Episode 58 of Utah and the Weeds features a discussion with Jeff Hedge from Sunny Days Medical Cannabis Delivery. This is a great discussion for anyone interested in getting home delivery or taking a job in the Medical Cannabis industry.
Before getting to the discussion, Tim and Chris mentioned several new pharmacies that just opened in Utah. [01:18] As you might imagine, the two are quite excited to report the news. They do an excellent job of keeping the Utah Medical Cannabis community up to date.
Moving on to the conversation, Jeff Hedge was introduced to cannabis while in college in the 1980s. [03:41] He used recreationally at first, then discovered that cannabis was helping him medicinally. Meanwhile, his company began developing mobile apps around the idea of food home delivery. [07:33] In the back of his mind, Hedge believed in the potential of Medical Cannabis home delivery.
Hedge attempted to begin a delivery service in California. He found the market too chaotic and unstructured. [09:17] More importantly, his company didn’t have deep enough pockets to compete. That is what motivated him to ultimately turn to Utah. Hedge believes Utah is doing it right, and he thinks the Beehive State is ready for home delivery.
Sunny Days is currently in the process of hiring drivers. [13:24] Hedge made it clear that the company is offering full-time jobs rather than gig opportunities. Drivers must be licensed couriers in the state of Utah. Furthermore, Sunny Days will provide the vehicles.
The company is not yet delivering but should be ready to go by June 1. [16:21] Whether you are hoping to get home delivery of your product or you’re looking for a full-time job in the Medical Cannabis industry, Sunny Days might be something you are interested in. Keep your eyes open for it.
Chris Holifield:
All right, let’s welcome everybody out today to Episode 58 of Utah in the Weeds. My name is Chris Holifield.
Tim Pickett:
And I’m Tim Pickett. And today we’ve got a great discussion with a whole new side of the cannabis market and we’re all in Utah, Chris.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, Jeff Hedge. He’s the owner of Sunny Days Medical Cannabis Delivery here in Utah. This is going to be exciting for Utah. I’m excited for it. I wish I had enough time in my life to actually go drive. I think it’d be fun to deliver cannabis to patients. But this is going to be a great conversation if you’re interested in getting home delivery. And it’s also a great conversation if you’re interested in getting in the industry. Listen to this, get a hold of Jeff, let him know you’re interested in being a driver and then that will help get your foot in the door, I think.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, I think a lot of people who are trying to get an in in the industry, just looking for a way, driving is a pretty good way. It’d really be a fun job. I mean, think about it, you’re showing up to people, there’s no question, they’re going to be happy to see you.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, and then bringing them a little present and all that. We’ll get into that conversation here and you’ll hear it all. Jeff will explain how it’s going to work and how you can work or get delivery.
Tim Pickett:
And a little bit of housekeeping, Chris, so, man, we’ve got a flurry of dispensary or pharmacies open in Utah. From north to south. Beehive Farmacy is open in Brigham City. Go up there and say hi to Mindy Mondeo, she’s the pharmacist in charge up there.
Chris Holifield:
Awesome.
Tim Pickett:
Exciting to see her back in the pharmacy game. And if you go south, you’ve got Pure Utah in Payson, they’re opened. And then just north of there the Cannabist.
Chris Holifield:
Cannabist. Yeah, what a name. I like that name, Cannabist. Yeah, they’re in Springville.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. And they just opened. So you have three, they have opened in the past month. And then you’ve got Justice Grown, that’s going to open in St. George any time soon and Bloom Medicinal, which is going to open in Cedar City. And I’ve seen pictures of the inside of Bloom. It’s going to be beautiful. It really is going to be a destination pharmacy. It’s big. And they’re going to have a lot of product down there.
Chris Holifield:
What about the South Jordan one? Didn’t-
Tim Pickett:
South Jordan with Justice on 130 South.
Chris Holifield:
It should be open in summer, right?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, it should be open by June 1st really. So I know they’re working hard on that location. I haven’t had an update recently on exactly the date that it’s going to open. But we’re essentially going to be full maxed out here in the next month.
Chris Holifield:
And you have a list of all the dispensaries at utahmarijuana.org for people to go there and hit that dispensary tab and boom, you got there go… And I think the websites are there too, right? For people-
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, their website links are there, the map of how to get there is there, if you want to review the dispensaries right there on utahmarijuana.org, you can leave a review for those dispensaries. I think it’s going to be a good place for people to go see all of them in one location because there’s not anything like that outside of there. So yeah, go to utahmarijuana.org and search out the dispensaries.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, go there and then go to /podcast, listen to the back episodes of the podcast, subscribe, share your favorite episodes with friends. Share it with three people. That’s my challenge this week. Each listener share with three of their friends.
Tim Pickett:
Absolutely.
Chris Holifield:
But, yeah, let’s get into this conversation with Jeff Hedge. I thought it was great one, yeah. Sunny Days Delivery, great conversation. So let’s get into it.
Tim Pickett:
Have your medicine delivered.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, there you go, guys.
Tim Pickett:
When did you get introduced to cannabis?
Jeff Hedge:
Right.
Chris Holifield:
And on what level? I mean, where were you? When were you? How was it? So tell us [crosstalk 00:03:48].
Tim Pickett:
Let’s jump in.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, you’re good.
Jeff Hedge:
Yeah, no, well, my first experience with cannabis was not medicinal. It was in Houston at The Police and UB40 concert.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, nice.
Jeff Hedge:
So, it was a great place to have it come about. My roommate at Texas A&M picked me up from class, it was about two o’clock on a Friday and said, “Hey, you want to go to The Police concert?” And I was like, “Yes, absolutely.” So we drove to Houston and sitting in the crowd, and it just comes down the line and he takes a hit and hands it to me, and I was like, “No, no, no, no.” And he’s like “Here, here’s.” “Okay.” tried it and it was whatever.
Chris Holifield:
What year is this? What year?
Jeff Hedge:
Early ’80s.
Chris Holifield:
Okay, so that’s why I was wondering if it’s in The Police, okay, that was probably ’80s, but UB40 a little older but maybe not. I guess they’ve been around for a while.
Jeff Hedge:
They had been around for a while, but they were hot at that time, so…
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that’s awesome, man.
Jeff Hedge:
And the Police were big so [crosstalk 00:04:48].
Chris Holifield:
Was it something that you just tried the one time or did it become part of a daily thing or a weekly thing [crosstalk 00:04:54]?
Jeff Hedge:
Yeah, no, no, no. I mean, I’m not sure if I felt anything that night or not. But it was a fun concert. Get back to school and probably later that semester, a group of people came over to our place and everybody’s hanging around and somebody pulled some out and started smoking that. And so it was, “Okay, this is neat.” We went outside, enjoyed the day and then through… In college, you just start running into it. Exactly. It was more, like I said, not medicinal at first, more recreational and enjoying it with friends. But over the years, from knee injuries to arthritis, different types of things, it’s become more of a medicinal product for me than how it started out.
Chris Holifield:
At what point though, did you realize, “Hey, this can be used medicinally.” I mean, was there a moment or was it just one of those things that just happen?
Jeff Hedge:
No, I think it’s more of that, just happened. And then maybe at times, not consuming cannabis realizing, “Wow, my knee hurts more than I realized.”
Tim Pickett:
Than it did before the other day when cannabis was around.
Jeff Hedge:
And I’m anti-pill. I try to stay as far away from pills as possible. Late in my dad’s life, I mean, I don’t know, it seems like it was over 10 pills a day, it was just a lot of pills that he was taking for different things. And they all affect him differently and just watching that, I made a decision at that point, “Try to stay as far away from pills as you can, for as long as you can.” I know they serve some benefit, but I think that that cannabis can be the alternative to that.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, absolutely.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I think so.
Jeff Hedge:
Especially when you talk about things like arthritis pain and… [crosstalk 00:06:46].
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, I mean, isn’t that how pills were designed? They were marketed in the beginning for approval based on the idea that you would take this for a while, and then you would cure or treat whatever you were treating, and then you’d get off of it. Unfortunately, that’s just not how-
Chris Holifield:
Now it’s like once you get on a pill, you’re on it the rest of your life, man.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, there’s no getting off.
Jeff Hedge:
And then you start talking about pain pills, they can be a real problem getting off of them, so…
Tim Pickett:
So you grew up in Houston.
Jeff Hedge:
Dallas.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, in Dallas.
Jeff Hedge:
Yes.
Tim Pickett:
You’re introduced to cannabis in Texas and you’re there but you didn’t… You got into cannabis and then had to leave? Tell us about that.
Jeff Hedge:
Had to leave?
Tim Pickett:
I mean, you got introduced to cannabis as a business, sorry, and then Texas wasn’t the place.
Jeff Hedge:
Yeah, well, we were in Texas and it’s not legal. It’s legal, medicinally but in a very, very small group of people. And actually, my brother was living in California at the time, I went out and visited him, went to Venice Beach, went to MedMen. And I was just like, “My goodness.” I’m walking into a store and it’s like the Apple Store, and I get to look at all these different strains and pick out what I want, and they put it in a big bright red bag that I walk out the door with.
Chris Holifield:
It’s such a cool experience, right?.
Jeff Hedge:
And I was just like, “I love California. I’m moving to California.” So, I was always intrigued by the industry, and we can be in Texas and watch and read about what was going on in California at the time. And all these companies were just getting rolling, MedMen was getting rolling, Eaze was getting rolling. So I had a technology company in Texas with some partners. And we had, at one point built a food delivery app and had some insights on how they were operating the food delivery operation. I just had some experience in that aspect of delivery.
Jeff Hedge:
And I always knew… I think people want their cannabis delivered to them. It’s great that they have drive-thrus in the stores are there and you go to the stores, but at some point, I think people would prefer ultimately just to start having it brought to them. And so delivery was always in our mind. We knew how we could build the app, we built the base of what Eaze was, I went out to California, and then you know I just really thought I would walk in and you know in a couple of months have 10 dispensaries lined up.
Chris Holifield:
To deliver for them?
Jeff Hedge:
Oh, yeah. I thought this would be just a cakewalk. Just walk in and say hi, and it would be great and it didn’t work out that way. It was hard to get partnerships with pharmacies, worked hard with some of them, in San Diego had a group that we thought we were right there and somebody came in with a million and a half dollars cash and bought the exclusive delivery rights for the whole San Diego county. So we couldn’t compete in that world and didn’t want to.
Tim Pickett:
Was it too competitive for the money or were there other hurdles of getting involved?
Jeff Hedge:
Just finding owners. I mean, you can’t just walk in and find the owner of a pharmacy or I mean of a dispensary in California. There’s lots of walls between even who’s listed on the documents and who actually owns them. And then they’re in groups. The group that we finally talked to in San Diego, we talked to one of a group of owners who was getting us in the door. And then when all of that was happening, and the thing fell through with San Diego but we still had some other opportunities, that’s when the lawsuits started happening in California, where cities like Beverly Hills, who had said, “We don’t want cannabis dispensaries in our city.”
Jeff Hedge:
Then there was a change in the law where delivery could happen in Beverly Hills and Beverly Hills said, “No.” We said we didn’t want that. And a bunch of cities like that got together and sued the state to end delivery in their cities, which would have been devastating for any delivery shop. Then COVID happened. And so the actual final decision of that, just was in November or December, and the judge threw out the lawsuit. So delivery can happen in Beverly Hills.
Chris Holifield:
She was like, “I live in Beverly Hills, I want cannabis to be delivered.”
Jeff Hedge:
It probably was the case. I would not be surprised.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, they basically have their own Amazon Prime trucks that drive up and down the street in Beverly Hills, I’m sure.
Jeff Hedge:
Right. And that’s just the state of California. It’s so chaotic, the rules are being changed as you go, and it’s the Wild West. Not my knowledge, but I mean, this is just documented that I think the number was 60% of the dispensaries have open doors. So what you’re buying may or may not be legal cannabis. And the traditional market is very strong in California, three times the, I think… Excuse me, I think 2020 I believe it was 4.1 billion in legal sales in California, and the traditional market was three times that.
Chris Holifield:
Oh, yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, wow.
Jeff Hedge:
It’s very large. So knowing all of that, and then at the end of last year, learning about potential opportunity in Utah and medicinal, I was like, “Medicinal, though I don’t know.” I started researching it and studying it. And I just think that this is the best place to be. Utah has got this right. And I know, there may be some customers that think, “Prices are too high and there’s bureaucracy and all these hoops that we got to go through to just even get a card,” but I think that is good. And I think the quality of the product is going to be… they can count on it, they know it’s high quality. I don’t know, I just think this is a great place, and I think Utah’s doing it right. So we’re excited to be here. And when we learned about the opportunity we started investigating it and coming out and meeting folks, just really made our mind up that this is where we wanted to be and basically start our operation, so…
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, that’s cool.
Jeff Hedge:
Yeah.
Chris Holifield:
So tell us, Sunny Days Cannabis Home Delivery-
Jeff Hedge:
D-A-Y-S. I had a battle with that, everybody was like, “Oh, D-A-Z-E, right?” And I was like, “No, no, no, no, we’re trying to normalize and mainstream and I can’t do D-A-Z-E, that’s not really a good word.”
Tim Pickett:
Right.
Chris Holifield:
Are you delivering yet then?
Jeff Hedge:
We’re just getting started. We’ve made some agreements with some pharmacies and right now, it’s the hiring process. And it’s hard. I think this is the best job market in America, Utah. There’s not a lot of-
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, I think it’s top three or something. It’s hard to find good people. It’s almost like full employment if you want it. Now, COVID, that’s put a dent in it. So describe your operation. Can you as a third party… You’re considered a third party?
Jeff Hedge:
Correct.
Tim Pickett:
You’re not considered a producer or a grower.
Jeff Hedge:
Third-party medical license is what we’ll have. A medical courier license.
Tim Pickett:
Medical courier license.
Jeff Hedge:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Is it regulatory-related by the Department of Ag?
Jeff Hedge:
The Utah State? Yeah, the state of Utah. The same laws that are written for cannabis law in Utah apply to me.
Tim Pickett:
And your drivers then will have to have a courier permit?
Jeff Hedge:
Have to be a courier agent, they have to go through screening, FBI background check, clean driving record, it really narrows the pool of who we get to choose. But again, it’s medicinal cannabis. So it’s-
Chris Holifield:
Do your drivers need to have medical cards?
Jeff Hedge:
We are not delivering delivered enchiladas.
Tim Pickett:
Right, yeah.
Chris Holifield:
Do your drivers need medical cards?
Jeff Hedge:
You don’t have to be a patient to be a driver.
Chris Holifield:
Okay. I was just curious how that worked, right?
Jeff Hedge:
You do have to be an agent and be a licensed courier. So they have to go through that whole process of getting there, which we do that for them, but…
Tim Pickett:
Right. And that specifies the rules of, “Hey, I’m going to pick up this cannabis from the pharmacy and here’s the protocol.” And then do you have to write a bunch of standard operating procedures that have to be approved? Or how does that work?
Jeff Hedge:
Yes, yeah. We don’t have a warehouse full of cannabis. Our partners, the pharmacies, most of the operating procedures were approved for them. We’re picking up and taking it and delivering it. So there are steps involved in that, and our cars have to be installed GPS, not just your phone, cameras, security in the back, so people can’t see the product it needs to be lockable. So there’s a lot of steps when we get our vehicles that we have to go through to make them compliant. And then those get checked before the courier gets to start doing deliveries. So we have a few steps that we’re doing right now. Hiring is the main thing. We are getting our cars and getting them ready.
Jeff Hedge:
So we’re hoping to be ready to deliver for multiple pharmacies, starting in June.
Chris Holifield:
So you wouldn’t even deliver out of your own car then. You have special vehicles for the people.
Jeff Hedge:
Yes. We could potentially use someone else’s car, but I will have to drill holes in it. And-
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, because of the installed GPS and lockable things.
Jeff Hedge:
Yeah, I don’t want to ask somebody to do that. So we’ll just put-
Tim Pickett:
Right. It’s not like you could just show up like an Uber job and you could say, “Hey, I want to deliver some cannabis and let’s just use my car. I’ll turn on my availability, I’ll go pick it up and deliver it.”
Jeff Hedge:
Yeah, a little bit different. It’s not a gig job, it’s a full-time job. And with paycheck and everything.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, and the normal stuff.
Jeff Hedge:
So it’s normal hours, you’ve got to show up for and everything. So we need dependability.
Tim Pickett:
Do you have to-
Jeff Hedge:
A lot of packages need to be delivered.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, with hundreds of transactions a day in each of these pharmacies, I mean, you would think that there would be a good percentage of those that would want delivery, if they could already. So I mean, that’s a lot. You could do the full-time gig, right? You could do the full-time job and show up. My question was, can you store? Or is there any rules where you can centrally store some of this material so you can… Or do you have to go… Say you have a deal with Beehive, you’ve got to show up at Beehive in the morning, you’ve got to get their product and you have to deliver that product. And if you’re going to go buy somebody in… Let’s just create the scenario, I’ve got to deliver in…
Chris Holifield:
Mount Pleasant, man. You know where that is? Up in Manti, right?
Tim Pickett:
Right. So you’ve got to deliver it. But I’m going to pick it up from Beehive but then I also deliver for Deseret, let’s say. Do I stop by there and pick up more?
Jeff Hedge:
That’s routing. Seeing all of the deliveries that need to be made that day, we assign routes to our drivers. Most of the time, there will be enough orders for that driver just to work for with that pharmacy. So they’ll pick it up-
Tim Pickett:
And they’ll just go do their day’s route.
Jeff Hedge:
I don’t if you’ve ever delivered food. You said, you have.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, pizza. You can only eat.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, pizza or flowers, yeah.
Jeff Hedge:
You don’t want to drive six, eight hours a day. That gets tiring, especially if you’re doing it day after day after day. We’re looking at like four-hour drive shifts. So typically, that driver will go pick up maybe 10, 15 packages and then take off and start doing routed drops. That’s the first one out, will be the last drop and then they come back. Now let’s say there were three people that they couldn’t deliver to, they just didn’t show up which, maybe for your food that might happen but I don’t think people are not going to get their cannabis after they order it, but we’ll see. But you’ve got up to four days to make that delivery. So, some pharmacies have depots in other areas. So if you’re going south and making deliveries and you weren’t able to make all your deliveries, we could come back to that depot, drop it off for up to four days to make that delivery again, attempt. [crosstalk 00:19:34].
Tim Pickett:
That’s like-
Chris Holifield:
Like a dropbox or something.
Jeff Hedge:
Yeah, kind of.
Tim Pickett:
I know you could kind of potentially… Like with Zion, they would have a place maybe in Payson, where they grow and they could call that a depot and because it meets all the regulations, and if they had a retail, I guess they don’t have a retail license but-
Jeff Hedge:
I’m not sure about being able to store it there, but it’s a possibility.
Tim Pickett:
It’s the same concept though, right? If Beehive has a depot between here and wherever you’re delivering, you could potentially store it there if you weren’t able to make the delivery. Man, this seems complicated.
Jeff Hedge:
It is. There’s some hoops. A great example for Beehive would be a lot of customers up in Davis and Weber County, right? So we go take a route up there and come back down. And maybe there were three packages that we didn’t deliver, or couldn’t deliver for some reason. Maybe we could drop that at Brigham City, leave it there and then make that route. So we’re not having to do that route [crosstalk 00:20:36] each time.
Tim Pickett:
Can you talk about the pharmacies? Or do you want to announce the pharmacies you’re going to do delivery with or…
Jeff Hedge:
I think they want to make their own announcements, as they make their announcements, we’ll promote or inform. So, pharmacies here may be announcing, “We’re going to start in Utah County, and then we’re going to start, Weber and Davis.” And they may spread those announcements out. So we’ll let them make those announcements. But we’re talking to a handful of them and are hoping to be delivering for the majority of the pharmacies here.
Chris Holifield:
How far out will you deliver though? That’s my curiosity is, will you go as far as to the Idaho border? How far south will you go? How far east, west will you go?
Jeff Hedge:
Yeah. And in reverse. If you’re in St. George, how far north will I go? The thing is being worked on. The majority of the customers are in the Wasatch Front, and a lot of them are San Diego County and Utah County. And then it gets smaller as you go into the other areas. And then when you get rural, it’s a lot fewer. We have to touch those, and we do have a solution ready. But it won’t be the first thing that we do. We’ll start delivering locally, in the areas around the pharmacies. If you’re in Utah County, bringing them into Salt Lake County and above, and take care of that first. But towards the end of the summer, we expect to start making routes south and trying to touch as much as we can. Ultimately, where there’s people out there, we want to get it to them. We can’t leave here, drive to St. George with one order. We have to have a solution for that, but we’re working through that. It helps if we got partnerships with multiple pharmacies versus just trying to do this with one pharmacy.
Tim Pickett:
Sure.
Chris Holifield:
So, I’m just trying to understand how this works and people listening, they’re going to want to understand too. So how would they get you to deliver? Do they go to your website? Do you have an app? How does that work, and how do they know what pharmacy to order from? I mean, let’s talk about the process [crosstalk 00:22:53].
Jeff Hedge:
At the very beginning, each pharmacy will start announcing that they have delivery. So you’ll go through their online ordering process and choose whether you want it delivered or not. If it’s delivered… I know you guys have heard because I learned a little bit listening to your podcast, there were some questions and some concerns about MJ Freeway and the electronic verification system and just some bugs in it and, “I need to learn about this stuff,” and actually listening to some of your podcasts I got some answers. So it was good.
Tim Pickett:
Write that down, Chris.
Jeff Hedge:
Yeah, no. 100%. So, when the orders go through their point of sale system, it will be distributed into our delivery system, and then we’ll be able to communicate with the customer that we’re coming, the customer and our driver will be able to communicate with each other, the customer will be able to watch the delivery coming to them. So if they are upstairs and want to come downstairs and greet our driver, which we appreciate… Every driver appreciates that. They’ll be able to watch it coming to them at a certain point. And we’re not trying to deliver your pizza in 30 minutes. So we’re going to have to educate. Don’t run out and then say “Oh, I need it now.”
Chris Holifield:
I need it in 20 minutes, guys, come on.
Tim Pickett:
This is something that you’re going to probably have to schedule at least a couple of days in advance in the beginning potentially-
Jeff Hedge:
Next day.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, next day, that’s-
Jeff Hedge:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
But if you’re local and maybe the further away you are the longer you have to give a little leeway.
Jeff Hedge:
Yes. We’ll have to do scheduled routed as we go rural.
Tim Pickett:
As you go rural, if I’m a little bit further away, Wednesday’s my day. Yeah, I can pick up Wednesdays delivery route and… But that’s pretty easy to teach people how to do, right?
Jeff Hedge:
It is. Just to run out.
Tim Pickett:
On Wednesdays, the milkman comes in so I make sure my order’s in by Tuesday afternoon so that Wednesday I get my order.
Jeff Hedge:
Exactly.
Tim Pickett:
That just seems like it’ll make sense.
Jeff Hedge:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Do you have an idea of how many deliveries they expect in Utah? I mean, with 25,000… This is maybe something you wouldn’t even… We could talk about it. Nobody has any idea, right? There’s 25,000 cards-
Jeff Hedge:
Well, I think that’s just increasing every week.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. And you have however many of those have Amazon Prime accounts and get stuff delivered to their house, that’s how many potential customers there are. And [inaudible 00:25:29] of those cardholders, you would think a lot of people are going to want this delivered.
Jeff Hedge:
I think so. I think Utah’s going to be a little different. I don’t think this is like going into the wine store and getting a bottle of wine and get in your car and leave. I think there’s still a stigma that we’re trying to erase. I mean, we’re to normalize cannabis. But this state’s going to be a little different. And I think that people are going to not want to be seen at the store right now, at the very beginning. And that delivery will be a preferred way of getting their product.
Chris Holifield:
So your vehicles aren’t going to have big pot leaves on?
Jeff Hedge:
No, we’re going to be super discreet, because we don’t want our drivers to get mugged.
Tim Pickett:
Oh yeah.
Jeff Hedge:
Yeah, that’s actually the main reason.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Are you going to be able to allow your drivers to accept cash or are they going to have to use some sort of digital payment processing?
Jeff Hedge:
So in the state of Utah, right now, the law is that the transaction actually has to take place before the delivery. So they will have to pay Beehive or whoever it is, upfront. And right now, that’s only Hyper, unless they come in and pay cash upfront, which is an odd scenario.
Tim Pickett:
Now, if somebody out there from hyper is listening, we would love to talk to you, because I have heard that there is up to 50% problem. 50% of the transactions that they start with Hyper have some sort of problem. And it’s almost not ready for primetime yet. It works, but it’s like the EVS system, it’s just cumbersome and it’s-
Jeff Hedge:
Technology is hard. And when you rush it out, you’re going to find issues. I mean, they come up. And this was a big technology that they tried to push out real fast. I mean, I don’t know what they just did this for here or there in other states. But, yeah, definitely I have heard the concerns. What was it? Two weeks ago, the House put the bill up so we could have safe banking. We need that to pass. The pharmacies, they’ve invested a lot, they’re putting a lot into this, and they need to be able to take somebodies debit card or credit card. It’s just a very simple thing that’s being asked. So hopefully, the Senate will come on come through, and President Biden and all that.
Tim Pickett:
It permeates even other businesses that are totally legal, legal banking but are attached to the cannabis industry in some way. Like with our clinic business, we are constantly on edge about the processing, even though we run a medical clinic and we should be able to bank and run these cards, it’s still… You’ve got a backup for the merchant services and then you’re always working on a third backup just in case something happens. So with you, I guess it’s nice that all those transactions will be done before you even get the product.
Jeff Hedge:
It really is. Our drivers will show up and you have safes where they will have the orders already fulfilled. They’re already purchased, everything has been verified. We just pick them up, route them and deliver them.
Tim Pickett:
Will they allow your drivers to accept tips?
Jeff Hedge:
That conversation has gone both ways with pharmacy owners. Some don’t like the concept of the implied, “You need to tip.” And I understand that. And we certainly don’t feel like somebody needs to feel that way. But-
Chris Holifield:
Utah is not known to be tippers, let’s just say that.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, right?
Jeff Hedge:
But if somebody delivers and it’s long-distance and that person is so inclined to say, “Here’s a couple of bucks or here’s $5,” we want that to happen. I think what’s going to happen in some the pharmacies when you’re checking out, you might have that opportunity to tip using your card, but most mostly that would just be a cash option for the patient. And certainly not something that’s expected. We’re going to pay well, more than double minimum wage here for our drivers and so we want them to be comfortable.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Jeff Hedge:
I mean, struggling to put food on the table doesn’t work. So, we want everybody to participate in…
Chris Holifield:
So it sounds like to me the pharmacy is the one hiring you, not necessarily the patient. You’re working for the pharmacy directly. The pharmacies in here deliver our product. Because I’m used to more of the concept of pull the app, right? You’re not going to go in Sunny Days app and stuff, you’re going to be working through your local pharmacy, just like [crosstalk 00:30:07] anyway.
Tim Pickett:
It does make a lot of sense, Chris to pull up that app and say, “Well, I’m getting my cannabis from Sunny Days, and I know they deliver here. So why don’t I go to their app and I find the strain that I like, and that sorts me to the pharmacy or the location that I want.” But-
Jeff Hedge:
I mean, ideally, there’s a lot to it. So, said app is already built. We have that app ready to use. And we may or may not use it in Utah. That might be used in another state. The situation here is, we would have to tie our system into MJ Freeway, into the EVS, and then have that work with the pharmacy and not cause them any… Not any additional work, but we don’t want to be a problem. And right now, to bring a technology like that to the table, in my opinion, is bringing a problem to the pharmacy that they don’t need right now.
Tim Pickett:
When right now what they need is just patient experience.
Jeff Hedge:
Deliver for us.
Tim Pickett:
Yes, please just take this product, get it to this patient’s house and let’s just start with that.
Jeff Hedge:
Yeah. And it’s not required by law, but it was very much emphasized in getting your license as a pharmacy that you’re going to provide delivery. So it’s something that they need to be doing. So, that’s solution number one. But we do intend to have our own site, Stay Sunny, which will ultimately become a form of an app that will allow consumers to at least come through and see that there are different things that… Here’s Dragonfly, here’s Beehive, here’s Deseret, here’s all these different things. Here’s what they’ve got. Right now they’ve got to go to each different site to do that. So they would be able to do that with us and then probably link into that particular pharmacy, place their order through that pharmacy to get started. Once all the technology is up to speed and everything is smooth, then we could bring our app in and let customers shop from there.
Tim Pickett:
Basically shop through your app.
Jeff Hedge:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
And then reach out to the pharmacy to make the payment even, and tie that together.
Jeff Hedge:
Yeah. We need to get to a point where we’re able to take credit cards and all that stuff because right now is just not a good time.
Tim Pickett:
How long do you think that takes? Five years?
Jeff Hedge:
Oh, I think in less than a year.
Chris Holifield:
Five months?
Jeff Hedge:
Yeah, I really do. I think all of this is happening. So obviously, with taxes and things, they’re obviously making a lot of money right now. And it’s not in their benefit to change that. But the banking is something that I think that everybody agrees with, Republican, Democratic, I think they’re all on the same page. So I think that’s going to happen. And that’s just going to exponentially help things and make it so that we might push our app a little bit faster. And we want to be able to take credit cards. I’d rather our drivers not deal with cash, but only being Hyper, it’s just not the right time.
Tim Pickett:
No, absolutely not. Do you feel like with some change in the legislation and making it easier, would that make competition harder for you? Because you could have a bigger… What if Uber just decides, “You know what, we’re just going to take over cannabis delivery in the U.S.”
Chris Holifield:
Sure.
Jeff Hedge:
And they’re already talking about it.
Tim Pickett:
No way.
Chris Holifield:
Oh, really?
Jeff Hedge:
They want the laws to change first. But they have a system down. But it’ll just be like everybody. They’ll go to California first, they’ll go to New York, then they’ll go to Texas, when Texas is opened, Florida. They’ll hit those places. They’ll look at Utah later.
Tim Pickett:
Got it.
Jeff Hedge:
Even MedMen was like, “Colorado? We’re not going to Colorado.” New York, Florida, California, those are the only places they wanted to be. And I think that that big mindset of an Uber doing delivery… Now, they may just open it up nationwide and if they do, great. But I think that we’re going to build a reputation with our partners and bigger partners for them. So I think that it’ll be harder than maybe they think.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, I’m always interested to get people’s opinions about other markets and things that change for us, in the medicine part of things, if we allowed telemedicine visits, then essentially that whole industry becomes run from out-of-state clinics.
Jeff Hedge:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
Right? These clinics that have these big operations of telemed docs and PAs somewhere in the middle of Ohio and they just sit there in a call center and they… That doesn’t make any sense to me from a personal… Your personal relationship with cannabis, if we’re going to destigmatize, I think that personal relationship is more important.
Jeff Hedge:
Oh, I think so. And just from the experience of going from Texas, where you’re calling your guy to California where you go into a retail store where it’s, “What’s the THC? What’s the THC?” That’s all they’re concerned about is just a number. And out here, going to the… Which I came to you all, qualified medical provider and had my consultation, and then I went to Beehive first and met with their pharmacist. There’s just conversation about the plant and the different things that you’re doing with it and the different benefits and you’ve been smoking it with a lighter all this time, you’re just burning off all the good benefits and there’s better ways of doing it. That’s not taught in California. They don’t care at all. They just want to know what is that THC number? Which is, you know —.
Tim Pickett:
And how much can I make on the sale. So-
Jeff Hedge:
And especially in the traditional market, because they just cut everything. The vitamin E in the vape carts and all that, if you remember that.
Chris Holifield:
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. The vape cart-
Tim Pickett:
I’m super excited to have this delivery thing, Chris. I haven’t-
Chris Holifield:
I like delivery. I mean, delivery is nice for everything. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, I love delivery, we get our daily dose of Amazon every day or a couple of times a week. And I can totally see that this would just be added to the convenience. When you need something, nowadays we just go online and we order it and it comes. I have noticed it’s pretty hard, it seems like it’s pretty cumbersome to get delivery. It seems like Dragonfly has some delivery starting, Wholesome has ramped up a little bit. And I’ve tried it with Wholesome and we are actually working with them on this process, because you’ve got to register.
Tim Pickett:
And I think this would be the same with everybody, you’d have to go to the pharmacy on their website, you have to register as a patient, you have to get hooked up with Hyper in order to do it, make sure that works. And that process alone is going to take a couple of days to get through. Then you have to go back online, and you have to make your order and schedule your delivery. So I can see how for Sunny Days, this is a lot of education and a lot of integration, building those pathways for those patients to try to get through. You almost need to help the pharmacies make that easier.
Jeff Hedge:
100%. Yes, yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Is that all you’re doing right now?
Jeff Hedge:
Well, I mean, it will be our goal when the pharmacies turn the light on and say, “Hey, we’re delivering.” We want to educate and help in any way we can to get those cardholders, to make this easy. I mean, just make it where you’re pulling up an app and make your order.
Tim Pickett:
And this is different than making it easy to get weed. You’re already a patient, you’re already in the system. This is just making it easier to get your medicine because we all know we can go down to Walgreens and we can buy whatever we want today. And if that was delivery, we can have Tylenol delivered tomorrow. Well, it should be that easy. That’s what I’m saying. It really should be that easy.
Chris Holifield:
My CVS delivers, Walgreens deliver, don’t they? Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Right. That’s easy. So we just need to make it that easy for patients who need it.
Jeff Hedge:
Let the patient use their ATM card, their credit card, whatever they want to do to buy. And that’s going to help things a lot and then just get through that process. And not to give them a hard time, but I think just the whole process of signing up for Hyper, from what I’ve heard, I haven’t done it, is a process.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, there are multiple companies, even in Utah that are starting to develop these little payment pathways to even bypass the bank and try to get some way that people can make this transaction and avoid the legality. And if they can do it, then it would be great for Sunny Day. I mean, it’d be great for everything.
Jeff Hedge:
It’ll be great for their pharmacy. I think individual pharmacists are doing this and it’ll be great for their pharmacies, unless they want to share it with everybody. But let’s just make that Safe Banking Act go through and that’s just going to help everybody.
Chris Holifield:
What’s the recent word on this? So it passed in the House…
Tim Pickett:
My understanding and we talked to JD about this the other day-
Chris Holifield:
It changes left and right.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, it does change, is that they’re tabling it until they get some comprehensive package together with cannabis nationally. There is a fear that if they pass it, then big companies will just come in and dominate the cannabis industry and it doesn’t protect the little guy. Because the banks will just come in and take it over. And so I think there’s some concern about the little guy.
Chris Holifield:
Who’s concerned about… Not the politicians aren’t concerned about the little guy.
Tim Pickett:
No, they’re not. And of course, the big banks aren’t.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, I was going to say, “Who’s worried about the little guy?”
Tim Pickett:
So that’s a good question. Who is worried?
Chris Holifield:
I am worried about him but I’m-
Jeff Hedge:
Throw some money at Hyper so they can get a bunch more engineers and developers to get that code right.
Chris Holifield:
Hyper is not local. They’re nationwide.
Tim Pickett:
I don’t think so, I think they are nationwide. And I could see Blockchain or Crypto. I don’t know how much you guys follow that. But I could see that being a solution that bypasses the bank altogether. It’s just that we don’t use it.
Jeff Hedge:
Yeah. It’s not mainstreamed.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, definitely.
Jeff Hedge:
We’re just trying to mainstream cannabis right now.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, you think Hyper’s got trouble, teaching somebody how to download a wallet and buy crypto and use that as a transaction.
Jeff Hedge:
Yeah, yeah.
Chris Holifield:
What about long term here? Do you plan on ever getting into growing, or would you like to have a pharmacy one day, would you like to get more into the industry or are you fine just doing deliveries?
Jeff Hedge:
We definitely love the delivery aspect of it. We would like to have our own products, whether we’re cultivating that potentially in some… There’s only certain cultivation licenses here and other states. We’ll potentially do that down the road, but also just creating private label products and having partnerships with cultivators, we look to have the Sunny Days product brand out there.
Chris Holifield:
So you’re looking to go big, I mean, as big as you can.
Jeff Hedge:
We’re leaving it to about those two things. We don’t look to have retail stores, that’s a lot. And it’s a completely different business, is what we tell our partners that we’re talking to. You’re running a storefront, you got employees in the area, it’s a business. This whole logistics thing is a business too. And they’re realizing it, they’re like, “Man, this is like a whole ‘nother thing.” I was like, “Yeah, don’t worry about it, we’ll take care of that for you.” And it’s a good solution.
Chris Holifield:
I’m excited.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I’m excited for you to do this, because I can see quite a few pharmacies really focusing on their own patient experience from their end and being happy to outsource this to somebody with a good reputation, somebody who’s focused on this type of market.
Jeff Hedge:
They still want that customer experience on our end too. So, these pharmacy has made it very clear, “We’d like to meet these people. We want them to go through some training on our end as well, know how we want things presented and what we want them to say.” And so, the delivery agent can’t say a whole lot. And they’re not pharmacists, so we can’t answer a whole lot of questions, but we can answer some questions.
Tim Pickett:
Sure.
Jeff Hedge:
It’s not going to be like food delivery, where it’s just, “Drop it off as fast as you can.” We know, say hi, and “Hey, how did you enjoy your last brand?” and all of that.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, you could get some feedback from the patients. So does a patient have to… They have to present ID to take the product from the agent, right?
Jeff Hedge:
Yes. I have to deliver it to their address that’s on their ID and on their medical card, I mean, our technology will be scanning their ID, scanning their membership card, scanning the product, and then they’ll open it up, make sure that-
Tim Pickett:
That it’s all there.
Jeff Hedge:
That’s what I ordered.
Tim Pickett:
That’s what I ordered.
Jeff Hedge:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
So this is a pretty good process to get, it’s not like getting a pizza.
Jeff Hedge:
It’s not huge, but it’s… And we don’t want it to be like pizza. But we want them to be more comfortable. And if they’ve got any questions, we want to answer them. If it’s related specifically to medicinal question, we’ll call the pharmacist at the pharmacy. But when you’ve gotten your cannabis, you don’t want to talk a lot. Go back in and open it up.
Tim Pickett:
You’re excited.
Jeff Hedge:
It’s like, “Thanks, appreciate it, goodbye.”
Chris Holifield:
“Get out of here. I’m sick of looking at you.”
Jeff Hedge:
“I really have no questions for you.”
Tim Pickett:
“I’m the one who ordered this, I know what I’m getting.”
Chris Holifield:
It’s funny. Earlier, you were mentioning, getting people conditioned to allow like a few days for delivery, right? But it’s like, most of us are used to the black market where you might it might take a few days to get your order anyway from your dealer or whatever. There were times I would make a phone call one night and it would take a week to get it.
Jeff Hedge:
It’s the way I’ve always said. It’s like, “This isn’t pizza, we’re not doing it in 30 minutes.”
Chris Holifield:
Most of us are used to that.
Jeff Hedge:
When have you ever called your guy and got it in 30 minutes?
Chris Holifield:
We’re used to that. So that’s why I think you’re really in a good industry for that, because Most of us are pretty patient.
Jeff Hedge:
Yeah.
Chris Holifield:
No pun intended there.
Tim Pickett:
Right.
Jeff Hedge:
And the only people that ever started that 30-minute thing was Dominoes, and everybody thinks-
Tim Pickett:
They don’t even do that anymore.
Jeff Hedge:
They’re supposed to get their hamburgers and everything in 30 minutes now and it’s like, “No, you’re not going to get your cannabis in 30 minutes.”
Tim Pickett:
No, this is going to be really cool. You know what I’m really excited about too? This has got me really excited about the interview that we do with the driver in a few months.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Jeff Hedge:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Right? The Sunny Day driver. We’ll have to look forward to interview-
Jeff Hedge:
I mean, as I’m interviewing people, everybody’s got a different story. And so it’s just interesting getting to know people. And then when we get our team together, that’s the fun part, is putting a good team together and keeping them together, keeping them happy and make it a good job. A good thing. This isn’t a career gig, but…
Chris Holifield:
It could be-
Jeff Hedge:
I guess it could be.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, you never know what happens. And people want different things nowadays with their careers. They want the freedom to do something else or do this on their own terms. How many drivers are you hiring right now? How many you think you need, right off the bat?
Jeff Hedge:
Well as the pharmacies start saying, “Okay, we’re going to do this county and this county and this county and this county.” We see having 14 probably 15 couriers before the end of the year. Maybe before the end of the summer.
Chris Holifield:
There’s no way to know unless you just get out there and start doing it.
Jeff Hedge:
Everybody’s ready to deliver. But again, there’s the hurdle of the only way that you can do delivery is by Hyper. That really narrows the audience down. But all that stuff will go away and then the audience will be able to grow. I think when anybody can just use whatever card they’re doing, go online, order it, have it delivered in the next day, I think that’s just going to be perfect for everybody.
Tim Pickett:
Absolutely.
Jeff Hedge:
And that’s all up and down the Wasatch Front, like I said. As we start going rural, it may be a couple of days, or we’re going to deliver Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and you’ll know when you’re going to get it.
Chris Holifield:
You know what I just thought of too, and this is probably a technicality. This might not even have a point to really be discussed here, but how much product can a person have in their car? Because I mean, you can only have so much dry flour on the time and so much stuff. So you could only have so much ounces of product in your vehicle. Do they-
Jeff Hedge:
It’s a lot here. Actually, it’s $10,000 worth.
Chris Holifield:
Okay. So they can have quite a bit of product in their vehicle.
Tim Pickett:
But its retail value is the limit for the couriers.
Jeff Hedge:
Say again.
Tim Pickett:
Retail value is-
Jeff Hedge:
Oh yeah, retail value.
Chris Holifield:
Well, you know how some states have only so many ounces of bud in the car, so I didn’t know if there was a limit there in Utah.
Jeff Hedge:
Being a licensed courier agent, that gives you that ability now. They can’t have anybody else in the car, or can’t leave all that stuff in the car. There’s a lot of rules to that. I mean, you can’t have that product and have a vape pen in your pocket. That’s having something in that car, that’s not part of the manifest. And you will go to jail for that.
Tim Pickett:
It’s not like you can stop off at the-
Chris Holifield:
Del Taco?
Tim Pickett:
At the Del Taco and go in and have a long lunch with the car, right?
Jeff Hedge:
You can’t leave the car for 60 minutes. So you can go grab something to eat. When you start talking about things that we’re having to deal with here is, it gets hot here in the summer. Edibles, they’re not good with heat.
Chris Holifield:
Oh yeah, I didn’t think about that.
Jeff Hedge:
So we’ve got to address that-
Tim Pickett:
Especially now that you can’t coat them with sugar to keep them away from-
Chris Holifield:
A little cooler, maybe. Little refrigerator.
Jeff Hedge:
Yeah, yeah. A refrigerator to handle that, so it doesn’t all melt. And in the back, the lockable. Somebody cannot walk by a car, look in and see a bunch of bags of cannabis. So, it’s got to be out of sight, hidden and locked. They can’t steal it if they bust a window.
Tim Pickett:
At least are your cars going to be yellow?
Chris Holifield:
He doesn’t want to tell us what his vehicles will look like.
Jeff Hedge:
They’re just going to be a myriad of different types of cars and colors and things. I don’t want anybody to know what our cars are. And I might graphic that thing up. Put a little note on the back of it like, “Hey, bad guy is and police, there’s nothing in here, this is an ad.” But anything that was graphic would be more for informational purposes. We definitely wouldn’t mark something that was carrying product, because that’s just a target.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, that just seems like a bad idea.
Jeff Hedge:
And that happens. In California, people will just sit there and watch the dispensaries in the mornings and when you see a car come up to a certain spot that’s designated for the drivers, and they’re loading up with a bunch of products, sometimes those cars get followed and-
Chris Holifield:
So, that’s big in California?
Jeff Hedge:
It’s happened. Oh yeah.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, yeah. Wow. You know what? It’s just another reason for the safe banking thing to pass, for more security.
Jeff Hedge:
Exactly.
Tim Pickett:
Right. Yeah, because it’s not like-
Jeff Hedge:
In California, you’re carrying a lot of cash. Couriers are, or drivers are. Different words dispensary driver, courier, pharmacy. I like on your site how you have dispensaries.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. We know what we’re working with.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, we know the words people use and when we’re comfortable with whatever you call can it. That’s the thing that I think destigmatizing it and normalizing it is, if you want to call it whatever you want, you want to call it a dispensary, a pharmacy. Everybody’s just so different. And they come to this from a different place. Like you, you’ve come to this from this background in Texas, where the laws are a certain way and the culture is different than here, then you go to California and see how there are some things in California that are probably good and there’s a lot of things that they missed the boat.
Jeff Hedge:
Sure, yeah. I read somewhere, and it was about the cannabis industry in California and it’s that California never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity. It’s the place where it all started. So we’ve got to give them a hat tip. But they definitely have things that they need to work on out there. And literally, if it’s going to be recreational and open it up, then open it up. Let people open up stores and not make it so hard to get licensed and have the dispensaries. In California, they’re trying to get the people who were in the traditional market, “Hey, we know what you’re doing. Become legal now, become compliant and we’re cool. We won’t look at what you’ve done in the past.” So I met a guy that had nine different trap shops, were just fake stores that were open in California and they’re competing with the people who are paying a lot of money for pharmacy license and then paying the taxes 33 and a quarter percent tax on your sales and in California, so…
Jeff Hedge:
Again, it’s just the Wild West out there. But it was the beginning. And so we’ve got to appreciate what they’ve done. But it makes you appreciate what’s going on here with 14 licenses, 15th coming up, they’re going to cap it at that, the cultivation is capped, and they’re keeping track on everything. I think ultimately, for the consumer, you’re going to have good quality products. The vape cartridges, I mean California you have no idea of what’s in the vape cartridges out there whether even if they’re coming from the pharmacies. Out here I think it’s pretty legit and you know for sure that this is good quality product. And give these cultivators a few rounds and the flowers are all going to get better, all the products going to get better and more and good supplies and all of that.
Chris Holifield:
Where can listeners get a hold of you? If they’re interested in becoming a driver, if they want to find out more about what you have going on, what’s the best way to get a hold of you?
Jeff Hedge:
Great. Yeah, no, we appreciate that. You can come to our socials, which is Sunny Days Brand, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, you can always hit me up that way. You can come to our website which is Stay Sunny. We’re just into the whole bright sunny thing. We thought that was part of the normalization of this.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, absolutely.
Jeff Hedge:
I mean you smile when it’s a bright sunny day outside and you smile when somebody knocks on your door and says, “Hey I got your weed.” So, you get a big smile both ways. So that way or reach out by email. Personal email is jeff.hedge@staysunny.com.
Chris Holifield:
Excellent. And I would imagine even be connected like on Instagram to even just find out what’s going on. I mean, it’s a good place to be connected just in general.
Jeff Hedge:
Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, everybody’s promoting their new drops, their new releases, events that are going on, you learn about Cannafest. I think you guys were up there.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Jeff Hedge:
That was great. Dragonfly did a good job with that. Beehive did a great job with their what was it Fatso Sugar House?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, Sugar House Selects Fatso.
Jeff Hedge:
There were lines of people trying to get that product and so if you want to do a drop like that, that’s really good to promote it. And social is the way to learn if you’re our consumer and with you guys, I mean.
Chris Holifield:
Did you see they got Tommy Chong? Did you see the Instagram?
Tim Pickett:
Yes, I saw the Instagram.
Chris Holifield:
Wasn’t that the best? About the Fatso.
Jeff Hedge:
That was great. I think one of their reporters is with High Times. When you’re with High Times you can probably just call up Tommy Chong.
Tim Pickett:
They’re pretty well connected, those guys. And Sugar House Select, man, that is some really good genetics.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Jeff Hedge:
I don’t know their background.
Tim Pickett:
Those guys are… I mean they seem like they’re top-notch. They’re just growing that craft grade type cannabis and Fatso’s, I would guess their most popular strain. It’s well known as far as-
Chris Holifield:
I think one of the ones that they had released, I don’t know… Because the Maxine, that was Zion, right?
Tim Pickett:
Yes, Maxine’s Zion.
Chris Holifield:
The Mad Max, I mean. Or… yeah.
Jeff Hedge:
Fatso was good. I’ve tried some others out here that, little dry, I’m not going to call out a brand. But again it goes down to give them a few rounds of cultivation and this is just going to get better and better and better. And you know, that we’ve got something here now it’s just a great thing.
Chris Holifield:
We all have to start somewhere. You’re not an expert from day one, you have to start somewhere and you’re only going to get better.
Jeff Hedge:
Yeah. 100%.
Tim Pickett:
That’s right.
Jeff Hedge:
And growing is a process. I’ve known growers that, you get three-quarters of the way through it and a bug gets in your system and messes the whole thing up and they have to throw it all out and start over again. It’s not easy.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Chris Holifield:
Anything else you want to ask him, Tim, before we wrap this episode up?
Tim Pickett:
This has been a fun conversation, Jeff. Thanks for coming down.
Jeff Hedge:
I really appreciate it.
Tim Pickett:
I’m excited to learn more about him. Oh, yeah, you bet.
Chris Holifield:
I mean, anything else you want to make sure to talk about, Jeff before we… Because I know it’s hard to cover it all and it’s hard to know what directions to go. I just wanted to give a sample to our listeners to know, “Hey, this is happening. It’s going to be happening. This is what’s going on in Utah. You better keep an eye out for these Sunny Days drivers.”
Jeff Hedge:
And We’re hiring and looking for good quality people. You got your background checks and clean driving record and we need good personalities and things. But we need drivers in Utah County and up in Davis County in Salt Lake County. And we’ll then have some drivers that are going to be really going on some long routes.
Tim Pickett:
Little long routes. Yeah.
Jeff Hedge:
Exactly. But if you’re in Utah, you’ll be coming into Salt Lake and if you’re in Davis, you’ll be coming down to Salt Lake and Salt Lake, you’ll be going up there. This is a beautiful state and there’s all kinds of jobs you can have, but this one is delivering smiles, I guess that’s Amazon’s thing but you really are delivering smiles. Somebody’s always going to smile when they see you.
Tim Pickett:
Come on, you needed that.
Jeff Hedge:
And you get to drive around in a beautiful state and absorb the scenery.
Chris Holifield:
It’s a good way to get involved in the industry. I know a lot of people, they’re mentioning online, “How do I get into the industry?” This is a good opp… If you’re listening right now and you want to get involved and you’re thinking, “Yeah, I got a pretty good driving record.” Hit up Jeff.
Jeff Hedge:
It’s a great start.
Tim Pickett:
You’ll get to meet a lot of people, you can meet the people at the pharmacies and a lot of these patients which is a good way to get in.
Jeff Hedge:
And then you’re in. This industry hires from within and if you look at Indeed or something everybody that’s hiring for cannabis wants you to have been in cannabis. So they don’t want new people so much. So yeah, this is a great way to get into the business and we’re gonna be hiring a lot. So, we’re excited about it.
Chris Holifield:
Very cool. And then how can people find the podcast? Tim, I’ll let you talk a little bit about that.
Tim Pickett:
utahmarijuana.org/podcast is where all the podcasts are housed. You can connect with Chris or I on utahmarijuana.org, you can use the Contact Us form or at iamsaltlake-
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, iamsaltlake.com, go check out my other podcast. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
And Utah Therapeutic Health Center if you’re interested in becoming a patient or you need help with your card or registering or basically anything related to the Utah Medical Cannabis Program, we’re just interested in helping and getting people more info.
Chris Holifield:
Easy peasy.
Jeff Hedge:
That’s great, yeah.
Tim Pickett:
All right everybody, stay safe out there.
Patient Maddie Morrison is originally from South Dakota. [03:17] She first began using cannabis as a teenager. It was still illegal in South Dakota at the time, but a lot of people Morrison knew used it anyway. Most of her family used cannabis.
Morrison told Chris and Tim how she stopped using after graduating from high school and moving to Utah. [09:19] Several years later, she began using cannabis again as a way to self-medicate. Morrison suffers from PTSD and back pain.
Tim mentioned the fact that cannabis is helpful to PTSD patients from the sleep aspect. [12:41] It puts patients to sleep, keeps them asleep, and suppresses dreams. He said that insomnia is probably the number one reason PTSD patients use cannabis.
After talking about why she uses, the discussion turned to taking breaks. [14:16] Tim asked if Morrison had recently gone 48 hours “totally cannabis free.” Morrison said it had been a while. Tim brought up the point in order to discuss the possibility of withdrawal symptoms among heavy users.
Tim went on to explain that he and his staff recommend patients take 48 hours off every quarter. [16:06] They recommend gradually ramping back up thereafter. This type of thing helps control tolerance and simultaneously saves patients money.
The remainder of the conversation focused on how Morrison is personalizing her own journey through experience and research. [18:59] She spoke about being able to help other people by sharing what she has learned. Morrison is a voracious researcher, spending hours watching videos and reading studies.
The trio briefly talked about Morrison’s employment with Deseret Wellness up in Park City. [22:33] Tim and Chris speak very highly of the Deseret Wellness pharmacies in Park City and Provo. Bringing them up was a nice way to round out the conversation.
More Info Coming Soon…
Chris Holifield: All right. Let’s welcome everybody out today to episode 57 of Utah in the Weeds. My name’s Chris Holifield.
Tim Pickett: And I’m Tim Pickett, medical cannabis expert of sorts in Utah, and we’re talking today to Maddie Morrison.
Chris Holifield: Yes, a patient as well as she works at Deseret Wellness in Park City.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, the Deseret Wellness in Park City is on Kearns, and it’s hard to find, and we talk about that in the podcast, but she’s really fun to talk to. This was a good episode and I liked the discussion that we had around her growing up and her experience with her family. I remember that. That was good.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, we don’t want to give too many spoilers.
Tim Pickett: Right.
Chris Holifield: We’ll get into that podcast or we’ll get into the interview here in just a second with Maddie.
Tim Pickett: Got a little housekeeping. There’s a new pharmacy in Brigham City, Beehive Farmacy, that we already know and love in West Salt Lake, right across the street from where we’re recording here today, but I’m also in Brigham City. Do you have the address of that?
Chris Holifield: I do. It’s 870 West 1150 South, Suite C Brigham City, Utah 84302. Their number 435-919-0966. Give them a call to make sure they’re open or they’re out.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, they had, I know Mindy Madeo is working as a pharmacist up there. She’s the pharmacist in charge.
Chris Holifield: Very cool.
