. They have been single-handedly supplying flour to most of these dispensers when no one else has. And then people will just light them up saying that their flowers just not as good, but we were still getting there.
Blake Silva: And another thing is the carts here. I don’t know what it is, but every carts at almost every dispensary there’s issues. For this is me coming from Perfect Earth to Beehive, to actually look going down to Curaleaf and seeing what’s going on with Curaleaf carts or Dragonfly’s carts, because I know portable medicine for patients is also very important. My mom, because she’ll get a tax on the go and stuff and she’ll need to hit a cart. But some of the carts in Utah it’s like the strength is getting taken out and stuff. And I don’t know what’s behind it all. And that’s why I want to get my hand in the door and see if I can change anything or become the better cart distributor in Utah. If that’s an opportunity for me.
Chris Holifield: That’s interesting. Have you heard much about any of that Tim, any complaints from patients or anything?
Tim Pickett: Well, it does seem like there’s a little bit of drama around the carts. There was some discussion around MCT oil being added to the carts and how much of that. We talked to Kyle Egbert about this and, Dragonfly has removed their MCT oil or maybe never even put it in and Zion has taken it out of their karts as well. And then there’s… So MCT is no longer a part the carts. So that’s a good thing. The second thing, there’s more and more information about cannabinoids that are in those vape cartridges and cannabis derived derivatives of cannabinoids. So this delta-8 versus delta-9. How much delta-8 is in the cart when cannabis doesn’t produce a lot of delta-8 on its own. So it does seem like there’s some information there that we need to get into it a little bit more. So, I tend to agree. You feel like I’m on the right path there Blake?
Blake Silva: It’s super frustrating. Yeah. Especially when you have older folk come in and they spent so much on a cartridge and sometimes it’s not even down to what’s inside the cartridge, its actual functionality of the cartridges itself. The companies will go skimpy on these carts and they will end up leaking all over the place or just not working for the patients. And man, I just share their frustration on it. And I just wish I can… This is the only way I can get the word out is just by letting you guys know that, then there’s just issues that these Pacers are expressing about the carts that… They almost feel like they have to go back to black market because these, like certain products here are just not there yet. So, and I want to be able to make patients trust the pharmacies that they go to 100% because I want this to succeed here.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. I mean you bring up a good point. It’s not only the medicine, if it just doesn’t work. You can’t screw on that thread drop it into a battery and have it work till the material’s gone. And what’s the point?
Blake Silva: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Depressing at that point.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. That’s stuff that I wasn’t really aware of that they’re having so much that was a bigger issue maybe than we had talked about.
Chris Holifield: Can pharmacy take returns back? I mean, I guess is that something that-
Blake Silva: Yes. So some pharmacies won’t actually, but as far as I know, Beehive will take returns back and they’ll actually swap you out for a brand new cart or credit you towards something else, which is so nice. I’m so glad that they do that because that’s great customer service.
Chris Holifield: That’s tough on patients. I mean, you go drop, 50, 80 bucks on a cart and then it doesn’t work. I mean, that could be the rest of your money until the next pay day, you know what I mean?
Blake Silva: Yeah. And you’re just holding onto it and it’s just that feeling. I’m sure everyone’s held that feeling of, “I can’t use my medicine it’s right here,” and you just feel terrible. And I don’t want people to go through that. It’s awful.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. And we had talked to Bijan when we talked to him on the other episode about some products that they’re developing where they have metered dose.
Blake Silva: Oh, yeah.
Tim Pickett: And changing the inhalation method. But again, I think those things are probably a year away from being available, right?
Blake Silva: Yeah. Excited for that. Yeah. You’re right.
Tim Pickett: Can I switch gears and talk, because carts are going to be a part of this question in this migraine thing… Can we talk a little bit about, you had mentioned that you have migraines and there’s a lot of… We’ve been discussing this a ton in our clinics, not only migraine headaches and how cannabis can help for migraine pain, but also cannabis causing headaches. So Blake, talk to me about your migraines and cannabis.
Blake Silva: I actually was curious on this because I’ve had migraines since I was 10 or 11 for some reason. And they would get so bad that I would just be nauseated in the bathroom, lights would set me off. I’d be out for like a day or two. And my mom would try to tell me that it might be chronic from some of the stuff she got from the trigeminal neuralgia and whatnot. I was like, no, I don’t think there’s got to be something else. So I actually went and did some blood work and an EKG and stuff. And my EKG came back positive and I actually have a hole in my heart that directs too much blood flow to my head. So, when pressure fronts come in, I just get destroyed by these migraines and cannabis actually it’s like the only thing that can take these migraines away in like seconds, like 15 seconds, 10 seconds.
Blake Silva: I take some Tylenol or like Ibuprofen and stuff and I just can’t handle it. My stomach gets nauseated. I just started throwing up. But cannabis it’s just like the pain has gone instantly. And if you suffer from migraines, you cannot express how amazing it is because the grief from migraines is just unreal.
Tim Pickett: So you using an inhaled are using cartridges or flower?
Blake Silva: Honestly, flower is the best. I actually own a Volcano. I like filling up a bag and keeping my medicine in the bag next to me if I’m like next to the toilet or something. So I’m not in like a rush to smoke something, but cartridges are the next best thing. Because you’re not have a limited time, with some of these vape devices which frustrates me. Because some of these patients they’ll be in an attack and they can’t take their medicine instantly. And so the old burn and an oven, like one of these DaVinci’s or something else and their product will be wasted or something. This is just little things that I’ve noticed with my mom. I’m comparing other patients to this pain that my mom has experienced and stuff. So Volcano, I can not praise it enough. The fact that you can hold your medicine, the bag and just take sips of it a little bit at a time and get your medicine through that. Oh, it’s a brilliant product.
Chris Holifield: Yeah. No. I love my Volcano. I know Tim hears that almost every week too, when I talk about that thing.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. So have you ever had cannabis induce a headache?
Blake Silva: I have had that before and I was totally confused until I actually did schooling at my Trichome Institute and thought it probably could be one of two things. Thing number one could be a delta-8. I feel like it is a phytocannabinoid and it’s just less psychotropic affecting. When I smoked some of the delta-8 carts and I know it’s a delta-8 cart, I get like a back of the head high, but I don’t actually get high. And I sit there trying to chase a high and then I noticed a slight stabbing headache starting here. So that could be one of the things. But I also notice that, I’m going to break this down for you. So there’s actually no such thing as a strain sativa or a strain indica, everything is indica-indica because through generations we’ve just colonized and breed at the plant so intensely that there’s no straight sativa but there is a narrow leaf or a broad leaf plant.
Blake Silva: The broad leaf plants are the indica based plants. And then narrow leaf are the sativa, but narrow leaf is actually more close to hemp. So I feel like the sativa or hemp based plants could be also giving you a headache as well, because we don’t know a lot of information based off of it, but those are my two.
Tim Pickett: So, no, I didn’t prep this question before, but you’ve said exactly what we talk about with patients and that is, that… And then we could talk about this delta-8 thing too, but I think in our experience is the sativa type terpenes and derivatives tend to stimulate headaches, like cannabis induced headaches more. And you pointed in your, like we’re watching you on the video here and you pointed to the side of your head and people get this side of the head headache-
Chris Holifield: Those are the worst.
Blake Silva: Mm-hmm (affirmative). It’s so bad. It feels like a knife stabbing your head or something and it’s splitting almost. Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Now, the delta-8, I don’t know if you could talk about this too, but in your experience is do you think the delta-8 products in the market now tend to be sativa like the carts, right?
Blake Silva: Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim Pickett: They tend to have those sativa terpenes and so we’ve been adjusting the recommendations to increase indica type delivery. Like indica type products when people get headaches from the plants, right?
Blake Silva: For sure. Definitely. Yes. More of those broadleaf plants, more indica dominant plants because I feel like the narrow leaf, the sativa, the high energy terpenes and stuff. They’re just too hempy of plants. It causes headaches to get like that full spectrum into the cart and stuff. I wish I knew more past it, but that’s why I’m doing this school. So I could know like 100% through trial and error.
Tim Pickett: No. I mean, I think it’s important to just talk to people because there’s not a ton of studies on this. And so really we’re just getting our information from patients-
Blake Silva: Word of mouth is the best.
Tim Pickett: Right. I mean, there’s a legit in medicine. If it works for you, it’s actually more likely to work for me just because I heard it, that way?
Chris Holifield: Yeah. It’s weird how it works that way.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. It’s weird how the human physiology works that way.
Blake Silva: Yeah. It does. And everyone’s different. You’re your own doctor at this point. So a lot of trial and error has to happen with some patients. That’s what I tell them every time too, “If this gives you a headache, okay, let’s switch gears and try to do something more like this, because I guarantee you this one won’t give that other person a headache,” because they love that stuff. So it’s really difficult to figure out why this head person gets a headache from this and why this other person won’t. So I want to know the science behind that.
Tim Pickett: Does Utah law and Beehive and all of these other pharmacies — Is it pretty restrictive as far as how much advice you can give the patient? Because like you’re not the pharmacist, you’re not the QMP. So how does that affect your job when you kind of, I mean, you’re really an expert.
Blake Silva: Yeah. It affects it hard. I want to give people such great advice because of my schooling. I want to ask them what their issue is and like go into high detail of their background stuff. But I know that, that’s reserved for the pharmacist and I probably don’t know as much as I could know. And I think the state is just worried that I could guide someone in the wrong direction and cannabis and potentially mess them up. But I can guarantee that, to this day, I have not seen someone completely “messed up from cannabis.” And it’s like a lot of trial and error. Like I go back to saying.
Chris Holifield: So if you can’t give patients advice, my question is, how many of these patients are getting the help they need from their QMPs? I mean, and I guess the three of us, we won’t really truly know that because I know Tim helps his patients but I know a lot of people out there don’t help their patients and not because they don’t want to. It’s just because they’re probably not as educated as they should be.
Blake Silva: Yeah. And I think that’s where it’s hard is because the QMPs provide great information, such good information, but that they only get to see them like once or twice, and then they don’t ever see them. They just go to the dispensary. And then they talk to the pharmacist at dispensary, which the pharmacist, no offense to dispensary’s and whatnot. But the pharmacist sees patients every hour, all day. It’s becomes more of a monotonous droney thing. And so they don’t give 100% every time in a way. I assure you that we do try to give it 100% of your time but sometimes they need a little more questions, answer because we do get a line of patients at the door that we have to help. So that’s where I like to come in handy, or I like to be the extra backup pharmacist or pharmacy agent. I feel like I need to have knowledge on what I’m selling to patients. That’s super important. So then I start asking a few key questions without overriding the pharmacist’s suggestion. I just give my two bits on educational things that they ask me.
Tim Pickett: It really does require a whole team approach. I mean, you say, a lot of these, the QMP’s are giving good information but I don’t know. And I’m biased of course, with our system but-
Blake Silva: I get great stuff from you. But I agree there are some QMPs that just want to make those sales and stuff. And it’s hard because there’s a lot of snake oil salesman in Utah, whether it be-
Tim Pickett: Right. I mean, come on in, I’ll just give you the state max and you’re good, you qualify, you can go buy four ounces of flower, do whatever you want.
Blake Silva: Exactly. They just have like a stack of cards —
Tim Pickett: Then we have this whole new thing. Do you have an opinion about letting non-educated providers write for 15 carts? Have you heard about this?
Blake Silva: Yeah. And I feel like I strongly disagree to for that, because there has been people like you and me that have fought so hard to get where we are and, or to get patients access and stuff. And we don’t want the street, people were like street life to come into the medical life like instantly we want to keep things clean. We want the state to see that we can have a respectable program and whatnot. So yes, I agree. I want to push those people out and they need to be brought to light, for sure.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. And I just think also people need to be educated before they are recommending this as a treatment because cannabis is strong.
Blake Silva: It is strong.
Tim Pickett: And I think we all three agree. We love it. Right?
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: But it’s not weak medicine.
Blake Silva: To us. It’s like a cup of coffee to someone else, it could be completely different, so.
Tim Pickett: Everybody reacts differently with it. That’s the best part in my opinion but also the scariest part for some people because they don’t know how they’re going to react.
Blake Silva: And I think that builds up the anxiety for cannabis, honestly, is they keep on overthinking it and the mind is a powerful thing and you overthinking can build that anxiety and make the cannabis a worse experience for you. So if you go in with a calm and cool personality or just mindset, you should be able to be fine in any situation.
Chris Holifield: So Blake, are you doing anything currently to push like growing in Utah? I know you did the back to the beginning when we were talking, you were doing some protests. Are you doing anything currently or even… I mean, maybe this is even a question for Tim even, and I know again, we’ve probably talked about this but when can we bring that back up to Capitol Hill and say, “Hey, we want growing here in Utah. Let’s make this happen.” Is that only a once a year thing that we can present? Because I know they only meet for about 45 days up on the Hill. Blah-blah-blah is that… I mean, can we get growing in Utah?
Tim Pickett: What do you think Blake, because I know what I think.
Blake Silva: Yeah. I did hear rumors and stuff going around that they were going to try to push another bill up to allow growing again for patients who can’t make it to dispensary’s that are like in capacitated and stuff for any number of reasons, whether it be health or just like physical or mental reasons and there was another good point of this delivery system. So if someone gets super stoned, like let’s say that they hypothetically joined the system, jumped all the hoops they needed and they just wanted to get, weed, and they were just too stoned to leave. And third, so like delivery is perfect as opposed to the patient that is in so much pain and can’t make it to the dispensary and needs that delivery. Some of these dispensaries don’t care who is who, that they’re just wanting to deliver it. So that person, they just too stoned to go to the dispensary will be the first pick over the person that’s in too much pain. That’s getting that small amount of cannabis over.
Blake Silva: Basically, what I’m saying is people with money are being a lot more targeted and valued in the industry as opposed to people that are actually needing this medicine and stuff. It’s very cutthroat from the start it’s feeling like, and that’s not what we wanted, for sure. And that’s not what a medical cannabis program should be. So.
Chris Holifield: Yeah. Well, we’ve talked about that. I think that was even with Bob Waters, if I’m not mistaken, Tim. I mean, was talking about how only the people with money and then it goes back to the lower income people tend to get the shaft.
Blake Silva: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. And that’s what I was going to say to this question really that Chris asked. You Blake, until the growers and the license holders have basically are going to allow home grow, then you’re probably not going to get it. Because how do you get legislation passed in this day and age? Well, you hire a lobbyist. You go up to Capitol Hill, you negotiate with the legislator. And that costs a lot of money.
Blake Silva: It does.
Tim Pickett: And the patients don’t have a lot of money. The patients who need home grow, they don’t have a lot of money. The medical providers, we don’t have a really great organization. The Utah medical association is really not pro-cannabis. So they don’t really support us in this expansion of the program-
Blake Silva: Yeah. All of those things.
Tim Pickett: So I really do think the little guy is going to get left out for a while until those growers and those, let it go.
Blake Silva: By probably reaching max capacity, unfortunately. Because I know that one of the state’s —
Tim Pickett: I think so. Bob water said though, in our interview before revenue is fuel and we’ve got up, unfortunately until there’s enough of that in the system that there’s excess.
Blake Silva: That’s what I tell people. It will get better in like a year or two. Things will get so much better because some of these grows they’re increasing their grow by like 400% and stuff like that. That’s huge. And there’s going to be just so much access to flower for all these patients and the prices will drop down tremendously. So, it’s coming. I just feel like we need to refine it a little, like these cart things. And our edibles here need work because if you take the same kind of edible, like these Hygge edibles every day for a while, you’re going to build a tolerance to it. I don’t care who you are. It’s just your body will get used to you taking that. So you need variety. I just feel like gummies aren’t going to work always in Utah and stuff like that. So, we do need out of state influence, like shatter-infused things and drinks and suckers and stuff. But that’s just my opinion. I hope that that gets pushed at the Capitol as well, because I would be so excited to see that here.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. I totally agree. We need more variety and I can see, be by the end of the year, there’s going to be quite a bit of flower in the market with all these guys other than basically Tryke’s supporting the whole market right now.
Blake Silva: And I don’t know if you guys heard about the out of state companies coming into Beehive or not, but Sherbinskis and Cookies coming in from California into Beehive, probably around March or April. They’re going to bring a lot of product with them and or genetics to grow here. So that is super excited. We’re exciting. I don’t know how they are able to pull that off but that’s something that the state of Utah needs is out of state influence, not just from certain growers, trying to make money off things like actually trying to get quality medicine inside.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. I know with cookies, that’s a super popular strain for pain. It is the most popular that I know of. Strain for pain: Girl Scout Cookies. So having that here would be a big deal.
Chris Holifield: Oh, yeah.
Blake Silva: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Holifield: Now Beehive offering delivery yet? Have they started —
Blake Silva: Oh, yeah. That’s coming soon. I think they’re waiting on their Brigham store to open before they have delivery available. So, and they had to push the Brigham store a couple of times just because of the state, which is frustrating thing because I think Park City was trying to open as well.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. I’m not 100% but I think Park City is now open.
Blake Silva: Is it?
Tim Pickett: Yes.
Blake Silva: Oh nice.
Tim Pickett: It’s in Kimball Junction Desert Wellness, they opened on last week. No, Chris, they opened this week.
Chris Holifield: Yeah. We’re supposed to open last week and I think they had to push it out — but if they’re open now that’s great.
Tim Pickett: But takes a long time to get these things done. And there are not very many cart holders in Summit County and I’m sure there are not very many cart holders up in Brigham City.
Blake Silva: Mm-hmm (affirmative). It’s true.
Chris Holifield: I wonder why there’s not very many up in Summit. You would think there’d be a turn up there.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. You would think, but the last report from the department of health only showed 200 card holders in Summit County. I mean, that is not very many at all. It’s not enough to support a pharmacy or a dispensary for sure.
Blake Silva: I wonder. Yeah, that’s wild.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, because I was curious, I haven’t tried the delivery yet. I was just wondering how difficult that delivery is to get product or… Let’s say somebody lives in a far out there, let’s say Delta, Utah. I know that’s kind of far out there.
Tim Pickett: Oh, yes. So-
Chris Holifield: I mean, what does somebody do, can they call up one of these delivery places? Will they be able to call it Beehive and then you’ll drive it down to him Blake, or do they… I mean, how does that work?
Blake Silva: Should be able to. I’m curious on that too, I don’t know how we going to roll it. I don’t know that.
Chris Holifield: Yeah. You probably don’t know all the answers either. I know a couple places that are doing delivery, but I was just curious how it works.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. Wholesome delivers in Carbon County, Duchesne County, Uintah County, Iron, Washington. They opened up delivery just as of this week for all of those rural counties which is pretty impressive.
Blake Silva: That is nice.
Tim Pickett: To get people their medicine, they do have some coupon codes that people can use for those deliveries. I know Wholesome was offering free delivery for their first delivery free to let people try it, see how it worked. We have an article on UtahMarijuana.org where you can get that coupon code. And we sent it out to our patients, but that is a long way away to deliver from here.
Chris Holifield: I mean, that’s like an all-day trip. That’s what I’m wondering. One delivery driver might only be able to take one delivery to a patient that day, depending on where they need to go. That’s why I’m wondering how it all works.
Blake Silva: Yeah. And that’s why I’m worried it might fail too, is if you’re missing a driver and you’re out doing a run at a long distance, how many drivers are you going to have for no orders coming in? Because I work with a system called Dutchie where people can order online and we can hold it for 48 hours and whatnot. And I feel like even such a brilliant system is that it has its flaws. I just don’t know where these extra drivers are going to come from. You’re going to need a lot of drivers because some of these people are going to really want cannabis out in the middle of nowhere. First, before people here.
Chris Holifield: Maybe I need to start the same job. Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Right. The furthest South dispensary in Northern Utah is going to be in Payson. And then you’re not going to have one again until Cedar City. And those two pharmacies are going to have to service the entire central and Eastern part of the state. There’s nobody in Vernal. Vernal, Moab, Blanding, none of that. They’re going have to drive to Payson or something like that.
Blake Silva: I definitely want to ask, Wholesome from the other delivery is doing so far because they only have the-
Chris Holifield: I’m sure not very well for now.
Tim Pickett: I think there’s one order in Duchesne, that’s a long way. You got to drive super long where to get there.
Blake Silva: Is super long. Yeah. It And I know dragonfly’s trying to get their delivery started too.
Chris Holifield: They probably have a minimum. And it’s probably like 72 hours that they probably can’t guarantee same day and all that and then depending on where you are.
Tim Pickett: Dragonfly’s doing a really good job of trying to get involved in the community too-
Blake Silva: Have noticed that. Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Where they’re downtown and we’ve got a little partnership with them to raise a little bit of money for a private school downtown and just trying to get involved even in the local communities to let people know they’re here, we still see patients and I’ll bet you do too Blake. Don’t you see patients that are like, well, yesterday I didn’t even know this was illegal.
Blake Silva: Yeah. All the time.
Tim Pickett: Like a year later.
Blake Silva: Yeah. And it’s so funny to me, or people that have no experience at all with cannabis and we still get that all the time. And that’s just surprising to me, honestly, in this day and age, because I feel like cannabis has such a limelight right now. And it has the spotlight for sure from this country but yet it’s still being treated like a federal one substance.
Tim Pickett: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Holifield: Well, cool. I don’t know. I mean, do you have any other questions from Tim or should we get this episode wrapped up or anything else you want to bring up Blake, before we wrap this episode up? I mean, I’ve had a great time getting to know your story a little bit and finding out what you got going on. I think we covered most of the things of what you’re involved in and-
Blake Silva: For sure. Hopefully-
Tim Pickett: It’s been a fun conversation about what we all think of the system and what we’re looking forward to for the next few months.
Blake Silva: Yeah. Awesome. Hopefully the next time you guys see me, I’ll work at life elevated. So that’s my goal right now to go work for Jilu.
Tim Pickett: Really? Really cool.
Blake Silva: Yeah. Because I know Justin and stuff, so he’s amazing.
Chris Holifield: What is that? That sounds like heal you. What-
Blake Silva: What is Jilu? Yes, it is the carts.
Tim Pickett: Okay. Yeah. Okay. I was like I know they sound familiar.
Tim Pickett: Shout out to those because they have an indica cart that is very, very good. Relaxing…
Blake Silva: Oh yeah, Gorilla Glue? Number four. Yeah.
Tim Pickett: It’s Gorilla Glue. That product is top notch in my opinion. And although it does… I mean, I think the smell, if… I don’t know, we need a rating system, Chris, on how we measure products.
Chris Holifield: Let’s do it. Like let’s come up with something.
Blake Silva: Yeah. We need stuff like that.
Tim Pickett: I’m going to put this stuff on the lower end because like for me, it smells fine. But for, for people who don’t like the cannabis smell, it’s not that great because it smells like cannabis. That Gorilla Glue.
Blake Silva: It does. Tastes like cannabis too.
Tim Pickett: Right. Like it has a strong — It tastes like cannabis and smells like cannabis. And a lot of people with carts don’t like that, but
Blake Silva: That’s true.
Tim Pickett: I think they do a great job in their cart manufacturing and that product does not cause headaches as far as I can tell.
Blake Silva: Yeah. You’re right.
Tim Pickett: Very relaxing. Yeah. Good quality product. I would definitely endorse that product for sure.
Chris Holifield: Well, cool. Do you have like an Instagram or anything Blake that people can check? I mean, I don’t know if you do any cannabis Instagram or do anything that people can connect with you there?
Blake Silva: Yes. It’s @glowingploxy funny story behind that name. Ploxy was a strain I wanted to grow at some point just because I know quite a bit into non glandular and glandular trichomes which are basically, there’s no bold at the end of the trichomes, they’re just like a straight spike and I just feel like there’s potential in those trichomes. I feel like you could probably make something new out of them.
Tim Pickett: @glowingploxy.
Blake Silva: @glowingploxy.
Chris Holifield: Awesome. So connect with Blake there. Let them know you heard them on Utah in the Weeds Podcast and go-
Tim Pickett: Go by and see him at Beehive Farmacy.
Chris Holifield: What’s the address of Beehive Farmacy? I mean, I know it’s right across the street from one of your clinics there Tim, if you only know that I just put Blake probably knows Beehive’s address.
Blake Silva: Yeah. I do know. It’s a 1991 South 3600 West South Salt Lake. Right down from the Del Taco and Maverick. So you’ll see a big green sign. You can’t miss it though.
Chris Holifield: Give them a plug since you’re on the podcast. I figured. And then your website is like Beehive Farmacy with F so.
Tim Pickett: Beehive Farmacy with the F.
Chris Holifield: Yeah. And then they can go and put an ordering get their medicine right there from the website, pick it up. You guys take Hypur and all that. That’s great. You guys take a drive through.
Blake Silva: Right. You guys take Hypur, we are super quick. We’re so fast and drive through too. I don’t like to boast or anything, but like, Oh, I’ve seen how quick we are. We’re just amazing. So yeah.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. So these guys are good they’re you get good advice down there.
Blake Silva: Yes. For sure.
Tim Pickett: Thanks Blake.
Blake Silva: You’re welcome.
Chris Holifield: Thank you so much, Blake. It’s been a pleasure. Let’s catch up down the road, buddy.
Blake Silva: Thanks for having me for sure. Chris. Thanks Tim.
Tim Pickett: Yes. All right, everybody stay safe out there.
Whether you’re in a romantic relationship or not, Valentine’s Day can come with a lot of emotions and stress. Because this past year has been a rollercoaster for all of us, we think that this year, it should be all about YOU. In the infamous words of RuPaul Charles, “If you don’t love yourself, how in the hell are you going to love anyone else?” Here are some of our favorite ways to relax and practice self care with or without a partner.
In times of high stress, it’s important to stay grounded. Many people turn to meditation to help them do this. If, like me, meditation has always seemed a bit intimidating to you, or if you find it downright impossible to shut your brain off, there are still meditation options for you. Mobile apps like Calm or Headspace offer various forms of guided meditation to follow along with and keep you focused. I personally have the attention span of a goldfish, and I’ve found that I get a lot of the same benefits of meditation from adult coloring books and soft music. Meditation is different for everyone!
2. Take a bath.Listen. I am a big fan of extravagant, luxurious baths. I think it’s something not enough people indulge in, and I just can’t understand why. Get into it! Grab some yummy bubble bath, some salts, candles, and a book, TV show, or some music, and you’re good to go. You can even add a CBD bath bomb for that little extra bit of relief. (Usually sold at your local health food store or CBD shop.) If you feel kind of bougie setting this all up, you’ve done it right. Now, grab a glass of wine or your favorite vape cart and hop in that tub!
Many people hold tension all throughout their bodies without even realizing it. I know that when I got my first professional massage, I was so surprised afterward at the feeling of walking around with no pain or tightness in my back. And to think, people feel like that all the time?! Wild. If you’ve been looking for a sign, I’m here to tell you that you deserve a massage. Or, as a cheaper option with a romantic twist, take turns with your partner giving each other massages. Add a bit of a THC or CBD topical to that sexy, intimate mix and you’ve got yourself quite a lovely night.
4. Lean on Bob Ross.I don’t know about you, but nothing relaxes me like happy little trees. Whether you’re an artist or not, it’s oddly satisfying to watch. You can’t deny that. For a fun date activity or afternoon with friends, turn it into a paint night! Bust out your canvases and paintbrushes and follow along with Bob to see which of you is hiding a secret talent. Paint nights are often held in bars and drinks are served as an added twist, but if drinking isn’t your thing, any little treat will do. I suggest peanut M&Ms, because everything is better with peanut M&Ms.
You know that show that everyone gives you a hard time for loving or asks how you can stand it? Watch that one. Watch as many episodes as you want. Watch the whole series, then start it over and watch it again in the name of self care.
With many of us self-isolating and working from home, it’s easy to forget about the outside world. I know I sure do some days. But really, we’re just like plants. We need water and sunlight to survive, so get outside! We are lucky to live in Utah and are surrounded by postcard scenery at every turn — the outdoor possibilities are endless. Go for a hike, a run, or a walk. Have a picnic, read a book on the lawn, or tend your garden. Just get outside a bit and soak up a little sun.
This one might seem silly, but bear with me here. Sometimes you’ve got to dance. Lock yourself in a room, turn on your jam, and let loose. Have a friend, loved one, or pet join you if you’re feeling extra free-spirited! It doesn’t have to be long, but I promise, after about 60 seconds of dancing with all you’ve got, you’ll feel noticeably better. I’m no scientist, but that’s just science: dancing makes you happy.
I’m not going to sit here and tell you that cleaning your space will be fun. I have many other things I’d rather do than clean most days. However, from personal experience, I can tell you that every time someone told you that a cluttered desk makes for a cluttered mind, they were right. The same goes for your bedroom, home, car, etc. It’s been said that by taking pride in your space and straightening the area around you, you’re more likely to feel productive, focused, and inspired. Don’t believe me? Bust out the bleach and sponges and get to scrubbin’. You can thank me later.
Sometimes all you need is warm food made with love. Cooking with your loved ones can be a great bonding activity, but that’s not to say that you can’t take this suggestion on your own. For ultimate relaxation and medicinal benefit, try making a cannabis-infused meal. Here’s a Valentine’s Day-themed menu that looks extra dank. Pro-tip: If you’d rather not deal with 
the smell associated with many cannabutter-based recipes, here are some fun, Valentine’s Day-themed cocktails (that can also be turned into mocktails) for you to try out. Add a few drops of your tincture for that same medicinal effect.
Though a lot of these recommendations had some cannabis-related twists, it’s important to remember that cannabis is only legal in Utah to patients with their Medical Cards. To unlock all those amazing canna-benefits above, I invite you to book a new patient appointment for you and someone you love at Utah Therapeutic Health Center for $80 off with the mushy-gushy lovey-dovey promo code LOVE420. Yes, you read that correctly: that’s $40 off for BOTH OF YOU (UTTHC’s biggest discount ever!). You deserve to feel better and so do your loved ones. Is there really any greater gift than that? (Edit: this promotion has now expired.)
However you choose to do it, love yourself this Valentine’s Day — and every day while you’re at it. For more information about how Medical Cannabis treatment can help you feel better, check out a few articles on our blog and read through our FAQ section. Don’t be a stranger — reach out to us at any time at the number in the top right corner of this page. Call or text — we’d love to hear from you. Wishing you a happy, safe, relaxing Valentine’s Day from all of us here at UtahMarijuana.org.
Education is one of the primary goals of the Utah in the Weeds podcast. Tim and Chris seek to learn something new with every guest they interview. They sure had plenty of opportunities to do just that while recording episode 46. They spoke with Boojum founder and CEO Dashiel Kulander about a number of fascinating topics in the hemp and CBD space. [02:18]
Kulander came to the cannabis industry from Southern California, where he worked in entertainment before launching his own marketing firm focused squarely on the cannabis industry. He eventually returned to Utah where he started Boojum, [05:35] a company that processes hemp and CBD. Boojum was one of the first hemp processors to be licensed in the state.
Much of the discussion in episode 46 centers around how Boojum and its staff transform raw ingredients into usable products. [18:22] The company doesn’t deal in any flower products. They concentrate on things like tinctures, oral sprays, gummies, and so forth. White label products are also on the table.
Kulander explained that Boojum puts a heavy emphasis on education and research. [26:27] Education is all about making sure patients understand how their medications work as well as which products will work the best for them. In terms of research, Kulander is passionate about making Medical Cannabis products as specific and exacting as other pharmaceuticals. His company is constantly researching ways to make that happen. [40:48]
While the conversation between Tim, Chris, and Dashiel gets a little technical at times, they make the topic easy to understand. This is a fascinating episode from the perspective of an industry expert who has a passion for hemp and CBD as medicines. Both Kulander and Boojum are determined to make the Utah market stronger as time goes by.
Tim Pickett: Welcome to episode 46 of Utah in the Weeds.
Chris Holifield: I’m Chris Holifield.
Tim Pickett: And I’m your host, Tim Pickett, medical cannabis expert in Utah. This week we have Dashiel, the CEO of Boojum, who we talked to — and it was a pretty interesting conversation — about the market in Utah, his background.
Chris Holifield: Terpenes. I mean, we got into we got into all the different cannabinoids.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, we got into some pretty technical aspects of cannabis and Boojum’s products, how they pick products, their most-
Chris Holifield: It was fascinating. It was really fascinating, because like you said, how do people decide which products are going to hit the shelves? And that’s why you got to listen to this episode to find out how they do their products, how they get their products, where they’re going-
Tim Pickett: He revealed his most common, or his-
Chris Holifield: The popular-
Tim Pickett: … which product is most popular. And I think it’s a good… It’s great in Utah because we don’t have a huge market, and there’s not a ton of players in the market, so we’re able to interview these guys. And you can really get a handle or a sense of who these companies are-
Chris Holifield: You get an intimate relationship with them almost, you know?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, absolutely.
Chris Holifield: So you’re going to enjoy this conversation. Go to utahmarijuana.org/podcast to listen to all the podcast episodes. You can listen right there on the website, you could subscribe in whatever podcast player you listen to this in, and-
Tim Pickett: Absolutely. As far as maybe a little bit of housekeeping, just so patients are aware, Utah Therapeutic, utahmarijuana.org is opening up in Bountiful and soon to be back in Provo in the next little while. So if you are a patient and you need help, reach out to us there.
Chris Holifield: Utahmarijuana.org is the website for that. And you can go to iamsaltlake.com to listen to my other podcast, I am Salt Lake podcast, go check that out. If you love interviews with people in Utah go give that one a listen. But otherwise, let’s get into this conversation, Tim.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I’m excited.
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Chris Holifield: Anyways, here we go, guys. Let’s start with you, what got you involved in Boojum? Is that a good place to start?
Tim Pickett: That’s a great place to start. We were talking a little bit before we even started recording, the story, it’s pretty interesting.
Dashiel: Yeah. So I’ll back it up just a little bit in terms of how I came to founding Boojum with my partner. So grew up down in Moab, Utah, after that I bailed I was like, “All right, I got to go to another state.” My parents wanted me to go to a good university, ended up going to San Diego, ended up coming back to finish at the University of Utah, and I studied film, with a focus in European art cinema, actually, surprisingly enough.
Tim Pickett: This is, wait, your parents… I mean, to just jump right in here, your parents are like, “You need to go get a great education.” You go and you study film. Did they feel fine about that?
Dashiel: They felt fine about that, as long as there was a direction to it, that I was passionate about, I don’t think they really cared what it was. And I think also it was kind of the end goal of just having a degree. My dad’s obviously from that baby boomer generation, and that’s just what was done, right? So after finishing college, I went out to Los Angeles and worked as a producer editor, which in the industry, you would call a predator, for better or worse. So I would go out and I would produce segments and come back and edit them with the producers in-house and we would go out and we would sell sizzle reels. So we would do reality shows, Intervention was one of the ones that was under our roof. We did Trisha Yearwood Southern Cooking. We’re not out there making anything super fun, like Pirates of the Caribbean, but that’s where I really kind of cut my teeth, so to speak, in media and in marketing.
