Did you know that the state offers a free patient tracking journal to Medical Marijuana users? And what’s more, you can download it directly from the state’s Medical Cannabis website. It’s a PDF document you can save and reproduce as often as you like. It’s also pretty simple to use.
The document gives you space to write in the date, the product you’ve used, your dosage, and the method of delivery. There is also space to document how you are feeling before and after use. Finally, there is space to enter any side effects that you might have experienced.
Keeping track of your Medical Cannabis use might seem completely unnecessary. If so, we would like you to reconsider. There are three excellent reasons to keep track of what you’re doing.
At the top of the list is tracking what works as opposed to what doesn’t. If you’ve been to a Medical Cannabis dispensary, you know there are tons of products to choose from. Dispensaries have different strains and varieties of Medical Cannabis to choose from, as well as different delivery methods. You can go with ingestibles, topicals, vaping products, etc.
The thing is, many patients use more than one product. They find that a particular strain works very well for some symptoms while another strain relieves others. Patients prefer one delivery method or another depending on how they feel that day. Keeping track of it all is the best way to figure out what works for you. There’s no point in spending money on product that doesn’t work.
Your Medical Cannabis pharmacist is here to help you get the most out of the product you buy. They want you to have fewer seizures. They want you to experience as little pain as possible. But in order to do that, they need to know how different products affect you. Keeping track in a journal helps to provide your pharmacist with valuable information.
Medical Cannabis pharmacists fully understand cannabis and the endocannabinoid system. But they don’t know how a particular product affects you if you don’t tell them. One of the best ways to keep your pharmacist informed is to keep records. Then you don’t have to try to remember — just bring your journal with you every time you visit the dispensary.
Topping it all off is the practice of using your records as a shopping list of sorts. Assuming you use more than one product, you want to make sure you have enough on hand at all times. When you visit the dispensary, you want to be able to pick up whatever you need until the next visit. Your journal can help.
How does it work? Start with a base amount of your favorite products. You will already be keeping track of how much you use by filling out your journal. Then just take the journal with you to the dispensary. If your journal shows you used so many grams of a particular product, buy that much during your visit. Simple!
Remember that the state’s patient-tracking journal is a PDF document. You print it out so there are no worries of providing information to the state. You are merely keeping track of your Medical Cannabis usage to better understand what works for you, to help your pharmacist better understand, and to make it easier for you keep enough product on hand.
Believe it or not, we’re not just all about sticky, icky green cannabis flower here. Utah Therapeutic Health Center, UtahMarijuana.org’s affiliate clinic, cares about making our planet a greener place in all senses of the word. To show Mother Nature a little love this Earth Day, UTTHC took an evening last week to plant trees with the volunteer group Tree Utah.
Founded in 1988, the non-profit organization Tree Utah started as the brainchild of Salt Lake Tribune journalist Pepper Provenzano. In their own words, Tree Utah’s Community Tree Planting Program “helps make our schools and parks beautiful and inviting by planting and maintaining large trees. With newly planted trees, these areas will help improve the air, lower temperatures in our cities, and even reduce crime.” For us here at utahmarijuana.org, that’s all we needed to hear to want to help out.
In September 2020, Utah had a near-apocalyptic windstorm that took out many of the trees in the state. Giant trees that have outlived most of us were uprooted and pulled from the ground like dandelions. For days, fallen trees lined the streets and many lived without power as the storm took out power lines, cars, and even homes. In short: Utah needed more trees.
We couldn’t wait for Earth Day to help our community go green. (One could argue we’ve been helping our community go green for about a year now, no?) On Thursday, April 15th, the Utah Therapeutic Health Center crew bundled up, braved the cold rain, hail, and snow to plant trees in Utah’s beautiful International Peace Gardens. We planted two trees just outside of the England area of the gardens, which we so 
fittingly named Treech and Chong. (Treech pictured left.) Even in spite of the weather, the Tree Utah event helped give 13 trees a new home that evening.
How did you show your planet some love this holiday? Better yet, how do you show your planet love every day? Even little things like reusable water bottles and carpooling once a week help her feel better. As always, if Utah Therapeutic Health Center can help you feel better, please give us a call or reserve an appointment online.
Looking for another way to go green? Check out the Utah in the Weeds podcast, hosted by Chris Holifield and utahmarijuana.org founder Tim Pickett. Tim and Chris chat with Medical Cannabis patients and those in the industry about everything from laws to favorite strains. It’s a must-listen for those looking to learn more about the Utah cannabis space and community.
It’s not uncommon for Medical Cannabis patients to use terms like ‘cannabis’, ‘marijuana’, and ‘hemp’ interchangeably. It can easily lead to confusion. Throw in discussions on THC and CBD and things get even more confusing. There is a reason for this: people just don’t understand the terms.
An incredibly wise person once said that the key to having difficult discussions is to define your terms and avoid pronouns. Regardless though, defining the terms is important when you’re talking about Medical Marijuana.
For example, cannabis and hemp are not two separate plants. Neither are hemp and marijuana. Hemp and marijuana are both species of cannabis sativa. The biggest differences between the two are the amount of THC they contain and the viability of their seeds.
Hemp and Medical Cannabis are both legally allowed in Utah. Most of the hemp grown in the state is grown for industrial use. Whether for industrial, medical, or personal use, growers have to abide by the federal THC threshold.
Federal law defines hemp as cannabis sativa plants with a THC content of 0.3% or less. This is achieved through breeding. As long as a plant’s THC profile comes in under the threshold, it’s fine. If it exceeds it though, it is no longer hemp – it is marijuana.
According to a 2019 article published by the Salt Lake Tribune, authorities destroyed more than 16,300 plants that year because they came in above the 0.3% limit. In the industry, this is what’s known as ‘testing hot’. Licensed growers cannot grow hot plants without a separate license. And even at that, doing so is for medical applications only.
A few months ago, we published a blog post discussing the main differences between CBD and THC. Those differences mean everything when it comes to classifying Medical Cannabis products. Still, both CBD and THC are medically viable, which is to say they can both be used as medicines.
So what happens to hemp that is grown for medicinal purposes? It is sent to processors who extract the THC and CBD. These extractions are subject to the same federal threshold. Extractors who produce products with more than 0.3% THC content are now producing Medical Cannabis products.
They can do a lot more with CBD. This explains why there are so many CBD-infused products on the market. And yet those products are often confused with Medical Cannabis products because many people don’t know the difference between CBD and THC.
What it really boils down to is a lack of solid education. People just don’t know the terms. This is true on so many levels. From legislators to retailers and consumers, a lot of people don’t clearly understand the finer points of cannabis, hemp, marijuana, THC, and CBD.
As long as the Beehive State has agreed to legalize Medical Marijuana, it’s probably a good idea to follow up with a more robust educational program. Maybe it’s time to start teaching this stuff in our schools. It is definitely time to begin educating doctors and pharmacists.
We’ve learned a lot about Medical Cannabis and hemp over the last couple of years. There is still a lot more to learn though. Education is the key. The more we know about the many benefits of the cannabis plant, the better prepared we will be to use it to our full advantage.
Cannabis has been cultivated for industrial and other purposes for thousands of years. You would think that there would be little confusion as a result. But sadly, this is not the case. People cannot properly define the terms, and until they can, there will be this confusion.
Medical Cannabis patient and advocate Carlos Lopez is Chris and Tim’s guest for episode 54 of Utah and the Weeds. Like so many other patients, Lopez has a fascinating story of how he came to Medical Cannabis as a prescription opioid user.
Lopez was born in 1988 and grew up in the DARE era. [04:41] He even completed the DARE program in middle school. What he learned from that program kept him away from drugs until an accident during his junior year in high school.
Lopez suffered an injury to his eye after being shot in the face with a BB gun. [06:33] The BB penetrated his eye socket and caused nerve damage. His doctors put him on ibuprofen in the weeks following surgery to remove the BB. [08:39] The ibuprofen eventually gave way to opioids, which doctors were gradually increasing to compensate for Lopez’ tolerance.
Some 16 years later, he still suffers debilitating migraines and nerve pain. He was introduced to cannabis by a friend during his senior year in high school. Lopez says he found instant relief. He began using cannabis to self-medicate and has since stopped using opioids altogether.[10:27]
It was the Utah in the Weeds podcast that introduced Lopez to the idea of getting his Medical Cannabis card late last year. [12:45] As an avid user, Lopez is also committed to research and education. He follows all the growers in Utah along with the products they are producing.
Above and beyond his story, Lopez spoke with Tim and Chris about Utah’s supply problem. [27:51] The trio briefly talked about how the problem will only get worse as more people get their cards. There was also a brief discussion on some of the different products and delivery methods Lopez uses. [43:51] It was a great discussion from start to finish.
Chris Holifield: So yeah, let’s welcome everybody out today to this episode of Utah in the Weeds. My name’s Chris Holifield.
Tim Pickett: And I’m Tim Pickett, Medical Cannabis Expert in Utah and a provider here in today’s episode.
Chris Holifield: Oh man, I am so excited to play this one.
Tim Pickett: We were waiting for this for a while, right?
Chris Holifield: Yeah, this is with Carlos Lopez. This is a Utah Cannabis patient here in Utah. This guy — he’s the biggest advocate.
Tim Pickett: He’s the number one member of the Utah Cannabis Fan Club.
Chris Holifield: But in a good way.
Tim Pickett: He really is.
Chris Holifield: This guy’s got such a great story. I was so excited to have him on the show and share it, just listen this conversation and you’ll know what I’m talking about.
Tim Pickett: This was one of my favorite conversations. He has a really, really good story. Talking about his-
Chris Holifield: I don’t want to give too many spoilers, though.
Tim Pickett: I know, right. Talking about his injury and how that affected-
Chris Holifield: How cannabis really saved his life.
Tim Pickett: And how he got back into cannabis, or how he got into cannabis in the first place is just fascinating.
Tim Pickett: Okay, so a couple of housekeeping things.
Chris Holifield: 4/20’s coming up on-
Tim Pickett: 4/20 is coming up next Tuesday.
Chris Holifield: So depending on when you’re listening to this, this comes out the Friday before 4/20. So if you’re listening to this before 4/20, we’ve got some events.