Tim Pickett: Very cool place. Excited to see that pharmacy, the Northern most pharmacy in Utah, open up and give access to people who are way up there.
Chris Holifield: And then Utah Therapeutic, utahmarijuana.org, you guys are opening up here in Provo?
Tim Pickett: Oh, yes.
Chris Holifield: You guys have a grand opening on the 11th, I think?
Tim Pickett: Grand opening on the 11th. This Tuesday, coming up taco Tuesday from 12:00 to 6:00. We’ve got a taco truck coming to celebrate a re-grand opening. So we’re in the same building as Deseret Wellness in Provo. We are not in their space. We have our own entrance, our own space there. Look for us there on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays right now, 12:00 to 6:00. Just I’m really excited about Utah County because we have a lot of patients that drive up from the South. And this gives them really an hour less drive than driving up here to the Salt Lake Valley. So yeah, super excited. Come down and see us, take a selfie with the marijuana gnome.
Chris Holifield: The marijuana, that should be our mascot of the podcast —
Tim Pickett: … if you know you know. Out there are the marijuana gnomes, I gave them away for the birthday, right?
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: They’ve just become something of a thing that we think is fun.
Chris Holifield: Utahmarijuana.org/podcast, go listen to all the podcasts there. They all should be up there for the most part. Share some of your favorite episodes on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and that way we can help grow our audience because that’s the way we’re going to grow is word of mouth. And I don’t know, anything else you want to mention before we get into this episode here and talk about-
Tim Pickett: Yeah, talk with Maddie. I don’t think so, Chris. Let’s get into it.
——
Chris Holifield: All right. Here’s that conversation with Maddie Morrison. Thanks so much for listening to you guys. Let’s talk about your relationship with cannabis. When did that start for you?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, so I was probably between the ages of 14 and 16, very young, too young.
Chris Holifield: Were you by yourself, with friends?
Maddie Morrison: With friends. Well, we weren’t really with friends, it was not a very good crowd.
Chris Holifield: Pseudo friends at the time, right?
Maddie Morrison: Totally, yeah. I stepped outside of my crowd and I was just like, I don’t know, my mom gave me the go ahead. She asked me if I had ever tried cannabis before, and I said no, and she said-
Chris Holifield: Now, did she say it like that? “Have you tried cannabis?”
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Really? Didn’t call it marijuana, anything?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, did she?
Maddie Morrison: No.
Tim Pickett: Oh, nice.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Okay.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah. It’s very well known in my family. Everybody pretty much uses cannabis, so it’s been a great culture in my family.
Tim Pickett: Very cool.
Maddie Morrison: So when I get those roadblocks of people who aren’t so open to the subject, it’s a little bit strange for me, because I-
Tim Pickett: Because you didn’t grow up in the same environment that I would say most would be here, in Utah?
Maddie Morrison: Totally, yeah.
Tim Pickett: Right. You grew up in an environment that maybe you live in our future, where we’re going to raise our kids is with more openness and talk about it more. So when you were using cannabis when you were younger, did you feel that fear of getting caught as much?
Maddie Morrison: Totally.
Tim Pickett: You still did?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, I Totally did. It wasn’t so much getting caught by my parents, well by my mom, my family background is something we can talk about later, but my mom just always was very open about it and my grandma is very open about it. My grandma is, I hate to put the stigma on it, but she’s the biggest pothead I know. She’s, my grandma’s great.
Chris Holifield: And your family’s out in South Dakota, right?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, most of them.
Chris Holifield: So for the people listening, that’s where you were born and raised, that’s where you first started using cannabis. Now, what South Dakota’s laws current? Are they a medical state or are they recreational or are they just not this?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, it was fully illegal, very harsh laws, very conservative. It’s a very conservative state. Very much was not okay even though everybody was aware that everybody was using cannabis. The harder drugs are also an issue in South Dakota as well, so it was a big, drugs were a big topic. I hate to say drugs, but drugs was a big topic in South Dakota. I was more so afraid of being caught by cops, so it wasn’t really family that I was scared of or anything, it was just cops. Because it’s a small town, there’s not really anything that they can do aside from like follow cars around town that are perfectly doing nothing wrong.
Chris Holifield: It was a small town there that you grew?
Maddie Morrison: Oh, so small. Only one stoplight.
Chris Holifield: Okay, because I’m familiar with South Dakota and I know how it is. It’s like weather, what is it only like? There’s only a couple of big cities in South Dakota, and they’re not even that big, I guess.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah. The biggest ones are Rapid City, that one’s about a 35, 45 minute drive away from where I grew up, which is in Lead Deadwood area. So yeah, little old western town and just very small school. I grew up with the same kids from kindergarten to graduation pretty much.
Tim Pickett: All the way though.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: So it was like you had to accept the people that were there, not a lot of choices of who your friends were, not a lot of choices of who you spent time with?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, and cliques weren’t a thing. It was just everybody was the same friend group, so it was very small town. Everybody knew everybody’s business, and even though I used cannabis as a very young kid, everybody did, so I wasn’t scared about my peers knowing or anything.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, it’s a little different than here where you have little groups of kids that would use or not.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, it’s more cliquey in bigger places.
Tim Pickett: It’s like everybody knows who the groups are, but in your case, it’s all just one group.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, exactly.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, that is small town.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, very small town.
Tim Pickett: I’ve visited places like that, Chris, but never lived in one.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, no I’ve visited-
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I visited-
Chris Holifield: But at 14 you probably weren’t even familiar with the term medical marijuana, medical cannabis.
Maddie Morrison: No, not really.
Chris Holifield: It was all just recreational, so to speak.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Even though there probably was things that it was helping out, even at 14.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, as a young kid, I definitely used it recreationally, but I knew that there were times where I was like, “Okay, I know that when I use this before a test, I focus a little bit better. I feel more confident. I feel like I have a better outcome with my test.” That sort of thing. So I definitely was aware that it was helping me in some ways, but it didn’t really register the medical aspect of it until-
Tim Pickett: Right, you’re not considering it. And let’s go back to that. That term medical, we use it now because it’s almost like a legal term. But if you’re using the plant for some type of benefit or some type of change, that’s essentially what we’re doing with the medical side anyway.
Maddie Morrison: Exactly.
Tim Pickett: And you don’t even need to call it medical, it just is what it is.
Maddie Morrison: Exactly.
Tim Pickett: But focus, you found, did you find that some strains … Were you able to choose what strain you got there?
Maddie Morrison: I feel like when I was young, now I have a super high tolerance. When I was that young, I was like, anything really helped me, anything was very mind altering. Even if it was being in the same room as somebody, I would still feel a change in my body or my mind. I didn’t really pay attention to strangers because it was like what you could get back then. And now it’s more so I’m learning as I’m going through my journey, because then it was just my experience with cannabis, now I feel like I’m on my journey with cannabis. So it feels like mind change. Now, I’m learning about terpenes, I’m learning about cannabinoids, I’m learning about what my body needs. I have a little notebook that I write when I try new things. I write what the brand is, what it was, my dosage, the changes, so I’m keeping track and making it more catered to Maddie, if that exists.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, you’re personalizing your own experience.
Chris Holifield: When did you start doing all that? How long ago did that one start for you?
Maddie Morrison: Probably mostly when I started in the industry, when I started at Deseret Wellness. I took about two years off from cannabis, because I started at a credit union when I first moved here, and I worked there for almost three years, and it was very much a different culture. I was so scared. I was scared I was going to get in trouble. I didn’t want to get in trouble. I didn’t want to get fired. I wanted to be a good adult. I just graduated high school. I just wanted to be very clean, and I don’t know.
Tim Pickett: Did you think that, “Okay, now I’m going to grow up, I’m going to be adult, and adults don’t smoke weed?”
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Is that really what you-
Maddie Morrison: That’s really what I felt.
Tim Pickett: Interesting.
Maddie Morrison: Because when I worked, I don’t know if I should say it, but I had a really bad experience at this credit union, and that’s, as I worked there longer, I started just, I don’t know if I was starting to resent my job or I don’t know, retaliate, I don’t know, but I started using cannabis again.
Chris Holifield: As a way to probably escape at that time?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, because I was just like, I would just feel so unhappy and I just feel like I’m trapped here. And it was a way for me to heal some of that depression and heal some of those things that some of those traumas that happened during the three years that I worked there. And that was game-changing for me, because then it started helping me with those traumas and with those issues, so-
Tim Pickett: Are you talking about-
Maddie Morrison: … I don’t want to get emotional, but-
Tim Pickett: Right, because you’re diagnosed with PTSD, and that’s your qualifying condition in Utah, and that’s primarily what you use cannabis for from a medical standpoint?
Maddie Morrison: And pain as well.
Tim Pickett: And pain.
Maddie Morrison: I have really bad lower back pain.
Tim Pickett: Okay. And do you find, now that you’re through this journey, how has cannabis helped the PTSD?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, so I have really bad insomnia associated with it. I’ll get nightmares, I’ll get flashbacks, I can’t, either I, there are some, some days, well, before I got back into my cannabis journey or when I first started again after two years, there would be days where I wouldn’t sleep for a couple of days. And it just was thinking-
Tim Pickett: Because you have trouble falling asleep and staying asleep because of the nightmares?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, because sometimes I’ll close my eyes, I’ll stop to relax, and then I’ll get a flashback of something, and it’ll just make me uncomfortable and I’ll cringe, and I just get really anxious. And depending on the flashback and the severity of that situation, there are some nights where I just can’t sleep, period. With cannabis, it’s like if I have a higher dose edible, that’s the biggest part. That’s the biggest help for me, is being able to fall asleep, stay asleep, not have any nightmares. Usually I have really great dreams or no dreams at all, and I’m just out.
Chris Holifield: Does it help you wake up refreshed in the next morning?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Because that’s the worst, is when you don’t wake up and you just feel like you didn’t sleep at all.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Right.
Maddie Morrison: Well, there are some days I feel a little foggy, but it’s normally for, because I go back and forth between wanting to drink coffee and stuff and not. So I feel like coffee helps me get rid of that fogginess, but if I don’t, I definitely have a little bit of fogginess for a couple of hours during the day.
Tim Pickett: Like in the morning?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, like in the morning, usually for like two hours.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, it’s really has been a fascinating topic for me lately too. We’ve done a lot of different content on Discover Marijuana, on the YouTube channel with Blake Smith and I talking about PTSD, and the sleep specifically with cannabis, the research that it’s great to help people fall asleep, but at lower doses, unless you have a higher tolerance, maybe like you. But one of the things it does really well is suppress dreams. And it’s one of the best reasons to use it or that people use it for PTSD. But dosing wise, how much do you usually take? What’s the sweet spot for you?
Maddie Morrison: I use cannabis throughout the day, from the time that I wake up to the time that I go to bed. Sometimes if I wake up in the middle of the night, I’ll take a drug off of my vape, a couple drags off of it and then I can fall back asleep. So I’m really consuming most of the day. Not while I’m at work, but if I take a lunch break, I’ll have my vape throughout the day. Or if I get anxious, if I go to the store, I hate shopping in stores or going to restaurants or things like that, I take my vape with me and I feel I can be present.
Maddie Morrison: As for edibles, it changes, because my tolerance is so high, I’m trying to step away from edibles for a couple of days and just have lower dosing. So that way I can decrease my tolerance a little bit because-
Tim Pickett: And spend less money.
Maddie Morrison: … it’s so expensive to have a high tolerance.
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Do you give yourself breaks at all?
Maddie Morrison: I try to, but it’s so hard because I know that it does help me sleep that I’m like, “If I don’t take it, my tolerance will build back up,” but if I don’t take or if I do take it-
Chris Holifield: You won’t get any sleep, yeah.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, I won’t get sleep.
Tim Pickett: Can we talk about this a little bit more too, because have you ever, or when was the last time you had 48 hours totally cannabis free?
Maddie Morrison: Probably, well, a few months.
Tim Pickett: It has been a few months.
Maddie Morrison: I’m trying to think. Yeah, it’s probably been a couple of months.
Tim Pickett: Can you remember? Can you remember how you felt?
Maddie Morrison: I definitely felt crankier, a little bit crankier.
Tim Pickett: You don’t sleep as well, you’re a little crankier, which-
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, and I’m cranky because I can’t sleep.
Tim Pickett: The reason why I ask is that it really is, people who use a lot, not people who use a lot, but people who use very consistently, you’re going to get some withdrawal type symptoms. Right?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, totally.
Tim Pickett: You get a little cranky.
Maddie Morrison: It’s like if you don’t have coffee for a couple of days, you get a little bit-
Tim Pickett: It’s kind of the same thing, right?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: You get the caffeine headache if you don’t have your morning coffee. Right?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, exactly.
Tim Pickett: Of course, if you’re using something every day, you’re going to have some withdrawal symptoms. They’re not dangerous, but it happens.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah. And it’s not I’m angry, it’s just like, I just feel a little sensitive, I don’t know. Yeah.
Chris Holifield: There’s not much that you can do to get over that except just not consume any, right?
Tim Pickett: Right, yeah.
Chris Holifield: There’s not any other tips or tricks or things you could do?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Some people take 48 hours off of THC only. And so they’ll ramp up the CBD, CBN-
Chris Holifield: Who was it that we chatted with. We chatted with somebody, I forgot how he was.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, and he does that. The coder.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: He’ll do that. And other people just force themselves to do 48 hours or however many days, 24 hours, right?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: And to patients, we recommend that once every quarter you take two days off, then your day three, you go 50% of what you took before, day four still 50%. And then as day five and on you can reset your tolerance and you spend less money. And you really rebuild the receptors that are down-regulating. There’s not as many when you’re chronically using, but it’s not that you’re still not getting the effects, you’re still getting the effects, it just takes a little more to get to that point.
Maddie Morrison: Totally.
Tim Pickett: And mostly we’re talking about THC in that case, not really the other cannabinoids. We don’t know enough about the other cannabinoids to know whether there you’re building up a tolerance to them.
Maddie Morrison: Right, yeah. And there are some days, I don’t know, the last time I took several days off, but every now and then I take a day off if the day before I had too much THC. Because there are some times where I’m like, “Okay, how far?” Because right now 35 is pushing that line a little bit for me right now, 30 is probably better.
Tim Pickett: Milligrams?
Maddie Morrison: Milligrams.
Tim Pickett: A milligram edible?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: You can take a 30 milligram edible.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, and it’s good for bedtime or-
Tim Pickett: You’re in the zone?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, so if I test it a little bit more, because the highest that I found so far, I don’t know if it’s just because I’m just getting it from where I work, but is the Oakbridge orange cream ones, they’re 30 milligrams. If I need to add more, I just add a tincture to the edible and increase the dosage on the edible.
Tim Pickett: This is called layering, folks.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, so-
Tim Pickett: For those of you out there who are interested in this-
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, it’s nice.
Tim Pickett: … it’s just layering one thing over the other.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, because then you can always, I just feel like it’s extending the life of that product, because you’re using the full, it’s full ability, if that makes sense. Because if you have a higher milligram and instead of having one and a half or one and a quarter, if you have even higher tolerance than that, or if you have a super high tolerance, you don’t have to take multiple edibles. You can take one and you can add two drops from a tincture and that’s perfect. So I just feel like it maximizes the product and the money.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, there’s a good way to do it.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: I like that.
Chris Holifield: I think that’s what everybody should be doing, is trial and error, trying different things out, seeing what works and seeing what works for you. And how you said with the journal, making notes of that. Do you refer back to it a lot saying, “Oh, okay. I see what I was doing there?”
Maddie Morrison: Yeah. At work, because there’s a lot of downtime because we’re new, we’re not super busy, I’ve been doing so much research.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, we’ll talk about this because I’m really excited about Park City and the whole setup up there.
Maddie Morrison: Oh my gosh. It’s awesome.
Tim Pickett: It’s really cool.
Maddie Morrison: I love my job. I haven’t been able to say that yet, but I love my job.
Tim Pickett: But I imagine, that’s good. I’m sure we’ll shout out to Jeremy.
Maddie Morrison: Totally.
Tim Pickett: He’ll be like, “Oh, yes.”
Maddie Morrison: I know.
Tim Pickett: But it’s not that busy and you’ve got a little downtime?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, so I’ve been doing a ton of research. I’ve already gone through two notebooks since we’ve been open for like a month. I do ridiculous amount of research about terpenes, about cannabinoids, about dosing, about different studies that have been done, that sort of thing. I’ve watched so many Ted Talks, so many YouTube videos. I just really want to absorb it all, and yeah.
Chris Holifield: What do you do at Deseret Wellness? Just like-
Maddie Morrison: I’m an operations associate, so I work in the vault mostly. Occasionally I’ll work up in reception or on the med floor, helping patients.
Chris Holifield: In the vault, what is the vault?
Maddie Morrison: The vault is where all the product is.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, so I’m just fulfilling orders. So when the patient is with the pharmacy agent at the register, they ask for the product they want, they print out the labels, the labels have everything that they need, like the patient’s name, date of birth, or location, the pharmacist, that sort of thing. And then they bring that to the vault, I grab all the product, and then I put the label on and then send it out. And then also update menus, the website, that sort of thing. I’m on the back end of it, yeah.
Chris Holifield: Didn’t I read somewhere that in Utah you can finally use out-of-state patient IDs on this?
Maddie Morrison: That just started.
Tim Pickett: In fact, Deseret Wellness was the first to post that out-of-state card holders can register with the EVS system and the department of health will verify that card. That the card is legit.
Chris Holifield: In whatever state they’re from?
Tim Pickett: In whatever state they’re from. So, if you are from California and you have a med card, then you can come here and you can use for 21 days, three 21-day-periods per year.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: And you go through this process, I think it’s 25 bucks to get the card.
Chris Holifield: How much product can you buy? That’s up to the-
Tim Pickett: Now, see this is where-
Chris Holifield: That’s where, because you’re a pharmacist. You don’t have a pharmacist here.
Maddie Morrison: We had a situation a couple of days ago where one patient came in and then it was like, okay, the pharmacist was like, “Oh yes, our first one.” And we were also excited. We were like, “Okay, let’s see how this is going to work.” And then I left for the day, so I have no idea-
Tim Pickett: Right, on how much they can buy.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah. I’ll have to ask.
Tim Pickett: I guess it’s up to the pharmacist.
Maddie Morrison: Possibly. I’m sure they have to have a consultation because they’re out of state, they’ve never purchased in Utah before. I don’t really know what that was.
Tim Pickett: Right. I think those details yeah, we don’t really know. It’d be interesting, we need an out-of-stater to be on the podcast after having the experience. Right?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, seriously.
Tim Pickett: And in Park City, you would think you’re going to see a lot more.
Maddie Morrison: Right, many tourists.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. You’re going to see a lot more of the out-of-staters.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: My wonder is how long will that take out-of-staters to get approved. Is it going to take them —
Tim Pickett: That’s what I was just talking about too.
Chris Holifield: What if they’re only in for a weekend? Does that-
Tim Pickett: Right. And I put my card application in on Friday, and I arrive at four, and then I don’t get approved till next Wednesday.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: I would think you’ve got to have some foresight too. You got to plan ahead.
Chris Holifield: Let us know. Drop us an email if you can. I don’t know. That might be hard to explain in an email, but I’m curious what-
Maddie Morrison: Well, I think you left your phone number and the email too. I can always call you.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, I’m just curious, how it works.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, and we’ll put it in the intro on how it works.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, I’ll find out.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, and even as time goes on, weeks go on and months go on.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, because we’ve definitely had a couple of people since we’ve been open that have been like, “Are you guys recreational? Can we buy?” It’s like, “No, I’m sorry. Come with your snow pants on.”
Tim Pickett: Which is so surprising for us, right?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: We know the system so well because we live it and breathe it all the time. But there are so many people who we see even every day who were like, “Wow, I didn’t even know medical cannabis was illegal in Utah until last week.”
Maddie Morrison: Yeah. I know. I told my stepdad. I just checked in with him, and he was like, “What are you doing? Are you still at the bank?” And I was like, “No, here’s the thing.” And I had to gently explain it. He uses cannabis for sure, but I don’t know that he’s necessarily okay with me working in the industry. I know a lot of people that I know have been worried about that, but he was like, “It’s legal there?”
Chris Holifield: In Utah? What?
Maddie Morrison: And he talked about the church. He was like, “The church let them do that?” And I was like, “Oh God, yes.”
Tim Pickett: Yes, as a matter of fact, they did. They were a part of that negotiation.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Big part there.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, big time.
Maddie Morrison: Just crazy.
Chris Holifield: Where would you like to see yourself go in the industry? Do you have any long-term goals or plans or thoughts?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, so I didn’t think I did. I thought I’m starting school, so I was just like, “This is a part-time job. I’m just going to work part-time job. I’m really interested in cannabis. It helps me. I like using cannabis.”
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Maddie Morrison: It’s cool. I’m like, “Sure. Yeah, I think it would be really interesting.” And when I had my interview with Jeremy, he asked me why I wanted to be in the industry. And I said, “I’ve been on the receiving end of cannabis, the receiving end of the industry and I would like to be on the giving end. I think it would an interesting perspective of helping patients, but also healing myself in a lot of ways.” So that’s, I love the industry. And now that I’ve been a part of the industry, I’m like, “Oh my God, this is it for me. I like this.” So doing my research, I really would like to get into sustainable packaging for the cannabis industry, because we are a green industry, but our packaging is not green.
Tim Pickett: No.
Maddie Morrison: Not at all.
Chris Holifield: What would you do just the packaging that the product comes in, I guess?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, so if it can be recycled plastic or hemp packaging, hemp, come on, that’s a missed opportunity in my opinion.
Chris Holifield: True.
Maddie Morrison: Hemp is used for-
Tim Pickett: Right. We should already be way ahead in this deal, right?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: We produce all the biomass to make the product. Can we not just grow a little hemp and do that too?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, grow hemp for packaging and just make packaging. It just seems like if you have a hemp license, it seems like a missed opportunity.
Tim Pickett: Sure.
Maddie Morrison: I’m sure that there’s more that goes into it. But if I can do something to push that forward or if I can work along with somebody and have them train me in that sort of way, I would love to be a part of the sustainability aspect of it. That’s what I would like to go to, but yeah.
Tim Pickett: That is really cool.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, you said you’re still in school?
Maddie Morrison: I’m starting school in May, so I haven’t gone to school.
Chris Holifield: What are you going to school for?
Maddie Morrison: I want to do humanities, and also environmental science and sustainability. I would like to do something with environmental policy or cannabis policy. I think that would be interesting.
Tim Pickett: You could get in now.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, totally.
Tim Pickett: It’s not a bad time.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, and I’m in the industry. I have my foot in the door, so.
Tim Pickett: Well, you’ll understand the policies and the rules and the culture around it.
Maddie Morrison: Totally.
Tim Pickett: And I think that’d be pretty cool to be starting school right now, wanting go into something like this, which … And we think once we hit adult use, “Okay, well the fight is over,” but that’s we’re just at the beginning of knowledge about what the plant does and how it can help and how to manipulate it. Your journal is a small part of that process for everybody.
Maddie Morrison: Totally.
Tim Pickett: What do you think the best, can you point to a couple of things or one thing that you’ve gone back and looked at your journal and said, “Oh wow. I remember doing that and that makes sense now,” or something?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah. Are you asking about the products that have tried or just my notes, just my research?
Tim Pickett: Just your notes?
Maddie Morrison: Just my notes in general. So with that one, I’m definitely always going back to cannabinoids and terpenes, always, daily referencing that. Especially when patients, if I am helping a patient, or sometimes because some of our employees don’t have a medical card, so they can’t purchase product. So, some of them have, I have a medical card, so I have that step ahead where I can test the products and then explain those to patients.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, you can talk about your, it’s important people know too, there’s rules about what you can and can’t say, right?
Maddie Morrison: Exactly. So you can’t say, I recommend, you can’t say, this is good for this, this heals this, you can’t say, you can’t guarantee something. So, you can let patients know that based on what other patients have told me, this is what they happened. But again, keep in mind, everybody’s different, cannabis affects everybody differently. So I always explain to people it’s like, and I can’t pinpoint it.
Tim Pickett: It’s like in my experience, right?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, and you can say that, but you can’t even really say, “This helped me.” You can’t really say that. So, it’s hard.
Tim Pickett: That’s really interesting, restrictive.
Maddie Morrison: Oh, it’s very restrictive.
Tim Pickett: I get the point that you have to be careful in which way you’re acting to a patient, to a medical patient. It’s not like you go into the pharmacy and the person behind the pharmacy desk says, “Oh yeah, this Benadryl is good for this.” Although don’t they?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah. Right.
Tim Pickett: I think it’s a little bit weird how that works.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: They want to treat our pharmacies like Walgreens, but they don’t want us to let us act like Walgreens.
Tim Pickett: Right.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, that’s so true.
Tim Pickett: You would go up to the pharmacy tech at Walgreens and you’d say, “Hey, I’ve got a really stuffy nose. Can you recommend a product that would help?”
Chris Holifield: Yeah, and they will.
Maddie Morrison: Oh, my God, and then they will.
Tim Pickett: Of course, they will.
Maddie Morrison: They totally will.
Tim Pickett: And that’s legal, but they can’t-
Maddie Morrison: And they recommend dosing you then.
Chris Holifield: But you can’t do that at a cannabis pharmacy.
Tim Pickett: Right, but you can’t do that.
Maddie Morrison: But you can’t do that at the pharmacy.
Tim Pickett: Unless you’re the pharmacist or the QMP on the back end.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Do you find that people in Park City, have you seen patients who’ve come in and been really intimidated with the process?
Maddie Morrison: I don’t think so.
Tim Pickett: No.
Maddie Morrison: I think everybody has been pretty much on the same page. People of all ages, of all, anything, wherever you came from, anybody has come in. And it’s been really cool to see how patients are taking their health into their own hands. I love seeing that. I love that they’re talking about their experiences. We as pharmacy agents. We want to hear that we want to hear experiences, because then we know what to tell other patients, you know what I’m saying? If a pharmacy agent hasn’t been able to try a product because they’re not a medical patient, they can get explanations from other patients. It’s just really interesting that we’re all learning together, we’re all just, it’s I love how much we’re all learning. I don’t know. I just love being a sponge to all of it, and it’s just really fun to be a part of.
Tim Pickett: It’s pretty cool. And it’s like the Wikipedia.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, totally.
Tim Pickett: There’s not a black, there’s not a label that says, “Okay, this does this, this does that.”
Chris Holifield: Do you have any favorite websites or anything, that off the top of your head that you know of or anything? I guess that’s a tough question to ask off the top of your head, but-
Maddie Morrison: We use a lot of different websites, especially when we’re looking at different strains and trying to figure out-
Chris Holifield: Like you personally even.
Maddie Morrison: Me personally, I use Leafly, that’s my go-to.
Chris Holifield: Okay, for a lot of your research and stuff?
Maddie Morrison: I have the app on my phone. I use it at work.
Chris Holifield: And so you’re always on there?
Maddie Morrison: Always on it. Sometimes it doesn’t have the strains, so if you just Google the name of the strain and then strain after it, it’ll find you a website that has the information on that strain. So if Leafly doesn’t have it, usually it does, but occasionally, you’ll find one that isn’t on there.
Chris Holifield: Do you use flower at all? Anything like flowers or —
Maddie Morrison: Oh, yeah. I use everything.
Chris Holifield: Okay. Favorite strain or anything?
Maddie Morrison: Right now, Sugar Cane by Tryke.
Chris Holifield: I haven’t tried that one yet.
Maddie Morrison: I think it’s a hybrid.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Maddie Morrison: It’s smells sweet. It tastes sweet. I feel like it’s very smooth. It’s not harsh at all. It never makes me cough or anything like that. It’s just so mellow, it feels immediate relief in my body. It’s just great strain, so I highly recommend.
Tim Pickett: Tryke has been putting out some pretty decent flower.
Chris Holifield: One of the only ones. Well, we’ve talked to her, she’s on the podcast.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, they’re just-
Maddie Morrison: We have so much flower right now.
Tim Pickett: … down at the pharmacy the other day, and you look at the list and Tryke is just hammering out some products.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah. Well, recently we got a shipment of regular bud and also popcorn.
Chris Holifield: The little buds, yeah those are-
Maddie Morrison: We have a lot of flower right now.
Chris Holifield: At the Park City though?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, at Park City.
Tim Pickett: At the Park City.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, probably just because it’s not as busy-
Maddie Morrison: Exactly.
Chris Holifield: … as say Beehive or Des —
Maddie Morrison: Oh, my gosh.
Chris Holifield: … or Dragonfly.
Maddie Morrison: Even the one in Provo.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, the one in Provo, right?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, they’re so busy.
Tim Pickett: Because you guys are seeing maybe 50 people a day up there in Park City, if that, right now. And that’s partly just because of its location too, right?
Maddie Morrison: Totally.
Tim Pickett: It’s on Kearns and-
Maddie Morrison: And Park City has such high regulations about signage. We can’t have a green plus.
Tim Pickett: Signs, so not only already do you have this restriction that you can only have the green cross or you can only have certain signs, but then you have Park City to deal with, which is really tough, and you’re in the basement.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, and we’re in the basement and everybody’s like, sometimes we get calls and we’re like, “I’ve been driving around three times, I don’t know where it is.” It’s hard.
Tim Pickett: Yes. It is pretty restrictive.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Once you get in, it’s a beautiful store.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, it’s so bright. It’s so clean.
Tim Pickett: It really just reminds me of the Provo one though.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, it’s like a basement.
Chris Holifield: Have you got to work out of the Provo one at all?
Maddie Morrison: Just one day.
Chris Holifield: Just one day?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah. So when I was hired on, I was still working at my last job. I had put in my two weeks and then the day or two after I put in my two weeks I did my training day. Then I just had a couple of weeks to finish out my last job and then we started right away in Park City. So I didn’t really have a lot of training ahead of time, I was thrown in, but some of the other pharmacy agents did train for a while before. Carly for example, shout at Carly, she’s awesome. She has got promoted to assistant manager.
Chris Holifield: Very cool.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, but she’s been working there since the Provo store started, so she’s been there awhile.
Tim Pickett: But this is the thing about the cannabis industry, is there is a lot of room for growth-
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, totally.
Tim Pickett: … in your career?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, and Jeremy, when we all started, we all had met each other pretty much the same day for the most part. Some of us met each other off on random days, but Jeremy got us all together and he said, “Wherever you want to go in this industry, we will get you there, just learn.”
Chris Holifield: That’s awesome.
Maddie Morrison: “Learn as much as you can and teach each other and grow as much as you can and we’ll get you to where you need to be.”
Tim Pickett: Yeah, it’s a good company to work with.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah. It’s been my favorite job that I’ve ever had. The coworkers, amazing, the industry, amazing, everybody I’ve met, every patient I’ve met have just been amazing.
Tim Pickett: Can you imagine working in a regular pharmacy and how much different it would be?
Maddie Morrison: No, I don’t think I can do it. I don’t know. I love my job. I don’t want to leave.
Tim Pickett: As far as your health, do you feel like your health has really benefited from cannabis?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: What’s the biggest thing that it’s been able to do for you?
Maddie Morrison: Mood boosting, 1000% percent, and sleep obviously. But a lot of it was just depression and it really relieved a lot of that. I can easily say that before I got into my cannabis journey, I definitely was more depressed and more just … My mom used to say, “Do you have a to-me ache?” When I was saying, it’s like, everything is happening to you. You think every … It’s to-me ache. When I was younger, I definitely felt like that. And as I got more into cannabis, it was more just like, I feel more accepting. I feel happier. I feel like I’m more energized. I can sleep more. I feel like I can be fully present at my job. It’s just, I don’t feel like I’m daydreaming, and yeah.
Chris Holifield: It’s weird how we hear all these stories here like this Tim from most people that come on the show, but then yet cannabis has such a bad stigma in some people. “Oh, you’re lazy. You don’t get anything accomplished.”
Tim Pickett: You’re right.
Chris Holifield: “You just sit on the couch and eat.” When did that happen? How did that happen?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, how did that happen?
Maddie Morrison: And it’s like, “Okay, I totally do that sometimes.”
Chris Holifield: Yeah, but I do that without cannabis.
Maddie Morrison: Exactly, yeah.
Tim Pickett: Right.
Chris Holifield: If you want to do that, you’re going to do it. You’re going to sleep in. You’re going to-
Tim Pickett: Yeah, Americans watch something six hours of TV every single day, whether you’re … And there’s only a small percentage that are using cannabis at all.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: I totally agree. But I think, that’s why we’re here, right? It’s one person at a time. And then that one person has a good experience and get some relief, feels a little better, tells two people that, “Hey, you know what? I quit taking my Ambien because I take this five-milligram edible every night and man, I sleep better, I don’t walk around in my underwear out in the neighborhood and eat a block of cheese at two in the morning and I’m good.”
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Maddie Morrison: It just heals so many people. And I think that’s totally fine. Get high, use it recreationally, whatever you want to do, but when you can use it medicinally and you do recognize it’s helping me, it’s healing me, it’s helping me be a better person, a better human, like I’m sold, it just, it’s such a great industry to be in. And I think having these conversations, I think we just need to keep having them. Because if we keep having these conversations, we are going to remove those stigmas of, “Oh, you’re just a lazy stoner.”
Chris Holifield: And I think a lot of those stigmas are disappearing.
Maddie Morrison: Right, totally.
Chris Holifield: I think a lot of them, quickly too. If you look at how quickly things have progressed over the last few years in all 50 states, it’s been fun to watch.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, it has been really fun to watch. And I think the mental health aspect of cannabis, although I think it’s a little more complicated than the physical side, like back pain, I think is easier to treat with cannabis than the mental health side, because the dosing and the cannabinoids, they just play a little bigger role than just the THC in mental health.
Maddie Morrison: And I have crippling anxiety. I will hide in the bathroom or leave.
Chris Holifield: I know that one.
Maddie Morrison: I have crippling anxiety, so it helps me feel like I can have conversations. And like today I had an edible before I came here and I feel great. I feel like I can have these conversations. I feel like I can be myself and feel comfortable. And I think that’s important because if we all can feel that way, if we all can feel normal, normalizing it is a huge step forward.
Chris Holifield: Everybody deserves that.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, for sure.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: I really like the idea of being able to de-stigmatize it and just introduce people to the option that, “Hey, this is okay. It’s okay to experiment a little bit with something that’s relatively safe.” And if here, we’ve decided as a society that you’re going to do that under the care of a provider, which is great. That makes it even, I would say, even more legitimate and “more safe,” I guess. I’m sure some people would disagree with me and just want to go do what they want. On the other hand, the great thing about cannabis is you can do both, treat your condition and get the creativity that you want, because you can manipulate it when you learn how to use it, right?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, totally. And I love the idea of having patients taking their health into their own hands. I know I said that earlier, but I love that aspect, because I’m all in for holistic medicine, and I don’t know, it’s cliche to be like, “Oh, big pharma,” but I don’t know. I just love the idea of taking your own health into your own hands and having those conversations with people who may not agree with how you’re medicating. And that’s fine, not everybody is going to be on the same page, but I think that just having these conversations is a step forward.
Chris Holifield: Absolutely.
Maddie Morrison: Recently I had a conversation with one of my partner’s family members and her family is very much not okay with cannabis, and they don’t know that I have this job. At least some of them don’t know that I have this job. They live in California, so they probably won’t listen to this podcast, and if they do, that’s fine. But he visited here for a couple of days and I had the conversation of, “What are your thoughts on cannabis?” And he had a really, really, really bad experience with cannabis when he was younger. And so that’s why his family is very much not okay with it. He went into a paranoia, and had some psyche issues, and he feels he’s better now. He’s definitely better, but he’s still recovering from that. And it is very rare for that experience to happen, and that’s why they say people with schizophrenia or paranoia or those kinds of things shouldn’t probably use high levels of THC because it can enhance those effects.
Chris Holifield: And it’s important to talk about those too-
Maddie Morrison: Absolutely, yeah.
Chris Holifield: … because so often we talk about like, “Oh- ”
Maddie Morrison: “Oh, it’s good for you.”
Chris Holifield: “… smoke some weed, it’s good for you.”
Tim Pickett: “Oh, it’s great, it’s safe.”
Chris Holifield: “Yeah, it’s safe.” But there are people that it affects negatively,
Maddie Morrison: Exactly.
Tim Pickett: And I was going to ask you, can you remember times when you’ve taken something and you’ve really gotten the wrong direction-
Maddie Morrison: Totally.
Tim Pickett: … and your anxiety has gotten worse?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, especially when I’m using the tinctures on top of an edible, because they both give you different effects. And so when you’re adding two different, because they affect your body differently, tinctures versus just regular processed edibles. So when you’re adding those together, plus increasing your dosage, it definitely can give you a lot of psychoactive effects. Just a couple of days ago, I pushed my limit a little bit too far and I was really anxious and I was cold and I don’t know, it happens. But now I know not to have that much THC.
Tim Pickett: Okay, not to do that again.
Maddie Morrison: Exactly. And that’s the whole point, you write it down.
Tim Pickett: You write that down in your journal.
Maddie Morrison: Do not have that much.
Tim Pickett: You’re like, “Okay, five drops of this tincture plus one edible, X.”
Maddie Morrison: Too much. Yeah, exactly.
Chris Holifield: Not next time.
Maddie Morrison: And that’s the coolest part about it.
Tim Pickett: But that’s okay. That’s good to know for people because you can get that anxiety, too much THC is typically the cause. You can do things to help. You can take a hot shower. You can add more CBD.
Maddie Morrison: Even having CBD tincture.
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Maddie Morrison: I always do that. That’s my go-to.
Tim Pickett: Immediately take a CBD tincture.
Maddie Morrison: Stay on the floor in the shower for a couple minutes. Yeah, that’s what I usually do.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, remember that you were okay before this and give it some time. You’re really over-emphasizing the present is how I’ve heard it described, and because you’re not able to access your memories as well, and you’re not able to tell time as well, that accentuates that anxiety when you overload the brain with THC, so you got to give that time to pass.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, a lot of that is just putting yourself back into a safe space in your mindset and just being like, “Okay, I’m scared right now, I’ve had too much THC, I’m cold,” whatever you’re feeling, but just be like, “Okay, it’s just going to bounce off of me. I’m going to put my head into a safe space.” My safe space is cuddling with my girlfriends. That’s just-
Tim Pickett: When you started to use this more medically, did you have a plan? Did you figure out the dosing first?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, I think so.
Tim Pickett: Or was it like on the journey?
Maddie Morrison: I just wanted to try a bunch of things, figure out the dosing right away, write it all down and figure out what works for me, so that way I have a solid set routine next year or something. So I want to have this first year, I want to keep experimenting with it because my body can change.
Tim Pickett: Sure.
Maddie Morrison: The same things that helped me now could not help me in a year from now. So I think the biggest part of it is just keeping an open mind, trying anything that I can and just making sure that I keep track of it and keeping an open mind. And then, if I do get anxious and I’m like, “Okay, that’s not for me, that’s fine. I’ll move on or I’ll decrease the dosage,” or whatever the case. Or if I’m like, “Okay, so that tincture helped me feel good for about an hour, but then after that, it made me feel really anxious.” So then I know, “Okay, maybe I’ll decrease it by five milligrams or something.”
Maddie Morrison: So just, I’m very hyper, probably because I’m a very anxious person, I’m very hyper-aware of my body, of things around me, of what I’m hearing, of what I’m tasting, I’m very hyper-aware of everything. So whether I’m using cannabis or not, I’m always hyper-aware of how my body is feeling. So I think that definitely helps with my journey because I feel like I’m way more in tune than I used to be or than some people that I know who use cannabis.
Chris Holifield: What would you tell somebody listening that just started using and they don’t know where to go, what to look at, they just got their medical card, they maybe have been to a pharmacy once or twice, but they’re still really, really new.
Maddie Morrison: I would say don’t start with edibles.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Maddie Morrison: Because they, even five milligrams, if you’re starting start with five or less, or two and a half or something. Just start out with a good one-to-one of CBD, THC, start low, go slow. That’s the best thing with cannabis. But for me, I’m glad I didn’t start with edibles. I didn’t have an edible until I was 20. So I just smoked flower up until that point. And I feel like that was good, by the time I had tried edibles, I had a pretty good tolerance with flower that going into edibles was a really easy transition for me.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, you had a good idea on how it worked, and how it worked with your body and so on.
Maddie Morrison: How it might feel. Exactly, so I had quite a few more years to my cannabis history at that point by the time I tried edibles. So I feel like don’t start with edibles, maybe start with like a one-to-one tincture or 1:10 tincture, more CBD even, and just start with that. Start with a low amount of THC and just increase from there.
Chris Holifield: Good advice.
Tim Pickett: It is great advice.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah. And even if you want to just get high, you want to feel that edible high, I would say don’t go there because that’s not a good mindset. Don’t consume cannabis with the sole purpose to get high, because once you’re there, you could be anxious, you’ll be like, ‘Oh, my gosh, this is too much.” You’ll be very hyper aware of how high you really are.
Tim Pickett: Especially, yes, you’re hyper aware, again, you’re overemphasizing the present, and that it just makes you really aware of how things are going. And edibles you’re in for a long ride., right?
Maddie Morrison: Oh, my gosh, they last so long.
Tim Pickett: It lasts a long time. Whereas if somebody was ill, I guess, headed for that, maybe a vape cartridge would be a little bit better choice.
Maddie Morrison: Totally, vapes are great for micro-dosing and-
Tim Pickett: Yeah, and if you get a little too much, it’s only going to be an hour or two.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, totally. I like vapes for that aspect because it’s quick onset, it’s discreet, it’s micro-dosing throughout the day. You could take one drug off of it and you’re like, “Okay, all right, I’m good to go again.” It’s just like a little sip of coffee or something, I don’t know.
Chris Holifield: For get up and go.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, exactly.
Tim Pickett: I like that we’ve been comparing cannabis to coffee today.
Chris Holifield: A little stimulant.
Maddie Morrison: That’s on me, I love coffee.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Two of my favorite things right now.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, same.
Tim Pickett: They go together.
Chris Holifield: Coffee and cannabis.
Maddie Morrison: Coffee and cannabis, yeah.
Chris Holifield: I’m so glad we got you on the podcast. I’m glad you reached out to come on. And was there anything else you wanted to talk about? Was there anything else you wanted to make sure to discuss or say on the microphones before we wrap this up?
Maddie Morrison: Totally, yeah. So I think my biggest advice, and I don’t want to put a heavy weight to advice, just I recommend going slow, experiment, but don’t push yourself too hard. Don’t be too competitive with yourself to the point where you’re like, “Oh, five milligrams, that’s not enough.” And just lower your ego a little bit and have a lower dosage and you’ll be okay.
Chris Holifield: Be a cheap date. It’s not a bad thing to have a low tolerance.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, don’t be competitive with yourself, don’t get that ego.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, don’t try to compete with yourself.
Tim Pickett: Good things to tell. It’s good things to tell people, especially here, there’s a lot of people who are trying this for the first time. And it’s really opening up. We talked about not everybody loves it, but there are certainly more people who want to try it than ever.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, absolutely. And also, just have conversations with people. It’s a heavy topic. I totally get that, but just, I think it’s good to have these conversations with people and just be like, “Hey, what is your stance on cannabis?” Or, I don’t know, just start a conversation with somebody and pick their brain.
Tim Pickett: You’ll be surprised at how many people you never thought knew anything about it use a little tincture every night to sleep.
Maddie Morrison: Oh, my God, yeah. And it’s crazy because my partner’s family member, the one that I talked to about cannabis, I was like, “What’s your stance on cannabis?” And he was just like, “Well, I don’t have the best history with it. My brain doesn’t react well with the THC, but if you use it, so what?” And I was like, “What?’ I did not expect that because my partner was so like, “Do not tell him, do not tell him, do not tell my family.” She’s very scared of them being disappointed in her or them not liking me or whatever the case. But he was so open about the topic, and was interested, and wanted to see what products I use, and wanted me to explain them to him. And he knew a lot already. He knew a lot about cannabinoids already, and I was so surprised having that conversation with him. It was crazy. And I’m just like, “Why do I not have more conversations like this with people?” Because, I think it’s important to have those hard conversations.
Chris Holifield: I think for a while, and I know I’ve said this on the podcast, if you would talk about it, you would automatically get labeled, and nobody wanted to get labeled.
Maddie Morrison: Right, yeah.
Chris Holifield: And now it’s okay to be labeled that. Now it’s okay to say, “Hey, you know what, it’s legal for me to consume it.”
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: “It’s awesome for me to talk about this.” Because I’ve had jobs I didn’t talk about it because I didn’t want to get tested.
Tim Pickett: No, then you’re labeled, then you get tested, and then of course you have to deal with that.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, so you just don’t talk about it.
Tim Pickett: But you’re right, it’s not as taboo now to be labeled as a cannabis user because it’s, especially here, because you can only be a medical patient and be a cannabis user here, so it almost gives you a little bit of a cover to now use that medical as the cover to try something new.
Maddie Morrison: And then they are like, “Oh, that’s good that it’s helping you.” There are changes there.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, tell me about it.
Maddie Morrison: You’re like, “Oh, I use cannabis for PTSD.” They’re like, “Oh, okay.” And then they want to hear about it more. It’s really cool. Yeah, it’s really interesting. And being from a small conservative town coming here and also a pretty conservative state and then it being legalized, I was like, “Wow, this is awesome. This is great. I’m staying in Utah forever.” And then recently South Dakota fully legalized it for adults use and medical use.
Chris Holifield: Did they? Now, that you’ve said that, yeah.
Maddie Morrison: Which was crazy. I did not think that was going to-
Chris Holifield: And you’re like, “I want to go home now.”
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, I was like, I did not think that was going to ever happen.
Chris Holifield: Well, so they can grow it too.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, they can grow.
Tim Pickett: Well, see now you have all the opportunity in the world, right? Because all of these, the states are opening up. There’s just, we need you to go get that education and get back out here.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, seriously, I know. I just love all of the policy changes that are happening. And I do like how Utah is doing it. I think there are a lot of people who are like, “Oh, this is too strict,” or whatever the case. I think Utah’s doing it pretty well for a state that just started.
Chris Holifield: Amen, yeah.
Maddie Morrison: I think they’re doing pretty great. There are some things that are like, “Okay, that’s- ”
Chris Holifield: It could be worse though.
Maddie Morrison: Totally, it could be worse.
Tim Pickett: Certainly, it could be worse.
Maddie Morrison: It totally could be worse.
Tim Pickett: You could have incredibly restrictive, maximum purchasing like Georgia, you could have low THC rules where everything has to be under 2%.
Maddie Morrison: I think South Dakota, I think it’s two ounces now, but Utah’s four. So I’m like, Utah is, I’m fine. We’re doing great. We’re okay. And it will just totally get better.
Chris Holifield: And the fact that you can get flower here, the fact that you can go and get it the way it is not how they even first, originally is going to be in those blister packs.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, the blister packs, I remember those conversations.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, and that would have been goofy.
Tim Pickett: Totally. You would have to cut up the buds, right?
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: You would have had to destroy them just to get them in the package, in the blister pack.
Chris Holifield: I can’t even imagine.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I can’t imagine.
Maddie Morrison: No.
Tim Pickett: It wasn’t good.
Maddie Morrison: It wasn’t a good system.
Tim Pickett: No.
Chris Holifield: How can listeners get ahold of you at all? Do have Instagram? I know some of the people that come on here even have Instagrams where they share their cannabis journey. I don’t know if you do any of that?
Maddie Morrison: I don’t. I have an Instagram. I don’t really go on it. It’s just-
Chris Holifield: Or email, I don’t know. Is there a way for people, other patients to get ahold of you maybe?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, we can do my Instagram. So @_hippie_sue_ or just Maddie Morrison, you can search me up on there.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, I’m always happy to answer questions.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, and I’m going to hit you up at Deseret in Park City.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, seriously, we’re so slow right now, come on.
Tim Pickett: I can see guys. Okay, so this is good. When this airs, it’s not going to be outrageously busy in Park City, Deseret Wellness Park City it’s on Kearns Boulevard. It’s in the basement, just under the lighting store. I can’t remember exactly the address there, but-
Maddie Morrison: 1351 (Kearns Blvd) Unit B.
Tim Pickett: Unit B.
Chris Holifield: Deseretwellness.com, is probably the website or .org?
Maddie Morrison: Yeah, you can just look up Deseret Wellness Park City too.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Tim Pickett: You can look up their menu and you can go in. They have plenty of flower up there. Take a drive.
Maddie Morrison: Oh, my gosh, yeah.
Tim Pickett: It’s beautiful, the clean air.
Maddie Morrison: And if the menu is a little bit hard to find, sometimes if you just search up Deseret Wellness, it’ll immediately go to the Provo menu. So you actually have to click up on the menu box and then physically click on Park City, also it will automatically go to Provo. And then we have a ton of flower right now. I think we probably have the most flower out of any of the pharmacies right now.
Chris Holifield: Are you guys open on Sunday?
Maddie Morrison: We are open on Sunday.
Chris Holifield: You guys could Sunday drive up to Park City.
Maddie Morrison: We’re closed on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. We’re open the other days of the week.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, go up there and have some breakfast.
Chris Holifield: Very cool.
Tim Pickett: Get your medicine.
Maddie Morrison: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Perfect.
Chris Holifield: Well, thank you so much Maddie for recording with us.
Maddie Morrison: Thanks for having me.
Chris Holifield: Absolutely. And go to utahmarijuana.org/podcasts, listen to all the other podcasts. We should be in all the podcast apps to subscribe. We’re here every week with a brand-new episode. And if you want to come on the show, if you’re a patient or a pharmacist, whatever, if you’re involved in the cannabis industry, reach out to Tim or myself and-
Tim Pickett: Well, we would love to have you on.
Chris Holifield: … we’d love to have you on, probably, why not?
Tim Pickett: Why not? We need all comers.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Maddie Morrison: Yes.
Tim Pickett: We need all kinds of stories.
Maddie Morrison: Yes.
Chris Holifield: Anyway, that’s it. Anything else that either one of you want to add before we end this episode up?
Maddie Morrison: No.
Tim Pickett: No.
Maddie Morrison: Thanks so much for your time.
Tim Pickett: Thanks everybody. All right, everybody, stay safe out there.
In this episode, Tim and Chris learn from the get-go that Jilu’s Beverly Astin is the exception to the rule in Utah’s cannabis industry. Not only is she one of the few female business owners in the space, but she also came to the industry without a cannabis background.
Astin did not use cannabis as a youth. [03:28] She got into it almost by accident. At the time Utah was first developing its Medical Cannabis program, her daughter was diagnosed with epilepsy. Another friend was diagnosed with glioblastoma around the same time. That motivated Astin to start researching cannabis as a medicine. [04:36]
Through her research, Astin realized there was a business opportunity staring her in the face. Already a successful business owner, she began applying for a variety of Medical Cannabis licenses. [05:12] The only one she succeeded in obtaining was the processor’s license.
The conversation with Astin touched on a number of topics. For instance, the trio talked about CBG (cannabigerol) and combining it with CBD and THC at different levels. [13:31] Expanding on that topic led to talking about creating products that offer relief without completely diminishing function.
Astin’s company focuses a lot on CBG because it directly addresses inflammation. Better yet, it does so nearly instantly. Astin believes CBG has a lot of untapped potential worth looking into. She said her company is also looking into CBN (cannabinol) as it seems to help with sleep. [14:33]
Perhaps the most important part of the discussion focused on how both the state of Utah and business owners are working awfully hard to fully develop the medical aspects of cannabis. [22:40] They talked about research, different products (like balms) [37:46], and educating the public. Overall, this is a very interesting discussion with a business owner who looks at Medical Cannabis from that perspective.
Chris Holifield: Let’s welcome everybody out today to episode 56 of Utah in the Weeds. My name’s Chris Holifield.
Tim Pickett: And I’m Tim Pickett, a medical cannabis provider in Utah and somewhat of a medical cannabis expert, I guess. Chris?
Chris Holifield: I would consider you more than a somewhat of a cannabis medical expert.
Tim Pickett: I think we’re all just learning still. It’s like the tip of the iceberg with what I think is available.
Chris Holifield: Very true.
Tim Pickett: As far as knowledge goes, but this is an exciting interview with Jilu. Literally, it took me. I’ve been in this, and I’ve used their products, and it took me ’til this interview for that to click.
Chris Holifield: To figure out how to pronounce the name.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, and that it was about healing you. Yeah, it’s creative. I love it.
Chris Holifield: I love it, too. Beverly Astin, the owner of Jilu and then Life Elevated Processing — we talked about that. I mean, this is such a fun conversation. She had so much energy and such a passion for cannabis and kind of trying new things in the industry and talking about the CBG:CBD combinations for sleeping.
Tim Pickett: I also like that she comes from outside of the cannabis space. She doesn’t have a background in the cannabis space. She has a background in people and her business.
Chris Holifield: She loves people!
Tim Pickett: She really likes people. So she has really embraced this medical aspect of the Utah program. So I think she fits really, really well in here. She’s a woman business owner in the cannabis industry, which is not very common. So it’s exciting to get to talk to her and to watch these companies kind of enter and grow in this space.
Chris Holifield: What’s been going on with you, Tim? You got a new location opening up here in like a week or two, right?
Tim Pickett: Oh, yeah. So soft opening of Provo. So we’re back in Utah County. We tried it. We had a little bit of some logistical and legal stuff that we had to work out, but we are in the same building as Deseret Wellness. We’re at the front corner of that building. Grand opening on May 11th. Come on down, taco trucks, taco truck Tuesday.
Chris Holifield: Yeah!
Tim Pickett: New patients will get a voucher, of course, for free tacos. Come down, hang out with us. We’ll be there at least 12 to 6. The pharmacy is open 11 to 7. So we’re just trying to coordinate so people can get a better experience right there in Utah County. Super excited about that location.
Chris Holifield: Dude, I’m excited, too. Utah County! I mean, that is awesome. And then, don’t forget, you can go to UtahMarijuana.org/podcast to listen to all the podcast episodes. They’re all there right online, and then easily shareable. Share some of those episodes out on Facebook and Twitter and stuff, and let’s get the audience built up here because I’m sure there’s a lot of people here in Utah and beyond that would benefit from listening to this podcast.
Tim Pickett: Absolutely.
Chris Holifield: Anyway, let’s get into this conversation with Beverly. I enjoyed chatting with her, so I think you guys are going to enjoy listening to this one. Here we go.