Dashiel: After that, I jumped over and started working for a marketing agency out in Los Angeles called Cybrid Media, and we worked with a bunch of different big publications, and we would just move eyeballs online, right? So worked with a lot of ad dollars. So I was doing that for quite a while, got a little bit burnt out on it because at the end of the day you can be a film student and wide eyed and bushy tailed and you go out there and while you’re able to work yourself into somewhat of a creative position, maybe filming a reality show on a Malibu beauty pageant is not necessarily where you wanted to end up, right?
Dashiel: So after that, I jumped over more into marketing and worked with a company called Cybrid Media, we worked with a bunch of very large publications online. I don’t know if you guys have heard of The Chive and BroBible and stuff like that, they were some clients of ours.
Chris Holifield: Name sounds familiar, yeah.
Dashiel: And then Bleacher Report, who ended up getting acquired by Turner, I think a couple years after for like 150 million or something. And then after I moved down town, I started my own marketing agency out there, and we focused exclusively on cannabis. So we started doing marketing, calm strategy, calm planning for some big cannabis companies out there such as Eureka Vapor, Fly Vape, companies that have mostly gotten their start out of Colorado and then expanded into California, Oregon, Washington afterwards. Marketing is something I like to do, it helps kind of feed the creative side, I guess. However, I always wanted to be in the supply chain. And I always wanted to be making a commodity and a good that we could actually sell.
Dashiel: So when the laws back here in my home state and Utah changed in 2018 to allow and regulate the production of hemp and CBD, I moved back out here. And we were, if not the first, one of the first two or three hemp processors that were licensed here in the state. So we’ve been out here really from the very beginning. I’m not going out on a limb by saying our intention was always to want to get into medical as well. We built out our initial facility according to all the rules and regulations so that when that time did come, we’d be able to switch over very quickly, which is what we’ve been able to do.
Tim Pickett: And the marketing with the cannabis in California gives you a pretty good idea of what the restrictions are. And we haven’t talked too much about this aspect of cannabis, Chris, on the podcast but the marketing anything with the word cannabis, the word marijuana in it, it’s just not allowed, no Google AdWords, no… It’s hard to do anything, Facebook shuts you down, you can’t boost any posts. Do you feel like that’s a that’s been a huge benefit or kind of a benefit?
Dashiel: Well, I don’t know if I’d call that a benefit, maybe to me personally, and learning how to navigate proper marketing channels, because like you said, you can’t run ads, right, on Instagram, or Facebook or Google or anything like that. Not even for CBD unless you really know what you’re doing and working with a good agency. So what that forced us to do was to find other ways that we can market, right? So a lot of what that is, is either micro-influencer, social influencer campaigns…
Chris Holifield: Or coming on a podcast.
Dashiel: Or coming on a podcast.
Tim Pickett: Or coming on a podcast and talking about it.
Dashiel: Yeah, and just trying to… The best way to market right now and what the industry needs is really just education. So that’s what we’ve really leaned into in 2020, and going into this year 2021.
Chris Holifield: Did you ever think Utah was going to get to where it is? I mean, because you mentioned you got your processing license? How many processing licenses do they give out? Remind me. Did they give out six?
Dashiel: So the processing license is not limited by cultivation and at the pharmacy and retail level. And I think their reasoning for that is that if you cap and you create limited licenses on the cultivation side, ideally a free market, that’s going to find its own equilibrium, because there’s only so much supply.
Chris Holifield: So anybody can get a processing license? Well, not anybody, if they apply for it.
Dashiel: Yeah, you have to apply for it. And one thing to keep in mind here in Utah is that they did a really good job looking at other more mature markets and seeing how they developed, right, by allowing things like outside capital to allow the Trykes or the Columbia Cares or whatnot to come in, which was really important for a nascent industry because at the end of the day, what these MSOs did is they came in and they were the ones with the supply and they were the ones cutting the checks, right? So they really did help support the industry. I’m sure you guys are familiar with Randy over at Tryke and I don’t think there’s a single group or person in this industry right now that cannot attribute some sort of their growth to Randy and Tryke and these other large MSOs.
Tim Pickett: Sure, I mean Tryke’s putting out the most product right now. I don’t think they will for forever, but it’s definitely companies like that. Even I think companies like Curaleaf who come in and help, not only just have a retail license, but they’re good at what they do, they’re multistate, they can help shape the growth of the industry just by being here, and just by being at the table evolved in the conversation. Do you feel like Boojum, because they were early, is that something Boojum sees themselves as a leader in this space now, because you’ve been here around? I mean, your name is known all over the medical market now.
Dashiel: I think that being an early mover and a first mover is pretty crucial, right? Not only in a state like Utah, which to kind of go back and answer your question, did you see it happening here? Maybe not as soon as it did, right? It happened very, very, very quickly, and I think the CBD and hemp markets kind of helped that happen. But in terms of getting in early being a first mover, if you look at other companies in other states, when you go in and you can acquire that early market share, eventually when these adult use and these recreational markets do dovetail with medical markets, historically, it’s those early movers who are going to have… really be able to dominate the market.
Tim Pickett: Do you think that hemp, being involved in the hemp and the medical marijuana market is something that’s… is it unique to Boojum in Utah? It seems more unique, like Zion isn’t doing a lot of hemp processing, or Tryke’s not doing any hemp processing.
Dashiel: So both, I know that Tryke, they do have their hemp cultivation license as well, Zion, I believe they do as well. I think that having one foot in each market is very important. In Utah, they were actually the first state to allow that interplay between the two markets, allowing the hemp byproduct, right, or those remediation fractions, or even just hemp itself to be transferred into the medical market. Now, the way that they initially wrote that law was that cannabis processors would be able to purchase hemp as well. Now that got rolled back for a number of reasons so that now only medical cannabis cultivators can bring that hemp into the market, right?
Dashiel: But it’s a strategic play by a lot of the groups and I think it’s an important one. For us, that’s really where we learned how to do what we do, right? That’s where we developed our applications, and our extraction methods and our processes. And that’s what allowed us to really hit the ground running being the first medical cannabis processor here in the state. Also, there are other strategic benefits of having both licenses primarily dealing with taxes and IRS tax code Section 280E.
Tim Pickett: Oh, yeah, 80E, this has come up in a couple of our interviews.
Chris Holifield: Remind me what 280E is?
Dashiel: So Section 280E says that if you are trafficking a controlled one scheduled substance, you cannot write off anything outside of your cost of goods. So all of your business expenses, your SGNA, you’re going to get taxed on all that.
Chris Holifield: Any mileage? Anything? Nothing?
Dashiel: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Nothing except for the cost of goods that you produce.
Dashiel: Which is obviously the ingredients —
Tim Pickett: Or to improve those goods, right?
Dashiel: Yep.
Chris Holifield: That’s just-
Dashiel: And the labor that goes in to directly plant touching personnel.
Tim Pickett: This cannot be understated in the argument to legalize or decriminalize the cannabis market, the high THC market, because the government gets a pretty significant benefit by the way it is run now in the tax code.
Dashiel: Very true. Yeah, I think that’s one reason when people are like, “Oh, are we going to legalize now that the Dems have the tie breaking vote in the Senate and control the house?” And it’s not that simple of an issue to really unpack, first off. Second off, the federal government makes more money with cannabis being illegal due to Section 280E and civil forfeiture laws.
Chris Holifield: And they probably know that.
Dashiel: Yes, sure they do. When they do the budget, and they come up with a bill, and they say this is the benefit or the decrease in tax revenue by doing this bill, yeah, I mean, who knows? It’s a complicated process.
Chris Holifield: Didn’t dispensaries, like in California run into stuff like that with this last year, with COVID? Not getting any COVID relief and stuff like that, because of a lot of that, too? Didn’t that have something to do with it, too?
Dashiel: Yeah, well, so PPE loans, the small business loans, I would be surprised if they were even many uniquely hemp companies that even got those loans, right? Because at the end of the day, you have the FDA and you have the USDA and you have the DEA, who potentially misled some of these government agencies with an oversimplification of the process. A lot of the issues that we see that have created dysfunction in the supply chains, that is caused by a simple misunderstanding of the complexities of extraction process, right? And at any point, if I take material grown for CBD, or CBG, or whatever it is, and I bring it into the lab, and I distill that down, that’s going over point… now even over 1%, right? That’s going to be at least 2% to 3% in THC.
Tim Pickett: Oh, yeah, and this is like every time, right?
Dashiel: Every single time.
Tim Pickett: This is every single time. We talked to Kyle Egbert about this. There’s nothing really you can do until the next step when you can take it out, right?
Dashiel: Correct. So what a lot of companies will do and one thing that we had to do as a pivot after that crash in July of 2019, is to regain our margins, we had to go back to the drawing board, right, and we had to take it all the way to the finished product, right?
Tim Pickett: This is the crash you’re talking about where the hemp price… the price of like raw materials just went through the floor?
Dashiel: Yeah, completely. When we first started, the first batch of hemp that we bought got shipped in out of Oregon and we paid $55 a pound on that. It showed up, it was touted as maybe 11%, 12% CBD, we ran it through our extraction system, we got nowhere near the yield we thought we were going to get. We got to tested and it was really around 4%. So we were paying $55 a pound for 4% material. If you were to go out now and pay fair market value for hemp or CBD material, you’re looking at $1 to $3 per pound. So the fall was drastic, and it completely-
Chris Holifield: Wow. That’s just…
Dashiel: … obliterated the wholesale market, right? So if I now am buying this hemp, taking it down to distillate, we started to see the cost of distillate go from 45 to 35 to 25. Now, I believe it’s somewhere sub $500. So it’s almost become cost prohibitive to be working as a wholesaler with raw ingredients. So if you take that and you tack on top of it, the potential liabilities of having to transfer that oil now out of a state to where maybe that’s where your only buyer is, maybe you don’t have those local supply chains, because of rules and regulations like we see in Utah that have really throttled distribution.
Tim Pickett: These are the rules of selling hemp in state?
Dashiel: Yes, selling hemp in state. Primarily, one, we can’t market, we can’t advertise it, right? We can’t say-
Tim Pickett: Is this is the medical market or do you just, because Boojum’s in the medical market, now you can’t advertise at all, period?
Dashiel: We don’t like to advertise, obvious… I mean, even sponsored content we wouldn’t do. Things like this we love to do because it’s just a collaboration.
Tim Pickett: This is just a… Yeah-
Dashiel: It’s a conversation.
Tim Pickett: … it’s conversation, right? This we do because people are interested in what’s going on? And there’s no other route to get the information, right?
Dashiel: Exactly.
Tim Pickett: So I think it’s super important to have these conversations. And when you talk about the hemp, like distributing hemp and distilling it, and then the interplay between the medical market and the hemp market, it always comes up in these conversations that there’s this… it’s just a weird place to be. Anything over 3%, but under, I would say 15%, right? Because the market seems to be like this 15% flower, is this gray area it seems like. And there’s a huge benefit if we switch and pivot and talk about medicine, there’s a massive benefit between 3.3% THC and 15%, or 0.3% and 3%, right?
Dashiel: Yeah, no, absolutely. That’s one reason why we wanted to jump into medical is because we wanted to focus on making medicine. Much like a million other people that you’ll talk to in this industry, local, or nationally, our belief in cannabis is all stemmed from anecdotal experience, or we have a loved one or a relative or somebody that cannabis was the only thing providing, say, end of life care, or something like that. So to be able to fully tap into the potential of this plant on the cannabinoid production side, you really want to be able to play with all of those compounds. Absolutely.
Tim Pickett: If we talk about Boojum and what products they’re making now, do you feel like you got into medical and you have favorite products, does Boojum have favorite products?
Dashiel: Sure. So even on the CBD side, we always took a pretty firm strategic position, and that was really to focus on value add type products. And what I mean by that is infused products. We do not sell flower, we do not co-pack flower or put it on the market. We also have not even branched into any sort of smokeable or inhalation type of device just yet, primarily because we don’t think that smoking flower is really the best medicine, you’re maybe getting 5% to 7% of what’s actually in there versus when we have something like an oral spray or tincture, and we’re dosing it based off of the active molecule, meaning that if we’re putting in 1,000 milligrams of, let’s say THC, we’re not just going to weigh that out and put it in there. You’re going to say, “Okay, there’s THC oil tested at 80%, so I need to account for that, when I’m formulating this. And I know that every single spray or every gummy or every 2.25 ml of a tincture is exactly the dose that I’m looking for.”
Dashiel: So by focusing not only on one specific area in the supply chain, which is the processing, and not trying to overextend into cultivation and retail, and then also focusing on acquiring market share in the infused, edible category just gave us a very clear direction and has really allowed us to focus on what we’re good at. And it’s kind of a short-term play, but it’s really more of a long-term play when you look at the trajectory of these infused products and how much market share they’re eating into from flower, even the numbers that the Utah Department of Health released recently, we’re seeing flower lose market share month over month, I think right now it sits around 35%.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I would say that the… I would agree with that, and I would agree that, like in Utah’s market specifically, you have a lot of the early adopters, right? A lot of the early patients are going to be those who use flower, they’re going to be what we call legacy users, those people who are experienced with cannabis. In the beginning, we were seeing maybe 8 out of 10, 9 out of 10 patients that they were using cannabis and only 1 in 10 were not using, or cannabis was new. Now, I mean, it’s 35%, 40% of our patients are new to cannabis altogether. And that’s a huge number for only this far into the program. But those patients are not using flower, they want concentrates. Not concentrates in the smokeable concentrates realm. They want tinctures, and edibles, oral sprays, things that are easily dosed that are more conspicuous, because I mean, this is a Mormon culture, right?
Tim Pickett: So I mean, I think Boojum really fits in there. We talk a lot about Boojum with our patients, because of the dosing. Specifically you came out with a product cheek spray, that people really liked, because it’s a metered dose and metered dose… Frankly, metered dose inhalers are needed, if anybody who wants to produce one. I mean, I think it’s an important piece. But their metered dose, they’re a good effect, and they were low dose. There’s two kind of things I want to talk about, talk about the team at Boojum. How to products like that… Who’s involved in development of that?
Dashiel: So with a lot of the initial product development, a lot of that was… So my role in it, I’ll start with, is market data, coming from marketing and advertising, we clean data and we look at it, we look at reports from MJ business, we look at reports from New Frontier data, we compile as much data as we possibly can, and we clean it, and we try to make actionable strategies off of it. And we also want to know who we’re selling to, and we want to serve a very specific patient even.
Dashiel: The reason for the oral spray, and that was a conversation between Brittany and myself and Olivia Kulander, our chief science officer was to really bring down the onset time of infused edible product. And because you’re spraying and the part… it’s kind of breaking up the particle size and going under your tongue, as opposed to going through your first pass metabolism and digestion and everything, that’s why the onset time is, for a lot of people, and this varies a lot between individuals, under 20 minutes even, right? So now we have an alternative to inhalation devices, or flower for patients with crippling anxiety, or PTSD, or something like that.
Tim Pickett: Where they can have a trigger event, they can use the product, and they can get effect without inhaling.
Dashiel: Yeah, exactly.
Tim Pickett: Right? With that product.
Dashiel: Yeah. So I would say typically, when we’re going and we’re looking at, “Okay, what products do we want to do?” One, the market data has to be there, right? And if you look at market data, and you look at these other states with these more mature markets, if you’re trying to be profitable in this industry, I mean, it’s not… I mean, it is a green rush in some sense, but it’s not that easy to come in, and be profitable and be successful in cannabis. And we saw that play out in Canada, we’ve seen a play out here, we’ve seen the rise and fall of groups like Canopy Growth and MedMen.
Dashiel: Yeah, so if you look at the data, if you only have two to three SKUs, maybe only 10% of those companies are going to be profitable. If you start releasing more products and casting a wider net, if you have 7 to 10 SKUs, now, 80% of those companies are profitable, right? And so there’s a lot of really simple data like this that you can look at to make better business decisions. But that’s not where the buck stops, that’s only one part of it. The other part of it is the research that we do into, “Okay, well, what is the best delivery method? What are the best cannabinoids and ratios?” And for us, the one thing that we’ve been pushing very hard is what is the best terpene profile to add to supplement to this medicine?
Dashiel: So typically, Brittany and I will go back and forth about a product, Olivia will go and she’ll do a bunch of research, we’ll write internal lit reviews on different scientific studies, which we will, if we ever published those online, obviously, they’re all cited, to find, “Okay, well, what does the research say? What kind of a medicine do we want to put out there?” And then so we’ll join the market data and we’ll join the research, and then we’ll put a product out there. And I think over the last, what is it, eight months or so of this program, everybody’s really just kind of been A, B-ing a bunch of stuff, right? Like, “Okay, well, what works? What do we want to put out there?” I think that we’ve launched maybe six or seven, maybe even eight different tincture varieties with different terpenes on them to see, “Okay, well, do patients, are they educated on terpenes? Do they know what they want?” And we’ve seen incredibly positive market signals on terpenes.
Dashiel: Terpenes is something that is going to be huge, because at the end of the day, if somebody is trying to classify a plant as an indica or sativa, it’s not the cannabinoid profile that determines that, it’s the terpene profile.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, it’s the steering wheel of the product, really. The citrusy terpenes being the sativas, the more earthy terpene smells, if you were to just paint with a broad brush, it seems like that’s the more indica style. And then that translates really into what types of patients will experience what effects. Of course, everybody’s a little bit different. So when you’re building these tinctures, and you have a lot of different… What do you recommend the patients do when there’s so much variety?
Dashiel: Yeah, and I mean, that’s why it’s really important to have educated pharmacies, bud tenders, and then even groups like yourself that can kind of give them this advice. But what it really is going to come down to is… And I just want to say one thing, we’ve been shocked at how many people do know what their favorite terpene is, it’s surprising. But aside from that, for somebody to be able to learn, “Okay, well, I like limonene versus a myrcene or something.” It’s education, education, education, and then eventually they’ll try it, right? And so the three terpenes that we’ve seen that have been the most successful and we’ve gotten the most feedback on are your limonene, like you were mentioning, it’s kind of your citrusy morning terpene. And then your beta caryophyllene has been hugely popular, and then myrcene.
Dashiel: Those are the ones that we’re really seeing, which is interesting, because if you were to kind of draw out a little schematic in terms of, “Okay, maybe this is an indica, or this is a sativa.” Or another way to think about it, “Here’s your morning, here’s your all day hybrid,” right, in the middle, “And then here is your evening gummy,” which is going to be more like your indica or something, because it has myrcene in it.
Tim Pickett: So let’s back up here a little bit. Because I think when people listen to this episode, there’s going to be a lot of people who understand the terpenes, the cannabinoids, but I think we could spend just a minute, and correct me if I’m wrong here, so when we talk about cannabinoids, those are the compounds within the plant that are expressed as the plant grows, they’re part of the plant. Typically, those can be manipulated through the processing and building of a product like a tincture, you can add or subtract cannabinoids, depending on the processing. But that’s more difficult-
Dashiel: Yeah, so that’s not necessarily… you don’t really subtract or add different cannabinoids, right?
Tim Pickett: Cannabinoids. Right? Okay, so yes, and I agree with that there. However, then you go into the terpenes, and cannabinoids, we know some about, but that’s what we’re learning more and more and more about, CBG, CBN, the different cannabinoids and what they do. We know a lot more about terpenes, and terpenes give the odor of the plant, and, like you were saying, they give the sativa effect versus the indica effect. Beta caryophyllene is known for kind of an anti-inflammatory as well, they can have medicinal properties. Beta caryophyllene is very high in some of these Hazes and Kushes that are good for pain. So pain patients tend to lean to strains like that even. So when you build a product like Boojum builds, then you can create a recipe that takes the plant material in the concentration, and then adds terpenes to it, to, like I was saying, a steering wheel effect, you have to adjust the results for the patient.
Dashiel: Yep, exactly.
Tim Pickett: In a way.
Dashiel: Exactly. So yeah, and there’s a couple different ways you can do this throughout the extraction process, right? So the way that we extract at our facility, we do use ethanol, we use a cryoethanol and we run it incredibly, incredibly chilled. We’ve done a lot of A/B testing, surprisingly enough, do you know a difference in 10 degrees temperature from maybe negative 70 to negative 60, or even negative 55, is going to affect the yield of various cannabinoids, right? So they all have a proclivity to come out at kind of a different temperature, which is very interesting. So we pull it out, and then we do what you would call a full spectrum oil or as other industries would call a FECO oil, a full extract cannabis oil.
Dashiel: And what that means is that you’re only doing an ethanol extraction, you may filter it with membranes, or diatomaceous earth or something along those lines, and then you’re going to pull the solvent out of it. However, all of those natural terpenes that did manage to survive and last through the curing process, are still retained in that full spectrum extract. So our oil is an FSO full spectrum oil, meaning we do not further distill it. Now if you wanted to go further and make a product such as something that would be used for vaping, you’re going to want to distill that further, right? There’s other plant compounds that are in there that are going to make that experience much less enjoyable. That’s why a FECO oil or an FSO oil or an RSO oil is typically ingested orally, with food.
Dashiel: So if you go down to the distillation, then you’re stripping those terpenes out. So now you just have a distillate. And the reason that you would do that is to increase the potency of those cannabinoids. So if you want to take that, and then now put it into a cart, or any other kind of product that you would really taste, you’re going to have to re add those terpenes back in now, you’re not going to have those original terpenes anymore.
Tim Pickett: We’re going to become experts, Chris.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, no. Well, you mentioned that limonene, my wife uses that. She uses the Boojum limonene.
Tim Pickett: Oh, really?
Chris Holifield: She loves it. She’s gotten into… I don’t know a whole lot about it, helps her with her ADD, I guess. Keep her focused.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I mean, it’s definitely a daytime use.
Chris Holifield: So it’s great.
Dashiel: Yeah. And so one reason why I think our products have really resonated with the patients here in Utah, is that we don’t go through that distillation process. So we keep as much of the original compounds intact as possible, which makes it a little bit more difficult when it comes to the patient or user experience and the flavor profiles, right? Because CBD oil or THC oil does not taste good.
Tim Pickett: No, it tastes terrible.
Dashiel: And so that’s where our product development chief and confectionery guy Julian Hensarling comes in. He comes in and we look at-
Tim Pickett: Oh, he’s going to get featured, right?
Dashiel: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Coming up in Salt Baked City, right?
Chris Holifield: Yep.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, should to Cole there.
Dashiel: Yeah, he will be. But he’s incredibly talented, and he’s able to take that original oil and put it into a tincture and then supplement it with some other terpenes that do not come from that plant originally, to be clear, different terpenes to actually make that a product that you can wash down, right?
Tim Pickett: Or that tastes decent or yeah.
Dashiel: So he works with the original terpenes that are in that full spectrum oil, supplements them with some others and then in the case of a gummy, or something like that, with other flavors to make the most enjoyable product when it comes to flavor. And then also, that’s what really makes our products so effective is that we are using that full spectrum because you can go in and you can deconstruct these oils, you can run it through distillation, you can take the terps out, you can do whatever, and then you can go back and be like, “Okay, well now I’m going to put them back all together.” But that is not a full spectrum product, right? They just don’t go back together the same way that they are grown in nature, in that synergistic effect.
Tim Pickett: And he’s a pretty cool guy. What’s his title? Confection stylist?
Dashiel: He likes to call himself… Yeah, he’s a confectionery director, right?
Chris Holifield: What a title.
Tim Pickett: I want that title. I make food look and taste good. Yeah, whatever you bring me, I’m going to make it look better, I’m going to give it a haircut, add some of this, add some of that.
Chris Holifield: Well, look at fast food commercials, they always make it looks so good.
Dashiel: It looks so good.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, you need a guy like that. Especially in cannabis, because unless you like raw grass sprayed with skunk, that’s been dug up out of the dirt.
Chris Holifield: See, I think cannabis is just beautiful.
Tim Pickett: Well see like, I mean-
Dashiel: It is.
Tim Pickett: … I think we get used to it, right? I’m sure that when you go to your processing plant, and then you spend all day there and you come home, I mean, your clothes smell like-
Chris Holifield: Stinky.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, you get stinky. And I’ve gotten to where I don’t mind it. I’m used to it.
Chris Holifield: I don’t really smell it anymore, yeah.
Tim Pickett: Right.
Dashiel: I will say that it was a nice mix up and change having Julian come in because typically, the lab just smells like cannabis, right? Or sometimes… And now you walk in there, and everybody that we have given a tour to leaves and says, “Wow, that is like Willy Wonka’s Chocolate Factory.” Now we have these all these other fantastic smells in the mix.
Tim Pickett: Okay, now I’m down. This is good. I got to come up there.
Chris Holifield: Do you give tours, can we come get a tour?
Dashiel: Yeah, absolutely, we’d be happy.
Chris Holifield: I’m sure it’s hard for the public to get to your-
Dashiel: It has been hard, but everybody is creating these post… I wouldn’t say post COVID, but after a COVID kind of hit, everybody has created their protocols, and what their tolerance levels are for stuff like that.
Tim Pickett: How does your family now… Because you’re from Utah, and you came back here, you worked a little bit in the cannabis industry or a lot in LA. And now you’re coming back here, you’re neck deep in this industry, what does your family think? How has that culture shift been, personally?
Dashiel: Sure. So I will say that we ended up in Utah in the back of a Volkswagen van in 1991, down in a small Valley outside of Moab called Castle Valley.
Chris Holifield: What year of Volkswagen?
Dashiel: Oh, I think it was a ’71.
Chris Holifield: Yes.
Tim Pickett: Nice.
Dashiel: It was nice. My dad’s had multiple of those. So my parents were originally from California, my mom from Manhattan Beach area, my dad from San Francisco, Oakland up north. And they were down in Mexico. My dad’s a travel writer, he writes for National Geographic and Conde Nast and stuff like that. He’s actually doing insurance stuff now. But they came back after 10 years in Mexico, and the prices on property in California had just skyrocketed, right? And they were just a couple bohemian hippies. And they were like, “All right, what do we do? Let’s hop in the van and drive to the first place that scratches our soul or whatever.” And it ended up being Castle Valley, Utah.
Dashiel: So we are, I will say, more liberal probably than most families here in Utah. More recently seeing me jump into the industry, unfortunately, that’s not something my mother was able to see, she did pass away from cancer in 2017, which was just another motivator for me because towards the end of her life, instead of using benzos, or other opioids to help manage pain, or Ativan and Xanax and stuff like that, which, in those final few months of your life, if you’re battling something like cancer, they take you out of reality, and you’re not there for those final moments. So my mom leaned on cannabis pretty heavily. And that really, really motivated me to try and get it into more patients hands out here.
Dashiel: So yeah, we started doing the CBD stuff, like a year after that, the following year we were ready to get into medical, finally jumped in. And so I would say my family, they love it, even my extended family. I have a bunch of family out here in Utah, aunts and uncles and cousins and whatnot, and they’ve always been supporters, I believe, and I’m pretty sure of medical cannabis, and-
Chris Holifield: Well, that’s good. I mean, it sounds like they’re a pretty —
Tim Pickett: It’s really good.
Chris Holifield: … supportive family.
Tim Pickett: And I think that, although you hate to lose family members, and I’m sorry that your mom isn’t here to see the success of Boojum, and what you’ve been doing in the industry. On the other hand, it’s nice to start to hear the stories of people who were able to utilize cannabis, instead of just the barrage of stories that we hear constantly of patients who weren’t able to use it, or aren’t educated that it’s out there and another tool, so it’s nice to start hearing those.
Dashiel: Yeah, I think accessibility is huge, it’s important. The education and the accessibility for patients to be able to get it because, like you said, there’s some people in Utah that don’t even know, at this point that we have a medical program.
Tim Pickett: There’s so many patients, we see patients every single day who come in, and they’re like, “I didn’t even know, my friend just told me yesterday, or my friend told me last week-”
Chris Holifield: It was not popular.
Tim Pickett: “… and I’ve had this pain. It’s not there.” Or they’ll see a billboard and they’ll be like, “It’s legal?”
Dashiel: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. Well, yeah, there’s plenty of pharmacies around and there’s… Seems to be growing.
Chris Holifield: It goes back to the advertising thing, though. You know what I mean? It’s because you can’t advertise about it, so where —
Tim Pickett: That’s right, how do you get the word out?
Chris Holifield: How do you tell people about it?
Tim Pickett: Yeah. But I do think now it seems to be a growing grassroots. You can see it this growing grassroots exposure, this word of mouth thing that we’re doing here, that is just… People want to talk about it, right?
Dashiel: Yeah, I got to commend your guys’ work on that part of things on that behalf because people just need to hear conversations, people need to hear regular people talking about the potential of this plant, which cannabinoid production is just one aspect of it, right? I mean, there’s untapped potential in this plant. I mean, you look at the grain and fiber options, right? I mean, you look Levis switching over and Wranglers and Legos going to all-hemp plastic and Porsche are making hemp cars. And that’s probably going to be the next wave that we’re going to see. I would say 2021 is probably going to be the year of outsize supply of fiber this time, as opposed to cannabinoid production. I mean, the plant intersects with more industries than any other plant on this planet.
Chris Holifield: It’s amazing.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I mean, even the center of the Global Hemp Association for hemp associations is right here in Utah.
Chris Holifield: Right here in Utah.
Dashiel: Yeah, that’s right.
Chris Holifield: Where do you see this going? I mean, would you eventually like to grow? Would you eventually like to go bigger in the industry? Or where do you see this going in the next five years for Boojum?
Dashiel: Yeah. Well, for Boojum, we really want to push the research, right? And also out of a need for survival, people need to diversify, right? So you need to look at every single potential, either distribution channel or revenue path, which… And also like, “Okay, well, how are the rules and regulations going to end up?” Right? Now that we have dam in the… or a dam in the executive branch and the administration, obviously, and then now controlling the House and the Senate as well. So I think groups have to prepare for these things, and that means exploring these pharmaceutical swim lanes, exploring what do we do if adult-use and recreational flips? Where do we place our bets? If you look at medical markets, they have been just as, if not more, resilient to the recession and COVID-19 to even adult-use and rec markets, especially ones that lean heavily on tourism.
Dashiel: So where we would like to grow is we would like to either be working with other groups, with cultivators to create the most consistent products possible. And what I mean by that is products that are consistent enough to be used for research, for these pharmaceutical companies. And that, in addition to it being federally illegal, one of the reasons why research has been so sparse, is that it’s very hard to grow this plant exactly the same every single time, which means that now if you’re going to go and you’re trying to do clinical trials, but you have one batch of oil that has say 5% CBC, and it’s same flower, and somebody else extracts it, and now you have 10% CBC. So all of these fluctuations in these differences that come primarily from the genetic of the plant, but then also how they were grown, and then how they were processed, it can even come down to how they were stored, right?
Dashiel: If you store plant material improperly, or if it’s too hot, or something like that, it’s going to isomerize, some of it’s going to turn into a CBN or something like that, right? Or it’s going to go hot in the field, as I’m sure you guys know-
Tim Pickett: Oh, yeah.
Dashiel: … these hemp issues that people have had. So we need to fit standard models, right? And this is the same, even on the grain and fiber side. This is why Levis and Wrangler are going into this, that end-use market, it exists. But the production of the plant, whether for medicine, or for fiber needs to fit existing standardized models, right? You need consistency, it needs an existing infrastructure, primarily for production and distribution.
Tim Pickett: Sure, I mean, the markets are too big to be inconsistent. Imagine Levis going in with just a run of what we got out of the garden over here. And then we grew some in the US south, and that was a mess. Yeah, that consistency, I think makes it harder to transition over too. But to your point, I can really see a huge need, it’s one of the things in medicine that I can’t get my peers to accept cannabis as a medicine because it’s so inconsistent. And when you talk about the products being consistent, I can prescribe amoxicillin and I know the patient is getting the same thing every single time. That’s what Western medicine is all about. You have a symptom, you have an allopathic approach, and you prescribe a medication. That’s how we study medicine. But no one is focused on building those medications to study. Hopefully Boojum can get into that and do some research on products that are very consistent. That’s very needed.
Dashiel: Yeah. And we are actively working towards that and we are realizing more and more, while we will continue to focus on our category in the supply chain, we’re realizing more and more that really comes down to the genetic, it comes down to the plant because you don’t want to be going in and paying these outsize sums to be processing, distilling, running through chromatography, isolating, and then recombining to create a medicine that’s less effective as it is when it just comes off the plant, right? So looking for those kinds of partners that can tackle these issues with us is going to be a big priority for us over the next couple of years.
Tim Pickett: Exciting.
Chris Holifield: I’ve learned a lot.
Tim Pickett: I have too.
Chris Holifield: And now I want to walk across the street to Beehive and get some more of your products.
Tim Pickett: I know, we’re recording right now. I’m looking right across the street out there.
Chris Holifield: What’s your most popular item?
Dashiel: So the most popular item is the oral spray. Yeah, the oral spray is by far our number one seller right now, I think because it’s novel, we don’t have a direct competitor, obviously, there in a local market. And the onset time is quick. And like you were mentioning, it’s a low dose, and it allows patients to slowly titrate it up and find their specific dose.
Tim Pickett: Yep. Exciting. It’s a product. It’s a cool idea. And that just one more exciting thing about cannabis, you can design, whatever it is, whatever you imagine. It’s like Disneyland.
Chris Holifield: I remember the first time I ever went into a dispensary in California like 10 years ago, and I remember seeing some of the stuff and I’m like, “Wow, it’s more than just-”
Tim Pickett: I know, it’s more than just a pot of weed.
Chris Holifield: “… a flower that you can smoke.” It’s like creams and topicals and lotions and this and that.
Dashiel: And it’s incredible how well it all works too, right? Like the topicals, they work incredibly well. And yeah, what’s great about going to markets like Colorado or something, it is nice to see some of these products like the chocolates, right? And also they don’t have a lot of the same product limitations that we have here. Even in terms of how we explain what this product is to the patients and what ingredients we can use, right? We can’t go out and make a huckleberry, pomegranate gummy, and say that on the gummy right now, even though that would not appeal —
Chris Holifield: Why can’t you say that?
Dashiel: Because you can only use a list of the state’s approved artificial flavors, which is maybe there’s eight of them.
Chris Holifield: See, and I didn’t even realize that. I learned something new.
Tim Pickett: Right. And there’s a besides… They’re gelatinous cubes that are edible. Do you feel like that’s over restrictive? Or do you feel like it was placed in the right spot, and we can modify that legislation as we go?
Dashiel: I think the legislation can be modified to more accurately reflect the initial intention of that piece of legislature. For instance, what they are concerned about is that we don’t put something on the front of that bottle that’s attractive to kids, right?