Tim Pickett: That’s right. So one event that I’ll mention is a patient drive that we’re doing in partnership with EDM Cannabis Shop, CBD Shop on 7100 South and State Street. If you want an appointment for this, it’s going to be food trucks and music and there’s a pretty steep discount. This is not a listed event online. You’ve got to call their shop to get an appointment. EDM Cannabis Shop, 7100 South and State. Check that out if you really feel like you need to get in for a card evaluation, you can do that.
Chris Holifield: Then the big events at Dragonfly.
Tim Pickett: Dragonfly.
Chris Holifield: They actually posted some on Instagram here. I don’t know if you wanted to mention it Tim, or I can just even read the little flyer here. It just says, “Utah Canna Fest. It’s a community event featuring Utah Cannabis industry leaders, local artisan booths, food trucks, 4/20 deals, raffles and giveaways,” and then they’re going to introduce the Utah Patient Subsidy Program, brought to you by the Utah Patient’s Coalition, that’s Mario’s group, isn’t it?
Tim Pickett: Well, it’s Desiree Hennessy-
Chris Holifield: That’s right, Desiree Hennessy.
Tim Pickett: Desiree Hennessy runs that group. She’s going to announce that program in partnership with, and there’s more than Dragonfly involved in the Subsidy Program, than just Dragonfly, but they are definitely the biggest, they sponsor the opening of the event. We’re going to give away a couple of free visits in the raffle, so some free evaluations.
Tim Pickett:
There’s going to be some other really good gifts, so come down.
Chris Holifield:
And we want to recording some of the podcast, so if you see Tim or I and you want to say a few words, say “Hey, I’d love to say a few words on the podcast,” and then that way we can record with you.
Tim Pickett: That’s right.
Chris Holifield: I don’t know exactly what we’ll be doing with the podcast. But I have a few ideas.
Tim Pickett: I don’t know what time we’ll be recording but I’ll be there most all of the day.
Chris Holifield: Says this is 11:00 to 7:00 and they’re right downtown, 711 South State Street. Right across from Sapa, if you know where that is, the old Sears building downtown.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, that’s going to be an exciting event. And then I think all of the all of the pharmacies have discount programs surrounding 4/20, kind of the cannabis holiday, Cannabis Christmas.
Chris Holifield: Cannabis Christmas. Anything else going on with utahmarijuana.org that you want to discuss?
Tim Pickett: We could open up, we could just mention it. We’re going to open up our Provo location for evaluations starting May 1st, again, so Utah County will have just more access down there. All kinds of fun things going on, just stay tuned to the podcast.
Chris Holifield: And utahmarijuana.org is Instagram-med to go follow you guys there to see what you guys have got going on. Utahmarijuana.org/podcast, go there. We’ve got 53 other episodes up there, so I know it’s a lot but there’s some good content up there. You can learn a lot about the program here in Utah, you can learn a lot about the people here. But there’s a lot of good information there.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, it’s a great place to go. I’m excited for people to listen to this.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, Carlos Lopez, let’s get into this one. Like I said, he’s a cannabis patient here in Utah. He’s got a great story about some different pain issues that he had to deal with and how cannabis has really helped him take the bull by the horns, so to say, and take life on.
Chris Holifield: So anyways, let’s get into that conversation. Here we go.
Chris Holifield: Your first time you used cannabis, how you got introduced to it, let’s go back there for you.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, so as I was saying, I’m a ’90s kid, born in ’88. So the first time I was introduced, I’m ”just say no” era. I grew up in grade school in DARE program. They embedded that in my head. I did that before I started class, I did that… there was an after program, you did that almost on a daily. And I got the t-shirt with the lion, graduated.
Chris Holifield: I remember the DARE t-shirt.
Carlos Lopez: Uh-huh. For some kids it was probably whatever, but I was only in fourth, fifth grade. It stuck. In my head, I’m thinking this is the evil weed. The government, like I was saying, the whole reefer madness. That was in my head. That was a mental thing. It was a mental thing. It was, “No, stay away. Smoking’s bad.”
Chris Holifield: So, of course, you believed it.
Carlos Lopez: I believed it, right. As an adolescent, right. So I’m growing up, middle school, high school goes along. I stayed away from it. I hung around with kids that did it. “It just doesn’t do anything for me,” that was my cop out, “It doesn’t do anything for me.”
Chris Holifield: Did you grow up here in Utah?
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, I grew up right here in West Valley, Kearns.
Chris Holifield: So that’s why I was kind of curious, the area. That makes — I mean, Utah, I could imagine Utah, especially.
Tim Pickett: That’s an interesting way to put it, right. “It doesn’t do anything for me.”
Carlos Lopez: That was my-
Tim Pickett: That’s your go-to, right?
Carlos Lopez: That was the way I-
Tim Pickett: I remember-
Carlos Lopez: Instead of just say no, because the DARE program was “Just say no.” And that worked too, but by the time I-
Tim Pickett: But that doesn’t work in some of these… It’s like these kids have… It’s a little bit of peer pressure. It’s not like direct pressure, it’s like you want to fit in, you want to be part of the group.
Carlos Lopez: Definitely.
Tim Pickett: And that’s an interesting way to do it. I haven’t heard that. But I remember kids in high school and college saying that to me. Now, I’ve got to go back and think, “Huh, was that just you not wanting to do it?”
Carlos Lopez: No, that was just from being young and remembering the program and just sticking to it. I thought I was doing the right thing. I thought I was doing the right thing and doing good at school. So school goes along and it wasn’t until it was the end of my junior going into senior, I had an accident. I was shot in the face with a CO2 pistol, and the BB penetrated my left eye socket and it rolled behind my left eye, and it rested there. And it wasn’t until my mom took me, a week later, from when the swelling went down to take X-rays, that we saw a little dot in my skull.
Carlos Lopez: The doctor’s like “There’s a BB in there. We’ve got to take that out.” I was scared. I was at that time, I don’t want you to cut my face. And, “No, no. We can do precision. We can easily pull your eye out so far and we work around it, put you out.” I said, “Okay.” We made the date, and it happened.
Carlos Lopez: I still have it to this day, the little BB jar, plastic jar with my X-ray. That’s actually what I took when I went to Empathetix to get my stuff for the first time. That was the moment where my life changed because from there, ever since that surgery, from waking up, they did great. They did a great job, got it out, they were recording it but I don’t want to watch it. I have a weak stomach so I can’t watch stuff like that, so I didn’t watch the video, but I took the BB and the X-rays.
Tim Pickett: Right, I mean you’ve got to have something.
Chris Holifield: How long ago was this?
Carlos Lopez: ‘05. Yeah, to answer your question, where you started, this was in ’05 this happened.
Chris Holifield: So 16 years ago.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, 16 years’ish ago and I was put on steroids and cortisone shots, because I used to have migraines. Ever since that shot, I’ve had these horrible spike migraines and this pressure that builds up, because on this left side of my face, when the BB hit, there was nerve damage, so it goes like down this along the side of my face. So I have this outside nerve pain, almost if you could imagine the tip of a knife, but 1,000 of them throughout that area. And then on the inside, it triggers the migraines and the headaches, so it’s like between the two of them, it’s almost unbearable.
Chris Holifield: So what were you using for pain then?
Carlos Lopez: At that time, they were putting me on opioids, like pain pills. I was taking the lower prescription, because I was starting off with over the counter, Ibuprofen. It wasn’t cutting it. From there, the doctor put me on some lower dose Loratab and then the pain was still throbbing and it was just gradually going. The doses were increasing, the opioid amount was getting more, I don’t know if you call it more potent?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, you build up tolerance.
Carlos Lopez: It was like over, for me, it wasn’t until the end of high school my senior year that after doing the pills for almost a year and it would affect my digestive system, I wasn’t able to use the restroom like I normally would. It would affect my appetite. I just was…
Chris Holifield: Were you bedridden?
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, absolutely. I was numb… I would turn myself off. I almost feel scratchy when I’m taking my medicine. Just not myself. I was like, “This is not me.” I just didn’t like who I was becoming over that year.
Tim Pickett: What people don’t understand is that you walk in here. You look, there is no physical sign that you have this, that you’ve had this injury, or that you’ve had this opioid prescriptions. It’s not visible. And people forget that.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah. It wasn’t until like I said, like you said the tolerance builds, and eventually but it doesn’t stop the pain, because I get this building pressure, where it’s almost like a hot iron mixed with a sledgehammer whacked against your head, this is when the migraines trigger.
Carlos Lopez: And then obviously I can tolerate the knife pain more than that. On the outside, but so it wasn’t until after the shots and the pills that a friend of mine growing up with, one of my best friends actually, he had knee pain playing football. Anyways he used to use cannabis and smoke. Weed back then, we’d call it, or bud whatever.
Carlos Lopez: And it wasn’t until then, we were hanging out and he was, “You know what?” And I was having an episode and I didn’t have my pills with me. And he’s like, “Look, try this dude.” At the time I was already almost done with school. I was thinking, “Oh, what the hell. It seems to help. He’s my friend, he’s not going to steer me the wrong way because we grew up together. He’s my best friend.”
Carlos Lopez: And he had some kind of OG or something, I can’t remember if it was a Kush, and that was my first introduction to real cannabis, like full inhalation and I remember hitting that flower and it was just like, just relief. If you can imagine things felt tight and gritty and it was just like things soften and relaxed. Just that pain, that pressure built up and that iron hot just faded.
Chris Holifield: So when he let you use cannabis, were you familiar with the term medical cannabis, at all?
Carlos Lopez: Not at all.
Chris Holifield: You were just used to it kind of as a recreational thing.
Carlos Lopez: 100% DARE program, just say no. This is evil weed.
Tim Pickett: But you hadn’t done any research on it or anything.
Carlos Lopez: Oh, other than like growing up and what the school taught us, no.
Tim Pickett: You’re just introduced to it-
Carlos Lopez: So I may be a little ignorant in that aspect, I guess I could say.
Tim Pickett: But that’s-
Carlos Lopez: But I just thought they were teaching us the right thing, because it was school. I don’t know.
Chris Holifield: You probably haven’t had a ton of opportunity to talk about your story, I would imagine.
Carlos Lopez: No. It’s been secret.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, well, I mean it’s-
Carlos Lopez: This is honestly the first time I’m really opening up.