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Chris Holifield: With you, I think a good place to start, I think a good place to start with most people we chat with is kind of share where their cannabis journey started. When did that happen for you? When did cannabis get introduced to your life?
Beverly Astin: I’m from the south. So I’m the youngest of seven children. So my brothers, in the 70s, they were growing cannabis in my mom’s backyard, and my mom was a gardener that made Martha Stewart look like an amateur. So I had a few older brothers that grew cannabis. So it was just there. I was never a cannabis user. So now it’s really funny. My younger brothers think it’s so funny that their baby sister is now in the cannabis business. So…
Tim Pickett: What did mom think about cannabis growing in the backyard?
Chris Holifield: Yeah, like a lot of it or a couple plants?
Tim Pickett: Or where they were hiding it…
Beverly Astin: I think they were just sneaking a couple little plants.
Chris Holifield: Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.
Beverly Astin: I think they were just sneaking a couple plants in for their friends and their own use, but that, I just really didn’t know much about cannabis at all except me and my girlfriends in high school, we snuck a few of my brothers’ from out from underneath their mattress. Something just to give it a try, but that was my only, really, experience with cannabis.
Beverly Astin: I had no experience with cannabis, and when the medical cannabis program, I heard that it was coming to Utah, it was about the same time that my daughter got diagnosed with epilepsy. Then another one of our friends got diagnosed with a glioblastoma. So I started researching all these cannabinoids. And I had used CBD a little bit. Actually, felt really good with some of the things that I had done just with CBD islet. Just nothing even really full-spectrum, but noticed a little bit of a difference.
Beverly Astin: So once you, as a mother, you have a sick child or you have a dear friend that cannabis could help, boy, you really dig in and you research it. At the same time, I thought, “Wow, this could be an amazing business opportunity, as well.” My daughter started using some of the CBG, CBN different combinations for epilepsy, and we’re working with a neurologist, and it just went from there. So I saw a business opportunity, as well, and I’m never one to turn one of those down. So I started applying for the licenses. Did not get a pharmacy license.
Tim Pickett: But you applied for a pharmacy license, too. Okay.
Beverly Astin: I did. I applied for a pharmacy license and a processing license. And we didn’t make it to the next round because our traditional business is car dealership. So we had a lot of regulatory experience, but no cannabis experience. So we did not get granted any of the other licenses, but we did get a processing license. So hence our journey now, we are Life Elevated Processing. We’ve joined up with our partner, Darren Long, and it’s been really exciting to get going. We’re only about six months in with our Tier 1 processing.
Chris Holifield: So you had no prior cannabis anything.
Beverly Astin: No.
Chris Holifield: You weren’t growing in other states or anything.
Beverly Astin: No. Nope. None at all. So they had a processing facility down in Vineyard, Darren, my partner, that they were doing hemp. And then we’ve just kind of collaborated and started doing… We have some really wonderful people that have been in more the traditional black market side and know how to make really great product. Our formulator, Kevin, his wife has a glioblastoma as well, and he’s been treating her with a lot of CBG. She’s not responded really great to traditional methods of treating her glioblastoma. So she’s been doing really well with a lot of the minor cannabinoids with THC, as well.
Tim Pickett: It’s kind of one of those cancers that there seems to be a lot of attention paid to the cannabinoid therapies.
Beverly Astin: Exactly.
Tim Pickett: Before we started recording you — you know Blake Smith.
Beverly Astin: Yep.
Tim Pickett: Right? We, all three of us, know Blake Smith.
Beverly Astin: Amazing person.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. He and I have been talking about this, actually this type of cancer and cannabinoids lately.
Beverly Astin: Yeah. There’s a really wonderful company out of Carlsbad, California that I think they’re a London-based company. They’re called Greenwich Labs, and they are producing the only FDA-approved cannabis drug for limited treatment options like glioblastoma and a few of the really — Tourette’s — really incurable — epilepsy — those really hard to treat things. So that’s a really awesome company to look into, as well. They’re doing some amazing stuff with FDA approval of cannabis.
Tim Pickett: Of these cannabis therapies.
Beverly Astin: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: What was the first product you guys made six months ago?
Beverly Astin: The first product that we came out with was our vape carts because right now, we feel like in the market in Utah, we are still in a market in Utah where people are being educated on all the minor cannabinoids. Right now, I think we’re still seeing people chasing high THC levels.
Chris Holifield: Because that’s all we know.
Beverly Astin: That’s all…
Tim Pickett: That’s all anybody knows.
Beverly Astin: That’s all anyone knows right now. And as we are starting to make products now that have one to one to one ratios like CBG:CBD:THC syringes that people can cook with and bake with and put under their tongue, I want to create more products where people can really use them in olive oil, in their cooking, for kids with epilepsy, kids with autism. But our first product was a vape cart, but a lot of our vape carts and all of them have a ton of minor cannabinoids. And just like you said, Tim, we just started one that’s a 1:1 THC:CBG combination for people that want to have relief from their pain and anxiety but still be able to function at 100%.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, it’s definitely a more… It’s got to be designed with that much CBG in it. It’s got to be designed for the medical market.
Beverly Astin: That’s right.
Tim Pickett: Somebody who wants a little bit of an uplifting kind of attitude. Excuse me. And then pain, there’s some good research about CBG and pain. So it is. And that particular vape cart’s only available in Bountiful, at the pharmacy in Wholesome.
Beverly Astin: Yeah. At Wholesome. And so what some of the pharmacies are wanting to do is have their own kind of strain, their signature. So we’re letting Beehive choose one right now, the strain that they like that’s one to one, and Dragonfly is choosing a strain. So they can have their own kind of signature, “Oh, this is our brand of that one to one.” But what is great about educating the Utah market on those minor cannabinoids is you can still function at 100% but have some relief.
Beverly Astin: I don’t know about y’all, but I don’t have all day to… I mean, I’ve got to function. Most people still have to function, but it will give you some relief, that CBG, even from the anxiety that pain causes, cancer patients that have so much anxiety from their pain levels or back pain, chronic pain, but it just takes that edge off their pain where they can still go throughout their day and function at 100%. So we just don’t want people to be chasing that high THC because those minor cannabinoids, even if they are looking for a high, even those minor cannabinoids can give them a better entourage effect of really feeling that sense of wellbeing, that sense of, “Oh, okay. I’m going to be all right.”
Tim Pickett: Right. That is something that’s just, I think, at the beginning stages. I think that there’s just so much more to learn about that.
Beverly Astin: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: So it’s interesting from a business and a medical perspective, and we’ve talked to quite a few people in the Utah market that are really into producing medicine.
Beverly Astin: Absolutely.
Tim Pickett: Right?
Chris Holifield: Which is cool. I mean, [crosstalk 00:12:17]
Beverly Astin: That’s right.
Tim Pickett: It’s pretty cool.
Chris Holifield: So you make vape carts and syringes, right? Is that what…
Beverly Astin: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Concentrate. It’s the same…
Chris Holifield: Syringe. Yeah.
Tim Pickett: It’s the same stuff that’s in your vape carts, but a different delivery form.
Beverly Astin: It’s a little bit different delivery form, and we call it FECO, which a traditional RSO is created a little bit differently in those vacuum ovens, and if Rick Simpson was around today, he would really be happy with the new technology that’s going on. We’ve gotten a little flack for not doing it the old school, traditional, Rick Simpson way, but it’s our version. Our full spectrum, FECO is our version of Rick Simpson oil. It’s just a cleaner version. It takes out some of those plant particles, that chlorophyll, where it gets into the body and your body uses it a little bit better. We clean off some of that stuff with our wipe film process that gets rid of some of that junk in the oil, that dirty stuff that your body’s not going to use anyway. But some people still think that plant matter does some good. And there’s two sides to every story to that.
Chris Holifield: Tell me about that, you have a 1:1:1 of THC:CBD:CBG.
Beverly Astin: Yes.
Chris Holifield: I’ve never seen that. How does that… Does that work pretty good for people?
Beverly Astin: It’s amazing for people who are looking for relief from pain, anxiety, just inflammation in general. CBG is kind of the mother cannabinoid, and sometimes CBD takes a few weeks to really see some of the effects of CBD. CBG automatically goes in and starts fighting inflammation, which, in the medical community, inflammation is kind of the root, people are finding, of so many different diseases, especially autoimmune.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Beverly Astin: Autoimmune disease like RA, MS, so many are inflammation-driven, and it gives people immediate — they can almost feel immediate relief with CBG. So we really want to hit some of those.
Beverly Astin: And another one, CBN, that is really big right now for sleep. That’s one that you’re going to be seeing Jilu, our brand, do a lot of CBN. People need… I’m just going to tell you. It’s replaced my husband’s Ambien.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Beverly Astin: And he was a nut job on Ambien. He would online shop on Ambien.
Chris Holifield: We’ve talked about that! [crosstalk 00:14:55]
Beverly Astin: We have all these…
Tim Pickett: Online shopping, walking in the neighborhood.
Beverly Astin: Yeah!
Tim Pickett: All kinds of things, and it’s one of the things we talk about in clinic all the time because we’re kind of becoming this #deprescribe specialty clinic, and Ambien, Gabapentin, opioids, Benzos, you’re talking about cancer patients with pain and Benzos. And the chronic pain causes so much depression.
Beverly Astin: Yep.
Tim Pickett: And people are on both. And those medications just have bad long-term side effects. So CBN is a great alternative.
Beverly Astin: It’s a beautiful alternative.
Tim Pickett: For those types of things. Do you have products out right now that have a lot of CBN or are you working on those?
Beverly Astin: So right now, what’s exciting about the state of Utah and what they’re doing with the medical program is everything that the processors do is test it three different times. When we get biomass from the growers, we have to test it. Once we turn it into that next stage oil, it’s tested again. And then when we make our product, our products are tested before they go into the pharmacy. So what’s nice about this, we don’t always like it because it takes a little longer to make product, it’s a little more expensive to make product, but what the consumer can feel really good about in this state is you’re getting a pure, tested product with C of As, just like you would if you were going to your pharmacy. You’re going to know what’s in that product. So you can go on even Zion’s products, they’re making the products. You can go on all of our websites and see our C of As. When you go into the pharmacy, you can look on the back of our labels, and you can see all those minor cannabinoids in there and how much is in there.
Beverly Astin: So what’s exciting is we’re pulling these natural terpenes off, so cannabis-derived terpenes. We’re doing all this natural medicine that have a range, a big range of these minor cannabinoids, CBD, or CBG, I mean, all of them. And you can kind of see how much of each one is in there. So yes, we’re putting tons of these minors in. So yeah, we do have a lot of products with smaller levels of CBN right now, but we’re going to be doing some with higher levels of CBN in them, too, just for sleep.
Chris Holifield: That’s awesome.
Beverly Astin: So it’s exciting.
Tim Pickett: What’s it like regulatory-wise? So getting into this without having the cannabis experience, you knew you were getting into a heavily regulated industry, and you did, I’m sure, hours and hours of research, hired attorneys who did hours and hours of research, all of the above. But then you get into it. Were you undereducated?
Beverly Astin: Yes. Very much so. To be nice, we’ll just call it a crap show.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, yeah.
Beverly Astin: But it really was just the regulations, but in a way, you know… I can’t imagine anyone getting a vape cart made in someone’s kitchen. That’s just not okay. It’s just not okay.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, like the whole vape cart craze, when everyone was getting sick or stuff like that from that? Man, that was scary.
Beverly Astin: All the fillers and all the things that were being put in that were fatty, that were causing people to have all these lung problems and die from inhaling all these fatty agents like MTC oil, all these things that they were filling with. So what’s nice is, when you vape something from the state of Utah, you know what you’re vaping is the cleanest form of medicine that you could put into your lungs. Are there maybe cleaner forms to use? That answer may be yes for some people. Are you going to get immediate relief like you would from vaping? Not that fast.
Beverly Astin: So the tinctures are great for under the tongue, the edibles, they have to go through the liver. So you’re 45 minutes before you get some real relief with an edible. So the vaping is such a great thing because you’re going to get almost immediate relief. And I feel like it’s such a clean product because it’s been tested thoroughly in the state that people who haven’t even thought about vaping… I’ve never considered vaping before ever, but Kevin, our formulator, has made me a vape pen for CBG:CBN, where I can sleep at night, and I can have some inflammation relief even without the THC.
Beverly Astin: So now we’re coming out with some products that if you don’t want THC, great! Here’s a CBN pen that can just help you sleep at night. Are you going to have a better effect with a little bit of THC? Yes. Do you have to do a lot of THC to activate those? Those cannabinoids are meant to work simultaneously together. They work better in conjunction together. So you’re going to get a better overall effect, even just with a tiny bit of THC. So it’s exciting medicine. It’s really awesome.
Chris Holifield: Tell me about the name Jilu. I love that because it’s different spelling. It’s different. Where did that come from? What’s the motivation, inspiration behind that?
Beverly Astin: We wanted to kind of give something someone to talk about when they said, “How do you pronounce that? What is that?”
Chris Holifield: Well, yeah, that’s what I ran into.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. Every time, right?
Beverly Astin: Yeah. People are like, “Jilu, J-I-L-U, how do you pronounce it?” And so we just took that J in there and…
Chris Holifield: Had a little bit of fun with it, huh?
Beverly Astin: Yeah. Jalapeno, Javalina, something, Javalina, whatever, however you want to say it. But we thought the J may be kind of a fun play on, “Oh, let’s give people something to talk about on how do you pronounce your brand.” And now it’s kind of catching on. Everyone’s, “Okay. Oh, it’s Jilu! Oh, I get it.” It’s a little just play on words.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I mean, you definitely have to say it a few times when you go into the pharmacies, and you’re like, “Oh, that’s a Jilu cart.” And you’re like, “What?” I mean, it’s great because yeah, you’ve got to say it three or four times before you even pick up the product.
Beverly Astin: Exactly.
Tim Pickett: So everybody knows about it. You make great vape carts. They’re very, very effective. As a processor, you don’t grow your own. So where are you getting the biomass?
Beverly Astin: Well, what’s been really wonderful is I have to do a big shoutout, and I did this. I wasn’t a big social media person before, but now, on our Instagram, I’ve kind of been in charge of our Instagram. So I respond to everybody’s comments, and I’ve gotten to know the patients really well, what they like. “Tell us what strain you would like to see,” or “What combinations you’d like to see,” but I just did a big shout out to our Utah growers, and I have to just say, Randy [Gleave] at Tryke, he has been wonderful in getting us biomass. Now Blake at Zion’s, they’re getting enough. They don’t have enough flower for us yet. I’m begging them for it. So come on, you guys. If they hear this, give Jilu some flower.
Beverly Astin: But they are giving us some really good trim to work with. Harvest has just started to give us a little bit, as well. So the Utah growers, they’re doing their best. So give those guys a little bit of a break. I know that people want more flower immediately. We’re trying to grow this program as fast as we can, but in the defense of the state of Utah, no one expected it to grow this fast. No one expected to have this sort of a response. And I feel like, Tim, like you, that people are looking for alternative medicine. They’re looking for something different than a crappy opioid that makes them feel sick, that makes them feel constipated, that has all these side effects, the yucky feeling and side effects you get from Ambien, just all of these pharmaceutical drugs that have just been shoved down our throat. People are sick of that. They don’t want it.
Tim Pickett: It’s twofold, too. In my opinion, you say “shove down people’s throats,” which essentially is true, right? We sit there, we listen to patients talk and complain about their ailment, and then we write a prescription, “Here, take this twice a day. Or take this at night,” or whatever. And people don’t really have a lot of choice.
Beverly Astin: They don’t.
Tim Pickett: At least they didn’t feel like they do. And cannabis does those two things. It gives them the choice to experiment with their own health and to make choices on their own about their medicine and access to things that, in the long run, could be less harmful in a lot of ways. So it’s a fun industry to be a part of, and it’s fun to see the growth of the marketplace, of the patient growth. It’s fun to hear people’s stories.
Chris Holifield: Oh, absolutely.
Beverly Astin: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Right?
Beverly Astin: And what’s exciting to me, too, is educating the state of Utah. And I feel like, as a woman, if we educate the women of Utah, we educate Utah. Women usually are the ones going to the doctor, calling for their husbands for their prescriptions, calling for their kids, and I feel like losing that stigma of just THC or cannabis for getting high. I want that to be gone. Yes, there are people who need it that are suffering miserably with anxiety and depression that that stony effect, they need that to relax and to unwind, as well, but it’s not just for everyone. Everyone doesn’t like that stony feeling. So if we can offer both, that’s great. But I think if we can lose that stigma of cannabis just being around for people to get high, that’s not the only purpose for cannabis.
Beverly Astin: So I feel like women’s job in Utah will really be to… Let’s back up three steps here and look about the history of cannabis. It’s our oldest medicine on the planet. And it was demonized mid-century, 50, 60 years ago. And now we have to retrain people on a different way to approach cannabis as a healing drug instead of just a get stoned…
Chris Holifield: Something to buy in the back alleyway.
Beverly Astin: That’s right!
Chris Holifield: Just a sack of…
Beverly Astin: Yeah, and I think we’re doing good, though. I think Utah, I see a lot of people putting their feet forward to try to debunk all of that garbage and say, “No, this is something that saves people’s lives, whatever you’re using it for.”
Chris Holifield: Now, is Life Elevated Processing, are they processing carts for other people, too?
Beverly Astin: We’re just starting to do that. So funny that you should ask that. We just met with a really awesome group of women this morning, Acrely Farms, and they’re two women that started their own farm up in Logan, and they are doing wonderful CBD:CBG products. And then, of course, some of the growers who do not have processing yet, we’re really trying to do some work for them as well.
Chris Holifield: Right, like why process? Why not just do it here?
Beverly Astin: Yeah! Exactly. So we’re doing that, and a big shout out to the other processors. Boojum is an independent processor like us, and also Wasatch, Steve at Wasatch. So they’re doing a great job, as well, just really trying. I love Boojum’s marketing. They’re really good about trying to educate people in a way of medicine, as well. So I feel like there’s not a lot of processors yet in the Utah space, but what I’ve loved so far about meeting with everyone in Utah is it really… And I attribute the growers to trying to create an environment of let’s all help each other. Yes, we are competitors. We are all going to have product in the pharmacies that compete against each other, but what we really want to do is join forces together because we want to educate the state and work together. We have so much more in common than we have to be divided.
Beverly Astin: So I really have to commend Utah and some of the growers for really… Randy at Tryke has really done that. I feel like, just Chris, at Wholesome, I was talking to him the other day, and people are really trying to work together in way that doesn’t feel like, “Oh, I can’t be friends with you because you’re my competition.”
Tim Pickett: Yeah. There’s just not enough patients in the state to even need to compete.
Beverly Astin: That’s right.
Tim Pickett: Right? I mean, I guess, you could compete later when there’s…
Chris Holifield: When there’s a lot more out there.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. When there’s 100,000, 150,000, let’s get the information out there.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, right now we just need to get the medicine, we need to get the information.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, instead of worried about that, right?
Beverly Astin: Absolutely.
Tim Pickett: And I think the growers are doing a pretty good job of that.
Beverly Astin: They are.
Tim Pickett: You would know that better than anybody because you’re reaching out to all them saying, “Hey, next month, I’m going to need some biomass because I’m going to run out of stuff to do.”
Beverly Astin: Yeah, you can just ask the growers. I call them. Cooking is my hobby. So I’ve even made lots of them biscuits and gravy, homemade. I bring them in lunch. What can I do for you? I mean, I owe the guys at Beehive across the street some breakfast burritos. I feel like right now, you’re exactly right. Whatever we can do to help each other out in the state to really just get the program up and running, and get it running well where it has a really good reputation, and working on the hill with legislation, that’s something I just recently joined both Utah Cannabis Association and the Co-op because I feel like we want to work together. And we want to keep this a state that is Utah medicine. We don’t want it to become overrun and have it become all recreational before we even get people educated that, “Hey, this is real medicine for people who need it in the state.” I feel like people are really working really well together, and that’s a big shoutout to everyone in the business so far. I feel like we’re doing a good job of that.
Chris Holifield: Seems that way, from what I’ve seen at least.
Beverly Astin: But I have had to beg Blake and all the… like, “Hey Blake, please, can I get some?” And they just laugh at me. “Okay, Beverly, okay.”
Tim Pickett: So of anybody who complains about not enough flower and not enough growing going on, I mean, you probably have the best argument to make. Right?
Beverly Astin: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Tim Pickett: The individual that can’t get enough flower is important, but you make a lot of products and need a lot of material to do that.
Beverly Astin: That’s right.
Tim Pickett: So there are growers that just haven’t ramped up yet, right?
Beverly Astin: And they’re trying. They’re doing their best. So we’ve gotten a little bit of backlash on social media and stuff that, “Oh, nobody’s making anything good yet, and there’s not enough good this.” But my answer to that is “just be patient.” It’s going to just keep getting better. We are just now doing a product that we’re doing R&D on right now, just some good research and development on. We’re buying some CBG, and we’re doing fresh-frozen, right into our subzero, 80 degree below zero freezers.
Beverly Astin: So we can add some of that CBG:CBD in when we do get this flower from the growers to do some really nice live rosins, some really great medicine for people that just has nothing. It’s solventless. It’s beautiful that we can put right into a rosin press and get people just that whole product. And when you freeze it at that level, a lot of the trichomes and all of the cannabis-based terpenes, the smells, the flavors, everything are just true medicine from the plant. I mean, it doesn’t get any more true. We do CO2 processing in our facility, and a lot of people are doing ethanol extraction and different methods, but really it’d just be beautiful to do a lot of that solventless where you have none of those involved in the plant process at all. You just get pure plant.
Chris Holifield: See, and I’m not very familiar with any of that.
Tim Pickett: I know a live rosin is a fantastic product, though. It’s a very pure product, and it’s an experience on its own. People like certain types of strains, certain types of flowers. When you get into the concentrates, a good live rosin is…
Beverly Astin: Yeah. And it’s great natural medicine without any of the solvents involved in the extraction process. So it really is just pressed, hot pressed into, it’s called a rosin press, and you just put those right in and just press out. It looks like a…
Tim Pickett: Just oozes out.
Beverly Astin: Yes. Yes.
Tim Pickett: It is like the consistency of honey.
Beverly Astin: Yes.
Tim Pickett: But then it hardens up to where you can roll it in your hand.
Beverly Astin: Yep. And people can use it in different methods. That’s what we want people to be able to… We want to offer them the method of choice that they like to treat. Some people just like to use it in different ways, and whatever way you like to use it, we want to offer that for you. But I want the Utah patients to be patient with us. It’s going to get better. It’s just going to keep getting better, and the growers, they’re already growing better than when we came on board six months ago. We’re already getting better at stuff from the growers. It’s just getting better every time. So I just urge people just to be patient with us all because we’re all getting a little bit of flack. But be patient. It’s going to just keep getting better.
Chris Holifield: Tell me about your daughter with epilepsy. I’m not very familiar with epilepsy. What was she using before cannabis, before THC and all that?
Beverly Astin: Well, she still is working with a neurologist, and she still is on a seizure medication, as well, but when she feels a seizure coming on or when, they call it…. When you start to get a seizure, when you feel it coming on, it’s almost like a deja vu, and you go into a state before you get into that seizure, and if she can kind of catch it right before she goes into a seizure…
Chris Holifield: She can stop it.
Beverly Astin: She can stop it. And that’s the beauty of cannabis. I don’t know if you guys have seen Charlotte’s Web, what it’s doing for people who have multiple seizures a day. It’s bringing like hundreds of seizures, and a lot with young children, those multiple seizures, it’s cutting them down to maybe just a few a week instead of maybe a hundred a day. So CBD and all those minor cannabinoids are doing amazing things with just epilepsy. So I really would like to see end-of-life patients have a better option than morphine where they can enjoy their families in their end of life. I want people to start to open their minds up to cannabis for that instead of being drugged out on morphine where you can’t even really enjoy your family in end of life.
Beverly Astin: So there’s just so many different… My mother-in-law who has MS, she was our R&D test guinea pig, or rat, I guess you should say. She was our test patient for our REB, our balm that we just created, and we started out with the CBD, and then started with 100 mg of THC, and she’s like, “Eh, don’t really see a difference.” Then we bumped it to 200 mg of THC, and she was like, “Oh. Maybe you’re getting somewhere.” Once we got to 400 mg of THC with about 1,000 mg of CBD, she’s like, “Now, you have something.” And she rubs it on her body, her MS, she’s in late stages of MS. So she’s had it for about 30 years, and it’s giving her so much relief that it’s been life-changing. And that, she won’t vape it. She won’t ingest it, but she will use a balm.
Chris Holifield: And relief without the high for people listening that have never used any of the rubs or the creams or the balms or anything like that, it’s so awesome for that.
Beverly Astin: Exactly.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, and I’m always surprised at how well they work.
Beverly Astin: It’s amazing.
Chris Holifield: Can you get your balm at Beehive?
Beverly Astin: You can get our balm at Beehive. Now you can get our balm everywhere.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, yeah, I was just going to say. I’ll have to get some of that sometime.
Tim Pickett: So that’s a strong balm.
Beverly Astin: That’s a strong balm.
Tim Pickett: Yep. 400 mg of THC in one container.
Beverly Astin: In a 2 ounce container.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, that’s going to be a strong balm.
Chris Holifield: So somebody with a little more pain, somebody a little more…
Tim Pickett: Yeah because you’ve got Zion, that cypress, sage that they have, I think is 100 or 200. I think yours is probably the strongest.
Beverly Astin: It might be the strongest, but I know I’ve used Zion’s and it works great. Theirs works great, too.
Tim Pickett: My experience is yes. It’s these topicals that drive. They work for migraines. We have people with migraines, especially hand and feet, arthritis and arthritic pain, dis-inflammation in pain. But then I’ve been even surprised, and I didn’t think this was going to be the case with deeper tissues, like back pain and this muscle pain. And for some reason, it shouldn’t be penetrating that deep, but for some reason, it just works, and it’s penetrating really deep. I only have met a couple of people who get, they do get a little psychoactivity with high-dose topicals.
Beverly Astin: They do.
Chris Holifield: Oh, really?
Beverly Astin: They do.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. I’ve met. I mean, I have a specific patient that I can think of that definitely…
Chris Holifield: Like what happens?
Tim Pickett: They just get a little high.
Chris Holifield: Really?
Beverly Astin: Yeah, they just feel a little bit.
Tim Pickett: Yep, they feel a little off.
Beverly Astin: And I can relate because that’s me. I’m not a cannabis user on a regular basis. So I don’t need it for much, but I have some joint conditions. So I use the healing balm, and I can attest to you that if you’re not a THC user, like a vaper or a gummy user, that you will feel a little bit not so much like, “Oh, I can’t function,” but you’ll feel a little bit like, “Oh, okay. Something’s happening.”
Chris Holifield: That’s good to know.
Tim Pickett: It’s just a little head change.
Beverly Astin: Yep, a little head change. You will notice that.
Tim Pickett: If you use enough. Now, I would say that’s pretty rare, still. I think most people that we take care of are not getting any psychoactivity from the balms. And we usually recommend that they can use it liberally. I mean, these are things, other than the cost of the balm. It seems like the cost of the balms is a little high.
Beverly Astin: The cost is about $100 for an ounce to two ounces, and we were trying to get those costs down. That’s been another big complaint in the Utah market is getting the cost down, but as the growers really start growing, that cost is going to come down a little bit. Right now, we pay $700 to $1,000 per pound for biomass. So that makes it expensive when you have to… That’s before even you start making the product. So as that price starts coming down, things will become more affordable. But back to the balm. If you have joint pain, and you have chronic back pain, headaches, migraines, the back of your neck where you feel that migraine coming on, people swear by the balm.
Beverly Astin: And if you’re not a cannabis user, this is a great entry to cannabis. This is a great way to say, “Okay, I’m going to try cannabis without ingesting it.” And then, when you feel a little more comfortable with it, like I now will use a 5 mg gummy to help me sleep at night with CBN. So a 5 mg THC is very small amount, but I wasn’t a cannabis user. So to me, that was a great entry place to get some relief, put me to sleep, take away some pain and start slow. And our syringes that we just came out with that have the 1:1:1, one part of each, they’re a lower potency. We have a high, for more pain, people who are heavier users that have higher pain levels. We have a high 80 to 90% potency in our high — we call it our lightly distilled cannabis oil.
Beverly Astin: And then our full spectrum is a 70 to 80%. And then once you get the one to ones, we have a 1:1 CBG:THC. That brings it down a little more. And then the 1:1 to one brings it down to about 30% to 50% THC, depending on where our potencies are at the time in the lab. So if you are chasing higher THC, we have those products, but if you’re looking for an entry-level, just a small amount…
Tim Pickett: First timer’s club.
Beverly Astin: That’s right!
Tim Pickett: It really, and we talked about it kind of at the beginning where we’re talking about to grow the market here and not just from a business standpoint, but to grow the acceptance of cannabis and the de-stigmatization, so to speak, of cannabis, we might have just hit the sweet spot with the topicals.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Because you could get the mom, you could get that person who is outwardly doesn’t like the smell, is not going to vape anything, but has something that they’re like, “Man, I want to try this in a legitimate way. I don’t need a grinder and flower and have all that.”
Chris Holifield: Big bong.
Tim Pickett: Get a big bong. That’s just so intimidating to a lot of people.
Beverly Astin: And even to me. I had no idea what dabbing was or…
Chris Holifield: Oh, yeah. All that stuff can get so confusing.
Beverly Astin: I mean, I had no idea about all of that, but that’s how some people want to use it. And that’s okay, too.
Tim Pickett: But it’s usually not the first introduction to cannabis.
Beverly Astin: Right. It’s not.
Tim Pickett: Unless it’s a strictly recreational introduction, and that’s how you got introduced was somebody with a dabber at their party or whatever. This, we have got to find ways to introduction cannabis to people that is completely non-intimidating.
Beverly Astin: That’s right.
Tim Pickett: We have to go what we think is too far, I think.
Beverly Astin: I agree.
Tim Pickett: And I’m somebody who’s… We’re all neck-deep in this cannabis. So we talk about that we have all the lingo and we know all the terms. So we can walk into a pharmacy and feel fairly comfortable with the people and with the pictures on the wall and with the products in there, but I think for most of who we want to expose cannabis to in Utah.
Chris Holifield: You figure, most people go in, what, once a month. They buy a couple of things, maybe, if even that.
Tim Pickett: If even that.
Chris Holifield: And they’re in and out, and they don’t have the time to talk. So they’re not learning anything.
Tim Pickett: Right.
Beverly Astin: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, and those first-timers…
Beverly Astin: They’re really nervous.
Tim Pickett: They are so nervous, and so we’ve got to figure out ways to do it. God bless the people at the pharmacies, but they’re all neck deep in cannabis all the time, too. So it’s normal for them to say, “Well, do you usually smoke? Do you usually use joints?”
Chris Holifield: Yeah, but they have to watch what they say, though. They have to be careful.
Tim Pickett: They do.
Chris Holifield: So they can’t really sit there and probably have all the conversations with patients because they can’t really sit there and…
Beverly Astin: What’s nice is, another thing I’ll commend the state on is it’s really nice for someone to come in and meet with a pharmacist first, and they can talk about. I’ve seen so many older people in the pharmacies as I’m delivering product to the pharmacies. I’ve seen so many… I talked with a man the other day who has prostate cancer, and he’s never used cannabis. He’s probably 80 years old, and I had a 30-minute conversation with him about, just “Hey, this would be a great starting place for you.” And it was so nice to have conversations with people who really want to try it for relief and want to try it to feel better, but just don’t really know where to start. So I love that they’re meeting with a pharmacist. They’re getting familiar because a few of these patients, they look like deer in the headlights when they’re walking in. They’re like, “What in the hell did I just walk into? What am I doing? I don’t know anything about cannabis.”
Beverly Astin: And I can say, I’m pretty much the same. I didn’t know a lot about it. So the education and the research and the meeting with the pharmacists, it’s a great place for people to be able to start and really ask questions and sit down and not be so scared of, “Oh, a tincture. What’s a tincture?” People don’t even know what a tincture is, but we just came out with our one to one to one CBG, CBN or CBD tincture with the THC, and that’s a great place to start. It’s just a wonderful place to start is one drop under your tongue, see how you feel. If one drop doesn’t work, okay. Tomorrow or this evening, I’m going to go to two drops, and just play with it a little bit and see where your relief level comes in. And cannabis works on each of us so differently.
Beverly Astin: That’s another thing that we really haven’t… I mean, it really affects every single person so differently.
Chris Holifield: Well, then depending on the day, too, because one strain might work on a Monday, but then on a Friday, it might not work as well.
Beverly Astin: Or if you eat…
Tim Pickett: Depends on what you eat.
Beverly Astin: And if you’ve eaten. If you have eaten or you haven’t eaten.
Tim Pickett: I think your perspective is unique in the Utah industry because you come from a place that’s not cannabis-heavy. So I think our discussion, we’ve talked a lot about these products with… You talked about a one to one to one, that’s a 30% THC product. That is not what a lot of these, frankly, a lot of the growers and the processors came into this to do. They came in to…
Chris Holifield: To grow weed.
Tim Pickett: To grow weed.
Beverly Astin: Absolutely.
Tim Pickett: Because that’s what makes money.
Beverly Astin: That’s right.
Tim Pickett: In the short run, there’s a play there to just load this market with high THC products, and there’s going to be a lot of people who want that, but coming into it from a non-cannabis, essentially, non-cannabis user space, you’re more open, it sounds like, to making products that aren’t just knock-your-socks-off get you high. However, you know that you’re going to have to have a broad range.
Beverly Astin: Absolutely.
Tim Pickett: So you’re really starting in a good place, already to see these vape carts with the 1:1 CBG:THC, I think is pretty impressive in Utah. I don’t know that you could find a lot of that stuff out of state because that’s a very medical product.
Beverly Astin: It is a medical product, and we want, and those syringes, I think, look really medical, and to educate people that you can cook with them. You can put them in a brownie recipe. You can put them in an olive oil. You can mix that with honey butter for a piece of toast.
Chris Holifield: How much would you mix, for people listening? Like say they don’t know where to start.
Tim Pickett: You’ve got a one milliliter syringe… No, no, no, ten milliliters.
Beverly Astin: Yeah. So one gram.
Tim Pickett: One gram.
Beverly Astin: So one gram, and we’ve made five different products in our syringe line. So for the higher users, and for the lower users, and we want you to start, if you are not a user, with 1:1:1. And start with a low and just start with a half of a milligram. And on the syringes, there’s lines so you can dose a half a milligram on there. And you can say, “Okay, I’m going to start there.” I can add it to my coffee or my tea. I can add it to my honey butter. I can add it to something where I… Because you’re right. Vaping is intimidating for people that have never used cannabis. They’re not going to just start vaping even though a cancer patient really may need that.
Tim Pickett: Sure.
Beverly Astin: For more immediate relief. They’re not going to be comfortable starting there. So mixing it in, half of a milliliter at a time, and then you kind of play with it. We also want to educate people. We are providing a full spectrum CBD now into all the pharmacies this month because for people who are first time users, if they take too much, they can back out of that high a little bit and get some relief from that high if they get too stony, and they’re nervous about that. They can take some of that full-spectrum CBD or CBG, and it brings them back down from that. So if you’ve taken too much THC, it’s a little bit of a rescue for you where you don’t get that paranoid, that “Oh my gosh, I’m going to die! I’m going to have a heart attack!”
Chris Holifield: Take me to the emergency room right away!
Beverly Astin: Take me to the emergency room right now!
Tim Pickett: That’s exactly what it feels like, too.
Beverly Astin: So we want to…
Tim Pickett: Remember, calm. Calm yourself down.
Chris Holifield: Calm yourself down.
Beverly Astin: Yeah. And CBN and CBG and some of those minor cannabinoids, in a full spectrum CBD, is a good rescue for that if you felt like, “Okay, I’ve crossed the line. Okay. I’m going to back it out a little bit.” That’ll give you some relief with that full-spectrum CBG with those minor cannabinoids in it. But one thing you said about… Oh, you said something that I just forgot. I was going to mention for the new users in the Utah market.
Tim Pickett: Gosh, I don’t know about your perspective of not being involved in the cannabis space before, and you have these new users who want to try it. What I was going to say is I think when you get a syringe like that, if you have 300 mg of THC in it, then you can measure, “Okay, if I put 100 mg into this recipe, and I divide it into ten servings, each serving would have 10 mg of THC.” This is something people really have a hard time with calculating how much THC is going to be in their product. And at the end of the day, it really is just you know the total that goes into the butter. You know how much butter you have. Divide the butter up before you eat it, right? You divide it up into each individual serving, and you’ve essentially made yourself some gummies, some edibles, whatever.
Beverly Astin: That’s right. And you can start slow. Just start slow because you can always see where your tolerance level is and add to that. You can always add to it. There was something I was going to add to you with the Utah market. I think, too, in the state of Utah, and I’m from the south so I can say this about the south as well, a really highly populated religious culture. And so I think it really helped, just recently, that the LDS Church came out that they are on board for people using medical cannabis. I just want to shout out to them a big thank you because I feel like the Utah market now will be a little more open minded to using medical cannabis as a treatment option for different ailments.
Beverly Astin: So I’m really happy that that happened. On the hill, it passed with a majority of the vote. People wanted cannabis in Utah, but I feel like Utah’s about half LDS, no LDS. So to have that okay to, “Okay, you know what? It’s okay to try it and to see how it works for you.” A lot of people needed that validation and that okay to, “All right, you know what? My leaders, my…”
Tim Pickett: Yeah, my community is okay with it if I do it under the rules, if I follow those. And I don’t need to use it. People don’t need to use it forever. If they have something that’s bothering them for a while, maybe it’s reasonable when you talk to your provider, maybe that’s reasonable to try.
Beverly Astin: That’s right.
Chris Holifield: Well, and I’m sure you were nervous as a processor. It’s like, “Hey, they could either make or break this program here in Utah.” If they endorse it or not, if they talk out against it, it could put this whole thing under.
Beverly Astin: It’s very true, and it just shows you, I think, that the whole world, at least our nation, is moving. It’s not going to go backwards. It’s only going to move forward. So we want to move it forward in a direction that people will use it for medicine, but I will say, I come from a family of addicts. And there was just a really great news story, and I want to shout out Wholesome and the people who did the news story in a recovery center just recently, people who are recovering from addiction. Marijuana is not a gateway drug. I’m sorry. I hate that connotation of Marijuana. Cannabis is… I think Marijuana has such a negative connotation, and I think we are trying to change that by using the word cannabis.
Beverly Astin: But I come from a family of addicts that cannabis has literally saved two of my brothers’ lives from alcoholism. So I think it was Channel 2 that just did a really great news story, and Wholesome is working with this facility that’s a recovery facility to give them… I’m not sure exactly what they’re doing to work with them, but it’s not a gateway drug. It is a rescue drug. It’s a drug that will help you to find a balance where you can live a nice, calm, anxiety-free, freeing lifestyle without heavier drugs like heroin, cocaine, alcohol. Too much alcohol, in my opinion, leads people down a path that really is, I’ve seen it over and over again, really destructive.
Beverly Astin: So cannabis is such a great alternative to alcohol. It’s such a great alternative to higher, heavier drugs that kill people, and that’s opioids included. Opioids, in my opinion, can lead you down a road that leads to death. So I’m excited about cannabis for saving lives.
Chris Holifield: What’s the best way for listeners to find out more about your products, find out more about what you got going on with Life Elevated and with Jilu and with everything going on?
Beverly Astin: Go to our Instagram. We are Jilu Premium on our Instagram, and we’re Life Elevated on our Instagram. And our website is almost done. I wish I could tell you guys to go right to our website.
Tim Pickett: Totally fine, but follow you on…
Chris Holifield: And Jilu is spelled J-I-L-U, right?
Beverly Astin: J-I-L-U.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, and I’m sure you’ll announce the website on social when you get it all up and running.
Beverly Astin: We will. We will. Our website’s been really slow. So we’re hoping to have all of our… On our Life Elevated side, you can go and see our C of As, but right now, our Jilu side isn’t totally up and going. So we’re working on getting our website up and going. But go to our Instagram, follow us, know that we are, and along with the other processors and growers, we’re doing our very best. And I can say this from everyone I’ve met in the industry that are making products, they’re really doing it with a Utah patient in mind. And yes, people are going to always chase high THC. Some people are always going to do that, and some people need that. I don’t have any judgment on that either. I think if that is saving you from using a drug that could be potentially deadly, I say “Bravo.”
Tim Pickett: Yeah, go for it. Absolutely.
Beverly Astin: Go for it. If that’s going to be your form of medicine, I say, we need to lose that judgment as well because you are never going to die from cannabis. You’re never going to overdose. You might be stoned for three days, but…
Chris Holifield: You might just need to lay down and take a nap.
Beverly Astin: You might need to lay down …
Tim Pickett: Watch Ferris Bueller or the Back to the Future series.
Beverly Astin: Yes. Yes. I have a really funny story with my nieces and nephews with trying cannabis in brownies, and they had that experience. But that’s a whole ‘nother segment.
Chris Holifield: Lasted for a couple of days, huh?
Beverly Astin: Yes.
Chris Holifield: No, I’ve had those, too. I’ve had those, too.
Beverly Astin: But I just think we do need to open our minds and put our judgments aside on why people are using cannabis and what they’re using it for and think of it in a different way and embrace it because it’s here to stay, and it is a beautiful, beautiful plant that can help a lot of people.
Tim Pickett: Way cool.
Chris Holifield: Way cool. Anything else you want to talk about, Tim? Or Beverly, anything before we wrap this episode up?
Beverly Astin: Do you think we covered everything?
Chris Holifield: I mean, I know it’s hard to cover everything in like an hour. We’ll just have to talk down the road.
Tim Pickett: I mean, down the road, we’ll bring you back because you’re going to be a brand that people really like, and all these products, I think we’re just going to have to talk about all these products again and again.
Chris Holifield: More and more products. I mean, I’m sure you got a lot of stuff coming out the line.
Beverly Astin: We’re going to do a lot of fun products. We’re going to do products that appeal to everyone, and I’ve talked mostly about our medicine products, but we just did a higher cartridge, our Acapulco Gold is our high potency.
Tim Pickett: Ah, it’s a classic.
Beverly Astin: Yes. Our Acapulco Gold.
Tim Pickett: Strain doesn’t even exist anymore that they know of, right?
Beverly Astin: Yeah. So our Acapulco Gold is always going to be in conjunction with our high potency. So our syringes, we just did… That won’t have Acapulco Gold in it, but we just started with a little bit of a one gram gloss bucket on a high potency that has the Acapulco Gold added in. So that’s excited for people who want that higher THC, and we have an Acapulco cart. So that is our highest potency. And then most of our other vape carts are anywhere between I think about in the 70 range, 70% range. So as we get going, we probably will have some higher potency stuff, too.
Chris Holifield: Would you eventually like to get a grow license?
Beverly Astin: Oh my gosh! Yes! Of course we would.
Chris Holifield: I mean, I guess that’s kind of a given.
Beverly Astin: It would be so fun. And every time I go into a pharmacy because I’m such a people lover, my husband’s like, “Oh my gosh, Beverly.” We were just on vacation. He’s like, “Do you have to get to know every single person we meet?” And the answer is yes because I love people. I can count on one hand people that I don’t like. So the pharmacy, I love being in the pharmacy with all the pharmacy owners and talking to the patients. I like that even better than the processing and making the products because I am a people lover.
Chris Holifield: So you would like to even maybe eventually have a pharmacy.
Beverly Astin: I would.
Tim Pickett: Or the 15th. Or the 15th, right?
Beverly Astin: I know! I know, we’re all going to be going for that 15th.
Tim Pickett: I know. Everybody, start your engines.
Beverly Astin: We’re all going to be trying to go for that one, but it’s exciting. And hopefully, as Utah gets really growing, we’ll have more than 15. I just feel like there’s probably going to be a need for more than 15.
Chris Holifield: Oh, absolutely.
Beverly Astin: As we get going.
Chris Holifield: I already see a need for more than 15. Really.
Beverly Astin: Yeah because look how far people have to drive.
Chris Holifield: There’s a lot of places out in the middle of nowhere that need one.
Tim Pickett: There’s a lot of places that you could have a smaller retail setting, especially.
Chris Holifield: Even Moab. Does Moab have any plans to open one, do you think?
Tim Pickett: No. You would think that the 15th, they would go to Moab.
Chris Holifield: Moab needs one. Anyway, all the cities need one.
Beverly Astin: Moab, Vernal, just a lot of those…
Tim Pickett: Yeah, Vernal’s really growing. Vernal could use one.
Chris Holifield: A few more down south even because I know St. George and Ceder City…
Tim Pickett: Well, you’d think, I mean, St. George, I would think, needs two.
Chris Holifield: At least two.
Tim Pickett: There’s going to be Justice in the south.
Beverly Astin: And we want to welcome Justice. I just met with Justice. I’m working with them to help get stuff in their pharmacies, and they’re going to be a wonderful addition to the state. They’re amazing people. They worked with Randy at the Tryke company for…
Tim Pickett: Yeah, they were close with Tryke.
Beverly Astin: Yeah. They worked closely. I think they’ve both, several of their employees that are coming here have worked for Tryke. So just they’re really knowledgeable, great people, really excited to work with them. We love working with all the pharmacies, though. I mean, and be patient with the pharmacies. I mean, they’re doing such a good job, and they’ve been patient with us. We’ve given them stuff. We’ve made mistakes. Poor Deseret. They’ve been so patient with us down in Provo on getting MJ Freeway. We can’t ever get our stuff right in MJ Freeway. Everybody’s had MJ Freeway problems, and that’s the platform that we all have to do business in with the state. So the pharmacies have been really patient.
Beverly Astin: Nothing’s been real easy so far. Everything kind of feels like this, “Oh my gosh. How are we going to do that?” So everybody’s had to make lots of apologies. I’ve had to eat crow on so many… I thought I understood something, and I’m like, I didn’t even have a clue what that was talking about. So the pharmacies have been really patient, too. They’re doing a great job. They really are.
Tim Pickett: Well, Chris…
Chris Holifield: Should we wrap this episode up?
Tim Pickett: We should wrap this episode up. You can always find us at utahmarijuana.org/podcast where all the episodes are.
Chris Holifield: Subscribe on any podcast player you listen to other podcasts in. Leave us a review on iTunes, Apple Podcast and maybe we’ll read it on a future episode.
Tim Pickett: Absolutely.
Chris Holifield: And subscribe. Yeah. I think I said that already, but we got a new episode every week. Thanks again, Beverly, for coming on the podcast.
Beverly Astin: Thank you guys so much for having me, Tim and Chris.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, absolutely.
Beverly Astin: I really appreciate it.
Chris Holifield: We’ll bring you back on.
Beverly Astin: Awesome!
Tim Pickett: All right. Everybody, stay safe out there.
Chris Holifield: Awesome.
Beverly Astin: Thanks!
Tim and Chris speak with an old friend of Chris’s, a woman named Elikqitie. She didn’t come to cannabis until later in life – she started using in her thirties. That was before Medical Cannabis was legal in Utah.
Many of her past experiences were casual experiences. [03:50] Maybe she and her husband met up with strangers on a trail, found they had cannabis in common, and eventually became good friends. Tim and Chris’s response to that line of thought implied that such experiences are pretty common in the cannabis community. [06:45]
Elikqitie got her Medical Cannabis card a few months ago. [07:21] She now uses Medical Cannabis regularly to help with celiac disease, chronic pain, sleep issues, anxiety, and childhood trauma. Like so many others, she has discovered that cannabis helps her sleep without creating the hangover effect.
On her first visit to a pharmacy, Elikqitie met up with a pharmacist who used to work at another establishment she frequents. [11:34] The pharmacist already knew Elikqitie’s medical history, making it easier for her to recommend product, delivery method, and dosage. Elikqitie and her pharmacist now have her dialed in to exactly what she needs.
Elikqitie uses multiple forms including cubes, drops, and a spray. [18:42] She micro-doses during the day and takes a therapeutic dose at night. Tim asked if she had ever considered vaping. [26:25] She has, but decided it wasn’t right for her.
The conversation wrapped up with an in-depth discussion of making one’s own edibles at home. [32:02] Elikqitie learned how to do it from a book. The information is out there if anyone wants to learn about it. Meanwhile, Elikqitie has two podcasts of her own. If you are interested in hearing them, you can catch their details at the end of this episode.
Chris Holifield: Let’s welcome everybody out today to episode 55 of Utah in the Weeds. My name is Chris Holifield.
TIm Pickett: And I’m Tim Pickett, medical provider in the cannabis space, somewhat of a medical expert so to speak, I guess Chris. Excited for today’s interview with Elikqitie. I love that name.
Chris Holifield: This is a great one. This is actually an older friend of mine, somebody I’ve met over the years through podcasting. It was nice to bring her on the podcast and find out her story of using cannabis from everything from some of her PTSD issues, to sleeping at night. It was just a fun story to share on the podcast here.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I think it’s interesting when you are friends with somebody and communicate with somebody for years really, and then you find out, “Oh wow, they’re involved in cannabis, in medical cannabis like I am, or as a patient.” It’s out there, people are using it. They’re finding that it’s helping them. Her story is really good. We talk a lot about lower dosing, edibles, oral methods, not a ton of smoking flower and dab rigs. This is a good conversation for people to listen to who are just interested in this experience from a normal persons perspective, right?
Chris Holifield: Yeah, just everyday use so you don’t have to get completely… a lot of times people think, “Oh, I got to get completely stoned out of my mind with cannabis,” and it’s like, “No, you can take very low doses here and it can help you sleep at night. It can help you deal with some of your stuff going on during the day.”
TIm Pickett: Yeah, absolutely. Yesterday, also I wanted to mention we were at the 420 event with the Cannafest at Dragonfly, that was super fun.
Chris Holifield: Oh man, I was excited just because A, we can have a 420 festival here in Utah, who would have thought? And then just to be out and about. I haven’t got out and about a lot over the last year so it was nice to get out and network a little bit.
TIm Pickett: Yeah, absolutely. I’m excited for the events coming up. We talked to a bunch of different people about events that we can go out back into the world.
Chris Holifield: The world is opening up Tim.
TIm Pickett: Yep. This is a good interview. I guess the only other housekeeping item Chris, is just to remind everybody starting in May, Utah Therapeutic Health Center will have a clinic open in Provo, in the same building as the Deseret Wellness pharmacy down there on Draper. That’s the street name, but it is in Provo. Check us out on utahmarijuana.org/podcasts, with all of the podcasts. I know I checked this morning, they’re all up and this one will be there too.
Chris Holifield: Didn’t we put up some of the videos on YouTube as well? Can people go check those out?
TIm Pickett: Oh yeah. There’s an entire listing of all the podcasts on YouTube. You go to Discover Marijuana, that’s the channel. The channel again, Discover Marijuana on YouTube, there’s all of the podcast episodes are there and some video. We’re going to start doing some more video stuff with the podcast so it’ll all be there. There’s also a ton of other videos there if you want to check them out, a lot of education content about cannabis. It’s a good place to get info.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, go there, subscribe there as well. Make sure you’re subscribed to this podcast in whatever podcast app you listen to podcasts in. Let’s get into that conversation with Elikqitie Tim. Here we go.
Let’s talk about cannabis. I want to dig deep with you here Elikqitie, I want to find out, when’s the first time you ever used cannabis? Can we go there?
Elikqitie: Absolutely. The funny thing is that in high school many, many, many, many moons ago for me, I was what you would call mall rat. I was a headbanger, heavy metal. We would just go to the mall on the weekend, me and like 15 of my closest friends and just hang out at the mall and then we’d usually end up at someone’s house. People would be smoking pot. Actually it was so funny because when I was a teenager I never smoked pot. I was around people who did it and I didn’t care, but I was never into it, smoking weed when I was a teenager. I never did it in college either. Then when I married my first husband, we started going to these, it was just adult parties and that’s actually when I started smoking pot when I was in my 30’s.
Chris Holifield: Really? Talk about these adult parties…[crosstalk 00:04:40]
TIm Pickett: You were kind of later. I guess it depends on your definition of adult.
Elikqitie: Adult parties as in parties with no kids there.
TIm Pickett: Okay.
Elikqitie: It wasn’t an adult swinger party. Not that one.
Chris Holifield: That’s what I imagined. Grown up people having a reasonably good time, and there’s cannabis at the party.
Elikqitie: Yeah, and everybody was adults-adults. Nobody was a teenager there. It was more of like we were sitting around the campfire making s’mores and then my friend Sue’s who we have our parties in her backyard in Florida, and she had this amazing backyard that backed up right against the lake. On her back porch she would have a band and then we would just sit there and just pass a joint and have a good time, eat and just enjoy our private little party with our friends. It was fun. Then we had drum circle and all sorts of cool stuff.
TIm Pickett: Well then the party gets really exciting.
Chris Holifield: Well with the music, yeah.
TIm Pickett: With the music, and the vibe. The whole everybody’s a little more relaxed. Conversation gets good.
Chris Holifield: Did you have a good experience your first time? I know a lot of people didn’t have a good experience their first couple of times.
Elikqitie: Yeah, I don’t think I’ve ever had a bad experience with marijuana.
Chris Holifield: Really?
Elikqitie: Yeah. I never, ever, ever have. I always… it’s so funny because most of my experience with cannabis and smoking before it was legal in Utah were just my friends had it and they offered it to me. Most of my cannabis use I have not even purchased in my life. It’s mostly been free cannabis from friends which is perfectly fine. It’s so funny because I’ll just start talking to people and they’re like, “Hey, do you smoke?” And I’m like, “Well, not on a regular basis but sure if you have one…” I don’t know. Two months ago we took a road trip, oh my gosh I can’t remember where we took a road trip to. Anyway, we walked to a springs and we were hiking back and these two women that were at the springs, we were hiking back together, we didn’t know them. We just started up a conversation and she’s like, “Hey, you want a hit?” And I’m like, “Sure.” For me it’s not a thing I really would seek out seek out, but if it the opportunity arises and I’m not driving anywhere and I can be responsible then I’m like, “Sure, why not?”
Chris Holifield: It’s amazing how marijuana will bring people together. It’s like…[crosstalk 00:06:51]
Elikqitie: It’s like food.
Chris Holifield: … you can be completely opposites but there’s that one thing, all of the sudden you have a best friend. It’s weird how it works out that way. I’ve been in similar situations where you run into somebody on a hiking trail or you’re out and about camping, whatever.
TIm Pickett: Or a concert.