Tim Pickett: Right. I mean, that’s the bottom line.
Dashiel: That’s the bottom line.
Tim Pickett: We don’t want kids taking all the cannabis, all the THC.
Chris Holifield: I wouldn’t want my kids taking all my cannabis anyway.
Tim Pickett: I mean, of course, right? And there are in states with medical and rec programs, there is an increase in ER visits for overdose for children.
Chris Holifield: There really is?
Tim Pickett: That’s just a fact. Okay, more access equals more overdose and more ER visits. There are ways to compensate for that. But that’s just a fact.
Dashiel: Yeah, I think that’s a fact. But I think it’s also important to stack it up to other medications like opioids, right? If you look at the therapeutic index of cannabis versus an opioid made from a opioid plant, Poppy plant, the chance of overdose with that opioid is 70 to 1, meaning you would need to take X amount more to overdose on it. With cannabis that is 40,000 to 1. So in terms of the safety of the product, yes, we don’t need to be putting product out there that is attractive to kids or easily accessible for kids or is not in childproof packaging. But let’s say that that does… whatever, your dog gets ahold of a bottle of gummies versus a bottle of OxyContins and breaks it open and your kid accidentally puts one of those in their mouth, I could tell you which one I would want.
Tim Pickett: Exactly. Very, very good point, because you have-
Chris Holifield: I have an idea.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I mean, although the cases of cannabis overdose go up when you have more access, you’ve got to look at the opioid overdose. The opioid epidemics all go down in every state that has access to legal cannabis. The opioid use rates go way down.
Dashiel: And to be clear, when you say cannabis overdose-
Tim Pickett: I’m talking about THC overdose.
Dashiel: Just in terms of them calling a hospital?
Chris Holifield: Yeah, what would be considered a THC overdose?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, so a THC overdose would be something that, in my opinion, right, it would be something that either A, leads to a call to poison control, for THC ingestion that was not anticipated.
Dashiel: But not a fatality.
Tim Pickett: Never a fatality, right.
Dashiel: Okay, gotcha.
Chris Holifield: Do people really call that for THC?
Tim Pickett: Oh, absolutely. Yes, all the time.
Chris Holifield: I was going to say, I just sit it out.
Dashiel: Absolutely.
Tim Pickett: Well, and that’s education. And when they come to the ER, and I still work some shifts in the ER and people will come in, and, of course, when I’m working with the physicians there, they’re always like, “Oh, yeah, somebody’s overdosed on THC, Tim, you’re it. This is your field, go take care of them.” And in every case it’s just rest, relaxation, a little bit of IV fluids, you know…
Chris Holifield: Kind of talk them down, just “hello!”
Tim Pickett: … just bring in a friend, and it’s going to be okay. And it doesn’t last forever. And is it dangerous? I guess, depending on what your view of danger is, right? But would I rather have them… I’d so much rather take care of them for that, than watch them die of an opioid overdose.
Dashiel: We have so many parents that reach out to us who are trying to put their kids through the compassionate use board, right, for things like MS or debilitating seizures. And they say, look at this point a lot of these parents are… they’re saying, “This is palliative care. This is end of life treatment at this point. And I’m not going to give my kids opioids.” To your point about opioid overdoses, I’m sure you guys saw the study that came out. I think it was fairly recent, maybe two weeks ago, but states that have enacted some sort of cannabis legalization, whether medical or adult use have seen a 20% reduction in opioid overdoses.
Chris Holifield: I can see that.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, it’s a huge number. I mean, it just shows that this does work, cannabis does work. If any listeners or if you have patients that need help with the compassionate use board, we get a significant amount of referrals for that type of patient, and we work with the patient’s primary care provider or their neurologist or whoever, because a lot of those specialties don’t have time to learn a lot about cannabis. And the compassionate use board has become… I don’t know, it’s modifying. We talked Katie Barber about it a little bit in a podcast episode before.
Dashiel: Yeah. Well, that’s what you guys are here for, and that’s phenomenal, because people do need to know how to navigate these waters and the bureaucracy and the red tape and everything. It’s hard for us because as an operator, and as a producer, and as an establishment here that makes cannabis products, we can’t go out and be advising these parents about what to take or… We’ll put them in contact with the right people and say, “Okay, this is the proper way to do things.” But it’s hard because a lot of people do reach out to us for that kind of advice, and it’s not something we can give.
Chris Holifield: It’s probably hard because you sometimes want to give advice, but you have to be careful about what advice you give-
Tim Pickett: Well, yeah, they know…
Chris Holifield: … because you’re not a doctor.
Dashiel: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: We have a couple of really young patients that don’t use THC, but use fairly high dose CBD. And we contact the manufacturer directly of the product, because sometimes we need to tweak the products a little bit. And these producers in Utah, I’m sure Boojum is the same, it’s important to get all of these kids in these special cases what they need. So it seems like everybody’s willing to go the extra mile for that type of patient.
Dashiel: Yeah, absolutely.
Chris Holifield: Anything else you want to ask him, Tim, before we wrap-
Tim Pickett: No.
Chris Holifield: I mean, anything else you want to talk about? While the mics are hot here? Let’s open it up man.
Dashiel: Yeah, sure. I guess maybe I could go back to your initial point, or a question about, “Okay, well, where does Boojum go? Where do we want to grow?” I think that what we really want to help create is driving infrastructure development here in the state. And that means not only working on local infrastructure and exploring other diverse applications for this plant, but also working with legislators to help create a profitable business model in the state, right? And a lot of that’s going to happen on the hemp and CBD side. So while medical cannabis is fantastic, and the market is new, but it’s robust, and it’s growing, and legislators are working with everybody in the industry to make sure that it is a success. At the end of the day, if you look at hemp and CBD, either for cannabinoid production or grain and fiber, those are huge markets, huge, untapped markets at this point. I mean, we’re serving, I think you said 22,000 patients-
Tim Pickett: Yeah, something like 22,000 legal users in Utah now.
Dashiel: Yeah, but as soon as we can kind of clean up the legislation locally on the hemp and CBD side and create viable distribution models per rules and regulations, that’s going to explode and it’s going to happen and it’s going to happen soon and it’s going to help out a lot of these local farmers, for sure. My job as the CEO of the company is really to focus on macro level strategy and direction of growth. So we are looking for a lot of these kind of strategic hemp and CBD partners currently, but it’s going to be… it’s different and people who are interested in getting into the market, you got to start small, you got to make a consistent product, and you got to have something that’s going to help you kind of rise above and you also have to think of CBD a little bit differently.
Dashiel: CBD is not going to be the main… it might may be the main active ingredient, right? But what we need to see is we need to see it start going to beverages, we need to see rules and regulations that are going to allow for it to use as a food additive, such as New York and Colorado have recently done. So I mean, there’s a multitude of legislative changes, the least of which is certainly not any sort of social equity and reparation laws that I think certainly need to be written into legislature here.
Dashiel: And then on the medical side, I think there’s some clear, glaring issues, right, that that affect social equity and access to cannabis here in the state. For instance, the flower laws, right? Flower is the cheapest thing when you walk into the to the dispensary for the most part. It’s what a lot of people are very familiar with. But at the end of the day, we have this flame law that says you can’t even light it up. So you got to go home and you have to purchase at least $100 $150 maybe even $200 device-
Tim Pickett: Yep. Because if you buy the $20 one, you’re just going to buy it every month.
Chris Holifield: A halfway decent one is going to be $200, $300, $400.
Tim Pickett: Exactly. It’s 200 bucks to buy a decent for sure.
Dashiel: Yeah, so who is going to end up potentially getting in trouble for using this medicine? It’s going to be lower income individuals.
Chris Holifield: I didn’t even think about that, wow.
Dashiel: I mean, really what it is, it’s a dead man’s trigger for conservative opposition in the state to cannabis. So it’s something that needs…
Chris Holifield: So you think Utah should allow smokeable flower?
Dashiel: I mean, they do and they don’t right now, right? They’re selling it in the pharmacy, but they’re saying you can’t smoke it. So I think there needs to be some clarity on those sorts of issues, 100%.
Chris Holifield: Makes sense to me. I think they should allow it.
Tim Pickett: We always bring this up. We always ask…
Chris Holifield: I know, we do.
Tim Pickett: … about this, because I’m the provider, and I’m like, “Don’t smoke.”
Chris Holifield: Well, the big picture, here’s the thing you’re the provider-
Dashiel: It’s not the best medicine, but through time-
Tim Pickett: I know it’s not, and I get it.
Dashiel: … you shouldn’t get in trouble for it now.
Chris Holifield: Exactly. There we go.
Tim Pickett: No, you’re right, you shouldn’t get in trouble.
Chris Holifield: Maybe don’t push it, but you shouldn’t… It’s like, “Hey, if you’re a patient, if you have a card…” Maybe educate them, maybe say, “Hey, you know what, that’s not the best way to consume it.” But don’t slap them on the wrist with a fine.
Dashiel: And the market is moving there naturally too, I mean, we’ve seen it across the board in other markets, not only during COVID, but pre COVID as well, as that flower market share is getting eaten into year after year.
Chris Holifield: How can people get a hold of you… Or how can they see your products? I guess Instagram, right?
Dashiel: Yeah. So according to the marketing and advertising laws right now, there’s too much of a gray area, we can’t go out, we can’t advertise, right? But what we are allowed to do is maintain a digital platform where we can show our products or talk about the products. I would say, depending maybe on the pharmacy and who you talk to, you the best place to learn about the products is in the pharmacies, because they’re going to be able to really sit down, they’re going to be able to tell you a lot of things that we probably can’t print and put on flyers and get out there.
Tim Pickett: No, for sure, but like we were saying, I mean, your educational posters are up in some of these pharmacies, and they teach people. So I think that that’s important. It’s a great place to learn about your products.
Dashiel: Yeah. And that’s the one thing that we are allowed to do is create educational materials, right? So we can’t make a flyer and make it all sexy and just shove a product down your throat, but what we can do is make educational materials and that is what the industry needs. And despite saying, “Okay, well, these are the flaws in the local legislation.” For the most part, I would have to say the Department of Ag and Food as well as the Department of Health has done a phenomenal job with trying to structure this program in the best way possible, both economically and on the healthcare side for the patients.
Chris Holifield: And are your products in all the pharmacies, dispensaries here in Utah? That you know of at least.
Dashiel: Yeah, we are in all of the pharmacies, yep. I wish we had more access to more flower and more supply and whatnot. But that’s kind of a natural growing pain that I think everybody’s dealing with. So we try to keep them stocked and in every pharmacy as much as possible.
Chris Holifield: And I’m sure as 2021 goes into 2022 I mean, it’s just going to get better and better, I would imagine, with supply.
Dashiel: Well, yeah, I mean, I think 2020… The real supply issues kind of died with 2020.
Chris Holifield: Because of COVID.
Dashiel: Well, also it just took them that long to get up and running. Even when Tryke and Randy came in, they were the only cultivator and are still one of only two, maybe three cultivators that are selling to third party processors. And they didn’t even maximize the full cap of their license, because a lot of people just did not expect the patient population to kind of explode the way that it did.
Chris Holifield:22,000.
Dashiel: Yeah, so all these other groups are now getting it together, building out the remaining allotted square footage of their license, and dialing in what genetics they want to use. And so I know that there’s multiple groups now that are going to be doing at least 500 pounds a month. So hopefully, what that translates into is lower costs for patients, right? Because one thing that that everybody knows is an issue here and the state is the price of products. If you go on Reddit, if you go on Instagram, you go talk to anybody-
Chris Holifield: Oh, yeah, everywhere, the price of products is outrageous.
Dashiel: … it’s about the price of the product. And what people need to realize is that, that all starts with the cost of the flower, right? If we’re here and we’re paying, just to make the math easy, let’s say $700 a pound, right? If you look at other mature markets, they’re more down around $300 to kind of $400 a pound or something like that. Now, because that cost has not come down, and there are some factors that are creating that, one of those are these people co-packing flower, right? If everybody’s going in, and everybody’s buying everything that’s in there, nobody needs to come down in price, at least from their perspective. And for us, when we don’t control the grow or the cultivation, we don’t control the cost of a flower. So if we want to find margins to make this profitable, while also dealing with things like Section 280E, that’s why the price kind of… it stays high. However, this year we’ve developed some strategic partnerships, and I believe other groups are also developing these strategic partnerships that are going to allow us to get medicine to patients at a lower cost.
Chris Holifield: Very good.
Tim Pickett: Well, that’s good.
Chris Holifield: Can’t wait.
Tim Pickett: No one can wait.
Chris Holifield: Yes.
Tim Pickett: Everybody is waiting for things to equalize, all the pharmacies to open. I mean, it’s exciting because if you need the products, you can probably get them, but the barriers will come down.
Dashiel: And it’s also important to bring people over from that illicit illegal market, right?
Tim Pickett: Oh, for sure.
Dashiel: For public safety, if you have patients that are going in, and they’re getting asked to pay three times maybe what they pay in the black market, and the product is not even on the shelf, they’re just going to keep buying it from their buddy, right? So that’s a cause for concern.
Chris Holifield: Absolutely.
Tim Pickett: Absolutely. Well, this has been a good conversation.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, absolutely.
Tim Pickett: I’m glad we could have you on.
Chris Holifield: Let’s wrap this episode up —
Tim Pickett: Absolutely.
Chris Holifield: … bring him back through and catch up, and —
Tim Pickett: Yeah, we’re excited to see Boojum grow and what products you have coming out and all the research.
Dashiel: Awesome.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, this will be fun.
Dashiel: Well, yeah, we’d love to maybe have you guys up, and you guys can check out the facility.
Tim Pickett: Oh, yeah, we’ll come. We’ll bring the mics.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, I’m down.
Dashiel: Yeah, bring the mics and we’ll do one up there.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, I’d love to. Maybe do a little video if that’s allowed-
Tim Pickett: Yeah, that’d be great.
Chris Holifield: … and get some visual.
Dashiel: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Well, cool. Really quickly, Tim, anything you want to mention, utahmarijuana.org is how they can get a hold of you, right?
Tim Pickett: Yep, utahmarijuana.org and utahmarijuana.org/podcast is where all of the podcasts are available. And we’re caught up, Chris.
Chris Holifield: We are caught up.
Tim Pickett: We’re caught up, they’re all there.
Chris Holifield: And leave us some reviews in iTunes if you haven’t yet. We want to see some reviews in there. Share your podcast episodes with your family and friends because that’s how we get the word out, right?
Tim Pickett: That’s right.
Chris Holifield: We are advertising, but it isn’t either, so-
Tim Pickett: No, it isn’t. And look for us in Salt Baked City.
Chris Holifield: Oh, yeah.
Tim Pickett: We’ve got an ad coming out in Salt Baked City, Utah in the Weeds.
Chris Holifield: Go, Cole.
Tim Pickett: It’s going to be really cool.
Dashiel: First publication, right, first print?
Tim Pickett: Yep, first print, he’ll be a guest coming up. So yeah.
Chris Holifield: He was on episode 11, I think it was. Go back and listen to that one. Thank you again. It’s Dashiel, right? Dashiel?
Dashiel: Dashiel or Dash.
Chris Holifield: Dashiel.
Dashiel: Dashiel.
Tim Pickett: Dash, perfect.
Chris Holifield: Dash. Uh, thank you so much, and like Tim likes to say…
Tim Pickett: Stay safe out there.
Chris Holifield: All right guys, have a good week.
Utah has come a long way since the ballot initiative to legalize Medical Marijuana was first passed a few years ago. That being said, there is still a long way to go. Episode 45 of Utah in the Weeds discusses where the law is currently broken and how it might be fixed. Tim and Chris’s special guest is a man named Bob Waters.
Waters is a former Navy man and media specialist. He is also a student now as well, going to school to learn horticulture so that he can eventually become a grower. He is very passionate about making Medical Cannabis available to as many Utah patients as possible. [03:04]
Tim, Chris, and Bob had a lengthy discussion about some of the most troubled parts of Utah’s Medical Marijuana law. [20:13] They focused particularly on growing. [21:15] Because of the way the law is written, the number of growers and the amount of product they can produce is limited. Home growing is also prohibited in the state.
Waters believes the time for allowing regulated home growing has arrived. [27:04] It could both lower the cost for patients and remove the need
for some to cross state lines in violation of Utah law. Tim, Chris, and Bob all agreed that something needs to be done on both fronts. Prices need to come down and access has to increase.[45:04]
This podcast is for you if you like to mix discussions of Medical Cannabis with celebrity name dropping. Bob Waters has met some pretty interesting people as an advocate. He mentioned some of them in this podcast. [55:25] Primarily though, the boys talk about how state law affects patients and growers in a way that leaves a lot of room for improvement. The underlying theme is to be patient. Things will get better in time.
Chris Holifield: All right. I think we got the recorder button where the mics are hot. We’ve got the levels good, and let’s welcome everybody out to episode 45 of Utah in the Weeds. My name is Chris Holifield.
Tim Pickett: And I’m Tim Pickett, medical cannabis specialist with utahmarijuana.org. And this week we have an interview we recorded with Bob Waters, a friend of mine that I’ve known for a year, with a deep knowledge of the cannabis space and some good opinions about what is wrong with the law and what needs to change. Yeah, Chris?
Chris Holifield: Oh, he was very opinionated, and I couldn’t believe how vocal he was. I don’t want to give too many spoilers here, but he was basically like, “Hey, I want to grow, and I don’t care what you think about it.”
Tim Pickett: Yeah. And you know what else is really interesting about him is the way he got into cannabis, his knowledge of what works for him as a patient. So he has both this activist side and this patient side, which it’s an interesting conversation. I like Bob a lot and he’s helped me expose our business. He talks to a lot of patients on Instagram. What is he? He’s Bob Waters World 420?
Chris Holifield: Yeah. Yeah, on Instagram. So go give that a follow, and also I want to mention that we talk about a few famous people that he got to partake of cannabis with. I don’t want to give any spoilers.
Tim Pickett: Oh, yeah.
Chris Holifield: So make sure you listen in for that, right? You got to-
Tim Pickett: Right up until the end, Chris.
Chris Holifield: Oh, yeah.
Tim Pickett: Because he’s got that surprise at the end.
Chris Holifield: Oh, yeah.
Tim Pickett: Also, before we get into the interview, we have a Discover Marijuana YouTube channel and we’re going to start posting. We have educational videos there that I do with Blake Smith from Zion Medicinal, and Chris and I are working on doing video for the podcast and going to put some stuff on there hopefully shortly. So I want to give a plug out for that before we get into this interview.
Chris Holifield: Absolutely. And make sure, utahmarijuana.org/podcast is where you can listen to all the podcasts on the website, as well as just subscribe on any podcast player that you listen to podcasts in. Also, go on utahmarijuana.org. I don’t know if you mentioned this, Tim, you’ve got tons of great articles on there as well for people that want to get educated, learning about the laws here in Utah as well as even how to get your card, what to do once you get your card, so on and so forth.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. Excellent.
Chris Holifield: Let’s get into that interview though with Bob Waters. I don’t want to hold people up here too much. Anything else you want to mention about this?
Tim Pickett: No. Thanks, Chris.
Chris Holifield: I’m excited to play it.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, this is a great one.
Chris Holifield: All right, guys. Here we go.
——————————————————-
Bob Waters: I told my family that I wanted to go to California. I wanted to get into the cannabis industry, and I wanted to hang out and smoke weed. And wouldn’t that be cool if I could hang out with Dr. Dre?
Chris Holifield: Now, how long ago was this?
Bob Waters: It was 2018.
Chris Holifield: Okay, so just a couple years ago.
Bob Waters: It was early 2018, yeah. Yeah, yeah. At that time I was working up at the Standard Examiner, at the newspaper. So I’m working in the newspaper, and I was a little ticked off. I was a little ticked off about how the cannabis industry was going. The VA was telling me cannabis is the way to go for my conditions. Cannabis just starts coming at me, you know what I mean? And I’m talking to my family and I’m seeing 4:20 on the clocks, like the crazy weirdo in the movies. And I’m telling my mom, I’m like, “Hey, hey.”
Bob Waters: So fast forward through all that, I try to manifest this job, and I get a call from the publisher… Not Ogden Publishing, rather, it was in Ventura. He gives me a call and he was like, “Hey, you want to come down and be associate publisher of Culture Magazine?” I say, “Well, yes.” So I go home, and I tell my family I’m going to go down there and be the associate publisher of Culture Magazine.
Bob Waters: The instance with Tommy (Chong) was a meet and greet that we had set up. It was at a dispensary down in SoCal. It was South Coast Safe Access, one of my favorite dispensaries down there. They love the veterans. Great discounts, great variety. We set up with Tommy. So his publicist come in, and we set him up there. The pictures I got on Instagram show me with him. He’s hanging out with my wife and we’re talking, and he’s pretty laid-back, right? He’s incredibly high, and he’s been high for a while.
Chris Holifield: His whole life, right?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, pretty much for a while.
Bob Waters: So if you can understand, I don’t think he has a tolerance either, but he’s moving forward. So I’m trying to talk to him, and I’m saying, “Hey bro, can I get your autograph?” He’s like, “Sure. Okay.” So I grab a joint, one of his prerolls. I’m going to have him sign the joint. In the pictures he’s arguing with me. He says, “No, man.” What did he say? He said, “No, man. We smoke them. We don’t sign them.” I’m like, “No, bro. You sign this one. This is for my kids. This isn’t for us. We could smoke another one. I’ll go buy another preroll, bro.” So he signs it, so now I have this little preroll signed by Tommy Chong, which I love, right?
Chris Holifield: Nice.
Tim Pickett: Cool.
Bob Waters: I’ve been tempted to smoke it a couple times up here in Utah since I got back.
Chris Holifield: During those hard moments you’re just-
Bob Waters: Yes.
Chris Holifield: Now, you mentioned Ventura. Man, that’s my home town.
Bob Waters: Oh, right.
Chris Holifield: Did you live in Ventura, or this just happened that this thing was in Ventura that you had to go to?
Bob Waters: Right. So they do like the City Weekly’s, the publishing company out of there.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Bob Waters: And I was actually living down in Irvine at the time, working. The publication Culture was located out of Corona.
Chris Holifield: Okay, okay.
Bob Waters: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, you just mentioned Ventura, my ears perked up. I was like, “Oh my gosh.”
Tim Pickett: That’s cool.
Bob Waters: No, Ventura, beautiful.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Bob Waters: Love the coast. We love going down through Malibu and then looping around the horn there and dropping in, just going through the bays and all that in Ventura. Love it.
Chris Holifield: Now, I imagine your history with cannabis goes back further than 2018, right?
Bob Waters: Yeah. Probably when I was about 11 years old. That’s when I was-
Chris Holifield: So maybe five or six years ago then.
Bob Waters: Yeah, right. Quite a while ago. No, yeah. I was a kid. The first time I was introduced to cannabis we scored a nickel bag from a guy that was local in the area, probably about 11 or 12 years old.
Tim Pickett: Oh wow.
Bob Waters: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Did you grow up around it after that? Did you notice it was everywhere in the community you were in or was it just like kind of everywhere else? Where were you? Where did you grow?
Bob Waters: My family had the album Up In Smoke, right? So, it was played on the stereo. You grew up around it. Roaches are in the ashtray.
Tim Pickett: Got it.
Bob Waters: So it was really more like this was normal in my family anyways, cannabis is normal in my family to some extent, and if not directly in the household, in the community. You meet those they meet, you get to see things like that.
Tim Pickett: Because I remember when we were talking one time, and you and I have known each other just barely over a year now, but we were talking about RSO, right?
Bob Waters: Mm-hmm (affirmative), yes.
Tim Pickett: Because I have a patient that needed some RSO and we were talking about it, and you had said when you were growing up the adults around you, when you were introduced to RSO they were like, “Yeah, don’t mess with that shit. That’s medicine.”
Bob Waters: That’s correct. That’s correct. Well, because it’s just so strong, the potency and the concentration too. When I was growing up anything outside of the whole plant, any concentrate was kind of frowned upon, it was something you were taking it to a different level. You didn’t want to be the dude at 2:00 in the morning sitting in your underwear in the bathtub with two hot butter knives and a toilet paper roll in your mouth burning honey oil. You didn’t want to be that guy.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, that’s intense. That’s intense imagery right there.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Bob Waters: You don’t want to be that guy.
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Bob Waters: So, concentrates are frowned upon, and RSO is like the granddaddy, the grand poobah of concentrates.
Tim Pickett: Sure. It has a place but really only, in my opinion, it kind of only should have a place in the medicinal type regimen.
Bob Waters: I would agree with you.
Tim Pickett: Right. It’s just I just don’t see that any … I’m of the opinion that any substance that’s that strong, that concentrated is probably not good for human consumption in general, unless there’s a specific reason, RSO would fit that.
Bob Waters: I would agree. I think once it’s manipulated outside of the whole plant, then we’re taking it to a different place.
Tim Pickett: Sure.
Bob Waters: And then where are we going? Obviously I think Bob’s condition let’s say versus Mary’s condition and what she might need and he might need, and the variables thereof, that the whole plant can provide perhaps what that individual needs, because I mean, we have this system to embrace the cannabinoids. So if it’s there and she’s ill, and the plant can fix that at a concentrated level, I think that’s awesome, and that’s a one-off case I think, it should be partnered with obviously their medical provider, and it’s something they work together on. So RSO can do that. RSO can put you high as a kite for a year and a half and cure cancer, it can do that. Somebody that’s dealing with PTSD is not dying from cancer. It’s not that it’s not …
Tim Pickett: Yes.
Bob Waters: It’s not anything other than noncomparable scientifically.
Tim Pickett: Right, right. You talk about RSO and curing cancer, and yeah, there are cases we had talked about this with Blake Smith at Zion Pharmaceutical that there is, it’s like about one in 1,000 cases where RSO will shrink a tumor, at least what we know of.
Chris Holifield: Now, when you say an RSO, Rick Simpson oil.
Tim Pickett: Rick Simpson oil.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, yeah, yeah. For people that aren’t familiar.
Bob Waters: Right, right, yeah.
Tim Pickett: Right. It’s a really, really concentrated cannabinoid product. It’s not available in Utah. (*At the time this podcast was recorded. RSO is now available in Utah.) So what do you use cannabis for now medicinally?
Bob Waters: Well, medicinally I microdose through the day to deal with the pain. We got a storm coming because I couldn’t get out of bed this morning without smoking, and normally that’s not the case. I know a storm is coming, but I’ll microdose through the day because I had spinal fusions and I have a lot of heavy metal in my body. So the chronic pain that goes with that, the sativa hybrid allows me to function throughout the day to a pretty articulate level. I’m able to go to school, and function, and work, and all that good stuff.
Bob Waters: At night I’ll use a heavier indica. I suffer from PTSD, and when I say PTSD I really just mean I suffer from the nightmares of war that haunt me, and in order to put them to bed I smoke indica so I can sleep. I don’t want to dream, and I prefer that way, way, way over what I had chosen previously, which was alcohol.
Chris Holifield: Now are you drinking any alcohol?
Bob Waters: No.
Chris Holifield: You completely got off alcohol? All cannabis.
Bob Waters: Correct.
Chris Holifield: That’s awesome.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, you kind of have a trifecta there with the chronic pain, the PTSD, and the addiction —
Bob Waters: Oh yeah, and I’m a gastric bypass.
Tim Pickett: Oh yeah.
Bob Waters: It was like here, have a beer, we all have a beer, you have one, I have three, you have two, I have six. That was terrible.
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Bob Waters: Terrible.
Tim Pickett: For listeners with gastric bypass, and I used to work in bariatric surgery for six years, and the effect of alcohol is absolutely-
Bob Waters: Devastating.
Tim Pickett: Just multiple times.
Chris Holifield: Is it get drunk faster, is that what it was or something?
Tim Pickett: Absolutely. Yeah, you can’t tolerate much alcohol at all. A lot of bariatric surgeons recommend people don’t drink ever.
Bob Waters: Yeah, you should never touch it.
Chris Holifield: So what would happen if you had a beer right now? You would just get so drunk?
Bob Waters: It’d be three beers.
Chris Holifield: Three beers, yeah.
Bob Waters: Three beers.
Chris Holifield: Hey, cheap date.
Bob Waters: Yeah. It’s awesome until you’re in the closet, right? You’re in the closet with your boxed wine because you can’t drink carbonated anymore and you can’t get it in your system fast enough. You’re drinking it as fast as you can but you’re puking it at the same time because you’re just full.
Chris Holifield: And this was you.
Bob Waters: It was like Caligula, only they weren’t tying off the end, you know what I mean?
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Bob Waters: It was just coming out of my mouth. No, that was me.
Chris Holifield: I mean, are your family and friends pretty supportive of you using medical cannabis then? I mean, have they noticed a change within yourself since you’ve used medical cannabis?
Bob Waters: Well, it’s hard to say because I did 20 years in the military.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Bob Waters: And I was on the straight and narrow, right? I didn’t mess with cannabis for 20 years, so the Navy told me not to. I followed orders.
Chris Holifield: Nobody was using cannabis in there?
Bob Waters: It wasn’t worth it. I was told not to, it was pretty simple. I was told not to. The Navy took care of my family and I took care of the country, and I’d just do what I was told. I mean, it was there if you wanted to. I mean, you could just write a letter home and get whatever you want on a ship. I mean, it was there if you wanted it, but …
Chris Holifield: But you weren’t messing around with it.
Bob Waters: I wasn’t messing around with it.
Tim Pickett: It just wasn’t, it just doesn’t … Not a part of your life, right? Like it is now when you got out.
Bob Waters: Right. Also my conditions weren’t as such, that necessarily or the true driving factors for why I participate with it. Because after I got out and retired, by that time I had been through the surgery, I had been into the alcoholism, I had had multiple spine surgeries, I was in a wheelchair, I was taking every opioid you can think of and I was nonproductive, right? So VA comes back and the dude just folds the folder and says, “Have you considered cannabis?” And I’m like, “I’ve considered cannabis, of course, but I don’t want to be a stoner again, dick.” You know what I mean? I was a little pissed off that this is what they decided, that I should just go get high. Oh, but by the way, you live in Utah, so you’re screwed.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. Okay, so now you get into … Is that kind of when you decided to get into the activism? Part of it, or did that take a while?
Bob Waters: Well, I was in California for this introduction, so it was a no-brainer. I went down to Dr. 420, I paid. I was still technically … It’s a back and forth deal between Utah and California for a while, but the deal was while I was in California is when I went to the dispensary, a dispensary for the first time. California I picked up my first clone, right? That was the first experience since I’d retired from the Navy and been done. We moved back to Utah, which has been my home, but doing that I subjected myself of course to the laws of Utah, so I abstained from cannabis again. I wasn’t on the medications that they would rather me be on because I was resistant to those. So it was a volatile time for me and very painful time as well. But I got the job, I was working at the newspaper, and that’s when-
Chris Holifield: In California.
Bob Waters: No.
Chris Holifield: In Utah.
Tim Pickett: That was the Standard Examiner.
Bob Waters: That’s right. Then the VA, I’m back in with the VA and they’re telling me the same thing Cali VA is telling me because I’m telling them, I’m like, “Yo, bro. I was down in Cali and everything is working right.” And he’s like, “Well, this is the way to do it if you want to do it, but you can’t do it here.”
Tim Pickett: Right. We get a lot of referrals from the VA frankly. They have a good system up there and they take care of people.
Bob Waters: They’re great people.
Tim Pickett: And they know cannabis works.
Bob Waters: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: I mean, they can’t use it at all. Thank god there’s a law that doesn’t take away your veteran’s benefits.
Bob Waters: That’s right.
Tim Pickett: If you’re using within the state law, right?
Bob Waters: Right. Then there’s a law that was just put on the floor recently by a representative I believe of the House from Florida. I posted his name, I can’t pronounce it, but he’s putting in a bill to protect those rights again for anyone that’s prescribed. So abiding by the law, he’s not asking for the Federal Government to do anything other than allow the states to operate their program without fear of federal repercussion.
Tim Pickett: Yep.
Chris Holifield: For VA.
Bob Waters: For the VA.
Tim Pickett: For the VA.
Bob Waters: Right. Because there’s those in fear that want to step forward but they don’t want to lose their VA rights and benefits.
Tim Pickett: Well, there’s still a ton of vets who, they’ll even come in here with their spouse and they don’t touch anything with THC because they don’t know, and even when you explain it they’re like, “Yeah, no. I’m not going to risk it.”
Bob Waters: Yeah, my buddy Israel even advised me, so go back to your question about the community, totally embraced and whatever. No, not necessarily, right? Because I come from two different worlds, three different worlds really now. But those in the straight and narrow that don’t have that as an option for them as a medicine, the rules are set up to restrict that, and they’re used to that. So they just need to be told it’s okay, not be told, “Wink, wink, it’s okay.”
Chris Holifield: As long as they have their medical card in Utah it’s okay though.
Bob Waters: Correct.
Tim Pickett: Correct, yeah. I mean, as long as, and that is-
Chris Holifield: I just want people to know that listening, right? Like hey.
And there is a federal law that protects the veteran benefits from being taken away if you’re abiding by the state rules. Which means if you are smoking week outside of the law, if you don’t have a card, then you don’t have that protection as a veteran.
Bob Waters: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: So that’s the caveat, right? We’ll protect you, but therefore if you’re now outside of the law, then you might not be protected.
Chris Holifield: So it’s a good idea to get your card.
Bob Waters: So what do you do when the law is broken though?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, so talk to us about your opinion about that, because you wrote a letter to the governor about this.
Bob Waters: I have a very strong opinion about that.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I mean, we agree on some of these things.
Bob Waters: And not all of them.
Tim Pickett: Even though I’m in business, I have this clinic, and we do, and it’s expensive for patients, and you and I have talked a lot about how to develop a program for low income, and this cooperative. Okay, what’s going on?
Bob Waters: Revenue is fuel.
Tim Pickett: Yes.
Bob Waters: We start there. Revenue is fuel. The industry needs revenue in order to fuel what it needs to do to progress itself. That’s the market, and that’s ever-present, without revenue. Normally it comes from sweat equity, it comes from private investors, it comes from people willing to put in their own money, people willing to run credit cards, all that terrible stuff. That’s normal in any new market, new industry, new market. For Utah this is a new industry, it’s a new market, and so it’s okay. Except that they’re using it improperly, or naming it properly, or theming it properly, or using the catalyst to the industry is based on the needs of patients, but the needs of patients aren’t being met because they’re governed by a law that is broken. Now, that’s my opinion, it’s not a fact.
Chris Holifield: So, explain this a little bit more. So you say you think the Utah medical laws are broken.
Bob Waters: I do.
Chris Holifield: Explain a little bit more. Not that I don’t agree, but I’d love to hear your thoughts.