Chris Holifield: Well, thank you.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, we appreciate that, and I think vocalization the story to yourself sometimes, really makes a big impact on how you’re hearing your own story out loud and you’re like, “Oh, my God. This is real.”
Chris Holifield: You said you got your card a year ago?
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, so it was towards the end of last year, I finally was able to be legal. Visiting Empathetix and doing research and actually what got me to it was your Utah in the work, following your IG handle [crosstalk 00:13:01]-
Tim Pickett: Oh yeah, @utah_marijuana_org.
Carlos Lopez: I was starting to hear your podcast and I was starting to tie two and two. I was like, okay yeah. I started learning more from these people like I was talking about, with Zach, with Mario going way back, and I was like, “Okay, I needed to do research. I’m paying for insurance, what am I doing?” But I guess insurance doesn’t cover it anyway.
Tim Pickett: Right.
Carlos Lopez: I figured dealing with what I have with I have the medical records I have from my incident to the surgery to the post surgeries to the script of the papers that they have me trying out. The A’s, B’s, and C’s that don’t work.
Chris Holifield: You have enough documentation.
Tim Pickett: Oh yeah, absolutely.
Carlos Lopez: I get it, you can’t physically see it, but mine’s all internal.
Chris Holifield: So are you off of all of opioids?
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, absolutely. It was then. From that moment that I tried that whatever it was, I think it was OG, I can’t remember, Skywalker, whatever it was. I remember him saying, “OG Kush,” it was love at first sight. It was all the relief without the icky side effects that I get from pharmaceuticals.
Tim Pickett: Instead of feeling worse, you felt better.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, I felt better. I didn’t have, like I said, that throbbing and that iron sensation from my chronic headaches, and I also, this is before my accident but I’ve had chronic insomnia, ever since I’ve been little. I just… it’s just the way it is.
Chris Holifield: As do we all-
Tim Pickett: You’ve got the magic pill, right?
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, so it just seemed to solve so many things that these pills can’t really do, in the long run. And it seems like those, not just harm you but they kill you. So I figured this is like… I started to do more research and look into the plant more and there’s still way more I need to learn, but figure out THC and CBD and all these other ones, like CBC and CBG and CBN and THCV and THCA and all this, it keeps going. The list goes and goes.
Carlos Lopez: There’s so many medicinal benefits that were… so eye opening. I was just in shock. I was like, “Wow, this is what the government’s been repressing (from) us, all this time.”
Tim Pickett: It does seem like that, doesn’t it?
Carlos Lopez: They’re keeping us from this natural, alternative medicine.
Tim Pickett: When you tried in 2005 and then you start using it and basically your options are smoke flower?
Carlos Lopez: Well, yeah. At the time, basically I had a friend that his cousin basically had what we would call the plug, the connect. And I had flower on me at that time… We had great, different varieties, great strains. Big, beautiful buds. I think they were coming from California or Oregon, I can’t remember at the time. Whether it was you wanted flower, dabs weren’t as big back then. It was mostly just flower. And then a little bit later on, maybe five, 10 years as down the line is when carts maybe started to pop up.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, it doesn’t seem like I ever saw a cart until 2015.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: I remember the first time I ever saw a cart.
Carlos Lopez: It was weird.
Chris Holifield: I was like, “get out of here.” I just thought it was, “Oh, my gosh.”
Carlos Lopez: Like what the heck.
Chris Holifield:
All I knew was you put flower in a little glass pipe.
Carlos Lopez: That’s what I was doing.
Tim Pickett: It was either a glass pipe or what you could make.
Chris Holifield: These are cartridges, get out of here! Now, they’re the hot thing. Now everybody’s got carts.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, so honestly just between that and obviously as time rolled on and I’ve been working, like I said, it’s a steady job. I’m fortunate that I’ve had a consistent living, 15 now plus years and-
Tim Pickett: Do you believe cannabis helped you?
Carlos Lopez: Absolutely. Cannabis saved my life.
Chris Holifield: It helped make you a functioning member of society.
Carlos Lopez: It’s given me back things that I wouldn’t ever have that the pills they give you bedridden, they turn you off from life. You’re numb. Where cannabis, almost puts life in me. I’m able to work longer, better, more efficient. I can be around my family more often and not hurt.
Chris Holifield: And when you mentioned insomnia.
Carlos Lopez: I can sleep.
Chris Holifield: There’s nothing worse than getting up the next day and not sleeping, dude like, “Oh man, I’ve got an hour’s sleep. Now, I’m expected to go to work and be nice to my fellow employees.”
Carlos Lopez: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Nice, cordial, obey the rules.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Now, you have… So it’s not really just the pain relief, it’s the added benefit of now you sleep better, so you actually have less pain because you sleep better and you can recover better.
Carlos Lopez: Yes, I get a better night’s sleep between being able to combat my insomnia and the pain, I’m forever grateful for this plant.
Tim Pickett: Tell me about your tolerance. Your tolerance at the beginning, obviously pretty low. Everybody starts out pretty low.
Carlos Lopez: Oh yeah, for sure.
Tim Pickett: What’s your use look like? Has it gone up and down?
Carlos Lopez: It’s been a rollercoaster really. Honestly, there are some times that I’ve done tolerance breaks even, believe it nor not, as much as you think I’m consuming, there are times-
Tim Pickett: No, the reason I ask because I don’t know your use-
Carlos Lopez: No, no, right. Just to give you an idea of what it looks like.
Tim Pickett: Right, like I’m assuming that it is going to go up sometimes, go down sometimes.
Carlos Lopez: It is, definitely. The more I find the more I use, for me, for example, I like to start my day with dabs, I don’t know what it is, but from waking up and having sore joints and your muscles, it helps get things a little bit loose and relaxed, and between I get my dab in me. Because I’m working on the office, I work a lot of the keyboard, the mouse, I take my balm, I’d always rub my balm on, that’s really effective. It helps my wrist and my right shoulder and I’m ready to go. Between my good dab, and if I don’t have a dab, then definitely flower is what I’m resorting to.
Carlos Lopez: Then gummies. You’ve got to be careful, because sometimes I overdo it and it can be too much at once. And you’re done. Like I’m sorry, “I might have to clock out for the day.”
Tim Pickett: We always recommend that people start without-
Carlos Lopez: Low and slow, for sure.
Tim Pickett: Like don’t start with edibles. They’re hard to adjust to.
Carlos Lopez: It is.
Tim Pickett: I know-
Chris Holifield: Well they creep up you, man.
Tim Pickett: They creep up on you and you get two hours in and you’re like, “Wow, if this gets any worse, I’m in trouble.” Well, you might be an hour in and you might be thinking, “Wow, if this gets any worse,” like you said, “I’ve got to clock out.”
Tim Pickett: But they’re so convenient because they’re very discrete.
Carlos Lopez: Absolutely.
Tim Pickett: They’re relatively healthy from a use standpoint and a side effects standpoint. But they’re a little tricky.
Carlos Lopez: They are.
Tim Pickett: And there’s been a ton, like… man have you seen? It seems like the feeds are all about these drinks and these added things, you’re adding to a drink.
Chris Holifield: Oh, for like THC?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, THC.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, I’ve seen that. I think is it Select that has those new drops? I think I was actually-
Tim Pickett: Yeah, you add them to, it is, Curaleaf owns that company. They’re not available in Utah. So for any listeners-
Chris Holifield: Yeah, I was going to say, I haven’t seen these.
Tim Pickett: You can’t have drinks in Utah, and you can’t technically have edibles in Utah. You can have gelatinous cubes-
Carlos Lopez: That’s the gummies we get.
Tim Pickett: Which is the gummies you get, which as of April 1st, they won’t be coated in sugar.
Chris Holifield: Wait, wait. Tell me more about these. Because I think we talked about that.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, we talked a little bit to Rich Oborn on this.
Carlos Lopez: How is that going to work with all these sugar-coated ones?
Chris Holifield: Why can’t they have sugar?
Tim Pickett: I don’t think it’s the Department of Health. It wasn’t their rule. I think it was the Department of Agriculture. But because you can have gelatinous cubes, but you can’t have edibles, my understanding is the sugar coating makes them more candy like and so is more attractive to kids-
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, the youth.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, more tasty. So they’re going to essentially individually wrap every single gelatinous cube to keep them from sticking together, because they only use-
Chris Holifield: You know, I think there’s a lot more things to worry about like the candy aisle in a grocery store or-
Tim Pickett: Right? Or the sugar consumption of American children…
Chris Holifield: Like come on, let’s-
Carlos Lopez: Get real.
Chris Holifield: Yeah to me there’s a lot more to worry about than if my gelatinous cube has some sugar on it.
Tim Pickett: Maybe we should just educate people to buy a lock-in case, put their medicine into the locked cabinet and keep it safe.
Chris Holifield: Right.
Carlos Lopez: So, there you go.
Tim Pickett: Likely just as effective. We like to hound those guys on little things like this. And I’m sure they think the same thing, they’re like, “Ah, I don’t know but it probably seems like the right thing to do to adjust the rules.”
Tim Pickett: Anyway, sorry, we got off topic.
Carlos Lopez: No, no.
Chris Holifield: That’s the joy of a podcast.
Tim Pickett: But the use, right? Have you gotten up to the point where you’ve been using an ounce a week? Or, an ounce a month?
Carlos Lopez: No, but what I do is like to mix it up. So I used to, before becoming legal, I used to really just stick one way. I’d use heavy flower, maybe sometimes I’d switch it to dabs. I kind of flip flopped to be honest. And then once becoming legal and now having these options, and I experiment, so I like to branch out. I did start here at Wholesome, that’s where I brought my letter because I was down on Dover Street, at Empathetix. It was seven, 10 minutes away. So I didn’t realize I was married to Wholesome, you know, until I got my card, at the time.
Carlos Lopez: So it’s the farthest from me, because I’m all the way in West Valley.
Tim Pickett: Oh, shoot.