Chris Holifield: A concert, exactly.
TIm Pickett: Something like that.
Chris Holifield: And all of the sudden you’re just like… by the end of the night you’ve got phone numbers, you know what I mean?
TIm Pickett: You’ve learned about their history.
Elikqitie: You’re following them on Instagram.
Chris Holifield: Fast forward a little bit to medical, how long ago did you get your medical card? Because you got your medical card, right?
Elikqitie: Yes, I have my medical card, I got it about two months ago now and I’m actually coming up on my 90 day thing so I need to get an appointment to renew.
TIm Pickett: We sent you an email, and a text.
Elikqitie: You probably have and I have 700 emails in my inbox right now. Yeah, there was several things that led me to get a medical marijuana card. One was that I have Celiac Disease so Celiac, if you’re not familiar with it, you can’t eat gluten but it’s not just not eating gluten. You get joint pain, you get horribly ill if you do eat gluten for days and days and days. And then it compounds on each other. If you accidentally get gluten twice in the same month, it’s not like it goes away and then it resets back to zero, it’s cumulative.
It’s not just gluten for me, it’s corn bothers my joints and a few other different things like nightshade plants. I’m a writer for a living so it really sucks when I have to type all day and my hands hurt really bad. I’ve been dealing with chronic pain for a while, used to have fibromyalgia and then also more recently I found out that I was a victim of sexual abuse as a child because it’s like when your mind suppresses it and you don’t know for the longest time. I always had a feeling, I was always very weary of my mom and I never knew why until I started having these memories come back. I was sexually abused by my mother. When I started having these memories came back, I had night terrors. I would just sit and shake for an hour. It was really bad.
I’ve been going to psychologist and then I also have a somatic healer that I’m using right now. The other part of having all that stuff come back is even though I’m processing going through all that, the bad negative memories and things that are associated with that, you have a ton of anxiety. Just daily during the day and then certain things trigger you and you don’t know why. The other really bad part of that is I just basically wouldn’t sleep at night so I would literally go to bed at 10:30, 11:00 and if I was lucky I would sleep until 2:00 in the morning and if I was really lucky I’d sleep until 3:30. Sometimes I would go to bed at 10:30 and wake up at midnight and be awake for four or five hours and then go back to bed at 5:00 and then having to wake up at 7:00.
That chronic loss of sleep was really, really, really wearing on me and it’s literally been three years since I probably got any decent sleep. One of my girlfriends was telling me that she also has anxiety and a couple other different things too and she had got her medical cannabis card and she’s like, “Elikqitie, you’ve got to try this. It’s amazing. I sleep like a baby. I feel so much better during the day.” I’m not a big drug use person, I was taking one type of sleep medication and I tried two or three others but nothing really would work because I would take it and then I’d wake up in the morning and I’d feel really like I was drinking all night, but I wasn’t drinking all night and having that much fun so it kind of sucked.
Chris Holifield: It’s like you had a hangover but you didn’t know why. You’re like, “Why do I feel this way?”
Elikqitie: Yeah, I’m like, “If I’m going to feel this way I need to go out and party and have fun.” But the partying and having fun was missing so I didn’t really want to feel that way in the morning. And the sleep medication really doesn’t make you really sleep, it just drugs you to sleep and you don’t get any good quality sleep. She was telling me about her medical card and then she had suggested Utah Therapeutic Center and she’s like, “This is where I got my card, these people were great.” I’m like, “All right, let me try it out, what the heck.” I was literally at the end of my rope, I didn’t know what else to do.
I had tried everything. I used to have a health food store so I’m really knowledgeable in supplements and herbs and everything. I called you guys up and I went to the Salt Lake office and I went and saw, I can’t remember the guys’ name that I had. But any who it was really great because I went in, they talked to me and it’s an application process so just because you go, it doesn’t mean you get approved. I had tried so many other different things to control my chronic pain, my sleeplessness, anxiety and nothing was really working. I got my cannabis card approved and I went and the great thing about it is at Deseret I know all the pharmacies have pharmacists on staff, but I went to the pharmacist at Deseret and it was really great because I knew this whole medical clinical process, so I didn’t know what strains to use or how much to use. It was really great to go in and ask the pharmacist all these questions.
I told her I’m like, “Look, my number one thing is I need to sleep. I’m not getting any sleep right now, what do you recommend?” She recommended something. I think it had… now that the Park City one is open, because I’m in Park City, that’s great because actually Karen Christa who is the pharmacist there, I know her personally because she used to work at Alpine Apothecary and she knows my medical history too which is really great. We have now dialed it down to I got exactly what I need and actually got five nights of sleep in a row. That’s the first time I’ve done that in like four years and that’s only because I’ve had the medical cannabis. I can’t tell you how life changing that is to go from getting 13 hours of sleep a week to…[crosstalk 00:12:14]
Chris Holifield: 13 a day, right?
Elikqitie: To like 60 hours a week. Yeah, I feel like a whole new person.
TIm Pickett: I hear you, especially when you’re dealing with some of the autoimmune stuff that you deal with, when you’re not getting the sleep that you need your body can’t heal. I know that first hand myself. When I wasn’t getting sleep at night either, I was a wreck, I wasn’t functioning during the day. It was tearing down my immune system, everything. Headaches.
Elikqitie: Yeah. The other thing that’s really great about it too, is when I take the Dragonfly cubes at night to sleep, it also helps with anxiety so if I do wake up at night when I’m sleeping, I don’t feel really anxious and I don’t have a lot of the bad nightmares that I used to have as well. That’s really helpful too because then when I wake up in the morning I feel more relaxed, I feel like I got way better quality sleep then if I don’t take it.
TIm Pickett: What’s the dose you take?
Elikqitie: I take a 10 milligram of the Dragonfly at night, yeah.
TIm Pickett: 10 milligram.
Elikqitie: The cubes are in 20 so I just diagonal cut it in half.
TIm Pickett: Were you surprised that you dreamed less?
Elikqitie: I had heard that from other people so since I haven’t had night terrors in a while which is completely different from regular nightmares. If you haven’t had night terrors, be very glad that you haven’t because they’re extremely scary. I’m always, when I go into things because I know everybody is so different and especially with the PTSD I have from childhood trauma and everything, PTSD will literally physically rewire your brain. I wasn’t sure what kind of reaction I would have because my brain rewiring is going to be different than somebody else’s brain rewiring from PTSD.
TIm Pickett: Yeah, it’s one of the most…[crosstalk 00:13:48]
Chris Holifield: We talked about that.
TIm Pickett: It’s one of the most common things that people report is less dreams with cannabis. It helps people sleep, that’s another… it’s gold but it tends to help people at certain doses. Like you said, you find this 10 milligrams kind of works out which seems to be a really great spot for sleep because you don’t get a ton of that psychoactivity yet. Your brains not trying to paint a picture.
Elikqitie: Right and I like it too because not only do I get better quality sleep, I feel much more refreshed when I wake up in the morning and I don’t feel like… before if I would sleep and I’d have a nightmare, or even if I didn’t know if I had a nightmare or my brains processing something, I would still have that anxiety buzz in the morning and I don’t get that anymore. Which is really great. I wake up in the morning and I feel happy instead of waking up in the morning and trying to roll out of bed because I feel exhausted because I’m so anxious already and it’s first thing in the morning which is not a good way to start your day.
TIm Pickett: You said you go to Deseret Wellness out in Park City?
Elikqitie: Yeah.
TIm Pickett: I haven’t been out there yet, how is the pharmacy out there?
Elikqitie: It’s awesome.
TIm Pickett: Is it pretty good?
Elikqitie: Yeah, it looks just like the one in Bountiful because the first time I went, the Park City one wasn’t open yet so I went out to the one in Bountiful…[crosstalk 00:15:02]
TIm Pickett: Provo.
Elikqitie: Provo, yes.
TIm Pickett: Provo, right?
Elikqitie: Provo, yep. It’s just basically looks exactly the same except it’s a little bit smaller.
Chris Holifield: It’s a pretty good location, although it’s in the basement it’s still a pretty good location.
TIm Pickett: It’s in the basement.
Chris Holifield: It’s in the basement but it is…[crosstalk 00:15:19]
TIm Pickett: Got to knock on the door three times and say a password.
Chris Holifield: Tell them the frog, the purple frog.
Elikqitie: Yep. No, it actually is in a great location because it’s in between new Park — if you know Park City anyway — it’s in between the newer area of Park City and the historic area of Park City. It’s actually right next door to my favorite clothing shop which is kind of dangerous for me. But yeah no, it’s in a great location and I love the fact that you can go in and always talk to the pharmacist no matter what because I went in and when I had to change my dosage, I talked to Karen and it’s nice that you have somebody there that knows what… they can direct you in a direction so you’re not just wildly guessing because even though you do have to… there is always some guess work. Even if you go to a medical doctor and you get a prescription, there’s always guesswork because they never know how that prescriptions going to interact in your body.
I love that I can go and get information from a knowledgeable pharmacist and Karen isn’t only knowledgeable about cannabis, she’s also extremely knowledgeable about a lot of different supplements and how they interact and also a lot of prescription because she’s a regular pharmacist as well. One of the things that she told me I was doing wrong, I didn’t realize was taking 5HTP at night and she said that can wake you up so I had to switch that to the morning. That was probably part of why I wasn’t sleeping too good either. It’s been great and I’m so glad I’m getting sleep.
TIm Pickett: Interesting, 5HTP will wake you up, interesting. Years ago I took that stuff, I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that.
Elikqitie: I didn’t know that either because I was taking it at night.
TIm Pickett: How’s the GI stuff? Do you feel like that’s better?
Elikqitie: Yeah. I do definitely notice I’m getting the munchies a little bit more but I notice that my digestive system, because when you have any autoimmune disease but especially with Celiac Disease, little things can really set you off and sometimes you don’t even know what it is and I’m really careful with my diet. I notice my stomach definitely doesn’t bother me hardly at all anymore.
TIm Pickett: That’s pretty interesting, like we were talking earlier Chris about the histamine release and the depression of histamine release with cannabis use, and with autoimmune disorders and the GI system, and it just… gosh it has so many uses.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Elikqitie: Yeah actually one of the things I was really glad that they had at the Park City location, which they may have it at Provo now, but there’s one strain that’s called Limone, L-I-M-O-N-E.
TIm Pickett: Oh terpene, yeah.
Chris Holifield: Terpene, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Elikqitie: That’s actually the two main functions of that one is anti-inflammatory and the anti-depressant because one of the things that you also get with Celiac Disease or any autoimmune because any kind of gut disorder can cause depression. If you have a mental illness, it’ll make it worse. It won’t necessarily be the cause of your mental illness but if you have gut imbalances or problems with your gut it can make all that stuff worse. My depression has been really, really, really bad the past three or four months but then I started taking Limone during the day and I definitely notice a difference. It definitely uplifts my mood and helps me get out of that depression fog.
Chris Holifield: That’s good to know.
TIm Pickett: It is, the side effects of cannabis are helping other conditions than what you are normally using it for.
Chris Holifield: It doesn’t give you that stoned feeling probably either, right?
Elikqitie: I’m only taking like two drops, two or three drops of Limone. I do get a little bit tired when it first kicks in.
TIm Pickett: But very micro dosed of it.
Elikqitie: It’s not like… I just drink a cup of tea and I’m fine. It’s not like I’m wanting to go to bed or anything.
TIm Pickett: Yeah, so you’re kind of micro dosing during the day and then using a therapeutic dose at night.
Elikqitie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
TIm Pickett: You’re the perfect patient. You listen to the providers, you talk to the pharmacist, you’re into the discussion of what to try, how to try it. You’re using it really as it’s supposed to be used as far as the Utah system goes. And yet, you’ve allowed yourself to have these social experiences where it’s adult use too, which is reasonably safe. We have a lot of states around us, we’re surrounded by them that allow that. It’s the ideal situation of what we want to see.
Chris Holifield: I don’t know how much you hear Elikqitie, but I’m curious, was there any push back in Park City? It seems like Park City’s a pretty liberal city. They were probably pretty excited to get a pharmacy in there, a dispensary. I was just kind of curious what the community was like.
Elikqitie: I don’t know about anybody else, I was excited. Because of COVID I haven’t been out and about too much lately, I haven’t heard anybody say anything negative about it but again, I haven’t been talking to a lot of people in Park City. A lot of my content clients are outside of Park City amazingly enough, but yeah, I was super excited when I found out that they were coming to Park City. I’m like, “Yes, now I don’t have to drive to Provo,” which I would still drive to Provo anyway to get my stuff.
Chris Holifield: Who was it that we were talking to, or maybe it wasn’t with you Tim. Somebody was telling me that Summit County had the highest voter turnout for Prop 2 or something like that?
Elikqitie: That doesn’t surprise me.
Chris Holifield: They had the highest voter turnout and they have one of the lowest county counts for medical cards currently which was interesting.
TIm Pickett: That’s why I was curious…[crosstalk 00:20:27]
Elikqitie: Welcome to Park City.
Chris Holifield: They can’t figure it out, they vote to legalize it but then they won’t get a card.
TIm Pickett: That’s what I was curious about, they seem like a pretty liberal place.
Elikqitie: That’s the only reason why I moved to Utah. If there wasn’t Park City or Sugarhouse available I probably would have never moved to Utah because I’m a Philly girl so I’m definitely not on the conservative side for sure.
It’s funny because I think… I know a lot of people my age in Park City have little little kids, I don’t have little kids, I have a 21 year old. Well two 21 year olds and two 25 year olds, but our 25 year olds are out of the house. I don’t know, I’m guessing this is just off the top of my head, that people wanted to have access to it but then not everybody’s going to use it. One of the big things in Park City is there’s a lot of teenagers and kids who are in, like my son is in the winter sports, if you’re into winter sports and you’re on the team, you can’t… there’s no way you can do cannabis. I don’t even think medically.
TIm Pickett: Drug testing.
Elikqitie: Yeah, they do drug testing all the time on the kids. You can’t use it. I don’t know because now it’s legal so I don’t know if they would let them or not. That’s kind of weird. I would expect Summit County to vote yes for Prop 2 but I’m surprised that not that many people got cards.
Chris Holifield: Our only thought was just because they haven’t had any place to purchase out there, because they didn’t want to drive into Salt Lake was my only thought.
TIm Pickett: That’s kind of my thought too. That or…
Chris Holifield: Maybe they’re just all using it, they don’t need a card.
TIm Pickett: But yet they’re using it and they’re like…[crosstalk 00:21:56]
Chris Holifield: No it’s great. If I need to go down there, I’ll get a card so I can go buy more. I don’t know. Different counties have different personalities certainly. Summit County, they’re in their own world. Maybe not a lot of people know that it’s there because while the dispensaries in a really great location, or the pharmacy, it’s not easy to see.
TIm Pickett: Do we know the address… you probably don’t know the address of the top of your head.
Chris Holifield: It’s in Kimball Junction.
Elikqitie: Yeah, it’s right on…
Chris Holifield: Just for people…
Speaker 4: I can look it up.
Chris Holifield: It’s all good. We can even add it later. I was just curious.
Elikqitie: If you know where… if you’re going down I think it’s near the intersection of 224 and 248 in Park City. If you’re going down like you’re driving into historic Park City, but then you make a left at the intersection of 224 and 248 like you’re going towards Park City High School. It’s going to be before you get to Park City High School on the right. It’s in a little shopping center with Whimsy Clothing and then there’s a lighting store in there. It’s literally two, a minute and a half from the recycling center in Park City.
Chris Holifield: I have it pulled up here. The address is 1351 Kearns Boulevard, Suite 110-B, Park City. Their number 435-252-1052. That’s one thing I want to do better Tim is connecting patients with these places because I’m surprised how many people don’t even know about all these places yet or even know how to get connected. The only place that I’ve seen is that if you get your hands on a copy of that Faces Magazine that Salt Lake City put together, they have all of them in the back I think.
TIm Pickett: Yep, they have all of the dispensaries, and they have a bunch of listings of Q and P’s from the Utah Patients Coalition, but they have all of the dispensaries. We also have a dispensary page on our website, Utahmarijuana.org.
Chris Holifield: That’s good to know.
TIm Pickett: I think it’s Utahmarijuana.org/dispensary. We have them all listed, all their addresses, links to their sites where you can go and register. But it’s important to keep up on this because there’s going to be a new one in Springfield, there’s going to be a new one in Payson.
Chris Holifield: A new one in West Jordan.
TIm Pickett: West Jordan, yes. South, 103rd south is going to open. St. George will open. Keeping up on where these are going to be, there might be one much closer to your house then you realize.
Elikqitie: Yeah, the other thing too is you can come out, I know a lot of people like to come out to Park City to do stuff because there’s lots of fun stuff to do in Park City. You can just come out, hit the dispensary, go to lunch and go skiing or whatever.
TIm Pickett: It’s right there.
Chris Holifield: Grab some gelatinous cubes and then go hit the slopes with your buddy.
Elikqitie: Chat with Karen for a while.
Chris Holifield: Karen, yeah.
Elikqitie: And the great thing is Sunday they’re almost completely empty because not a lot of people know that that pharmacy is open on Sunday because the other ones aren’t. I think Park City is the only pharmacy that I know of that’s open on Sunday.
TIm Pickett: That’s good to know.
Chris Holifield: That’s good to know too.
Elikqitie: Yeah, definitely hit up some lunch and cannabis on Sunday.
TIm Pickett: Have you run into any problems, one thing we noticed chatting with people here Elikqitie is availability. You’re pretty low, I would consider you a low tolerance, you have a very low tolerance so you don’t need to consume very much. Have you run into any availability problems? Being out of stock of anything you’re used to purchasing?
Elikqitie: No the only thing, I wanted to try the Limone for my depression the first time I came in, and they didn’t have it in the Provo. Other than that, I haven’t experienced any. They were saying, “Oh you can get two ounces per day,” or something like that. I got two ounces and I was like, “Whoa, there’s no way I’m going to use this much in a day.” Everybody’s different right? My daughter who’s 21, she has this weird thing where she has a very, very high tolerance to any kind of medication. They were trying to put her to sleep to do hand surgery and they had to use four times the normal amount of anesthetizing drugs to get her under. For her, she could probably try two ounces in an hour and it wouldn’t effect her, for me I would be dead asleep.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, everybody’s so different. Have you tried any… are you using all oral? All the stuff you can take by mouth?
Elikqitie: Yeah, I’m using the Limone drops in the morning. I’m also at night when I take the Dragonfly fruit, whatever it is…
TIm Pickett: The little cubes, yeah.
Elikqitie: The cubes, yeah, I also take it with 25 milligrams of CBD because it can make me a little bit anxious a little bit sometimes. If I take it with the 25 milliliters, excuse me, of CBD then it helps. That really works really well. I’m sorry, what was the question?
Chris Holifield: Yeah, you’re blending them together. I was asking whether or not you’ve experienced with any inhaled methods, but you don’t need to. If you plan it out.
Elikqitie: I actually was thinking about doing vaping but I know vaping causes… you can get metal particles in your lungs and different things like that. With my autoimmune condition, I just don’t want to chance…[crosstalk 00:26:46]
Chris Holifield: Metal particles? What?
TIm Pickett: There are going to be things in your lungs that you didn’t want in there…[crosstalk 00:26:55]
Chris Holifield: I guess any time you inhale.
TIm Pickett: Any time you inhale a product and it’s atomized and it’s heated up by a metal coil and a little battery, you’re probably going to get chemicals and particles that you didn’t expect. Are they safe for most people? Yes. Are they safe for everybody? I guess I would say we don’t know.
Elikqitie: Yeah, that’s the thing is I know weird things set off my system so I’d rather go the safe route and be smart with it then try to do something new that I haven’t tried yet.
TIm Pickett: And if it works, it works. The drops are long acting, right? You don’t have to take them all the time.
Elikqitie: Right. Actually, the other thing I take I completely forgot is the Boojum spray. I take the cubes…[crosstalk 00:27:32]
Chris Holifield: The little white one?
Elikqitie: Yeah.
TIm Pickett: You spray it in your mouth, it’s like 2.5 milligrams per spray. Perfect dose.
Elikqitie: Yeah, it’s awesome because I take the cubes two hours before I go to bed and then I do two sprays of the Boojum spray a half an hour before I go to bed. That gets me to sleep and then the cubes keep me asleep. It’s perfect.
TIm Pickett: For anybody listening out here, break this down. Here is a patient with some anxiety, some sleep disorder, right?
Chris Holifield: Some PTSD.
Tim Pickett: Some PTSD, you’ve got a GI issue, you’ve got some chronic pain. You’re taking a tincture, 10 milligrams at night therapeutic dose of THC with 25 milligrams of CBD. You’re getting at least two to one ratio, perfect ratio to decrease the anxiety. That’s what everybody teaches, this is science. You sleep better with no anxiety, you wake up refreshed. During the day you microdose which stimulates the endo cannabinoid system to heal yourself. The terpene you’re using Limone in that tincture is perfect for a blue mood and increasing your mood. Helps you with that almost motivation, kind of. This is ideal. This is how the plant is, on the science side, this is how the plant is supposed to be used, from the strictly medical side. That’s what I’m hearing.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
TIm Pickett: I’m just excited that people are doing it. Is it common to use? I know you’re really involved in the Celiac community, gluten free community. Is marijuana cannabis pretty common to use? Or there’s probably not a lot of talk.
Elikqitie: I actually haven’t heard of a lot of other people using it for Celiac disease although I’ve become quite a cannabis pusher since I started using it. It’s amazing how well it makes you feel without having a lot of really bad side effects. For me, I’m sensitive to caffeine, I’m sensitive to medications and chemicals so I’m really careful about what I do just because I don’t want to overdo it and just crash during the day. But I love the fact that I can take it and I don’t have a lot of horrible side effects, but that I still feel really good.
I haven’t heard a lot of people from the Celiac community taking it for Celiac Disease although the Limone is definitely something if you have an autoimmune disease and you can try it, I would definitely recommend trying it because it’s made a huge difference for me. Another thing that I take too, which is also an anti-inflammatory is called Naltrexone and it’s a compounded anti-inflammatory that is good for any kind of autoimmune condition. I may be able to get off of that with the cannabis, because the one person I saw at the clinic in Salt Lake, she had gotten off of her Naltrexone because she had chronic pain with cannabis.
I do notice I don’t have to take it everyday where before I used to have to take it everyday, so I feel like if I start using the cannabis, the longer I use it and the more it’s in my system, then I won’t have to take the Naltrexone in addition to the cannabis.
TIm Pickett: We’re de-prescribing Chris, this is what we’re doing. We’re de-prescribing. Is this huge? Yeah, this is going to be the movement that is next. Cannabis is really just a tool for the movement but it’s a gateway drug off. It’s an exit drug and we’re using it to de-prescribe other medications that people are using that they might be helping them but they’re giving them bad side effects and long term side effects.
Elikqitie: The Naltrexone actually doesn’t give me a lot of bad side effects, but I feel like the less things I can take, the better. One of the things with any autoimmune thing is it’s kind of like your immune systems always running on a treadmill. The more it’s inflamed, the more it stays inflamed and then it’s always on that… your immune systems on the fight or flight so it takes a long time to get your immune system back to “normal levels”. My immune systems always inflamed so I know I’m not going to get off Naltrexone next week. I may get off of it in three or four months, but if I can get off of it, and just take the cannabis that would be ideal.
Chris Holifield: What about your family and friends, are they pretty supportive of you using cannabis?
Elikqitie: Actually, yeah.
Chris Holifield: Or is this one of those things you just don’t talk about a whole lot?
Elikqitie: Oh no, everybody knows. I am not a person to be like, “I’m doing this cannabis thing.” I tell people straight up, “I’m not sleeping, this is what’s happening so I’m taking cannabis and it’s making me feel so much better.”
It’s funny because I actually did some experimenting with edibles, I found this great edibles book in the City Creek Mall in the, oh my gosh, this note paper shop or something. I walked in just to look around and they had this amazing edibles book which I should have brought and I completely forgot. Any who I was experimenting with some edibles and making my own at home. I wrapped it up and I put it in the fridge and I labeled it happy brownies and I just told my kids, I’m like, “Look, don’t eat these, these are moms brownies.”
They all know and I’m really upfront with my kids. I tell them, “This is why I’m doing it,” and whatever and so everybody is fine with it. Nobody else in my household would probably do it because it’s not for them, but for me it works really, really well. That’s the thing, you have to be comfortable doing it, and it has to be something that works for you with anything that you try. If it’s not, just don’t do it. For me it’s worked out really well. I had a feeling it would work out really well because I do much better with natural supplements than I do with any type of prescriptions.
Chris Holifield: How did you figure out how to make edibles?
TIm Pickett: From the book.
Elikqitie: From the book, yeah.
Chris Holifield: Is it a recipe book?
Elikqitie: Yeah. It’s literally a recipe book. I wish I brought it. It’s literally a recipe book, you open it up and it teaches you how to make canna butter, canna-honey. Canna-coconut oil and then you use those things in with the regular recipes to make other things. The one thing I have an issue with is because I have Celiac Disease I can’t eat gluten so anything that requires flour I have to substitute and figure out what works. There’s always a work around so it just takes a few more steps for me.
Chris Holifield: Back in the day like 20 years ago we would have to try to figure out how to make edibles, I think the only thing was the Anarchist Cookbook or something like that.
TIm Pickett: Now you can go online, you can have the recipe…[crosstalk 00:33:51]
Chris Holifield: To try to figure out how to make edibles. This is way before internet days.
TIm Pickett: Yeah the Anarchist Cookbook. Very cool, very cool. There’s a lot of people that are making their own edibles now. We’ve talked about it before on this show too, and it’s a really good way to know what’s in your product. If you’re concerned at all of what’s in the products that you buy. Even at the pharmacies where they’re tested, you want a pure product, just buy some flower, make your own edibles.
Elikqitie: Yeah, and it doesn’t even have to be pure. For me, the first gelatin cube I took for sleep had corn in it, it had corn syrup but it was a really tiny amount I was taking, and corn syrup is one of the things that really inflames my hand joints. I was like, “It’s a little bit, its probably not going to bother me.” A week in, just from taking it everyday, these tiny little cubes were literally insanely small. That’s when I switched to the Dragonfly because it’s gelatin based and not corn syrup based. For me, because I have so many food issues, making my own edibles is an easy way for me to know exactly what’s in it and I know it’s not going to bother me.
The other thing that I found with edibles, the trick to making edibles… can I say the trick to making edibles?
TIm Pickett: Yeah, sure.
Elikqitie: Is if you’re using flower, you have to put it in the oven for 250, or 265 for two hours to activate the THC. I didn’t know this the first time.
Chris Holifield: Oh to de carb it.
TIm Pickett: You got to de carb it. Yep.
Elikqitie: Yep, and so I did that the second time I made the edibles and my husband comes home, he’s like “Why does our house smell like pot?” I’m like, “Doesn’t it smell lovely?” And he’s like, “No.” He’s not a cannabis fan.
Chris Holifield: It’s always amazing to me that there’s people out there that…[crosstalk 00:35:37]
TIm Pickett: That don’t like the smell.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, how do you not like this?
Elikqitie: The thing is, for him he doesn’t like the smell, and he doesn’t like the way any psychotropics make his head feel. For him, he doesn’t even drink. Everybody thinks he’s Mormon because he doesn’t drink. It’s like, “No, he just doesn’t drink.”
Chris Holifield: Wow, doesn’t drink nothing.
Elikqitie: He’s the only non-Mormon in Utah that doesn’t drink.
Chris Holifield: That’s respect there. Respect.
TIm Pickett: Yeah, do you know how much… is there some sort of calculator that you use to try to figure out how many milligrams of THC is in each brownie? Or is in each dose?
Elikqitie: Yeah, so in the edibles book I use they say to make sure to weigh out everything. I got a scale, just a regular food scale on Amazon that goes between grams and ounces and I use metric because I used to teach science. I just put it on the grams and then you just measure everything out and then that way, if you measure it, it’s pretty good. Obviously everything’s going to vary a little bit but when you measure it you have that accuracy of knowing exactly how much product is in your edible and then you cut it up into 20 even pieces or whatever. So you know how many grams is in your total whatever you make and then however many pieces… say there’s 100…[crosstalk 00:36:50]
TIm Pickett: Yeah, say there’s 100 milligrams of THC in your whole batch, right.
Elikqitie: And you cut it into 20, then you know each one has five. Even in the book, the edibles book, they talk about having cannabis parties and making sure your friends know which things on your food table have cannabis in them. And to keep CBD on hand in case anybody gets a little anxious.
Chris Holifield: Did you ever see, maybe we talked about this on the podcast, that episode of That 70’s Show when they made pot brownies, sold them at a yard sale but the parents didn’t know and somehow they got ahold of them. They didn’t realize they were eating pot brownies or something, go watch an episode of That 70’s Show. One of the best shows ever. One of the best shows.
TIm Pickett: One of the best episodes.
Chris Holifield: The whole show is great. I love That 70’s Show.
Elikqitie: Yeah, that’s a good show.
TIm Pickett: There are some calculators online that will tell you how many grams your flower you weigh, what percentage of THC the flower is, and then how many cups or a quarter cup of oil and it’ll tell you how much is in that oil too. It can get really dialed in within reason, you’re going to be a little off probably always, especially the first few times.
Chris Holifield: Well and a lot of times it’s like how do you really know it’s really evenly distributed amongst all the brownies too.
TIm Pickett: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Because maybe the squares over on the left side…[crosstalk 00:38:13]
TIm Pickett: They’re a little higher.
Chris Holifield: And I’m sure the same thing happens when you buy anything even.
TIm Pickett: Right, is it all mixed in all the way? I’m sure they try to get it very stable across every dose. But the other thing about cannabis is it absorbs a little differently depending on what you eat too. For you, maybe somebody who watches their diet, it might be a little more consistent. But for somebody like me, I eat widely different, from mac and cheese to salads, you know? Depending on what we’ve got going on. It might absorb, you might get 30% absorption, you might get 70% absorption depending on the day. The more consistent you can be, I guess the better the effects.
Elikqitie: Yeah, I notice when I take the gelatin at night, it’s usually 90 minutes and I know when it hits me because I all the sudden start feeling really tired. I’ll sit on my couch and be like, “Oh, I need to go to sleep.” But yeah, and then also it’s different if you take the gelatin, because you always want to eat some food when you take the gelatin at night, the gelatin cubes, but most the time I do intermittent fasting so I won’t eat between 8:00 and 8:00. But then every once in a while I’ll get really hungry and I’ll eat something after I eat the gelatinous cubes and I notice that definitely effects, depending on what I eat. I make sure I’m not eating something that’s not high in fat or protein because anything that’s high in fat is going to slow the absorption down of anything that you have.
If you want something in your system longer you want to take anything with high fat in it. Just like alcohol, the best thing to eat before you drink alcohol is avocado. What is it I’m trying to think of, when you mash avocado up?
TIm Pickett: Guacamole.
Elikqitie: Thank you. Guacamole, yeah.
Chris Holifield: Best food on the planet.
Elikqitie: If you eat three or four tablespoons of guacamole before you drink, you can still obviously you don’t want to drink and drive, but slows the absorption down of alcohol in your system because all of that fat, it just takes longer for your system to absorb it because you have to digest that fat first.
TIm Pickett: Yeah, good to know.
Chris Holifield: That’s seriously really good to know.
Elikqitie: Yes. Drink lots of water too. I always told my daughters, oh my gosh when my daughters went to college, I knew, it’s so funny because I’m one of those moms that’s like, “Okay, I know realistically they’re going to go to parties when they go to college,” so I told my older daughter when she first started to go to college. I’m like, “Look, here’s the deal, I know you’re going to drink when you go to parties. I know you’re going to go to parties, moms not stupid. It’s just a fact of life. When you drink, drink one glass of alcohol, make sure you always hold it in your hand. You don’t ever give it to anybody else. Drink a glass of water. Just milk it. Never, ever, ever let anybody give you too much.” There’s all these little scientific things that you can do to keep yourself running smoothly.
TIm Pickett: I find that that’s with cannabis too. You got to keep some ice water on hand.
Elikqitie: Ice water.
TIm Pickett: Yeah, ice water…[crosstalk 00:41:06]
Chris Holifield: Get that cotton mouth going.
TIm Pickett: … for some reason I find that when that hunger sensation comes on, to me it’s really thirst. I just don’t recognize it as thirst so when I drink I realize, “Oh wow, I was just thirsty.”
Chris Holifield: It keeps me from… I do the same thing, it keeps me from putting a bunch of food in my mouth.
TIm Pickett: Me too.
Elikqitie: That makes sense because I’ve been really thirsty lately and I couldn’t figure out why and that’s probably it. I’ll just start… I normally drink a lot of water, I keep water at my desk so as I write I’m drinking water but yeah, one morning I woke up and I’m like, “Man, I’m really thirsty,” I just downed two glasses of water. It’s okay, waters good for you.
Chris Holifield: How can listeners get ahold of you? Let’s talk about your podcast, I know they’re not cannabis related but let’s plug them just because they’re great podcasts. What are the podcasts you do?
Elikqitie: I have two podcasts out right now, one that just had it’s three year anniversary February 28th, I’m super excited.
Chris Holifield: Happy anniversary.
TIm Pickett: Congratulations.
Elikqitie: Thank you. It’s been oh my gosh, there’s always times when your podcasting you’re like, “Do I really still want to do this?”
TIm Pickett: Yeah, I know that one.
Elikqitie: Right. My one podcast is Travel Gluten Free and I talk about, since obviously I’m Celiac, I talk about how you can travel and be gluten free and not get sick. If you aren’t aware, if you don’t have Celiac Disease, if you do get gluten you can be sick from five to seven days, which will potentially wipe out your whole vacation. I always love to travel and when I became gluten free six years ago I figured out it was really really hard to travel and be safe and not get sick on your vacation. Nobody had a resource out there that says, “Here’s how you do it,” it was more like, “Hey, here’s 10 restaurants in Salt Lake that are great to eat at.”
It’s like, okay but if I’m not in Salt Lake, how do I find a restaurant? How do I cruise? How do I do a road trip and be gluten free? I created Travel Gluten Free podcast to help people learn the how, it’s kind of like teach people how to fish. Learning how to be gluten free and learning how to do it safely when you’re traveling.
Then my other podcast I have is called COVID Travel Update, and if you haven’t figured that out, I love to travel. I’m talking about all the latest things that are opening with COVID and I’m going to end that podcast actually this summer, yay. Super excited about that, and I’m turning it into the Business of Tourism and Travel where I’m going to talk about digital marketing for people that are in the travel and tourism industry. If you are someone that’s in the travel and tourism industry and you’re a professional and you want to learn about DIY digital marketing and how to get some great content going on your platform, definitely subscribe to COVID Travel Update because it’s just going to flip this summer into the Business of Travel and Tourism.
TIm Pickett: Very cool. Is it kind of exciting to have a project that’s going to kind of end?
Chris Holifield: You’re like, “Finally, there’s an end to this.”
TIm Pickett: You have a finish right? We go into business and we go into projects and we really don’t have an exit strategy. We have an entry strategy but we don’t. Congratulations on figuring out how to make something stop and turn into something new.
Elikqitie: Thanks. And I knew obviously with COVID because I knew it wasn’t going to be around forever, that I would have to change it into something but I figured out what I was going to change it into a couple months ago. I’m really excited about flipping it and I have other projects going on up in the air. But yeah, tune into either one of those podcasts, if anybody wants to get ahold of me, they can get ahold of me through Travelglutenfreepodcast.com or Travel Gluten Free Podcast on Instagram. If you want to find any of my stuff on social media channels, you just have to search the hashtag, TravelGFme. So it’s travel, G-F, the two letters, me. You can find all of my social media platforms under that hashtag.
Chris Holifield: Very cool.
TIm Pickett: That’s very cool.
Chris Holifield: Thank you for coming and doing the podcast.
Elikqitie: I am so excited that I’m here doing it again with you Chris. This is awesome.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, yeah. We had you on I am Salt Lake…
Elikqitie: I think it was 188.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, it was…[crosstalk 00:44:56]
Elikqitie: Many episodes ago.
Chris Holifield: It was many, many episodes again. I’m glad to record another podcast. You’ll have to go back and listen. If you want to listen to Elikqitie’s whole story, go listen to it on I am Salt Lake. Anyway, any other questions you want to ask her Tim?
TIm Pickett: No, this has been a good conversation. I’ve really enjoyed it.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, anything else you want to add?
Elikqitie: Tim, I just want to say thank you for having your clinic because it’s made my life a lot better.
TIm Pickett: You’re welcome. I’m very happy that people are finding their way to choosing something different with their own health and if cannabis is that tool for you, that’s amazing. We really just want to help people find that next step.
Chris Holifield: And utahmarijuana.org/podcast is where you can find all the episodes of the podcast and go to utahmarijuana.org, there’s tons of great articles on medical marijuana in Utah…[crosstalk 00:45:50]
TIm Pickett: There’s great articles, we are going to do… we’re working on a blog article and some information on micro dosing because it’s such an important topic, especially in the medical world where people don’t really want to get high all the time. We’re constantly publishing more stuff, more education in that way. Utahmarijuana.org. Listen to Chris’ other podcast I am Salt Lake.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, Iamsaltlake.com. Go check it out, go give it a listen.
Tim Pickett: All right everybody, stay safe out there.
Medical Cannabis patient and advocate Carlos Lopez is Chris and Tim’s guest for episode 54 of Utah and the Weeds. Like so many other patients, Lopez has a fascinating story of how he came to Medical Cannabis as a prescription opioid user.
Lopez was born in 1988 and grew up in the DARE era. [04:41] He even completed the DARE program in middle school. What he learned from that program kept him away from drugs until an accident during his junior year in high school.
Lopez suffered an injury to his eye after being shot in the face with a BB gun. [06:33] The BB penetrated his eye socket and caused nerve damage. His doctors put him on ibuprofen in the weeks following surgery to remove the BB. [08:39] The ibuprofen eventually gave way to opioids, which doctors were gradually increasing to compensate for Lopez’ tolerance.
Some 16 years later, he still suffers debilitating migraines and nerve pain. He was introduced to cannabis by a friend during his senior year in high school. Lopez says he found instant relief. He began using cannabis to self-medicate and has since stopped using opioids altogether.[10:27]
It was the Utah in the Weeds podcast that introduced Lopez to the idea of getting his Medical Cannabis card late last year. [12:45] As an avid user, Lopez is also committed to research and education. He follows all the growers in Utah along with the products they are producing.
Above and beyond his story, Lopez spoke with Tim and Chris about Utah’s supply problem. [27:51] The trio briefly talked about how the problem will only get worse as more people get their cards. There was also a brief discussion on some of the different products and delivery methods Lopez uses. [43:51] It was a great discussion from start to finish.
Chris Holifield: So yeah, let’s welcome everybody out today to this episode of Utah in the Weeds. My name’s Chris Holifield.
Tim Pickett: And I’m Tim Pickett, Medical Cannabis Expert in Utah and a provider here in today’s episode.
Chris Holifield: Oh man, I am so excited to play this one.
Tim Pickett: We were waiting for this for a while, right?
Chris Holifield: Yeah, this is with Carlos Lopez. This is a Utah Cannabis patient here in Utah. This guy — he’s the biggest advocate.
Tim Pickett: He’s the number one member of the Utah Cannabis Fan Club.
Chris Holifield: But in a good way.
Tim Pickett: He really is.
Chris Holifield: This guy’s got such a great story. I was so excited to have him on the show and share it, just listen this conversation and you’ll know what I’m talking about.
Tim Pickett: This was one of my favorite conversations. He has a really, really good story. Talking about his-
Chris Holifield: I don’t want to give too many spoilers, though.
Tim Pickett: I know, right. Talking about his injury and how that affected-
Chris Holifield: How cannabis really saved his life.
Tim Pickett: And how he got back into cannabis, or how he got into cannabis in the first place is just fascinating.
Tim Pickett: Okay, so a couple of housekeeping things.
Chris Holifield: 4/20’s coming up on-
Tim Pickett: 4/20 is coming up next Tuesday.
Chris Holifield: So depending on when you’re listening to this, this comes out the Friday before 4/20. So if you’re listening to this before 4/20, we’ve got some events.
Tim Pickett: That’s right. So one event that I’ll mention is a patient drive that we’re doing in partnership with EDM Cannabis Shop, CBD Shop on 7100 South and State Street. If you want an appointment for this, it’s going to be food trucks and music and there’s a pretty steep discount. This is not a listed event online. You’ve got to call their shop to get an appointment. EDM Cannabis Shop, 7100 South and State. Check that out if you really feel like you need to get in for a card evaluation, you can do that.
Chris Holifield: Then the big events at Dragonfly.
Tim Pickett: Dragonfly.
Chris Holifield: They actually posted some on Instagram here. I don’t know if you wanted to mention it Tim, or I can just even read the little flyer here. It just says, “Utah Canna Fest. It’s a community event featuring Utah Cannabis industry leaders, local artisan booths, food trucks, 4/20 deals, raffles and giveaways,” and then they’re going to introduce the Utah Patient Subsidy Program, brought to you by the Utah Patient’s Coalition, that’s Mario’s group, isn’t it?
Tim Pickett: Well, it’s Desiree Hennessy-
Chris Holifield: That’s right, Desiree Hennessy.
Tim Pickett: Desiree Hennessy runs that group. She’s going to announce that program in partnership with, and there’s more than Dragonfly involved in the Subsidy Program, than just Dragonfly, but they are definitely the biggest, they sponsor the opening of the event. We’re going to give away a couple of free visits in the raffle, so some free evaluations.
Tim Pickett:
There’s going to be some other really good gifts, so come down.
Chris Holifield:
And we want to recording some of the podcast, so if you see Tim or I and you want to say a few words, say “Hey, I’d love to say a few words on the podcast,” and then that way we can record with you.
Tim Pickett: That’s right.
Chris Holifield: I don’t know exactly what we’ll be doing with the podcast. But I have a few ideas.
Tim Pickett: I don’t know what time we’ll be recording but I’ll be there most all of the day.
Chris Holifield: Says this is 11:00 to 7:00 and they’re right downtown, 711 South State Street. Right across from Sapa, if you know where that is, the old Sears building downtown.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, that’s going to be an exciting event. And then I think all of the all of the pharmacies have discount programs surrounding 4/20, kind of the cannabis holiday, Cannabis Christmas.
Chris Holifield: Cannabis Christmas. Anything else going on with utahmarijuana.org that you want to discuss?
Tim Pickett: We could open up, we could just mention it. We’re going to open up our Provo location for evaluations starting May 1st, again, so Utah County will have just more access down there. All kinds of fun things going on, just stay tuned to the podcast.
Chris Holifield: And utahmarijuana.org is Instagram-med to go follow you guys there to see what you guys have got going on. Utahmarijuana.org/podcast, go there. We’ve got 53 other episodes up there, so I know it’s a lot but there’s some good content up there. You can learn a lot about the program here in Utah, you can learn a lot about the people here. But there’s a lot of good information there.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, it’s a great place to go. I’m excited for people to listen to this.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, Carlos Lopez, let’s get into this one. Like I said, he’s a cannabis patient here in Utah. He’s got a great story about some different pain issues that he had to deal with and how cannabis has really helped him take the bull by the horns, so to say, and take life on.
Chris Holifield: So anyways, let’s get into that conversation. Here we go.
Chris Holifield: Your first time you used cannabis, how you got introduced to it, let’s go back there for you.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, so as I was saying, I’m a ’90s kid, born in ’88. So the first time I was introduced, I’m ”just say no” era. I grew up in grade school in DARE program. They embedded that in my head. I did that before I started class, I did that… there was an after program, you did that almost on a daily. And I got the t-shirt with the lion, graduated.
Chris Holifield: I remember the DARE t-shirt.
Carlos Lopez: Uh-huh. For some kids it was probably whatever, but I was only in fourth, fifth grade. It stuck. In my head, I’m thinking this is the evil weed. The government, like I was saying, the whole reefer madness. That was in my head. That was a mental thing. It was a mental thing. It was, “No, stay away. Smoking’s bad.”
Chris Holifield: So, of course, you believed it.
Carlos Lopez: I believed it, right. As an adolescent, right. So I’m growing up, middle school, high school goes along. I stayed away from it. I hung around with kids that did it. “It just doesn’t do anything for me,” that was my cop out, “It doesn’t do anything for me.”
Chris Holifield: Did you grow up here in Utah?
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, I grew up right here in West Valley, Kearns.
Chris Holifield: So that’s why I was kind of curious, the area. That makes — I mean, Utah, I could imagine Utah, especially.
Tim Pickett: That’s an interesting way to put it, right. “It doesn’t do anything for me.”
Carlos Lopez: That was my-
Tim Pickett: That’s your go-to, right?
Carlos Lopez: That was the way I-
Tim Pickett: I remember-
Carlos Lopez: Instead of just say no, because the DARE program was “Just say no.” And that worked too, but by the time I-
Tim Pickett: But that doesn’t work in some of these… It’s like these kids have… It’s a little bit of peer pressure. It’s not like direct pressure, it’s like you want to fit in, you want to be part of the group.
Carlos Lopez: Definitely.
Tim Pickett: And that’s an interesting way to do it. I haven’t heard that. But I remember kids in high school and college saying that to me. Now, I’ve got to go back and think, “Huh, was that just you not wanting to do it?”
Carlos Lopez: No, that was just from being young and remembering the program and just sticking to it. I thought I was doing the right thing. I thought I was doing the right thing and doing good at school. So school goes along and it wasn’t until it was the end of my junior going into senior, I had an accident. I was shot in the face with a CO2 pistol, and the BB penetrated my left eye socket and it rolled behind my left eye, and it rested there. And it wasn’t until my mom took me, a week later, from when the swelling went down to take X-rays, that we saw a little dot in my skull.
Carlos Lopez: The doctor’s like “There’s a BB in there. We’ve got to take that out.” I was scared. I was at that time, I don’t want you to cut my face. And, “No, no. We can do precision. We can easily pull your eye out so far and we work around it, put you out.” I said, “Okay.” We made the date, and it happened.
Carlos Lopez: I still have it to this day, the little BB jar, plastic jar with my X-ray. That’s actually what I took when I went to Empathetix to get my stuff for the first time. That was the moment where my life changed because from there, ever since that surgery, from waking up, they did great. They did a great job, got it out, they were recording it but I don’t want to watch it. I have a weak stomach so I can’t watch stuff like that, so I didn’t watch the video, but I took the BB and the X-rays.
Tim Pickett: Right, I mean you’ve got to have something.
Chris Holifield: How long ago was this?
Carlos Lopez: ‘05. Yeah, to answer your question, where you started, this was in ’05 this happened.
Chris Holifield: So 16 years ago.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, 16 years’ish ago and I was put on steroids and cortisone shots, because I used to have migraines. Ever since that shot, I’ve had these horrible spike migraines and this pressure that builds up, because on this left side of my face, when the BB hit, there was nerve damage, so it goes like down this along the side of my face. So I have this outside nerve pain, almost if you could imagine the tip of a knife, but 1,000 of them throughout that area. And then on the inside, it triggers the migraines and the headaches, so it’s like between the two of them, it’s almost unbearable.
Chris Holifield: So what were you using for pain then?
Carlos Lopez: At that time, they were putting me on opioids, like pain pills. I was taking the lower prescription, because I was starting off with over the counter, Ibuprofen. It wasn’t cutting it. From there, the doctor put me on some lower dose Loratab and then the pain was still throbbing and it was just gradually going. The doses were increasing, the opioid amount was getting more, I don’t know if you call it more potent?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, you build up tolerance.
Carlos Lopez: It was like over, for me, it wasn’t until the end of high school my senior year that after doing the pills for almost a year and it would affect my digestive system, I wasn’t able to use the restroom like I normally would. It would affect my appetite. I just was…
Chris Holifield: Were you bedridden?
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, absolutely. I was numb… I would turn myself off. I almost feel scratchy when I’m taking my medicine. Just not myself. I was like, “This is not me.” I just didn’t like who I was becoming over that year.
Tim Pickett: What people don’t understand is that you walk in here. You look, there is no physical sign that you have this, that you’ve had this injury, or that you’ve had this opioid prescriptions. It’s not visible. And people forget that.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah. It wasn’t until like I said, like you said the tolerance builds, and eventually but it doesn’t stop the pain, because I get this building pressure, where it’s almost like a hot iron mixed with a sledgehammer whacked against your head, this is when the migraines trigger.
Carlos Lopez: And then obviously I can tolerate the knife pain more than that. On the outside, but so it wasn’t until after the shots and the pills that a friend of mine growing up with, one of my best friends actually, he had knee pain playing football. Anyways he used to use cannabis and smoke. Weed back then, we’d call it, or bud whatever.
Carlos Lopez: And it wasn’t until then, we were hanging out and he was, “You know what?” And I was having an episode and I didn’t have my pills with me. And he’s like, “Look, try this dude.” At the time I was already almost done with school. I was thinking, “Oh, what the hell. It seems to help. He’s my friend, he’s not going to steer me the wrong way because we grew up together. He’s my best friend.”
Carlos Lopez: And he had some kind of OG or something, I can’t remember if it was a Kush, and that was my first introduction to real cannabis, like full inhalation and I remember hitting that flower and it was just like, just relief. If you can imagine things felt tight and gritty and it was just like things soften and relaxed. Just that pain, that pressure built up and that iron hot just faded.
Chris Holifield: So when he let you use cannabis, were you familiar with the term medical cannabis, at all?
Carlos Lopez: Not at all.
Chris Holifield: You were just used to it kind of as a recreational thing.
Carlos Lopez: 100% DARE program, just say no. This is evil weed.
Tim Pickett: But you hadn’t done any research on it or anything.
Carlos Lopez: Oh, other than like growing up and what the school taught us, no.
Tim Pickett: You’re just introduced to it-
Carlos Lopez: So I may be a little ignorant in that aspect, I guess I could say.
Tim Pickett: But that’s-
Carlos Lopez: But I just thought they were teaching us the right thing, because it was school. I don’t know.
Chris Holifield: You probably haven’t had a ton of opportunity to talk about your story, I would imagine.
Carlos Lopez: No. It’s been secret.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, well, I mean it’s-
Carlos Lopez: This is honestly the first time I’m really opening up.
Chris Holifield: Well, thank you.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, we appreciate that, and I think vocalization the story to yourself sometimes, really makes a big impact on how you’re hearing your own story out loud and you’re like, “Oh, my God. This is real.”
Chris Holifield: You said you got your card a year ago?
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, so it was towards the end of last year, I finally was able to be legal. Visiting Empathetix and doing research and actually what got me to it was your Utah in the work, following your IG handle [crosstalk 00:13:01]-
Tim Pickett: Oh yeah, @utah_marijuana_org.
Carlos Lopez: I was starting to hear your podcast and I was starting to tie two and two. I was like, okay yeah. I started learning more from these people like I was talking about, with Zach, with Mario going way back, and I was like, “Okay, I needed to do research. I’m paying for insurance, what am I doing?” But I guess insurance doesn’t cover it anyway.
Tim Pickett: Right.
Carlos Lopez: I figured dealing with what I have with I have the medical records I have from my incident to the surgery to the post surgeries to the script of the papers that they have me trying out. The A’s, B’s, and C’s that don’t work.
Chris Holifield: You have enough documentation.
Tim Pickett: Oh yeah, absolutely.
Carlos Lopez: I get it, you can’t physically see it, but mine’s all internal.
Chris Holifield: So are you off of all of opioids?
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, absolutely. It was then. From that moment that I tried that whatever it was, I think it was OG, I can’t remember, Skywalker, whatever it was. I remember him saying, “OG Kush,” it was love at first sight. It was all the relief without the icky side effects that I get from pharmaceuticals.
Tim Pickett: Instead of feeling worse, you felt better.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, I felt better. I didn’t have, like I said, that throbbing and that iron sensation from my chronic headaches, and I also, this is before my accident but I’ve had chronic insomnia, ever since I’ve been little. I just… it’s just the way it is.
Chris Holifield: As do we all-
Tim Pickett: You’ve got the magic pill, right?
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, so it just seemed to solve so many things that these pills can’t really do, in the long run. And it seems like those, not just harm you but they kill you. So I figured this is like… I started to do more research and look into the plant more and there’s still way more I need to learn, but figure out THC and CBD and all these other ones, like CBC and CBG and CBN and THCV and THCA and all this, it keeps going. The list goes and goes.
Carlos Lopez: There’s so many medicinal benefits that were… so eye opening. I was just in shock. I was like, “Wow, this is what the government’s been repressing (from) us, all this time.”
Tim Pickett: It does seem like that, doesn’t it?
Carlos Lopez: They’re keeping us from this natural, alternative medicine.
Tim Pickett: When you tried in 2005 and then you start using it and basically your options are smoke flower?
Carlos Lopez: Well, yeah. At the time, basically I had a friend that his cousin basically had what we would call the plug, the connect. And I had flower on me at that time… We had great, different varieties, great strains. Big, beautiful buds. I think they were coming from California or Oregon, I can’t remember at the time. Whether it was you wanted flower, dabs weren’t as big back then. It was mostly just flower. And then a little bit later on, maybe five, 10 years as down the line is when carts maybe started to pop up.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, it doesn’t seem like I ever saw a cart until 2015.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: I remember the first time I ever saw a cart.
Carlos Lopez: It was weird.
Chris Holifield: I was like, “get out of here.” I just thought it was, “Oh, my gosh.”
Carlos Lopez: Like what the heck.
Chris Holifield:
All I knew was you put flower in a little glass pipe.
Carlos Lopez: That’s what I was doing.
Tim Pickett: It was either a glass pipe or what you could make.
Chris Holifield: These are cartridges, get out of here! Now, they’re the hot thing. Now everybody’s got carts.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, so honestly just between that and obviously as time rolled on and I’ve been working, like I said, it’s a steady job. I’m fortunate that I’ve had a consistent living, 15 now plus years and-
Tim Pickett: Do you believe cannabis helped you?
Carlos Lopez: Absolutely. Cannabis saved my life.
Chris Holifield: It helped make you a functioning member of society.
Carlos Lopez: It’s given me back things that I wouldn’t ever have that the pills they give you bedridden, they turn you off from life. You’re numb. Where cannabis, almost puts life in me. I’m able to work longer, better, more efficient. I can be around my family more often and not hurt.
Chris Holifield: And when you mentioned insomnia.
Carlos Lopez: I can sleep.