Bob Waters: So currently my doctor says I need Blue Dream.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Bob Waters: It’s my medicine. He also says that I need [amexopol 00:20:28], I need a stomach medicine.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Bob Waters: I go to Walgreens, I have no doubt that they will have my meds or they will have them within a day or so. I cannot get Blue Dream.
Chris Holifield: Cannabis.
Tim Pickett: Yep.
Bob Waters: Cannabis, yeah. I’m stuck.
Chris Holifield: So in most states is that possible? It’s like let’s say you had a card in, even a brand-new state that just opened up. What’s one of the newest states that just opened up? Say Virginia, right? Virginia is new, right?
Bob Waters: Oklahoma is going crazy.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, Virginia. Oklahoma is going crazy.
Chris Holifield: Would you be able to go there and get Blue Dream? I mean, can you-
Bob Waters: Well not anymore, the law has changed to restrict that.
Chris Holifield: This isn’t just a Utah problem though, right? This is a common thing in most states that open up.
Bob Waters: I can only speak from my own experiences on that.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Bob Waters: I use Blue Dream to set the hard example. What’s hidden behind that is the fact that the monopoly, the Utah governous monopoly over the restriction over the natural development of the cannabis market, it’s noncompetitive. It doesn’t allow for growers to come in, new growers to come in. They’re going to offer different varieties, they’re going to offer lower rates, they’re going to often discounts, they’re going to attract more patients. Now, this is all great for a retail market, but it’s a medical market, and so it has a cap. If we had the data, and I know the boys in Provo have it, but if we had the data that could show us there are X amount of patients within the State of Utah that suffer from each of these different qualifying conditions and they earn X amount of dollars per year. X amount of dollars per year and then just do the math, it stops there.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, you’re saying that basically if you were to take the actual medical data and say, “Here’s how many people in Utah suffer from chronic pain.”
Bob Waters: Right.
Tim Pickett: Because we know, we have all this electronic health data. Take all that information, then we can get an average income for all those people. Then we essentially know the potential market for cannabis for pain, for that condition.
Bob Waters: Unless I was trying to disprove that there’s a need for it, then I can use the data to skew it to say that this is a limited actual demand.
Tim Pickett: Interesting.
Bob Waters: Bob’s registered, he’s a member of the state, he uses an ounce a week, but it’s weird that he doesn’t buy an ounce a week. That’s weird.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. See, now you’re talking about … I think it’s probably a little confusing to listen to all this.
Bob Waters: Yeah, I know, because I go all over the place.
Tim Pickett: Because we’re here in person, so it makes a little bit more sense.
Bob Waters: I’m eager to talk about something, so I’ll jump on one and then I get a little confused.
Chris Holifield: Dude, that’s the joy of a podcast, man.
Tim Pickett: That’s right.
Chris Holifield: It’s all over the place.
Tim Pickett: That’s right.
Chris Holifield: I mean, the thing is we get so many different types of people that listen to this podcast, Bob. I mean, you’re one of the people. I mean, Tim, I mean all of us.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, all of us.
Chris Holifield: We got people that are listening that are new to cannabis, we got old timers, we got old school.
Tim Pickett: Sure.
Chris Holifield: So a lot of the people, that’s even why I wanted to clarify RSO and I want to clarify these things because a lot of people they don’t realize that hey, there are some people, like yourself, you said, “Hey, an ounce a week.” I mean, some people are like, “Holy schnikes, that’s a lot of weed.”
Tim Pickett: Right. Yeah.
Chris Holifield: But to some people that’s not, and the thing is people up on Capitol Hill, they might not realize hey, a lot of people might need an ounce a week, and if you were to go to the Utah dispensaries you’re going to be dropping 400 plus on an ounce if you were to buy.
Tim Pickett: We talked before we started recording, you’re a $24,000 a year habit.
Chris Holifield: Exactly, yeah.
Tim Pickett: Not a habit, but a medical need, right? It’s funny how we say these things like we’re-
Bob Waters: The state makes me feel like it’s a habit.
Tim Pickett: Right, that’s right.
Chris Holifield: But my question is, I’ve heard prices are pretty similar though to other states, and that’s where I’m like, I hear-
Bob Waters: Well, here in the city no.
Chris Holifield: … that the price is expensive, but when I hear that say Chicago or Pennsylvania is even more, for their medical they’re looking at like closer to 80, 85 for an eighth.
Bob Waters: Right.
Tim Pickett: Right, and then there’s this argument that we’ve heard from Bijan in Beehive that is, and we’ve heard it from Jeremy Sumerix at Deseret too. If you switch this market to retail and you start charging 20% tax on it, the $60 eighth here goes up to 80 bucks.
Chris Holifield: Right.
Tim Pickett: So we’re not getting the whole picture, but back to your Blue Dream point, growing keeps coming back as this thing that is missing from, and really it’s people like yourself maybe who are in this what I would consider legacy users or legacy growers. People who have experience with the product, they know what they want. They could probably grow a plant or two during the year, and whether or not that’s going to be your whole … It might not be your whole medical intake, but it would supplement. Think about if you could grow two plants a year and get four or five ounces, that’s a lot of money.
Bob Waters: Well, the offset too it’s you have the ability to supply almost your entire demand if the law is written correctly and allows you to have a continual growth cycle. As long as you have adults, adolescents and babies continuously, then you’re harvesting continuously.
Tim Pickett: Right, from a plant perspective, not a human perspective.
Bob Waters: From a plant.
Tim Pickett: Yes, yes, you’re right. As long as you have the ability to cycle through the plants and you knew what you were doing so you can pull the clones off and things like that. Do you think that there’s a time now? So I like the market now. I think there are some problems with it, of course, like everybody. But I’m in it enough to know, or my opinion is we should all just be patient with the way things are and let things settle a little bit more, but that being said, we run into patients who cannot afford, well they can’t afford the clinic fees, well they want to or they don’t want to go to their primary care provider. One, their primary care provider might not offer the service, two, they don’t know anything about cannabis and how to help somebody. So do you think that it’s reasonable not to allow growing for now?
Bob Waters: The law is so anti-Utah, it sickens me.
Chris Holifield: The law in Utah. So, let’s talk about this then.
Bob Waters: Yeah. I mean, let’s think about it. We as Utahns are a state of self-providers. We are taught daily that we should be able to take care of our own. If there is a way for us to have a garden, if there is a way for us to have a food stock pile, if there is a way for us to have a little bit extra so that we can give a little bit extra. If there’s a way to that, that’s the Utah way.
Chris Holifield: The industrious state.
Bob Waters: Right.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. This provide for your neighbor, the community garden. I remember when I first got married we had a ward garden.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: You know what though? They had to deliver the tomatoes to people before they went bad because there wasn’t enough people to go get their own damn tomatoes. It was terrible.
Chris Holifield: There was an excess.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, right. But this Utah way, you are absolutely.
Bob Waters: The Utah law is written, it restricts that. The Utah law is written, it says you cannot do that. You cannot do that. You will do it our way, this way, inefficiently, you will comply. It’s not a Utah thing.
Chris Holifield: But when you say not comply, that means growing, right?
Bob Waters: Correct.
Chris Holifield: Growing as far. Is that really the only part you have an issue? I mean, there are probably other things that you have issues with Utah laws.
Bob Waters: Well, there’s a lot of legalities.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Bob Waters: So the first thing they changed recently in January when they restricted us from going to Colorado or outside the state, right? Previously to that the law was written that it forced us to violate federal interstate trafficking laws if we wanted to get the volume that we needed at the price we could afford in the strains that we needed. You’d have to cross the state lines, then risk federal prosecution.
Bob Waters: In January, that … What would we call that, Tim? That luxury went away.
Tim Pickett: Right. Well, the luxury to break federal law, right?
Bob Waters: Went away.
Tim Pickett: And you have this … Man, this is so complicated because there’s all kinds of things that go along with this, including they postpone reciprocity, so people from out of state can’t come, use cannabis yet until they developed that rule. If Rich Oborn is listening, Rich, I get it, you’re busy. That law took a little bit of time. We’ve waited 20 years, we can wait a few more months. But the issue with the buying cannabis in outside markets and then bringing it back or even having it here with COVID. Two things I’d say to that.
Bob Waters: Correct.
Tim Pickett: With COVID the amount of growing that these growers have done is much less than they could’ve done before. There’s less dispensaries or pharmacies open than would’ve been open. Had COVID not been the case we would’ve probably had St. George open by now, because the market would’ve been more developed a little bit. So there’s less product in the state than there would have been if there hadn’t been a pandemic, which makes your point more valid, in my opinion, right? Being able to bring it in would been a better thing, a benefit.
Bob Waters: But what triggered me having to break those laws, what triggered me to have to go to Colorado? What triggered me to have to go to Nevada? Ding dong, I’m trying to comply. You have flower? We have indica.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, for five hours.
Bob Waters: Well, I need sativa during the day, I need it every day.
Tim Pickett: Now, should I just say, “Bob, you’ve been waiting years. I mean, you’re just going to have to wait a little bit longer.”
Bob Waters: What do you mean waiting years? I wasn’t waiting. I was waiting for Utah to catch up with me.
Tim Pickett: See.
Bob Waters: Now I’m compliant.
Tim Pickett: That’s right. Right, you want to be-
Bob Waters: Compliant.
Tim Pickett: … compliant.
Bob Waters: So I subject to your law, I’m compliant, I go to your store. Ding dong, you don’t have anything for me. Sorry, why don’t you have an opioid?
Tim Pickett: So, the other point-
Bob Waters: What do I do? What do I do?
Tim Pickett: I know, this is true. And the other thing I was going to say about the bringing it in from outside is that when you do that, they have written the statute really protective of the Utah industry, right? Even if federal law changes our statute here says you cannot have cannabis purchased outside of Utah. So it doesn’t matter really if federal law changes, it’s more restrictive here and that will likely hold. I’d be a good question for JD.
Chris Holifield: Isn’t that the same in every state though?
Tim Pickett: I would imagine, right.
Chris Holifield: Technically you shouldn’t be crossing the state line with it.
Tim Pickett: No, but if they decriminalize it and they allow transfer of this product between states, that won’t matter in Utah because the law is written.
Chris Holifield: Wow, I didn’t realize that.
Tim Pickett: That you have to purchase it here.
Bob Waters: Oh, that’s a big deal.
Tim Pickett: But that was a smart lobbying, in my opinion.
Chris Holifield: So they knew what they were doing.
Tim Pickett: I mean, if you were somebody who is investing millions of dollars you would’ve wanted a protection like that in case the feds decriminalize it. So I can see both sides, right?
Bob Waters: Well, if I had a couple of fiduciaries with me I’d tell you we could figure out based on patients what the market cap would be, based on Social Security and disability.
Chris Holifield: We were talking to somebody, I don’t know if this podcast has been aired yet, about how originally they were only planning like 6,000 patients. Now we have like-
Tim Pickett: Oh, with Katie Barber.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, 20,000 patients.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, with the state. Yeah, 6,000.
Chris Holifield: It’s like let’s catch up.
Tim Pickett: In fact, we had talked to Zion about this too.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: That they had really … There were some projections of 16,000, but when the growers come and talk to us on this podcast, they were told six, 7,000 patients the first year. That’s how much product you have to grow for.
Bob Waters: And that’s what they’re growing for.
Tim Pickett: And really they’re probably … Yeah, I mean, maybe six or 7,000 card holders could, there’s enough product out there for them. I don’t know, maybe.
Bob Waters: Well, that is a little skewed because there’s a secondary market for that product. So, there’s a lot of repeat patient user buyers that aren’t the users themselves.
Tim Pickett: I suspect that that secondary market is bigger than people are willing to talk about. So the state max you can buy in Utah is four ounces of flower a month. That’s only if you’re a provider like me, if I say, “Bob, you’re my patient, and you can access the state maximum, so four ounces.” And I don’t do that very often because people don’t use that much very often. The average user is not using four ounces a month.
Bob Waters: A think a lot more would like to, it’s just expensive.
Tim Pickett: Maybe. Well, there’s all kinds of reasons. But people are increasing their purchasing so they can give it away.
Bob Waters: I wish I used less.
Tim Pickett: Right.
Bob Waters: I wish I used less.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. Okay, so you bring up a really good point again there. The people who are actually using that much want to use less. The people who are using an ounce a month, they’re buying three. I mean, they’re probably not making a profit, and if they are making a profit, boy, it’s not very much. But they’re giving it or selling it away to their friends and family.
Bob Waters: Well, the secondary market here in Utah is screwed up right now because CBD flower’s been introduced into it.
Chris Holifield: Oh, in the black market they’re selling CBD flower as regular flower.
Bob Waters: Correct, right.
Chris Holifield: And people are getting ripped off, huh?
Bob Waters: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Ooh, really.
Bob Waters: Yeah. So what happened is now you go outside the state on the border stores, you can’t get anything but nugs the size of eraser heads, tight like rocks. So the growers shrunk, they shrunk the buds into tight little rocks, you can’t make a hemp flower like that. Hemp flower is too big, big fat indica buds, right? Those big monster ones they show you on Instagram.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, the Matterhorns. I mean, they’re huge.
Bob Waters: Yeah, big things right there. So we know those are no good now. So, they put a big den in indica but sativa was safe. So even the indica now you’re getting it small, and they’re forcing smaller buds because smaller buds mean safer transactions.
Tim Pickett: Interesting. I don’t follow the secondary market much.
Bob Waters: Well, it’s hard to spend $24,000 in the store on weed. My wife would frown upon that.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. When you’ve become a student again as well, right?
Bob Waters: Correct, correct.
Chris Holifield: You’re taking some classes?
Bob Waters: I am. I’m a registered student in Utah State University’s horticulture program.
Chris Holifield: There you go. You’re going to learn how to do some growing?
Bob Waters: I am, I am. I’d love to own a nursery someday.
Tim Pickett: Okay. Was it really the pandemic that kind of … Did it force you back into this or did it-
Bob Waters: It did. It did. My last opportunity got heavily affected by COVID. I’m not a victim kind of guy, so even though it sucks and it’s whatever, it’s how do we be productive. Interactions are limited right now and restricted. I felt comfortable using it as an opportunity to take a step back and go to school, study up and learn a new trade.
Tim Pickett: Cool. Are you able to use veteran benefits to help?
Bob Waters: I am, I am. It’s voc rehab.
Tim Pickett: That’s super cool.
Bob Waters: Yeah. It’s beautiful. I love the VA.
Chris Holifield: That’s awesome, man.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, that’s pretty awesome.
Bob Waters: I love the VA. I love the State of Utah.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Bob Waters: So I will risk my livelihood, I’ll risk anything to be here.
Chris Holifield: Well, that’s what I was wondering. Why not move to Colorado or Oregon or something? It seems like it would be a lot easier.
Tim Pickett: We have people like this all the time, right Chris?
Chris Holifield: I hate saying that, like, “Get out of Utah.” But it’s like-
Tim Pickett: I know, but this …
Bob Waters: Well, here’s the problem. Utah is a great place.
Chris Holifield: Well, it is.
Tim Pickett: It is.
Chris Holifield: That’s what I was excited about.
Tim Pickett: I mean, I think the question … Chris is asking the question. I would ask the question in this way, like what about Utah makes you stay here? Because everybody stays. There’s just so many people who want to be here.
Bob Waters: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: For whatever reason agree or disagree with parts of this cannabis law, or frankly other things.
Bob Waters: Yeah. I think-
Tim Pickett: I mean, the cannabis is not the only thing that forces people to —
Bob Waters: Yeah. I sent a very candid letter to the governor, Governor Herbert. I sent a very candid letter to the governor, outlying a point paper of things that bother me. I brought up a lot of the things we’ve talked about today. I would say that his response was very eloquent.
Chris Holifield: Oh, so he responded.
Bob Waters: Not him, his office.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Bob Waters: Let me say it’s his office, but from his constituents’ office. The response back I got officially was that they recognize that the problem exists with the laws, the program, and that we’re working on it. Basically it was saying be patient.
Tim Pickett: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Holifield: What would help more growers? Do you think that would help the law, or home grow?
Bob Waters: Well, I think unfortunately you either have to decide that you want a retail market or not.
Chris Holifield: Or not, yeah.
Bob Waters: If you got BOGOs, if you got specials, if you got red lights, if you’ve got vans out front with the flappy little things, if you’ve got that, that’s a retail market in essence.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Bob Waters: That’s not a medical market, and a true medical market can’t support itself.
Chris Holifield: Those are the examples I guess I needed to hear because I didn’t realize that. That makes sense to me because I’ve heard this time and time again. I’m like, well, what is it about it that people aren’t considering a medical market? And I see that.
Bob Waters: Yeah, and it’s non-supportive. The State of California tried that with the Compassionate Care Act. They tried that, they used that as a springboard, they had patients. That’s a standard rule. Okay, we run a cannabis program, what do we do? Okay, let’s show six trembling kids and babies, the voters will say yes.
Tim Pickett: Yep.
Bob Waters: And then that happens. Well, in California they used AIDS patients, HIV, cancer, babies. Congratulations, you got a Compassionate Care program, Compassionate Care Act, that rolls out, that transferred into a retail market and the patients were left behind. Now, the medical program in the State of California doesn’t exist.
Chris Holifield: There’s none.
Bob Waters: It doesn’t matter anymore.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Bob Waters: The retail market is so beat down by the black market and the prices are very affordable, and it’s reasonable. You can go in on any given day and find somewhere where you can get an eight, $10 gram.
Chris Holifield: That’d be nice.
Tim Pickett: Right.
Chris Holifield: Wow.
Tim Pickett: So here-
Bob Waters: There’s top-shelf, bottom-shelf, mid-shelf, but that’s just the walk-in price. 10 bucks, 12 bucks, no problem.
Tim Pickett: And here we’ve essentially what you’re saying is mixed the retail market and the medical market because we have those specials.
Bob Waters: Yes. Well, let’s just say that on a standard price, standard price on a gram is about 15.71. $15.71, that’s about standard price. The problem is with cannabis anyone that’s been using it for a while, you get deals on volume. If I buy a pound, I’m not going to pay the same per gram price. If I buy an ounce, if I buy a quarter ounce, if I buy an eighth, if I buy a gram. Kind of like, I don’t know, but that’s just the way the industry’s been ran.
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Bob Waters: And that’s the way. So the people we bring in, we import people from other markets, we bring in habits, we bring in styles, we bring in people that are operating multistate operations. Multistate operation trade, do you think they’re going to write a SOP on everything for Utah and then an SOP for every different state? So they got standards and things happen, right?
Tim Pickett: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Bob Waters: But going back to that. Where were we at? The pricing.
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Bob Waters: Pricing variances, they’re just high. Now, if I’m a true patient. Well, let’s just say your standard patient in the State of Utah that’s on disability, what do they make in a month?
Tim Pickett: Well, it’s like $800.
Bob Waters: Let’s go big, let’s say 1,200.
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Bob Waters: 1,200 bucks a month, that barely pays their rent. Barely pays the rent. They’re already out.
Tim Pickett: That’s right, they’re already out. This is the conversation that you and I have had many times, is how can we get the cannabis into their hands to reduce the prescription medications that they have to take?
Bob Waters: Correct.
Tim Pickett: This is not about getting cannabis into their hands illegally so they can use it on top of their medications, this is changing their life for the better.
Bob Waters: This is people breaking the law.
Chris Holifield: That don’t want to. They don’t want to break the law, they just want their medicine.
Bob Waters: They want to be compliant.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Bob Waters: They can’t afford it because Utah is making enough money. What are they making? $3 on a transaction?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, three bucks on a transaction, but most of the fees that the state makes are-
Bob Waters: Are back end.
Tim Pickett: … all on the back end not of the front end.
Bob Waters: Right.
Tim Pickett: It’s the licensing fees, and the testing fees, the Department of Ag, those testing fees I think are high. I don’t know what they are. They’re getting their fees somewhere.
Bob Waters: It costs about $5 to put a seed in the ground, right? If you buy it in bulk, let’s just say five, 10 bucks to put a seed in the ground. If we were to try and do cost analysis on where is the restrictive on this whole pipeline, where would the restrictive chokehold be, it’s going to be between the growers and the state.
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Bob Waters: That’s where the money is at. Okay, that’s fine, but then they also limit the amount of growers, so they’re limiting their revenue. It’s just …
Chris Holifield: They’ll figure it out though.
Bob Waters: It baffles my mind.
Chris Holifield: They’ll figure it out, I think. I mean, I want to hope they do.
Tim Pickett: So you and I talked about-
Bob Waters: More square feet. The growers need more, the solution is more square footage.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, and isn’t that on the hill right now, 100,000?
Bob Waters: More square footage.
Tim Pickett: More square footage is on the bill right now, and I think there’s some pretty hard push to get them more canopy.
Bob Waters: Well, if the deal is if they restrict, if they don’t let them export and they gave them all the square footage they need, we’d have enough cannabis.
Tim Pickett: Oh yeah, they’ll grow enough, I mean.
Bob Waters: Yeah, they’ll grow.
Tim Pickett: Come on, right? Tryke, Zion, Wholesome, Dragonfly.
Chris Holifield: They’ll grow.
Tim Pickett: They’ll grow as much as we need.
Bob Waters: As much as they can sell.
Tim Pickett: They’ll grow as much as they can sell, that’s true.
Bob Waters: So are they willing to drop the price to sell more? Man, that sounds like a retail market.
Tim Pickett: It is so true.
Chris Holifield: Have you noticed prices are actually going up since they’ve opened? Because when they started, when Dragonfly started they were selling an eighth for about 50, 55, and now it’s tough to find anything for under 60.
Bob Waters: Oh really?
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, it’s interesting.
Chris Holifield: And it’s interesting that-
Bob Waters: I knew they had options before.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Bob Waters: And then I came in one time, and you could get … And I love them.
Chris Holifield: Sure.
Bob Waters: I hate on them a little bit only because they represent something that I have angst with, but them themselves I love them. They’re great people, they’re trying their best with what they got.
Tim Pickett: They are. To Dragonfly’s credit, I met with them, their owners last week, and they really are devoted to quality.
Bob Waters: I believe that 100%.
Tim Pickett: Which is just, I mean, that’s a good thing. They really are devoted to quality.
Bob Waters: Their distillate is top-shelf.
Tim Pickett: It is. They don’t use anything to cut it down with, it’s a big deal to them.
Bob Waters: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: So, how do we get these people … What’s the idea of getting these lower income people into the system if we can’t change the law? We’ve got to have some way for the dispensaries, and these pharmacies, and these growers to offer … I mean, what have they got? They’ve got to offer something, I’ve got to offer something in the clinics. We all essentially have to team up to have a sliding, essentially like a sliding scale program, like a membership program if you’re on disability.
Bob Waters: Yeah. I’ve tried that. I’ve tried something like that, I wired it up. I had a few people that were interested. Basically what it was is that if you were a member, member of our union.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, the union.
Bob Waters: If you could afford like a monthly fee of say 50 bucks, or maybe we make it income based, right? If you remember that, what we did is we had a partner dispensary and a partner medical provider so that we could bypass some of these fees that are cost restrictive to access to care. Not a lot of interest.
Tim Pickett: The two things I think about are everybody’s … There’s a lot of people busy, right? The growers are busy expanding, the pharmacies are busy expanding, just trying to keep their head above water, not above water as far as the financials, but above water as far as the build out, and I’ve got to open, and I got to see all these patients.
Bob Waters: Yeah. It felt like I had a grower that was like 100% down, right? Or we’d have people that were into it, and it’s cool, but overall. Then we’re talking to actual patients. I went out and talked to people that are breaking laws right now. They go out and score their $20 in Liberty Park every day, right? I ask them, “Why do you do that?” He’s like, “I ain’t got 250 bucks.”
Tim Pickett: Right.
Bob Waters: And he goes, “But why would I do that? I’m getting this for 20 bucks. How much are you getting what you’re getting for? I don’t have that money, I can’t afford it.” It isn’t about want to be compliant, they’re cost out. They’re just cost out, so he’s doing his transaction. Sometimes just be able to say, “Come on, just sign up 50 bucks a month. You’re paying $20 a day.” What a deal.
Tim Pickett: Right, right, what a deal.
Bob Waters: What a deal.
Tim Pickett: You can get an indica, you can get a sativa.
Bob Waters: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: You don’t get a ton of choice out on the black market.
Bob Waters: You don’t get arrested.
Tim Pickett: You’re not going to get a ton of choice in the dispensary because they’re going to give you whatever they have.
Bob Waters: Bottom-shelf.
Tim Pickett: Bottom-shelf, but that’s what you’re getting out on the street probably.
Bob Waters: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: At least half the time.
Bob Waters: Yeah. At least it’s clean. At least it’s clean and legal, right?
Tim Pickett: Yep.
Bob Waters: Clean and legal. If it was affordable. And I ask them, I say, “If it was the same price, you can go to the store, talk to the nice person behind the counter every day and spend your $20, or you could go spend it in the park in this illegal transaction. Which would you rather do?”
Tim Pickett: Sure.
Bob Waters: They go to the park.
Chris Holifield: Why do you think the State of Utah is afraid of home grow? Why do you think they don’t want people growing here?
Tim Pickett: I mean, from a business standpoint I know why the growers don’t want people to home grow.
Bob Waters: Oh, I think they do.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, but I mean, really people aren’t going to … I mean, that would be like the grocery store afraid that we have a garden, you know what I mean?
Tim Pickett: That’s exactly what I was thinking right now. The farmer’s market is booming, and I can grow tomatoes in my garden for free.
Chris Holifield: But you still go.
Tim Pickett: But I still go down to the farmer’s market and buy expensive tomatoes frankly. Yeah, that’s a good …
Chris Holifield: I don’t know, I’m just curious what-
Tim Pickett: You make a really great point. And I would love to play with it, right? I don’t want to grow production.
Chris Holifield: No.
Tim Pickett: But I’m fascinated with growing a home garden, and I would be fascinated with growing a Blue Dream or growing a Pineapple Express, or growing something from a seed that I thought man, you know what? I did this on my own. I understand the process better and then I think I’d appreciate the medicine more.
Chris Holifield: Well, just some way to bring the price down, like you were saying, Bob. I mean, they could even sell us the plant. I better not give them any ideas, right? The State of Utah any ideas, but it just seems like there would be some way that they could still get some money from us, right?
Bob Waters: Yeah, they could track it, because they’re already tracking it.
Tim Pickett: Only let the growers be the nursery, right?
Chris Holifield: Yeah, something, I don’t know.
Bob Waters: So there’s a couple different ways. Probably the easiest way, and it can subsidize it so you’re buying a clone from the grower that’s tagged, you’re just buying one of their plants and you take it home. It’s tagged, it’s registered. I mean, so there is some restrictions on that, right? Putting your name in there, saying, “Hey, here’s my address. I have a cannabis plant. I don’t live within a 100 feet from a school.” Or whatever legislation.
Tim Pickett: I’m sure they can come up with something.
Bob Waters: Whatever’s in there, or you just go check the plant out. You rent a car the way you rent a plant, it’s the same deal. You just take it home, that’s the easiest way.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Bob Waters: The easiest way, but if you want to be like, “No, I want to order my seeds from Amsterdam and I want to be completely au naturel, and I want to pick everything, everything, everything.” Fine, then go apply for a tag and be willing to subject yourself to inspection.
Chris Holifield: Sure.
Bob Waters: The inspector comes in. How many plants are you supposed to have in this residence? One. Where is it? Right here. Oh.
Tim Pickett: Good.
Bob Waters: Good. Hey, it looks nice. Smells kind of stinky. Okay, your house is kind of stinky.
Tim Pickett: That’s funny.
Bob Waters: I mean, most people don’t want their house to the kind of stinky, I don’t know.
Chris Holifield: Yeah. You make it sound so easy, Bob.
Tim Pickett: I know, and we’ve kind of gone down the rabbit hole here. I like this discussion. It seems so reasonable to come up with solutions to some of these things that the government imposes on us.
Bob Waters: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: There is a question I want to ask you, and this could be a big topic, but I think you’re the perfect person to ask this. PTSD, that’s currently what you use cannabis for, correct?
Bob Waters: Correct.
Chris Holifield: How do you feel about them taking that away from you as a qualifying condition?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, there’s some discussion about removing it.
Chris Holifield: I mean, especially we’ve been talking about VA. I mean, I know that’s a big thing used in the VA.
Bob Waters: My job was to end human life, that’s counterintuitive to how I think we’re wired as humans and causes some clinical issues. That’s different from getting hit with a bag of flour and now being afraid to go down aisle five. So, I don’t think lawmakers are well versed in what PTSD really is, and I don’t think they’re qualified to govern it. They should let the governing of medical conditions be left to the medical field, in my opinion.
Chris Holifield: Amen, yeah.
Tim Pickett: There you go.
Chris Holifield: I was just curious because I know we’ve talked about that probably in the last —
Bob Waters: That’s kind of dark, but that’s how I feel about it, right? But if I say I got PTSD. I got PTSD, I’m afraid of batteries. I got hit in the head when I was a kid by seven people that hit me with batteries. That’s a real condition maybe, right?
Tim Pickett: Right, yeah.
Bob Waters: And I can’t disqualify that per se, but I could say this. For me I have reoccurring nightmares. So every night I have these repetitive dreams of doing things that are terrible, in my opinion, and they’re there, and it’s all night, and I don’t sleep, and it’s just repeat over, and over, and over again. So, like I said, cannabis was an alternative to my first choice, which was alcohol. If you drink enough you can pass out and you won’t dream.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, but one of the benefits of cannabis is it works on the memory centers of the brain and it’s ideal for disassociating memories when it’s used appropriately.
Bob Waters: Yeah, it’s great.
Tim Pickett: It’s actually with PTSD there is some interest in studying heavy cannabis use right after an event that is people have a potential to develop a PTSD. So I’d like to see a study that gives heavy cannabis doses, heavy THC doses right after the event, disassociate the memory from the event so that you don’t form those connections.
Bob Waters: Amazing. That’d be like a rate.
Tim Pickett: Right, and then you don’t have to deal.
Bob Waters: Let’s say that was a rate.
Tim Pickett: It’s that type of premise. So then you can dose them with heavy THC, you limit the connections that are formed in that immediate period after, and then you can essentially reduce the PTSD trigger later. It’s a very interesting treatment theory for cannabis use. I mean, it’s not currently —
Bob Waters: That’s why we have to get it into the scientist’s hands.
Tim Pickett: Exactly.
Bob Waters: More smart people, smarter than me. They need smarter than us. Look, we end up making it kind of cool. We need scientists to take this plant to a different place. That’s what I think.
Chris Holifield: You were mentioning Blue Dream as a favorite strain. Is that your all-time favorite strain or what’s your all-time favorite strain?
Bob Waters: I use it as a favorite.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Bob Waters: Through the years though I look more for … And because it’s like what are you really getting, right? Hey I’m selling you some Acapulco Gold. Yeah, sure you are.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, sure.
Bob Waters: I’ve seen that. No, you’re not, whatever.
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Bob Waters: But using the Blue Dream analogy or the specific profile, it comes down to that. What am I looking for in terpenes? What qualities in the terpenes? What quality in the plant that’s going to be bringing these certain effect? And as we know, each strain carries these different levels and concentrations of different chemicals, and it comes down to chemicals. Blue Dream, it makes me feel good. It makes me comfortable.
Chris Holifield: Sure.
Bob Waters: And I love it, but I can find some of those similar effects in a different strain.
Chris Holifield: Just a personal favorite.
Bob Waters: Yeah. So that’s how I feel about that.
Chris Holifield: Just curious. It’s something we ask people.
Tim Pickett: It’s a favorite question of ours.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: What’s your favorite strain? Well, this has been a great conversation.
Chris Holifield: Yeah. I mean, we could probably keep going. I don’t know, what other topics should we cover with you, Bob? I don’t know.
Bob Waters: I smoked a joint with Eazy-E’s kid.
Tim Pickett: Eazy-E!
Chris Holifield: Let’s talk about that. I’m a fan of the Eazy-E guy.
Bob Waters: You remember because it started with I told you why I got involved in cannabis.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, yeah.
Bob Waters: I got involved in cannabis because I wanted to have an opportunity to smoke a joint with-
Chris Holifield: Tommy Chong.
Bob Waters: Well, not Tommy Chong, it was Dr. Dre.
Chris Holifield: Oh, Dr. Dre.
Tim Pickett: Oh yeah, that’s right. It was Dr. Dre.
Bob Waters: Yeah, I did, because I like gangster rap. I’m a gangster rap fan.
Chris Holifield: I love it.
Bob Waters: Any who. Where else, if you’re a fan of gangster rap, where else or who else would you rather be smoking a blunt with-
Chris Holifield: Than Dr. Dre.
Bob Waters: Or Dr. Dre. Well, Eazy-E.
Chris Holifield: Eazy-E.
Tim Pickett: Eazy-E is pretty good.
Bob Waters: Eazy-E rest in peace, right? Eazy-E’s son.
Chris Holifield: So how did you talk … How did you get connected?
Tim Pickett: That’s kind of cool.
Chris Holifield: How did you find out he was his son? I mean, what-
Tim Pickett: It’s so funny. I could probably recite some of those songs from when I was a kid, Eazy-E.
Bob Waters: It’s beautiful. Well, I had the luxury of being introduced to Lil Eazy-E, and E3, and Big A. I got introduced to them through a company called Nugo. I had the opportunity to work with them for about six months. It’s a tech company, and they’re part of Rich & Ruthless Records. They were doing work together at the time. I put together a magazine for them.
Chris Holifield: Very cool.
Bob Waters: It was all great stuff, they’re a great company. Good people, and it was a wonderful experience. It really was cool.
Tim Pickett: That’s cool.
Bob Waters: That’s the story of my life. I survived a volcanic eruption, I’ve been in a volcanic eruption.
Chris Holifield: Like a real one.
Bob Waters: Like a real one.
Chris Holifield: A real volcano, not the volcano that you smoke out of.
Bob Waters: No, no. No vaporizer. No, we could go for days, but that’s funny.
Tim Pickett: Eazy-E, Chong.
Chris Holifield: Dude, that is so cool. I mean, I would ask you, I mean, do you want to get involved more in the industry at all or are you kind of happy the way it is what you’re doing right now just as a patient or what? Where do you see yourself going with all of this?
Bob Waters: Well, but first and foremost obviously I want to home grow, some type of home grow open up. I’m not beyond it being very restrictive because I think that there’s value, there’s a connection and value with growing your own food. Your own medicine is your own crop, your own, there’s a value to that. I think that’s really tied to a right that I should have. I think that’s being a little too restrictive. It can be ruled, it can be governed. Other states are doing it, it’s not that hard. They’re not going to lose money either. Most people don’t want a stinky plant growing in their house.
Tim Pickett: No.