Chris Holifield: Because you had a letter.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, because I had a letter, but I immediately had already paid the fee before walking out of Empathetix because I did the online fee, so it was already pending to convert. But it still took like 10, I can’t remember how long it was, but it was a little bit less than two weeks, but it felt forever.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. And it does, and there are going to be, so that everybody knows, they are going to upgrade the system and they passed a rule to allow us to give cards immediately. It won’t be effective until later this year, October, November, but then you’ll go back to this system where you can leave your QMP, you can go right over. Like here. We’re right next to Wholesome, recording. You could leave here and you could walk right through the door, check in and boom, purchase. Just like the letter program.
Carlos Lopez: That’s something to look forward to.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, with access though. You can kind of switch it up. You can buy a little. You don’t have to buy a ton.
Carlos Lopez: They kind of opened the floodgates, if you will. Not like that, but it really introduced a whole new realm of products and varieties. I didn’t have that opportunity before. And so I do, I’m like that trial and error guy. I first try it, if it works then I will stick behind it. If it doesn’t, then axed off the list.
Chris Holifield: Do you have a favorite strain?
Carlos Lopez: Definitely. Overall? Or, here?
Chris Holifield: Something that you’ve into been lately, both.
Tim Pickett: Both.
Chris Holifield: Overall.
Carlos Lopez: Overall, I’m a huge OG fan. Anything really OG, Skywalker OG from Perfect Earth seems to really kick me good. Hit me where I need to be.
Chris Holifield: I haven’t been up to Perfect Earth yet.
Tim Pickett: No, we need those guys to come on the podcast, but they’re growing some pretty good product up there, too.
Carlos Lopez: It does. I’ve been keeping my eyes on them. They have a pretty interesting, beautiful looking grow, so we’ll see what they produce.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. And you follow pretty much all the growers and you know when the drops are happening.
Carlos Lopez: That’s right, yeah.
Tim Pickett: So essentially we could just follow you, and we would know.
Carlos Lopez: I wish.
Tim Pickett: You’d be like the kayak of the cannabis industry. You’ll keep track of it all for us and you’ll let us know.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, I don’t mind at all helping. I mean honestly, ever since this, not just this podcast, but with the whole program we have and the IG, I get DM’s daily, to this day. People I don’t know, and they ask me, “Hey, how was that?” Or, “Hey, what was this?” Because, certain things that I have tried that people have known about. Things that may have worked for me, and that didn’t work for me.
Chris Holifield: That’s right because on your Instagram, you post all the stuff you’re getting.
Carlos Lopez: I have had most of them that are definitely ones that work for me and I think there are very, very few let known didn’t cut it, basically. The majority of them, yes. They’re winners, for me anyway.
Chris Holifield: What about your family and friends, man? What do they think about your cannabis use?
Carlos Lopez: They’re, honestly, they think it’s probably the best thing that happened to me. From the ones, at least the closest ones that’ve seen me at my darkest time, back then, fully support what I’m doing and what’s going on in Utah as far as progressing hopefully, legalization’s. Because everyone should have the right to enjoy this God-given plant. No one should be deprived of this. We’re all dealing with something in some form or fashion.
Chris Holifield: Well, yeah exactly. It’s kind of like who said that? One of the pharmacists I think that we talked to said that we chatted with them but then they were like, “We all kind of use it medicinally, even if we’re not -”
Tim Pickett: All use is medicinal.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, because you’re using it for a reason.
Tim Pickett: People that if you interview cannabis users, you’re using it for all kinds of things. You’re using it for the Saturday afternoon creative jam session. You’re using it when you paint. You’re using it to sleep, to suppress dreams if you have PTSD. Think of all the things, and this is all just something that somebody who has access to it, would just use it for, it’s almost like an instinct.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, exactly. No it is, absolutely.
Tim Pickett: You reach for something that helps you feel better, or and if it didn’t work, then-
Carlos Lopez: You move on.
Tim Pickett: You move on.
Carlos Lopez: I mean, that’s just the way it works. That’s the rules of logic, or nature of the law, however you want to say it, or put it. I’m just grateful for not just the platform but seeing how far Utah has come. It’s made me, at least happy. I know there’s a lot of people that aren’t happy and I get also DM’s of that, too. Don’t get it like it’s all sunshine, don’t get it twisted.
Chris Holifield: Do people DM you?
Tim Pickett: Oh yeah, they’re-
Carlos Lopez: Absolutely.
Chris Holifield: What kind of stuff? I mean, they think cannabis should be illegal?
Carlos Lopez: I’m mental. I’m getting bamboozled, you’re getting ripped off. Dah, de, dah, dah.
Chris Holifield: Okay, I didn’t know-
Carlos Lopez: So it all comes down to the price.
Chris Holifield: If they were saying-
Carlos Lopez: It all honestly comes down to not just the price, but I also understand and I can express their frustrations in a sense that I do think we need more cultivators. Eight isn’t enough, for our state. And seeing the new magazine, which is awesome by the way, by Cole. Shout out to Cole.
Chris Holifield: Faces, yeah-
Carlos Lopez: Awesome, Salt Baked City magazine, a beautiful layout showing all the pharmacies labeling on the addresses, numbers. But it’s not enough. What about all those rural areas, what about them?
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: It really is, like I’ve been thinking about Justice in St. George. They’re going to open in a couple of months.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, I heard that? 4/20 maybe?
Tim Pickett: There’s going to be one… Oh, if they make it to… They’ve got a lot of work to do. Shout out to those guys, though. They could pull it off. But they’re the only place. You’ve got to buy there, or you’ve got to go up to Bloom and Cedar City.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Who will open about the same time. I mean these are… There isn’t another industry that you would have that limited stock.
Carlos Lopez: No, not at all.
Chris Holifield: Well, St. George’s is full of old people so I imagine they’re all going to get their card.
Carlos Lopez: Definitely.
Chris Holifield: You’d think, right?
Tim Pickett: The more it gets legitimized the better it will be. And I think-
Carlos Lopez: That’s my hope. That’s my hope. And that’s what I get knocked down on all the time, too is because-
Tim Pickett: Really?
Carlos Lopez: Depends on when they’re like, “You need to put more pressure on so and so.” And I get that. You do need to do your part, but you can do easy things, like make some emails, make phone calls. We call could do that.
Tim Pickett: Sure and you’re not going to get it all the way.
Carlos Lopez: No, you’re never going to get your cake and eat it, too. Right, it’s all in good time. That’s my optimism is, in good time. I didn’t even think Utah would be legal, that I could be doing this right now. Like 32, 2020, I never thought this would happen. Even thinking back when I I visited all of our neighboring states, Cali, Colorado, that’s my favorite, that’s priceless. Oregon, New Mexico, Arizona. I’ve been all over just around us and everyone’s got their own sweet pieces of the pie, but Utah’s done something uncovering these extra cannabinoids.
Carlos Lopez: We could really do something here and changing I think the whole market as far as the medical industry.
Tim Pickett: Have you been watching that?
Carlos Lopez: Absolutely.
Tim Pickett: Compared to other states that are surrounding us, and this is something I guess I haven’t paid a lot of attention to is, are other states focusing on the medicinal qualities of the other cannabinoids.
Carlos Lopez: No, it’s just Utah.
Chris Holifield: Colorado’s more of a rec state.
Carlos Lopez: Correct.
Chris Holifield: They’re just saying, “Just sell THC. Just sell THC.”
Carlos Lopez: Well, between you, I love your and Blake’s show, I’m on that, on it like bonnet. Honestly I can’t get enough of it.
Chris Holifield: That’s a great show by the way.
Carlos Lopez: It’s amazing.
Tim Pickett: Thanks, it’s really fun to produce and we feel like it’s getting a little bit better as we go. And for listeners who don’t what it is, its Discover Marijuana on YouTube and it’s Blake Smith, from Zion Medicinal who is a bioanalytical chemist, knows a lot about the details.
Carlos Lopez: Oh yeah, he’s a cool guy.
Tim Pickett: He’s like the mad scientist, and I’m trying to make sense of it all, bring it back to usable-
Carlos Lopez: You’re awesome.
Tim Pickett: Usable info. But it’s a fun place for people to go, get more info, like legitimate. We talk about the good and the bad.
Carlos Lopez: Right, that’s what I like You guys do always bring the truth with what’s happening, not just with the plant but other… Shine a light with the laws and stuff and making sure we’re in the know’s and the now’s and being safe and things like that.
Tim Pickett: Right.
Carlos Lopez: Utah’s a little different than other medical states, that’s for sure.
Chris Holifield: Oh, yeah.
Carlos Lopez: Way different, shall I say.
Chris Holifield: But you know what though? The more I learn about these other states, I find out that there’s some other states with goofy stuff, too.
Tim Pickett: I know, we were talking about Florida.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, Florida.
Tim Pickett: Talking about how they were trying to limit the-
Carlos Lopez: THC.
Tim Pickett: … percentage of THC to 10%.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, I heard about that. I was like, “Get out of here.”
Carlos Lopez: Crazy.
Tim Pickett: And then in Georgia, the law that they’re working on now will allow people to buy two weeks worth of flower, that’s it. You can buy a two weeks supply and then you have to… So you have to purchase a lot, which is hard for people who live far away from a pharmacy.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, who decides what’s two weeks supply? That’s the problem.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, exactly.
Chris Holifield: So back to you were mentioning how we need more than eight growers in Utah.
Carlos Lopez: Yes.
Chris Holifield: Did you run into, especially you’re a pretty heavy user of cannabis, or use it pretty regularly. Did you run into any problems with supply? I still run into problems with supply.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, I do every day. I do. To this day, I run into problems with supply. Sometimes I’ll try some flower that I really find that meshes well with me, and then they won’t have it some days. And-
Chris Holifield: Or ever again.
Carlos Lopez: Or ever again, for that matter. “Oh, find us on the next batch, three or whatever months from now, or whatever.” Then obviously, I’m more concentrates, that’s my thing. As I love my concentrates, and I’m grateful with what we have now, but it just seems like we need so much more. Or it just needs to be so much more-
Chris Holifield: You need a lot more product to make more concentrate.
Carlos Lopez: And that’s what limiting the… It’s just all tying hand-in-hand where it’s just like…
Tim Pickett: Yeah, obviously it’s gotten better. As the cultivators have started growing a little bit more, the supply has gotten better.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, it has, but you’re choking the chicken where you’ve got to feed the geese, kind of thing. Well, excuse my language.