Chris Holifield: There’s nothing worse than getting up the next day and not sleeping, dude like, “Oh man, I’ve got an hour’s sleep. Now, I’m expected to go to work and be nice to my fellow employees.”
Carlos Lopez: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Nice, cordial, obey the rules.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Now, you have… So it’s not really just the pain relief, it’s the added benefit of now you sleep better, so you actually have less pain because you sleep better and you can recover better.
Carlos Lopez: Yes, I get a better night’s sleep between being able to combat my insomnia and the pain, I’m forever grateful for this plant.
Tim Pickett: Tell me about your tolerance. Your tolerance at the beginning, obviously pretty low. Everybody starts out pretty low.
Carlos Lopez: Oh yeah, for sure.
Tim Pickett: What’s your use look like? Has it gone up and down?
Carlos Lopez: It’s been a rollercoaster really. Honestly, there are some times that I’ve done tolerance breaks even, believe it nor not, as much as you think I’m consuming, there are times-
Tim Pickett: No, the reason I ask because I don’t know your use-
Carlos Lopez: No, no, right. Just to give you an idea of what it looks like.
Tim Pickett: Right, like I’m assuming that it is going to go up sometimes, go down sometimes.
Carlos Lopez: It is, definitely. The more I find the more I use, for me, for example, I like to start my day with dabs, I don’t know what it is, but from waking up and having sore joints and your muscles, it helps get things a little bit loose and relaxed, and between I get my dab in me. Because I’m working on the office, I work a lot of the keyboard, the mouse, I take my balm, I’d always rub my balm on, that’s really effective. It helps my wrist and my right shoulder and I’m ready to go. Between my good dab, and if I don’t have a dab, then definitely flower is what I’m resorting to.
Carlos Lopez: Then gummies. You’ve got to be careful, because sometimes I overdo it and it can be too much at once. And you’re done. Like I’m sorry, “I might have to clock out for the day.”
Tim Pickett: We always recommend that people start without-
Carlos Lopez: Low and slow, for sure.
Tim Pickett: Like don’t start with edibles. They’re hard to adjust to.
Carlos Lopez: It is.
Tim Pickett: I know-
Chris Holifield: Well they creep up you, man.
Tim Pickett: They creep up on you and you get two hours in and you’re like, “Wow, if this gets any worse, I’m in trouble.” Well, you might be an hour in and you might be thinking, “Wow, if this gets any worse,” like you said, “I’ve got to clock out.”
Tim Pickett: But they’re so convenient because they’re very discrete.
Carlos Lopez: Absolutely.
Tim Pickett: They’re relatively healthy from a use standpoint and a side effects standpoint. But they’re a little tricky.
Carlos Lopez: They are.
Tim Pickett: And there’s been a ton, like… man have you seen? It seems like the feeds are all about these drinks and these added things, you’re adding to a drink.
Chris Holifield: Oh, for like THC?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, THC.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, I’ve seen that. I think is it Select that has those new drops? I think I was actually-
Tim Pickett: Yeah, you add them to, it is, Curaleaf owns that company. They’re not available in Utah. So for any listeners-
Chris Holifield: Yeah, I was going to say, I haven’t seen these.
Tim Pickett: You can’t have drinks in Utah, and you can’t technically have edibles in Utah. You can have gelatinous cubes-
Carlos Lopez: That’s the gummies we get.
Tim Pickett: Which is the gummies you get, which as of April 1st, they won’t be coated in sugar.
Chris Holifield: Wait, wait. Tell me more about these. Because I think we talked about that.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, we talked a little bit to Rich Oborn on this.
Carlos Lopez: How is that going to work with all these sugar-coated ones?
Chris Holifield: Why can’t they have sugar?
Tim Pickett: I don’t think it’s the Department of Health. It wasn’t their rule. I think it was the Department of Agriculture. But because you can have gelatinous cubes, but you can’t have edibles, my understanding is the sugar coating makes them more candy like and so is more attractive to kids-
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, the youth.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, more tasty. So they’re going to essentially individually wrap every single gelatinous cube to keep them from sticking together, because they only use-
Chris Holifield: You know, I think there’s a lot more things to worry about like the candy aisle in a grocery store or-
Tim Pickett: Right? Or the sugar consumption of American children…
Chris Holifield: Like come on, let’s-
Carlos Lopez: Get real.
Chris Holifield: Yeah to me there’s a lot more to worry about than if my gelatinous cube has some sugar on it.
Tim Pickett: Maybe we should just educate people to buy a lock-in case, put their medicine into the locked cabinet and keep it safe.
Chris Holifield: Right.
Carlos Lopez: So, there you go.
Tim Pickett: Likely just as effective. We like to hound those guys on little things like this. And I’m sure they think the same thing, they’re like, “Ah, I don’t know but it probably seems like the right thing to do to adjust the rules.”
Tim Pickett: Anyway, sorry, we got off topic.
Carlos Lopez: No, no.
Chris Holifield: That’s the joy of a podcast.
Tim Pickett: But the use, right? Have you gotten up to the point where you’ve been using an ounce a week? Or, an ounce a month?
Carlos Lopez: No, but what I do is like to mix it up. So I used to, before becoming legal, I used to really just stick one way. I’d use heavy flower, maybe sometimes I’d switch it to dabs. I kind of flip flopped to be honest. And then once becoming legal and now having these options, and I experiment, so I like to branch out. I did start here at Wholesome, that’s where I brought my letter because I was down on Dover Street, at Empathetix. It was seven, 10 minutes away. So I didn’t realize I was married to Wholesome, you know, until I got my card, at the time.
Carlos Lopez: So it’s the farthest from me, because I’m all the way in West Valley.
Tim Pickett: Oh, shoot.
Chris Holifield: Because you had a letter.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, because I had a letter, but I immediately had already paid the fee before walking out of Empathetix because I did the online fee, so it was already pending to convert. But it still took like 10, I can’t remember how long it was, but it was a little bit less than two weeks, but it felt forever.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. And it does, and there are going to be, so that everybody knows, they are going to upgrade the system and they passed a rule to allow us to give cards immediately. It won’t be effective until later this year, October, November, but then you’ll go back to this system where you can leave your QMP, you can go right over. Like here. We’re right next to Wholesome, recording. You could leave here and you could walk right through the door, check in and boom, purchase. Just like the letter program.
Carlos Lopez: That’s something to look forward to.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, with access though. You can kind of switch it up. You can buy a little. You don’t have to buy a ton.
Carlos Lopez: They kind of opened the floodgates, if you will. Not like that, but it really introduced a whole new realm of products and varieties. I didn’t have that opportunity before. And so I do, I’m like that trial and error guy. I first try it, if it works then I will stick behind it. If it doesn’t, then axed off the list.
Chris Holifield: Do you have a favorite strain?
Carlos Lopez: Definitely. Overall? Or, here?
Chris Holifield: Something that you’ve into been lately, both.
Tim Pickett: Both.
Chris Holifield: Overall.
Carlos Lopez: Overall, I’m a huge OG fan. Anything really OG, Skywalker OG from Perfect Earth seems to really kick me good. Hit me where I need to be.
Chris Holifield: I haven’t been up to Perfect Earth yet.
Tim Pickett: No, we need those guys to come on the podcast, but they’re growing some pretty good product up there, too.
Carlos Lopez: It does. I’ve been keeping my eyes on them. They have a pretty interesting, beautiful looking grow, so we’ll see what they produce.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. And you follow pretty much all the growers and you know when the drops are happening.
Carlos Lopez: That’s right, yeah.
Tim Pickett: So essentially we could just follow you, and we would know.
Carlos Lopez: I wish.
Tim Pickett: You’d be like the kayak of the cannabis industry. You’ll keep track of it all for us and you’ll let us know.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, I don’t mind at all helping. I mean honestly, ever since this, not just this podcast, but with the whole program we have and the IG, I get DM’s daily, to this day. People I don’t know, and they ask me, “Hey, how was that?” Or, “Hey, what was this?” Because, certain things that I have tried that people have known about. Things that may have worked for me, and that didn’t work for me.
Chris Holifield: That’s right because on your Instagram, you post all the stuff you’re getting.
Carlos Lopez: I have had most of them that are definitely ones that work for me and I think there are very, very few let known didn’t cut it, basically. The majority of them, yes. They’re winners, for me anyway.
Chris Holifield: What about your family and friends, man? What do they think about your cannabis use?
Carlos Lopez: They’re, honestly, they think it’s probably the best thing that happened to me. From the ones, at least the closest ones that’ve seen me at my darkest time, back then, fully support what I’m doing and what’s going on in Utah as far as progressing hopefully, legalization’s. Because everyone should have the right to enjoy this God-given plant. No one should be deprived of this. We’re all dealing with something in some form or fashion.
Chris Holifield: Well, yeah exactly. It’s kind of like who said that? One of the pharmacists I think that we talked to said that we chatted with them but then they were like, “We all kind of use it medicinally, even if we’re not -”
Tim Pickett: All use is medicinal.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, because you’re using it for a reason.
Tim Pickett: People that if you interview cannabis users, you’re using it for all kinds of things. You’re using it for the Saturday afternoon creative jam session. You’re using it when you paint. You’re using it to sleep, to suppress dreams if you have PTSD. Think of all the things, and this is all just something that somebody who has access to it, would just use it for, it’s almost like an instinct.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, exactly. No it is, absolutely.
Tim Pickett: You reach for something that helps you feel better, or and if it didn’t work, then-
Carlos Lopez: You move on.
Tim Pickett: You move on.
Carlos Lopez: I mean, that’s just the way it works. That’s the rules of logic, or nature of the law, however you want to say it, or put it. I’m just grateful for not just the platform but seeing how far Utah has come. It’s made me, at least happy. I know there’s a lot of people that aren’t happy and I get also DM’s of that, too. Don’t get it like it’s all sunshine, don’t get it twisted.
Chris Holifield: Do people DM you?
Tim Pickett: Oh yeah, they’re-
Carlos Lopez: Absolutely.
Chris Holifield: What kind of stuff? I mean, they think cannabis should be illegal?
Carlos Lopez: I’m mental. I’m getting bamboozled, you’re getting ripped off. Dah, de, dah, dah.
Chris Holifield: Okay, I didn’t know-
Carlos Lopez: So it all comes down to the price.
Chris Holifield: If they were saying-
Carlos Lopez: It all honestly comes down to not just the price, but I also understand and I can express their frustrations in a sense that I do think we need more cultivators. Eight isn’t enough, for our state. And seeing the new magazine, which is awesome by the way, by Cole. Shout out to Cole.
Chris Holifield: Faces, yeah-
Carlos Lopez: Awesome, Salt Baked City magazine, a beautiful layout showing all the pharmacies labeling on the addresses, numbers. But it’s not enough. What about all those rural areas, what about them?
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: It really is, like I’ve been thinking about Justice in St. George. They’re going to open in a couple of months.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, I heard that? 4/20 maybe?
Tim Pickett: There’s going to be one… Oh, if they make it to… They’ve got a lot of work to do. Shout out to those guys, though. They could pull it off. But they’re the only place. You’ve got to buy there, or you’ve got to go up to Bloom and Cedar City.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Who will open about the same time. I mean these are… There isn’t another industry that you would have that limited stock.
Carlos Lopez: No, not at all.
Chris Holifield: Well, St. George’s is full of old people so I imagine they’re all going to get their card.
Carlos Lopez: Definitely.
Chris Holifield: You’d think, right?
Tim Pickett: The more it gets legitimized the better it will be. And I think-
Carlos Lopez: That’s my hope. That’s my hope. And that’s what I get knocked down on all the time, too is because-
Tim Pickett: Really?
Carlos Lopez: Depends on when they’re like, “You need to put more pressure on so and so.” And I get that. You do need to do your part, but you can do easy things, like make some emails, make phone calls. We call could do that.
Tim Pickett: Sure and you’re not going to get it all the way.
Carlos Lopez: No, you’re never going to get your cake and eat it, too. Right, it’s all in good time. That’s my optimism is, in good time. I didn’t even think Utah would be legal, that I could be doing this right now. Like 32, 2020, I never thought this would happen. Even thinking back when I I visited all of our neighboring states, Cali, Colorado, that’s my favorite, that’s priceless. Oregon, New Mexico, Arizona. I’ve been all over just around us and everyone’s got their own sweet pieces of the pie, but Utah’s done something uncovering these extra cannabinoids.
Carlos Lopez: We could really do something here and changing I think the whole market as far as the medical industry.
Tim Pickett: Have you been watching that?
Carlos Lopez: Absolutely.
Tim Pickett: Compared to other states that are surrounding us, and this is something I guess I haven’t paid a lot of attention to is, are other states focusing on the medicinal qualities of the other cannabinoids.
Carlos Lopez: No, it’s just Utah.
Chris Holifield: Colorado’s more of a rec state.
Carlos Lopez: Correct.
Chris Holifield: They’re just saying, “Just sell THC. Just sell THC.”
Carlos Lopez: Well, between you, I love your and Blake’s show, I’m on that, on it like bonnet. Honestly I can’t get enough of it.
Chris Holifield: That’s a great show by the way.
Carlos Lopez: It’s amazing.
Tim Pickett: Thanks, it’s really fun to produce and we feel like it’s getting a little bit better as we go. And for listeners who don’t what it is, its Discover Marijuana on YouTube and it’s Blake Smith, from Zion Medicinal who is a bioanalytical chemist, knows a lot about the details.
Carlos Lopez: Oh yeah, he’s a cool guy.
Tim Pickett: He’s like the mad scientist, and I’m trying to make sense of it all, bring it back to usable-
Carlos Lopez: You’re awesome.
Tim Pickett: Usable info. But it’s a fun place for people to go, get more info, like legitimate. We talk about the good and the bad.
Carlos Lopez: Right, that’s what I like You guys do always bring the truth with what’s happening, not just with the plant but other… Shine a light with the laws and stuff and making sure we’re in the know’s and the now’s and being safe and things like that.
Tim Pickett: Right.
Carlos Lopez: Utah’s a little different than other medical states, that’s for sure.
Chris Holifield: Oh, yeah.
Carlos Lopez: Way different, shall I say.
Chris Holifield: But you know what though? The more I learn about these other states, I find out that there’s some other states with goofy stuff, too.
Tim Pickett: I know, we were talking about Florida.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, Florida.
Tim Pickett: Talking about how they were trying to limit the-
Carlos Lopez: THC.
Tim Pickett: … percentage of THC to 10%.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, I heard about that. I was like, “Get out of here.”
Carlos Lopez: Crazy.
Tim Pickett: And then in Georgia, the law that they’re working on now will allow people to buy two weeks worth of flower, that’s it. You can buy a two weeks supply and then you have to… So you have to purchase a lot, which is hard for people who live far away from a pharmacy.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, who decides what’s two weeks supply? That’s the problem.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, exactly.
Chris Holifield: So back to you were mentioning how we need more than eight growers in Utah.
Carlos Lopez: Yes.
Chris Holifield: Did you run into, especially you’re a pretty heavy user of cannabis, or use it pretty regularly. Did you run into any problems with supply? I still run into problems with supply.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, I do every day. I do. To this day, I run into problems with supply. Sometimes I’ll try some flower that I really find that meshes well with me, and then they won’t have it some days. And-
Chris Holifield: Or ever again.
Carlos Lopez: Or ever again, for that matter. “Oh, find us on the next batch, three or whatever months from now, or whatever.” Then obviously, I’m more concentrates, that’s my thing. As I love my concentrates, and I’m grateful with what we have now, but it just seems like we need so much more. Or it just needs to be so much more-
Chris Holifield: You need a lot more product to make more concentrate.
Carlos Lopez: And that’s what limiting the… It’s just all tying hand-in-hand where it’s just like…
Tim Pickett: Yeah, obviously it’s gotten better. As the cultivators have started growing a little bit more, the supply has gotten better.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, it has, but you’re choking the chicken where you’ve got to feed the geese, kind of thing. Well, excuse my language.
Tim Pickett: No, no. But you’re-
Carlos Lopez: I just wish there was more, I think would allow them to focus on longer growth than turning over these 60 day grows, which I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with. They’ve helped me, but they could be getting so much more from the plant maturing more than these speed cycle things, which still work. I’m not knocking that.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, but they’re doing that because they feel like they have to.
Carlos Lopez: Right, they’re putting them in a corner, right, and I get their aspect, too. You are kind of-
Chris Holifield: Speed growing the weed?
Carlos Lopez: Right.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, shortening the…
Carlos Lopez: There are certain strains or genetics.
Chris Holifield: Now educate me. Is that not good to speed grow things?
Tim Pickett: It depends. You’re growing a cultivar that is going to be able to harvest fast because it’s going to be harvest, fast. Does that make sense? You’re growing a cultivar that you can harvest fast because of the quickness with which you can harvest it. That’s the only reason you’re picking that strain.
Carlos Lopez: Or what’s going to yield the most.
Tim Pickett: Or yield, and in the long run, that doesn’t work because that isn’t necessarily the best medicine.
Carlos Lopez: Or the best thing for the patient.
Tim Pickett: Right. It’s just the best thing for getting flower into the pharmacies right now.
Carlos Lopez: Right.
Tim Pickett: And to your point, Carlos, the idea of more growers isn’t necessarily that we will have less profits. I think the industry looks at it that way. They think growers they want to protect their investment and they don’t want any more growers, they just want to grow their own. And on the one hand, you want them to build out their whole facilities and be in full production before you make that decision. On the other hand-
Carlos Lopez: But then they’re going to have so much of a head start on the other guys that are just trying to build up as they are now, too. So why not give everyone a shot all at the same time, and as things progress?
Tim Pickett: And you would think that if these guys are growing and there’s 25,000 patients, as we approach 75,000, Utah will-
Carlos Lopez: Oh wow, is that right now?
Tim Pickett: No. But I’m just saying, in the future we have 25,000 legal patients right now.
Carlos Lopez: Wow, even that’s remarkable. Wasn’t it only like a third of that, or a fourth of that, what they projected?
Tim Pickett: Yeah. And there’s differing-
Chris Holifield: Don’t ask Rich that.
Tim Pickett: Don’t ask Rich that, because he’ll be like, “Well, we didn’t maybe-
Carlos Lopez: Maybe half?
Tim Pickett: Or whatever, but I’ve heard 6,000. They projected 6,000 for the first little while-
Carlos Lopez: Oh gosh, that’s ridiculous.
Tim Pickett: And 16,000 the first year, and we’re 10,000 more than that. We’ve really… I think we’ve done well. And the Department of Health likes that there’s a lot of patients and I think that’s important for the whole program, that there’s a lot of patients.
Carlos Lopez: It’s growing.
Chris Holifield: But if you can’t supply them, what good is it?
Carlos Lopez: True.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, so as we approach, they’re doing 500 cards a week at the state.
Carlos Lopez: Wow.
Tim Pickett: So they’re increasing by a couple of 1,000 a month. If you extrapolate that out, if we’re short on supply now, we may continue to be short on supply.
Carlos Lopez: Especially when that number that just gets bigger. As we only have these eight to work with, I see where you’re going with this. It doesn’t look good. It’s almost like what I’m thinking up here.
Tim Pickett: That’s the argument I’m making-
Carlos Lopez: At least for patients and availability of the product.
Tim Pickett: I don’t know that that’s the truth, I’m just bringing that up. It does seem like if you’re short now, and granted these guys aren’t up and totally up and running fully.
Carlos Lopez: Fully.
Tim Pickett: But we’re 25,000 patients now, and we’re growing quickly.
Chris Holifield: And where are we going to be in 2022?
Carlos Lopez: And it’s only getting quicker because of the system.
Tim Pickett: Right. And the system is getting better and better.
Carlos Lopez: More efficient.
Tim Pickett: And as more and more people realize it’s a legitimate medicine, that will only increase the size of the system faster.
Chris Holifield: People are still finding out it’s even legal here in Utah.
Carlos Lopez: That’s the weird part.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, come in every day. Every day to our clinic. Every single day. They’re like, “I just found out this was legal last week.” And you’re like, “Where have you been? I was waiting for this day 10 years ago. You know what I mean? I’ve been counting these days.”
Carlos Lopez: That’s so funny. You guys are ahead of the curve, honestly.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Carlos Lopez: You are, you are ahead of me. On my card, I’m patient 30,000 plus later. Where the heck was… I should have been 300 or less. I should have been in the at no, that now.
Tim Pickett: In the beginning. No. you should have known.
Chris Holifield: That was a pretty cool day, I was actually at the Dragonfly opening. Dude, that first day-
Carlos Lopez: Oh with Mario, Mariojuana.
Chris Holifield: I didn’t go in.
Carlos Lopez: Oh, he’s episode two, I’ve heard.
Chris Holifield: I didn’t go into the dispensary, I was just there when they did the ribbon cutting. It was such, I mean goosebumps man, just because I was like, “Wow, we have this. This is pretty neat.”
Tim Pickett: It was intense.
Carlos Lopez: It was surreal.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, they’re going to do a big 4/20-
Carlos Lopez: Oh, I just can’t imagine they did the one year anniversary, which was huge. I just can’t imagine what they’ve got in store.
Tim Pickett: They’re going to put up a big event. Big announcements coming out of there.
Carlos Lopez: That will be exciting.
Tim Pickett: April 20.
Chris Holifield: So this is a question that I ask quite a few patients that come on here, Carlos, is what would you tell somebody, I would imagine people are listening that are still on the fence about trying medical cannabis, medical marijuana. Would you give them any advice or suggestions or words of assurance to put their mind at ease? Like hey, I don’t know…
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, definitely. I would say, “don’t be afraid.” It’s a natural, alternative medicine, with its endocannabinoid system that I’ve been learning about and our bodies that naturally have a cannabinoid system, we’re just a perfect match. We’re made for each other in a sense. And I don’t want to get all philosophical or into that, it’s just like it’s a so much better alternative to take that leap. For me, I waited a year and I went through pain, and I went through suffering and I went through things that I shouldn’t have, longer than I shouldn’t have, should I been lack of knowledge or education about this plant. It would have avoided all that suffering, all that time that I spent bedridden, and unmotivated and away from my family.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, “Give me my life back. I want my life back.” I understand.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, I don’t want to make it seem like it’s the unicorn of all things, because for some people it doesn’t work, either.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Carlos Lopez: For the vast majority of us, it works. And the proof is in the pudding. Numbers don’t lie.
Tim Pickett: People should take advantage of the education-
Carlos Lopez: That’s the biggest gap.
Tim Pickett: … you can find online.
Carlos Lopez: Or disconnect.
Tim Pickett: Information that you can find now online and with friends and with things like this podcast and take advantage of what you didn’t have in 2005, and what we now-
Carlos Lopez: At our disposal, like technology.
Tim Pickett: …are building, right? This intro into the legitimacy of something that may help you.
Carlos Lopez: Oh, I think it will. I mean this is not just for myself I can personally speak, but I’ve seen this help from family members, from my grandma, from my aunt, from my sister. I’ve seen this.
Chris Holifield: So it’s helped out family members, too.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, absolutely. It’s not just me. I think this is better than reaching for that medicine cabinet and grabbing the aspirin and grabbing the Ibuprofen and grabbing the pain pill, or grabbing the… You know what I mean? Whatever it is that’s a pharmaceutical. And I’m not saying all pharmaceuticals are bad, because they have their purpose in their own way. But this plant, cannabis, is just a life saver in my eyes. It’s drastically changed my life for the better, that I don’t know, I can’t be grateful enough. I’d be dead if it wasn’t for cannabis.
Chris Holifield: Dude, I’m glad we got you on the show. I’m glad. Thank you for coming and recording with us.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: It’s definitely our pleasure.
Carlos Lopez: No, you’re welcome man. I appreciate you guys. I learned a lot from your podcast and like you were saying, Utah, I’m probably saying it wrong, but the utahmarijuana.org, that’s awesome. Very knowledgeable, educational and it really gives me something to look forward to, every week. I’m always stoked to tune in, “Hey, what’s Tim and Blake doing?”
Tim Pickett: Yeah, what’s the-
Carlos Lopez: What are we going to learn today?
Tim Pickett: What are we going to listen to on the podcast?
Carlos Lopez: What’s going to be on Chris’ podcast this time? Who’s going to be the guest? Is it the hemp or is it the pharmacy guy or the High Times magazine CEO lady, or Mario back here, working, doing his thing? It’s just coming from so many different parts of the world and dynamics, it’s been exciting for me to be a part of. That’s what I like.
Carlos Lopez: We tear each other down so much, we need to lift each other up more often. And I think being in the cannabis community is part of that. Lifting one another up, not being in the negative and just focusing on the bad. But at the same time, you don’t want to be ignorant. We want to try to make change for the better.
Carlos Lopez: So that’s why I was getting on the whole limited cultivator thing.
Tim Pickett: Right.
Carlos Lopez: Because I wish that was double.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, it will get there. Rich was even saying, “Let’s see what happens. Get all these up and going, everything up and going, all the shops up and going, all the growers up and going.” But I’m afraid it will be like the I-15 construction. It’s not like they didn’t attack it soon enough, so it was just… We grew too fast, there was all these construction zones. So why not just make enough dispensaries or pharmacies open now, for the projected growth is what I see.
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Anyway.
Carlos Lopez: No, I think you’re right. Us Utahns-
Chris Holifield: We like to wait.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, in general, I know we’re a conservative state. Obviously, we get that rap all the time. Salt Lake City, I think is going to show that we are willing to change for the better and wanting this hip medicine that’s just going to make us feel better and heal. That’s going to ripple throughout the state, but it seems like everything’s so focused in on us, the county and… Everyone deserves to feel good. No one should be put in that position to have to choose, “Do I need to take this pain pill? Or, do I need to be dying for the next hours?”
Tim Pickett: Right.
Carlos Lopez: With cannabis, you don’t have to worry about that. I’ve been able to take such a variety of… I’m not sure, obviously I don’t know if you’ve seen the Hygge, but they have those FSO pills. Those are freaking awesome. Those help my insomnia better than anything.
Chris Holifield: The RSO pills?
Carlos Lopez: No, no. The green ones, the extra strength.
Chris Holifield: The Dose?
Carlos Lopez: The Dose.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, Dose, okay.
Carlos Lopez: Those will dose you, for sure.
Chris Holifield: I should try those, yeah.
Carlos Lopez: The extra strength, those, because like I’ve said, I’ve done trial and error. Those were great. The strawberry orange ones is the next best go-to for me. The 500 milligram ones, the 50 milligram each per gummy, those ones also, those help my migraines and my insomnia. Those will help me go right out and sleep through the night. That’s the key. I just wasn’t able to sleep all the times through the night. Wake up, toss and turning, hours, maybe sleep an hour, wake up in an hour kind of thing. But those will actually let me rest all the way like a normal 6-8, sometimes longer if I’m really feeling woozy and I want to live it up, go all wild.
Chris Holifield: Living on the edge. Get a couple of extra hours of sleep.
Carlos Lopez: But between… and it’s like you said, discreet, low key, medicating. I don’t have to smell like flower if I need to be somewhere I… We still live in a state that-
Tim Pickett: Professional.
Carlos Lopez: Right, right. And there’s a stigma, unfortunately, with this plant still. It’s just the way it is. And hopefully in time, I think that will change, but you don’t want to be walking around, sometimes when you’re around corporate execs smell like flower, like I’ll tell you that, like cannabis flower. But that’s where I do have… I’m able to take those at the full spectrum, extra dose cannabis capsules. Or I have recently experimented with the RSO ones.
Carlos Lopez: As a matter of fact-
Chris Holifield: The RSO capsules. I saw those, I was wondering how those work?
Carlos Lopez: Because I was supposed to take my dose, but yeah these. I don’t know if it’s okay or not.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Carlos Lopez: But yeah, it’s these ones. You know which ones are good, too? I don’t know if you want to check them out?
Chris Holifield: I haven’t had… I’ve seen pictures. I haven’t seen the actual-
Tim Pickett: No, I haven’t seen the bottle itself.
Carlos Lopez: They honestly, the green ones are bitter, I’ll be honest. They’re more effective. These ones are little bit more of a light punch for me, but that’s good, because sometimes I don’t always need that heavy hitting one that’s going to put me out for the night. I don’t need that. Want one that’s going to be a little more mild but still takes what I need away, that pain, let me function.
Carlos Lopez: Oh sorry.
Tim Pickett: Oh, you’re good. You’re good.
Carlos Lopez: But just being able to function and think straight. I love those capsules. The gummies like you said. I’ve done a lot of trial and error there. I’m not a fan of the 100 milligram Tryke ones. I tried them. I tried all 10, there was nothing happened.
Chris Holifield: All 10 at one time?
Carlos Lopez: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Holifield: It didn’t do anything for you?
Carlos Lopez: Nothing at all. I tried the Tryke it was the apple Indica THC ones. So it was like, “I’m not getting this again.” Hopefully they come out with another more potent one.
Chris Holifield: That’s what I’m excited for is as 2021 and going into 2022, is to see the products that are coming out.
Carlos Lopez: Oh yeah, even a year ago, you’ve had a patient going back a year.
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Carlos Lopez: I’m sure the whole menu is like night and day going back this time of year.
Tim Pickett: Oh, yeah. I remember going into Dragonfly and there were four options. And then there were three, because then you could buy tincture. And that was pretty much all you could buy.
Carlos Lopez: Actually I was going to cover that with you because tinctures is one thing I’ve tried that at least for what I deal with, specifically, it’s the perfect dosing. Like you said, you can precision dosing, but I don’t get that pain from my bud that I need, because I need that stronger-
Tim Pickett: Stronger yes. So for somebody like you, you need 1000 milligrams of THC in one vial. And now, you’re buying 250 milligrams THC in one vial. It’s just a matter of time until that product comes-
Carlos Lopez: And I’m sure.
Tim Pickett: Really what you need is a nano emulsified THC oil that has 1,000 milligrams in that one 30 ml bottle. That’s going to absorb faster, it’s going to be more potent and it’s going to be affordable. Something like that would be affordable for somebody with a relatively high tolerance.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, at that point, but it’s just where with it’s at now, it doesn’t seem that it, with the tinctures and the prices and where the dose is, it’s just… like I said, I just don’t get that. But like you said, in due time.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. This is a real balance for the marketplace, because most users are going to be on the low end of tolerance, where five or 10 milligrams of THC is plenty. And for somebody who needs 50, 60, 70 milligrams at a dose, the cost per milligram of THC comes into play.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, so you’re not on the same playing field, really.
Tim Pickett: So really, let’s say 80% of the patients in Utah need that low, low dose. So most of the products-
Carlos Lopez: It’s going to be tailored towards them.
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Carlos Lopez: That makes sense.
Tim Pickett: All the products you see are more tailored toward that intro medical user. And that’s why your concentrates need to come. They’re for people who have a higher tolerance and people who have more serious conditions, too. They’re necessary, there’s just fewer patients in that space.
Carlos Lopez: I appreciate you explaining it like that, because that does help put it in perspective, for me. That paints the picture for me. I’m excited as we go, fast forward the clock, five years down the road, to see… because we’re big on pharmaceuticals in general, Utah. We’re known for pain pills and opioids.
Carlos Lopez: No, it’s not a good thing.
Tim Pickett: No, we’re getting on the bandwagon though with alternative medicine.
Carlos Lopez: Right.
Tim Pickett: We’re one of the biggest states for essential oils, too. So you could see that the state could get onboard. The state could be-
Chris Holifield: I’m actually surprised how many people are onboard though. I saw on Facebook about a week ago, I’m this Utah County Facebook group, and they were complaining about the Springville dispensary opening up. There was a couple of people but then all these people saying how great it was. I was like, “This is great for Utah. A couple of moms getting all, ‘Oh, this is going to bring down our home value.'”
Chris Holifield: That’s what they were concerned about, bringing down their home value.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, the community.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, they’re like, “Oh is this dispensary gonna bring down -”
Carlos Lopez: Going to ruin our kids.
Chris Holifield: And blah, blah, blah. But I was actually surprised on how many… There’s a lot of people in this state that are actually onboard.
Tim Pickett: And willing to be vocal.
Chris Holifield: With cannabis, because of the creams and stuff like that. I think it’s because the way we’ve approached it, with vape only, no flame. So we’ve taken away all that trashy cannabis look, right?
Tim Pickett: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Holifield: Because that’s how most people look at the joint, and see that little guy.
Carlos Lopez: That’s the stigma is the bong, deal with the dreads, the reggae.
Chris Holifield: There’s nothing wrong with that. I love all that, too. But that’s not all there is to the medicine.
Carlos Lopez: No, not at all.
Tim Pickett: Like I was saying earlier. When you’re introducing this to a population that is mostly conservative, if you can do it in the right way, then you can get buy in and we can create a better program in the end, but we’re going to have to live with the bumps.
Carlos Lopez: That’s just life, right. You’ve got to take the good with the bad. And that’s where I’m trying to stay optimistic. Just hang in there. We never thought we’d even be 35th or whatever it was medical. So you know what, God bless me. Let’s just keep on riding. We’ve got to just do it. Take the nitty gritty with it.
Tim Pickett: Oh, go ahead.
Carlos Lopez: I was just going to say that’s why I was excited about the five years from now to see our case study with… I was excited to see where the opioid drop is and not just the drop but the deaths, there’s people dying out here now, because of this thing.
Tim Pickett: Hundreds still.
Carlos Lopez: It’s not a joke. It’s like being more than traffic accidents, almost.
Tim Pickett: I don’t know the comparison, but I think there were 463 opioid deaths in 2018.
Carlos Lopez: Oh, God.
Tim Pickett: Was the latest number.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, that’s awful.
Tim Pickett: That’s a lot.
Carlos Lopez: It’s one too many.
Chris Holifield: Can listeners, how can they connect with you? What’s your Instagram again?
Carlos Lopez: Oh yeah, it’s just my name. So @C_a_r_l_o_s_Lopez.
Chris Holifield: Any spaces or anything?
Carlos Lopez: I do have. I have underscore. So it’s a little complicated. It’s C_A_R_L_O_S and then Lopez, L-O-P-E-Z. I know that’s-
Chris Holifield: Is Lopez underscored?
Carlos Lopez: No, it’s one solid. L-O-P-E-Z.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Carlos Lopez: So just Carlos is underscored.
Tim Pickett: So if you’re looking for Carlos, you can go to utahmarijuana.org Instagram and just look to the comments, you’ll find him.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, usually-
Tim Pickett: That’s probably the easiest way to find him.
Chris Holifield: No, but I love it. I love how active you are on there, man.
Carlos Lopez: I appreciate that.
Tim Pickett: It’s important for us to keep people engaged. And we really appreciate it. We really do.
Carlos Lopez: Well, thank you guys. That means a lot.
Chris Holifield: You bet.
Carlos Lopez: Because I love you guys.
Chris Holifield: Thanks, man.
Carlos Lopez: Watching your show, this is a beauty on cannabis. I never would have reached these relationships of, even being able to sit here and do this. I’m just, that’s what I’m saying, I’m very grateful for this medicine and our program.
Chris Holifield: We’re grateful, too.
Carlos Lopez: And you guys, like the platform. This is amazing. You make it seem like you said, it’s legitimized and it’s respectable, you guys are professional about what you do and the way you go about it and the way you educate patients and keep us knowledged. And in the know of the laws. I love it. I can’t get enough of it. I just want to learn more. I appreciate you guys. Like it really means a lot to me. Thank you.
Chris Holifield: Perfect place to end the show, I think.
Tim Pickett: Absolutely.
Chris Holifield: Thank you again, for coming and recording with us. I can’t urge people enough to go follow you on Instagram, connect with you, send you a message. Send Carlos a message, say, “Hey, I heard you on I Am Salt Lake.” Not I Am Salt Lake, that’s my other…. Say, “I heard you on Utah In The Weeds.” That’s my other podcast.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Listen to that podcast, too.
Tim Pickett: You’ve been doing that one a long time. Eight and a half years.
Chris Holifield: Something like that.
Carlos Lopez: I need to get on that one more. I’ll be honest with you. I haven’t as much.
Chris Holifield: That’s how I met Tim.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, when you’re in to the cannabis scene, you’ve got a cannabis podcast here. When you’re into the Salt Lake scene, the Utah scene, you’ve got I Am Salt Lake. We’ve got it all covered here. We’re local, Chris is local.
Carlos Lopez: I love it.
Chris Holifield: Anything else you want to add, Tim?
Tim Pickett: No. This has been fun, thanks Carlos. I appreciate you coming on.
Chris Holifield: Go to utahmarijuana.org/podcast is where you listen to all the previous podcasts, we should be in all the podcast apps. If we’re not in a podcast app that you use, reach out to Tim or myself and I will try my hardest to get us in there. Leave us a review in iTunes if you have it. I’m trying to think what else there is to say, any other…? Utahmarijuana.org is the hub.
Tim Pickett: That’s the hub and really it has the episodes as early as you can find them anywhere, right?
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: So all right guys, stay safe out there.
Chris and Tim’s guest, Brent, was the first employee brought on to help get Wasatch extraction up and running. His initial experience was a learn-as-you-go type of thing. Once they got up and running and brought more employees on board, Brent took the role of Lab Director.
Wasatch Extraction started in the hemp market; they are now in the medical market as well. Their biggest concern on the medical side is the lack of biomass. They do very little hemp right now because the money isn’t there. In order to expand the medical side of things, they are in the process of bringing in new equipment that will allow them to tap the rosin market.
In addition to having an extraction license, the company also has a tier 1 processing license. That enables them to make a number of finished products, including vaping carts. Wasatch Extraction makes their own branded carts as well as white label products for other brands.
Vape carts are the company’s bestseller right now. Brent called them ‘low hanging fruit’ because they are easy to make and use. However, Wasatch Extraction would really like to get into more concentrates. That’s where rosin comes in. No one is offering it in Utah right now.
Wasatch Extraction is looking to grow significantly in the next few years. But again, access to product is the main hindrance. Brent, Chris, and Tim all agreed that there needs to be a greater access on growing in Utah. More plants in the ground is the only way to solve the supply problem.
Episode 53 of Utah in the Weeds is a fascinating discussion for anyone interested in the happenings at a typical extraction and processing operation. This episode is jampacked with information you may not know.
Follow the podcast at UtahMarijuana.org, or leave us a message at (385) 215-9557.
Check out Chris Holifield’s other podcast, I am Salt Lake.
Subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Discover Marijuana.
Chris Holifield:
All right. Let’s welcome everybody out today to episode 53 of Utah in the Weeds. My name’s Chris Holifield.
Tim Pickett:
And I’m Tim Pickett, a QMP in Utah and a medical cannabis expert, so to speak. Pretty excited about the interview today Chris, with an extractor in Utah.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. Brent, the Lab Director at Wasatch Extraction. And for people that don’t know, in Wasatch Extraction, they make all the carts here in Utah pretty much. Right? I don’t think there’s any place else that makes carts in Utah.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I mean, I think there’s a couple of other vertically integrated places that are making up their own carts. Like I think Dragonfly does, or Zion does. When you have these processors, they have to get product from Tryke, or from one of the other growers. And then they process it into these products that we love and they make, Wasatch Extraction is making some medicine that is really top-notch.
Chris Holifield:
And then they’re doing the Fruit of Life carts as well. So we talk a little bit about that in this conversation, which was really cool to kind of put some of the pieces together.
Tim Pickett:
Right? Just another interview to put the pieces together, to get to know all of the different brands in Utah, all of the different processes that you’re getting your medicine. And if you’re interested in becoming a patient in Utah, like knowing essentially seed to sale. Right? Where your medicine comes from, which is something you can’t do with normal pharmaceuticals. So it’s a good educational and cultural interview, I thought.
Chris Holifield:
Also I want to mention Tim. I know we didn’t talk about this before we started recording, but I want to make a little send out or a request to people. If you know, of any 420 events going on, to send that into Tim or I. I know you and I we’re going to collect some of the events and whatnot and talk about it next week on the podcast, but let’s… Hey, if anybody knows of any, reach out to Tim or myself. Let us know, so we can talk about it on the podcast as well.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Stay tuned, next week we’ll have all of those local events, we’ll have details about what’s going on at the different pharmacies and the big events. It’s a fun month. It’s not only a recreational holiday, or an adult use holiday, but I think that it’s becoming a big deal, even nationwide to celebrate the cannabis movement in medical or adult use, whatever you’re into.
Chris Holifield:
And I’m trying to think, there was something… Oh, utahmarijuana.org/podcast. Go listen to all the episodes there. I’m sure there’s a couple that you haven’t listened to. So go check them out, make sure you’re subscribed in whatever app you listen to podcasts in. Should we get into the podcast, or the interview?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Let’s do.
Chris Holifield:
Tim, anything else want to talk about?
Tim Pickett:
Nope, let’s get into it.
Chris Holifield:
All right. Here’s that with Brent, from Wasatch Extraction. Enjoy. Well, let’s start with Wasatch Extraction, man. How did you get involved with Wasatch Extraction?
Brent:
Well, the owner, or one of the owners Steve [Gasdes 00:03:13], me and him go way back to high school. So we were just buddies causing trouble back in the day and he got the opportunity to get the license. He wanted to get a grill and a dispensary license as well, but we got the extraction license. So we started there and then I had some experience in the cannabis industry, but just a little bit. And so he was like, “Hey, do you want to help me start this thing up?” So I jumped on board and super grateful.
Chris Holifield:
And you’re the lab director there, right?
Brent:
Lab director.
Chris Holifield:
So what exactly is that like, what’s your day to day? What are you doing there?
Brent:
Right. Well, basically I was employee number one coming on and I was there for myself for like the first nine months. The first year we were just doing CBD. And I hadn’t ever done CO2 extraction or used a rotovap or a short path before. So it was really, a little bit intimidating coming on because this equipment shows up and you’re like, “Oh man, that might be out of my league.” But it’s just like anything else, you do it a hundred times and you’re like, “Oh I get it.”
Brent:
So just basically, and then once we started to pick up a little more, we got some employees on board. Basically, I mostly run the post-processing after the initial extraction, I guess I run the CO2 machines, but generally we’re doing ethanol right now. So we have Tyson and Gareth doing ethanol for us. And then I’m upstairs in the upper lab doing the rotovap, or the winterizing ,or short path, or I do some HPLC stuff as well.
Chris Holifield:
A lot of things going over my head right here.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I followed you to ethanol. Right?
Brent:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
I know what that is. And I know it goes away when the product comes out the door.
Brent:
Yes.
Tim Pickett:
Right.
Brent:
If you’re doing it right. It does. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
But then you’re talking about, is this all still hemp CBD processing, or now you’re in the medical market.
Brent:
We’re in the medical market. Yep. We’re lucky enough to get that license as well. And then partner with some farmers or I guess you can be partners with the farmers.
Chris Holifield:
License?. What license, like grow license or just a processing-
Brent:
No, just the extraction license.
Chris Holifield:
Extraction license.
Brent:
But you have to be GMP certified and all that stuff to do medical marijuana. And then you got to go through, because I think we’re the only facility in the state that actually can do both CBD and THC under the same roof. But we did have to go through certain precautions to make sure there was no cross-contamination and stuff like that. Gave that plan to the state, have it approved. But the first year we were just doing CBD. So it was great for me because I got to really dial everything in. And now that we’re doing marijuana, we’re not really doing much CBD right now because the price per liters drop so much, it’s really not worth the labor and the chemicals and stuff like that. So we’ve shifted full-time over to THC. But it has slowed the pace quite a bit because as you know, there’s a lack of-
Tim Pickett:
Like product biomass-
Brent:
Flower and biomass and stuff like that in the state right now.
Tim Pickett:
Describe that a little bit so that people understand, because there are companies like Wholesome, who have a license to go all the way from seed to sale. Right?
Brent:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim Pickett:
And there are some companies who just have grow licenses and then they have to find other people. So where are you getting the product?
Brent:
Right. Right now we are mostly getting it from Tryke right now, but they’re so spread thin. They can only give us so much. We were working with Oakbridge quite a bit to get stuff from them. And they, I haven’t been to many facilities, but they have a massive facility going up North. And so they’ve basically decided to focus on just going all the biomass and extraction. So they aren’t really doing too much smokable. So they, and Tyler really knows what he’s doing, I don’t know if you know about Oakbridge, but they have nurseries and stuff like that. He grew up just growing things. So he has a green thumb. Obviously marijuana is very different, so it takes a while to understand its particular needs and stuff like that. They are cranking out a ton of biomass, but I think they’re trying to start an extraction themselves. So we’ve shifted to, Tri-C basically, long story short.
Chris Holifield:
I want to back up a little bit, you were mentioning how you had prior experience with cannabis before getting into this. Earlier in the conversation, do you care to share anything about that? Like, was it here in Utah or out of state or were you growing or what were you doing —
Brent:
It was in California, just some small scale grows. Nothing crazy. And then I was doing bubble hash for the shops out there.
Chris Holifield:
Bubble hash?
Brent:
Small time though. So Bubble hash, it’s making a comeback, which I love. It’s a solventless extraction, so basically you just freeze the biomass, tumble around in some ice water, knock all the trichomes free, and some other compounds and stuff like that and throw it through a series of bags. And you’re basically sifting through gold to find the particular grade that you’re looking for.
Chris Holifield:
That’s wonderful.
Tim Pickett:
That’s pretty cool, but solventless.
Brent:
That’s what I love about it. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
That’s your favorite type of extraction or is there a place for everything?
Brent:
It’s not my favorite to do because it’s very manual, labor intensive because you’re bouncing bags. But it’s my favorite…
Tim Pickett:
Like end product.
Brent:
Yes. Well actually my favorite’s live rosin. Live rosin is basically just a heated press. And so you can put flower in there, but you’re not going to get a whole lot out for each press. But if you put bubble hash in there, it’s going squeeze it, ooze out, just tons of live rosin, that’s my favorite stuff to use, I guess. And we’re ordering all the equipment for that very soon. So we’ll be bringing that to the patients. Nobody here in Utah is doing it at the moment that I’m aware of.
Tim Pickett:
No, there’s no live rosin anywhere.
Brent:
No.
Tim Pickett:
Trust me. We would know.
Brent:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
Everybody would know.
Brent:
Yep. Yep.
Tim Pickett:
There’s been a little bit of dry or hash, is it hash resin?
Brent:
Like bubble hash or?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Brent:
Yeah. They call it bubble hash because if you do it right, and you hold a lighter up to it, it bubbles and sizzles.
Tim Pickett:
Interesting.
Brent:
Yeah. Or if not, it just burns like a piece of charcoal. Like plant matter in there and stuff like that.
Chris Holifield:
I love talking about stuff like that because a lot of times you hear it out and about right, tut you’re like, “I don’t know what this means.” A lot of the terminology and I know a lot of people that listen to this are newbies when it comes to cannabis. So it’s like, I want to educate them when it comes to the different, different terms and words. So they’re not intimidated when they’re going into the pharmacies because I know how it is a lot of times. I mean, it wasn’t even for me, the first time I ever went into my first legal dispensary in Colorado. Man, I was so intimidated. I was like, “I don’t know if I know all the right lingo here.”
Brent:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
Lingo. You don’t know if you’re allowed to talk to somebody. I need to just stay quiet. Or it’s you stand in line?
Chris Holifield:
Yeah
Brent:
We used to go into head shops. And if you said the wrong language…
Chris Holifield:
You know, get out of here.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. They be like, “You’re out for this.”. Right.
Chris Holifield:
This is for smoking tobacco.
Brent:
Exactly.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, it is. Yeah. Maybe we’re peoples safe place to learn about things like that.
Chris Holifield:
I wanted to, yeah.
Brent:
Yeah. People need them.
Tim Pickett:
They really do.
Brent:
Absolutely.
Tim Pickett:
Okay. Your focus, what’s Wasatch Extraction doing mostly now, as far as the extraction process and making products, labeling, getting it out the door?
Brent:
So not only do we have the extraction license, but we also have a tier one processing license, which allows us to formulate and package. That gives us the ability to mix the distillate, or whatever that end product is. Not end product, but an end extraction product, mix it into tinctures, formulate in the lotions or put it into vape cartridges, add terps if you want. Stuff like that, and then package. So basically box and label.
Tim Pickett:
I can bring you a cannabis plant that’s dried and ready and tested. And then you can take that plant and make it into pretty much whatever I need.
Brent:
Absolutely.
Tim Pickett:
That’s kind of what Wasatch Extraction is all about.
Brent:
Yeah. We bridge a lot of gaps because like you were saying earlier, you have the farmers or the people to grow, licensed in the dispensary’s, but we’re the people that are the go-between. I believe True North got it, tier one as well. And they’re trying to keep it everything pretty much in-house. Other brands are actually loving our distillate so much that they’re basically co-branding.
Tim Pickett:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. White label, or co-branding and stuff like that. They bring their recipe to you and then they say, “Hey, make this recipe, put our label on it.”
Brent:
Exactly.
Tim Pickett:
I see.
Brent:
And actually they love our recipe so much. They’re like, “Put that in here and we’ll tweak it a little bit to make it ours.” Because, everybody wants their own personal touch on everything, which is great. And then yeah, we put it into their cartridges and it goes out and what people would know…
Chris Holifield:
Kind of like, we’re in the Fruit of Life shop, for example, you fill their carts up. Right? Is that kind of…
Brent:
Well actually the Fruit is Life is a brand.
Chris Holifield:
Of Wasatch Extraction.
Brent:
Yes. It’s our own brand. Yeah.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. I got you.
Tim Pickett:
Okay. That even adds another layer to it. So you can work for other process or other growers and process their product like Tryke and then get their stuff out and then you could do your own and brand it in Fruit of Life and put that out.
Brent:
Exactly. So we can actually buy biomass or plant matter or flower from the growers and we’re able to do our own brand from that, which is super amazing.
Tim Pickett:
That’s cool. And it makes it kind of complicated in the system because there’s a lot of those, there’s a lot of brands, even in the small marketplace that we have, it seems like there’s a lot of brands and then tracing that product back to the processor and then back to who actually grew the flower. I think a lot of people are interested in that and knowing where their stuff comes from?
Brent:
100%. Yeah. There’s a lot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes that people are very unaware of. And some people, they want to know exactly where this came from, and source, all that stuff, which I like too. I like to kind of know where my stuff’s coming from, because there’s basically the facade that the packaging labeling isn’t. I started to realize this once I got into this industry like, “I don’t know, Doritos, they package for lots of other people, or they give their different recipes to other brands.” There’s these major processing facilities that you can go to with your recipe and say, “Hey, I want to make a product. Will you white label it for me?” And so it’s interesting.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. It’s like that in medical marijuana.
Brent:
Yeah. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
What’s your favorite product or what seems to be the favorite product that you guys make right now? Do you think you have one?
Brent:
Yeah. The vape cartridges are the number one selling for sure.
Chris Holifield:
So you’re pretty much making everybody’s vape carts cartridges, no?
Brent:
No. That’s a very recent development that certain people have come to us and said, “Hey, we want to use your distillate and our vape cartridge.” There’s a lot of brands out there somehow making their own. They must have obviously a processing license.
Chris Holifield:
Okay.
Brent:
And I know other people are trying to get in and some people are working under our license. So they have to be at our facility. Certain brands come in, the Hygge. I think it’s Hygge, I’m so-
Chris Holifield:
Those little chews, the cubes.
Brent:
They are the economy king right now. They’re everywhere. And they were working out of our facility till just about a month ago.
Chris Holifield:
So you were processing those.
Brent:
Yeah. They were using our distillate and…
Chris Holifield:
Where did they go?
Brent:
That was Oakbridge as well. So they moved up, they finally built that part of their facility and moved down on up.
Chris Holifield:
Very cool.
Brent:
Yeah.
Chris Holifield:
Do you have a personal relationship with cannabis or, I mean, we don’t need to talk about that if you’d rather not, I was just curious from a personal relationship. I mean, if you’re a medical patient at all, or if anything like that?
Brent:
Not currently one here in the state of Utah, I have done previously in other States, but I mean I’ve loved the benefits of cannabis from an early age, junior high. And I definitely do not recommend younger people using cannabis early on. Wait till you’re more developed to do those things. I just experienced a lot of benefits personally. And I was like, “This thing can’t be bad, it does so many amazing things for me.” And so I’ve always just kind of been drawn to it and found work in the industries somehow. And I just love it.
Chris Holifield:
Very cool.
Tim Pickett:
That’s pretty cool. I think you fill in some of the gaps that we need to know about this whole system in Utah. Did any of the legal changes? Do you follow any of this that have changed in like the hemp laws, or the medical marijuana laws? Is anything going to change for you in 2021, that was different or is everything was pretty well set last year with the rules and not a ton has changed with the processing?
Brent:
To my knowledge, not a whole lot changed other than, I guess originally, extraction processes like BHO, we’re going to be off the-
Chris Holifield:
BHO — what is that?
Brent:
Butane extraction.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Brent:
Or even bubble hash, I hear originally was not going to be possible. But those have come through, but that was last year in 2020.
Tim Pickett:
Oh yeah. That was the concentrates when they allowed. So originally, patients were not going to be allowed to access concentrates until they failed two other methods.
Brent:
Right.
Chris Holifield:
Fail two other methods of…
Brent:
Of ingestion.
Chris Holifield:
Of cannabis?
Tim Pickett:
So you could get flower, you could get vape carts, but you had to do that. And then let’s say your 90 day renewal, you were going to have to go back to your provider and say, “Hey, this is not working for me. I need access to concentrates.” And they changed that law right before things even got really going, to just allow people to work with their medical provider and decide what works best for them originally and just have access from day one. And that probably affected the processors a bit, because concentrates… Yeah. I mean, now it seems like there’s going to be a better market for concentrates and people will have more options. Right?
Brent:
Absolutely. And I know all the patients I’m asking for it, on the social medias and stuff like that, we’ve been asking like, “Hey, what do you guys need? What do you guys want?” Everybody’s like, “We want live rosin and we want bubble hash, or shatter or whatever” So we’d love to be able to offer that, so that’s cool.
Chris Holifield:
What has been a hold up with live rosin and whatnot?
Tim Pickett:
I’ve heard, it’s just the biomass. It’s the fact that you can’t get enough raw materials to make more than just vape carts. Right?
Brent:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
Vape cart sell, they’re selling out. They’re easy to make or, however hard they are to make, that’s all you have product to make,
Brent:
Right. That’s kind of the low hanging fruit. It’s a great delivery method because it’s easy for people, you just push a button, it tastes good, you get your medication. As you get to know cannabis a little better, you start looking for the purest methods and just the more enjoyable methods that give you the desired result.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. And that ends up being more concentrates and more availability. I don’t know, what’s your experience with concentrates?