Bob Waters: And even in the backyard, they can … It’s very aromatic, right? I enjoy it, but not everyone is situated, or if I’m next to a church, you don’t want somebody growing 30 plants on their backyard right next to a schoolyard.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Bob Waters: You don’t want that. So it needs to be controlled because humans need to be controlled unfortunately. That seems to be the case anyways. So just going back to that, that’s something I’d like to see something.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Bob Waters: Home grow, that’s important to me.
Chris Holifield: Any other questions for him, Tim, or should we wrap this episode up?
Tim Pickett: Not right now. We’ll bring you back around.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: When the laws change, Bob.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, I mean, any final words?
Tim Pickett: And when the union gets up and running.
Bob Waters: If anyone … We’ll see. There’s a Cannabis Patient Union, it’s on Instagram. People can find it if they want to follow.
Tim Pickett: Is it Utah Cannabis Patients Union?
Bob Waters: No, just cannabis patient.
Chris Holifield: On Instagram you said?
Tim Pickett: Cannabis Patient Union.
Bob Waters: Just follow me.
Chris Holifield: That’s how people can get ahold of you too if they wanted, right?
Bob Waters: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Bob Waters: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Bob Waters: Absolutely. And we’ll see, we’ll see what happens. People have to be willing to register, people have to be willing to partake. It’s going to take some early adapters I think initially, and some people willing to risk taking some chances. I unfortunately think that the lack of interest is going to be from the legislative side.
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Bob Waters: They’ll shut us down. We’re creating an insurance company.
Tim Pickett: Essentially yeah, it’s what the union would do with this membership type program and everybody involved.
Bob Waters: Yeah. So that’s why I think it just came down to lack of interest.
Tim Pickett: What’s your handle on Instagram?
Bob Waters: Bob’s 420 world.
Tim Pickett: Bob’s 420 world.
Chris Holifield: Oh, that’s you. I know you. I follow you.
Bob Waters: Yes, that’s me.
Chris Holifield: Bob’s 420, that’s you.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, oh yeah. Absolutely.
Chris Holifield: Okay, okay, okay. Well, it’s good to meet you.
Bob Waters: Hi, a pleasure.
Chris Holifield: It’s so cool. Yeah, so reach out to Bob, get in touch with him.
Bob Waters: Yeah, please do.
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Let him know you heard him on Utah in the Weeds. Let him know you heard this episode.
Bob Waters: Absolutely will, and I’ve been a little lazy to be truthful. We’ve been distracted by afraid of dying from COVID. I got to focus a little more on it.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, yeah.
Bob Waters: And I’ll put a push and let people know about the podcast here. I think this is great, and then we’ll see if we get some people interested we can move forward. I’ve had some interest from the growers. I’ve had-
Tim Pickett: I mean, we’re definitely interested and we have locations, a lot of places, going to St. George, going to … We’ll be in the areas where people need the medical side of it and the recommendations, and the talking to people like what they could try. All of that medical and education side we are 100% onboard for to help with that system, because I agree. I agree that revenue is fuel.
Bob Waters: Oh, let’s get together because I also want to make sure that we’re protecting you and what you’ve built.
Tim Pickett: Right, right.
Bob Waters: You’ve done some great stuff here.
Tim Pickett: Well, like you said in the very, very beginning. I mean, revenue is fuel, and you have to have fuel or else you can’t keep the lights.
Bob Waters: That’s correct.
Tim Pickett: Right?
Bob Waters: That’s absolutely correct.
Tim Pickett: But there is a growing number of people in this state who need help, right?
Bob Waters: Well, let’s do it. Let’s help them.
Chris Holifield: Let’s do it, guys. Really quick. I know we mentioned at the beginning how people get ahold of you Tim, but let’s run down that list real fast.
Tim Pickett: Really just utahmarijuana.org/podcast, that’s where the podcast lives. If you need to get ahold of us, utahmarijuana.org, that’s the best place to get ahold of me.
Chris Holifield: And reach out to either Tim or myself if you’re interested in coming on the podcast, patients, doctors, growers, whatever. If you’re involved at all in the industry, even if you’ve never been on a podcast, right?
Tim Pickett: Oh yeah.
Chris Holifield: Most of the people that come through, I’m sure Bob this is your first time coming on a podcast no, or you’ve been on a podcast?
Bob Waters: No, this is my first time being on a podcast.
Chris Holifield: You are a pro, man.
Bob Waters: Yeah. I was on Money TV once.
Chris Holifield: Okay, okay.
Bob Waters: I had a suit and tie, you never would’ve recognized me.
Tim Pickett: So funny.
Chris Holifield: So reach out, leave a review, and then go listen to my other podcast, I Am Salt Lake, and then everybody will be happy.
Tim Pickett: All right, everybody.
Bob Waters: I Am Salt Lake, I know that. I know that.
Tim Pickett: Thanks Bob.
Bob Waters: All right, you’re welcome.
Tim Pickett: Stay safe out there everybody.
Bob Waters: Thank you.
Cannabis patient Justin Wright is your typical family man. He goes to work, earns a paycheck, and loves his wife and son. He uses cannabis to manage chronic pain that lingers as a result of injuries sustained in a 2001 bike accident. His conversation with Tim and Chris in episode 44 of Utah in the Weeds offers a good look into the life of the average Utah cannabis patient.
Like so many others, Wright was afraid to try Medical Cannabis due to his experience growing up in the late 1980s and early 90s. But he eventually reached the point where managing his chronic pain with ibuprofen wasn’t cutting it. [02:52] The pain was making him irritable. It was harming his family life. To Wright’s surprise, his mother recommended he see a QMP about starting Medical Cannabis.
Wright has been a steady user for a year now. Throughout the podcast, he talked about the various strains he uses and how he takes them. [08:19] He also discussed tolerance with Tim and Chris. His doctor educated him on the issue; he learned more about it through his own research. He now utilizes a monthly 72-hour fast to control his tolerance. [16:44]
Throughout the podcast, both Tim and Chris were impressed by Wright’s attitude toward Medical Cannabis. They asked him about how it helps him at work. [30:04] They talked about how his family life has improved since he started using. [14:56] The trio even covered the sensitive topic of using at home when children are present. [32:58]
Episode 44 is a fascinating discussion that would benefit anyone who wants to learn what Medical Cannabis is like for the average patient. As a family man and software engineer in his late 30s, Justin Wright is an excellent example of your average patient using Medical Cannabis to relieve chronic pain.
Chris Holified: All right. Let’s welcome everybody out today to a brand new episode of Utah in the Weeds. This is episode 44 and my name is Chris Holifield.
Tim Pickett: And I’m Tim Pickett, a medical cannabis expert with Utahmarijuana.org. And you can find our podcast at utahmarijuana.org/podcast. Today, Chris, we talk to Justin Wright, a cannabis patient, super great conversation. And what struck me was, he’s really just a family man, a software developer, and he talks a lot about finding your way to cannabis from traditional medicine. It was just a good conversation.
Chris Holified: What I really liked is the advice he gave to people that might be on the fence of trying cannabis. Talks about the importance of just at least giving it a try. He talks about tolerance, which is something.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. He talks a lot about how he was very concerned about tolerance and overusing cannabis and what his program is like to keep his tolerance low and keep his costs down. And you know what? A shout out to Corey Anden, Dr. Anden up in Ogden, it sounds like she is his physician and did a great job at educating him. Anyway, I’m excited for people to listen to this interview.
Chris Holified: Yeah. And he’s a listener of the podcast. So that was fun to bring a listener on the podcast and kind of hear what they had to say about it. So give this podcast episode a listen, reach out to Tim, Utahmarijuana.org, if you have any questions about cannabis, I know the website, you guys got lots of blog articles there as well. And then you can listen to my other podcast, I am Salt Lake at, Iamsaltlake.com, but call our voicemail number up as well, (385) 215-9557. That is the Utah in the Weeds voicemail number. We would love it if you called in, maybe you have a question about cannabis. Maybe you want to know when a new a pharmacy is opening up. Maybe you want to know where Tim shops and buys all of his cool glasses. I don’t know.
Tim Pickett: That’s right. Or get some swag, some Utah in the Weeds swag.
Chris Holified: Oh yeah, there we go. There we go. I don’t have anything else to say about Justin. Should we jump into the conversation?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, Justin Wright everybody.
Chris Holified: All right. Enjoy the conversation.
…
Justin Wright: It’s like I told my wife I’m going to be on a podcast because I smoke pot and she was like, that’s awesome. Well, I don’t smoke it.
Tim Pickett: That’s a really good place to start. I told my wife, I was going to be on the podcast because I smoke pot.
Chris Holified: Well, should we start with her or should we start right at the beginning of what got you into — The levels sound good.
Justin Wright: Sure.
Chris Holified: We’re ready to rock and roll here. So let’s start right with you. When did you get introduced to cannabis for the first time? Were you younger? Was it recreational or was it medicine?
Justin Wright: So I experimented once or twice in high school, didn’t really have a good experience. So I just kind of moved from that point. It wasn’t until 2019, November 2019 when I was just about had it with my issues. I suffer from chronic neck pain, from a bike accident back in 2001 and I landed headfirst and my helmet saved my life. So after that point, my life was never the same. It always kind of, I remember I was listening to Dave Matthews, Busted Stuff album for the first time I got out of my bed and I felt crooked, it was the most gnarliest feeling. Something feels off and my eyes were cloudy and my mom, she correlated to the bike accident. So from a young age, from 22 and stuff, I was in and out of chiropractors, massage therapists, physical therapy, all that kind of stuff. And when I became a college student, you’re young, so I didn’t really take it too serious. I was just popping ibuprofen all the time. And I got married and things were good, but we noticed our relationship was just degrading and I was always irritated.
Chris Holified: Your relationship with your wife?
Justin Wright: Yeah. I would snap and get irritated. After my 30s, that’s when we noticed that something was off with me. We know now that I probably was just dealing with pain, your body becomes so accustomed to just dealing with.
Chris Holified: It becomes normal.
Justin Wright: Yeah, it becomes normal. And I would wake up in the morning and I feel okay some of the times. And then you’d go throughout the day and just sitting, writing code or doing whatever. By the end of the day, all I’m doing is just laying on a neck roller playing video games trying to relieve pressure from my neck. And so by 2019 November, I about hadn’t, just venting to my mom about how bad this sucks. And she was the one that poked me. She was like, I was browsing around with cannabis and I noticed that there was this Dr. Anden in Ogden, I think you should go check her out. And that’s what started it. So I never even entertained the thought of using cannabis. And so I started researching it and I was skeptical. My whole impression that it was a kid of the 90s. So there was propaganda, marijuana is going to make you dumb. It’s going to screw you up for life.
Tim Pickett: I still have that pamphlet.
Chris Holified: You’re going to be doing heroin.
Tim Pickett: How old are you?
Justin Wright: I’ll be 39 this month.
Chris Holified: So you say similar to us.
Tim Pickett: Similar high school stuff. I still have the pamphlet that my kids are going to be deformed. It’s going to be the monster.
Justin Wright: The Harold and Kumar movies. Marijuana kills. And they’re just laughing. After my first time using cannabis, I could finally relate to that movie because I’m like, yeah, dude, I was lied to as a child.
Chris Holified: Don’t you feel so upset after you’ve been lied to, especially with cannabis. I’m like, come on man. This is what I’ve been lied to?
Tim Pickett: Of all the things you could lie to me about, this is what you chose?
Justin Wright: It was night and day difference the first time I tried it, but yeah, so I explored it. I set up an appointment and I went to go see her in January 2020. And let me tell you, that was a life changing event because COVID just hit. And once COVID hit, I couldn’t go to a chiropractor. I couldn’t go to a massage therapist. I was developing digestive problems because I was taking so much ibuprofen. My doctor I was seeing when I mentioned maybe looking into medical cannabis and stuff, she was like, Oh no, just drink milk and you’ll be fine with ibuprofen and stuff. And at that point I was like, really?
Tim Pickett: That’s not good advice.
Justin Wright: Yeah, man. So I went to a Dr. Anden and she was like an angel. Her whole entire staff was very professional. And I had no idea what to expect. You’re going to a weed doctor or something.
Chris Holified: Oh, she’s great.
Tim Pickett: She’s great. And her office is nice. It’s in a professional building. And she’s been doing physical rehab medicine for a long, long time.
Justin Wright: Yes. There was nothing but positive experience visiting her for the first time. And she really takes care of her patients throughout the whole entire Utah laws changing and everything like that. I know it’s been really hectic on her staff and patients alone not knowing what’s going on. And so it was really good to kind of feel I was under her wing kind of thing. And I wasn’t bad for using this. And she actually teaches her patients how to use it correctly. When I went in there, I’m like, so do I smoke it because to be honest with you, I don’t really like smoking marijuana. It has a really harsh vape that burns my throat and they instructed all types of different forms of how to use it, how much that kind of stuff. And so I went to Wendover right after her visit and went shopping and then came home.
Justin Wright: And I remember I tried, what strain was it? It was a cart. It was a vape cart. And it was blue dream. And immediately when I did that, it felt like I was 20 years old again. And I was standing up straight and it was like, because sometimes you’d go to a chiropractor and they adjust you in everything and you feel good afterwards, the pressure goes away and everything, but you get right back in your car and you turn the wrong way or something and your bones go. And then you’re like, wow, 60 bucks down the drain. Here I’m paying 60 bucks for 3.5 grams. And it lasts me for a week and a half, two weeks.
Chris Holified: Oh, wow. You can get it to last you a while.
Justin Wright: So after Dr. Anden I started YouTube and stuff. And I found out Dynavap. And although Utah law is very strict on combustion and you can’t use flames. Dynavap came out with this little induction electric heater that you can use with the Dynavap pens. And so that’s become my daily driver because I can set that down to 0.05 grams per bowl, and I can get three or four charges out of that and totally extract so much out of my herb. It’s awesome. And it doesn’t get you, sometimes man, I’ve used the tiny mite and one hit with that thing, it was like, it sent me, I was couch locked but with this micro dosing, I feel like I’m really productive.
Chris Holified: Nice. Do you have a favorite strain or what are you enjoying?
Justin Wright: Yeah dude. So I tend to try to just buy a variety of strains because I noticed that your body builds up tolerance to different strains over time. So that’s why I’ve always been hesitant to buy one ounce of just one strain or something. So I tried one that I got in Wendover called Connor’s Comfort, and I think it’s almost borderline of a type two because it has a very high CBD, almost 1:1 ratio. And that kind of got me experimenting with, I got some CBD from a farm up in Oregon. What are they called? Shoot.
Chris Holified: It doesn’t matter.
Justin Wright: Anyways. So I started blending some CBD in with the THC to kind of remove the heady effects sometimes. But Connor’s Comfort’s a really good strain. Right now, I’m really digging White 99 that I got in Beehive pharmacy. And then they also have the purple Afghan Kush. Those two strains are really good. The only other strain that really stands out that I really liked was lemon cake that I got in Wendover. That one was cool.
Chris Holified: So you got your license in November and then pharmacies started opening up here in March. Well, Dragonfly did. Have you found it to be pretty easy to get stuff here locally at the pharmacies?
Justin Wright: No, not at all. Several times I went up to Dragonfly and all they had was Carts and I stopped using Carts because there was a scare. So I started educating myself. And while I do believe that they’re safe, when you get them from Dragonfly Wellness or a reputable medical cannabis dispensary. I didn’t like how it felt in my lungs. I like to run. And so I noticed that I’d get pain in my lungs. So I stopped using those right away for me. And I’ve basically been just using dry flower.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. The Carts are high temp. They are high temp, more higher temperature than vaporizing flour. And then the additives. We just talked to Kyle and talking about the additives to the Carts and how they can build up in your lungs and cause some trouble. Has the lack of available flower gotten better? Do you feel like?
Justin Wright: Sorry. I’ve totally specified on the original question.
Chris Holified: No, I was just curious if you were finding hard to find flower.
Justin Wright: For all of 2020, it was a challenge. It was a race to the dispensary, who could get there first to get their flower. So I just basically said, you know what? Dr. Anden says, cool, if I go to Wendover. So I kind of avoided the dispensary’s for almost six months here. And I just made runs to Wendover, Deep Roots Harvest, really nice dispensary. And they took care of me. But now that these last two times I hit up Beehive pharmacy.
Tim Pickett: They’re great.
Justin Wright: Yeah. They’re great.
Tim Pickett: I like the vibe down there. It just, I don’t know. I like Dragonfly, I like them all. But Beehive definitely is one of my favorites.
Justin Wright: Dragonflies Sunday driver is —
Tim Pickett: It’s the favorite of 2020.
Justin Wright: I always have to put in Beatles and listen to that. But Beehive pharmacy, I think it’s Beehive and Dragonfly are my two go-tos.
Chris Holified: And I was going to say, which one is your main, but I guess you because you probably have a card obviously letters aren’t totally, I mean, you can go anywhere now, that’s the beautiful thing.
Justin Wright: We just moved up to this Millcreek area six months ago. And so it’s really easy to get to either one of those right now.
Chris Holified: You moved out from Utah County, right?
Justin Wright: Yeah.
Chris Holified: Was that, was that tough being a cannabis user in Utah County?
Justin Wright: It was a secret.
Chris Holified: It’d be a secret most places, I guess. I mean, sadly, but I was just curious if you ran into any obstacles in Utah County, even though, we’ve talked about there’s more patients in Utah County.
Justin Wright: There are, there still are more patients in Utah County than there are here.
Tim Pickett: As far as legal cannabis users.
Justin Wright: As far as legal cannabis users. Yeah. So I didn’t really have much of an issue because at that time I was just going to Wendover. So I’d just wake up on a Friday or Saturday morning and go and then come back. And my wonderful neighbors never even knew. I was just this little.
Chris Holified: And that’s the way it should be, private anyway.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, you’re just this family man.
Justin Wright: It’s until people can actually throw away all of the negative vibes that are associated with this, that I feel like we’re the ones that have to be in the closet. It’s kind of weird. I was talking to someone at Dr. Anden’s office. I remember having this conversation. I can’t remember who, but she said we shouldn’t have to be ashamed to use the flower. We should be more embarrassed if we’re using opioids or some kind of prescribed medicine. It’s kind of funny, people talk about using opioids like it’s no big deal.
Tim Pickett: You make a really good point. I can open a pill bottle. I can open a prescription pill bottle anywhere.
Justin Wright: And use it at work.
Tim Pickett: Yep. And use it at work. And there’s really, nobody’s going to look down on me for whatever prescription medication I have. I open a little jar of a cannabis flower, you can smell it. And then instantly, everybody knows and you just —
Chris Holified: Oh, Tim’s got weed.
Tim Pickett: Tim is grinding his weed.
Justin Wright: Yup. And then there’s the push of, I bet he’s a really kind of slacker kind of.
Tim Pickett: Right. Then, Oh, well for the next few hours, you’re going to be out. Right. You can’t work. You can’t function. You’re just going to be lazy. Do you find that with your family?
Chris Holified: Yeah. Let’s talk about family life.
Tim Pickett: What’s the family life?
Justin Wright: My marriage has never been better. 2020, I get it, it was not a good year. Lots of horrible things. Lots of unpredictable things happened, but on a personal level being quarantined. I have a friend that’s a lawyer and he said his divorce rates, his divorce clients have just skyrocketed this year. But me and my wife we’re just little lovebirds because my kid will basically be like, dad, you’re getting kind of cranky. I think you need to go take some medicine and I’ll go take a couple puffs here or there. And we’re just super chill. I can’t express how grateful I am for cannabis, because I couldn’t go to any other type of medical treatment for the longest time. And it’s also helped keep our house’s sanity, because I’m not irritated.
Tim Pickett: It sounds like you had almost a personality change because of the chronic pain.
Justin Wright: Yeah. So I kept on telling my wife because we almost got divorced a couple of times in our marriage and I told her I’m like, I remember just being the nice person. I don’t remember ever fighting this much. This is not me. And I feel like the true me has come through with using cannabis in moderation.
Chris Holified: So you feel it’s managing your pain then? Is that kind of what you’re?
Justin Wright: Very much so. It’s the best out of anything I’ve tried for the last 10 years. No, I’m sorry. 20, Oh my gosh I’m old. For the last 18 years, it’s probably been the number one most effective medicine. It’s also helped clear up all my digestive problems that ibuprofen, I’m not sure if I should say that.
Chris Holified: No, you sound like you’re dealing with some of the similar stuff I have. I took a lot of ibuprofen and stuff and it just damaged my gut, man. It just tore it up, man.
Justin Wright: It’s not good. But that has cleared up and my neck pain has cleared up. I have more patience, I feel like I’m way more productive. I’m worried about tolerance. So family life, this is something that I did notice and also, Oh, he just smoked a bowl or vaped a bowl, he’s going to be lazy. That’s not true. I do a 72 hour fast each month and I just use CBD.
Chris Holified: I tried, I remember reading that when you submitted to come on the podcast, I should be doing something like this. So how do you? Do you just pick three days you take off?
Justin Wright: Yeah. Cascadia Blooms, that’s the company. I have to be careful, I’ve tried different CBD products and nothing really ever to be honest with you, I don’t feel a thing with CBD, but Cascadia Bloom gives you actual nugs, like actual flowers of sour space, candy, or Hawaiian haze or whatever. And when you vape that CBD flower, you actually, I call it diet weed because it lasts for about 15 minutes to 30 minutes, if you’re lucky. And then the pain’s right back there. So for the 72 hours, man, I am probably having quite a few bowls a day of CBD.
Tim Pickett: Do you find that you lower your tolerance at the time or are you able to really just stay at the same use that you were before?
Justin Wright: I think the tolerance is slowly, still building up. I think if I took, because I’ve been using cannabis now every day for a year. So I think when I first had a couple of puffs, I felt like Towelie from South Park. Oh man, where am I?
Chris Holified: If that felt like Towelie from South Park then you were good.
Justin Wright: But now I have 0.1 grams and it’s like, I’m very relaxed. I’m not in pain, but it’s not like I got that heady, pink eye, I have no idea what’s going on kind of.
Tim Pickett: We talk about this once in a while, but this is important for people to understand that you need some tolerance or else you don’t function. If you’re going to be a chronic cannabis user, which is okay, because we have chronic pain, then you have to build up enough tolerance to support the habit. To be able to function with the therapy.
Justin Wright: I think it took about six months. I used to only have to be able to take one or two puffs. And then at that time I just had a mighty and so I’d have to quickly empty the chamber out otherwise it’s just going to bake your herb. But going back to the CBD thing, I would notice that I’d get nothing done at night. So for that 72 hour fast, you think, Oh, I might not because sometimes you still get caught off guard and you’ll get couch locked. And that’s just the name of the game I call it. And it’s not that bad. I just play Smash Bros with my son.
Tim Pickett: Or you become a really good listener.
Justin Wright: Yes. Oh my gosh. I feel like I listened to my kid so much better now because let’s face it. I’m 39, he’s 10. There’s not much you can have in-depth conversation with a ten-year-old. But when I’m using marijuana and he’s talking about Steve and Minecraft, I’m all there.
Chris Holified: This is the most exciting thing ever.
Tim Pickett: You’re saying all the things I’m thinking when I’m in my house.
Justin Wright: Yeah. But on the CBD fast, I’m doing everything I can not to get irritated because I do know that while they say there is no long-term or bad effects with marijuana when I’m off, it seems like I am a little bit more irritable, but that’s about it. I’m not going through withdrawals. It’s not like, Oh man, I got to take a hit. It’s more like, I really love cheeseburgers and I would like a cheeseburger right now, but there’s none at home so what if? I don’t get anything done. I’m on the neck roller every night when I’m not on marijuana.
Chris Holified: So why do you take a break then? Why not just keep going and just build that tolerance up?
Justin Wright: Well, one thing is, Dr. Anden’s, what do you call the doctor that’s the assistant to the doctor? I forgot what…
Tim Pickett: Careful here. Careful, that’s me. It’s the PA.
Justin Wright: Oh, I’m so sorry. I’m bad with —
Chris Holified: No, you’re going to give this guy a heart attack. He’s like, shit.
Tim Pickett: You’re totally fine. So she has a PA who works with her up at our clinic now? And she’s great?
Justin Wright: Yes.
Tim Pickett: And she uses Dr. Sulak from healer.com. They have a lot and I know Corey quite well. They have a tolerance breaking program, that Dr. Sulak teaches in his healer.com course. And it’s, take two days off, then start low. And she also has a really great staff up there in her office.
Justin Wright: So I was doing a week before I went back for my six month evaluation and she’s like, don’t do a week. You’re just going to be torturing yourself.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, a week is a little too far.
Justin Wright: They said 48 hours is good. But then she said, if you can get 72 in, it’s exponentially different. And I do notice a difference. So after the 72 hours, it’s like, I just need a small bowl for my Dynavap and I am good. But then the next day, we’re kind of getting back into.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. You build up a tolerance to the side effects pretty quick, especially because you’ve had all of this. All of the receptors in your body, they’re all jive and they’re ready to go. They know exactly what you’re giving them. And so, this is a great conversation because 72 hours a month is probably ideal. I don’t think most people could do that. In your situation where you have a real chronic pain issue and you need the THC to feel better.
Justin Wright: Sometimes just between you and me, my wife will be like, why don’t you just do 48 hours or 24 hours.
Chris Holified: She’s getting a motel room for those 72 hours.
Tim Pickett: Sulak, he talks about 48 hours and then starting back in, but really that’s only once. We talk in my clinics about once a quarter. Doing 48 hours fasting and then starting back with low doses to try to reevaluate what your therapeutic dose would be. But everybody does it a little different and simplifying it to 72 hours sounds like, I mean, it’s ideal. It’s pretty cool. You do get most of the benefit over the first 48 as far as the receptor activity.
Justin Wright: I would agree with you because sometimes I can’t make it to 72.
Tim Pickett: And then you can kind of go back and you can use the same amount. I find it really interesting that you’ve been doing this here. In other states, they call it THC creep where you increase your THC levels, the intake over time. And it’s multiple factors, the access to the dispensaries, your use. You’re just going to tend to use more.
Chris Holified: Once you’re sitting there.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, once you’re sitting there, one more hit. I’m not doing anything this afternoon, so maybe a couple more hits.
Justin Wright: Then you have to ask yourself the question, am I using it for medicine? Or I’m using it for recreational and I’m guilty. It’s tempting. There’s times where you’re like, Oh man, it’s Friday evening. I’ll take my medicine before bed, but then you stay up till whatever watching Netflix and then it wears off and you’re like, I guess I need to take some more.
Tim Pickett: And we choose strains based on not just pain control, but what you get from the plant. That experience, don’t we?
Chris Holified: Sure.
Justin Wright: Yes.
Tim Pickett: You were talking about strains, your favorite strains. And you’re like, Oh.
Justin Wright: Yeah. I go on Hytiva all the time. And I’ll find out what’s so special about this strain. And it’s exciting. I just tried one called lime marshmallow. And for once in my life I love that strain because it actually decreases my hunger. I don’t get the munchies with that one. And I can’t tell you the worst is the munchies. That’s the worst side effect of all.
Tim Pickett: Really? You’re a super skinny guy.
Justin Wright: Yeah. But I exercise like a beast. And plus with taking cannabis, it’s allowed me to do sports that I couldn’t use to be able to do. So I’m back into skateboarding and snowboarding and running.
Tim Pickett: Did you run a lot without cannabis?
Justin Wright: Off and on, but there’s times where I just couldn’t hack it. It was just like pounding into the pressure in my neck and my eyes. And I was just like, no, thank you.
Tim Pickett: Do you run now? Do you use cannabis when you run?
Justin Wright: Yes. I find that not only does it help with my neck, but I used to get runner’s knee where it might make pain, which just throb in my left knee. I have not had that for a year.
Chris Holified: That’s awesome.
Justin Wright: So take that as you wish.
Tim Pickett: Cannabis is a sports enhancing medication. When it comes to runners, especially right?
Chris Holified: Lifting weights too is nice. Before you go lift a little weight, boom.
Justin Wright: And it just puts you in the zone.
Tim Pickett: Right. You’re concentrating on what’s going on.
Justin Wright: Oh yeah.
Tim Pickett: You’re a little thirsty. So you’re a little bit more hydrated when you run, which is nice.
Chris Holified: Tell us about this blog you do. You started this blog, which is really cool. I haven’t had a lot of chance to read everything on there, but I think it’s cool that you started this.
Justin Wright: That’s okay. So back in Utah County, I really couldn’t talk to anybody. And when you take cannabis, I get kind of rambly. If you notice, when I filled out your form, it was just like.
Chris Holified: It was great though man. Because it gives us information to work with.
Justin Wright: Oh, cool. My wife’s like, why don’t you start a blog and so I did. I’m not really good at making movies or editing that kind of stuff. And I know people don’t really read blogs that much anymore, but it gave me an outlet. And so it was very healthy during COVID too. And so I started blogging my whole entire experience. And then I started getting into blogging about the different strains. And I think I’m going to take that blog and try to turn it into an online comic with me in a kind of a fictional setting, because I also like to draw. I’m a software developer by nature, but I have this passion for the arts. And so I think it’s a healthy outlet because there’s not that many people to talk about the wonders of cannabis with.
Chris Holified: I could imagine, I’ve actually had this discussion with my wife because my wife’s the same way. She’s like, I want to connect with all these people but it’s hard because you can’t really just go out onto your public Facebook and just blast it out because you know, I mean, you can’t.
Tim Pickett: We all essentially live in Utah County.
Chris Holified: I don’t think any state. I think any state you’re going to run into the same problem. I mean, even in California where it’s full adult recreational, I’m sure you’re still going to get into a little bit of problems of going online, but you want to find your tribe. You want to find your people that you can talk with that are dealing with this stuff that you’re dealing with. Had people reached out to you at all?
Justin Wright: I’ve had three people reach out to me and ask, how did I get started? This was at the very beginning, since then, not so much. But it was really great to interact with those people. Some of them had actual yes, I have chronic pain. And I know that almost sometimes people say that’s a cop-out symptom to use with this, but hearing some other people’s life stories was very humbling. And I was like, Oh man, cannabis can totally help these people.
Chris Holified: Sure. But do you want to get on the highest mountain and tell everybody about it? You’re like, I should and then you’re like, I can’t, and it’s the worst.
Justin Wright: That’s why to be invited on this podcast was such a dream come true. I get to talk with two cool guys about cannabis for once in this, it’s therapy.
Tim Pickett: You’ve been listening to the podcast too for a while, right?
Justin Wright: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: How did you find it? How did you find the podcast?
Justin Wright: How did I find the podcast? I was honestly just, my Instagram feed for my blog is just filled with all kinds of different cannabis, whatever. And I think it just popped up on my home screen one day, Utah in the Weeds. I’m like, that’s got to be cannabis. And so I clicked on it and I found out it’s a podcast and then I searched and then I found out I was looking so I subscribed to it on Google’s podcasts. And then I saw the one that you guys interviewed Dr. Anden. I’m like, I got to listen to that. And then I was hooked. And so, yeah. And then you also did I think Cole Fullmer, Salt Baked City. And there’s a few other, there was another patient that you were talking to and he was experimenting with CBD.
Chris Holified: His name was Zack. Was it Zach King?
Justin Wright: Yeah.
Chris Holified: He’s in a little bit mixing and all that.
Tim Pickett: I’m always fascinated when people do this because we talk about it all the time in clinic with patients and how you can really get into experimenting, but we tend to spend a lot of time just on the basics. How to find a dose, how to build up a tolerance frankly, is a big discussion.
Chris Holified: Yeah, people use it and then they forget. They’re like you in high school, you just don’t have a good experience, get a little paranoid. You don’t feel good. You’re dizzy.
Justin Wright: First, you don’t know that cannabis was coming from.
Chris Holified: Part is a lot of the black market stuff. I mean, it could be mold. It could be, you don’t know what the —
Tim Pickett: It could have pesticides.
Chris Holified: And that causes, I mean, you were mentioning, GI problems. Mold and stuff like that can cause a lot of stuff for people because I deal with a lot of the same stuff. Can we talk a little bit about the software you develop? What’s your job like?
Justin Wright: Oh yeah. We can talk about that. So, I’ve done everything from e-commerce to health apps. Currently, I work for an HR company and so I’m kind of in charge of the timekeeping software. And while that sounds really boring, it’s actually really fun. Every day I get to wake up in place like homes and try to solve another problem within the code. And so I’m very careful to obey my work policies and the programmers work more than eight hours a day. And I find in the night times when I’m clocked out of work, I will be using cannabis at that point. And I find, I have such a higher focus on the code. I’ve been doing this now for a long time, so it’s easy to get burned out and you’re just like going through the motions and you don’t want to do it. And then you’re looking at Facebook or something like that. But when I’m on the cannabis, it’s just kind of like, I’m listening to good music and I’m just zoned in. And so I find that that helps me when I have to work over time.
Tim Pickett: Did you find that you have to find strains that work for that?
Justin Wright: Yes.
Tim Pickett: It seems to me some strains just make me stupid.
Justin Wright: Yes. You have to be very careful. So White 99 is a really good one for me to stay focused on work. But if I took something like, I had this one very powerful strain, I think it was Wookie. I got Wookie and that one made me really just, I was couch locked and then I had another one called Black Flag. And that one just sedated me. So you have to be very careful with your strains.
Tim Pickett: We talked bout this earlier, buying a little bit. Buying an eighth, buying three and a half grams trying it out. Don’t go buy an ounce.
Justin Wright: No. And you know what? There’s so many strains to go around. I would encourage people just to buy one ounce in one eighth jars. That’s what I do. Because every jar is a new prize.
Chris Holified: I like this guy.
Tim Pickett: I do too.
Chris Holified: It has a little toy inside.
Tim Pickett: It’s like, Oh, it’s like Christmas.
Justin Wright: And then the other thing I would encourage people because I have a friend that he says, he’s very pro combustion. And while that is kind of illegal in Utah, it’s kind of still the de facto people like, Oh, you smoke pot for medicine. They don’t think there’s any other way to take it. But with vaping, man, you can get so many flavor extractions. And so that’s the other fun thing with just buying in one eighth, this one tastes like bubblegum. This one tastes like blueberries. And so it’s kind of like Willy Wonka’s magical factory.
Chris Holified: So your family supportive of it? And what about your friends and stuff like that? They’re pretty supportive too or have you found it kind of causing problems with anybody?
Justin Wright: There’s a few of my friends that know that I use it, but for the most part it’s mom’s the word.
Chris Holified: Yeah, mom’s the word. I get you.
Tim Pickett: And you’ve got a young child.
Justin Wright: He’s 10. And he is kind of funny. He’ll go to school. And I think he’s almost at the age where they start doing the dare programs and stuff. And I’m like, don’t say anything.