Tim Pickett: No, no. But you’re-
Carlos Lopez: I just wish there was more, I think would allow them to focus on longer growth than turning over these 60 day grows, which I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with. They’ve helped me, but they could be getting so much more from the plant maturing more than these speed cycle things, which still work. I’m not knocking that.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, but they’re doing that because they feel like they have to.
Carlos Lopez: Right, they’re putting them in a corner, right, and I get their aspect, too. You are kind of-
Chris Holifield: Speed growing the weed?
Carlos Lopez: Right.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, shortening the…
Carlos Lopez: There are certain strains or genetics.
Chris Holifield: Now educate me. Is that not good to speed grow things?
Tim Pickett: It depends. You’re growing a cultivar that is going to be able to harvest fast because it’s going to be harvest, fast. Does that make sense? You’re growing a cultivar that you can harvest fast because of the quickness with which you can harvest it. That’s the only reason you’re picking that strain.
Carlos Lopez: Or what’s going to yield the most.
Tim Pickett: Or yield, and in the long run, that doesn’t work because that isn’t necessarily the best medicine.
Carlos Lopez: Or the best thing for the patient.
Tim Pickett: Right. It’s just the best thing for getting flower into the pharmacies right now.
Carlos Lopez: Right.
Tim Pickett: And to your point, Carlos, the idea of more growers isn’t necessarily that we will have less profits. I think the industry looks at it that way. They think growers they want to protect their investment and they don’t want any more growers, they just want to grow their own. And on the one hand, you want them to build out their whole facilities and be in full production before you make that decision. On the other hand-
Carlos Lopez: But then they’re going to have so much of a head start on the other guys that are just trying to build up as they are now, too. So why not give everyone a shot all at the same time, and as things progress?
Tim Pickett: And you would think that if these guys are growing and there’s 25,000 patients, as we approach 75,000, Utah will-
Carlos Lopez: Oh wow, is that right now?
Tim Pickett: No. But I’m just saying, in the future we have 25,000 legal patients right now.
Carlos Lopez: Wow, even that’s remarkable. Wasn’t it only like a third of that, or a fourth of that, what they projected?
Tim Pickett: Yeah. And there’s differing-
Chris Holifield: Don’t ask Rich that.
Tim Pickett: Don’t ask Rich that, because he’ll be like, “Well, we didn’t maybe-
Carlos Lopez: Maybe half?
Tim Pickett: Or whatever, but I’ve heard 6,000. They projected 6,000 for the first little while-
Carlos Lopez: Oh gosh, that’s ridiculous.
Tim Pickett: And 16,000 the first year, and we’re 10,000 more than that. We’ve really… I think we’ve done well. And the Department of Health likes that there’s a lot of patients and I think that’s important for the whole program, that there’s a lot of patients.
Carlos Lopez: It’s growing.
Chris Holifield: But if you can’t supply them, what good is it?
Carlos Lopez: True.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, so as we approach, they’re doing 500 cards a week at the state.
Carlos Lopez: Wow.
Tim Pickett: So they’re increasing by a couple of 1,000 a month. If you extrapolate that out, if we’re short on supply now, we may continue to be short on supply.
Carlos Lopez: Especially when that number that just gets bigger. As we only have these eight to work with, I see where you’re going with this. It doesn’t look good. It’s almost like what I’m thinking up here.
Tim Pickett: That’s the argument I’m making-
Carlos Lopez: At least for patients and availability of the product.
Tim Pickett: I don’t know that that’s the truth, I’m just bringing that up. It does seem like if you’re short now, and granted these guys aren’t up and totally up and running fully.
Carlos Lopez: Fully.
Tim Pickett: But we’re 25,000 patients now, and we’re growing quickly.
Chris Holifield: And where are we going to be in 2022?
Carlos Lopez: And it’s only getting quicker because of the system.
Tim Pickett: Right. And the system is getting better and better.
Carlos Lopez: More efficient.
Tim Pickett: And as more and more people realize it’s a legitimate medicine, that will only increase the size of the system faster.
Chris Holifield: People are still finding out it’s even legal here in Utah.
Carlos Lopez: That’s the weird part.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, come in every day. Every day to our clinic. Every single day. They’re like, “I just found out this was legal last week.” And you’re like, “Where have you been? I was waiting for this day 10 years ago. You know what I mean? I’ve been counting these days.”
Carlos Lopez: That’s so funny. You guys are ahead of the curve, honestly.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Carlos Lopez: You are, you are ahead of me. On my card, I’m patient 30,000 plus later. Where the heck was… I should have been 300 or less. I should have been in the at no, that now.
Tim Pickett: In the beginning. No. you should have known.
Chris Holifield: That was a pretty cool day, I was actually at the Dragonfly opening. Dude, that first day-
Carlos Lopez: Oh with Mario, Mariojuana.
Chris Holifield: I didn’t go in.
Carlos Lopez: Oh, he’s episode two, I’ve heard.
Chris Holifield: I didn’t go into the dispensary, I was just there when they did the ribbon cutting. It was such, I mean goosebumps man, just because I was like, “Wow, we have this. This is pretty neat.”
Tim Pickett: It was intense.
Carlos Lopez: It was surreal.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, they’re going to do a big 4/20-
Carlos Lopez: Oh, I just can’t imagine they did the one year anniversary, which was huge. I just can’t imagine what they’ve got in store.
Tim Pickett: They’re going to put up a big event. Big announcements coming out of there.
Carlos Lopez: That will be exciting.
Tim Pickett: April 20.
Chris Holifield: So this is a question that I ask quite a few patients that come on here, Carlos, is what would you tell somebody, I would imagine people are listening that are still on the fence about trying medical cannabis, medical marijuana. Would you give them any advice or suggestions or words of assurance to put their mind at ease? Like hey, I don’t know…
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, definitely. I would say, “don’t be afraid.” It’s a natural, alternative medicine, with its endocannabinoid system that I’ve been learning about and our bodies that naturally have a cannabinoid system, we’re just a perfect match. We’re made for each other in a sense. And I don’t want to get all philosophical or into that, it’s just like it’s a so much better alternative to take that leap. For me, I waited a year and I went through pain, and I went through suffering and I went through things that I shouldn’t have, longer than I shouldn’t have, should I been lack of knowledge or education about this plant. It would have avoided all that suffering, all that time that I spent bedridden, and unmotivated and away from my family.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, “Give me my life back. I want my life back.” I understand.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, I don’t want to make it seem like it’s the unicorn of all things, because for some people it doesn’t work, either.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Carlos Lopez: For the vast majority of us, it works. And the proof is in the pudding. Numbers don’t lie.
Tim Pickett: People should take advantage of the education-
Carlos Lopez: That’s the biggest gap.
Tim Pickett: … you can find online.
Carlos Lopez: Or disconnect.
Tim Pickett: Information that you can find now online and with friends and with things like this podcast and take advantage of what you didn’t have in 2005, and what we now-
Carlos Lopez: At our disposal, like technology.
Tim Pickett: …are building, right? This intro into the legitimacy of something that may help you.
Carlos Lopez: Oh, I think it will. I mean this is not just for myself I can personally speak, but I’ve seen this help from family members, from my grandma, from my aunt, from my sister. I’ve seen this.
Chris Holifield: So it’s helped out family members, too.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, absolutely. It’s not just me. I think this is better than reaching for that medicine cabinet and grabbing the aspirin and grabbing the Ibuprofen and grabbing the pain pill, or grabbing the… You know what I mean? Whatever it is that’s a pharmaceutical. And I’m not saying all pharmaceuticals are bad, because they have their purpose in their own way. But this plant, cannabis, is just a life saver in my eyes. It’s drastically changed my life for the better, that I don’t know, I can’t be grateful enough. I’d be dead if it wasn’t for cannabis.
Chris Holifield: Dude, I’m glad we got you on the show. I’m glad. Thank you for coming and recording with us.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: It’s definitely our pleasure.
Carlos Lopez: No, you’re welcome man. I appreciate you guys. I learned a lot from your podcast and like you were saying, Utah, I’m probably saying it wrong, but the utahmarijuana.org, that’s awesome. Very knowledgeable, educational and it really gives me something to look forward to, every week. I’m always stoked to tune in, “Hey, what’s Tim and Blake doing?”
Tim Pickett: Yeah, what’s the-
Carlos Lopez: What are we going to learn today?
Tim Pickett: What are we going to listen to on the podcast?
Carlos Lopez: What’s going to be on Chris’ podcast this time? Who’s going to be the guest? Is it the hemp or is it the pharmacy guy or the High Times magazine CEO lady, or Mario back here, working, doing his thing? It’s just coming from so many different parts of the world and dynamics, it’s been exciting for me to be a part of. That’s what I like.
Carlos Lopez: We tear each other down so much, we need to lift each other up more often. And I think being in the cannabis community is part of that. Lifting one another up, not being in the negative and just focusing on the bad. But at the same time, you don’t want to be ignorant. We want to try to make change for the better.
Carlos Lopez: So that’s why I was getting on the whole limited cultivator thing.
Tim Pickett: Right.
Carlos Lopez: Because I wish that was double.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, it will get there. Rich was even saying, “Let’s see what happens. Get all these up and going, everything up and going, all the shops up and going, all the growers up and going.” But I’m afraid it will be like the I-15 construction. It’s not like they didn’t attack it soon enough, so it was just… We grew too fast, there was all these construction zones. So why not just make enough dispensaries or pharmacies open now, for the projected growth is what I see.
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Anyway.
Carlos Lopez: No, I think you’re right. Us Utahns-
Chris Holifield: We like to wait.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, in general, I know we’re a conservative state. Obviously, we get that rap all the time. Salt Lake City, I think is going to show that we are willing to change for the better and wanting this hip medicine that’s just going to make us feel better and heal. That’s going to ripple throughout the state, but it seems like everything’s so focused in on us, the county and… Everyone deserves to feel good. No one should be put in that position to have to choose, “Do I need to take this pain pill? Or, do I need to be dying for the next hours?”
Tim Pickett: Right.
Carlos Lopez: With cannabis, you don’t have to worry about that. I’ve been able to take such a variety of… I’m not sure, obviously I don’t know if you’ve seen the Hygge, but they have those FSO pills. Those are freaking awesome. Those help my insomnia better than anything.