Chris Holifield:
Zero.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, mine too. I mean, I’ve experienced live rosin.
Chris Holifield:
So have I. I have experienced that.
Tim Pickett:
I will say from my experience, my personal experience, it is a different experience and it’s pretty amazing. The only way to describe it is like in something that you say or that people would understand was be the difference between the nicest bottle of wine you’ve ever drank and Three-Buck Chuck from Trader Joe’s.
Brent:
Right.
Chris Holifield:
You gave a good example probably here.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, there’s something about that, right? The table wine is fine and that’s good for everyday use it. It’s tasty, but there is just something about like, you don’t know what you’re experiencing until you drink that wine. And you’re like, “Oh wow, this is a lot better. I know why this is worth money.”
Brent:
Everything you want basically, and nothing you don’t want, flower itself has so many compounds going on in it. And as you extract things, you start to isolate and concentrate certain compounds, but you get rid of a lot of the other beneficial things like terpenes. You can add natural or synthetic food grade terpenes to your products. But I mean, as you were pointing to earlier, it’s a different experience of the live rosin. It’s just a slightly different experience than smoking flower or vaporizing flower. I personally love to vaporize flower because you get the full spectrum, basically. Nothing’s then extracted out, and also it’s solvent less. So it’s just pure, has all the flavor and it’s very potent. So it’s great experience.
Tim Pickett:
And I would say that like a live rosin for a medical patient, when you get into the concentrates, this is something that we don’t recommend people use all the time. It’s really from my medical standpoint.
Chris Holifield:
Why wouldn’t you want to use it all the time?
Tim Pickett:
Because, one, it’s expensive.
Chris Holifield:
Okay.
Tim Pickett:
Just like simple. Simply it’s going to be more expensive than it is to buy flower and it’s stronger. And so reserving that for your really bad days, or the few days after chemo, this is the type of thing that’s best for, in my opinion. And if you can use it in those settings, then it maintains its effectiveness more. And it’s kind of special place in the medical marijuana world. And from an adult use standpoint, it kind of is that same thing. You’re reserving it for those special occasions. It’s just like my analogy with the bottle of wine. I mean, you’re not going to open a hundred dollars bottle of wine every day. Right?
Brent:
Unless you can afford it.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, I guess if you can afford it, I’m not supposed to be…
Brent:
I’m coming to your house.
Tim Pickett:
But there may be a time and a place for that sort of thing. And I like your discussion about the flower. Here you are, you work for an extractor. Right? But I mean, some of the purest form of using cannabis is yeah, putting it right at 385 degrees and putting the old volcano at 385 and filing up a bag.
Chris Holifield:
And light and you hit the button and go.
Brent:
I love it.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Brent:
You know, it’s all about finding where your tolerance is, and managing it to your benefit, like you were saying. If you’re doing this for pain, you don’t want to just have your tolerance for the roof, because you’ll be buying so much. And when you use it, it’s not going to have the same effects.
Tim Pickett:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Brent:
So you’re right. I mean, there’s a lot of different products out there and you got to figure out which one your body responds to for what.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. How many vape carts do you think you guys make a day?
Brent:
Oh man. Well…
Tim Pickett:
I mean, we’re talking hundreds.
Brent:
Well, so right now we’re actually hand filling each one.
Chris Holifield:
You’re kidding.
Tim Pickett:
Oh my Gosh.
Brent:
And hand topping each one.
Chris Holifield:
Okay. Let’s hear more about that.
Brent:
We are buying a…
Chris Holifield:
Like Tupperware pitcher?
Tim Pickett:
You’re like pouring…
Brent:
It’s like a glue gun with a heat, and you just basically —
Tim Pickett:
It’s like hot glue.
Brent:
Yeah. And we’ve got a little assembly line. We can crank out. I think our record might be like 1200 for the day. And that’s a very small crew. That’s as crew of three.
Chris Holifield:
You’re not doing like any nicotine carts, you’re doing all, all cannabis-related CBD, THC, medical. No nicotine.
Tim Pickett:
What are they mixing it with? This is an oil form, you’ve extracted all of the THC out of the plant, which is kind of a fatty molecule. It’s a fatty, oily substance. How do you describe the THC oil?
Brent:
It’s very sticky, but it looks like an oil that acts, I guess it is an oil, but it’s like, man, really high potency THC distillate turns to like jolly rancher almost really quick.
Tim Pickett:
Okay. Yeah. It almost crystallizes. So you have to mix it with something that will allow it to stay a viscous form.
Brent:
So CBD crystallizes which is why a lot of people aren’t putting it into carts. And if you find one, it definitely has some other stuff in there with it to keep it in solution. THC, we don’t have to do that necessarily because it doesn’t crystallize. So it just has to be hot when you put it in there. And then the heat element on the vape cart will actually heat it up and allow it to flow.
Tim Pickett:
So you don’t need to add anything to the THC oil. You can just put straight THC oil, like 90 something percent into the vape cart.
Brent:
You can. I would prefer that, but everybody wants things to taste delicious these days.
Tim Pickett:
It will taste good.
Brent:
Yeah. They want their cannabis that tastes like Skittles or something. So I prefer the earthy taste. And the thing is when you extract, you extract out a lot of those terpenes and so you’re going to get an end result that doesn’t taste like what you think it might, which is why, and it kind of blew my mind when I started doing this. I’m sure everybody’s adding terps. Whether it’s marijuana terps or synthesized terps.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. And this is what makes your, this is what makes it taste a little lemony or citrusy, or it makes it taste a little bit more well. And then you can design, like if you buy a Jack Herer vape cart, that’s not saying that it came from that plant, it’s meaning that the terpene profile of what that strain was, what the cultivar was, is what they put back in a recipe form in that. Super Sour Diesel is a very common one. There’s a lot of them.
Brent:
Oh yeah. And the thing is like, terpenes, they’re part of the beneficial effects. Certain terpenes are what’s going to give you that pain relief or other effects. And so a lot of people, or the connoisseurs, or whatever are looking for certain strains because they include these terpenes. And so that’s definitely, I think where the market eventually will be moved to, is like, what effects do I need? Or what benefits do I need and which strains or terpenes give me those? And you’ll actually start looking for those rather than just the flavor.
Tim Pickett:
And I think you’re starting to see that people are looking for those more than they’re looking for sativa/indica. You don’t go in there and say, “Well, one day.” I think a lot of people still do, but we move towards a time when you’re going to the dispensary or the pharmacy. And you’ll say, “Hey, I need something with beta caryophyllene and limonene. These are the two terps that I think are, are better for me. And so do you have something that has those.” Instead of going in and saying, “I need something that’s an upper or that’s good for this or down.” Right? You’ll get a little more dialed as to what specifically works. And that can be a lot of terpenes. So do they add terpenes? Is that make it more viscous?
Brent:
It does.
Tim Pickett:
Because the terpenes come in a more liquid form.
Brent:
Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. Some people are adding 10% or more terpenes, which is a lot. And again, if they’re marijuana grade terpenes, that might be highly beneficial. You definitely want to add marijuana terpenes over lab synthesized food grade terpenes, but in a way terpenes are terpenes, because the same, like you were saying limonene, you’re gonna find that in limes.
Tim Pickett:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Brent:
It’s the same actual compound or terpene, it’s also found in this plant too.
Chris Holifield:
Learn something every time I talk on it, or we record podcasts-
Tim Pickett:
We record this podcasts. I like this-
Chris Holifield:
Because I still find the indica-sativa thing interesting because I find it any sativa, way too much anxiety, so I always have to go to indica. But then people say that, that doesn’t matter.
Tim Pickett:
What does it smell like?
Chris Holifield:
What does it smell like? I have even no idea.
Tim Pickett:
Do you find that there’s a smell to the indica that you’re finding? Does the cannabis you use, tend to taste similar, like when you buy indica and I’ll bet over time…
Chris Holifield:
I think so. I guess I just don’t pay attention to that part of it.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. And I’ll bet over time, your cannabis smells more earthy, and you’re using more indica type terpenes, if that works for you. And you’re staying away from terpenes that are more associated with sativa.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. Just because I find the sativa ones give me a lot more anxiety.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Rebound headaches come with those sativa terpenes. Things like that.
Brent:
Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you know a lot about the terpenes.
Tim Pickett:
Well, we’re just learning so much more about them and trying to…
Brent:
Right. Which is great about you guys do. You guys get to sit down with people and learn about it all and like share with everybody. It’s super cool.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. It’s been a lot for everybody really, because I think a lot of people, especially here in Utah, it’s like the Wild West when it comes to the knowledge because, the facilities, like the pharmacies and whatnot, to go purchase the items, but without podcasts like this or Salt Baked City, outlets like that, there’s no way to learn about any of these stuff.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. If nobody talks to you, then no one knows about extraction and nobody knows how to fill a vape cart. Like what goes on. Right? We all watched the YouTube video of how this is made. Right.? My kids are always into that.
Brent:
Oh yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Right. We want to go to the farm. We want to watch it. We want to listen to it. And there is no way to know about that stuff in cannabis world, in the medical marijuana world without talking about it, because there’s no advertising. So we just all have to go out, do it without, or teach other.
Brent:
Like you said, it’s you guys and Salt Baked City, those guys that are actually the interface between the patients and the extractions, dispensaries and the growers and all that stuff.
Chris Holifield:
You were saying, you make 1200 carts on your best day or one day or something. Right?
Brent:
About 1,200. We might have done a little more.
Chris Holifield:
So we’re recording, we’re across the street from Beehive, for example, right?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Beehive Farmacy, I’m looking at their front door.
Chris Holifield:
How many vape carts you think they sell in a day? I mean, because there’s not that many pharmacies. If you could make that many in one day, I mean, are you busy every day?
Brent:
If we have the material to extract, but once that’s there, and the testing is there, it’s fill, fill, fill, fill, fill, because there are so many orders we just can’t meet because there’s a lack of….
Tim Pickett:
Like product, so…
Chris Holifield:
I mean that blows in a way that if you’re making now, if 1200 is the most and you’ve made that much and you’re still can’t even keep up. It makes me wonder, how much could this state really handle-
Tim Pickett:
Well if there’s 25,000 patients now. And everybody’s doing a couple of hundred transactions a day. Of the eight pharmacies that are open now, and there’re times times all of that buy, how many people buy vape carts every time they go, buy one once every… Maybe everybody, maybe there’s 25,000 vape carts being sold a month.
Brent:
Probably more. Yeah,
Tim Pickett:
This is a small… And Utah’s a super small market.
Brent:
Oh yeah.
Tim Pickett:
For this.
Brent:
Yeah. Right now it is.
Chris Holifield:
So you think even Wasatch Extraction is making more than 25,000 carts in a month.
Tim Pickett:
No, because you’d be making a thousand carts every day, but across the marketplace…
Brent:
For a while there, we were everyday strong making carts. We are in the process of looking for automatic filler, but there are some that have major issues. And so you really got to do your research and it’d be awesome to pull a lever, and in 30 seconds do a hundred carts and then take the dye, move it over to the capper and cap them. We’re not quite there yet, because again, we just don’t have the biomass to justify that purchase.
Tim Pickett:
Right. You just you’d fill all your carts in two days and then you’d be out of work for two weeks till you get more.
Brent:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
We have got to get more people putting plants in the ground in this state or this has never been going to-
Chris Holifield:
Again, I know we talk about this a lot, but when you probably told me what this is, Tim. But is that really all we need, is people to put plants in the ground or what. We have the growers but it is not growing or what?
Tim Pickett:
The growers aren’t growing. I mean, even the growers with licenses, there’s only a fraction. Less than half the growers that have licenses or enough plants in the ground to do this.
Brent:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
But it was all it, I’m not blaming the growers.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. But by now though, we should have plenty of time to get this ball going.
Tim Pickett:
I’m just saying that there are so many things along that pathway, along that supply chain. The small tweaks in the beginning.
Brent:
I’m pretty sure you guys have heard about the gerrymandering that went on with all the license being handed out. And I think there was some corruption in there. There’s been some investigating and there’s been found to be corruption.
Tim Pickett:
Yes. Not really publicized.
Brent:
These licenses were given to people that had no clue what they’re doing.
Tim Pickett:
Totally agree with this.
Brent:
Most of them.
Chris Holifield:
I’ve read about it in the paper, but we’ve never really talked about it on the podcast.
Tim Pickett:
Because nobody will come on. I’ve invited a few of these people on our podcast, I’ve decided not… So far, we haven’t named names of the people that I’ve invited on, but they don’t respond.
Chris Holifield:
Is it just because they don’t have the knowledge of growing. Is that really what it is? They get these licenses and then they don’t even know how to grow.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I mean, they were in on the permitting process and they got their applications approved. There was actually growers that didn’t even plan on growing and were forced by the state to start to grow. The state went to them and said, “Okay, when are you going to grow?” And they were like, “Well, we’re just going to wait maybe a couple of years.” And the state had to tell them, “No, you’ve got to grow. This is part of why we give you a license.”
Chris Holifield:
Even though they rejected other people, that probably would have been growing right away.
Tim Pickett:
Well, sure. And you know what? We all complain, we don’t all complain. I don’t complain about Tryke but there’s plenty of complaints about Tryke in the marketplace, but God bless them. They got there.
Chris Holifield:
They got supply out there.
Tim Pickett:
They got supply out there, and they have been really great at getting people flower.
Chris Holifield:
And some of it is really good.
Tim Pickett:
Yes. Some of it is really good. And I think Zion has really stepped up their production, and they’ve got a lot more product going out. And other than those two, well who’s the other one you were talking about Riverside,
Brent:
Oakbridge.
Tim Pickett:
Oakbridge.
Brent:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim Pickett:
Right. And how much grow we need. If somebody is out there listening from Oakbridge, we want to have you on the podcast,
Chris Holifield:
Please, please reach out to Tim or myself.
Tim Pickett:
Because we need more growers to come out and tell the story. It’s a gap in our knowledge, other than like Zion and Tryke.
Brent:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
We know them and we know Wholesome. We know their story, and we know their process of trying to get their grow going. But other than that, I don’t really know.
Brent:
It’s going to be tough because they literally have to be willing to like set their ego aside and admit to the fact that they’re trying to learn. They don’t know how currently, and they’re trying to learn, which everybody does. I get, it’s a process, but that’s, what’s going on. Only a few people know how to do it. And yeah, you’re right. People do complain about these big companies coming in and taking the market, but they can deliver it, they know what they’re doing.
Tim Pickett:
Right. And we need a delivery. Okay. You know who I forgot that I really feel bad about because I’ve met with them a past couple of weeks, is Dragonfly.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. They got good stuff coming out.
Tim Pickett:
They have great product and they have really tried to do it all in-house and do it in a right way. Like you say, they’ve had to learn all of this stuff as they go, but they brought in really good people in the beginning to help. But Dragonfly stepped up. They had product, they had flower, faster than anybody. So kudos to them too.
Brent:
Absolutely.
Tim Pickett:
They’ve really tried their hardest to get product on the shelf for people.
Brent:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
I liked those guys a lot too.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Brent:
Have you had them in? I know…
Chris Holifield:
The Dragonfly?
Brent:
Yeah.
Chris Holifield:
Oh yeah, episode three.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah Narith. Narith came in episode three. And in fact, we’ve been talking to him about coming on again because it’s their one year anniversary. They actually won one of the best cannabis companies to work for in the nation.
Brent:
Wow.
Tim Pickett:
They’re women owned and minority owned. They do a ton for their employees. They’re a very good place to work. And my experience with Dragonfly now that I know them a little bit better, it does seem likely like to do things in-house, their own. They have a plan. They work hard for sure.
Brent:
Yeah. That woman is a business woman. She knows what she’s doing. And she is a shark. She is a go getter. She gets it done.
Tim Pickett:
She does. Yeah. Hoang.
Brent:
We should bring her on.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I would love to have her on. She has a fascinating story. Her family story. Yeah. And I’ll let her tell it, but definitely she needs to come on because their family story and Dragonfly as a whole has done a lot, I think, for the market and helping things get going.
Chris Holifield:
Where do you see the future of Wasatch Extraction? Just bigger machines pumping out more carts and whatnot, or where do you see this all headed?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Well Like I said, we’re purchasing equipment to get other processes going. We just want a lot of different products going out. We want the live rosin, we want the bubble hash. We want the shatter. Just we want to bring the best to the Utah patients, is really our main goal.
Chris Holifield:
What’s the best way, is there a way that people, that listeners, can find out more about your products or like Fruit of Life, I guess, to find out about the carts and availabilities and stuff, I guess on Instagram, would be the best place.
Brent:
I’ve been slacking on the Instagram, but I do plan on putting more time and energy into that and definitely trying to get back all the messages. So that’s probably the number one place they can interface with us right now. Just send us a direct message on Instagram. We’ll do our best to get back to you guys, we just have a few employees. So a lot of us wear multiple hats. And when it’s time to process, we’re processing. And when it’s time to fill, we’re filling. And then in between, we’re trying to do some social media stuff and stuff like that.
Tim Pickett:
It’s awesome to hear this whole thing.
Chris Holifield:
Do you guys ever need like temp workers or anything? Man, I’m always down to like learn a few things here. Send me a message, say, “Hey Chris, are you busy this weekend?”
Brent:
Do you ever want to come by and take a tour? Let’s have you guys out.
Tim Pickett:
We want to see. Yeah, come and we can post it on our social too. And we can show people how a vape cart’s made.
Brent:
Make sense.
Tim Pickett:
I want to see-
Chris Holifield:
Are you in the Salt Lake here or where?
Brent:
We’re right around the corner.
Chris Holifield:
No kidding.
Brent:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. We’re coming for sure.
Brent:
Pleasure. Let’s do it.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Look for how to make a vape cart video.
Brent:
There you go.
Chris Holifield:
Do you still run into a lot… You probably don’t run into as much. Remember when vape carts got a bad name, they were dirty you know. I mean, they still kind of have a bad name if you get street ones and stuff, but did you deal with much of that on your end or not really?
Brent:
I mean a hundred percent because our number one selling product is a vape cartridge and we were planning on producing that product when all that was going on. And from what I took from everything I learned about that situation was, it was a really quickly diagnosed to a limited source of black market cartridges that were putting, what was it, Vitamin E?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Vitamin E acetate.
Brent:
Exactly.
Tim Pickett:
But there has been some concern that like MCT oil or stuff like that. I mean, are there things that Wasatch has said, “Look, we will not put that in a vape cart because it’s dangerous.”
Brent:
A hundred percent. Yeah. We didn’t even want to mess around with it. We don’t put MCT in our carts. It’s literally pure distillate with very minute amounts of terpenes added to it.
Tim Pickett:
Okay, cool.
Brent:
But it’s pure distillate. Other than that, we didn’t want to mess around with any of that popcorn line junk that was going on.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. So just keep it as clean and as pure as possible.
Brent:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim Pickett:
And I mean, it seems like everybody has gone that direction, whether or not anything else that was being added was totally safe or not.
Brent:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
And that as well, not added at all.
Brent:
Yeah. I mean, people are putting all sorts of crazy stuff in there. And who knows what that turns into once you put it under a temperature. It could turn into a toxic chemical that could be harming you.
Tim Pickett:
That’s how the vitamin E came about. It’s a food grade product. It’s totally okay to ingest, but once you heat it and you inhale it into your lungs, bad news. And it just wasn’t tested for that.
Chris Holifield:
Probably another good reason to get product from somebody like yourself. Product that had been extracted from you, at like beehive or whatnot, because you know, it’s safe.
Tim Pickett:
Don’t you think that’s true too? I mean buying, I’ve never done it, but I’m sure there are cartridges off the black market you could buy.
Brent:
Oh yeah.
Tim Pickett:
That are like, why would you do that? That’s pretty risky.
Chris Holifield:
Hey. I bought an off the black market carts.
Tim Pickett:
Have you?
Chris Holifield:
Well, way before Utah… I mean…
Tim Pickett:
Well, and that’s what you had to do and flower too. Right?
Chris Holifield:
Oh yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Everybody’s buying everything.
Brent:
No. I’m all for complete legalization of all substances, but I’m all for regulation. They need to be safe and they need to be administered the right way. And if something goes wrong, then you can help people. And you don’t have the people leaving their friends on the floor dying because they’re scared of going to jail themselves. Things that are kept on the black market, you’re literally… That money is going to gangs and cartels and stuff like that in big part. Those are the people you’re supporting. And I mean, there’re little guys and stuff like that, but it’s like, “If you guys want to do this right. Do it out in the open, we can all talk about it. We can all do it right.”
Chris Holifield:
And I think that’s happening more and more.
Brent:
A hundred percent. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
It’s been fun having this conversation. I’ve learned a lot today.
Chris Holifield:
Anything more you want to talk about before we wrap this up, or anything more that you wanted to make sure to bring up or…
Brent:
I’m just excited that what’s going on in Utah right now is going on. I thought it would be much further down the line, so it’s just really cool to see it all happening. And I get that it’s baby steps. A lot of people are really frustrated about certain things, but it’s like, “Hey guys, it’s a process.”
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. It takes time. It takes time. I mean, any state, even Colorado took years before it established, yet you can go there and get cheaper products. You can go there and get more product, but they’ve also been around a lot longer and they’ve…
Tim Pickett:
They’ve worked this out. Those thanks Brent.
Chris Holifield:
So give us time. Give us time So go connect with, with you guys and see what you got going on.
Brent:
@TheFruitOfLifeUtah is our Instagram. We do have a Facebook as well, but we’re most active on Instagram, but definitely give us a message. If you guys have anything you are looking for and you want us to produce, please let us know. We’d love to make that happen.
Chris Holifield:
Very cool.
Tim Pickett:
Well cool.
Chris Holifield:
And then utahmarijuana.org/podcast is where you can listen to this podcast and listen to all the back episodes because there’s well over 50 of them up there now.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. There’re episodes there. You can find us on YouTube at Discover Marijuana. All the podcasts are being uploaded. I think we’re more than halfway through uploading all of those. So if that happens to be your method of choice, your delivery method, right?
Chris Holifield:
And then connect with us on social media too Instagram, Facebook, The Whole Nine Yards, shift with utahmarijuana.org, Instagram, whatnot.
Tim Pickett:
And go take a listen to I Am Salt Lake.
Chris Holifield:
Oh yeah, I haven’t talked about that for a few episodes on my other podcast. I Am Salt Lake. Iamsaltlake.com, go listen that. Go back to episode 420 with Tim. Tim was on episode 420. That was a fun episode.
Tim Pickett:
That was fun.
Chris Holifield:
That was good with him. That was over a year ago.
Tim Pickett:
Where this whole thing got started.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. So, well thanks a lot, Brent.
Brent:
Thank you guys for having me. It was awesome.
Chris Holifield:
Absolutely. Let’s bring you on down the road.
Tim Pickett:
All right everybody. Stay safe out there.
Utah in the Weeds Episode 52 features a fascinating discussion with two hemp growers named Josh and Derrick. They are friends who met through their shared appreciation of disc golf. Josh’s background is in plant biology where Derrick’s is in the medical side of things. Between them, they run two businesses: Uinta Cannabis in Utah and Utah Hemp Growers based in Nevada.
Uinta Cannabis was the first company formed. During the conversation, the partners revealed that Josh had the idea to become a grower first. After talking to a lot of people but not finding any interest, he met Derrick. They came up with a viable business plan and recruited investors.
The idea for the Utah Hemp Growers marketplace was born out of a desire to sell raw flower. The partners were able to initially do so, but then Utah law changed. Now they have to sell from Nevada. Incidentally, their Nevada company only sells hemp products produced by Utah growers.
Josh and Derrick discussed the many hoops they have to jump through to make their business work. For starters, they had to secure a lease before they could even apply for a license. Since then, they have gone to great lengths to maintain regulatory compliance.
Josh and Derrick also spent time discussing their philosophy of focusing on product experience rather than chasing specific cannabinoid profiles. They explained that experience is more important because people react to profiles differently. It is an interesting approach that Tim and Chris seemed to warm to as they listened to the explanation.
Episode 52 is the latest in a line of interviews from business owners actively on the ground. If you are interested in what it takes to get hemp to market, this is a conversation for you.
More Information Coming Soon…
Follow the podcast at UtahMarijuana.org, or leave us a message at (385) 215-9557.
Check out Chris Holifield’s other podcast, I am Salt Lake.
Subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Discover Marijuana.
Chris:
All right, let’s welcome everybody out today to episode 52 of Utah in the Weeds. How are you doing today, Tim?
Tim:
I’m doing good, Chris. I’m excited for episode 52 in this conversation with these two guys with some military background, right?
Chris:
Yeah, Josh and Derrick from Utah Hemp Growers and Uinta Cannabis. They got a fantastic story of kind of how they started growing hemp and how it kind of evolved into this business selling other Utah hemp farmer’s hemp basically to people here in Utah.
Tim:
Right, created a marketplace because there really wasn’t one for their products and a good discussion about the intricacies, again, of this getting into the hemp growing space and what you have to do to sell smokable flower in Utah and some of those technicalities. I thought the biggest takeaway for me, Chris, with this interview was that sometimes more regulation is better.
Chris:
Yeah, exactly.
Tim:
Right, because there’s clear … There’s a clearer pathway to your business model and to getting people the products that they need.
Chris:
Yeah, no, I think our listeners are going to love this conversation. I was actually really excited after we finished recording. I’m like I can’t wait to get this up for everybody to listen to. So make sure you stick around for the whole conversation. We’re going to get into that here in just a minute. Utahmarijuana.org/podcast is where you can listen to all the podcast episodes. Make sure you’re sharing them with your family and friends because that’s how we get the word out about the podcast. Is there anything going on, anything new, with you, Tim, going on that you need to share with our listeners?
Tim:
I mean here we come up, this will be the first episode in April and 4/20 is going to come up. We have Earth Day. We’ll be announcing some service that we want to do through utahmarijuana.org in the next couple of weeks, so stay tuned for the next episodes on that. Yeah, I mean this is just an exciting month. It’s the celebratory month-
Chris:
Yeah, 4/20, baby!
Tim:
Right.
Chris:
We finally got a 4/20 that we can celebrate and hopefully, I want to have some good episodes this month. Well, we got good episodes every week. So make sure to subscribe-
Tim:
You ought to stay tuned.
Chris:
… in whatever podcast app you listen to. We got a brand new episode every week, 4:20 a.m. on Friday. Let’s get into that episode with Josh and Derrick from Uinta Cannabis and Utah Hemp Growers.
Tim:
All right, enjoy everybody.
Chris:
Thanks for listening.
Tim:
Yeah, I mean here we are with Josh and Derrick. I mean how did you guys meet?
Josh:
Well, I had had the idea for getting a grow started for quite some time and I had gone through quite a few people with the idea, saying, “Hey, I’m thinking about starting up a cannabis grow,” and most people were kind of under that assumption of just like oh yeah, you want to grow free weed, whatever.
Tim:
Right, of course.
Josh:
And so, it was actually-
Tim:
And it was popular like when are you having these conversations?
Josh:
I mean I had approached some family and friends with a legitimate business plan saying, “Hey, I want to get this going,” and there was the initial excitement and then it would fizzle out into nothing-
Tim:
Right.
Josh:
… and so-
Tim:
You’re like wow, this is so great. We’re going to grow cannabis.
Josh:
Yeah, and I’m like okay, but this is a serious business. We’re going to be farmers. It’s work every day and so approaching people, it would just … Like I said, just fizzle out and I actually approached Derrick about it, just in passing conversation at our little disc golf group and he actually showed interest and so we got to talking about it and then we thought up a business plan and started drafting up ideas and started raising capital and just went from there.
Chris:
Wow. How did the two of you even meet?
Josh:
Through common friends.
Chris:
Through common friends? Okay.
Josh:
Yeah, yeah, through kind of a disc golf crew-
Chris:
Disc golf. Man, that’s one of those things I need to learn how to-
Josh:
Oh, it’s fantastic.
Chris:
I hear from everybody about how much fun that game is and I’ve never played.
Tim:
It is a fun game and there is nowhere you have to pay for it, right?
Josh:
No, it’s free.
Tim:
It’s free everywhere you play.
Josh:
Yeah, except-
Tim:
There’s a cool course in West Bountiful that I’ve played at. There used to be a course up at the University of Utah but I think they’ve taken most of it down?
Derrick:
Yeah, that was a free course. Yeah, I think they took a good portion of it down. I play mainly at Creekside. So it’s free-
Tim:
Oh, okay.
Derrick:
It’s beautiful. It’s like one of the first 50 courses in the entire country. It’s great.
Tim:
I think if you just show up and throw a disc, I mean that’s my experience, right?
Josh:
Yeah, you can show up and start on hole four and play through hole nine and walk out, so yeah.
Tim:
Okay, well-
Josh:
I still suck at it.
Tim:
Yeah, well.
Chris:
So, what came first, Uinta cannabis or Utah Hemp Growers. I would imagine Uinta Cannabis came first…
Josh:
Uinta Cannabis came first. That was thought up beginning of 2019 and we got serious about it early fall, raised the capital that we needed from some friends and family and our life savings, both of … Just all the money that we had and so we filed for the permits and-
Chris:
Was it tough to file for all that? I mean were there obstacles? I mean this is Utah we’re talking about here.
Derrick:
Oh, wow, yeah, obstacles.
Josh:
The biggest obstacle by far was that the law required us to have a location locked in before we could file for our grow license, which kind of sucked because-
Chris:
So, you had to have a leased signed? You had to sign a lease almost-
Josh:
Correct.
Chris:
… get into debt and not even be guaranteed-
Josh:
… before we could get a grow license.
Derrick:
Correct.
Tim:
Yeah, how does the landlord look at that? He’s like you’ve signed a lease, you’re hooked.
Josh:
Yeah, so-
Tim:
Whether you get a permit or not.
Josh:
Yeah, exactly. We went through-
Tim:
Right, you’re going to grow potatoes, you’re going to grow cannabis.
Josh:
Yeah, we went through about 15 different locations of people not calling us back-
Derrick:
Flat out saying no.
Josh:
… stringing us along. The second that you mention cannabis, they’re just like nope, we want nothing to do with that.
Derrick:
No, thank you.
Tim:
What year is this that you’re-
Josh:
2019.
Derrick:
Yeah.
Tim:
Oh my gosh, this is so recent.
Josh:
Yes.
Derrick:
Yes.
Tim:
But this is during the time when … And we’ve talked to quite a few guests about this, the time when CBD oil and biomass is still profitable.
Josh:
Yeah, one acre was like $150,000.
Derrick:
Yeah, ridiculous. Yeah.
Tim:
You were right at the end.
Josh:
Green rush.
Tim:
I mean you were getting into the business right before it just-
Josh:
Well, I saw … I saw the writing on the wall-
Tim:
… crushes you.
Josh:
… that everyone’s going to jump in. People are going to jump in that have never touched cannabis and the markets going to-
Tim:
Or never been farmers.
Josh:
… or never been farmers and it’s going to inflate it and crash it and look what happened.
Tim:
Wow.
Josh:
Yeah.
Tim:
What are you thinking about all this, Derrick? When all this is going on, what’s going through your mind? Not the crash, the ramp up into it, we’ll get to that.
Derrick:
Oh, the ramp up into the business?
Tim:
Yeah.
Derrick:
Oh, I was all for it. I was coming from a little bit different perspective of Josh. Josh has the plant biology background under his belt where I had more of the medical side. I came through a … My process of being a personal trainer and a crossfit coach and then going to physical therapy assistance school, getting a degree in exercise science, business management, like so that’s where I came from is seeing people who were utilizing either THC or CBD as a health and wellness mechanism and then I got to see the dichotomy of people using opiates and I don’t think I have to go into the opiate crisis that Utah is going through. So, I saw what those were doing for people and then right around that same time, Josh comes with this idea and it was just kind of an easy transition for me.
Tim:
So, 15 locations and you get one-
Josh:
We finally got one. I mean we have to be completely transparent from the get-go. You can’t like … You can’t say we plan on growing plants and then let them find out it’s cannabis later. So, we finally found a landlord that was willing to work with us, locked in the lease, supplied for the licenses, got the licenses and then started the process of getting our business license and our first crop went in end of 2019 and we were like, let’s do this, it’s great. The only thing that can shut us down is if the world were to stop.
Derrick:
And that’ll never happen, right?
Chris:
Right, I mean that’ll never-
Derrick:
Something happened in 2020 that shut the world down.
Josh:
2020 hits and …
Tim:
Yeah, this is 2019.
Chris:
Now, did you end up getting a place here in Salt Lake? I mean obviously, I don’t need to know the exact location but what area are you in kind of because we’ve chatted with people in Logan, Sandy, I was just kind of curious about where you were at.
Derrick:
Yeah, we’re in South Salt Lake, a little-
Chris:
Okay, okay.
Derrick:
… about 1800 square foot warehouse.
Chris:
Okay, indoor grow?
Tim:
Everything’s indoor?
Josh:
Everything’s indoor.
Tim:
Why do you want to do indoor? Was that a choice?
Josh:
Yeah, I prefer indoor hydroponic or aeroponic just because of the level of control that you have over the plants. It’s a lot harder to do and you have a much, much smaller window than using soil but you have a much higher level of control in like your nutrient uptake and your water uptake and your lights and everything.
Tim:
Right, you can control the spectrum of light, the timing of the light. We’ve been to some of the medical grows and yeah, I mean they control everything.
Josh:
Yeah, I basically used everything that I had learned growing THC and just translated it directly over to help.
Tim:
Where’d you learn that?
Josh:
I spent a year up in Oregon supervising my own grow and making every mistake you can make, like powdery mildew, mites, fungus, gnats, everything, like too much humidity, but I needed that in order to learn what to do and what not to do.
Chris:
We were just talking about Oregon before you guys-
Tim:
I know, we were.
Chris:
… the prices of some marijuana up there.
Tim:
Yeah, the prices of product.
Chris:
An ounce for like what $60 for an ounce?
Tim:
Yeah, grand opening prices, $60 for an ounce, $60 for a top shelf half ounce, I mean it seemed like-
Chris:
Wouldn’t you like those prices to be here?
Tim:
Yeah, right.
Derrick:
That’d be great.
Tim:
Yeah, I mean alternatively, though, you don’t, right? Because you’re in business and like Bob Waters said, “Revenue is fuel.”
Chris:
True.
Josh:
True, there is a way though to be profitable at those prices still.
Tim:
Yeah.
Josh:
And I mean the … I don’t know the total acreage that they said that’s needed to supply the entire United States with THC flower is like less than a 100 acres or something.
Tim:
Yeah, just because-
Chris:
Really?
Tim:
Because the plants grow so well. They don’t require as much water. Because you have an indoor grow, all of your products then, or all of your grow is really based on not biomass per se, it’s on flower?
Josh:
Yeah, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim:
And what you can extract from the flower?
Josh:
Well, we’re not doing any kind of extraction. We actually … We hit up Mountain Valley Botanicals. I call them up and I said, “I need to get some flower extracted.” And he was like, “Okay, how many pounds are you working with?” And I was like, “10.” And he was like, “Oh yeah, our minimum size is like 1000 pounds.” I’m like okay, nevermind.
Derrick:
Okay, let’s go.
Tim:
So, really, you focused in … I’m looking in on your website and you focused then a lot on raw flower.
Josh:
Yup.
Derrick:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim:
But you weren’t able to sell raw flower up until now? How does that work in Utah?
Josh:
Well, so we started Uinta Cannabis to sell flower and flower products to customers and then UDAF axed that with the registration law, basically saying products need to be registered in the state of Utah but we will not register any flower or food additive products, which killed our business plan. And so we went to the drawing board thinking what are we going to do? Is this is end? We’ve been in business for less than a year and-
Tim:
You’ve sunk all your money and everybody you’re close to’s money.
Josh:
Yeah.
Tim:
Into this thing.
Josh:
Yeah. We had tried approaching the pharmacies but before the law changes, there was already enough red tape that it was a little bit cost prohibitive and now, since the law changes, it’s just like almost impossible to get it into the pharmacies and so we thought what do we do? And we came up with the idea of starting up a marketplace, a true marketplace for farms in Utah to get their flower and flower products out to the rest of the nation. Well, we couldn’t start a company in Utah, so we started a company in Nevada, completely 100% separate from Uinta Cannabis to act as a true marketplace and from the beginning, we’re the only farm that’s listed on it and we were thinking maybe summer of 2021, one, maybe two farms will approach us and say hey, we’re interested in getting on your marketplace and what can we do.
Josh:
Within the first week of going live mid-December, we had three farms reach out to us saying hey, we need to meet.
Tim:
Three farms from where? From Utah?
Josh:
From Utah. We only carry products from Utah farms.
Derrick:
Yeah, but…
Josh:
Specialize in things grown in Utah.
Tim:
And you realized…
Chris:
This is for utahhempgrowers.com, right?
Josh:
Correct.
Tim:
Right, so this is how Utah Hemp Growers got started?
Josh:
Yup.
Tim:
That’s a Nevada company-
Josh:
Yes.
Tim:
That is a marketplace for, basically, Utah hemp products to be sold around the nation but almost like a co-op?
Josh:
Not really. I mean there’s set boundaries established.
Tim:
Or do they just come and say, hey, look, we want to sell our products. We want you to help us network get these accounts set up and find places where we can sell our stuff?
Josh:
Well, we just open it up to the nationwide marketplace and-
Chris:
Everybody can buy it.
Tim:
Even Utah.
Josh:
Everybody, exactly-
Chris:
Even Utah people can buy it-
Tim:
Because you’re out of Nevada, so you can buy it back to use?
Derrick:
Yeah, that was kind of our main focus is to be able to get flower here.
Josh:
And one of the biggest risks in the hemp market is because so much of it is online, you’re having to take a risk as a customer of buying from a company that is brand new, that you’ve never heard of and that you’ve never met and so from a farmer’s perspective, what’s better than being able to sell what you’ve grown to your community and show-
Tim:
Well, of course, I mean that’s the whole point. We talked last week about this to Margie up in Cash County.
Chris:
The Hemp Folk.
Tim:
Yeah, The Hemp Folk, where this … People want to buy tomatoes from the local farmer-
Josh:
Yeah, exactly.
Tim:
And they’re going to want to buy, eventually, right-
Chris:
Some local CBG.
Yeah, right?
Josh:
Keeps the money in the state too.
Tim:
That’s right but you’ve had to go out of state to get it back in?
Josh:
Yes.
Tim:
A story we’ve heard three or four times now.
Chris:
I mean was that tough to set up? I mean, were there hoops that you had to jump through for that?
Josh:
It’s been a minefield of regulation, just tiptoeing and finding out-
Tim:
Even though it’s in Nevada? Even though-
Josh:
… how to do it right.
Tim:
… Nevada’s … I mean Nevada’s full legal for everything, really. So there probably wasn’t a lot of laws for Nevada that you had to jump through.
Josh:
Yeah, but well, the big sacrifice is we package and fulfill all of our shipments in Nevada and so there have been weeks where we will get one order and it’s a $20 order and we wait a day, maybe two days to see if more will come in and then we just have to bite the bullet, drive out to Nevada, fulfill the order and get it shipped and drive back.
Chris:
So, you have to do everything in Nevada? You can’t do it here in Utah?
Josh:
No.
Tim:
Because it has to be postmarked, that’s the key, right? You can’t hide.
Josh:
Yeah.
Tim:
Because the postmark. If that person was on UDAF and he made the order and it was postmarked here, you’re done.
Josh:
Yeah.
Tim:
Okay, so-
Josh:
There’s people doing it like that here but-
Chris:
Fun to learn about.
Josh:
We don’t delve into that.
Chris:
People don’t realize the obstacles that these guys are jumping through in the … How much extra work they’re doing for really little pay if you ask my opinion.
Tim:
I totally agree and I think also that every time we talk to another hemp grower, we talk to another person in the cannabis marketplace that is not … Specifically not in the medical side, the hoops that you have to jump through, you have to find the hoop, you have to find a way to jump through the hoop. No one is there to help you. The regulations are not clear. Every state is different whereas with the medical program, it does seem like those rules are set. It costs a lot of money to get in. You’re going to have a big infrastructure to do those things that you have to comply, right? To follow those compliance rules? And even though it seems it’s hard to get into the medical side, it does seem more straight forward.
Josh:
Yeah, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim:
Would you agree with that?
Josh:
Oh yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative), yup. The rules for the Utah hemp industry are unclear. They’re pretty undefined.
Tim:
And they that way, do you think, nationwide or is Utah unique there because I’ve also heard that Utah’s hemp laws are some of the best or most progressive or the marketplace is growing better. Is that just marketing?
Josh:
I would say it’s just marketing. I mean most of the country’s going off of USDA laws and with this recent change allowing flower on the shelves, it may look like a step forward but the current writing with 0.3% total THC post harvest means that your Delta-9 levels need to be 0.03 because you have to account for the other cannabinoids to stay under that 0.3.
Tim:
Okay, so let’s talk about the new law changes a little bit and let’s dig into this. Okay, we’re pretty clear on 0.3% or less of THC in any flower. So the law change … Explain what the law changed in Utah with flower … With hemp flower or CBD flower.
Josh:
So, it allowed for hemp flower and hemp flower products to be sold in brick and mortar, in-person, but it changed the wording to 0.3% total THC with a post harvest COA that has to be full-panel as well and then you have your-
Tim:
Uh-huh, so it includes Delta-10, Delta-9, Delta-8-
Josh:
Everything.
Tim:
All of the Deltas-
Josh:
All of the cannabinoids.
Derrick:
All of them.
Josh:
And that needs to be…
Derrick:
0.3 or lower.
Tim:
Okay.
Josh:
And this is after harvest when the plant is more likely to spike in its cannabinoid levels-
Chris:
Wow.
Josh:
So, USDA rules are 0.3 Delta-9 pre-harvest, before the plant has a chance to spike and you’re only measuring one cannabinoid. Utah is all the cannabinoids post harvest and that number needs to be below 0.3.
Tim:
All the tetrahydrocannabinol post harvest, not the CBD, CBG, CBN, all the tetrahydrocannabinol-
Josh:
Yes, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim:
Which is a lot of Deltas, right?
Josh:
Yeah.
Tim:
Now, this is specific because in other states, they’ve had Delta-8, this came up. I think … Tell me if I’m wrong, Delta-8 has been manipulated in other markets to sell something that will kind of get you high?
Josh:
Yeah, and for Utah Hemp Growers, we believe that that’s an imperfect practice. So we have it stated on our website, we will not carry any of that sprayed flower because that Delta-8 extract, it can be extracted or it can be synthesized. You have no idea where it’s coming from and you don’t know, unless you have a reliable, full-panel COA, you don’t know the amount of solvents that are still in that and so what we’re seeing is there’s a lot of people that are … I mean just straight with a paint sprayer, they just spray down the buds with this Delta-8 solution and then try and move it out the door to give you kind of an extra kick. It’s kind of weird. It seems like the new spice hype.
Tim:
Sorry, I had a patient recently that talked about the difference between Delta-8 and Delta-9 from an experience standpoint because there’s not a lot of research in the uptake of Delta-8 in the body. It does seem to be a peripheral uptake, not a brain uptake as much and he described … He smoked a half a gram of Delta-8 concentrate and he just described it as this almost tingly, numbing type feeling throughout his limbs.
Josh:
Oh wow.
Tim:
A much more peripheral experience where he didn’t have that psycho activity but it was still … It still had a significant effect, right?
Josh:
Yeah.
Tim:
And that Delta-8 seemed to be like the reason they changed the rules and the language in the law for the hemp side.
Josh:
Yeah, it’s a big factor in why they’re doing it.
Tim:
But it makes it really hard for you guys to take total THC and keep it under 0.3.
Josh:
Yeah, nearly impossible.
Tim:
Really?
Josh:
Yeah.
Tim:
What happens if your flower’s 0.35 or beyond the … There’s some sort of buffer.
Josh:
Yeah, there’s the 15% buffer. So you can go to 0.35 and still be able to-
Tim:
Still be technically legal?
Josh:
… put it on the market.
Tim:
But what happens if it’s 0.4?
Josh:
0.4, you’re allowed to remediate it into oil or destroy it without penalty and if you go above 1%, then they just notify law enforcement.
Chris:
And then law enforcement comes and arrests you?
Josh:
Yeah.
Tim:
Then the black suburbans show up, oh my god.
Chris:
Even though you didn’t try to. I mean you grew hemp but then it … I mean what are the chances of it being too high?
Tim:
Yeah, how often do you get a hot … What do you call it? A hot crop?
Josh:
A hot crop. Going over 1% is pretty hard.
Chris:
Okay, okay. That’s why I was like, I wonder how hard is that? That might be kind of scary.
Josh:
Yeah, so I mean I can see why they wrote that but it is pretty intimidating.
Chris:
Yeah, noted, noted.
Tim:
I mean is there a way for you guys to test it before they come and test it?
Derrick:
So, we have a pre-harvest test that we pass. So that’s come and done … Performed by the state and then we have a certain window and then we have to do a post-harvest test.
Chris:
Well, I’m just wondering like that you guys can keep an eye on to make sure you’re not getting too hot?
Josh:
Yeah, I mean and growing the same strain over and over again-
Chris:
You kind of figure that out?
Josh:
… we know where it’s going to be and when it’s going to be and when it’s going to … If and when it won’t be compliant and so, there was one strain that we grew first that wasn’t compliant and we got rid of it because it just … It didn’t … It wasn’t even compliant when they came in pre-harvest.
Chris:
Oh right, so you’re like this is not going to work out, it’s just too hard. There’s plenty of other strains. How many strains do you get to choose from before you grow? Are there plenty of options?
Josh:
Oh, there’re tons of options.
Derrick:
Tons, yeah.
Tim:
Really?
Josh:
It doesn’t mean that it’s going to be quality in the end but there’re tons of options out there, yeah.
Tim:
And do you buy seeds or clones?
Josh:
Well, we start with seed and then if it turns out to be a phenotype that we like, then we’ll go off of clone off of just that one phenotype, just for control.
Derrick:
Yeah, like we’ve had three strains that we just pushed out that we didn’t like how any of them turned out as far as weight and we haven’t had a chance to partake upon them yet but just the way that they’re growing and stuff, they’re just not really probably what we’re going to continue with. So, we’re not stuck on any strains but we do have like our flagship, our Blue Mint. It’s a cross-strain of Charlotte’s Web and Harle Tsu that’s just phenomenal and you can’t get it anywhere else.
Tim:
Is the cannabinoid content … Like do you look for mixes of certain type of cannabinoids? Like the Blue Mint, describe that. Like what’s the cannabinoid content in something like that?
Josh:
Our CBD in that runs anywhere between like 13 and 15% but we’re not chasing any specific cannabinoid and we’re not chasing a terpene profile. We just try the flower. We give it out for samples for professional reviews and get feedback and there are some strains out there that we’ve sampled that are 25%, 28% CBD that just don’t cut it. So we’re not chasing any kind of specific profile-
Tim:
You’re chasing the experience?
Josh:
Yeah, does it have a good experience? Does it have good effects-
Derrick:
Yeah, because it’s medicine.
Josh:
Good smell? Good look?
Tim:
Yeah, and you’re hitting on a point here where the entourage effect of an interesting profile based on the person that consumes it, the way it’s consumed and that sort of thing can change, even regardless of the content. I think there is too much put on, for example, the percentage of THC in a flower, right?
Josh:
Correct.
Tim:
And we talk about this all the time.
Chris:
Every episode it seems like, right?
Tim:
Yeah, how the THC content, the percentage doesn’t matter, right? There’s been good studies that compare 15% THC to 25% and the reporting is that you just get just as high, right?
Josh:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim:
Or the experience is just as psychoactive. So, I like that approach, that’s pretty cool.
Derrick:
Yeah, the education needs to be … To just catch up and be spread more and more and I think that it’ll catch on over the next few years, hopefully, that people stop chasing individual cannabinoids. Just because it’s 33% THC doesn’t mean that it’s the flower that’s right for you.
Chris:
Yeah.
Tim:
Yeah, interesting. So now, how, with the law change though and you’ve got good product and it meets all the requirements, now can I go to your shop and buy it?
Josh:
Our website, because we don’t have any physical locations?
Tim:
Okay.
Chris:
Well, can we go on your website and get it shipped directly from-
Tim:
Yeah, can now …
Josh:
Yep, directly to your door.
Chris:
So, you don’t have to go to Nevada and ship it to me now?
Josh:
Well, no, now … Well, we still have to drive to Nevada and fulfill it but we can have it shipped right to your door.
Tim:
Okay, but how did the law change to allow smokable flower to be sold in Utah?
Josh:
If it’s being sold in Utah, if the transaction is taking place in Utah, then that product must be 0.3% total THC or less, have a full-panel lab post-harvest and be registered with the state, which I think is like $350 per product.
Tim:
And that’s every time you harvest? Probably.
Josh:
Yes, you must also, if you are going to fulfill that yourself, you have to have your cultivation license and a processing license now.
Tim:
For hemp?
Josh:
For hemp, for hemp.
Tim:
But you can still drive to Nevada and ship it back into Utah without following that part?
Josh:
Well, because we’re a Nevada company operating under Nevada laws under USDA laws-
Tim:
Oh my lordy.
Chris:
So, even with this new law, it doesn’t even matter.
Tim:
So, do you feel like the law is a benefit or is it a step in the right direction or does it just create a different set of issues?
Josh:
it’s a different set of issues because it’s going to open up the floodgates for low grade flower on Utah shelves-
Derrick:
People are going to-
Josh:
Because it has to stay under that percentage.
Derrick:
Yeah, people are going to get their first hemp experience buying let’s say a pre-roll in a store and it’s going to be a less than ideal experience.
Chris:
Because the company that makes that pre-roll or sells that flower is probably going to be a company that just grows in bulk and is there to make the profits and they just want to sell a product on the shelf, but they have enough money to jump through those new hoops?
Josh:
And staying compliant with that 0.3 total THC, that flower is going to have very, very low levels of all cannabinoids.
Tim:
And again, we have got to get to a point where we can have a range of zero THC all the way up to 30-whatever percent there is now and find ways to allow people to make these choices with their, in my opinion, medical provider, who can help make these choices on hey, you know what? You don’t want to get stoned out of your mind but you need something that’s like 1% or 2% THC, right? Because there’s none of that on the market.
Josh:
Yeah, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim:
Right, that doesn’t exist.
Josh:
It’s either high CBD or high THC batch.
Tim:
It’s 12-plus, 12 is way low THC or it’s 0.3% and less.
Derrick:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah, we’re getting really good feedback though on people that are mixing on a one-to-one ratio.
Tim:
Okay, so talk about that with regard to your products, like what’s the process of using these products and how best do we use them? Teach me. Teach me how to incorporate hemp flower, non-psychoactive essentially of cannabis flower into my regimen.
Derrick:
Well, I should say, it is psychoactive. It’s non-intoxicating.
Tim:
Got it. Okay, you’re of the school that, okay, when I say well, CBD is not psychoactive and you’re like well, actually, if you go to the definition of psychoactivity, then yes, it is because it’s calming-
Derrick:
People will feel an effect-
Tim:
Right, you can feel an effect.
Derrick:
… but you will not be intoxicated to where you’re couch locked or-
Tim:
Okay, yeah, totally fair.
Josh:
Yeah, it takes off like that top heaviness.
Tim:
Cannabis/marijuana, marijuana/cannabis.
Derrick:
Yeah, right.
Josh:
You can use it during the day for some strains … Well, for a lot of hemp strains to help with anxiety, inflammation, energy. Mixing it, people like to say that CBD nullifies THC. It does not nullify it. It works alongside it to help balance it out to where you’re not getting that spiral effect from ingesting too much THC and now you need to lay down because the world is spinning around you. It helps to balance that out to where you can have a nice psychoactive effect from the THC without going down that spiral.
Chris:
You’re building your own 3% product or 5% product essentially.
Derrick:
Correct, yeah.
Chris:
Right?
Derrick:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris:
From a physical standpoint, when you’re talking about training and you had talked about your coaching, Derrick, before, I mean do you see that more and more people in your old world, the crossfit world, the people who are really into their health are moving this direction?
Derrick:
Yeah, absolutely. People are sick of all the fillers in all the medicine. They’re sick of balms not really working whereas we have a salve that’s actually like healing people. They’re not having to kind of rely on it for a daily thing, they’re using it for like a week and their injury is fixed.
Josh:
Yeah, we’re careful not to make any medical claims and so all of this feedback is just … It’s coming unsolicited from customers that just send back feedback saying, “This helped me.” We’ve had feedback from people with epilepsy saying, “This is changing my quality of life. This flower is changing my quality of life,” and we’re not putting out, “Oh, this will fix your epilepsy.” We’re not saying that. We just say, “Here’s a product that has passed out standards for quality and we’re putting it out there because of its medicinal benefits. Use it as you see fit.” And then we get the feedback of people saying this is changing my life for the better.
Tim:
Oh, that’s cool. Do you want to get into the medical side?
Josh:
Eventually, yeah, that’d be great.
Chris:
When a license opens up, I guess, huh?
Josh:
And we have the …
Chris:
But at least you’ll have the experience now, right? And you’ll kind of already have your foot in the door.
Josh:
Correct.
Derrick:
Oh yeah.
Tim:
Yeah, and how many square feet is your grow?
Josh:
We have a total of about 1750 square feet and we’re using a third of it but we’re working on filling up the rest of it. So we’re really small.
Tim:
Yeah, yeah but as far as that goes, though, I mean it gives you really good opportunity to learn, grow, get established and then I mean, heck, there will be more-
Chris:
Oh, there’ll be more. There’ll be more.
Tim:
… medical here eventually. They’ll need more. They’ll need more different types of people and Utah’s interesting. When you look at like beer sales or beer … Like the breweries, for a longtime, it didn’t seem like Utah was a good place to buy beer-
Chris:
It’s one of the best now.
Tim:
But it’s one of the best now.
Chris:
In my opinion.
Josh:
Yeah.
Tim:
Yeah, I mean we win all kinds of awards and even the low alcohol content of the beer almost made people work harder to make better beer-
Derrick:
Yeah.
Tim:
… and that craft product could translate into cannabis-
Derrick:
Exactly.
Tim:
… in Utah. We seem to be that type of group.
Chris:
It’ll be craft cannabis here, right?
Tim:
Right? And have some craft cannabis groups with small grows and-
Josh:
There’s always going to be a market for that small craft cannabis grow.