Tim Pickett: I know, we have the same conversation at my house too. We thread a needle, I feel like, especially in this state even, maybe everybody does with the, what to say what to do around the kids, what to include them on and what not to. And that’s new charted territory. Do you feel like you’re —
Justin Wright: Yes.
Tim Pickett: There is no book, there’s no norm for what to include kids on and what not to.
Justin Wright: No. And I ask myself, what is my son going to think when he is a teenager and he knows that his dad is basically a pot head or a chronic user of cannabis, to say it nicely.
Tim Pickett: But that’s the truth. I mean we use, and you say pothead, but Chris and I we’ll use whatever term you want. You want to call it weed, pot, cannabis. It doesn’t really matter.
Justin Wright: I think you got to embrace culture.
Tim Pickett: Totally. And you’ve got to be more inclusive, but I get the same thing. I’ve got a high schooler and I wonder when, I don’t think she’s been to a party yet, especially with COVID that there’s been cannabis there, but it’s coming.
Chris Holified: And I’m sure it’ll be placed in a different light at that party.
Tim Pickett: Exactly.
Chris Holified: Because it’s more of the recreation. It’s more of that.
Tim Pickett: Sure. And it’s illegal for them to have it and it would be illegal for her to try it at the time.
Justin Wright: Do you think she would be tempted to try it? You think she’s like, I know what this stuff is. I see my dad use it all the time. This is something I don’t need to.
Tim Pickett: So interestingly in my house, I don’t show my children that I use in that way. I don’t know why, I’ve been struggling with this for a year.
Justin Wright: I didn’t know if that’s illegal or not.
Tim Pickett: No, it’s not illegal to use.
Justin Wright: Because I thought using it in front of a minor is illegal.
Chris Holified: I don’t know.
Tim Pickett: Definitely, it would be at least a gray area. We need to ask JD about that. That’s a good.
Chris Holified: Let us know JD, if you’re listening.
Tim Pickett: JD, text me, will you?
Justin Wright: I’ve tried to basically use it only in my work den. And I’ll just say, I’m going to go take my medicine, but he has busted in several times. And he’s like, dad, you got to check out this. I downloaded this off of this. And I’m like, Oh no, you’re downloading stuff on the computer.
Tim Pickett: My kids did the same thing, they’re like, dad, well, what time do you want to go? Go at 420, dad. I get these gifts once in a while. I got a mug with a wake and bake mug and it’s got a little bowl and you could actually use it.
Chris Holified: I got that same mug.
Tim Pickett: Did you use the purple?
Chris Holified: Mine’s green. And my kids are like, ah, ha ha. That’s just so funny. I have some matter horn CBG flower in my office. And it’s such a weird, I don’t know. It’s weird to me.
Tim Pickett: It’s normal, right?
Chris Holified: It’s not normal to me because we didn’t grow up like that. But at the same time, I know people who are totally open. They got jars of weed on the counter with their kids around and that’s normal to them.
Justin Wright: It’s still kind of like gray area. I don’t want to cross that line where all of a sudden child services is knocking on my door or something.
Chris Holified: I think a lot of people don’t realize. When I first started using cannabis 20 years ago, I was using it more out in the open with my buddies and stuff because they did. I didn’t know we weren’t supposed to. You hear, Oh, you’re not supposed to it’s against the law, but you also hear, you’re not supposed to go through a red light and you do once in a while. So I just thought, Oh, I’m with my buddies and can smoke a joint. And we would just be out at a concert or we would be out for a drive. I didn’t think, and I’ve run into people nowadays that are the same way. They’re just like, I didn’t realize there was that many consequences with cannabis.
Tim Pickett: We’ve got to get a little bit more educated, it sounds like all of us on the legalities. On the other hand, legal issues aside, it’s still just a weird space.
Chris Holified: I have a liquor cabinet. I have cannabis in the house. You know what, where do I fit? You can mix a drink in front of your four year old.
Justin Wright: When I was a kid, I had a friend growing up and his mom would drink beer in front of us all the time. It’s like, so what’s the difference with using a plant?
Tim Pickett: This is the exact conversation we have at our house because we all — I’ll have a mixed drink at my house in front of my children. I don’t think that’s wrong.
Chris Holified: Nobody even thinks anything of it.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. Nobody thinks anything of it. My kids know you’re not old enough to drink. You can’t try it. You can’t touch it.
Justin Wright: I told my kid, I said, I have a purpose to be using this plant. I am above the age of 21 and therefore I’m legal to use it. You can’t use this stuff. And he’s like, I don’t want your stinks.
Tim Pickett: But see, there’s a great conversation. Guns in the house, alcohol in the house, cannabis in the house, teaching your children about it, about what’s right, what’s wrong, why you use it? Normalizing it, de-stigmatize it.
Justin Wright: Yeah. He doesn’t think it’s some taboo anymore. He actually thinks that’s what makes my dad cool. He’s no longer angry dad, he’s cool.
Chris Holified: Do you ever worry though? One thing I worry about with kids is if they would say, tell their friends, my parents use marijuana and then their parents finding and then maybe the kids would be ostracized and kind of like, Oh, they got bad parents. I don’t want my kids to associate with these kids.
Tim Pickett: We’re going to get to that. We’re going to get to them because I mean, already we live in Utah, where if you drink —
Chris Holified: I run into that issue. We run into that already.
Justin Wright: My kids can’t play with your kids because my you drink.
Tim Pickett: Well, you’ve got alcohol in the house. I mean, if they knew that I had liquor in the cabinet, I’m sure there’d be some people who wouldn’t want their kids to come over.
Justin Wright: Luckily I haven’t really crossed that road because of COVID. Everyone’s kind of like whatever. But that is something that concerns me, what happens with that?
Tim Pickett: I know we’re headed in the right direction though. Think about 10 years ago, you wouldn’t have had these conversations with your kids. And now my kids know it’s a legitimate medicine. We use it for a bunch of different stuff, they understand. They’ll find something in the house and they’re like, Oh, here dad, here’s the battery.
Justin Wright: Yeah. The only thing that I have concerns with is, what happens when my kid is old enough, I’m not home and he brings his friends home and they find the weed. Am I the one that’s legally accountable for that?
Tim Pickett: Probably.
Justin Wright: Probably. So I’m thinking I probably need to get a safe.
Tim Pickett: Safe, lockable bags, keep it away from everybody. Do not have too much too.
Chris Holified: A lot of the — I know you sell them here. Do you still sell them here?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, we sell a ton of them, a lockable skunk bag. It’s a carbon lined bag. So it doesn’t smell, you put flower in it, anything. And it’s got a simple luggage lock. Now, you hit it with a hammer, it’s going to come open. But just having it in the lock.
Chris Holified: Just in the lock and then you can even put in something a little more secure if you want.
Justin Wright: Well, this way, if someone does break it in, you can at least say, look, I did my due diligence to make sure.
Tim Pickett: And that’s what we try to encourage people, don’t have a ton around and have it in a locked container. This is where the medicine resides in the house. Then all the kids know. That’s the medicine bag.
Justin Wright: I still think that it’s sad that we have to do that when grandma’s opioids are in the medicine cabinet.
Chris Holified: You should be locking those up too. I mean, shoot. I knew kids back in the day that used to raid people’s medicine cabinets and take the good stuff.
Tim Pickett: Every time they’d go to anybody’s house, they were always stealing pills.
Chris Holified: What would you tell somebody, let’s say somebody’s listening and they’re kind of on the fence of getting their medical card, right? They’re like, should I get my medical card? Should I call Tim up and get my card? They’re nervous so maybe, would you give them any words of advice? What would you tell them?
Justin Wright: That is such a good question. Yeah, because when I first had the conversations with my wife, she was crying. Because she’s from Japan and marijuana is called timeout there and it’s way illegal, way stricter than here. And so she was like, why would you want to do something like that? And so eventually, I think everyone has to come to a crossroads to say, where am I going to go? Because current traditional Western medicine, isn’t cutting it for me. So what do you have to lose if you follow by the rules? Cannabis, I think can be a wonderful medicine. And I’d say give it a try. I probably quote Chong from Cheech & Chong to say, “I now look at medicines and I think that’s a drug, and I look at my plant and I say, that’s my medicine.” I’d say give it a try. I don’t think it’s for everybody. But I think you’d be doing yourself the biggest favor by saying, yeah, let’s go try it out at least once to see if this helps me with my problem.
Tim Pickett: Well said.
Chris Holified: Oh yeah. I’m glad I asked. Do you have any favorite off the top of your head? I know we didn’t ask this before you came in. So if you don’t have anything, that’s fine. But do you have any websites that you like to go to that you like to educate yourself with? Because you sound you’ve really educated yourself and learning about it. Any recommendations off the top of your head that you would tell somebody to go to?
Justin Wright: Let me answer that question. The websites that I go to on a daily basis would be, Leafly, and Hytiva, but then I also will scour medical journals. I got my master’s in instructional design and technology. And the only thing I learned from that school was actually how to read pure reviewed journals.
Chris Holified: That’s awesome.
Tim Pickett: It’s a skill not a lot of people have.
Justin Wright: I’ve been researching terpenoids, terpenes and cannabinoids because I always had an interest in the tolerance. So I’ve been scouring those sites, but I think for the day to day generals, the best source to go to is there is a book called The Medical Cannabis Guide. And I can’t remember the author. She’s a doctor who was actually on I think, don’t quote me on this because I was probably medicated when reading this, but I think she was from California. And she worked for the law, the department of justice busting druggies. And she had no mercy for cannabis users and her whole entire perspective got turned around and she wrote this incredible book and it talks about the history back in 1937, getting the medical cannabis tax and how a nylon was coming out. And they were afraid that that like cannabis, hemp was going to destroy their industry.
Justin Wright: So basically she explains the whole history, how government and money is what basically made cannabis illegal. And then she goes on with the medical benefits and she says, this state has for these reasons and these reasons. Utah’s, I feel bad for Utah because the amount of criteria to be accepted as a cannabis user is so small, but she talks about all these other problems, conditions that it can truly help with. And the only reason why the medical field moved away, I think it was, was his name. Dr. Woodward? In 1944, he went on record and said, the only reason why they moved away from cannabis is it’s so hard to prescribe the right amount, and pills kind of made that easy. So yeah, that book right there, if you really want to get educated, that’s a good read.
Chris Holified: Do you ever see yourself doing something more with the cannabis industry? You’re in the software industry.
Justin Wright: I remember when Dragonfly Wellness said they were hiring and I went and I looked to see what they were hiring for and they didn’t have anything open for software, but I sent my resume anyway. I’m like, dude, I would love to work on your website, but I never heard back. If the opportunity rose, it would be a dream.
Chris Holified: I think that would be that way for all of us and Tim lucked out and he started this whole thing.
Justin Wright: Yeah, man, you guys are living the dream. That’s a cool t-shirt by the way.
Tim Pickett: Oh, yeah. This is a, healthcare to buzz about, t-shirt the Utahmarijuana.org t-shirt. It’s super cool. It’s got a couple of bees and the THC molecule what looks like a honeycomb. This has been awesome.
Chris Holified: I appreciate you doing the podcast with us. Do you have any other questions for us? I know we covered a lot of what you’re probably involved with cannabis. Is there anything that you were hoping we would talk about that we haven’t had a chance to talk about?
Justin Wright: As just the patient of Utah, there’s not a whole lot of in depth detail I can provide about the industry and where it’s going.
Chris Holified: But your use, what you shared was awesome because I think people listening might be able to relate a little bit with it. That’s what I’m hoping.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I think so. I mean, you come across to somebody who is really knowledgeable about cannabis use, but very careful about the use, about having it in the house, talking about tolerance.
Chris Holified: You don’t find that.
Tim Pickett: You really don’t find a lot of people. A lot of people are concerned about tolerance and building up too much of a tolerance, but we don’t talk about it enough.
Justin Wright: No we don’t. And thank you for saying that. Like I said, advice for anybody getting into this, educate yourself, I did. I wanted to make sure that it was going to be right for me. And is it really just some fake medicine or was it really going to do something for me? So I spent a lot of time before I got into this. For two months I was just reading up on everything.
Tim Pickett: That’s really cool.
Chris Holified: And I tell people, Hey, what’s the worst. Try it. If it doesn’t work, you don’t have to do it no more. No one’s going to make you keep doing it.
Tim Pickett: Not at all.
Justin Wright: The only question I had for you guys is, what’s your preferred way to ingest cannabis?
Chris Holified: Well, my preferred way is burning it, combustion but obviously in Utah, that doesn’t work. So I use a volcano personally right now. That’s what I have.
Justin Wright: Do you use the bags with that?
Chris Holified: Yeah, that’s actually what I was making some phone calls in between this last interview I was trying to, it’s tough to find them. I need some replaceable. And so if anybody listening, let me know if you know where to get some because maybe I still haven’t gotten any by the time you’re listening to this. So, that’s what I use. Because I am just at home. I know people get the portable vape things and all that.
Justin Wright: Volcano has been around for a long time. That’s a good one.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, for me, I’m somebody who likes different thing for different times, different places, different events.
Chris Holified: You even got this PAX 3.
Tim Pickett: The PAX 3, I really like that. And yet the Firefly, the taste is a little better with the Firefly. So there’s places and times I like that. I’ll be honest, there is a time and place I think a good old joint could be the thing. But like you, strains, I go back to this tomato discussion all the time. I like all kinds of different tomatoes. Grape tomatoes are good on salads and heirloom, thick, cut garden fresh tomatoes are good on sandwiches. And so to me, it’s the variety and using cannabis as medicine, not every day. I don’t have a headache every day. I don’t have the same thing going on every day. So that’s the beauty, is I can use it for different things at different times and I can be creative about it too. It gives me more control frankly than just a typical prescription medication. So there’s the answer for me.
Justin Wright: Cool. The only other thing that I had was have you guys ever recycled your AVB?
Chris Holified: Oh yeah. Well, my wife’s really big into edibles. We actually got the Levo II. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that. I don’t understand all the logistics she does. it extracts it and makes it an oil and all this and that.
Justin Wright: You can make gummies.
Chris Holified: Yeah. She’s making gummies and all that. And so she uses the AVB or what do you call it? ABV, already been vaped. She uses that and then she will actually even make some, even she’s made lotions with it man. And cream.
Justin Wright: What is this thing called?
Chris Holified: Levo. L-E-V-O. And then the II. If you get the Levo II, the first one, from what I understand, didn’t decarb the flower, the second one does.
Justin Wright: Now, if you already have it decarb, like AVB you don’t need to.
Chris Holified: Well, you wouldn’t need to do that, but obviously it might not just be all that high in THC, obviously, if you’ve vaped most of the THC or anything like that.
Tim Pickett: Becomes a little more CBN, different stuff, but I’ve got patients who just eat it.
Chris Holified: Yeah. My wife will do that. She’ll throw it on bread.
Justin Wright: Oh, that way. I thought, man, like plain. I have a jar of ABV. I didn’t know if they were just dipping their fingers.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. They’ll get a pinch and put it on something and eat it. And yeah, it doesn’t taste that good.
Justin Wright: Does that absorb? I thought there was a science with extracting it that you had to get.
Tim Pickett: No, because it’s already decarbed because it’s already been vaped. So it’s anything over 250 degrees or 300 degrees. I think it’s 300. Anything over that, you’ve got an activated plant. So it is in this sense. It is an edible.
Justin Wright: Dude, I got to look into this Levo II because I made some MCT oil with my AVB, but I looked up a recipe how to make the Haribo gummies. And I ordered like this gummy bear mold on Amazon, I’m going to make some gummies, but you can’t do that with MCT oil.
Chris Holified: Looking at Levo, it’s 200 bucks. It’s not cheap, but it’s not like crazy.
Justin Wright: No, but that’s an investment. Because if you can recycle that because buying gummies and edibles and tinctures is expensive as.
Chris Holified: Or she will go at the pharmacy and get some flower and then extract it and it will go so much further because she puts them in tinctures.
Tim Pickett: There’s some calculators online too. You’ll be able to measure how much, what the percentage THC is in your flower and how much oil you’re using. And then it will give you a pretty good breakdown of how much THC per milliliter is in your oil.
Justin Wright: No way.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. There’s some pretty good calculators online.
Justin Wright: I would still want to do that. But the only thing that I would look at is, I would look at that flower and say, Oh man, you’re just cooking that in the oven. I could be like, baby —
Tim Pickett: I know, yeah.
Chris Holified: There’s some Facebook groups too on Levo. Levo has some Facebook groups, if you’re on Facebook, go join those in some of the other people that have used it.
Justin Wright: I’ll have to do that.
Tim Pickett: And as you get the different types of flower, that’ll be available here and the price will come down a little bit on a few things.
Justin Wright: That is really.
Chris Holified: And she’s infused oils just for cooking, non-cannabis related, she’s doing that. My wife’s, she’s gotten into all this natural stuff all of a sudden.
Justin Wright: That’s cool. Cool.
Chris Holified: So let’s talk about how can people connect with you, man, if people want to reach out.
Justin Wright: If want to reach out the best way to reach out to me is on Instagram— @beehivechronic, is my username.
Chris Holified: Beehive chronic. And beehivehronic.com, is your blog?
Justin Wright: Beehivechronic.com is my blog. I’m going to be revamping that to almost be kind of a blog/online comic, because I feel like to be able to draw and illustrate some of the things that I have seen positive with cannabis, I’m kind of looking forward to sharing my experiences that way. Look for 2021 to see that. I’m trying to drop a new comic strip on Instagram every Friday. So we’ll see what turns out. To me, I’m just doing it for fun. And it’s just kind of my outlet to share my positive experience with everybody else about medical cannabis.
Chris Holified: I wish every patient would do this. Do you journal at all too? Do you write a hand journal with your experiences with cannabis?
Justin Wright: No, because my handwriting sucks so bad, so that’s why I did the blog.
Tim Pickett: At least you’re doing something. I think everybody should journal their cannabis experiences.
Justin Wright: Yeah, everybody should.
Tim Pickett: I get a lot more from journaling.
Chris Holified: I’ve noticed that since I have.
Justin Wright: The other reason that I wanted to do that, it was, I believe Dr. Anden was saying, they’re looking for more statistics of how it’s helping people in Utah, because I feel like the government was kind of a little hesitant about that. So I figured if I can.
Tim Pickett: And they still are adding conditions and subtracting conditions. They always talk about subtracting.
Justin Wright: Are they subtraction chronic pain?
Tim Pickett: No, they will never subtract chronic pain. But there’s been talk about subtracting PTSD because of the evidence.
Justin Wright: I’m sorry to hear that.
Chris Holified: And what would they do? Just say, Oh, sorry. If that’s what you qualified for you just can’t have part anymore or would they be grandfathered in?
Tim Pickett: I don’t know what they would do?
Justin Wright: I’m a firm believer that cannabis can totally help. Especially our service men in the army. They need something because.
Chris Holified: It’s the least we can give them, come on.
Tim Pickett: Absolutely. I mean, they’re sleeping without cots at the Capitol.
Justin Wright: That’s something.
Chris Holified: How can people get ahold of you, Tim? As we wrap this episode up.
Tim Pickett: Utahmarijuana.org and the podcast will be up there at Utahmarijuana.org/podcast. You can look for us there, chat with us online. If you would need help finding a way to become a patient, Justin mentioned Dr. Anden, great provider in Ogden. We are also in Ogden and here in Millcreek and across the street from Beehive pharmacy. How about you, Chris?
Chris Holified: You can listen to my other podcast. I am Salt Lake Podcast. Iamsaltlake.com. We’ve got a new episode, goes up there every week. So go find out about some of these awesome people in Salt Lake city that we’ve chatted with. Also call our voicemail lineup, (385) 215-9557. This is our THC hotline. We should name it something.
Tim Pickett: THC hotline.
Chris Holified: The cannabis hotline. No, I mean, this is something for you to call if you have questions about cannabis, if you have questions about getting your card even, if you have questions for Tim. We can maybe answer them on the podcast.
Tim Pickett: Absolutely.
Chris Holified: Questions for myself or possible future guests and make sure you subscribe whatever outlet you’re in, that way you get all these episodes right to your phone, right when they get released because we have a brand new one goes… I don’t know if you know this, Tim, they go live every Friday morning at 4:20. I figured out how to get it to go live at 4:20 AM. So that’s when they go live in the podcast feeds, 4:20 AM on Friday morning.
Tim Pickett: That’s awesome.
Chris Holified: You’ll get it right there. So subscribe and we’ll see you next week on the next episode of a Utah in the Weeds, right?
Justin Wright: Yep. All right, everybody stay safe out there. Thank you for having me.
Chris Holified: Awesome. Thanks, Justin.
This has been quite a year for Utah, hasn’t it? Who would have thought that we’d ever approve cannabis use here, medical or otherwise? And now here we are, almost one year later. Business is booming, product selection is expanding, and arguably best of all — cannabis home delivery has arrived! No more braving the snow for your medication. No more driving to the pharmacy when you’re in so much pain you can’t see. Thanks to WholesomeCo Cannabis, your medicine can now come to you. My experience with home delivery was quick, simple, and convenient. I bet yours will be, too.
Okay, so full disclosure: the delivery fee is $15. This can feel a bit extreme for those of us that are avid users of Amazon Prime (and not so extreme for those of us that have been relying on DoorDash all pandemic). Lucky for us, WholesomeCo has got us covered. All members of the utahmarijuana.org mailing list received an email with a promo code for FREE cannabis home delivery on your first order. That 
means you can pick out your medicine online from the comfort of your couch and have it delivered to you for the same price as it would cost you to head down to Bountiful. You can’t beat a deal like that! Try it for yourself with code UTHFIRST. (Edit: this promotion has now expired, but keep an eye on utahmarijuana.org emails for future deals. Oh yeah, one more thing: WholesomeCo has since eliminated their delivery fee entirely. That’s right, free delivery! Every single time. To find out more about home delivery, view their delivery guide.)
Living in Salt Lake County, I lucked out and could place my order a few days after the home delivery program launched. (WholesomeCo plans to unlock the entire state by June 2021.) I’ve used WholesomeCo’s pickup option in the past, so I’m already a registered patient with them online. You’ve got to register before you can place an order. Once you’re registered, you can browse their menu and pick out your medicine, connect your Hypur account, select a time you’d like it to be delivered, enter your $15 off promo code, and you’re off to the races. I can’t stress enough how easy it all is. (Edit: As of August 2021, WholesomeCo can now accept debit cards for delivery orders. Score!)
When your delivery person is on the way, you’ll receive a text. Because we are dealing with an illicit substance here, it’s absolutely mandatory that you are the person to accept your delivery, so you’ll want to make sure you’re home. Minutes later, you’ll see a familiar face at your door — a member of their security team that always greets you so warmly when you walk into WholesomeCo. Huge shoutout to Trey. Trey, if you’re reading this: you’re awesome and every Utah patient appreciates the work you do for us every day.
After showing Trey my ID and gushing about how freaking cool it was that I just had cannabis delivered to my house legally, he handed me my medicine and was on to the next delivery. The whole process took less than one minute out of my day. Say it with me this time: it’s so easy!
Medical Cannabis home delivery is a HUGE step forward for Utah patients, especially now. We’re almost a year deep into a global pandemic and any instance where you can avoid going out in public is a win these days. A bit of an anxious hypochondriac myself, I’ll admit I let out a huge sigh of relief knowing that if I happened to get COVID —since I don’t have a caregiver to get my medicine for me — I don’t have to go without cannabis or put others at risk by going into the pharmacy.
Of course, it goes without saying that severely ill patients will also benefit from home delivery. If it’s hard for you to get around, if the pharmacy is too far away, or if you need a ride — all of those hiccups are solved by home delivery. And of course, this is a huge win for those Utah patients who live miles and miles away from a pharmacy. (Southern Utah still hasn’t gotten their Medical Cannabis pharmacies.) Once home delivery opens up to the whole state this summer, our friends down South can start enjoying the benefits of this program, too. (Edit: Since the publication of this article, WholesomeCo has expanded its delivery service to the entire state of Utah.)
Trust me, it’s worth your time. You’ll need to be a cardholding patient to participate in the home delivery program, so if you need assistance getting your card, we’d love to help. Schedule online or call us at 801.851.5554 to reserve your new patient appointment and join the program, or check out our letter-to-card program for assistance converting that expired recommendation letter and getting legal again. Visit our blog for more helpful tips with anything from how to find your “just right” dose to talking to your kids about cannabis.
Are you going to try home delivery? Comment below with your experience. Happy medicating!
Hemp processing and its many complexities is the main topic of discussion in this episode with Clean Leaf’s Kyle Egbert. Egbert is a trained scientist, a small business owner, and the founder of both Clean Leaf and Mountain Valley Botanicals. His specialty is processing hemp to extract components that can be used to manufacture cannabis products.
Tim and Chris opened the episode with a quick discussion on Wholesome and their new door-to-door delivery service. [00:44] Wholesome recently began deliveries in a limited number of Utah counties. They have plans to expand statewide in the very near future.
Getting back to Egbert, he led a fascinating discussion about the complexities of processing raw hemp. [03:44] There are numerous ways to do it; Egbert prefers CO2 processing because it is a more exact science. It allows him to extract specific chemicals to create an almost unlimited number of CBD and THC profiles.
The discussion covered a lot of bases ranging from the science of processing [05:44] to the cost of licensing [35:38]. Tim, Chris, and Kyle discussed how growers get their hemp processed and how the processed products eventually make it to consumers. [22:05] Bear in mind, all of this was related to hemp rather than marijuana.
If nothing else, the discussion clearly demonstrates how complex the science of hemp and marijuana processing is. The science is necessary in order to ensure that growers, processors, and retailers all remain within the confines of Utah law [25:49]. The more business owners like Egbert learn about this science, the better retail products become.
Egbert brought samples for Tim and Chris with him to the interview. Tim and Chris briefly talked about them during their opening monologue. You can expect to hear more about them in the future.
Tim Pickett: So welcome everybody to Utah in the Weeds. Chris Holifield and I, my name is Tim Pickett, I am a medical cannabis expert with UtahMarijuana.org. You can find our podcast on utahmarijuana.org/podcast. Chris, we’re doing the intro a little different this week to episode 43, right?
Chris Holifield: Absolutely. I think this way will be a lot easier because a lot of times we chat with people a few weeks back, right? But there’s a lot more topical stuff that we want to bring up at the beginning. Like right now, I realized delivery is available everywhere, it’s not just Utah County and Salt Lake County. Did you see this, Tim?
Tim Pickett: No. Well, absolutely. We sent out an email to all of our patients and all of our email list a few days ago about Wholesome delivery.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: And there’s a coupon code if you sign up for the email list on utahmarijuana.org. There’s a coupon code that you can get your first delivery free.
Chris Holifield: No kidding.
Tim Pickett: When you register using that coupon code. Yeah, this is exactly why I think having a timely intro is a good idea.
Chris Holifield: Yeah. So where can they get this coupon code? How can they find this? Is this on utahmarijuana.org?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, utahmarijuana.org. Sign up for the email list. If you just sign up for our newsletter at the bottom of the website or anywhere, and if you’re already a patient, of course, you’re going to get this email coupon code. But yeah, if you sign up with us then we’ll be able to send you that unique coupon code for your first delivery free. It’s pretty awesome –
Chris Holifield: Take advantage of that.
Tim Pickett: … because I mean, they have delivery in I think Summit County, in Utah County, they’re really branching out.
Chris Holifield: It was like Tooele, Wasatch. I mean, it sounds like pretty much the whole state now is open.
Tim Pickett: They’re going to open to the whole state, and Chris Jeffery is the CEO of Wholesome, who we interviewed in one of our first episodes with Richard, their retail manager, the retail director. Their background is in home delivery, so they’re going to be really good at it.
Chris Holifield: Who doesn’t want their cannabis delivered to their doorstep, right? Who’s on the podcast today, Tim?
Tim Pickett: The guest we have today is Kyle Egbert. I’m really excited about this interview. I did https://mjplatform.com/mjnot know a lot about the types of processing that you could do with hemp or cannabis, and we talked a lot about that with him. He gave us some samples, remember? The CBD cartridge.
Chris Holifield: Oh yeah.
Tim Pickett: Have you been using that a little bit?
Chris Holifield: Actually I have. The liquid, that syringe one he gave us to put on the … And we talk about this in the episode, where he said, “Put it on your dry flower when you vape it.” I’ve only been using that, so.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, and I’ve only been using the cartridge.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Tim Pickett: And for the first time I’ve had a cartridge that really is buffering. That’s how I describe it. So, I’m excited about people listening to this episode, learning about that process, and he makes some really good stuff. He’s got a cool story.
Chris Holifield: Absolutely. We’re going to get into that. He’s the founder of Mountain Valley Botanicals and My Clean Leaf. Great story. I mean, this guy’s got a … He’s a knowledge basket. I mean, he’s a book of knowledge with CBD and cannabis and all that. We’re going to get into that. Make sure you’re subscribed in whatever podcast outlet you’re listening to this in. If you can’t find this in a certain podcast outlet, let Tim or myself know so we can make sure this podcast becomes available. I don’t know, I don’t have anything more to say about this episode, Tim. I think we should get into that conversation with Kyle, unless you got anything more to say.
Tim Pickett: No. Good luck, have fun.
Chris Holifield: All right. Thanks guys for listening. Here we go.
…
Chris Holifield: You’re involved a lot with hemp, correct?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: I mean, you got My Clean Leaf and Mountain Valley Botanical.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Do those work together or are those separate? It looks like they kind of work together.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah. So, Mountain Valley Botanical started in 2019. That’s when I first received the processing license. It was probably about November, December, and then we processed all last year doing supercritical CO2 extraction. Then with, I don’t know how familiar you guys are with the hemp market and that side of things.
Chris Holifield: Not as much as I should be.
Kyle Egbert: Well, as far as the materials, the prices on the materials, a liter of crude when I first started was probably, oh gosh, of crude probably 3,200 to five grand is what you could sell it for.
Tim Pickett: This is crude CBD oil.
Kyle Egbert: That is crude, yeah. I mean, it’s got the fats and the waxes, and pretty much got everything in it.
Tim Pickett: Oh, this is basically just squished hemp.
Kyle Egbert: You pull it right out of the machine. Yeah, essentially.
Tim Pickett: Okay.
Kyle Egbert: And then the market really tanked bad. I mean, it was 90% loss on the market. So now a liter of crude — I can pick that up easy 135 bucks.
Tim Pickett: Holy cow.
Kyle Egbert: So, because of that we had to adapt our business. We were always interested in doing products, retail products and consumer stuff, which is what I brought here. We were always interested in doing that, but then really when the market shifted in that direction it was a no-brainer for us to start producing retail products and get that out to the consumer.
Tim Pickett: Because you were originally just going to process.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, process and sell that, get it out to someone else that was going to make a product out of it.
Tim Pickett: So we’ve had a few hemp growers on the podcast, but we really haven’t talked a lot about the processing and CO2 extraction. Can you educate us a little bit about the different methods of extraction and why you chose CO2?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Because I think it’s important for people to understand.
Kyle Egbert: So, before I talk about CO2 extraction, most of the consumer base, they have this affinity for CO2 extraction. They think it’s the best, right? I’ll say it flat-out right here, right now, no matter which method you employ to do extraction, you can arrive to the same high quality end product that can be consumed. So, I mean, you can do CO2 extraction, you can do ethanol extraction, you can do hydrocarbon extraction, which is illegal in Utah. You can also press it and do more of a physical extraction that way. You can also throw it in a pot with MCT oil, turn up the heat and just let it steep in there, and they refer to that as a solventless extraction. So really what it came down to was we could either press it, use ethanol or CO2.
Kyle Egbert: Really the reason why we chose CO2 is because of that consumer perception that CO2 is the best really. So we chose that method. Another kind of smaller reason is because as far as the economics goes, it’s pricier upfront for the equipment for CO2 extraction, but CO2 is much cheaper than ethanol. So in the long run CO2 can be cheaper than doing an ethanol extraction. Also too with CO2, I have the ability to manipulate the CO2 to target certain compounds in the plant itself. So if I just want to pull out terpenes I can fudge my numbers a little bit and all of a sudden I’m pulling pure terpenes. If I want to target more of the cannabinoids, again, I change my parameters and I can get those cannabinoids out.
Kyle Egbert: So, I do have an ability to almost fraction terpenes and cannabinoids, separate them, or I can extract them all together, it really doesn’t matter. So I have more options extracting with CO2 than I would with ethanol. Ethanol is a really strong solvent, and so when you’re running hemp through, you’re just pulling anything and everything you’re pulling it out, whereas with CO2 you have more of that flexibility to target certain compounds.
Tim Pickett: This is cool, and this is the same process that they extract THC?
Kyle Egbert: Exact same.
Tim Pickett: Exact same.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, yeah. If you’re doing CO2 extraction on marijuana it’s the same process. Everything that I’m doing in my laboratory, if I had a marijuana processing license, the only difference would be I’d be processing marijuana instead of hemp.
Chris Holifield: Why did you get into all this stuff? I mean, what got you into this? This is your business, right?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: So, you started all this.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah. I founded this.
Chris Holifield: I mean, I looked at your education, you went to BYU the whole nine yards, right?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: I mean, you got great education.
Kyle Egbert: Yes.
Chris Holifield: What got you into this, man?
Kyle Egbert: So, I started a degree at BYU Idaho up at Rexburg, and that was in agronomy. Are you guys familiar with what agronomy is?
Chris Holifield: I’m not, no.
Kyle Egbert: So, agronomy is essentially large scale farming crop production, being able to manage that, knowing plants, plant science, soil science, chemistry, water physics, different things like this. A lot of people don’t really understand how intensive and how involved agriculture is. There is a lot of science behind it. So, I started my degree up there, graduated in 2019, no, 2018, it was the end of 2018. My wife and I moved down here to Logan, started my master’s degree in plant science at Utah State University, and what I was looking at in my master’s program is I was actually doing irrigation research on alfalfa.
Tim Pickett: Oh wow.
Kyle Egbert: And most of my research took place down in Central Utah, kind of that Richfield, Centerfield, Monroe area. I had many fields down there. So, because of that I would travel a lot. Through my travels I started my program, and then Utah amended their laws, said, “All right, we’re going to do this. Marijuana, hemp, all things cannabis we’re going to do it.” And it was really new. I was traveling the state talking with hemp farmers, because this started popping up. A lot of the growers that I was working with doing alfalfa research they were interested in hemp, growing a small plot, like an acre or half an acre, or a couple 100 plants.
Tim Pickett: Just to test it out or just-
Kyle Egbert: Just test it out. Well, they were interested in it because at that time, and this was another thing that kind of … This is a whole other mess. A lot of the growers thought you could grow an acre of hemp and turn that into $60,000. That was the idea.
Tim Pickett: Because at the time the crude was-
Kyle Egbert: Was so expensive.
Tim Pickett: … so expensive.