Chris Holifield: The RSO pills?
Carlos Lopez: No, no. The green ones, the extra strength.
Chris Holifield: The Dose?
Carlos Lopez: The Dose.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, Dose, okay.
Carlos Lopez: Those will dose you, for sure.
Chris Holifield: I should try those, yeah.
Carlos Lopez: The extra strength, those, because like I’ve said, I’ve done trial and error. Those were great. The strawberry orange ones is the next best go-to for me. The 500 milligram ones, the 50 milligram each per gummy, those ones also, those help my migraines and my insomnia. Those will help me go right out and sleep through the night. That’s the key. I just wasn’t able to sleep all the times through the night. Wake up, toss and turning, hours, maybe sleep an hour, wake up in an hour kind of thing. But those will actually let me rest all the way like a normal 6-8, sometimes longer if I’m really feeling woozy and I want to live it up, go all wild.
Chris Holifield: Living on the edge. Get a couple of extra hours of sleep.
Carlos Lopez: But between… and it’s like you said, discreet, low key, medicating. I don’t have to smell like flower if I need to be somewhere I… We still live in a state that-
Tim Pickett: Professional.
Carlos Lopez: Right, right. And there’s a stigma, unfortunately, with this plant still. It’s just the way it is. And hopefully in time, I think that will change, but you don’t want to be walking around, sometimes when you’re around corporate execs smell like flower, like I’ll tell you that, like cannabis flower. But that’s where I do have… I’m able to take those at the full spectrum, extra dose cannabis capsules. Or I have recently experimented with the RSO ones.
Carlos Lopez: As a matter of fact-
Chris Holifield: The RSO capsules. I saw those, I was wondering how those work?
Carlos Lopez: Because I was supposed to take my dose, but yeah these. I don’t know if it’s okay or not.
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Carlos Lopez: But yeah, it’s these ones. You know which ones are good, too? I don’t know if you want to check them out?
Chris Holifield: I haven’t had… I’ve seen pictures. I haven’t seen the actual-
Tim Pickett: No, I haven’t seen the bottle itself.
Carlos Lopez: They honestly, the green ones are bitter, I’ll be honest. They’re more effective. These ones are little bit more of a light punch for me, but that’s good, because sometimes I don’t always need that heavy hitting one that’s going to put me out for the night. I don’t need that. Want one that’s going to be a little more mild but still takes what I need away, that pain, let me function.
Carlos Lopez: Oh sorry.
Tim Pickett: Oh, you’re good. You’re good.
Carlos Lopez: But just being able to function and think straight. I love those capsules. The gummies like you said. I’ve done a lot of trial and error there. I’m not a fan of the 100 milligram Tryke ones. I tried them. I tried all 10, there was nothing happened.
Chris Holifield: All 10 at one time?
Carlos Lopez: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Holifield: It didn’t do anything for you?
Carlos Lopez: Nothing at all. I tried the Tryke it was the apple Indica THC ones. So it was like, “I’m not getting this again.” Hopefully they come out with another more potent one.
Chris Holifield: That’s what I’m excited for is as 2021 and going into 2022, is to see the products that are coming out.
Carlos Lopez: Oh yeah, even a year ago, you’ve had a patient going back a year.
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Carlos Lopez: I’m sure the whole menu is like night and day going back this time of year.
Tim Pickett: Oh, yeah. I remember going into Dragonfly and there were four options. And then there were three, because then you could buy tincture. And that was pretty much all you could buy.
Carlos Lopez: Actually I was going to cover that with you because tinctures is one thing I’ve tried that at least for what I deal with, specifically, it’s the perfect dosing. Like you said, you can precision dosing, but I don’t get that pain from my bud that I need, because I need that stronger-
Tim Pickett: Stronger yes. So for somebody like you, you need 1000 milligrams of THC in one vial. And now, you’re buying 250 milligrams THC in one vial. It’s just a matter of time until that product comes-
Carlos Lopez: And I’m sure.
Tim Pickett: Really what you need is a nano emulsified THC oil that has 1,000 milligrams in that one 30 ml bottle. That’s going to absorb faster, it’s going to be more potent and it’s going to be affordable. Something like that would be affordable for somebody with a relatively high tolerance.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, at that point, but it’s just where with it’s at now, it doesn’t seem that it, with the tinctures and the prices and where the dose is, it’s just… like I said, I just don’t get that. But like you said, in due time.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. This is a real balance for the marketplace, because most users are going to be on the low end of tolerance, where five or 10 milligrams of THC is plenty. And for somebody who needs 50, 60, 70 milligrams at a dose, the cost per milligram of THC comes into play.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, so you’re not on the same playing field, really.
Tim Pickett: So really, let’s say 80% of the patients in Utah need that low, low dose. So most of the products-
Carlos Lopez: It’s going to be tailored towards them.
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Carlos Lopez: That makes sense.
Tim Pickett: All the products you see are more tailored toward that intro medical user. And that’s why your concentrates need to come. They’re for people who have a higher tolerance and people who have more serious conditions, too. They’re necessary, there’s just fewer patients in that space.
Carlos Lopez: I appreciate you explaining it like that, because that does help put it in perspective, for me. That paints the picture for me. I’m excited as we go, fast forward the clock, five years down the road, to see… because we’re big on pharmaceuticals in general, Utah. We’re known for pain pills and opioids.
Carlos Lopez: No, it’s not a good thing.
Tim Pickett: No, we’re getting on the bandwagon though with alternative medicine.
Carlos Lopez: Right.
Tim Pickett: We’re one of the biggest states for essential oils, too. So you could see that the state could get onboard. The state could be-
Chris Holifield: I’m actually surprised how many people are onboard though. I saw on Facebook about a week ago, I’m this Utah County Facebook group, and they were complaining about the Springville dispensary opening up. There was a couple of people but then all these people saying how great it was. I was like, “This is great for Utah. A couple of moms getting all, ‘Oh, this is going to bring down our home value.'”
Chris Holifield: That’s what they were concerned about, bringing down their home value.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, the community.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, they’re like, “Oh is this dispensary gonna bring down -”
Carlos Lopez: Going to ruin our kids.
Chris Holifield: And blah, blah, blah. But I was actually surprised on how many… There’s a lot of people in this state that are actually onboard.
Tim Pickett: And willing to be vocal.
Chris Holifield: With cannabis, because of the creams and stuff like that. I think it’s because the way we’ve approached it, with vape only, no flame. So we’ve taken away all that trashy cannabis look, right?
Tim Pickett: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Holifield: Because that’s how most people look at the joint, and see that little guy.
Carlos Lopez: That’s the stigma is the bong, deal with the dreads, the reggae.
Chris Holifield: There’s nothing wrong with that. I love all that, too. But that’s not all there is to the medicine.
Carlos Lopez: No, not at all.
Tim Pickett: Like I was saying earlier. When you’re introducing this to a population that is mostly conservative, if you can do it in the right way, then you can get buy in and we can create a better program in the end, but we’re going to have to live with the bumps.
Carlos Lopez: That’s just life, right. You’ve got to take the good with the bad. And that’s where I’m trying to stay optimistic. Just hang in there. We never thought we’d even be 35th or whatever it was medical. So you know what, God bless me. Let’s just keep on riding. We’ve got to just do it. Take the nitty gritty with it.
Tim Pickett: Oh, go ahead.
Carlos Lopez: I was just going to say that’s why I was excited about the five years from now to see our case study with… I was excited to see where the opioid drop is and not just the drop but the deaths, there’s people dying out here now, because of this thing.
Tim Pickett: Hundreds still.
Carlos Lopez: It’s not a joke. It’s like being more than traffic accidents, almost.
Tim Pickett: I don’t know the comparison, but I think there were 463 opioid deaths in 2018.
Carlos Lopez: Oh, God.
Tim Pickett: Was the latest number.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, that’s awful.
Tim Pickett: That’s a lot.
Carlos Lopez: It’s one too many.
Chris Holifield: Can listeners, how can they connect with you? What’s your Instagram again?
Carlos Lopez: Oh yeah, it’s just my name. So @C_a_r_l_o_s_Lopez.
Chris Holifield: Any spaces or anything?
Carlos Lopez: I do have. I have underscore. So it’s a little complicated. It’s C_A_R_L_O_S and then Lopez, L-O-P-E-Z. I know that’s-
Chris Holifield: Is Lopez underscored?
Carlos Lopez: No, it’s one solid. L-O-P-E-Z.
Chris Holifield: Okay.
Carlos Lopez: So just Carlos is underscored.
Tim Pickett: So if you’re looking for Carlos, you can go to utahmarijuana.org Instagram and just look to the comments, you’ll find him.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah, usually-
Tim Pickett: That’s probably the easiest way to find him.
Chris Holifield: No, but I love it. I love how active you are on there, man.
Carlos Lopez: I appreciate that.
Tim Pickett: It’s important for us to keep people engaged. And we really appreciate it. We really do.
Carlos Lopez: Well, thank you guys. That means a lot.
Chris Holifield: You bet.
Carlos Lopez: Because I love you guys.
Chris Holifield: Thanks, man.
Carlos Lopez: Watching your show, this is a beauty on cannabis. I never would have reached these relationships of, even being able to sit here and do this. I’m just, that’s what I’m saying, I’m very grateful for this medicine and our program.
Chris Holifield: We’re grateful, too.
Carlos Lopez: And you guys, like the platform. This is amazing. You make it seem like you said, it’s legitimized and it’s respectable, you guys are professional about what you do and the way you go about it and the way you educate patients and keep us knowledged. And in the know of the laws. I love it. I can’t get enough of it. I just want to learn more. I appreciate you guys. Like it really means a lot to me. Thank you.
Chris Holifield: Perfect place to end the show, I think.
Tim Pickett: Absolutely.
Chris Holifield: Thank you again, for coming and recording with us. I can’t urge people enough to go follow you on Instagram, connect with you, send you a message. Send Carlos a message, say, “Hey, I heard you on I Am Salt Lake.” Not I Am Salt Lake, that’s my other…. Say, “I heard you on Utah In The Weeds.” That’s my other podcast.
Carlos Lopez: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: Listen to that podcast, too.