Chris:
Yeah. So, a couple of weeks ago we were talking to Margie, from The Hemp Folk, and she was talking about some interesting stories of mailing hemp. Have you guys run into any like interesting situations as far as hemp not getting to people or anything like … Yeah, she was telling us like-
Tim:
Oh my gosh.
Chris:
… she lost like $25,000 from one-
Derrick:
Oh wow.
Josh:
Yeah, well-
Chris:
… The post office just kept opening up her packages.
Derrick:
I wonder if she had like writing like her business name on there, yeah.
Chris:
The smell. I guess it was the smell.
Derrick:
Well, we haven’t had any issues with smell. The bags that we use are reliable and we’re actually phasing them out to get the child-proof bags. It’ll be more expensive but we’re staying compliant with how Utah has written the laws, so we changed up our labeling to be compliant and now we’re changing up the packages, even though I would say maybe 5% of our orders actually go to Utah. The rest of them go to the rest of the states but we’ve had-
Chris:
Oh, interesting.
Derrick:
… Yeah, we’ve had no issues with the packaging. I actually … When I sent out my first package, I had written Utah Hemp Growers on the return address-
Tim:
And you’re like, that’s a bad thing.
Derrick:
Well, the lady at the post office was like, “You should probably not do that.”
Tim:
Yeah.
Derrick:
Like just giving you some advice and so it really is just avoiding those things that say like CBD, hemp, cannabis, anything on the packaging that advertises it because then all it takes is one curious set of eyes to pry open your package and now it’s delayed. It never arrives. You lose your money.
Chris:
Yeah, you can put like … I’m trying to think of something to put. BYU or something like that.
Tim:
It’s the same thing with us, right? At Utah Therapeutic Health Center, our logo is the state with a cannabis leaf in it and we have a logo without the leaf because there are documents that we need to send that don’t … They don’t need that type of scrutiny, right? And it is a part of this business.
Chris:
It’s sad though that it has to be that way.
Tim:
Yeah, I think that it’s changing a little bit certainly you don’t want to go to the bank with that logo, right? You’ve got to have a name that the bank … The bank knows what you do but the bank needs to check their boxes and dot their Is and cross their Ts and they need their applications to flow through.
Chris:
But do you remember … I remember like back in the 90s, it seemed like it was the 90s, that like friends would wear like pot shirts and you’d be like, “Oh my gosh, you’re just asking to get tarred.”
Josh:
Yeah, for sure.
Chris:
Now, people wear it and it’s like, it’s okay.
Tim:
It is true. Now, this morning-
Chris:
So, it just goes to show-
Tim:
… We had this conversation at my house because we have some T-shirts that are healthcare-
Chris:
That have pot leaves on them?
Tim:
… to buzz about and they have the THC molecule on them and a couple of bees and they’re super cool T-shirts, I really like them. And then on the back, it’s classy on the front and then on the back, it says, utahmarijuana.org. And my son, who’s in sixth grade, he comes to me and he’s like, “Hey, it’s St. Patrick’s Day, I don’t have anything green, what do you think, Dad?” And he laughs. He just chuckles. He’s like yeah, they’d kick me out.
Chris:
No, but I mean there was a time when you-
Tim:
You can only go so far.
Derrick:
Yeah.
Chris:
… couldn’t wear it. You’d be targeted.
Tim:
Oh yeah. Well, the Utah in the Weeds sweatshirts, right? We wore those around all the time.
Chris:
Yeah, and you couldn’t wear-
Tim:
No way.
Chris:
… Like 20-30 years ago, you couldn’t do that.
Tim:
Oh yeah, there’s no way.
Chris:
But so things are changing.
Derrick:
The one kid with the weed hoodie in high school and everyone looks at him like, we know.
Tim:
Yeah, like oh, we know. Yup.
Chris:
Yeah, because it’s like oh yeah, you’re just a supporter.
Tim:
Right, oh yeah, sure you’re an advocate.
Josh:
That was actually my first experience with cannabis is back in high school. I actually tried growing it.
Tim:
You did?
Josh:
Yeah.
Chris:
Did it fail or did you succeed?
Josh:
Oh, I thought I was like on top of the world and I was acting so stealthy and I had three little plants in solo cups under my computer desk and of course, I got caught like almost immediately-
Chris:
By your parents?
Josh:
By my parents.
Chris:
Oh, okay, okay.
Josh:
Who called down to the principal’s office and the school officer’s sitting there with the vice principal and this actually started my path into cannabis because she asked me, she was like, “Why were you growing?” And I told her, “My friends smoke and so I figured I would just grow it and they’re spending all this money on it, that way they don’t have to spend money on it and I’ll be the favorite friend of the group.” And she looked at me and she was like, “Do you want to kill your friends?”
Tim:
Oh my gosh.
Josh:
And I was shocked because I didn’t know anything about it and so I just looked at her and I was like, “Of course not. What did I do?” And so I caught a suspension for that and when I got back, I went to the school library and checked out every single book on cannabis that I could find.
Tim:
Oh wow.
Josh:
And just started reading.
Chris:
Were there a lot?
Josh:
Yeah.
Chris:
Oh wow.
Josh:
People were like … Oh well, like my classmates were like, “Can you be reading that?” And I’m like, “I assume. I checked it out.”
Chris:
I checked it out from the library.
Josh:
Yeah, and I just started reading on the history and everything and was like, she lied to me.
Tim:
Then you go into the military, both of you have military backgrounds, yeah?
Josh:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), yup.
Tim:
You’re air force, Josh?
Josh:
Yes.
Tim:
Derrick?
Derrick:
Navy. I was almost seven years intelligence.
Tim:
Wow.
Derrick:
I was a communicator, so I did satellite communications, radio comms, point-to-point, network security, things of that nature.
Tim:
That’s pretty cool. Have you guys seen the new Army ad, the commercial where it looks like a game and they’ve got the communicator, they’ve got the warrior, right?
Derrick:
Oh, I’ve seen that, yeah.
Tim:
The fighter. They’ve got the replenisher and the chef slices something like the Kung Fu Panda game and then I mean it’s pretty cool but they’ve definitely changed their approach of recruiting to a younger generation.
Derrick:
Yeah, I’m sure the military [crosstalk 00:38:49] sweeping water in a rainstorm.
Josh:
Oh yeah.
Derrick:
Or sweeping water on a ship out in the middle of the ocean.
Chris:
Did you have to do that?
Derrick:
Oh yeah.
Chris:
Wow.
Derrick:
Oh yeah, I did two deployments on a ship and then one actually where I was boots on ground in Baghdad and so I go to see the silliness of a shipboard deployment and then what it’s like being attached to detainee operations at a joint taskforce.
Tim:
Hmm.
Chris:
Wow.
Tim:
Interesting. And in the military, did you have any exposure to cannabis in the military?
Derrick:
No, just keeping up with the news and everything. Like seeing the news in 2012 with Colorado legalizing and being like oh, great, I can do nothing about that.
Chris:
I can watch, yeah. The military kind of frowns on cannabis, right?
Josh:
Yeah, I was actually in … I was stationed in Colorado Springs right around the time when that all went legalized, so …
Chris:
But you can’t partake in Colorado Springs even though it’s legal?
Josh:
No, no sir.
Chris:
Because you’re federal.
Josh:
Correct, yeah.
Tim:
Actively engaged in like … Receiving funds from the federal government other than being a veteran. If you’re a veteran, you can’t lose your benefits for using state-regulated medical cannabis but if you’re active duty, work for the FBI, work for anybody, you can’t touch it. In fact, I mean we have friends in the state department that they don’t even follow us on Facebook or … And they’re close friends. They just can’t have that sort of stuff coming up on their feed and I mean she doesn’t even email me.
Chris:
Even hemp and CBD, you can’t even … Could you use hemp or CBD products in the military?
Josh:
Nope.
Derrick:
No.
Chris:
Today, could they?
Josh:
Anything cannabis.
Derrick:
No, yeah.
Chris:
Like even just go to the gas station and get some CBD tincture, they can’t even use that?
Derrick:
Absolutely not.
Josh:
No.
Tim:
Now, I’ve had guys that work up on base and are even scared of a zero THC/CBD product just because they’re … And they just don’t want to take any chances.
Derrick:
Yeah, yeah, there’s zero tolerance.
Tim:
Now, so even last night, though, I was reading some studies on PTSD and cannabis treatment and the Canadian government almost takes the opposite approach. So the only people-
Chris:
Here, get high.
Derrick:
They’re so lucky.
Tim:
… in Canada that get free federally covered cannabis as medicine, that’s covered under their national healthcare, are military veterans. Move up there and if you’re a veteran of the Canadian military, you’re covered. You can go into the dispensary and they will buy your cannabis for you.
Josh:
Yeah, and they can grow beards, which is awesome.
Tim:
And they can grow beards.
Derrick:
That’s great.
Tim:
Yeah, it’s just such a different approach.
Josh:
Yeah.
Tim:
And right across the border, right?
Derrick:
Yeah, and active duty, as long as it’s not directly interfering with your work, you can consume all the alcohol you want.
Chris:
Oh, really. That’ll change here in the US. I think maybe the US will eventually get a little more onboard with their military.
Josh:
Yeah, I would think so.
Chris:
10 years, 20 years maybe.
Josh:
I don’t know, however long it takes. I mean there’re the alternatives. This is the thing that I was researching, is really the alternatives between cannabis and other medications and that’s really where it comes down to is the companies that make benzos and opioids, they don’t want us to stop prescribing those and so they don’t want to do any research on comparative … Does CBD or does hemp flower, smoking hemp flower help you reduce other prescription use? That’s what we need to start. That’s the research that’s not been done yet.
Derrick:
I think they’ve done it in Colorado, several studies, that have shown a year by year decrease in prescription opioid use since legalization.
Josh:
Yup, mm-hmm (affirmative). There is. There is definitely an association with or a correlation with decreased prescribing of opioids and benzos too.
Tim:
So, you have the balm, so you have some type of products … some products are processed, not a lot of products?
Derrick:
We took just a shot with our balm, just let’s make a tiny little batch and see what happens and so the feedback has been great. So the next step is we get our processing license. We start adding more lights and we just keep going.
Tim:
Okay, so you’ve got to grow more, you’ve got to process. So you got to move to the next step?
Derrick:
Yup. Yeah, proof of concept is kind of what we were going for instead of just rushing into it and having all kinds of product or debt that we can’t fulfill. So we have our proof of concept down, we have kind of our flagship strain, so we’re kind of ready to rock and roll.
Chris:
Is it just the two of you? Do you have like employees, like other people trimming or anything or just the two of you?
Josh:
Nope, it’s just the two of us running both companies.
Chris:
Okay, that’s cool and is the marketplace growing?
Josh:
Yes. The marketplace for high quality hemp flower. Now, there’s a lot of average and low quality flower out there since everyone jumped on it, grew 10, 20, 50, 100 acres and now they’re sitting on it and they don’t know what to do with it and so finding the high quality flower is a challenge but I mean we’re taking it on.
Tim:
How do you guys market?
Josh:
That’s tricky.
Derrick:
Like this, word of mouth. Yeah, just getting our name out there.
Josh:
We have no SEO, so we can’t do any kind of online advertising. We have to be careful with any kind of ads that we do put out. We were lucky enough to get a full page ad in the Salt Baked City Magazine, their first one.
Tim:
That’s right, yeah.
Derrick:
Page six or so.
Tim:
That’s right, you guys were right by us.
Josh:
Yup.
Derrick:
Yes, sir.
Josh:
And yeah, there’s a promo code in there if people want to get their hands on it and check that out. We want people to go out and get it.
Chris:
Okay.
Tim:
Yeah.
Josh:
And check it out.
Chris:
So, use that promo code there in Salt Baked City.
Derrick:
15% off little nugget in there for anyone that wants to go and look.
Tim:
Yeah, and you can pick up those magazines at any of the pharmacies. You can pick them up at any of my locations, my clinic locations, Utah Therapeutic Health Center. Yeah, they’re free. It’s a free magazine. Salt Baked City, our ad, Utah in the Weeds, is in there. You guys have stuff in there. They focused on a lot of really cool-
Chris:
Beautiful, beautiful publication.
Tim:
Yeah, it’s a beautiful layout. And it describes a lot of the process of the over the course of the year and the people who are really involved in that.
Josh:
Yeah, I’m looking forward to more.
Derrick:
Yeah, the guy who published it is an incredible guy.
Chris:
Oh, yeah.
Derrick:
Yeah, he really wants to progress the community and we’re happy to be at his side, so it’s really great.
Chris:
Oh cool. Sure. What would you tell somebody … Like let’s say I’ve asked this of a few people that come on the podcast, somebody’s questioning whether they should try some sort of cannabis for something they’re dealing with and they’re a little skeptical of trying it. Is there any advice or suggestions or anything you would tell them if they’re listening right now?
Josh:
I mean if it’s THC-
Chris:
They’re maybe a little worried, I don’t know. Yeah, let’s say THC.
Josh:
THC, well, even CBD, we’re going to be offering like a flower sample pack. So you can get just small amounts of each and try it out-
Chris:
Try it out, yeah.
Josh:
Try one and give yourself ample time to feel the effects and for the effects to dissipate before you try something else. Don’t just try one strain, try another strain, try another strain because then it kind of jumbles all together and you won’t get an accurate representation of how that strain is helping you or if it’s not. But start with a small amount and then when you find something that works, use it and don’t chase a cannabinoid. Don’t try and say, I just need the highest THC, I need the highest CBD, I need the highest of this one terpene because you don’t know what strain is going to work and what strain isn’t until you try it.
Chris:
Exactly.
Tim:
This is just good advice like for people who don’t want to get high but they want to feel what cannabis feels like and they want to use it as medicine potentially, hemp flower is a good place to start.
Josh:
Yeah, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim:
The get into the experience, get a little dry herb vaporizer, grind some up, vaporize some hemp flower, see what it feels like. It’s legal, completely legal, you don’t have to have a medical card for it and it is a safe product to try.
Derrick:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, and the standards that we go by, I mean, legally, what’s required is for us to verify some kind of state compliance and that’s it and we don’t even have to post it. So, we take it upon ourselves to post all of our state compliance tests from all the farms that we work with and then post all of the full panel tests that we get so that a customer can see exactly where it was grown, what’s in it, whether it’s terpenes, a cannabinoid profile, the heavy metals, the pesticides, the insecticides, the moisture content, everything. They can see everything and they know exactly where it’s sourced. So we’re trying to provide a consistent, reliable marketplace for customers to buy from.
Tim:
Well, that’s more than you can say about all the vegetables that we buy.
Chris:
Give the web addresses and how people can connect with the both of you or whatnot, I guess.
Josh:
Yeah, we’re on Instagram and Facebook. Our IG is both uinta, without the H, uintacannabis and our other site is utahhempgrowers, all one word.
Chris:
And that’s on Instagram too, I think?
Josh:
That’s on Instagram. Yeah, both of those are Instagram and then we have a Utah Hemp Growers on Facebook.
Chris:
Very cool.
Tim:
Cool.
Chris:
So people, go connect, take advantage of that coupon. It’s in Salt Baked City. Try some of the hemp from your website and say, hey, you know what? I heard you on Utah in the Weeds, right?
Josh:
Oh, absolutely.
Tim:
That’s right. Yeah, cool. It was really nice to meet you guys. Thanks for coming down.
Chris:
Yeah, really great. Anything more you want to add? Anything more you want to talk about before we wrap this episode up? While the mics are still on?
Josh:
I mean we got … For Uinta Cannabis, we have some new strains in the works and we just brought on our sixth farm that we’re working with, so now we have … Let me just name off the farms here. We have our farm, Uinta Cannabis. We have Carter Kids Construction, Hemp Ventures Utah, Honeycomb Hemp, Puff Hemp and I’m missing one.
Chris:
I’ll tell you what, if you guys remember it, email us, we’ll put it in the intro to the episode.
Josh:
Beautiful, beautiful.
Chris:
So, they’ll be the first mentioned. So, when they get to the end, they’ll be like oh, you didn’t forget us.
Derrick:
Excellent, fantastic.
Josh:
Yeah, and then we’re talking with other farms and I mean if they’re growing good enough strains and it makes it through our standards, then we’ll list it. So we’re growing.
Chris:
Very cool.
Tim:
Cool.
Chris:
All right, guys.
Tim:
Congratulations, guys. Looking forward to seeing you grow.
Josh:
Lazy Roots, that’s the one.
Chris:
Lazy Roots.
Tim:
Lazy Roots.
Derrick:
Lazy Roots with their pre-rolls. They’re great.
Tim:
Cool.
Josh:
Yup, very cool.
Chris:
Well, thanks for listening to this episode. Make sure to subscribe on whatever podcast app you’re listening to this in. Connect with Uinta Cannabis, Utah Hemp Growers, utahmarijuana.org/podcast is where people can listen to the podcast. Utahmarijuana.org is where they can connect with everything else, am I right, Tim?
Tim:
Yeah, they can connect with everything else we have and all right, everybody. Stay safe out there.
Episode 51 of Utah in the Weeds features a fascinating discussion with Derek Sherer, a medical cannabis patient with a history of opioid addiction. This particular episode is ideal for anyone concerned about cannabis being a gateway drug. From Sherer’s perspective, it is an exit drug. [18:52]
Derek Sherer first started using marijuana recreationally at age 17. [03:19] In the years since, he has made a point of educating himself about its medical benefits. He puts that same effort into educating his children as well. [06:51]
His transition to Medical Cannabis began as a result of an opioid addiction some 14 years ago. [09:59] After breaking his hand three times and needing surgery, Sherer’s doctors prescribed opioids. It was after the second accident that his opioid use ramped up and he got hooked.
During the discussion, Sherer spoke of how he bought opioids on the street to handle withdrawal symptoms when his doctor finally tried to get him off the prescriptions. [17:38] Over the next 9 to 10 years, Sherer was using a variety of prescription medications and street drugs. In 2016 he decided he’d had enough. He also concluded that self-medicating with cannabis would be his ticket out of opioids.
Shearer explained how using cannabis helped him overcome the physical symptoms of opioid withdrawal. He also believes cannabis saved his life. Had he continued using opioid pills and heroin, he believes he would have died from an overdose.
Today, he tells his story to anyone who wants to hear it. Tim and Chris are on board, being strong believers in Medical Cannabis as an exit drug. As a side note, the guys devoted part of the discussion to talking about prices and some of the other hiccups Utah’s program is currently experiencing. [28:43] It was a great discussion all the way around.
Chris Holifield: So, this is going to be Episode 51, Tim.
Tim Pickett: I can’t get over every time you say-
Chris Holifield: Every time you get on here, you get so excited. And you know what? I’m like a kid on Christmas to watch your face just smile, because I’m like, “Okay, this podcast is actually working.” It’s actually doing what it should be doing.
Tim Pickett: It’s all because we have, really, it’s all because we have you. You stick it out, you do it, you’re good at this.
Chris Holifield: It’s our community. Without our listeners though, we wouldn’t have a podcast. So, really, you can say all that you want, but I’m going to thank our listeners for listening to the podcast every week, and downloading the show, leaving reviews, sending messages, all of that. So, who’s on the show this week, Tim?
Tim Pickett: Derek Sherer, who is an exciting guest, but we’ve finally hooked up with him. And he has a fascinating story about addiction and cannabis. And I love stories like this, Chris, because they focus on cannabis being an exit drug, instead of a gateway drug. And that is the science is bearing that out. We have patients that are bearing that out. This is a good episode to listen to, for people who are seeking knowledge about the legitimacy of cannabis as something that can help people.
Chris Holifield: Absolutely, no, I was really excited to talk to Derek. And then, when I listen back to this episode, before publishing in here, I’m just like, “Wow, everybody’s got to listen to this.” This is a powerful episode.
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: So, hopefully, listen to the entire thing. Listen to it again. Share it with a friend. Share it with somebody who you might know is struggling with the same thing.
Tim Pickett: Absolutely. And we’ll publish this on utahmarijuana.org/podcast, where we’ll have a transcript and a summary, Episode 51. If you look there, all of our episodes there, remember if you want an update on the legislative session, and what’s happening in the cannabis industry, Episode 50 with Rich Oborn was last week, which was a great episode.
Chris Holifield: So, good. Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. I’m excited to get into this with Derek. This is one that I think people should listen to, especially in Utah. This is a culture. It’s a culture breakdown.
Chris Holifield: Very cool. Yeah. Let’s get into this episode with Derek. Remember to subscribe to the podcast in whatever app you listen to this in. We have a brand-new episode, comes out every Friday, 4:20 AM. Let’s get into that conversation with Derek. Thanks so much for listening. Here we go.
—-
Derek Sherer: Congrats to you guys on the one-year anniversary. That’s awesome.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, man.
Tim Pickett: Thank you, thank you, thank you. It’s been-
Derek Sherer: Yeah, that’s huge.
Tim Pickett: It’s been an interesting year.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, it really truly has. Yeah. It’s been nice to listen to, especially through 2020. You know what I mean? I fell back on your guys’ podcast a lot just to escape and hear other people’s stories. So, I’m loving it.
Tim Pickett: That’s cool.
Derek Sherer: I’m honored to be here.
Tim Pickett: Thank you. Thank you. Well, I’m hoping to find out your cannabis story, and how you got… you’re currently a patient, a medical cannabis patient. But how did you get introduced to cannabis? Let’s go back to your beginning story, if you don’t mind sharing that. I’m always curious the first time.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. Mine came a little bit later than most people. I did. smoke a joint with a couple friends when I was 15 years old. Didn’t really spark any interest, no pun intended, but didn’t really spark any interest to me. And passed it along. 17 years old, revisited it and really, really fell in love. Just with everything that it was, it was just, I don’t know, love at first puff.
Derek Sherer: I guess you could say it, just I knew it was just something for me. I’ve never really been a big drinker. I have a family that’s got a lot of alcoholism in it. Like to have a beer here and there and everything. But it’s not something I see I could do every day, like a lot of other people do. So, yeah, this was just something that was for me. And yeah, 17, I know it’s a lot older than a lot of other people you hear, all the 13-year-old, the 14-year-old stories and stuff. But quite a late bloomer.
Derek Sherer: And yeah, just really, really liked it from the beginning. I knew it was something that was for me. And then, I really wanted to educate myself on it more. I knew a lot of other people were just treating it like a have fun party type vibe. I really wanted to know more about it, and this is back in 2002, 2003. And it’s just evolved so much, and I love learning more each and every day.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, you grew up in Utah too, right?
Derek Sherer: Yeah, yeah, born and raised here in Utah.
Tim Pickett: So, you said 17 is a late bloomer. Gosh, I was like 20 for the first time I-
Derek Sherer: Oh, really?
Tim Pickett: … I smoked weed. Is 17 late? Is that considered late for people to consume-
Derek Sherer: For the stories that I have, yeah. A lot of people that I talk to, they are really super young. I hear some people talking 10 years old, 11 years old. I’m just like, “Wow.” I’m thinking what I was doing around those ages. And it wasn’t even a thought. You know what I mean? It wasn’t a thought to me. But yeah, I get a lot of people saying that I was that late bloomer, and they’re like, “Wow, 17, it’s pretty old.”
Tim Pickett: It’s interesting that people have different… really, is it the world we live in now? Right, Chris? You, and I, and Derek, we live in this world where everybody around us uses cannabis. And it’s just part of our life. And so, for you, Derek, to say, “Well, 17 is late.” Well, in your world, I guess so. Right?
Derek Sherer: Right. Yeah.
Tim Pickett: But what’s “normal?”
Derek Sherer: That is a great question. It really truly is. I got kids myself, so I would look at like, what is a good age for anybody to partake in any kind of thing like this? And what is normal? You’re right. Because some other people see a younger version as normal, where others see, once your brain develops, obviously.
Tim Pickett: Right, right.
Derek Sherer: But yeah, what is normal I think changes day to day.
Tim Pickett: I’m going to be in that crowd, Derek.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, true, true.
Tim Pickett: When they’re 25, if my kids ever listen to this episode.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, mine too.
Tim Pickett: You can try cannabis when you’re 25 children.
Derek Sherer: Exactly. Exactly.
Tim Pickett: Okay, not before.
Derek Sherer: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: We let that frontal lobe develop.
Derek Sherer: My kids too, yeah, they’ll hear it.
Tim Pickett: But there are plenty of people who need an endocannabinoid stimulant-
Derek Sherer: Oh, 100%
Tim Pickett: … before that. So, there are places for it before you’re a fully functional adult.
Derek Sherer: Yeah. It does offer a lot. It offers so much. Like I mentioned, I educate myself so much, and dive so deep into stories. Obviously, like I said, I have kids. I’ve been an advocate for cannabis for so long. And then, I became a dad, and now I see myself as a dadvocate. I educate my kids.
Tim Pickett: That’s a cool word.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, yeah. I like to educate my kids too. I have a 10-year-old and a five-year-old. They both, they know what daddy, what he does, they know what my passion is. They’ve sat down and watched stories, Charlotte’s Web. The little girl Charlotte, this new one that we just seen that was called Waldo on Weed, really touching little story also. Six-month-old child that had a rare cancer in his eye. And parents picked up cannabis, CBD oil, and completely changed everything for this little boy.
Tim Pickett: Where’s that video at?
Derek Sherer: You’re right. It’s called Waldo on Weed. I’ve seen it on Amazon Prime. The name itself just kind of pulls you, you see roots curling across, you see Waldo On Weed. It’s like, “Oh, I got to check this out.” It’s a great story. I highly recommend it.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I’m going to watch that after we’re done here.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, It’s amazing.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. I think you’ve got, when we talk about kids and stuff, I don’t know if I can make a universal statement about this. But I’m trying to organize my thoughts here around it. Because you have cannabis, medical marijuana, you have alcohol, you have guns, you have sex, all of these four things that we talk about with kids. And it does seem like in every case, more education and more openness leads to better choices in general, right?
Derek Sherer: Absolutely.
Tim Pickett: You hide the booze from your kids, what do they do? They go try to find it. They drink. Hide the guns from your kids, you don’t educate them about them. They go use them in bad ways. Same thing with medical cannabis, sex. Right?
Derek Sherer: Yes.
Tim Pickett: You taught classic for that discussion. We can’t teach kids about sex education in school. We have to teach them about abstinence and what do we get? We get high pregnancy rates in teenage girls. Because we don’t know how to use protection. So, cannabis is the same discussion. Be open with your kids about cannabis in a good way. Give me a good idea, Derek. Maybe we should write a book, a kid’s book. What’s in Grandma’s Garden as a book?
Derek Sherer: Oh, man. I love it. Grandma’s Garden. I love that.
Chris Holifield: Wait, is that a real book?
Tim Pickett: It really is. That’s actually real book. You can go buy it on Amazon. What’s Growing in Grandma’s Garden?
Derek Sherer: You had me going there. I thought we had a deal working.
Tim Pickett: And it’s a weed book, how to teach your kids about cannabis and-
Chris Holifield: It’s awesome.
Tim Pickett: … in a legitimate way.
Chris Holifield: That’s awesome.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, I’m going to Amazon Prime that tonight, and maybe on the next book list.
Chris Holifield: When did cannabis come into your world, Derek? When did you realize you could use it on a medical level, more to help your body out instead of just recreationally?
Derek Sherer: This for me, I do fall victim to a lot of the… what a lot of people here in Utah fell victim to, a lot of the country in itself, the opioid epidemic. While back, a few years after high school, I’d say about 2006, 2007 was running with some wrong crowds, fighting, doing some damage to my hand, broke my hand three times, shattered it, required surgery on it.
Derek Sherer: They say it was too late, I’d done too much damage to it. Typical story, doctor was just pumping me full and full of so much medication that I didn’t need. I was going and filling my prescriptions at pharmacies and the pharmacist was asking me, if you don’t mind me asking what this is for, I’m telling this from my hand, and the pharmacist themselves are telling me this is way too much for you.
Derek Sherer: And younger kid right out of high school, I’m just like, I’m just taking what the doctor is prescribing me. Little did I know, it was creating massive damage to my body, to everything. I became so dependent on it, that’s when the doctor was just like, “Okay, this is the amount of time, we’re just going to take you off.” There was no weaning off process.
Derek Sherer: My body became, obviously, I went through withdrawals, and had no idea. I never really been addicted to pills. I’d never known what that feeling was. Used cannabis recreational before that, I was really never too familiar with any other drugs besides alcohol. And didn’t really know what that was doing at a young age. I was scared. So, I started looking for my medication elsewhere on the streets.
Derek Sherer: And at that point, I wasn’t even helping the pain. I was just helping the pain from the withdrawals by seeking medication through the streets and everything. So, that had turned into a quite lengthy addiction.
Chris Holifield: How long ago was this for you?
Derek Sherer: So, this was 2007 when I got on the pills, for the second time, I’d seen two different doctors from two different breaks and shatters on my hand. The second one is one it just cranked up. The first one, I was on like some Percocet, some low-end stuff. Second one, it was oxycodone 80s, and it just got out of hand. And from about 2007 until about four years ago, I’ve been off everything opiates, clean for four years, all thanks to cannabis.
Derek Sherer: It just went downhill. And I’ve seen things in that time, and went through things. It was just no person should go through. It was losing at least two to three friends every six to seven months, it felt like, all the overdoses, all overdoses. I became numb to it. I had not lost a family member until I was like 26. But in that 26 years, I had lost at least 15 friends during that time, in just a short period of time, all to overdoses.
Derek Sherer: My parents, my dad still talks about it to this day that my friends have set a record for just bodies is going down on all to opiates. And yeah, cannabis was something that I had obviously used before. It’s something that I use, obviously, just recreationally. Like I mentioned, I tried to educate myself on the benefits of it before, but never really knew the medical standpoint until I gave myself an option to look for other ways to get off this medication.
Derek Sherer: I did do the typical rehab. I went to rehab. That didn’t work. I was doing Suboxone, methadone, terrified of that. I know they have the programs and it works for some people. But that stuff is just as hard to come off of as opiates are. And I think any person that’s on that right now can tell me that’s the truth too. So, cannabis was something that I really took a shot at.
Derek Sherer: I had tried so many different things. The Suboxone, rehabs, and just told myself, I’m going to have this pain, like the doctor said, I’ll have this pain in my hand the rest of my life. That’s just plain and simple. And in the wintertime, it gets even worse. Utah can be winter in March or winter in April. So, it’s really hit and miss. But yeah, cannabis really stepped up for me, saved my life.
Derek Sherer: I truly believe it, and I owe it all to it. I educate a lot of other people that there’s other options out there. And this is just, I feel like the best alternative for anybody that’s looking to get off opiates.
Tim Pickett: How did you switch from opioids to cannabis? It sounds like you’ve been a cannabis user for a while, right?
Derek Sherer: Right.
Tim Pickett: And that’s always been part of the equation. But at some point, there was this idea that look, I’ve got to get serious about getting off the opioids. I’ve got to get serious about using something else, or what does that look like?
Derek Sherer: Glad you asked, and by all means, I’m not ashamed of anything. I’m not here to glorify anything. The glory from my story comes from me getting out of it. Plain and simple. I tell this story to a lot of people because they ask, just like you did, how did you do it? I was so deep. I’ve tried so many different things. And what was the wake-up call?
Derek Sherer: I had switched from oxycodone just like a lot of other people to opiates to heroin was using intravenously, IVs, shooting up everything. And just this one day, it was just the weirdest thing. I still don’t know what it was. I tell a lot of people this, they have their own thoughts on what it was. As I was ready to use again, I was just sitting there, and do you guys know the feeling like if you stand up too fast, you get tingling in your body?
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Derek Sherer: Okay. So, I was sitting down, was completely fine, everything, not withdrawing or anything. And I could just feel that feeling going from my forehead all the way down my body just this tingle feeling. And it was like a snap of reality. And I just remember asking myself, is this it? Is this what you want to do the rest of your life? Is this for you? And I said, “Absolutely not.”
Derek Sherer: I broke my needle off, threw it in the garbage, picked up some cannabis, and told myself I am going to beat this. I’m going to get through this. I told my mental state that it needs to take a backseat because I know a lot of it is mental when you’re trying to get off opiates. A lot of it is obviously physical as well. But I truly believe if you can overcome the mental state, you can fight the hell out of it.
Derek Sherer: And I chose to, and through the withdrawals, through the pain that I was suffering, cannabis was the thing. I had my humor back. I was eating. I was sleeping. All of the things that a lot of these doctors can prescribe you. But there was no side effects from it. You know what I mean? There was really the side effects were hungry, happy, sleepy, all things that I could deal with.
Derek Sherer: All things that were just perfectly right up my alley. So, yeah, that was four years ago. 2016, November of 2016, November 27, and haven’t looked back since. And cannabis has been not only the thing for me, I’ve helped a lot of other friends that have been in need. I know a lot of people see me, and they’re like, “Wow, he did it.” And they have questions. And that’s the only answer I can give them. I don’t know what else it was. I don’t know if I would have made it without it. I truly, truly don’t.
Tim Pickett: Tell me why do people go to heroin from the pills? How does that happen?
Derek Sherer: That transition came honestly, I can almost remember the day, oxycodone really took off. I can’t remember around what year it was. But it really took off and was just creating damage everywhere. All over from every corner of the country. And I remember when they took it off the shelves, and the company just said we’re done with this. It was like Willy Wonka’s golden ticket.
Derek Sherer: Nobody could find them and everything. So, that was a huge transition for everybody is that that became unavailable. So, somebody else just said, “Hey, I have this other thing. Cheaper, and just as strong.” And so, once that settles in, it’s just off to the races with that.
Tim Pickett: I’ve heard the same thing. It’s actually just cheaper.
Derek Sherer: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Completely, completely.
Tim Pickett: It’s like, it’s easier to get in some ways, and it’s just plain cheaper. You can’t afford the pills, so you got to switch to heroin.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, yeah. And it’s dangerous. But even more now, though, with the fentanyl that’s came in. I’m just so glad I got out when I did. It’s a blessing.
Tim Pickett: It’s interesting too, how people can label marijuana as a gateway drug when you’re using it to get off of drugs. It’s like how does-
Derek Sherer: It’s an exit, yeah, it truly is.
Tim Pickett: Why can’t we get people thinking that way, I guess?
Derek Sherer: I’ve thought that for the longest time, and you know when you have one of those ideas, and then you’re just like, this is such a great idea, and then you go to look it up, or you don’t even go to look it up, and then you just see your idea. They have a facility. I’ve always thought that for these drug and rehab facilities that they’re giving people, they give people methadone, Suboxone to help them detox.
Derek Sherer: I’ve always thought: why has no one ever tried cannabis to give these patients? There’s a place in, I believe it’s California called THC, The Heavenly Center. A music producer, Scott Storch helped fund it, and everything, and they use specific cannabis to get people off. Matter of fact, I’ve just seen today, there’s a center here in Utah that I believe is doing that now.
Derek Sherer: That is introducing medical cannabis to people who are trying to get off opiates. So, it’s amazing to see that people are taking a shot at it because I truly haven’t seen it fail. I’m a person that’s speaking the truth from it, and anybody else who has taken my advice, they’re right here with me. And it’s a blessing to see. Every time that I can see how it can heal anybody, it warms my heart. It truly, truly does.
Tim Pickett: What’s the difference between the high associated with the opioids or heroin, and the feeling of cannabis? Because I’ve talked to some people who’ve come off of alcohol, and they’ll say, “Well, I still get that craving and it’s different.” It’s not the same relief as the alcohol is. How does that work with cannabis and opioids, or cannabis and heroin?
Derek Sherer: Yeah, it’s a good question. Honestly, for the longest time, and this is probably true for a lot of users, I was never really getting high in the end. I was just getting by, and I was just getting better. A lot of addicts would chase that high. I never wanted to chase it too much, because that’s how you overdose. You can overdose off of a small amount, but a lot of people would chase it so much, and push the limit.
Derek Sherer: It was just to get by for me. It was really not necessarily taking away any pain. It wasn’t giving too much euphoria. But I do remember smoking cannabis while I was in the midst of an addiction, while I was in the middle of it. And just to quote Bob Marley on it, when he says the cannabis helps reveal you to yourself. I remember smoking while I was just got done getting high off opiates, smoking some cannabis and thinking to myself, why am I doing this?
Derek Sherer: Why am I using these opiates? I would literally have conversations with myself. And think this is so stupid. And I was so close to like, those were the close times that I had to full on stopping and quitting. So, I knew that when I had that rollover and just said, “Hey, is this it for you?” I knew that hey, every single time before you smoked, you would always ask yourself, you really got back to you. And it was the truth.
Derek Sherer: So, there was really not much more of a difference. I would say credit definitely would go to cannabis. It would obviously get you high, but it wouldn’t… to me, it was just more of a spiritual type thing. It was more of this is real, this is safe. There’s more of that hug high, more than that, like you’re just out of that kind of high. I felt the embrace every single time. But sometimes the opioids were really too strong in the moment. But since then, yeah, like I said, it’s a blessing. It truly is.
Tim Pickett: Now that you know what this process looked like for you, think about all of the knowledge of cannabis. You started when you’re 17. You’re in your mid-30s now. You’ve come a long ways. You’ve learned so much about cannabis. Could you design a program better now to get somebody like you, could you go back to you and be like, “Hey, four years ago, you’d be like, hey, man, Derek, you know what? You’re using this strain. No, no, no, you need to be using this in the morning. You need to be using this at night. You need to be using this tincture here.” What’s that look like now that you know?
Derek Sherer: Now that I know, I just want to know more. I truly, truly do. I believe I’ve become such an advocate, and such a promoter for this that a lot of people around me to talk about different things, whether it’d be neuropathy, whether it’d be diabetes, whether it’d be pain, whether it’d be anxiety. I feel like I am starting to educate other people on what, hey, this is what you need. Hey, maybe you need CBD. You don’t need THC. Maybe you need some CBG. You know what I mean?
Derek Sherer: For inflammation. There’s a lot of different things. So, I’m more trying to create this program for myself to help others to really pass the message of cannabis on, not only just for myself, for the loved ones around me, but for my kids. I truly, like what we were talking about in the beginning, what is normal for a child to start taking something like this? I can see my kids taking CBD at a very young age, given if they need it.
Derek Sherer: There’s just a lot of options outside of Big Pharma that people need to take a look at, and they don’t need to see this as a last resort. It’s very tough for me to hear when people are suffering through certain things that they say we don’t have any other choice. So, we’re going to try this. This is our last resort. So, we’re going to try cannabis. It’s tough to hear. It’s also good that they’re giving it a shot, but this needs to be the frontline. It really needs to be the frontline.
Tim Pickett: Top three, instead of the bottom.
Derek Sherer: Hands down.
Tim Pickett: Right.
Chris Holifield: What’s your favorite way to consume cannabis? What’s your favorite way there?
Derek Sherer: I’ve always been into the art form of a lot of different things. I used to roll sushi and everything like that. Rolling joints was a thing of mine. That’s for me, and my friends in the past, we tried to roll the best, and everything. I really do enjoy the vaping now. To me, back then, it was when somebody had a vape it’s like no, what are you talking about? But there’s so many benefits from it, from the vaping. Edibles, I’ve really trained my body on them, more or less.
Derek Sherer: I’m understanding a lot about how they work with metabolism, with lots of different things that you eat. So, that’s interesting to start working on the doses on that. But just really all things. There’re so many different things that work on so many different levels. But yeah, for me, I love the taste of the flower. I’m a flower child at heart, really. I love where cannabis is going, extracts, tinctures, I love where it’s going, but more kind of the old school flower child.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, there’s something about it, Chris. There’s something about the flower.
Chris Holifield: Just that right stickiness and just that-
Derek Sherer: It is. It’s the beauty. The beauty of it. There’s so much.
Chris Holifield: Right. There’s that experience of grinding it, of rolling it, or of putting it in the vape if that’s the way you consume it. Certainly, there’s a lot of people who still smoke it in Utah, even though it’s really outlawed. But yeah, that’s the thing, would you want to grow it or no?
Derek Sherer: Yeah. It’s always been a dream of mine, it really has, and especially with what I’ve been talking about is offering this as another alternative. I would love to figure out the perfect, I know there’s great strains out there for people that are coming off of opiates, but just one that’s just going to be the end-all be-all that a lot of other people can say this is going to be the one. You’re coming off of opiates, not Suboxone, not methadone. It’s this particular strain.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, that is a high goal.
Derek Sherer: It really is.
Chris Holifield: That’s a really cool project, though.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, it really is.
Chris Holifield: The right ratio of cannabinoids, even down to that where you’re going, “Okay, maybe we don’t need a 30% THC strain, we need 12%, we need high CBD.”
Derek Sherer: High CBD. Yeah.
Chris Holifield: We need that anti-anxiety.
Derek Sherer: Somewhere around the lines of the ACDC strain. I know that that’s a one-to-one strain that’s rare out there with higher CBD.
Chris Holifield: I’ve never seen it.
Derek Sherer: Right. Yeah. And you don’t, and you don’t. A lot of people are just-
Chris Holifield: You don’t see it.
Derek Sherer: … high THC. They just want them 30 percenters, and there’s more benefits in CBD, CBG, CBN, so many different things that people need to take a look at.
Chris Holifield: I know, it’s always interesting in a lot of the online forums, people get so bent out of shape about the whole of low THC, the flower in Utah is just too low. And I’m just like, “I don’t know, it’s not all that bad.”
Tim Pickett: We had some we had some discussions today with Justice Grown and they’re talking about this program as a real medical… this is a really medical program and medical programs, they’re not the same as adult use programs. We are not going to have the same products that they have in Colorado. We’re just not.
Chris Holifield: They just need to bring that price down, though. That’s hard to keep it as a medical thing, because it’s like people can’t even afford it.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, I feel real bad for a lot of the indigent patients out there that some of these prices, man, I work and I have kids, and everything like that. My dispensary buys just are just enough. But yeah, it is high. I’m just thankful It’s here. I truly am. I remember watching when Prop 2 was getting passed, I literally was up refreshing my phone all through the night, all through the night. Like come on, come on, come on, come on. And bless that it’s here.
Derek Sherer: There’s a lot of kinks in the system and in the program right now, but I’m very hopeful that they’re going to get it worked out. I think it’s just going to get better. But yeah, prices, it would be great. IAND I was really looking forward to, if patients were able to grow because that is just a huge thing. I heard you guys’ Bob Waters episode. Shout out to Bob Waters, that thing, that was amazing. I would love to get in touch with him. So, if we can link that up like that was-
Tim Pickett: But he brings up a good point, right? It’s $24,000 for his medicine per year. And it’s not covered by insurance. And it’s like 20 bucks to grow his medicine.
Derek Sherer: Yeah. And I thought about that, that 24,000 and it just made me think like, “Wow, how much is mine?” That number just put out there like his is a lot, but some are probably a lot more. But still just a lot of money in itself.
Tim Pickett: And people are going to look at that, and they’re going to say, well, it’s like a bad habit. They’re going to compare it to smoking cigarettes. If you quit smoking cigarettes, you’ll save all this money. That’s different. It’s a medicine. It’s not the same thing, right?
Derek Sherer: It is, right.
Tim Pickett: We have people with chronic pain that require this substance. And we subsidize that with insurance for all other medications, but we have no way of subsidizing it for cannabis, right?
Derek Sherer: Yeah. It’s just amazing. If people were able to grow it, I think it would just… it’s so much more of a benefit. Just being around the plant, I’m sure you guys have felt that change, and just being around the plant, you just feel a difference and everything. But yeah, it’s medicine. And if a person can grow their own medicine, why not? You know what I mean? I wish diabetics could make their own insulin. That would be amazing. There’re just certain things, it’s like, why restrict those things? But again, I don’t know. It’s new.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. We’re not the people who make the rules. We’ve got to live by those rules.
Chris Holifield: Hopefully. Hopefully, one day here in Utah, they’ll at least allow the people that are way out in the boonies, allow them to at least grow.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. And I think it’s my understanding, there’s going to be another retail license that gets out there. And that’s supposed to be designed for the rural market, so that there’s more access in those parts of the state that really have had a hard time with access so far. Because if you look at where you’ve got to travel to, anywhere south of Provo, you got to go to Provo, you got to go to Deseret Wellness. There isn’t anybody south of there. There will be, but still, man, it’s a long time coming to get these guys open.
Chris Holifield: Yeah. The program has been up for a little over a year now. And so, it’s yeah, all those patients down there. You’re pretty much forcing them to cross state lines. And it’s a terrible thing. It’s a terrible thing. You think of all these people that have never broken a law in their lives, willing to risk their lives to go get their medicine across state lines, because they have no other way. That’s a terrifying thing to think of.
Tim Pickett: Sure. And this is legitimate. You talk about coming off of opioids. And I can talk about 70% of my patients are reducing their other medications, by using cannabis as an adjunct, as an addition to their medications. It’s a big deal. We want more of that data. We want to drill down on that, but that’s a huge number.
Derek Sherer: Completely.
Tim Pickett: Seven out of 10 people using less other medications, whether that’s alcohol, opioids, sleep Ambien, with less long term side effects, in most cases than the other harsh, harsh medication. But then again, the issue is price. You got to go buy it on your own. You can’t even use tax deductible funds, like your health savings account to go buy it.
Derek Sherer: Yeah. Little things like that that would really step up and make a big difference. Yeah, and people are going to have to start looking at this. I know probably, medications are a little bit cheaper. Yes, you can use your insurance, but 2020 itself, I can see a lot of mental illness coming out from a year alone, and people requiring cannabis. That was a tough year for everybody. Everybody should have got a qualifying condition card just that year alone, just to help us through it.
Tim Pickett: Right. Like if you survived 2020, you qualify.
Derek Sherer: Yes, yes.
Tim Pickett: That should have been in the legislature.
Derek Sherer: Completely, completely.
Tim Pickett: I love it. The 2020 qualifier.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, it should be, it should be a qualifier for everybody. Because yeah, it’s something that people really need to open their eyes on. It’s not the taboo dope that it used to be before, and I know that people used to throw that word around, and call cannabis dope. And that’s probably one of the biggest pet peeves of mine. It’s not. It’s so much more. And it’s on its way. I’m happy to see it, always happy to share my story with anybody.
Derek Sherer: And anybody who’s suffering, who hears this or anything like that, they can feel free to reach out to me because I’m always there to talk. But just like I tell everybody, I’m in it as much as you are. I’ll help you as much as you want to help yourself. Because it has to come from within. A lot of people are scared. But there’s better options for everybody. And this was the one for me that completely saved my life.
Tim Pickett: What about your family and friends? Are they pretty supportive of you using cannabis or do you keep it hush hush?
Derek Sherer: You know a great question. My mom and dad, bless their hearts for going through what I went through and everything. It’s something no parent should have to go through having a child as an addict. It’s terrible, but we made it through it. And they’re huge, huge supporters. My mom was really the… it’s drugs, she’s never taken drugs in her life, never smoked a cigarette, she has wine from time to time and everything, real, strait-laced upbringing, and everything.
Derek Sherer: So, something like what I was going through and cannabis, it was just all wrong and all bad. So, she got to see what I went through. And she got to see what cannabis did, and she complete, I can’t even say the word 180, it’s an understatement. She’s so supportive of it. It warms my heart just to hear how onboard she is with it. She tells people how much it saved my life.
Derek Sherer: She’s fully supportive. She doesn’t look at it differently now. Years ago, if she would have found out how I educate my kids on it, she would like, wow, they’re absolutely not so wrong. But yeah, my mom, she was the biggest change. My dad has always been supportive. He uses it himself, also for his depression, and everything. But for her, she didn’t understand it.
Derek Sherer: She never understood the benefits of it. My friends, yeah, they see what it did for me. So, they have no choice, but to see that it helped. They always have questions about it. Tim was talking about what strain did you use and everything. And at that time, I was getting it from friends. But that’s the great thing now is I know exactly what to use.
Derek Sherer: So, it can help a lot of other people by educating them. But I do have a couple family members that are, how do I really put it, not necessarily judgmental towards the fact, but they don’t understand it. They’re not educated themselves yet. And that’s all I can say about it is that they just don’t know enough to fully understand what it’s doing. They’ve always seen other things as other options.
Derek Sherer: So, they still don’t believe that this is the end-all be-all for me or anybody else. But yeah, for the most part, everybody is super, super supportive. They know how passionate I am about it. My kids constantly asking me different things. We watch shows, like I was mentioning before. So, yeah, full-on support from those around me.
Chris Holifield: I love it.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, that’s pretty cool. And I think that the family members, you talk about who aren’t supportive, you’re right. It’s this really, a lack of education, but it’s got to be a lack of willingness to admit, or to maybe not admit is the right word. But it’s this understanding that you don’t know. This this acknowledgement of something you don’t know about. And so, I’m going to go out and find out about this, right?
Derek Sherer: Yeah, yeah.
Tim Pickett: It’s thinking, and I guess that’s judgmental to say, yeah, if you don’t think cannabis can be medicine, then you think you know, but kind of you really don’t. You got to be willing to learn.
Derek Sherer: Yeah. These are the same people that are the wine versus weed kind of things. They partake quite a bit in the alcohol, and see that as, “Hey, it’s right, what I’m doing, it’s legal what I’m doing. Well, it’s also legal what I’m doing also.” But this is something that’s new that you guys have seen taboo for so long. I don’t like to get in debates too much.
Derek Sherer: But it’s something that I will always debate people on, I feel. I feel like I’ll always stick up for cannabis. And I can argue with everybody, but what good does it really do for somebody who doesn’t really want to learn themselves? Alcohol, you look up top 10 dangerous drugs in the world. Alcohol will be top three in every single list that you find. You will never see cannabis close to-
Chris Holifield: Yet alcohol is legal.
Derek Sherer: But it’s legal.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, but alcohol is legal. To turn this a little bit, do you feel like there’s some danger to excessive cannabis use? Do you feel like people can get into using too much, and really not be good for their health? Do you feel like you ever got into that spot?
Derek Sherer: Great question. I don’t feel that I’ve ever really got into it myself. I’m a firm believer and that it’s really not for everybody. But at the same time, I fight that it’s not for everybody, because I think for the person that tries something that experiences something bad, whether it’s high anxiety, paranoia, you just hear all these stories where it’s just a terrible experience, or they use in an excess, and something changes.
Derek Sherer: I think those people need to be educated on what they’re using, and maybe find out what we’re talking about, what works best for them. Maybe you’re taking a 30% when you don’t need a 30%. You need something lower. Maybe you don’t even need THC. Maybe you just need CBD. I understand people play with cannabis as it’s like alcohol, so people will partake in it just for fun. But at that point, also, it’s still good to educate yourself on what you’re using.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. You don’t — you don’t go to the bar and just say, “Hey, just light me up.”
Derek Sherer: Yeah, you don’t, you don’t.
Tim Pickett: “Give me three hits of that.”
Derek Sherer: Exactly. Great. Yeah, great.
Tim Pickett: You’re right. You order a drink because you know what’s in it, you know the taste.
Derek Sherer: You know, exactly.
Tim Pickett: Right. It’s the same. It’s got to be the same a cannabis from a recreational standpoint, right?
Derek Sherer: Absolutely, absolutely.
Tim Pickett: You got know what you’re doing. And I bring that question up, because I do think in my opinion, there is an access to cannabis use. I think people can use too much. I’ve definitely met some patients who, in my opinion, they use too much. If you’re using a gram a day, and you don’t have serious cancer pain, or something, man, lowering your tolerance could be beneficial to your health.
Tim Pickett: So, this balance, cannabis is a substance, the endocannabinoid system is a system that tries to find that balance. That’s really what we’re trying to do with medical cannabis is we’re trying to bring the body back to homeostasis, that evenness. And so, I think that in any case, and the Mormon Church is really into this with the word of wisdom, and that is finding this balance, no excess.
Tim Pickett: So, I don’t know, I’m getting a little on my soapbox here. But I think you can use too much. But on the other hand, educating yourself about what to use and how to use it. That’s okay. That’s a good thing for people.
Derek Sherer: Absolutely. Anything can be used in excessive points. It comes down to personal control at that point. But yeah, I 100% agree that people need to know exactly what they’re using, because that’s when I think it can get out of control and out of hand. It doesn’t even become medicine at that point. You’re just rolling the dice, and just figuring out, “Hey, let’s see where this goes, and let’s see where it takes you.” Just like you said, here, bartender, fill me up. Nobody does that.
Tim Pickett: Right. You don’t know what-
Chris Holifield: Surprise me. Surprise me.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, nobody does that.
Tim Pickett: That’s a bad idea. Yeah. That’s a bad idea for no matter what you do. So, now, you’ve come all this way, what’s next for Derek? because I know you’re really now working in the industry.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, I am.
Tim Pickett: Is that what’s next?
Derek Sherer: Yeah. It’s a blessing. I don’t even feel that I go to work every day now. I truly don’t, and I know that it’s a blessing all around. My kids see this excitement, my fiancé sees this new side. It’s just what’s next for me is just to keep on going, keep educating myself, and I would love to continue to help educate other people as to, like we talked about, cannabis is not the entrance drug.
Derek Sherer: It is the exit from a lot of things. And people need to look at it different. So, what’s next for me? The sky is the limit with this. I truly feel more at home being in this industry than I’ve ever felt in anything in my life. You can ask my dad. It’s been a struggle for him, I’ve had every job underneath the sun trying to find my way, trying to find my home, and this is it. So, I’m just going to continue to grow, no pun intended, or pun intended, because I may be growing one day.
Derek Sherer: But yeah, I know that this is something that is it’s beneficial for me in so many ways other than just being a medicine. I love being around it. I love educating people. I love what you guys do. This type of podcast is so needed to educate people from all stories that you guys have, business people to patients to whoever. Everybody needs to tell their story about how this has helped change, shifted, done anything in their lives because this is a life-changing situation.
Derek Sherer: And being in the industry itself is life changing for me. This is a career. This is not a job to brag about. I’m not just a pothead trying to make a point. I’m here to help heal, and educate, and show people that it works because I wouldn’t be here having this conversation with you great fellows if it wasn’t for cannabis. It’s a fact.
Chris Holifield: I’m grateful for cannabis. I’m glad to be sitting here with you chatting and finding your story, man.
Derek Sherer: Appreciate it.
Chris Holifield: Are you on Instagram? Can any of our listeners connect with you through Instagram, or anything, or do you have a website, or let’s share some of that information?
Derek Sherer: Yeah, I am on Instagram. It’s DJ_Deuce, D-E-U-C-E, 801 (@dj_deuce801). One of my other passions, DJ and stuff. So, yeah, I’m on Instagram. And like I mentioned, anybody who’s going through the struggles can definitely reach out. I’m always happy to lend an ear, to help out.