Kyle Egbert: That ended up not being true, and a lot of farmers got burned. That’s a whole other thing, but anyway. So, I was traveling, farmers were interested in it, and then these meetings started popping up around the state with legislators, with farmers, with the university, and this was such a new thing. We’re going from black market to now white market, and there was a lot of gaps, there was a lot of doors of opportunity. So in my travels I was like, “You know what? This might be something I could do.”
Kyle Egbert: So originally I was actually going to grow. I was going to get some land up in Logan, I was going to grow. I was going to put in 10 acres.
Chris Holifield: Of hemp?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, hemp.
Chris Holifield: Of hemp, okay.
Kyle Egbert: And I was going to grow hemp. Well, looking at the market, seeing how everything was going I decided that farming was not going to be the best option for me. I went through and I looked at how many licenses there were of growing hemp, individuals growing hemp, and I was like, “You know what? This is pretty saturated right now. Why not look at starting a laboratory?” So I started looking at what would be involved. What are successful laboratories in Colorado and California and all these other states, what are they doing? How are they doing it? Going into this I had no idea how involved a laboratory was. I had to learn a lot.
Chris Holifield: So you were halfway into probably putting a thing together and you were like, “What did I get myself into?”
Kyle Egbert: I mean, because of my master’s program, learning to be a scientist I got really good at doing research. Pulling up an article, a technical article, reading the article, doing all that, that might be a little overwhelming for a lot of people and boring. For me, that’s what I was doing in my master’s program, so I was already used to doing that. So every day I’m reading, every day I’m studying, every day I’m looking to solve a problem. One day I would have a certain problem, the next day I’d have a totally different problem, and I just would have to solve those problems. Like okay, I have this ability to target different compounds through CO2 extraction. How the heck do I do that?
Tim Pickett: Right.
Kyle Egbert: Especially having no prior experience at another company, I had to figure that out. So again, going back to the books, chemistry books, physics books, articles, YouTube, whatever, trying to figure out how to do this. Eventually, I got pretty good at it.
Chris Holifield: Were you meeting with anybody that was doing it? Did you have any real-life mentors?
Kyle Egbert: I went to Colorado. I went to Colorado a few times.
Chris Holifield: Okay. So you had some people out there to –
Kyle Egbert: But what I was doing out there was actually hydrocarbon extraction, I wasn’t doing any CO2 extraction.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Kyle Egbert: And hydrocarbon extraction is fun, but that’s not what I was doing, but a lot of the principles of the post extraction are the exact same. So I was able to do the post-extraction and get more experience that way, but as far as doing extraction with CO2, I mean, I really had to teach myself how to do that.
Tim Pickett: So how did you get out of the lab? I mean, were you thinking about doing a testing lab or a production lab the whole time?
Kyle Egbert: Production. Do you know what an HPLC is?
Tim Pickett: No.
Kyle Egbert: High-performance liquid chromatography or high-pressure liquid chromatography.
Tim Pickett: Teach us.
Kyle Egbert: It’s analytics.
Tim Pickett: Teach us, Kyle.
Kyle Egbert: So when you send a sample off to be analyzed, cannabinoid potency, they run it through an HPLC typically. So, I wanted the ability to extract and then take that extract and look at it, look at the chemical analysis of it, see what was in there, see what I was dealing with.
Tim Pickett: Sure.
Kyle Egbert: So originally it was production, but I wanted to put out the best product that I could absolutely put out, so that involved chemical analysis. I mean, our lab, we have the full capability to go from raw hemp biomass, all the way to something that is water clear and tastes amazing, and that includes extraction, winterization, distillation, further refinement using chromatographic methods, different things like that. So really, I mean, I would have a problem and I would spend the next week or two, or month, or longer, trying to figure out how to solve that problem. Eventually, I got to something like this, which is absolutely phenomenal. I love this product.
Chris Holifield: Which you’re showing us some cartridges.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, this is … Well, and I’ll just throw this to you, here.
Chris Holifield: Since we don’t have video setup for the podcast yet. So what am I looking at here? I got a container with some white –
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, so those are crystallized cannabinoids. I did the analysis on that actually last night, and it’s primarily CBD crystallized out. A lot of times you’ll see it in a fine powder, but I wanted to just let these suckers grow and have something pretty cool to visualize.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, it looks like white rock candy.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Now, what would happen if you would suck on some of this?
Kyle Egbert: You would just be getting a dose of CBD really.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Kyle Egbert: It’s primarily CBD.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Tim Pickett: That’s in here.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah. I mean, there are trace amounts of CBDV, THCV, CBN and CBC in that, but there’s non detectable levels of delta-8 and delta-9 THC.
Tim Pickett: So okay, you bring up delta-8, right?
Chris Holifield: Delta-8.
Tim Pickett: Delta-8 is like the big-
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Is the big discussion topic right now, right?
Kyle Egbert: Oh, delta-8.
Tim Pickett: Oh, delta-8.
Kyle Egbert: Oh, how I have a love-hate relationship with you.
Tim Pickett: I’m sure, but you can extract it out.
Kyle Egbert: Oh yeah, I can.
Tim Pickett: You’re not the hemp farmer that just got their crop designated as too hot and now has to destroy it. You could just take all that biomass and extract what you need.
Kyle Egbert: Oh boy. So, when I get biomass typically it tests within .3%, maybe .31%, .29%, whatever, but as long as it’s within that tolerance, near .3%, the dry biomass. As soon as I take that and process it, and this is a huge problem in extraction, as soon as I take that biomass and run it through my equipment, I turn that from a hemp product right into a marijuana product.
Tim Pickett: Well yeah, because you took out all the THC and now you have it in a five-gallon bucket over here.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, exactly. So, if I’m taking it, if I’ve got biomass at .3% THC, when I extract that into crude, all of a sudden it turns into 3% THC, designated by law, that’s marijuana.
Tim Pickett: What the heck do you do with it?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Don’t look at me!
Tim Pickett: What’s your address up there?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, seriously. So this is the thing.
Tim Pickett: Everybody wants your address all of a sudden.
Kyle Egbert: Like I said, as soon as I extract that I’m essentially turning it, taking it from hemp biomass turning it into marijuana concentrate essentially.
Tim Pickett: Low-
Kyle Egbert: Low THC.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, of course.
Kyle Egbert: I mean, it’s two, 3%, but if I take that and I started to refine it down even further, if I distill it and I’m doing all these different processes, I’ve seen as high as 10% THC on the extract itself. I can’t put that into a product legally, it’s marijuana.
Tim Pickett: This is fascinating.
Kyle Egbert: I mean, even for example, and I brought these, I can toss these over to you guys. So this is our green cream.
Tim Pickett: Okay, this is like half an ounce, a tablespoon.
Chris Holifield: What is it, like a lotion or something?
Kyle Egbert: It’s seven mLs, it’s .25 ounces. This is just our sample topical. We call it green cream.
Chris Holifield: So you rub it on your body or something?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah. Yeah, you can rub it on.
Tim Pickett: What’s the scent I smell? Other than … I mean, I-
Kyle Egbert: It’s a proprietary blend of oils, is what I can tell you.
Tim Pickett: But it’s like a little bit of menthol-y.
Kyle Egbert: Lavender.
Tim Pickett: Eucalyptus almost.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, lavender, eucalyptus, tea tree, that’s kind of what builds that aroma.
Tim Pickett: To kind of overcome the skunky.
Kyle Egbert: So I actually don’t mask any scent. A lot of times in hemp products, and we can talk about this down the road, a lot of times, especially in tinctures, they’re always trying to mask just kind of-
Tim Pickett: Yeah, the skunk.
Kyle Egbert: … that skunky, dirty taste. With our products and our tinctures, I’m not masking, and the reason why is because the way that I refine it. Our tinctures when you take it and it’s a cinnamon tincture, you taste cinnamon and you don’t have those undertones of kind of that dirty extract. So, it’s a little bit different, but anyway.
Tim Pickett: Okay, we’re back to the THC.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, we’re back to the THC thing. So, even in this, which our green cream is what the cannabinoid is the greatest dilution. So when we put our cannabinoids into this green cream, it’s that’s how we dilute it the most in this product. Even at 10%, it gets pretty difficult to dilute that. So, by law, I have to be really careful. So, if I extract a product and I have this oil, and if the farmer legally owns that liter of oil, unless they have a processor’s license, they cannot possess their crude extract.
Tim Pickett: What?
Kyle Egbert: So there’s all these problems with a farmer, as a service, as a laboratory, if they’re bringing it to me and they say, “Hey, I want you to extract this and I want my oil.” The first thing I say to them is, “Do you have a processor’s license?” And most of the time they’ll say no, it’s two grand for a hemp processing license, and I say, “Okay, if that’s the case, if I extract this for you and you want to possess this, legally you cannot possess your extract because it’s hot.” It’s a marijuana product essentially.
Tim Pickett: Because it’s gone through … It was legal before, you process it-
Kyle Egbert: And now it’s extracted and concentrated.
Tim Pickett: … and now it’s illegal for them to possess it.
Kyle Egbert: Exactly.
Tim Pickett: So what do they do?
Kyle Egbert: Well, most of them don’t buy a processor’s license, and so they have to find someone who-
Chris Holifield: To process it for them.
Kyle Egbert: … will either process it for them or where they can store it.
Tim Pickett: Oh, so you could process it and store it because you have a processor-
Kyle Egbert: Oh yeah. I can, I have the license.
Tim Pickett: So they could say, “Okay, you can store it until I have a contract to sell it to somebody else.” And then it can go from your lab to whoever-
Kyle Egbert: Someone else.
Tim Pickett: … to bottle it and put it into products and they can sell it.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: How often are you doing that?
Kyle Egbert: I haven’t.
Tim Pickett: Okay.
Kyle Egbert: Not one time.
Tim Pickett: Why?
Kyle Egbert: I have accepted jars from other processors because the processors want to get it out of their place, and farmers come to me in a frantic, trying to find a place for this. So, a lot of times I have accepted it to store it for them, but I have never had one of those individuals come to me and say, “Hey, I need this to go to this other processor because they’re going to put it in a product for me.”
Tim Pickett: So this is one of-
Kyle Egbert: This is one…
Tim Pickett: It seems like one of the big issues with-
Kyle Egbert: Oh yeah.
Tim Pickett: … hemp growing, hemp processing and the pathway to market.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, especially too because if you take a liter or a kilo of crude extract, in order to get it ready to be in a product itself, you’re looking at 1,500 to two grand in order to refine it that much to be product ready, because it’s got to go through all those different steps of distillation, winterization, distillation. Does it have pesticides in it? Well, if it does, that’s another grand because you got to get the pesticides out. If it doesn’t, well, we still have to get the THC out. You’re still looking at 1,200, 15 grand, or 1,500.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, 12 to 1,500.
Kyle Egbert: To get that THC out.
Tim Pickett: Can you do that? Can you get the THC out and give it back to them?
Kyle Egbert: Yes, I can do that, but farmers, a lot of them, don’t want to pay the price in order to get the THC removed.
Tim Pickett: Because at that point their crude is not as valuable. I mean, you may have paid more –
Kyle Egbert: Right. So for example, a broad spectrum product, a kilo of broad-spectrum once, two years ago, 20 grand, okay? Today, three.
Tim Pickett: Oh wow.
Kyle Egbert: And it costs them $2,500 to get to that point, so their profit margin is terrible at that point, less [crosstalk 00:23:24].
Tim Pickett: That’s besides the growing.
Kyle Egbert: Right.
Tim Pickett: That’s besides all, and the … I mean, cutting that stuff down is a lot of work.
Kyle Egbert: Most of the time, once you go through the economics to get it to that point, taking into consideration the growing, the extraction, the processing, most of the time they’re upside down.
Tim Pickett: What’s the answer? What’s the solution? Let them possess a 10%, a 4% THC product?
Kyle Egbert: I mean, I’m really excited about … Who was it, Rand Paul? He proposed new legislation to go from .3% to 1% as a hemp product. I mean, that’s awesome, but still.
Tim Pickett: Oh, that would be huge. I guess eventually we’ve got to have the markets mixed, right? We’ve got to have the .3% mixed with the high THC content, and we’ve got to be able to go to the, even if it is the dispensary, we’ve got to be able to go there and buy everything in between.
Kyle Egbert: That’s already happening.
Tim Pickett: At the dispensaries.
Chris Holifield: High percentage CBD, right?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah. Well, what’s happening is the processors, hemp processors, are taking extracts or they’re taking isolate and they’re chemically converting it to delta-9 or delta-8, and then that’s getting into the medical market.
Tim Pickett: Oh, whoa, okay. You can take a crude hemp product and you can convert it into a higher THC product?
Kyle Egbert: Yes.
Tim Pickett: I mean, do you have a YouTube video on how to do this?
Kyle Egbert: No. Those are proprietary methods.
Tim Pickett: Right, but I’ve heard of this before.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: This is something I’ve heard of, and if I’m right is it the CBG is the golden ticket to get it over there?
Kyle Egbert: No.
Tim Pickett: Or you can take CBD and make it into THC.
Kyle Egbert: CBD is typically what people are using-
Tim Pickett: To convert into a high-
Kyle Egbert: … to convert into delta-9 and delta-8 and that is happening right now in Utah, and there are products out there that were sourced from CBD, that are high THC products that were originally sourced from CBD.
Tim Pickett: And now they’re tested in the dispensaries.
Chris Holifield: Wild.
Tim Pickett: This is kind of wild, Chris.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Everybody we bring on here, we find out something new.
Tim Pickett: I know.
Chris Holifield: You know what I mean? I’m so grateful that we have this podcast to be able to learn really.
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Because I’m learning along with you guys, you know.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah. Oh yeah.
Tim Pickett: This is pretty cool. We’re getting the pieces, that’s what’s so cool. We’ve gotten a couple of other pieces and this is just another piece of the puzzle.
Kyle Egbert: Really what needs to happen is that professionals from the industry need to come together with legislators to educate the legislators of really what the heck is going on and what needs to change.
Tim Pickett: Right, like what reality looks like. We feel like this in the medical market too.
Kyle Egbert: Who was it last episode? Who was it last episode that you had on? Katie?
Chris Holifield: Katie, yeah.
Tim Pickett: Oh, Katie Barber, yeah.
Kyle Egbert: Really there just needs to be this large committee of industry professionals, regulators and legislators, and we need to sit down and we need to hash all this out in order to clear up what the heck is going on.
Chris Holifield: Well, then plus once they open it up to more testing and more research studies, because there’s not enough of that going on right now, it’s just people like yourself that are doing the little bits of stuff you’re doing.
Tim Pickett: Right, like you’re taking-
Chris Holifield: Imagine once that opens up.
Tim Pickett: Right, and you’re taking things from … You’ve had to learn this from scratch.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Which like Utah State, great example of an amazing agriculture school, lot of farming going on up there and teaching. One of the best schools in the nation, right? For agriculture and animal farming and that type of thing, right?
Kyle Egbert: Right, right.
Tim Pickett: Do they have a cannabis program up there?
Kyle Egbert: They do. So actually, are you familiar with Dr. Bruce Bugbee?
Tim Pickett: Uh-uh (negative).
Kyle Egbert: So, he typically is looking in a lot of stuff with NASA. He does a lot of research with agriculture in NASA in space and whatnot, but he took on … So it was about mid-year last year in 2000 … Well, no, it would’ve been in 2019 when the program started, but what they started doing is they started growing hemp. They were doing a lot of trump variety, anyway, but what they were looking at was how does light affect growth, how does light affect the cannabinoid concentration in the plant itself. What happens when we stress it? Nutrients, water, whatever. So, they were doing a lot of that, but medically they’re not looking at how are cannabinoids interacting in the body, what’s going on there.
Kyle Egbert: I do know that the University of Utah is doing studies. They’re looking at how to … There was one study, I was trying to get on board with it to be a subject, and they were looking at … I think they were doing 10 milligram doses of CBD with zero THC, so basically a one to one, and then the reverse, where it was 10 milligrams of THC and zero milligrams of CBD, and they were doing brain scans to try to look to see how those compounds were affecting signals in the brain. I do know that they’re doing periodic studies like that, and you can actually sign up to be a subject and go through that, whether or not you’re actually going to be getting THC, CBD. They’ll choose. You might be getting a placebo, but whatever, but they’re doing studies like that because they want to understand how is this affecting the brain, what kind of brain signals can we read through an MRI. I don’t know if they’re doing an MRI scan or a CAT scan, but they’re doing something.
Tim Pickett: So what products do you have other than the green cream?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: What products do you sell?
Kyle Egbert: I really just started our retail in December. I said, “You know what? Heck, we’re going to do this, we’re going to go for it.” So our very first product that we are putting out on the market, which we are still getting certified, is actually these vape carts. I’ll pass these to you guys.
Chris Holifield: So, I’m looking at some indica Purple Punch it says, Clean Leaf, ultra-pure broad-spectrum.
Kyle Egbert: Yep. One thing you’ll notice about that is the content or the concentration of cannabinoids is outlined right there on the front.
Tim Pickett: I know, this is pretty cool. This is something that I always love. I love it about Zion Medicinal, I like it about this. When you’re labeling out your cannabinoids it means something of a sophistication in your ability to produce a product, in my opinion.
Kyle Egbert: Right.
Tim Pickett: If you just put CBD and THC on there, that’s fine, but this is cool, CBD.
Kyle Egbert: So, one of the things that we’re really striving for is standardization. That’s a big thing for me, is that with each different batch that I produce it’s standardized and you’re not going to get batch variation, because that’s one of the things that bugs the consumer the most. They’ll take an edible one time, they’ll feel great, the next time they take it they didn’t feel anything.
Chris Holifield: It’s like, what happened?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, exactly.
Tim Pickett: It’s so true. This one has 500 milligrams of CBD, CBG 100 milligrams, CBC 25, CBN, CBDV, THCV 25. This is a pretty good broad-spectrum product.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: I mean, the fact that you’ve got 100 milligrams of CBG in here is pretty impressive.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Is this all hemp grown in Utah?
Kyle Egbert: So, that is we take it in our laboratory and we refine it down to the point where we have individual compounds that then we can make the product.
Tim Pickett: Okay, so this a-
Kyle Egbert: That’s how I’m making that.
Tim Pickett: But that’s all vape cartridges, right?
Kyle Egbert: No.
Tim Pickett: Like almost all. No? A recipe.
Kyle Egbert: No.
Tim Pickett: What I’m saying is it’s a recipe. You get these compounds, you put them in. That’s what-
Kyle Egbert: That’s what I’m doing.
Tim Pickett: … you’re doing because you want consistency.
Kyle Egbert: Yes.
Tim Pickett: I think that’s important.
Kyle Egbert: A lot of times you’ll go to a dispensary, you’ll go to a vape shop and you’ll see a product and it’ll say something like 500 milligrams total cannabinoids, and it’s very ambiguous and you don’t really know what you’re getting.
Chris Holifield: You’re like, “What does this even mean?” Right?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, exactly. A lot of times what companies, individuals, whomever is making that product, they’re just taking it to a certain point in the refinement process, saying, “That’s good enough, let’s put it in a cart and let’s go.” So, each cart that you’re going to get from that company, you’re probably going to have a different experience with, maybe it tastes like crap, maybe it doesn’t, who knows.
Tim Pickett: Well, you can just add a little terpenes.
Kyle Egbert: Well, yeah.
Tim Pickett: And then it’ll taste fine.
Kyle Egbert: Right, but what we’ve really tried to do is one, this is a pure product. When you look at a chromatogram, a chemical analysis, what you’re going to see is you’re going to see those cannabinoids, that’s it.
Tim Pickett: Cool.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: How about terpenes? You don’t have terpenes listed.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, I do, in Purple Punch.
Chris Holifield: But what the name is, the names of the terpenes, is that what you mean or the kinds of terpenes?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Okay, explain that. Teach me a little bit about-
Kyle Egbert: So this is Purple Punch genetic variety of terpenes. So this is when you’ve got, I don’t know, frosted sky or you’ve got Skywalker or something, those are genetic varieties of cannabis, they’re going to have a certain ratio of different terpenes.
Tim Pickett: Got it. So you have the terpene profile of Purple Punch.
Kyle Egbert: Yes.
Tim Pickett: Okay, that makes sense.
Kyle Egbert: Then if you want to see hey, what are the individual terpenes themselves, that’s when you go and you look at a CoA and you can see that chemical analysis.
Tim Pickett: Can you add and subtract terpenes as well?
Kyle Egbert: Sure.
Tim Pickett: Because you could essentially look up the profile of Purple Punch and make sure that you’re dialed in.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Right.
Kyle Egbert: Oh yeah. You can really manipulate it however you want. If I really wanted to, I could make a Clean Leaf kush and have it be a certain flavor essentially, if I wanted to. I don’t really have any interest in doing that, but yeah. Oh yeah, you can manipulate that product any way.
Chris Holifield: Man.
Tim Pickett: I don’t think people understand the complexity of cannabis at this point in history.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Right? We really have moved beyond drying it up, rolling it up and lighting a match.
Chris Holifield: Now, are you doing this all by yourself or do you got like employees or people? I mean, you’re not the one packaging, you got like an outside source [crosstalk 00:33:44].
Kyle Egbert: A lot of it’s me.
Chris Holifield: Okay. Oh, a lot of it is … Most of it is you.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, yep.
Chris Holifield: Wow.
Tim Pickett: What’s the plan?
Kyle Egbert: Well, I’m small.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Well, if you’re doing most of this yourself.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, I’m a small time. My own lab is small, my production line is small.
Chris Holifield: In your basement or what?
Kyle Egbert: Oh no. No, I have a location where I have to do everything, which our facility is actually … So, we’re licensed with Utah to process. We’re also CGMP compliant, we’re not certified but we’re compliant, meaning we follow all those standards. We’re also food grade certified in Utah. So our facility where we manufacture these products are done in a food facility, a food-
Tim Pickett: Food grade.
Kyle Egbert: … food grade facility, yeah.
Chris Holifield: That’s cool.
Tim Pickett: That is cool.
Kyle Egbert: That was a pain getting it to that point.
Tim Pickett: I’ll bet.
Kyle Egbert: Just putting up, I mean, even to the flipping ceiling tiles and what those had to be. Oh man, but yeah. Pretty much all the research and development I do. Product design, getting it to that point, what it’s going to look like, what are the cannabinoids, the flavor profile, everything like that.
Chris Holifield: Where do you see this in five years? I mean, would you like to get into more THC? Would you like to get into growing?
Kyle Egbert: Oh, I would love to go to medical.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Kyle Egbert: Oh yeah.
Chris Holifield: So you would like to eventually get into-
Kyle Egbert: So, I would love to see this build up here in Utah and be a household name. People know what Clean Leaf is, they trust it, they know that they’re going to get the same experience every single time, going back to that standardization of the product, but what I’d really like to do is I’d really like to become a marijuana processors and start to put these quality of products onto the market.
Tim Pickett: Onto the medical market.
Kyle Egbert: Onto the medical market.
Tim Pickett: What’s the next step for you to get there?
Kyle Egbert: Build Clean Leaf up.
Tim Pickett: So that the growers come to you and say …
Kyle Egbert: I mean, I know a lot of the medical growers and also the processors. Really, I mean, my biggest hurdle is $100,000 in licensing.
Tim Pickett: For the processing license.
Kyle Egbert: Just the license alone is 100 grand every year.
Tim Pickett: Are they restricted for processing or could you, if you had 100 grand, you could go out and you could get a license?
Kyle Egbert: So, the only license that they restrict is the cultivator’s license. What is it, eight?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, the cultivators and then the retail, right? So there’s 14 authorized retail licenses and there are eight authorized growers.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah. From my understanding, they do not restrict the amount of processors.
Tim Pickett: That’s my understanding too.
Kyle Egbert: Which I don’t know how to feel about that.
Chris Holifield: So who would be considered? Is like Boojum a processor, right? They’re like a processor.
Tim Pickett: Right.
Kyle Egbert: They have a processing license, yeah.
Chris Holifield: I’m trying to think of the people that have.
Kyle Egbert: Boojum, I believe Wasatch Extraction.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Kyle Egbert: Zion.
Tim Pickett: And then Zion has their own processing.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, a lot of the cultivators they actually also, in addition to their cultivation license, they’ve also gone through and gotten a processor’s license.
Tim Pickett: Which kind of it makes it an interesting risk for somebody like you, where you have Zion and Wholesome and they’re going to have their own processing.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Are they going to be able to keep up with their own processing? Are they going to want to white label other people’s hemp or convert some hemp over into some THC crude? All these calculations.
Kyle Egbert: A big hurdle for me, one, is the $100,000 to get the license, but then the availability of biomass. Am I going to have access to marijuana biomass in order to process, turn it into a product? Those are the big hurdles.
Tim Pickett: Because it’s too much money to take CBD and convert it over?
Kyle Egbert: Oh no, it’s pretty dang cheap.
Tim Pickett: So, I mean, you could essentially take any biomass.
Kyle Egbert: However, yes, I could, but the problem is, and a big reason of why you don’t see hemp products in the pharmacies is because in order for me to get this into a pharmacy, let’s just say this was a high THC cartridge, I made it in my facility, this would have to go through a cultivation license because of the MJ Freeway Platform. So, on the medical side of things everything is tracked from seed to sell. So, it goes in the ground, there’s a serial number that’s associated with it. It’s tracked in MJ Freeway. It comes time for harvest, again, it’s all being traced from seed through processing, through manufacturing, to consumer.
Tim Pickett: Okay. So let me see if I’ve got this straight. So if I have a farm and I have an acre of hemp that wasn’t specifically put in the ground in MJ Freeway, in the software, then I can’t inject that into your lab and put it in the dispensary because it could’ve came from anywhere.
Kyle Egbert: Exactly, and the only way that you can get around that is if you’re working with a cultivator that they want to work with you and-
Tim Pickett: And so they put the-
Kyle Egbert: … say, “Yeah. I’ll buy your biomass.” And then they can put it in through their system as … Well, we’ll go back to the THC from CBD. If I take CBD, chemically convert it into THC, I have to sell that as hemp waste. That is sold to a cultivator who can then put it in the system as we bought this from this company as hemp waste. There’s the chemical analysis that’s associated with it, whatever. Then they can take that, they can manufacture and do whatever they want with it, but they don’t have to tell the consumer that hey, this is how it got to you.
Tim Pickett: I see.
Kyle Egbert: See what I’m saying?
Tim Pickett: That’s kind of what we talked to Mike Rodriguez about with the smokable flower.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: That’s how a smokable hemp flower gets into the dispensaries and the pharmacies, is sold as..
Kyle Egbert: But are we seeing smokable flower, hemp?
Tim Pickett: I mean, I think there are some-
Chris Holifield: I haven’t seen any at any of the local dispensaries, no.
Tim Pickett: I’ve heard of some at Dragonfly.
Kyle Egbert: Okay.
Chris Holifield: I saw CBG but not CBD.
Tim Pickett: Yes, the Matterhorn. I think you can buy some Matterhorn.
Chris Holifield: Can you?
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Oh, can you?
Kyle Egbert: So it’s been really difficult to take hemp flower and go through all these hoops and get it onto the medical market.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I’m not sure there’s any money in it, but I know it’s being done.
Kyle Egbert: Hemp flower for an eighth is 20 bucks, something like that.
Chris Holifield: Sounds good to me.
Tim Pickett: I mean, if you can buy an eighth.
Chris Holifield: That’s what they should be selling it all for.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, right? Is what we were paying in high school.
Kyle Egbert: If I was doing that myself, I probably wouldn’t buy it because a lot of it isn’t being handled correctly. So you’re getting a lot of that terpene profile, you’re losing a lot of that along the way because it’s not being cured properly, it’s not being stored properly. The growers have a long way to go of learning how to do all of this.
Tim Pickett: This has been a fun conversation.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: I mean, do you have a family? Do you ever see them?
Kyle Egbert: No.
Tim Pickett: It seems like this can take a lot of your time.
Kyle Egbert: It does.
Chris Holifield: But you love it.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, I do love it. Had you asked me five years ago that I’d be in the cannabis industry, I probably would’ve laughed in your face, like yeah, whatever.
Tim Pickett: Were you in Rexburg at the time or down on BYU?
Kyle Egbert: Oh yeah, I was in Rexburg at the time.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. Before that you were at BYU, and no way you would say that.
Kyle Egbert: Right, yeah.
Tim Pickett: Oh, six years from now.
Chris Holifield: You don’t have to give names, but I bet you there’s a lot of pot smokers at Rexburg, I don’t care.
Kyle Egbert: Oh yeah. There’s drug busts up there quite frequently.
Chris Holifield: Same thing with BYU. I’m sure there’s some people down there that …
Kyle Egbert: But really when I moved down here to Utah and all of this, I mean, this all happened as I was transitioning from BYU Idaho to Utah State University, all this happened. I looked at it as a door of opportunity.
Tim Pickett: Oh, of course.
Kyle Egbert: To get into something that’s brand-new. I could really take it wherever I wanted to go. I mean, sky is the limit. So for me, I could’ve been stuck, working as an agronomist trying to sell fertilizer to a farmer or I could’ve been hired onto a big scale farm privately and been consulting that way, or I could determine my own fate by starting a small business and trying to build it up.
Chris Holifield: See, and the first one sounds kind of boring.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, I mean, at least it’s secure.
Chris Holifield: Well yeah, but I mean, what you’re doing is exciting, man.
Kyle Egbert: It is.
Tim Pickett: It is exciting.
Chris Holifield: And it’s groundbreaking.
Tim Pickett: And the opportunity is huge.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: The knowledge that you’re getting and the experience of the process, and learning it all, whether or not your company gets bought, or you join somebody else, or you do this yourself, like you say, the sky is really the limit.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: There is no question about it.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: So, do you modify the terpene profile at all?
Kyle Egbert: In that one, no, but if I wanted to, yes.
Tim Pickett: So from time to time you will.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Depending on if it lines up exactly with what you want.
Kyle Egbert: With what I want to do. Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Oh yeah, this is nice. This is very purple punchy to me.
Kyle Egbert: Oh yeah.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I like.
Chris Holifield: I don’t know if it’s just in my head or whatever, but I feel like it’s calmed me down a little bit.
Kyle Egbert: You should feel this.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, just kind of a little bit of like okay.
Kyle Egbert: I’ve spent 18 months in research and development to get to that.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, this is product testing. I think we should put this in, Chris-
Chris Holifield: Well okay, so we’re testing.
Tim Pickett: … because really we are testing a CBD product, we’re testing a hemp product. This isn’t something you would need a medical card for at all.
Kyle Egbert: Nope.
Chris Holifield: Yeah. So you have the indica Purple Punch as well.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I have the indica Purple Punch, and I’m familiar enough with Purple Punch that this does, it has that flavor.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Definitely have that flavor.
Kyle Egbert: Purple Punch is Granddaddy Purple and Grape Ape, it’s the genetic cross between those two.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, and I mean, it’s a strong indica type strain. It’s going to be very calming, can be a little heavy. Anything with gorilla in the name is going to be heavy, in my opinion.
Kyle Egbert: Right.
Tim Pickett: And the purples.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: So we tell patients purples, gorillas, hazes, they tend to be better for pain, they tend to be a little heavier. So when you’re looking for names … Now, and it was totally anecdotal because people will name something haze that’s really not, but in general.
Kyle Egbert: So, as you can see on our little card, it clearly says indica on it. So, we’re either going to label it sativa, hybrid, or indica. So, for the consumer, I mean, it should be understood that hey, an indica is more of a downer and I do an educational blog, just started it.
Chris Holifield: Where is that at?
Kyle Egbert: On our website.
Chris Holifield: Mycleanleaf.com.
Kyle Egbert: Not published yet, yeah.
Chris Holifield: Okay, yeah.
Kyle Egbert: We had it published.
Tim Pickett: So why don’t you send it to us and we’ll-
Chris Holifield: Actually, now that you say that.
Tim Pickett: … publish it on utahmarijuana.org.
Chris Holifield: I did try to go to mycleanleaf.com, there was nothing there yet.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah. So our domain was actually hosted by GoDaddy, and my wife’s cousin, he convinced me to change it over to another platform.
Chris Holifield: HostGator.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah. So since we’re switching platforms right now, we essentially had to rebuild the website.
Tim Pickett: Right.
Kyle Egbert: And I wasn’t quite ready to release. I was trying so hard this week so that I could release it from this conversation.
Chris Holifield: This will go up next week.
Kyle Egbert: Next week, so by next week it should be up. Yeah, yeah.
Tim Pickett: And we can put a link on the podcast, at utahmarijuana.org.
Kyle Egbert: So, my first blog post actually is titled What Do I Do If My Cart Crystallizes? That’s my very first blog post. These are very prone to crystallization due to the nature of their purity, because they’re so pure, so concentrated it’ll crystallize. So anyway, I put up a blog post. What do you do if your cart crystallizes? It’s not an indication of a defective product. It’s actually an indication of purity, and there is three different methods you can do at home to get it back into a liquified state.
Tim Pickett: Like the blow dryer?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, a blow dryer is not very good because it doesn’t get hot enough. So actually, I tell people hey, if you’ve got 15 bucks go to Harbor Freight and get a heat gun.
Tim Pickett: That’s a good idea.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, they can go up there, it’s 1,000 watts, 15 bucks, two settings. I think the first setting goes to 700 degrees Fahrenheit, the other one goes to a 1,000 degrees. Just blow torch it essentially. The other method, which I prefer and I prefer that people use, is actually taking a mug, filling it halfway up with water, throw it in the microwave, heat it up until it’s practically boiling. Take your cart, put it in a ziplock baggie, make sure all the air is out, and then dunk it into that water for a minute and it’ll –
Tim Pickett: Sous vide.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, it’s a sous vide.
Tim Pickett: Sous vide your cart.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, exactly.
Tim Pickett: That’s a great idea actually.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, and it’s actually a lot of people have seen that and they said, “Hey, I have this other cart, not from you, someone else.”
Tim Pickett: Oh, sure.
Kyle Egbert: “I thought it was junk, I was ready to throw it away. I saw your post and I went and did it, and my cart is totally great. I can use it, I can get the last of it out.”
Tim Pickett: And you can learn a thing or two on Utah in the Weeds.
Chris Holifield: And then eventually when your website is up. I mean, are you on Facebook? Can our people can at least connect with you through Facebook too, Instagram too?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, we’re on Facebook, we’re on Instagram. I mean, again, it’s pretty much me that’s managing it.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, be patient.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, be patient. I’ve got a lot. I’m torn in a million different directions all the time, but I finally got to a point where we have these. One thing you’ll notice on those, so again, going back to it, clearly states what the concentration is of the cannabinoids, what you’re getting in this product. The other thing is on the back you see all those red circles. So, it doesn’t contain vitamin E, or alpha-tocopheryl acetate, MCT oil, PG, PG or VG, or lecithin, and those are common ingredients that are cut into cartridges to help them stabilize essentially. Are you guys familiar with EVALI?