Tim Pickett: You’ve been doing that one a long time. Eight and a half years.
Chris Holifield: Something like that.
Carlos Lopez: I need to get on that one more. I’ll be honest with you. I haven’t as much.
Chris Holifield: That’s how I met Tim.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, when you’re in to the cannabis scene, you’ve got a cannabis podcast here. When you’re into the Salt Lake scene, the Utah scene, you’ve got I Am Salt Lake. We’ve got it all covered here. We’re local, Chris is local.
Carlos Lopez: I love it.
Chris Holifield: Anything else you want to add, Tim?
Tim Pickett: No. This has been fun, thanks Carlos. I appreciate you coming on.
Chris Holifield: Go to utahmarijuana.org/podcast is where you listen to all the previous podcasts, we should be in all the podcast apps. If we’re not in a podcast app that you use, reach out to Tim or myself and I will try my hardest to get us in there. Leave us a review in iTunes if you have it. I’m trying to think what else there is to say, any other…? Utahmarijuana.org is the hub.
Tim Pickett: That’s the hub and really it has the episodes as early as you can find them anywhere, right?
Chris Holifield: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: So all right guys, stay safe out there.
Chris and Tim’s guest, Brent, was the first employee brought on to help get Wasatch extraction up and running. His initial experience was a learn-as-you-go type of thing. Once they got up and running and brought more employees on board, Brent took the role of Lab Director.
Wasatch Extraction started in the hemp market; they are now in the medical market as well. Their biggest concern on the medical side is the lack of biomass. They do very little hemp right now because the money isn’t there. In order to expand the medical side of things, they are in the process of bringing in new equipment that will allow them to tap the rosin market.
In addition to having an extraction license, the company also has a tier 1 processing license. That enables them to make a number of finished products, including vaping carts. Wasatch Extraction makes their own branded carts as well as white label products for other brands.
Vape carts are the company’s bestseller right now. Brent called them ‘low hanging fruit’ because they are easy to make and use. However, Wasatch Extraction would really like to get into more concentrates. That’s where rosin comes in. No one is offering it in Utah right now.
Wasatch Extraction is looking to grow significantly in the next few years. But again, access to product is the main hindrance. Brent, Chris, and Tim all agreed that there needs to be a greater access on growing in Utah. More plants in the ground is the only way to solve the supply problem.
Episode 53 of Utah in the Weeds is a fascinating discussion for anyone interested in the happenings at a typical extraction and processing operation. This episode is jampacked with information you may not know.
Follow the podcast at UtahMarijuana.org, or leave us a message at (385) 215-9557.
Check out Chris Holifield’s other podcast, I am Salt Lake.
Subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Discover Marijuana.
Chris Holifield:
All right. Let’s welcome everybody out today to episode 53 of Utah in the Weeds. My name’s Chris Holifield.
Tim Pickett:
And I’m Tim Pickett, a QMP in Utah and a medical cannabis expert, so to speak. Pretty excited about the interview today Chris, with an extractor in Utah.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. Brent, the Lab Director at Wasatch Extraction. And for people that don’t know, in Wasatch Extraction, they make all the carts here in Utah pretty much. Right? I don’t think there’s any place else that makes carts in Utah.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I mean, I think there’s a couple of other vertically integrated places that are making up their own carts. Like I think Dragonfly does, or Zion does. When you have these processors, they have to get product from Tryke, or from one of the other growers. And then they process it into these products that we love and they make, Wasatch Extraction is making some medicine that is really top-notch.
Chris Holifield:
And then they’re doing the Fruit of Life carts as well. So we talk a little bit about that in this conversation, which was really cool to kind of put some of the pieces together.
Tim Pickett:
Right? Just another interview to put the pieces together, to get to know all of the different brands in Utah, all of the different processes that you’re getting your medicine. And if you’re interested in becoming a patient in Utah, like knowing essentially seed to sale. Right? Where your medicine comes from, which is something you can’t do with normal pharmaceuticals. So it’s a good educational and cultural interview, I thought.
Chris Holifield:
Also I want to mention Tim. I know we didn’t talk about this before we started recording, but I want to make a little send out or a request to people. If you know, of any 420 events going on, to send that into Tim or I. I know you and I we’re going to collect some of the events and whatnot and talk about it next week on the podcast, but let’s… Hey, if anybody knows of any, reach out to Tim or myself. Let us know, so we can talk about it on the podcast as well.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Stay tuned, next week we’ll have all of those local events, we’ll have details about what’s going on at the different pharmacies and the big events. It’s a fun month. It’s not only a recreational holiday, or an adult use holiday, but I think that it’s becoming a big deal, even nationwide to celebrate the cannabis movement in medical or adult use, whatever you’re into.
Chris Holifield:
And I’m trying to think, there was something… Oh, utahmarijuana.org/podcast. Go listen to all the episodes there. I’m sure there’s a couple that you haven’t listened to. So go check them out, make sure you’re subscribed in whatever app you listen to podcasts in. Should we get into the podcast, or the interview?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Let’s do.
Chris Holifield:
Tim, anything else want to talk about?
Tim Pickett:
Nope, let’s get into it.
Chris Holifield:
All right. Here’s that with Brent, from Wasatch Extraction. Enjoy. Well, let’s start with Wasatch Extraction, man. How did you get involved with Wasatch Extraction?
Brent:
Well, the owner, or one of the owners Steve [Gasdes 00:03:13], me and him go way back to high school. So we were just buddies causing trouble back in the day and he got the opportunity to get the license. He wanted to get a grill and a dispensary license as well, but we got the extraction license. So we started there and then I had some experience in the cannabis industry, but just a little bit. And so he was like, “Hey, do you want to help me start this thing up?” So I jumped on board and super grateful.
Chris Holifield:
And you’re the lab director there, right?
Brent:
Lab director.
Chris Holifield:
So what exactly is that like, what’s your day to day? What are you doing there?
Brent:
Right. Well, basically I was employee number one coming on and I was there for myself for like the first nine months. The first year we were just doing CBD. And I hadn’t ever done CO2 extraction or used a rotovap or a short path before. So it was really, a little bit intimidating coming on because this equipment shows up and you’re like, “Oh man, that might be out of my league.” But it’s just like anything else, you do it a hundred times and you’re like, “Oh I get it.”
Brent:
So just basically, and then once we started to pick up a little more, we got some employees on board. Basically, I mostly run the post-processing after the initial extraction, I guess I run the CO2 machines, but generally we’re doing ethanol right now. So we have Tyson and Gareth doing ethanol for us. And then I’m upstairs in the upper lab doing the rotovap, or the winterizing ,or short path, or I do some HPLC stuff as well.
Chris Holifield:
A lot of things going over my head right here.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I followed you to ethanol. Right?
Brent:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
I know what that is. And I know it goes away when the product comes out the door.
Brent:
Yes.
Tim Pickett:
Right.
Brent:
If you’re doing it right. It does. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
But then you’re talking about, is this all still hemp CBD processing, or now you’re in the medical market.
Brent:
We’re in the medical market. Yep. We’re lucky enough to get that license as well. And then partner with some farmers or I guess you can be partners with the farmers.
Chris Holifield:
License?. What license, like grow license or just a processing-
Brent:
No, just the extraction license.
Chris Holifield:
Extraction license.
Brent:
But you have to be GMP certified and all that stuff to do medical marijuana. And then you got to go through, because I think we’re the only facility in the state that actually can do both CBD and THC under the same roof. But we did have to go through certain precautions to make sure there was no cross-contamination and stuff like that. Gave that plan to the state, have it approved. But the first year we were just doing CBD. So it was great for me because I got to really dial everything in. And now that we’re doing marijuana, we’re not really doing much CBD right now because the price per liters drop so much, it’s really not worth the labor and the chemicals and stuff like that. So we’ve shifted full-time over to THC. But it has slowed the pace quite a bit because as you know, there’s a lack of-
Tim Pickett:
Like product biomass-
Brent:
Flower and biomass and stuff like that in the state right now.
Tim Pickett:
Describe that a little bit so that people understand, because there are companies like Wholesome, who have a license to go all the way from seed to sale. Right?
Brent:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim Pickett:
And there are some companies who just have grow licenses and then they have to find other people. So where are you getting the product?
Brent:
Right. Right now we are mostly getting it from Tryke right now, but they’re so spread thin. They can only give us so much. We were working with Oakbridge quite a bit to get stuff from them. And they, I haven’t been to many facilities, but they have a massive facility going up North. And so they’ve basically decided to focus on just going all the biomass and extraction. So they aren’t really doing too much smokable. So they, and Tyler really knows what he’s doing, I don’t know if you know about Oakbridge, but they have nurseries and stuff like that. He grew up just growing things. So he has a green thumb. Obviously marijuana is very different, so it takes a while to understand its particular needs and stuff like that. They are cranking out a ton of biomass, but I think they’re trying to start an extraction themselves. So we’ve shifted to, Tri-C basically, long story short.
Chris Holifield:
I want to back up a little bit, you were mentioning how you had prior experience with cannabis before getting into this. Earlier in the conversation, do you care to share anything about that? Like, was it here in Utah or out of state or were you growing or what were you doing —
Brent:
It was in California, just some small scale grows. Nothing crazy. And then I was doing bubble hash for the shops out there.
Chris Holifield:
Bubble hash?
Brent:
Small time though. So Bubble hash, it’s making a comeback, which I love. It’s a solventless extraction, so basically you just freeze the biomass, tumble around in some ice water, knock all the trichomes free, and some other compounds and stuff like that and throw it through a series of bags. And you’re basically sifting through gold to find the particular grade that you’re looking for.
Chris Holifield:
That’s wonderful.
Tim Pickett:
That’s pretty cool, but solventless.
Brent:
That’s what I love about it. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
That’s your favorite type of extraction or is there a place for everything?
Brent:
It’s not my favorite to do because it’s very manual, labor intensive because you’re bouncing bags. But it’s my favorite…
Tim Pickett:
Like end product.
Brent:
Yes. Well actually my favorite’s live rosin. Live rosin is basically just a heated press. And so you can put flower in there, but you’re not going to get a whole lot out for each press. But if you put bubble hash in there, it’s going squeeze it, ooze out, just tons of live rosin, that’s my favorite stuff to use, I guess. And we’re ordering all the equipment for that very soon. So we’ll be bringing that to the patients. Nobody here in Utah is doing it at the moment that I’m aware of.