Chris Holifield: Yeah. I’m going to get you on our Facebook patients’ group if that’s okay.
Derek Sherer: Absolutely.
Chris Holifield: And then, utahmarijuana.org, we’ve got a Facebook group, a patients’ group that people can reach out to others, and in just get a sense of what this is like for somebody else, get a little bit of back and forth. I think a lot of people, they need that here. There’s a little bit of isolation here, especially. You don’t want to go talking to your neighbors in some cases.
Derek Sherer: Yeah. It’s hard. It’s hard to reach out. It was hard for me. I had to reach out to my inner self and have that conversation with me. But yeah, I’m always here for anybody who needs the help.
Chris Holifield: Yeah. Cool. So glad I brought you on the podcast or that we brought you on the podcast.
Derek Sherer: Yeah. The take two. The take two.
Chris Holifield: Yeah. I know it’s been a couple of times. Last week, we tried, but my internet was out. I apologize about that.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, it’s all good, it’s all good. I like the take twos. The number two is very synonymous in my life. So, it fits now. So, I’m happy.
Chris Holifield: Perfect. Very cool. Well, anything else you want to ask him, Tim, or anything else you want to bring up, Derek, before we wrap this episode up, or anything?
Derek Sherer: No, I think I’m good. Again, congrats to the one year. You guys are doing an amazing thing. I literally can’t get enough of this podcast, and listening, and shout out to everybody who’s been on here. I enjoyed all the stories all across and always looking forward for more.
Chris Holifield: Maybe eventually, one day, we can get everybody together, and we can all just have a big day and vape together, right?
Derek Sherer: Hey, that’d be awesome. Looking forward for that.
Chris Holifield: [crosstalk 00:47:09] but we can’t do that here in Utah.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I’m thinking 4/20/2022.
Derek Sherer: Oh, I like it. I like it.
Chris Holifield: Oh, man, we better have a 420-party when-
Derek Sherer: Yes, we should.
Tim Pickett: Just a little while longer.
Chris Holifield: Very cool. And everybody can go listen to all the other episodes of the podcast at utahmarijuana.org/podcast. You can listen to them right on the website, or you can subscribe to the podcast in whatever podcast app you listen to all your other podcasts in, and leave a review if you haven’t left a review in Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Anything else you guys want to say, or let’s wrap this episode up, and go on with our lives, I guess?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I guess so. Well, thanks everybody for listening.
Derek Sherer: Of course, shout out to everybody in the industry, everybody in my work, you know you who are. You guys have a great night. Keep on doing what you’re doing.
Tim Pickett: Stay safe out there, guys.
The Department of Health’s Rich Oborn joins Tim and Chris for episode 50 of Utah in the Weeds. This might be the most important episode thus far for those keenly interested in legal aspects of Utah’s Medical Cannabis program. Suffice it to say that the latest legislative session has brought significant changes that all Medical Cannabis patients should be aware of.
The two most significant changes involve the expansion of access to medical providers and the implementation of the controlled substance database. In terms of the former, new rules will allow any medical provider with a controlled substance license to recommend Medical Cannabis to up to fifteen patients without having to get directly involved with the state. [42:14] Pharmacies will handle EVS reporting in such cases.
In terms of the controlled substance database, it is a done deal. [5150] Information on patient use of Medical Cannabis will be entered into the database along with all other controlled substances. Medical providers and clinics will have access to the data at any time.
Other legislative changes include:
Episode 50 is longer than most Utah in the Weeds episodes. It is packed with valuable information you don’t want to miss. Listen closely to the details and be aware that many of the changes being brought to bear will not be implemented immediately. Some will, but others will not be implemented for weeks or months.
Chris Holifield: All right, well, this is Episode 50 of Utah in the Weeds. My name is Chris Holifield.
Tim Pickett: And I’m Tim Pickett. Congratulations, Chris, on making it to Episode 50.
Chris Holifield: Episode 50.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I mean every time we record lately — we’ve had the year anniversary. And now we’re having Episode 50. And we’ve had and today’s guest is Rich Oborn, the head of the Department of Health, the Utah Medical Cannabis Program for the Department of Health. And here we are talking to him for the second time, which is perfect for Episode 50. Right?
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: And we’ve been in this program for a whole year. There’s just so many things that seem like they’re getting better.
Chris Holifield: When we talk about that in this episode, some of the changes with the laws… a lot of good information. Listen to the whole thing, it gets a little long.
Tim Pickett: It does. This is a long episode. But I think it’s worth it. This is the legislative update basically for what’s going to change in the Utah cannabis program for patients, for providers, for pharmacies. And there’s a lot of little tweaks that were made over the session.
Chris Holifield: And what I enjoyed talking with Rich here, Tim, is there was a lot of things that I was kind of first like, “I don’t like that.” But then with some clarification, I was like, “Well, that’s not really that bad of a law really.”
Tim Pickett: Right. He does bring it. He brings some context to some of these changes.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, I’m like, “Okay, that makes sense.”
Tim Pickett: Which I think is good. I mean he runs a reasonable department, and the Department of Health has been extremely helpful for patients. And anyway, this is a good episode. I encourage people to listen all the way to the end, because there’s good things all the way right up until the end.
Chris Holifield: Listen to the end, make sure you’re subscribed to the podcast in whatever podcast player and utahmarijuana.org/podcast is where you can get all the other podcasts.
Tim Pickett: That’s right. And we’re going to put a summary of this podcast on utahmarijuana.org/podcast. If you look for this episode, Episode 50, you’ll have a link to a blog post. We’ll put it up. And we’ll run through those legislative changes if you want to find out more.
Chris Holifield: Or follow along while we’re talking.
Tim Pickett: Yep, exactly.
Chris Holifield: There, go to the website, boom, follow along. And that way you guys can be up to date and find out what’s going on, because it’s important as medical cannabis users to stay up to date on all the laws.
Tim Pickett: I think especially because this is still federally illegal, you really want to be, you want to pay attention. There’s information about the controlled substance database. We talk about that towards the end. And I think that’s one of the big things that patients need to pay attention to. Let’s get into this conversation with Rich Oborn.
Chris Holifield: All right guys, here we go.
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Chris Holifield: So there’s 24,000 patients in Utah, cannabis patients?
Rich Oborn: Active registered patients in the state of Utah.
Chris Holifield: 24,000.
Rich Oborn: Over 24,000. So we’re working on 25,000. It increases every day, the number of active patients in the program.
Chris Holifield: And did you expect what? 6,000?
Rich Oborn: No, I think it’s important to focus on the fact that when we projected things, there are certain timeframes in which we thought we would have, and 6,000 was the amount of patients that we thought we’d have by July 2020, because March 2020 is when the program rolled out. And 6,000 sounds like that number is-
Tim Pickett: I remember somebody was saying that, yeah.
Chris Holifield: And I had read 16,000 the first 12 months based on some Arizona numbers, something like that.
Rich Oborn: Right, right, and that was high. And it was all based upon what other states had experienced, because that’s the best data we had. But what we’ve experienced is a growth rate that has been higher than has been seen in other states, which is great for the program, for patients. We didn’t expect that our growth rate would be bigger than what other states had at the very beginning. And it took time to get there. But once we adjusted and moved forward, we really saw those numbers increase, especially at the beginning of the year, or actually at the end of 2020, when everybody started to hear that recommendation letters were going to expire and they had to be a registered patient with the Department of Health in order to purchase product. So yeah, there’s so many factors that impact but here we are, over 24,000 patients.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I mean it’s really, it’s a good system in the making. There’s still some kinks to work out, and we’re going to talk to you about that and go through some of these legislative changes and not only what’s happened over the course of the year, but what we think will make the program better for patients over the course of 2021. Of course, having access to more pharmacies was a huge deal in 2020, and product. And maybe we should just go down kind of this list just to kind of keep it organized.
Tim Pickett: But really, we have this, the legislature passed a 15th —or they’re going to allow a 15th retail location. Is that just going to be another pharmacy? Is it going to be something different, some type of hybrid?
Rich Oborn: It will be a brick and mortar 15th pharmacy, and we’re excited that it will be dedicated to a rural area. It has to be in Daggett, Duschene. You went to Sevier, Grand, San Juan, Emery or Carbon County, central Utah. San Juan, I suppose, is also southern Utah. It’s a giant county. But I would say there’s some cities within those counties that are more frequented than other cities, higher population like Vernal or Price or Moab or Richfield, the applicants for those, for that 15th license, they’ll propose a specific address that will be in one of those cities. And we’ll take a look at the strength of those applications and we’ll compare them with a point system that’s fair and balanced.
Rich Oborn: And so just because one pharmacy may stick out from another in one category, it doesn’t mean they’re going to win at all. We got to be balanced in how we review, and I think we expect to get some really strong applicants that we’re looking forward to reviewing. It’s a request for proposal, an RFP that has to be submitted. So it has to go through what’s called the Division of Purchasing with the state of Utah. And that ensures one reason why it’s going through that process is that just ensures that the process will be fair and balanced, and that there’s a fair and balanced award system for points as they go through that process.
Tim Pickett: Because I’d imagine this is going to be pretty competitive. I mean, you’re only issuing one more license. There isn’t really anything on the horizon that says Utah needs another four or five licenses for a little while. I mean, do you see that there’s, does Utah project the need for more than 15 for a while or is that even not on the radar?
Rich Oborn: I think what we’ve focused on is we need to see what happens with all the 15.
Tim Pickett: Once 15 go in?
Rich Oborn: Right, because we’ve got eight open right now. The next one to open will likely be Beehive Farmacy in Brigham City. And we have pharmacies open up in places like Springville and-
Tim Pickett: Columbia, Springville.
Rich Oborn: The city of St. George and South Jordan, and those haven’t opened yet. And so I think that those are critical factors that haven’t fallen yet that will help us learn more about the market and the need for potential additional locations. The law already provides the Department of Health the ability to consult with the Department of Agriculture to determine if additional pharmacy locations are warranted. We don’t have to go to the legislature for that.
Tim Pickett: So anytime you could just be like, “Hey, we need a 16th pharmacy, boom.”
Rich Oborn: Yes, but we need to establish criteria. And we’ll be working with the industry to establish that. That hasn’t been established yet, just because we know that all the pharmacies haven’t opened up yet. And the past year, there’s been-
Tim Pickett: They’re not near to capacity, right? I mean, some of these places can do 600 or 700 transactions a day. And there’s nobody doing that many transactions a day yet.
Rich Oborn: Right. And something also that’s critical that has rolled out not to the extent we need it to in order to understand the market better is home delivery. Yes, there are some pharmacies that are much further along than others. Two are approved to do it, two of the 14.
Tim Pickett: So you’ve got a Wholesome who’s been doing home delivery up from Bountiful, and I think Dragonfly, they’ve opened it up too, but that’s not to say there isn’t, certainly Deseret has talked about doing home delivery, and that’s going to be a big deal. And that could expand the reach of these pharmacies into other areas and decrease the need. What you’re alluding to is that could decrease the need for additional licenses.
Rich Oborn: Potentially, but something else we want to be having a pulse on is the need for an individual to meet in person with a medical provider. And we want to, if they want that, if that’s just their preference, then we want to consider that in deciding whether or not we approve an additional brick and mortar to be in some of these rural areas where they simply just don’t have that option under even 15. They have to drive over 100 miles in order to get that option to meet in person. There’s always this offer for counseling with a pharmacist that could happen over the phone, and that’s being taken advantage of already. And that could just expand even more. But for some people, they just prefer to meet in person. They want to be able to see that person, different approaches to getting cares to patient. And it’s important to respond to some of those demands.
Tim Pickett: Well, we see it in medicine, too. I mean, telemedicine really took off during the pandemic. But the truth is, there are patients who just want to come see you face to face. And there are times when you really just need to see the person face to face and look them in the eyes and see how they’re walking and how they’re doing. And so yeah, I mean I can appreciate the idea of needing, potentially needing more spots.
Tim Pickett: When you talk about the pharmacies that are going to open now, the legislature adjusted the timeframe, the time to open. Did they give them a little leeway there?
Rich Oborn: More specific about what that timeframe is. There was a little gap in the law previously and what the SB 192 did is it set that deadline at June 1, 2021. And the prior law just had a little gap. So that was addressed by this absolute deadline of June 1, 2021. And all the pharmacies have confirmed that it’s definitely a deadline they can meet, those that haven’t opened yet. So we’ll see St. George, Cedar City, Springville. And there’s one im-
Tim Pickett: Well, Cedar City’s Bloom. So you’ve had yeah, I mean, I’ve personally talked to Bloom. They want to open. Of course, they want to open by end of April. Justice in St. George, I was actually down there. And they also want to open by April, they got a lot of work to do in those places.
Rich Oborn: Columbia Care in South Jordan.
Tim Pickett: Oh, yes in South Jordan. That’s Justice off of 106 or so, where their location will be, and that will be really good to have more locations. I can’t imagine being in southern Utah, and not having access to a location now. I think that’s tough. But also, the legislature adjusted the rules for possessing cannabis. Was that to kind of cover? Talk to us a little bit about that. Was that to kind of cover that extension to June 1.
Rich Oborn: Yeah, that was the logic behind it is just to give patients I think, especially in those areas where they don’t have as much access, the ability to continue to possess out of state product legally. In some cases, it’s really important. Also, I think it’s important to keep in mind that the supply and the variety of products, I think has improved. We expect more improvement, as any new program would with medical cannabis. And I expected during the summer, it would have improved to a point where it’s just not nearly as much of a problem as it has been in the past for supply and variety. Naturally, one of the frustrations from patients has been that there hasn’t been the supply and variety, and from the companies, that’s been one of their frustrations as well. But everybody who knows cannabis knows that every program has started this way, especially in a program that has started as regulated as ours in the type of atmosphere that it’s just had to grow in. So that additional time was given I believe for those reasons.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I mean, it looks here like you can, so patients can possess out of state product within Utah as long as they’re a medical patient and they have a card until June 30 of this year.
Chris Holifield: That’s if the products comply though with Utah. You can’t bring in like THC drinks and stuff like that.
Rich Oborn: You’ve never been able to do that.
Chris Holifield: Well that’s what I’m saying, so people listening-
Tim Pickett: Okay, guys. you can’t go get edibles.
Chris Holifield: And I don’t think a lot of people know that, Rich because I see a lot of, Facebook groups online. I’m like, “Man, these people must not know the laws.”, because I’m just like, “Man.”
Rich Oborn: Yeah, it’s important that people educate themselves and if they have questions to talk to people they trust that know the law like an attorney or just someone that works in the industry, so they are aware of those limitations of the type of products that they can possess. Even when you do purchase out of state, you need to make sure you’re in compliance.
Tim Pickett: We even have a kind of a rule change within the system now, right? There’s been gelatinous cubes with sugar coating. And evidently like the Department of Health, with the industry is kind of adjusting things as they go. That specifically comes up on the Facebook groups and things like this, the sugar coated gelatinous cubes.
Rich Oborn: Right. That was something that was tracked by the Utah Department of Agriculture and Food because they deal with the processors and cultivators. As a Department of Health representative, I deal with specifically the pharmacies and what ends up at the pharmacy. But I do know that the Department of Agriculture and Food did see that happening. And they I think gave a deadline by which the pharmacy would have to stop selling those type of products. They didn’t say you have to stop this immediately. They gave them a time.
Tim Pickett: They just said, “Hey, this doesn’t really meet what the rules say as far as gelatinous cube.” And so I think that some of the products, I know I talked to Zion, the thing about individually wrapping every cube, and there’ll be things like that. I think that’s kind of me personally, I think that’s kind of silly, but I don’t know.
Rich Oborn: It’s nice to have it individually wrapped like a Starburst or something.
Tim Pickett: Right, and they wrap those. And the other thing about those gelatinous cubes is if they’re all together, they tend to melt. So you got, I mean, one way or the other, you got to keep them separated.
Rich Oborn: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: What else have we got on this list here? I mean, I got a bunch of stuff here.
Tim Pickett: Man, we got a lot. The collection of QMP medical clinic fee data, oh yeah, and this involves me. So this healthcare transparency idea that we need to be as transparent as possible, and we’re going to supply, we’re going to supply the government, the state government with fee data. What’s the reasoning behind this?
Rich Oborn: It’s something similar to what happens with the payers claims database. And if you know something about Medicare, you might know that there’s certain types of facilities that have to report what their fees are to the Department of Health already in the all payer claims database. Those fees are collected. And it’s a complex, it’s a complex system. It’s not as simple as just collecting a fee. There’s different things that impact what that looks like. But the State Auditor’s Office today, if you go there, you’ll find that there’s this healthcare transparency tool that exists already for Medicare purposes, for medical providers where they have to report this different types of facilities already do this for those other purposes. And it’s already a tool that’s used by patients, if they know about it, to help them decide where to go get service. Now, it is, I think-
Tim Pickett: Is this something like okay, look, I’m going to go get a hip replaced. And so at this hospital, I can look up on the database, and I can kind of figure out that it’s going to cost about $25,000. But if I go to this other hospital, then the fees end up being $42,000, and that’s kind of the idea?
Rich Oborn: Right, so Senator Escamilla, what she wanted to do is to reflect that type of a transparency tool for medical cannabis patients specifically. And I think one of the issues that we found early in the program is naturally there’s a limited supply, or limited number of qualified medical providers. Many of those choose to not have their information posted publicly. They would rather just continue to meet with their current patients, and that’s their choice. So their name doesn’t appear on our website. You wouldn’t really know that they provide medical cannabis recommendations as a service, unless you’re one of their current patients. Maybe they’re an oncologist or a neurologist and they have that specialty.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, not especially new patients, but they’ll do medical cannabis recommendations in the course of their own practice.
Rich Oborn: Right. So those type of providers aren’t required to post what their prices are, for purposes of medical cannabis evaluations. The type of providers that are required and the type of medical clinics that would need to make sure that their providers report would be those that advertise publicly like your medical clinic, that they do provide medical cannabis evaluations. And there has been some concern of some of the prices that are charged because the number of those type of medical clinics is limited at the beginning of the program. There’s a wide variety of prices that are charged, and in some cases, the legislature believed that they were charging too much. Rather than saying you cannot charge over a certain price, the legislature says, “Okay, free market, you do this. But we will require that if you advertise that you provide medical cannabis evaluations, that you communicate those to the Department of Health, who will ensure that those prices that you report are posted on a health transparency tool online the cannabis patient can use as a resource to confirm the price that they would be charged.” Now, there’s a lot of different factors that impact price.
Tim Pickett: There is a lot of different factors.
Rich Oborn: That’s the biggest picture, just that one little slice of the price, right?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, that’s right.
Rich Oborn: So I know you’d probably want to talk about that a little bit?
Tim Pickett: Well, yeah, I think that there is there is a lot and there are going to be, of course, there will be clinics that will lower their initial price and lower their initial, the care they give the patient. And unfortunately, fortunately, unfortunately, that’s part of the marketplace in all businesses. And I think that hopefully, patients, the bottom line is hopefully, patients will do their research on who they’re going to see and they can look at this tool and they can say, “Okay, you know what? I’m going to look at these places, and I know what the prices are going to be. But then I’m going to dig in a little bit more. And I’m going to find out a little bit more about the reviews and who’s gone to see them. Are these people giving me the service that I am really paying for.”
Tim Pickett: That’s really all my concern is when it comes down to putting these prices online, because they’re certainly going to be and there are plenty of places out there that are just like, they’re the card mills that everybody doesn’t like. You’re really paying for a recommendation at something like that. And with me, you’re paying for an evaluation, a lot of education, a lot of follow up. Maybe you get what you pay for in a lot of places. So do I agree with the legislation in the way it is? No, but will we do it and will we go out of our way to make sure the patients know what they’re getting? Absolutely. And in that case, it is what it is.
Rich Oborn: One thing I think is important for cardholders, patients out there to understand is that this isn’t something that we are immediately requiring. We need time to set up the software in what we call an API integration, to set up our software so it can connect with the state auditor software. So I would expect that this will be rolled out in the fall. It’s not something to expect immediately. But it’s something that will change in the future that I think will empower patients, but they need to just be aware that price shouldn’t be the only factor and that they need to keep those other factors in mind that you mentioned.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, absolutely. When we talk about the, oh yes, it’s the 90 day renewal in the conditional card. This is like a huge thing.
Rich Oborn: But these are good things.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I think they’re really good things. So talk about the legislation surrounding this conditional card, this provisional, they’re calling it a provisional card. So are we going back to the letter system?
Rich Oborn: No, we are not going back to the recommendation letter system. So there continues to be a requirement that to legally possess and to purchase product, you must be a registered medical cannabis card, active card holding individual so you cannot possess or purchase product without a medical cannabis card that’s been issued by the Department of Health. But one of the things we learned as we move forward in the program is that we believed we could trust the relationship between a provider and their patient. And as long as a provider made the clinical decision to certify the recommendation of someone to give them a medical cannabis card, as long as that was in place, that we could allow for a conditional card to be issued. And that card, the purpose of it would be to give, it’s conditional because the final decision about the card hasn’t been made. But it just gives the state time to ensure that an appropriate review has occurred on the state’s end to ensure that everything is accurate, and there’s no fraud taking place that would be evident in the online application.
Tim Pickett: This is a really good-
Rich Oborn: So allowing the patient to go and purchase, but we always have the right within that timeframe to take the card back to revoke it if we notice that there’s something funny going on.
Tim Pickett: Right, some box wasn’t checked. The clinical documentation wasn’t there, something was missing. But this, in my opinion, is just smart legislating of actually, and I think I mean as rare as that sounds, that you get a government that is, is doing something that is really smart. This is one of those things where you’ve seen 18,000 in 2020, 18,000 applications come across the Department of Health, the EVS system. And you can tell of those 18,000, or however many you did, how many were revoked or how many needed more information. And then you can make a good determination, plus you had the letter, recommendation letter system that already we had gone through. And we had kind of proven as a early system, that we could evaluate patients and give them access to the product. They could go purchase it. And that turned out to be a pretty good, safe system.
Tim Pickett: There was problems with that. But it was, let’s say safe. And now you’ve made a change that continues that process in a really good way. I think it’s great for patients, because it was one of the big things in January and February that we were asked, “Don’t you do the recommendation, Tim?” And we’re like, “Well, yes. But then you got to wait.”, and recently, the Department of Health has been a little bit behind. You’re caught up now. But it’s great to have people be able to leave the office with that recommendation and go down to the pharmacy. How long will that take to implement? There’s the question.
Rich Oborn: I think we’re looking at fall 2021 for that type of the lift. That will be to our software vendor that we’re working with. So we’re really excited about it. I think one thing that’s great about an online system is that it can be smart, and it knows when a patient, by the information that’s being provided by the provider and the patient, it can make those automated decisions about who should get a card and who shouldn’t. We’re not pushing paper. We’re able to prepare the system so it can automate some of that process like an e-script would.
Tim Pickett: Right, you’re sending across the recommendation, just like an e-prescribed medication. And that’s being verified by however many factors it is. You verify me, I verify the patient, they’re already registered. Yeah, it seems like this is a good, this is going to be good for patients, right? Chris, I mean when you think, now will this happen do you think with renewals? If somebody expires, will they be able to renew their card and immediately be active? That may be a detail you don’t know yet, but is it the same type of thing?
Rich Oborn: Right, right. Same process for renewal. It will be an automatic issuance of a conditional upon renewal. And then that individual, as soon as the providers, as you do that certification, the system will read that and then issue a conditional card. And then we’ll make sure that everything is on the back end like it should be. And then we’ll then issue the second email with the card because all these cards are sent via email. We don’t send one in the mail, except for when people request it if they don’t have a printer or whatever, we help them out.
Tim Pickett: But that’s not really part of the program. How often does that happen where people really need a physical card?
Rich Oborn: Oh, I’d say people, we have probably every two weeks, maybe three, where people just request that, and that’s fine.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, we probably have three a month that come into clinic and want us to print it. So it happens. Yeah, we’ll print the card.
Chris Holifield: And laminate it too?
Tim Pickett: We need a laminator. No, we will laminate it for them.
Rich Oborn: I think one thing to focus on as we think about how this will benefit patients a little bit is that the 90 day period of the initial issuance and renewal cycle is gone in the new law. It will take time for us to implement the software changes.
Tim Pickett: Right. Because right now, the software automatically creates a 90 day-
Rich Oborn: It’s a 90 day. That will continue until the fall, because we need time for our software to make those changes and several other changes, including this one, but it will benefit patients and providers, because I think it will honor the relationship that they have that’s critical, that there continue to be a provider involved in the treatment. But rather than 90 days, it will be six months for that initial issuance. There’s the conditional card that is for 60 days. But then, as long as the department does our part to ensure that everything’s in there, then it will be for six months. So there won’t be the need for the user provider to meet with a patient after those initial 90 days again. It will be a six month period.
Tim Pickett: I’m torn about this one, Rich. I’m torn about the 90 day going away. I know it will save us a lot of work. And I know that it will save the patients a lot of headache. A lot of patients, it will save a lot of headache. But there has been a very good relationship built, I think on that. This is why I’m torn. And there’s been an opportunity for us to follow up with the patients at 90 days. And when you do a cash pay clinic, or you do a clinic where patients are having to pay out of pocket, and then you don’t charge for that 90 day renewal like we don’t, it allowed us an opportunity to research how the patients are doing and things like that. And so, like I say, I like the idea of not having that. We’re actually going to see the patient sooner than we would have before because right now, we’re seeing them in about eight months. And we will be seeing them in about six, about five or six. So we’ll still be able to see them. It will change that a little bit.
Tim Pickett: So I think overall good. But yeah, I’m a little torn, because I like getting that feedback from the patient sooner.
Chris Holifield: Or you can keep doing it.
Tim Pickett: And I still, yeah we still-
Rich Oborn: As a medical clinic, you can shorten that time period.
Chris Holifield: You can still do it if you want.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, and we have and I think we’ll find ways to follow up with patients and do that. But I think overall, it’s going to be nice for the patients to have a little more clear, you get your card, your card is good for six months, your card is good for another six months. And then we can start to work on this, whether or not a year is good for the patient. And that’s kind of the idea behind this change, is that right?
Rich Oborn: Yes. Another change that’s coming up is there’s a prohibition against alteration or removal of a medical cannabis product label that came from the processor.
Chris Holifield: I thought that was already.
Rich Oborn: Right. So this was just clarifying that I think we wanted to make it really clear that-
Chris Holifield: You’re talking about the labels you get when you go to the pharmacy with that-
Rich Oborn: It’s on the actual product you purchase.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, okay so it’s actually the label on the jar, now there’s a going to be a rule that says you can’t remove that.
Rich Oborn: Right.
Tim Pickett: Why is that important?
Chris Holifield: It’s like a mattress label, right?
Rich Oborn: That helps protect the patient, if by chance they’re pulled over by law enforcement, law enforcement can track down that product to make sure that it was a legally purchased product. Also, for recall, if there’s a problem with the actual product and the patient experiences and adverse reaction. If you keep the label, it allows us to research how many other patients might have been impacted by that same product that had an issue.
Chris Holifield: My question though is sometimes you might buy a few small ones and put in a big one, put it into a big jar at the store. And then if you don’t have-
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I mean if you bought a couple of eights, and you had a little bit of a jar-
Chris Holifield: Yeah, you might throw them all together.
Tim Pickett: So now you got to be careful.
Chris Holifield: Maybe save all your empty containers, I guess.
Rich Oborn: This law, what it does is it focuses on the alteration or removal of the actual label. And part of it has to do, I think it’s applicable more to cases where you’re transporting product if you’re going back and forth to work with it.
Chris Holifield: I got you, I got you.
Rich Oborn: Right? Because those are cases where you would actually potentially be pulled over, and if that becomes an issue, cardholders need to know.
Chris Holifield: They need to be able to identify themselves, show what they have.
Rich Oborn: Right, if that becomes an issue. It may not, but part of it is just to prepare a patient and a law enforcement representative to be able to, as a patient, protect themselves and as a law enforcement representative, to investigate. It makes that process quicker.
Chris Holifield: See, that’s why I like you on the podcast here because you can kind of clarify things.
Tim Pickett: That’s right. I mean it’s because I think a lot of people are just going to look at that and be like, “Yeah, that’s silly.” There’s no reason behind that, but yeah, I mean it makes okay, yeah, these guys are thinking this through before they just willy-nilly change the rules.
Chris Holifield: I want to talk about this one on here, though. It’s the one that says a pharmacy medical provider must review each medical cannabis transaction. So each time you purchase something at a pharmacy, you’re going to have to have a pharmacist there to review it?
Rich Oborn: Right, so already, a medical cannabis pharmacy during all business hours has to have a pharmacist, or they call it a pharmacy medical provider physically present during all business hours. That’s already a requirement in Utah, and it’s in other states like Minnesota and Connecticut as well. So that’s already been a requirement. But one thing, one critical role that a pharmacist in a retail pharmacy like a Walgreens plays is they are responsible for any differences between a prescription and what the patient actually leaves the pharmacy with. A critical role that pharmacist plays is just being responsible for what’s dispensed. That’s the verb that’s used to describe that responsibility in a regular retail pharmacy.
Tim Pickett: You’re talking about at the end of the transaction, when I buy my amoxicillin, the pharmacist, there’s the pharmacy tech that does the whole thing. But then at the end, the pharmacist comes up and grabs the medication and says, “Hey, I’m going to double check that. Do you have any questions for me?”
Rich Oborn: And a lot of time, you don’t see how that happens right there exactly. But especially with controlled substances, you’d see how important that is with opiates and narcotics before it’s dispensed, to ensure that the patient is actually getting something that is consistent with the prescription. So that’s what happens in a regular retail pharmacy. Now, we’re going into a medical cannabis pharmacy that naturally has some differences in how things happen. But there are some things that the policymakers felt very strongly about. And one of those things is if there is a recommendation from the qualified medical provider like Tim, and when they purchase a product with that recommendation, is that recommendation being followed? Are the dosing guidelines or directions of use that have been communicated by Tim in our software being followed?
Tim Pickett: No.
Rich Oborn: And the legislature wanted to emphasize the need to ensure that a pharmacist is involved in making sure that actually happens in a medical cannabis pharmacy like it does in a retail pharmacy. The pharmacist is responsible to ensure that whatever is recommended as a dosing guideline is actually followed. And also keep in mind that a qualified medical provider can choose to leave those dosing guidelines and directions of use up to the pharmacist at the medical cannabis pharmacy, which is good.
Tim Pickett: And even more so now, yeah, it is good. And maybe even more so now with some of the modifications that we can talk about next. And I guess it will take a little time for the pharmacists and the pharmacies to get this in place to where this is a little bit, this is smooth for the patients, right?
Rich Oborn: Right.
Tim Pickett: I kind of look at this particular rule as a doubling down. The legislature is kind of doubling down on the medical aspect of this program.
Rich Oborn: Yeah. And in their words, I think they are just emphasizing their original intent. They intend for a pharmacist to operate in a medical cannabis pharmacy, just as they do in a regular Walgreens retail pharmacy, just like they do in Connecticut and Minnesota. And they wanted to clarify that that is their intent in the law. So now it’s very clear what their intent is. And now as the Department of Health, we are working with, I was just speaking with one of the medical cannabis pharmacies today about how to implement this. And so I think we’ll work out those plans in the best way. There’s in the short term, how it will be implemented. And in the long term, the long term will have the software revised so it will be able to make it really seamless and easy. The short term, that will be a little bit more of a challenge, but in a retail pharmacy, it happens. So let’s take that model and mirror it in a regular medical cannabis pharmacy setting.
Tim Pickett: When does that take effect? Is that taking effect more immediate? That’s something that they’ll have to, these pharmacies are going to have to abide by pretty soon, right?
Rich Oborn: Yeah. So the governor actually still hasn’t signed the bill, either HB 170 or SB, it’s SB 170 and SB 192. That will happen later this week. There’s no reason why I believe he wouldn’t sign these bills. So they become effective upon the governor’s signature. But as a regulatory agency, we’re reasonable. We don’t expect, like a light switch for pharmacies to be able to implement things upon the switch. So actually, we’re having conversations with pharmacies, even today about how to implement things in the short term. And we don’t have a specific date yet. But it’s something that patients I think should be aware of, because what may begin to happen is that they may go in and experience where they want a certain product. But if the pharmacy medical provider, the pharmacist that’s physically present there, has a recommendation that doesn’t quite match up with what the patient wants, then the pharmacy is obligated to limit their purchase to what has been recommended by either the qualified medical provider, or if there weren’t any recommendations of dosing guidelines or directions of use, the recommendation of that pharmacist at that facility.
Rich Oborn: So that is something that they need to keep in mind, because they’ll experience that it will be happening more often, that there could be that difference. In most cases, I don’t think it will be an issue, because I believe the pharmacies right now are ensuring that that happens. This just makes it more clear. It gave us some teeth in the law to educate the pharmacies about, and it gave us the ability to require something in the process, where a pharmacist would be required to show the Department of Health, “Here’s evidence that I approved what that patient actually ended up with in the end.”, that the pharmacy agent wasn’t running the whole show until the end, that there was actually a pharmacist involved. Because after all, this is a medical only program. And I think that’s reflected in this emphasizing of the need to dispense accurately, and not just to sell whatever the patient wants.
Tim Pickett: Right. So the law also changed, and is now going to allow every medical provider with a controlled substance license to write recommendations for up to 15 of their patients. Right?
Rich Oborn: Right.
Tim Pickett: And in this they had to change, it looks like they had to change the way that was done because those providers aren’t going to be required to input the information into EVS. The pharmacy looks like they’ll be the ones entering those patients. Am I right about this?
Rich Oborn: Yes.
Tim Pickett: So with this rule, is this rule designed to kind of expand maybe rural access or access? How did this come about?
Rich Oborn: I think there’s a few reasons for this amendment to the Medical Cannabis Act. One is, is that if I’ve been someone that is a patient that is treated for chronic pain, and I really trust my provider, and man, chronic pain sure is messing up my life, why would I want to change my provider?
Tim Pickett: Why would I want to go somewhere else, pay money if I can stay right here?
Rich Oborn: Right, and I love the fee that they charge, they take my insurance and it’s convenient. It’s just down the road. Why would I want to drive 100 miles to somebody else?
Tim Pickett: And then if we role play this, I would say as the provider, really I’m not somebody who wants to get involved in cannabis in a big way. But I know you, you’re a patient, it’s probably reasonable you tried cannabis. I don’t know a lot about it. Now, I’ll write the recommendation.
Rich Oborn: Yeah. So this law, it gives the option to any physician, APRN, PA or podiatrist that was-
Tim Pickett: Oh yeah. And they’re adding all podiatrists into the Medical Cannabis Act, which is a good idea. They went to medical school.
Rich Oborn: So as long as you are in one of those license groups, and as long as you have a controlled substance license, then you could participate in recommending, ordering the pharmacy to help your patient get a medical cannabis card.
Tim Pickett: You’re essentially writing an order for the pharmacy. You clarified that in a good way. You’re essentially writing an order that the pharmacy help this patient, get a card, get a recommendation and work through that process.
Rich Oborn: Yes. So what’s critical is that the pharmacy be prepared to accept that order. Now, there’s certain information that appears on a prescription for a controlled substance, the name of the doctor, their controlled substances license number, their professional license number. One thing in addition that these orders will need to include is the medical condition, because that will need to be entered into the electronic verification system that represents, the pharmacy kind of works as an agent of the physician. The physician really doesn’t want to work with the electronic verification system so they just authorize the pharmacy agent or pharmacist at this particular pharmacy to act as their agent in entering this critical information into the software database that then triggers the issuance of a medical cannabis card to the patient. So it would make it so I could just stick with my provider, as long as that provider agrees to make that recommendation for me. The provider will have to do a little bit education on the pharmacies, and the pharmacies will be able to set up their own ways for that order to be communicated either electronically or on paper. If it’s on paper, then there’ll will need to be a verifying of that, actually, the legitimacy of that order directly with the medical clinic or provider that submitted the paper order. So that is how it will work.
Tim Pickett: This seems like it’s going to be another one of those kind of upgrades and modifications in the EVS system to change to create a new role, so to speak as the provider, a tier two provider, let’s say or something like that, somebody with only 15 of these, and you got to follow them a little more. Is it going to be more work for the Department of Health for these types of in this system with these types of patients? Do you foresee that this will be more work for the Department of Health?
Rich Oborn: Yes, not an enormous amount of work. But there’s some additional oversight that we’ll need to create. One thing that’s critical is that we set up a software in a database that is able to do a lot of the work for us. If we can trust it to set certain rules and to allow us to go and audit the software, then great. Let’s automate things to make things as easy as possible. So that’s critical. And I want to emphasize this is a good example of something that will not be rolled out really soon, the limited medical provider role will be something that it will require until the fall at the least for us to roll out. So again, a lot of these changes we’ve been talking about, they’re not able to be actually implemented until we have the software to support it. But once we get that software in place, it will I think provide some better options for patients, especially in this one case where they’re able to just stay with their current provider, which I think is the best type of circumstance as long as the provider feels comfortable recommending and ordering a pharmacy.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, to do this with them. I mean, I think I’d give a little bit of my opinion here. And I hope people expect that a little bit from me at this point. The more research I do about cannabis, and the more I learn about cannabis medicine, the more I see that having a relationship, when it comes to true medical marijuana treatment, having a relationship with a medical provider, whether it be the pharmacy medical provider, or a QMP or somebody who you trust, helping with dosing and delivery discussions who knows the patient’s condition well enough to know and cannabis well enough to know what to recommend, the outcomes seem to be better when you have that relationship.
Tim Pickett: So while I agree with increasing patient access with this modification of the bill, I hope that the providers who are going to do this are willing to learn enough about medical cannabis to move forward in their own education, because I think the patients get more benefit when somebody knows what they’re talking about when they’re doing the dosing.
Tim Pickett: And I think the pharmacists have a role to play there too. Of course, you know, I’m going to be biased and say, “Look, I like our process.” But this is an interesting experiment, I think, and I’ve talked to Ray Ward about it too. And that idea of trying to bring these other providers into the fold of agreeing that this is medicine and it’s okay, it’s just another tool in the toolbox. It’s a complicated tool. It takes a while to get good at using it. But I agree the more providers that we get involved and get more education, the more likely it is we’re going to see cannabis used in the hospital. And that really is the end goal. So yeah, I like and dislike this one. And I think that it’s going to be more work, obviously more work for the pharmacies, a little more work for the Department of Health. And we’ll kind of see, we’ll kind of have to see how this goes. Maybe we’ll bring on a doc in a year, who decided, “Hey, I’m going to write one of these recommendations.”, and then all of a sudden realized, “Oh my gosh, I prescribed less opioids. My patients are coming off their benzos. It’s actually working.”
Rich Oborn: And I think one thing a lot of us are looking forward to is when the federal government makes research more possible when we can get more FDA approved drugs that have gone through the traditional process and where a traditional doctor would obviously trust that it would be sold by a regular retail pharmacy. But of course, the law is still what it is. It’s still federally illegal if it has 0.3% or more THC, then it’s still federally illegal and you’ve got this patchwork of 35 states or so that Utah-
Tim Pickett: That have different programs. And they all have a little bit different programs all the way around, right?
Chris Holifield: What else have we got on this list?
Tim Pickett: So the controlled substance database, the privacy, so it ended up passing, right? Okay, well, the people won in a lot of ways, and maybe we lost in this one. So now, the controlled substance database, will it be patient’s information is going to be going on to the controlled substance database. Will it be tied into the EVS system? Is that just how it’s going to be built? How is this going to actually work?
Rich Oborn: Yeah, so there’s a few different databases. There’s what we call the EVS. That’s the patient registration system. There’s the ICS. That’s the seed to sale software database.
Tim Pickett: That’s MJ Freeway?
Rich Oborn: Yep, that’s MJ Freeway. And then there’s also in this, particular to this amendment to the law, the controlled substance database for Utah. Every state has a controlled substance database, or they call it a prescription monitoring program in other states, and in about 15 other states that have medical cannabis, they incorporate already medical cannabis product information. And legislators thought, “Hey, we want the providers that are participating in the program to be able to be aware of the medical cannabis products that are being purchased and whether or not their particular patient is a participant in the program.”
Tim Pickett: Okay, so basically, somebody comes into the ER, when I’m working a shift. I drug test the patient for whatever. They have THC in the system. I look them up in the controlled substance database. They’re not registered. Then I could essentially tell that patient’s not a member of the program and they’re using, well they’re essentially using it illegally. Is that part of this?
Rich Oborn: That’s one part of it. Yeah, that’s part of it.
Tim Pickett: I mean it’s kind of an example.
Rich Oborn: Through your lens.
Tim Pickett: Right through my lens, because I still work some in the ER, and I’m trying to imagine how we’re going to use this, and I can see exactly how-
Chris Holifield: What good would it be? So what if they’re using it illegally? I mean, what are you going to do? Throw them in jail in that case? Or what would that do?
Tim Pickett: No, because my experience is patients are discriminated against when they use marijuana products. And that’s just, I mean, that’s just my experience, I would have guessed that that would be borne out by some type of studies or research but when somebody comes in and a provider has a bias against marijuana, cannabis use in general, drug screening them is a way to discriminate essentially. And so I don’t want that. It was one of the arguments against using the, putting this data into the controlled substance database. However, there are some, being able to see that a patient comes up THC positive and is in the controlled substance database, if I’m a provider that doesn’t have a QMP license, now I’ve protected the patient from discrimination. So as much as I just made an argument against, I’m making an argument for the patient in this case, because now the patient is actually protected and they can say, “Well, I prove it. I’m in the CSD and I came up positive.” Well, it’s no wonder.
Rich Oborn: Right. So another I’d say advantage of this and one reason why I think legislators are so strongly supportive of it was because this will allow, let’s say I go to my chronic pain physician isn’t interested at all in recommending medical cannabis. So I go to a medical clinic that’s separate, to get a recommendation for my medical cannabis. This initial provider that was treating me for my chronic pain, if I continue to go to that provider, that provider would be able to see that indeed, “Oh, okay, I see you’re a legal patient in Utah’s program. And I can see what products you’re purchasing. Interesting, I can see your frequency as well of purchasing A, B and C products.” And I think it will give that provider a complete picture of how that patient is treating their chronic pain, has chosen to treat their chronic pain that they may not otherwise have.
Tim Pickett: This is objective data that I’m interested in, because we have had a number of patients who, although most pain providers do urine test pretty frequently, we’ve had a number of patients that have come through to us where they’ll get, they’ll qualify certainly. And they want to reduce their opioid use. And they’ll start using medical cannabis, but they are afraid of being cut off from their provider. So I can see this working a little bit of both ways. I think the important thing with this one is that if you are a medical cannabis patient and you’re listening to this, and you have a pain contract with a pain provider, you need to be aware when this takes effect, that this is going to be the source of truth for the providers. And they will be able to see all of the controlled substances that you’re using, which is we check the controlled substance database when patients come in for medical cannabis. That’s requirement by the statute. So we get all the truth. But we also don’t, we don’t broadcast that back to whoever. If the patient requests that that information doesn’t go back to their provider, then it doesn’t go back there. But now that will be available.
Rich Oborn: Right. And so I think one factor is just thinking about the need for continuity of care. And if I were a physician, I’d be able to ensure that I’m aware of the all the controlled substances, including those that are federally illegal, like medical cannabis, that they’re taking. Now, if they’re buying off the black market, you wouldn’t see that of course. You could be able to see that oh, this patient is a medical cannabis cardholder, their card is active, but nothing’s showing up. And that may tell the story of if the patient’s using, then they’re probably buying off the black market, especially after July 2021 when it’s illegal to possess product.
Tim Pickett: What do you think about all this, Chris? As somebody who’s outside of this, what do you think? Do you think this is just flat out an invasion of privacy? Or you think-
Chris Holifield: This particular thing?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, this particular thing.
Chris Holifield: My first thought was invasion of privacy, but after discussing it and after hearing some of these other angles, I’m like, “Okay, that makes sense.” I mean, especially if you kind of want to regulate a little bit and keep an eye on things. I think it could be a good thing, but it could also be, I don’t know if I’d say a bad thing, but it could be, it could cause some-
Tim Pickett: This is going to cause some anxiety in certain people.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, yeah.
Tim Pickett: And it’s going to be, I guess it just comes down to how it’s used. It really depends on the provider, the type of relationship you have with the patient. It encourages certainly honesty. It definitely should encourage honesty between the provider and the patient and what is happening. And I think that as we move this movement of de-prescribing, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen this hashtag around, but it is a growing movement that really, we’ve started to become a big part of this de-prescribing movement and using cannabis as a tool to de-prescribe-
Chris Holifield: Opiates-
Tim Pickett: Opioids and benzos, gabapentin, Ambien, these things that just treat symptoms. They don’t treat disease. They just treat symptoms. And cannabis is similar but may have less long term negative side effects. And so this controlled substance database, in that sense could help.
Chris Holifield: I just don’t like being on any databases. So the thought of putting people on that, you know what I mean? Like the less, but at the same time, it’s kind of like, well it is what it is, the EVS system I mean already has I guess all the patient’s information too. So I mean, the information’s out there.
Rich Oborn: Right. Yeah, I’d say that just an additional advantage to think about is just the ability for the provider to do research. We’ve got one of the best world class medical institutions here in the state of Utah at the University of Utah, right? So they want to do research. And they want to know what’s the impact on use of medical cannabis on opiate use. So we’ve got data that tracks both for specific people that can be protected and be kept confidential. But there’s ways with this connection to protect that data, but at the same time, use it for research that’s legitimate. And so that’s one thing that I think excites some of the individuals that were behind this is that it just allows them to do that research with the approval of what’s called an institutional review board to ensure that patient confidentiality is always protected and there aren’t a bunch of files going around with patient names on it.
Tim Pickett: Right, because essentially, what you’re saying is I could take, if I’m the University of Utah, and I get permission, I could take data based on 2020 opioid prescriptions in Utah. And then I could take, once I get access to this, I could compare that to opioid prescriptions in 2022 now that we have cannabis, and we’re researching that.
Rich Oborn: Right, and even look at specific records of unique identifying individuals. And take a look at oh, we noticed that this individual, as they use medical cannabis, their prescriptions-
Tim Pickett: Of other controlled substances-
Rich Oborn: Other controlled substances decrease. Now, there’s research out there already. Some of it suggests that they decrease. Some of it suggests that over time, it actually that is not the case. It depends on a lot of different factors. And we need to be careful with making conclusions on the current research about that. But this just strengthens the ability for researchers to be able to take a look at that over time, and then to publish studies in the future, that Utah could really be, I think a model for that, depending on how things move forward with the University of Utah in their interest in doing some of the research. The funding is tricky for that type of research. That’s quality research, where they have to spend a lot of time crunching numbers and doing all that that I’m not the expert on. But it just requires funding. And it can’t be federal funding because of the fact that-
Tim Pickett: Because you’re studying federally illegal substance still, but you’re studying a federally illegal substance in the best way you can, which is this.
Rich Oborn: Yes. So the controlled substance database and the inclusion of the medical cannabis product information, I think has that potential benefit.
Tim Pickett: So overall, do you feel like the legislative session was a success for patients, for providers, for pharmacies, for the program?
Rich Oborn: It definitely was. I think there are a few things where we have yet to see. And that’s part of what the legislature’s job is, is to say, “Okay, let’s just see if this little tweak makes it a more pleasant experience for patients.
Tim Pickett: I like that.
Rich Oborn: Right?
Tim Pickett: Right.
Rich Oborn: Or makes it just a little easier for provider to be involved in the continuity of care of their current patient. What tools can we create? So policymakers approach it like that. I think it was, that’s something that Senator Escamilla and Senator Vickers were looking at and Representative Ward and Representative Gibson is a sponsor of these two bills. Now, there’s some other bills that impact the agriculture side of things, a little bit more with hemp, and I know that that’s something that some people listening may have interest in as well. But I’m not an expert on those issues. But as far as the medical cannabis patients go, I think it was definitely progress. And as we learn more about the program, I think we’ll be able to even make further tweaks. We are excited to continue to launch the program. Full launch hasn’t happened yet. We still have these additional pharmacies that need to open. We’re learning more as we-
Tim Pickett: And those still need to grow.
Rich Oborn: Right, yes.
Tim Pickett: There is a ways to go still, before full implementation and we’re to full capacity, we’ve got a ways to go.
Rich Oborn: Right. But I feel like the legislature took some steps to set a firm foundation that we can build on, and we’ll see where some of these amendments will lead us.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, okay. Well, I mean I’m excited again. I kind of am. Rich has got me a little excited-
Chris Holifield: You got to try these things.
Tim Pickett: I still think there wasn’t any appetite for increasing patient caps this year. And hopefully next year, we can get around to that. That will be our big, hopefully, they can understand that I think it’s okay to have a couple of medical cannabis specialists around town. But other than that, I like this provisional card thing I think is my favorite. There’s some real benefits to having the 90 day renewal go away and just make that much more straightforward for people. So there are some things in there that I think are going to be good.
Chris Holifield: My only complaint is when are we going to be able to start bringing prices down? But I guess that’s not up to you guys really. That’s up to the pharmacies, I guess what they’re charging.
Rich Oborn: I think there were some efforts to decrease the prices that the total cost of being a medical cannabis patient in Utah, one of those-
Chris Holifield: I’m talking before the medicine is selling.
Rich Oborn: Right, and I think if you take the big picture, and think about the total cost of being a medical cannabis patient, you can focus on the healthcare transparency tool.
Tim Pickett: And you you can also focus on increasing the number of pharmacies by making a 15th. That in general should decrease prices overall.
Rich Oborn: Right. So when you look at the prices of a beginning medical cannabis program, I emphasize medical cannabis, medical only. If you compare us to Arizona or to Colorado or to Nevada, you’re comparing apples to oranges.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, because of rec, it’s completely different.
Rich Oborn: Right, but ours is a medical program. So if you compare us to the other medical only programs, we’re in the middle and we just barely started. So you ain’t seen nothing yet. That’s kind of what I think about when I think about where we’re at. A year has passed. It takes a while. It’s like a big stone and gosh, it’s slow at the first, right? Because it doesn’t have momentum, there’s a few little things that are rough, but it gets rolling, it gets rolling, it gets rolling.
Rich Oborn: And at the same time, we’re protecting patients. We’re protecting the public. Law enforcement becomes more aware of what’s happening. I think the federal government, we’re seeing more attention to medical cannabis and cannabis in general. But I think in Utah, for the foreseeable future, it’s going to be medical only. Things get rolling. So I hate to remind people about this, but it’s true that you just sometimes have to be patient with some of the realistic factors that are in place. We started moving a little bit quicker toward, I think true progress in our medical only program during the last session. When what we’ve talked about today actually begins to be implemented in 2021, that’s when we’ll be able to start to, I think, learn about the changes and see how this limited medical provider idea makes a difference, the controlled substance database.
Rich Oborn: Are they actually using that as a tool? Are people using the healthcare transparency tool? It just takes time for this big boulder to get moving more and more. But it will get, it’s moving quicker than it was before.
Tim Pickett: Oh, yeah, I’m just grateful it’s here, man.
Rich Oborn: Right. And we still have a goal of ensuring that patients get access under the supervision of a qualified medical provider and a pharmacist at a pharmacy that is more educated and is in the niche of medical cannabis and understands what products interact with what medications even better than we were when we started the program. So that’s the goal of Utah’s program. We want to make sure those connections between the patient and provider stay there, and we’re moving forward and I’m excited about the base that we’ve created and building on that.
Chris Holifield: I’m excited too. Do you have other questions? I guess we covered them all on here.
Tim Pickett: I mean, really I’m sure I’ll have questions for Rich tomorrow.
Chris Holifield: When people go to the EVS site, the EVS, what’s the website?
Tim Pickett: Well, they have the government website is medicalcannabis.utah.gov, and that would have all of this information too or eventually I guess it would all be up.
Rich Oborn: It will, right. So again, the the governor still hasn’t signed the bills we’ve talked about today. But that will happen I hear soon, we expect. And once those pass, we’ll be able to update our website with some fact sheets and some information where people can go for some of the general high level information. And it’s just important to keep in mind, these won’t launch immediately. A lot of the changes we’ve talked about, it will take us some time. But yeah, they can find more information at medicalcannabis.utah.gov. And we see our numbers growing more and more and more providers are joining the program. That number continues to increase, which is really healthy for our young program to see the number of providers continue to grow. Also, something that changed I’ll just stand with is that physician assistants no longer require-
Tim Pickett: We had a huge, huge win for PAs in Utah becoming essentially independent practitioners, but equivalent to the nurse practitioner, from an independent standpoint that after five years of practice, you do not need a supervising physician any longer in our role as PAs. It is a massive, massive win for PAs practicing. And having the ability now to be a QMP without a supervising physician, this QMP is just an added benefit to that. But it’s a big deal.
Rich Oborn: Right. And so who knows? I mean, the cost of getting service could decrease because of that to actual medical cannabis patients because of that change because that PA doesn’t have to have that supervising physician anymore. Because in the law, the former law, there was a requirement that that PA have a supervising physician who was also a qualified medical provider. So Tim operated like that, but in the future, he won’t.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I don’t have to. Yeah, I mean I caution all providers, please get medical cannabis malpractice. It’s really, really important before you go out and recommend any of this stuff and know what you’re getting into. But if you’ve got questions about that, and you’re a provider, you’re a PA out there, then reach out to me at utahmarijuana.org. I talk to PAs almost every, a couple of PAs and a couple of NPs every week, help people get connected with medical malpractice if they need it. We have great contacts for that. I don’t want to, I mean we can’t take care of all the patients but we would definitely be able to take care of a lot, but we definitely need more people who are actively involved in this program. Well, thanks for coming out Rich. We’re going to have, I’ll put a fact sheet and a blog post together utahmarijuana.org and at utahmarijuana.org/podcast with this episode. Chris posts those episodes every week.
Chris Holifield: Every Friday.
Tim Pickett: Every Friday at 4:20 in the morning.
Chris Holifield: Every Friday, 4:20 comes in your podcast feed. So make sure you’re subscribed.
Tim Pickett: And we’ll put these legislative updates there. So you can come there and you can get a highlight of all of these things that might affect you as a patient. And I think that will be a good place for people to go get a synopsis before the state or race the state to get it up.
Chris Holifield: Well, thank you so much, go subscribe to the podcast, follow us on Instagram.
Tim Pickett: Stay safe out there, everybody.