Chris Holifield: I’m not, no.
Kyle Egbert: Or Exogenous lipoidal pneumonia?
Tim Pickett: No.
Kyle Egbert: Oh, come on, guys.
Chris Holifield: I would expect Tim would be.
Kyle Egbert: Before COVID.
Chris Holifield: He’s the medical guy.
Tim Pickett: I mean, are you kidding me?
Kyle Egbert: Before COVID.
Tim Pickett: We are all three of us too busy for this stuff.
Kyle Egbert: So before COVID, what was there?
Tim Pickett: Well there was the, before-
Kyle Egbert: There was the vaping.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, there was the vape lung, there was vape lung.
Kyle Egbert: Yes, and that is because-
Tim Pickett: Yeah, and I do have an associate up at the University of Utah who wrote some articles about it.
Kyle Egbert: Yes. So, I have spent many hours digging through the research, trying to find what they know about EVALI or exogenous lipoid pneumonia.
Tim Pickett: Oh yes, okay, got it. Now I’m following you.
Kyle Egbert: These ingredients that I’ve listed here, crossed out, they have found a connection between these ingredients, these cutting agents and vaping and the lipoidal pneumonia. So, that’s one thing as a consumer you really need to have that awareness of your product, of what is actually in your cartridge because you don’t want to end up in the hospital.
Tim Pickett: No, absolutely no.
Kyle Egbert: It is never a good thing to vape a cart that has MCT oil in it because what you’re doing is you’re vaporizing those fat globules, those are going down into your lungs and could potentially lead to EVALI.
Chris Holifield: They’ve sold me carts at dispensaries here with MCT oil.
Kyle Egbert: Yes, they have.
Tim Pickett: MCT oil, this is a controversial topic that Kyle has brought up.
Chris Holifield: He said that and I was like, “Wait a minute here.”
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, yeah.
Tim Pickett: And I’m going to say-
Chris Holifield: So is that unhealthy for you then?
Tim Pickett: … while I appreciate the opinion, and I think that this is a discussion that we could have, we could really dig into, I would want to have the discussion with the alternative, right?
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Because there are some really bad cutting agents compared to MCT as well.
Kyle Egbert: Yes, right, there are.
Tim Pickett: Right?
Kyle Egbert: Especially vitamin E. That’s a huge one.
Tim Pickett: We eliminated vitamin E in order to kind of go to MCT oil.
Chris Holifield: So what’s the best then?
Tim Pickett: There’s always this debate on is the risk associated with the product equal to eliminating it or justify eliminating it, or using it instead of, what’s your alternative? So now, if you want to go all the way, okay, let’s eliminate MCT.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah, and that’s what I did. I just said look, from what I have found, these are products that are associated with EVALI or with exogenous lipoid pneumonia.
Tim Pickett: So let’s stay away from them altogether.
Kyle Egbert: I said, “Let’s stay away from them. I don’t want that liability.”
Tim Pickett: Well, I commend you.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: I mean, this has been super cool. I mean, you’ve brought the crystals. We’ve got the cream, we’ve got these vape carts. We’ve learned a ton about extraction.
Chris Holifield: We haven’t even got into he’s a patient too.
Tim Pickett: Oh yeah, we haven’t even gotten into that he’s a patient.
Kyle Egbert: My card actually expired, I have to renew it.
Tim Pickett: Oh well, you are in the right place.
Kyle Egbert: But what I was saying is, so when I was living up in Idaho, when I was in Rexburg I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia, which is essentially a diagnosis of exclusion. UCLA, and I think it’s the University of Michigan I want to say, they partnered and they came up with a blood test in order to provide a diagnosis of fibromyalgia. Well, I ended up doing it and the way that they mark it is from a zero to 100. If your score is higher than I think it was 60, 50 or 60, then essentially you have fibromyalgia. I think mine was like 80 something. So they were like, “Yeah, you’ve got fibromyalgia.” So, that chronic pain is a big reason of what guided me into getting into the cannabis industry. I wanted to be able to find relief for myself but I wanted to be able to provide products to people that were affordable, that were clean, that were standardized, and that they could find relief in. That’s really what motivated me to get into this industry.
Chris Holifield: That’s awesome.
Tim Pickett: That’s really cool.
Chris Holifield: Well, anything else? I mean, anything else you want to ask him or anything else you want to talk to him about? Anything else you want?
Tim Pickett: We should bring you back.
Chris Holifield: We could be here all day.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I know, and I think that we ought to bring you back because I’m interested to see how this goes after the legislative session in the cannabinoid. They’re meeting, things will change, they’ll tweak, and so it’ll be a good thing to bring you back and see what changes have been made over time.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: And frankly how you’re doing. How the education is going, how the master’s program is going.
Kyle Egbert: So I actually took a long-term leave of absence on the master’s side in order to focus on this and get it up and running.
Tim Pickett: Cool.
Kyle Egbert: So I did a full year, did my field work, my research, and then put it on pause. So I still have my dissertation and I have to still write my thesis and everything, but for now this is where I’m at, this is my focus.
Tim Pickett: That’s very cool.
Chris Holifield: That’s awesome. So mycleanleaf.com is your website.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: My Clean Leaf on Facebook, Instagram.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: People go connect with him there.
Kyle Egbert: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Awesome.
Tim Pickett: Absolutely. Awesome. Well, you can get ahold of me at utahmarijuana.org and we’ll have this podcast up, utahmarijuana.org/podcast, and we’ll have a link hopefully to your blog article.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: That’s the best place to get ahold of me. How about you, Chris?
Chris Holifield: And then you can listen to my other podcast, I am Salt Lake Podcast, iamsaltlake.com. Go listen to it. I did want to mention though, let me give our voicemail number here just one more time because I want people to call it up. If you ever have questions for Tim or myself or about the podcast or anything, we want to hear from you. You can even shoot it a text if you want. Nobody will ever pick this number up. (385) 215-9557, so give that a call, leave a voicemail.
Tim Pickett: All right everybody, be safe out there.
Chris Holifield: Maybe we’ll play it on the podcast.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, be safe out there.
Chris Holifield: All right.
We are quite enthusiastic about the progress Utah has made in delivering Medical Marijuana to patients in need. There is still much to do. There’s also a lot more to learn. As a potential patient yourself, we want you to have as much information as you can. To that end, this post will discuss the basics of Utah’s Compassionate Use Board (CUB).
You might not realize it, but our Medical Cannabis laws are not as draconian as they might seem. Our state legislators have worked awfully hard to accommodate the needs of patients while addressing concerns posed by the medical community. They are still working to improve things. In fact, new legislation now being considered might make it easier to obtain Medical Marijuana without going through the CUB.
At any rate, the CUB exists to help minors and those whose medical conditions are not on the list of qualified conditions gain access to Medical Cannabis when appropriate. The Board could end up being your best friend should you need to call on them at any point in the future.
The first thing to know about the Compassionate Use Board is likely the most important. The Board is not made up of bureaucrats and politicians. Instead, it’s “seven qualified medical providers who have been appointed by the executive director of the Utah Department of Health,” according to the state’s Medical Cannabis website.
This is good news. Board members are all medical professionals. They are the ones we should be asking to make decisions about compassionate use. We hope that all current and future Board members have been educated about cannabis and the human cannabinoid system, the same way QMPs and cannabis pharmacists have been.
Next up, the CUB’s responsibilities are narrow and well-defined. Their main function is to review petitions for compassionate Medical Marijuana use. The petitions come from:
The CUB can approve petitions based on two circumstances:
It’s our understanding that the CUB has rejected very few of the petitions they have reviewed so far. Most get approved. When rejections do occur, it is mainly because of a lack of information from the applicant.
One of the more attractive aspects of petitioning the Board is that you do not have to meet with them in person. In fact, neither you nor your QMP have any direct contact with Board members. Rather, you submit your petition along with a QMP Recommendation Letter for the board to review at its next meeting. The letter should include all of the information your doctor deems relevant.
Board meetings are private meetings, meaning no one other than Board members are allowed to be present. All petition information is kept strictly confidential. After reviewing your information among themselves, the Board makes a determination of approval. That’s about it.
Utah’s Compassionate Use Board exists to help people obtain Medical Cannabis under unusual circumstances. We recommend you first try to get a Medical Marijuana Card through your QMP and have them help you decide if Board assistance is needed.
The Medical Cannabis scene in Utah is about so much more than legislation, growers, and dispensaries. It’s mainly about patients and their needs. Tim and Chris drive that point home in episode 42 of Utah in the Weeds as they speak with guest and UTTHC patient Chelsea Porter.
Porter is a young professional who deals with depression and other mental health issues. [03:42] Her introduction to marijuana was via recreational use in California and Spain. She used the drug to self-medicate before she even realized that’s what she was doing. When the opportunity for Prop 2 in Utah came along, Porter advocated for it. [15:26]
During the discussion, the three talked about a range of topics, including how THC and CBD Medical Cannabis products help Porter deal with her mental health issues. [12:29] Porter spoke of a support system that includes her parents, friends, and coworkers. She also talked about how the Medical Cannabis community being so open about what they do is finally beginning to destigmatize the drug.
Like so many other patients, Porter is still figuring out what works best for her. She has a daily routine that she tracks with a journal. [18:39] As she learns more, she is adjusting her routine accordingly. However, cost is an issue. Bringing that up got Tim and Chris talking about how Medical Marijuana is pretty expensive in Utah. The general hope is that prices come down. [24:18]
One of the more compelling aspects to this particular episode is its underlying theme that Medical Cannabis patients are similar in some ways but quite different in others. [25:41] What works for one doesn’t necessarily work for everyone else. Tim, Chris, and Chelsea agreed among themselves that patients should be allowed to try different things in search of whatever works best for them.
Tim Pickett: I think we’re going to be Episode 42 with Chelsea.
Chris: Yep, 42. So this is-
Tim Pickett: Episode 42.
Chris: Of Utah in the Weeds.
Tim Pickett: Yes. I’m Tim Pickett with my friend and co-host of 2021.
Chris: How you doing, Tim?
Tim Pickett: I’m doing great, Chris. How are you?
Chris: Well, I’m doing great. I’m doing great. But I’m excited for the episode today. I like talking to patients. Tim, what are your thoughts on some of these patients we’ve talked to? I think it’s been really, really informative to bring them on, hear their stories and find out how similar we are as people and the things we go through are so similar. It’s been helpful to relate a little bit. I don’t know what your thoughts are.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. I totally agree. I think everybody has a different story and we are building that community that we talked about. That cannabis community in Utah by talking to real patients and not only just people who are involved in the industry and growing and things like that, but the real people, the real end users, because that’s why the program was legalized.
Chris: Why it was put together.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. Plus de-stigmatizing the plant requires people to use it and be able to talk about it and the patients are the best for that. So I’m excited. We have Chelsea Porter here today. Chelsea is a patient of ours in Utah. Welcome Chelsea.
Chelsea Porter: Hi. How are you guys?
Chris: We’re doing good, we’re doing good. We’re excited to get to know you and get to know your story. I mean, it’s funny, right? You talk about de-stigmatizing it, Tim, you look at Chelsea and you wouldn’t think, “Oh, she’s a cannabis user.” She doesn’t fit the stereotype from what I can see. So, it’s…
Tim Pickett: No, not at all.
Chelsea Porter: What stereotype do I fit?
Chris: I don’t know, I don’t know. I’m just trying to-
Tim Pickett: You know, we’re looking at you through the computer screen too-
Chris: Yeah. I don’t know. Maybe that wasn’t even a fair thing to say, but it was just people are so quick to judge who uses cannabis, dirt bags or I don’t know.
Chelsea Porter: Yeah. I think it’s pretty similar to tattoos. So, you look at people one way that have tattoos and ever-changing these days. Yeah, I never really even thought of myself as a patient, even when I was advocating for Prop 2 to pass. But, such is life, things happen. My reason for using it is for mental health reasons.
Tim Pickett: And you’re from here, yeah?
Chelsea Porter: I am. Yeah. I grew up, born and raised in West Point, Utah.
Tim Pickett: Oh wow. Yeah. Right here.
Chelsea Porter: Yes.
Tim Pickett: West Point, there’s wasn’t a ton of cannabis users there, I bet, when you were growing up.
Chelsea Porter: Only the hood rats. Only the kids that were up to no good. And every once in a while you’d hear about that one kid that grew it and got caught, but.
Chris: The rumor that always went around to scare all the other kids so they wouldn’t grow it, right?
Chelsea Porter: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris: It’s kinda like “oh yeah, scare ‘em!”
Chelsea Porter: We got our first streetlight, stoplight, when I was in high school, so it was just churches out there. It was nothing but churches and houses.
Tim Pickett: Churches, houses, no stoplights.
Chris: So who introduced you to cannabis then, Chelsea? I mean, was it for fun or for medicine that you got introduced to it at first?
Chelsea Porter: Yeah, so I left Davis County and went to Los Angeles when I was 18 for school. I went to the Fashion Institute out there and obviously drug use was at my school and I used it recreationally there and then more so as I was then living in Spain for a year as an au pair and it was more common to use there recreationally. Then it wasn’t until I came home some things had happened in life that gave me some PTSD and I was dealing with those sorts of undiagnosed symptoms actually and what I thought was just anxiety. So I was self-treating that way, but I was going to California and picking it up. I was going to Colorado or finding it from anyone who had a hookup here. I didn’t necessarily have one myself.
Chelsea Porter: Yeah, that’s how I started using it and just self-medicating essentially. And then when Prop 2 passed and things started opening up this year, that’s when I started looking into actually doing things legally.
Tim Pickett: When did you realize you were using it to… Was there a time when you started to realize, “Wait, I feel better. I’m not just using this recreationally.” Like, “I feel better when I use this,” or “My PTSD is not triggered.” Or did you have a —
Chelsea Porter: Yeah, so.
Tim Pickett: … a definitive moment?
Chelsea Porter: Yeah, one of the things that happened to me was I would have really vivid nightmares, night terrors. So I used it at first to just go to sleep. I guess people who listen, maybe I’m different, but usually when I first started using weed it was like a nap. You just expected a nap to happen right after you use it.
Chris: Oh, yeah.
Chelsea Porter: You don’t really know how to handle the heaviness of your body or be functioning. So I would use it as a sleep aid and then it got to the point where… So I had a really great roommate and she would essentially carry me up to my bedroom from the couch. I’d come home from work, where I was busy and enjoying the distraction, come home and not really be able to sit with my thoughts and feelings and things and so I would just essentially sedate myself with my vape pen. So that’s when I knew, I’m like, “Oh, okay. This is me avoiding things that need to be addressed instead of just going out and having fun.”
Chris: What do your family and friends, I mean, are they pretty supportive of your cannabis use or is it just kind of quiet or how’s that working out?
Chelsea Porter: So, it’s been an interesting path. I haven’t talked to everyone about it. I only told my mom late last year that I was using it because my parents are both really active in the church, the Mormon church. So I didn’t know how they would feel about it. I knew my dad had partaken in the ’70s, but I didn’t know to what extent or anything. So I knew that he may think that’s the way I’m using it solely and have some stigma tied to it in his brain, as well as with my mom.
Chelsea Porter: My friends were pretty aware as some of them were people I was doing it with recreationally. But I’ve been a lot more open about just my life in general because right before I started self-medicating to the point where I was just on the couch, I was actually put into UNI for my mental health. That’s the mental hospital at the University of Utah here.
Chelsea Porter: I knew that that was when I was going to stop faking how I felt and telling people lies and things like that and if they couldn’t handle where I was, then they didn’t need to be in my team. Not everyone can handle it and that’s okay, but I needed people that were going to be able to do whatever I needed them to do for me so that I could have that support so I wasn’t suicidal anymore. So that I’ve just been straightforward, I’m like, “This is what helps me.” I’m back on Zoloft too, which helps in a different aspect. I do feel like marijuana just gives me that, you guys have talked about it in a few episodes too, just kind of like that bliss feeling.
Chris: Sure.
Chelsea Porter: So it’s almost like a break from the constant sadness that I feel, even though things are going well in life. I just have clinical depression and so I really enjoy when I’m able to just sit, even in my own apartment, hang out with my dog in quarantine and feel uplifted and good instead of like, “Oh, this sucks, but I don’t know why.”
Tim Pickett: Chelsea, I’ve read your article. Okay.
Chelsea Porter: Which article?
Tim Pickett: Love What Matters,-
Chelsea Porter: Okay, yeah.
Tim Pickett: … this is you, right?
Chelsea Porter: This is me.
Tim Pickett: You want to talk about this a little bit? This is a bit like it’s kind of a big deal. It’s not that you’re not forthcoming about this. Talk to me a little bit about this article. Do you want to talk about it?
Chelsea Porter: Yeah, I do. Sorry, I’m getting emotional. So I was born with one finger on my left hand. I’m so sorry. Was not expecting this to be this heavy right off the bat. So I was born with one finger on my left hand, which I’ve come to call it my limb difference. I grew up calling it a deformity and a disability, a handicap, all those things.
Chelsea Porter: I was blessed with the family I have and the people around me that stuck up for me when things got tough because there’s a lot of… Stop crying. There’s a lot of really good people out in the world that really make up for the few crappy ones that you come in contact with. I think that article has such an emotional tie to me because it’s basically just me. The whole of like my worst moments in life in one article, but so many great things have happened.
Chelsea Porter: I’m part of a community now, thanks to social media allowing me to get in contact with others who have limb differences, who just know what it’s like to go through the day-to-day struggles of not being able to open your bag of cereal or screwing open the milk. It’s just the little things like that that can pile up, especially on a bad day and just kind of break your back.
Chelsea Porter: Depression has run in my family though so I’ve just had that in my genetics. Then it’s the trials that go along with living with a limb difference and just everyone has issues. We all go through hard times, but I think my limb difference definitely played a big part in my mental health as an adult and as a child.
Tim Pickett: I’m sure it played a role the whole time, right? There’s these functional things that you talk about, opening the jar or things like that. But that’s just a piece because then you have to leave home as a child. Go to school, that’s a whole other… The social aspect of life with a limb difference like yours is-
Chelsea Porter: Yes.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, everybody has their challenges. Not everybody is born with a limb difference. So don’t discount that.
Chelsea Porter: Okay. Yeah. I do think I am very fortunate though to have been born with it instead of lost my other digits in an accident. I am grateful for that aspect, but you’re right. I shouldn’t discount my difference. I shouldn’t do that.
Tim Pickett: Well, like I have my struggles, but I don’t have yours.
Chelsea Porter: Right.
Tim Pickett: So, this is really a cannabis podcast, but this is such a huge part of how you got involved. I think I would imagine in this cannabis world from the… Here’s the real life of our podcasting, you can hear my dog in the background probably. This cannabis world, did you-
Chelsea Porter: How do we tie them together?
Tim Pickett: Yeah. How do you tie these two things together?
Chelsea Porter: I said this to a coworker. She says, “You should say that in the podcast.” Because it was unintentional, but it goes hand in hand to me, my mental health, my limb difference and the medicine I take to make my life good. Because I have mental health issues, because some of those stem from being born with a limb difference and actively being an advocate for limb differences, it will impact my mental health and the things that come up with that. However, if it wasn’t for cannabis, I wouldn’t be dealing as well as I am today.
Tim Pickett: That’s a big statement, I think, for people to hear because cannabis has been kept from us for so long as a medicine, right? As a legitimate medicine. So here’s somebody who grows up here in Utah. Is born with a limb difference. Goes through traumatic events in your late teens, early 20s. Thinks about all kinds of really terrible things to do to yourself, frankly, and yet finds a natural, a plant-based medicine, that’s relatively safe.
Chelsea Porter: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: And you can use it and feel better.
Chelsea Porter: Not only that, it’s helped me get out of a really terrible eating disorder because of the munchie aspects that comes from cannabis.
Chris: Wait, how did it help? It helped you? It seems like it would make you want to eat more of the food there.
Chelsea Porter: So, my eating disorder was not eating.
Chris: Oh, not eating.
Chelsea Porter: Yeah. So, when I’d get extra sad or extra anxious, my appetite would go away and then I just was malnourished. It gives you just like that guilt-free, you don’t even remember until you see all the wrappers the next morning, the damage you did.
Chelsea Porter: No, it helps me, like whenever I was like, “Hey, you don’t want to eat, but you got to and you don’t want to make yourself feel sick.” So we just need a little bit of cannabis so that we can go eat that big meal and feel good. Or it’s not even a big, it seemed like a big meal. It was just sort of regular-sized meal.
Tim Pickett: Chris, did you know this, that on average cannabis users are thinner? They have a lower BMI than non-cannabis users.
Chris: Really?
Tim Pickett: Meaning, yeah. We’re not fat people. We don’t overeat. It’s a weird thing I like to bring up when people are really worried about eating a lot. It works, it’s so good for nausea and for getting the munchies and certain strains are better than others for adding that too. But, in general, it doesn’t tend to make people gain weight unless it’s something on your mind or it’s something that you’re using cannabis for.
Chelsea Porter: Right.
Tim Pickett: There’s a little Tim’s tidbits right there. Chelsea, what do you do now? Were you involved in Prop 2?
Chelsea Porter: Yeah. I mean, I, at least, advocated for it. I voted for it. Talked about it very vocally on all my social media platforms. I mean, that’s just how I was raised, was encouraged to advocate for those things you believe in. But yeah, I would like to think that I had a part in passing that law.
Chris: Did you think it would pass in Utah? I mean, I didn’t. I didn’t think Utah would ever have medical cannabis.
Chelsea Porter: I definitely was surprised because, I mean, we’re all hopeful, right? But then, you’re like, “Well, they’re going to do, what they’re going to do.” That episode you guys have with Stormy Simon who talks about how like, why didn’t we just vote on the edited version of the bill? That would have been fair.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. It doesn’t totally seem fair. What changes would you like to see now, Chelsea?
Chelsea Porter: I would like to see more conditions on the list. I think it shouldn’t just be to things that other people have deemed severe enough. I’ve gone through that on my own trying to get a prosthesis. Why are people with two fully functioning hands trying to build me a hand that they think will be best? You know what I mean? They have no idea what it’s like living my life and why are people who are claiming to be so mentally stable resisting medicine that is proven to help people with X, Y and Z? Why don’t they get it?
Chris: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: You make a very good argument there. Like you guys, you have no idea if cannabis will help me. Why do you get to decide?
Chris: Yeah, why do they?
Chelsea Porter: And that’s the thing we’re learning about it, is that it’s impacting everyone so differently so why not give that person the option to see if it will help them?
Chris: I couldn’t agree more.
Tim Pickett: I think Chris and I, we’re fans of that right there. I totally agree with that. Here is a relatively safe substance that you can try and if it works okay, then that’s fine. And it doesn’t work for everybody. I’m sure you could come up with a couple of times when or a couple of scenarios when you wouldn’t want to take cannabis.
Chris: Isn’t that what they do though with prescriptions? It’s like, “Here, take this. Let’s see if this works. Let’s see if this works.” Right, like-
Tim Pickett: It’s exactly what they do.
Chelsea Porter: But then it comes with a whole 30 second commercial of things that are going to happen to you that are really bad.
Chris: Yeah. But nobody says anything about those things, right?
Tim Pickett: No. Yeah, not at all. So, what’s your favorite? What do you use now for… What’s your regimen? What do you use, Chelsea?
Chris: What’s your setup?
Tim Pickett: What’s your setup?
Chelsea Porter: It kind of varies.
Tim Pickett: What do we ask? Chris, is that it? What’s your setup?
Chris: I don’t know, it sounded good.
Chelsea Porter: What’s your concoction?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, what’s your concoction?
Chelsea Porter: It just depends on where I’m at financially because it is quite expensive. I feel like it ebbs and flows, what I’m treating with things that are going on in my life. I use it every single night to keep the night terrors away. When I stopped using it for a period that’s when they started to come back.
Chelsea Porter: I worked retail during COVID during holidays. So, I came home a few days just completely busted mentally and just feeling like, “I don’t know how I’m going to go back to work tomorrow.” It’s just crazy working at a mall during all of this and as a manager as well and so you have that responsibility of a lot of people and that weighs on you mentally. Being away from family over holidays was a lot.
Chelsea Porter: So, what I’m using now is depending on how bad I’m feeling. Edibles tend to do a better trick for me just because it’s a little bit stronger and lasts a little bit longer. Sometimes I’ll pair that with my vape pen because I need a little bit more instant help than the hour and a half to two hours it takes for that edible to kick in. Then I have my tincture that I use every day before I go to work, just because it’s very low in THC, but high in CBD. It just helps me get out of bed, get showered, go to work, and do the things that we got to do to be functioning adults.
Tim Pickett: How did you come to this regimen? How long did it take you to decide, “Okay, this is what I do.”
Chelsea Porter: It was pretty quick, just because I already had one because-
Tim Pickett: Mm-hmm (affirmative), and you already knew how to use cannabis in general?
Chelsea Porter: Yeah. I will say the biggest difference I found was that the products I’m getting from the dispensaries here, because it’s medicinal versus recreational dispensaries out in Southern California, for example, I just have higher CBD in my stuff now and I really can see the impact from that instead of it just being kind of like a mental escape.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. You’re talking about using high dose CBD to lower dose THC.
Chelsea Porter: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Especially when you talk about a morning dose. That seems to work better for you in general. We’ve talked about this before, but it seems to be CBD, the more psychological the issue, the more CBD helps.
Chris: Really?
Tim Pickett: With THC. The more physical, this is totally anecdotal, but it really simplifies things to start with, I think. Is the more physical the ailment, the more THC is your go-to. The more mental your ailment, the more CBD you need to mix in just because of the way CBD kind of works as the buffer, as a rule of thumb.
Tim Pickett: So, I guess, I’m not super surprised. Sometimes I’m surprised when people say things that follow what I think and follow kind of the book and the evidence. I’m like, “Oh wow, that’s in the book,” but it shouldn’t surprise us, I guess. Do you have a favorite strain?
Chelsea Porter: No. I’m going to be so honest that it’s probably going to be embarrassing when this comes out, but I couldn’t really tell you what a strain is. I am still so, so new to actually educating myself on the things I’m using instead of just getting my hands on whatever I can. But I feel like I learn so much when I’m at the dispensary at the clinic, but that I don’t quite know what information to trust on the internet. If it’s not from you guys’ websites.
Chelsea Porter: Quite frankly, I wish I had more money to spend in the dispensaries to figure out what would work best for me because I know there’s like, I go to WholesomeCo in Bountiful, I’ve never been to any other dispensaries. I just instantly felt welcomed and loved there and so I just have continued to go there.
Chelsea Porter: I know there’s a flower that helps with PTSD symptoms. But then I’ve also been looking into those vaporizers, because I’d like to get more towards those instead of the vape pens. Because I could get more of those medical properties from the plant at the different temperatures and doing it that way versus, I feel like the high temperatures of the pens almost burn the back of my throat or I can feel it in my lungs later in the day, so just trying to get to a better way of breaking down the plant to help me in a better way.
Chelsea Porter: Honestly, listening to the podcast has helped educate me a ton and just the more I go to the dispensary. But then again, you have to pay cash there and if you just don’t have it in your bank account, you have to use what you have at home and just make things work.
Chris: I get that. I’ve been there, yeah.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I totally get it. It’s like I have no response to that. I’m sorry.
Chelsea Porter: It’s okay.
Tim Pickett: It is. It’s expensive. And a vaporizer, a good vaporizer, you’ll love listening to Valerie from last week’s episode talk a lot about vaporizers and what types and why the different temperatures. And you’re right, I say treat the dispensary more like a convenience store, more like a Maverick than a Costco. You don’t go buy something that’s… Go buy a little bit and then try it out and see if you like it. Keep a journal.
Chris: That’s a good idea.
Chelsea Porter: Yeah.
Chris: It’s a good idea. Everybody should be keeping a journal for this stuff.
Chelsea Porter: I’ve been keeping a journal with the tinctures.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. A journal with the tinctures?
Chelsea Porter: Yeah. Instead of, but that’s only because I am completely gone by the time I’m done with my pen or an edible. But the tincture, I can track because I’m going to work and I’m up and I’m functioning. Whereas the pen and the edibles are more for like sedation and severe calming. So I know that those are going to do what they need to do, but I need to monitor the dosage and that for the tincture for me to go to work. Can’t be walking into work running a team high, you know?
Chris: Nah.
Tim Pickett: No. I mean, you could. Some people do it. Maybe you could run a country. This is so fascinating, Chris.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Because I love the different people that we get to talk to.
Chris: It’s interesting because they all have a difference, but then, like I said in the beginning of this, we all have similarities.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. So with Chelsea, I mean, I’m fascinated because you’re not a newbie, right? You know what you’re doing. Obviously you don’t need to know the names of the strains. You just need to have access to good products at a reasonable price, obviously.
Chelsea Porter: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: And that’s now what you get. It sounds like you really like the consistency of being able to go to Wholesome and get the same thing every time. Know what you’re getting.
Chelsea Porter: And the staff there is just so friendly. I think that’s a huge part of the whole experience. I even said it on a video for you guys’ Instagram. I was walking into some place similar to a place that you’d walk into maybe on base. With people with button up business shirts and slacks and I was going to have to prove why I have PTSD and need marijuana to get me through the night. That’s what I was expecting and I walked in with open arms, diversity and just casual people who are there to openly discuss mental health without any stigma. “What can we do to help you? Here’s how you do it.” They walk you through the process and then you go to the dispensary. It’s guarded with guards and it’s kind of intimidating. Those guards are the nicest people I’ve ever met. And everyone just was so kind walking you in because you look like you’ve never been in one before, like you don’t know how it’s going, where to go. The first three times I forgot I needed to get money out for cash-
Tim Pickett: Do they have an ATM there?
Chelsea Porter: They do.
Tim Pickett: I think they do.
Chelsea Porter: Mm-hmm (affirmative). They would be like, “You can bring your dog in.” And I’m like, “Nah, I’ll just get my stuff.” It’s so nice. They’re so nice there. It’s almost like every time I go back to get my medicine, I get to see my friends. Maybe they don’t feel the same way that I do.
Chris: No, Wholesome’s great. Wholesome’s great. They do have great people. Great location.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, absolutely.
Chris: What would you tell somebody that say is listening to this podcast, maybe they’re on the fence of trying medical cannabis, trying it out, but they’re kind of not sure. What would you tell them? Do you have any words of wisdom or advice or anything, Chelsea?
Chelsea Porter: You’re not alone. I think lots of groups of people need to be told they’re not alone. There’s always people out there that you could talk to that have been in a similar situation as you. It’s kind of a nerve-racking thing.
Chelsea Porter: We’re making history right now. We get to be a part of that and pave the way as well. But it takes courage and bravery to be a part of something like that because it’s so much easier to just go along with what everyone else thinks. Go to your doctor, get prescribed Lortab, whatever it is. You may get addicted, you may not, but that’s still socially acceptable than to be smoking weed or ingesting weed, however you’re doing it because of the stigma behind it. When really opioids are killing people left and right here and it’s just devastating.
Chelsea Porter: I think you always have someone, even if your community that you’re in feels like you’re going to get kicked out or judged for it, whatever that community is, there’s one waiting for you. We want you to be well. Whatever that looks like.
Chris: That’s well put.
Tim Pickett: There’s always a community waiting for you that wants you to feel better.
Chelsea Porter: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris: I think, I don’t know, that’s a good place to probably even end the episode, Tim. I don’t know. What do you think? Unless, do you have any other for her or do you have anything more you want to mention, Chelsea, while the microphone’s still hot here or anything you want to talk about?
Chelsea Porter: I’m sorry I cried.
Chris: No, don’t don’t apologize. That’s-
Tim Pickett: No, don’t be. I’m sorry that I bring… I wanted to get into the conversation a little bit before and see if you were going to bring it up.
Chelsea Porter: I honestly didn’t. I had just had so much on my list of things I wanted to talk about that it kind of spaced, honestly. I think I’ve touched all of them at this point though.
Chris: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: That’s great. It’s been fun having you on.
Chris: Yeah. Is there any way, like if a listener wanted to connect with you, is there a possible way they could connect with you? An email address or website or anything?
Chelsea Porter: Yeah, so I am pretty active on Instagram. So, if they wanted to follow me, I’m @who_the_chel, with underscores in between all of that.
Tim Pickett: Okay.
Chelsea Porter: I’ve been talking more and more about my limb difference and just giving people a look into that because it’s not who I am, but it’s a big part of who I am. I want to be able to educate people and help make the world a nicer place for kids like me so that if I can help kids avoid situations I’ve been in, because of ignorance, that I can do that for those kids and that would be enough for me. As well as, I just feel like I’ve kind of had enough shit handed to me in life that I can be an advocate for a few things and that’s sexual assault victims. That’s mental health awareness and suicide prevention. I think the more we talk about these things that are difficult to talk about the better off we’ll all be.
Chris: Couldn’t agree more. Couldn’t agree more. How can-
Tim Pickett: Absolutely.
Chris: … listeners connect with you, Tim, if they’re interested in finding out more about cannabis or getting their medical card or any of that good stuff?
Tim Pickett: Yeah. Utahmarijuana.org is the place to find out about the Medical Cannabis Program here in Utah, more information about how to become a patient or what conditions qualify like Chelsea’s. Also, we’re putting up Utahmarijuana.org/podcast will be the new home of Utah in the Weeds from an online standpoint. That should be rip-roaring ready to go soon.
Chris: I’m excited for that. I’m really excited. That’ll be easy for everybody to access everything and listen to some of the back episodes because, I mean, especially for the new people that are finding this podcast. Go through some of the back episodes. I mean, there’s like what, 40 something before this one. So there’s some good conversations in there. A lot to learn. So go listen to some of those.
Chris: Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts if that’s how you listen and go check out my other podcast, I am Salt Lake Podcast, iamsaltlake.com. We’ve been having some fun conversations. Just go check out the website, go check that out. Yeah, subscribe to this podcast, Utah in the Weeds, if you haven’t because we’re here every week. We’ve been doing a pretty good job of that, Tim. We haven’t missed a week.
Tim Pickett: No. I think we’re well on our way now.
Chris: Do you remember when we were missing weeks, all those in the beginning? It was like, “Gosh, we missed another week.” It was like-
Tim Pickett: I know. It’s getting a little easier and it’s just as fun, but we’ve definitely started putting some episodes down.
Chris: Yeah, yeah.
Tim Pickett: So I’m excited about 2021, putting all these out.
Chris: Very excited. Any final words, Chelsea, or anything you want to say?
Chelsea Porter: No, thank you so much for having me on.
Chris: You bet.
Tim Pickett: All right. Everybody stay safe out there.