Tim Pickett:
No, there’s no live rosin anywhere.
Brent:
No.
Tim Pickett:
Trust me. We would know.
Brent:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
Everybody would know.
Brent:
Yep. Yep.
Tim Pickett:
There’s been a little bit of dry or hash, is it hash resin?
Brent:
Like bubble hash or?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Brent:
Yeah. They call it bubble hash because if you do it right, and you hold a lighter up to it, it bubbles and sizzles.
Tim Pickett:
Interesting.
Brent:
Yeah. Or if not, it just burns like a piece of charcoal. Like plant matter in there and stuff like that.
Chris Holifield:
I love talking about stuff like that because a lot of times you hear it out and about right, tut you’re like, “I don’t know what this means.” A lot of the terminology and I know a lot of people that listen to this are newbies when it comes to cannabis. So it’s like, I want to educate them when it comes to the different, different terms and words. So they’re not intimidated when they’re going into the pharmacies because I know how it is a lot of times. I mean, it wasn’t even for me, the first time I ever went into my first legal dispensary in Colorado. Man, I was so intimidated. I was like, “I don’t know if I know all the right lingo here.”
Brent:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
Lingo. You don’t know if you’re allowed to talk to somebody. I need to just stay quiet. Or it’s you stand in line?
Chris Holifield:
Yeah
Brent:
We used to go into head shops. And if you said the wrong language…
Chris Holifield:
You know, get out of here.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. They be like, “You’re out for this.”. Right.
Chris Holifield:
This is for smoking tobacco.
Brent:
Exactly.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, it is. Yeah. Maybe we’re peoples safe place to learn about things like that.
Chris Holifield:
I wanted to, yeah.
Brent:
Yeah. People need them.
Tim Pickett:
They really do.
Brent:
Absolutely.
Tim Pickett:
Okay. Your focus, what’s Wasatch Extraction doing mostly now, as far as the extraction process and making products, labeling, getting it out the door?
Brent:
So not only do we have the extraction license, but we also have a tier one processing license, which allows us to formulate and package. That gives us the ability to mix the distillate, or whatever that end product is. Not end product, but an end extraction product, mix it into tinctures, formulate in the lotions or put it into vape cartridges, add terps if you want. Stuff like that, and then package. So basically box and label.
Tim Pickett:
I can bring you a cannabis plant that’s dried and ready and tested. And then you can take that plant and make it into pretty much whatever I need.
Brent:
Absolutely.
Tim Pickett:
That’s kind of what Wasatch Extraction is all about.
Brent:
Yeah. We bridge a lot of gaps because like you were saying earlier, you have the farmers or the people to grow, licensed in the dispensary’s, but we’re the people that are the go-between. I believe True North got it, tier one as well. And they’re trying to keep it everything pretty much in-house. Other brands are actually loving our distillate so much that they’re basically co-branding.
Tim Pickett:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. White label, or co-branding and stuff like that. They bring their recipe to you and then they say, “Hey, make this recipe, put our label on it.”
Brent:
Exactly.
Tim Pickett:
I see.
Brent:
And actually they love our recipe so much. They’re like, “Put that in here and we’ll tweak it a little bit to make it ours.” Because, everybody wants their own personal touch on everything, which is great. And then yeah, we put it into their cartridges and it goes out and what people would know…
Chris Holifield:
Kind of like, we’re in the Fruit of Life shop, for example, you fill their carts up. Right? Is that kind of…
Brent:
Well actually the Fruit is Life is a brand.
Chris Holifield:
Of Wasatch Extraction.
Brent:
Yes. It’s our own brand. Yeah.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. I got you.
Tim Pickett:
Okay. That even adds another layer to it. So you can work for other process or other growers and process their product like Tryke and then get their stuff out and then you could do your own and brand it in Fruit of Life and put that out.
Brent:
Exactly. So we can actually buy biomass or plant matter or flower from the growers and we’re able to do our own brand from that, which is super amazing.
Tim Pickett:
That’s cool. And it makes it kind of complicated in the system because there’s a lot of those, there’s a lot of brands, even in the small marketplace that we have, it seems like there’s a lot of brands and then tracing that product back to the processor and then back to who actually grew the flower. I think a lot of people are interested in that and knowing where their stuff comes from?
Brent:
100%. Yeah. There’s a lot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes that people are very unaware of. And some people, they want to know exactly where this came from, and source, all that stuff, which I like too. I like to kind of know where my stuff’s coming from, because there’s basically the facade that the packaging labeling isn’t. I started to realize this once I got into this industry like, “I don’t know, Doritos, they package for lots of other people, or they give their different recipes to other brands.” There’s these major processing facilities that you can go to with your recipe and say, “Hey, I want to make a product. Will you white label it for me?” And so it’s interesting.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. It’s like that in medical marijuana.
Brent:
Yeah. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
What’s your favorite product or what seems to be the favorite product that you guys make right now? Do you think you have one?
Brent:
Yeah. The vape cartridges are the number one selling for sure.
Chris Holifield:
So you’re pretty much making everybody’s vape carts cartridges, no?
Brent:
No. That’s a very recent development that certain people have come to us and said, “Hey, we want to use your distillate and our vape cartridge.” There’s a lot of brands out there somehow making their own. They must have obviously a processing license.
Chris Holifield:
Okay.
Brent:
And I know other people are trying to get in and some people are working under our license. So they have to be at our facility. Certain brands come in, the Hygge. I think it’s Hygge, I’m so-
Chris Holifield:
Those little chews, the cubes.
Brent:
They are the economy king right now. They’re everywhere. And they were working out of our facility till just about a month ago.
Chris Holifield:
So you were processing those.
Brent:
Yeah. They were using our distillate and…
Chris Holifield:
Where did they go?
Brent:
That was Oakbridge as well. So they moved up, they finally built that part of their facility and moved down on up.
Chris Holifield:
Very cool.
Brent:
Yeah.
Chris Holifield:
Do you have a personal relationship with cannabis or, I mean, we don’t need to talk about that if you’d rather not, I was just curious from a personal relationship. I mean, if you’re a medical patient at all, or if anything like that?
Brent:
Not currently one here in the state of Utah, I have done previously in other States, but I mean I’ve loved the benefits of cannabis from an early age, junior high. And I definitely do not recommend younger people using cannabis early on. Wait till you’re more developed to do those things. I just experienced a lot of benefits personally. And I was like, “This thing can’t be bad, it does so many amazing things for me.” And so I’ve always just kind of been drawn to it and found work in the industries somehow. And I just love it.
Chris Holifield:
Very cool.
Tim Pickett:
That’s pretty cool. I think you fill in some of the gaps that we need to know about this whole system in Utah. Did any of the legal changes? Do you follow any of this that have changed in like the hemp laws, or the medical marijuana laws? Is anything going to change for you in 2021, that was different or is everything was pretty well set last year with the rules and not a ton has changed with the processing?
Brent:
To my knowledge, not a whole lot changed other than, I guess originally, extraction processes like BHO, we’re going to be off the-
Chris Holifield:
BHO — what is that?
Brent:
Butane extraction.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Brent:
Or even bubble hash, I hear originally was not going to be possible. But those have come through, but that was last year in 2020.
Tim Pickett:
Oh yeah. That was the concentrates when they allowed. So originally, patients were not going to be allowed to access concentrates until they failed two other methods.
Brent:
Right.
Chris Holifield:
Fail two other methods of…
Brent:
Of ingestion.
Chris Holifield:
Of cannabis?
Tim Pickett:
So you could get flower, you could get vape carts, but you had to do that. And then let’s say your 90 day renewal, you were going to have to go back to your provider and say, “Hey, this is not working for me. I need access to concentrates.” And they changed that law right before things even got really going, to just allow people to work with their medical provider and decide what works best for them originally and just have access from day one. And that probably affected the processors a bit, because concentrates… Yeah. I mean, now it seems like there’s going to be a better market for concentrates and people will have more options. Right?
Brent:
Absolutely. And I know all the patients I’m asking for it, on the social medias and stuff like that, we’ve been asking like, “Hey, what do you guys need? What do you guys want?” Everybody’s like, “We want live rosin and we want bubble hash, or shatter or whatever” So we’d love to be able to offer that, so that’s cool.
Chris Holifield:
What has been a hold up with live rosin and whatnot?
Tim Pickett:
I’ve heard, it’s just the biomass. It’s the fact that you can’t get enough raw materials to make more than just vape carts. Right?
Brent:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
Vape cart sell, they’re selling out. They’re easy to make or, however hard they are to make, that’s all you have product to make,
Brent:
Right. That’s kind of the low hanging fruit. It’s a great delivery method because it’s easy for people, you just push a button, it tastes good, you get your medication. As you get to know cannabis a little better, you start looking for the purest methods and just the more enjoyable methods that give you the desired result.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. And that ends up being more concentrates and more availability. I don’t know, what’s your experience with concentrates?
Chris Holifield:
Zero.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, mine too. I mean, I’ve experienced live rosin.
Chris Holifield:
So have I. I have experienced that.
Tim Pickett:
I will say from my experience, my personal experience, it is a different experience and it’s pretty amazing. The only way to describe it is like in something that you say or that people would understand was be the difference between the nicest bottle of wine you’ve ever drank and Three-Buck Chuck from Trader Joe’s.
Brent:
Right.
Chris Holifield:
You gave a good example probably here.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, there’s something about that, right? The table wine is fine and that’s good for everyday use it. It’s tasty, but there is just something about like, you don’t know what you’re experiencing until you drink that wine. And you’re like, “Oh wow, this is a lot better. I know why this is worth money.”
Brent:
Everything you want basically, and nothing you don’t want, flower itself has so many compounds going on in it. And as you extract things, you start to isolate and concentrate certain compounds, but you get rid of a lot of the other beneficial things like terpenes. You can add natural or synthetic food grade terpenes to your products. But I mean, as you were pointing to earlier, it’s a different experience of the live rosin. It’s just a slightly different experience than smoking flower or vaporizing flower. I personally love to vaporize flower because you get the full spectrum, basically. Nothing’s then extracted out, and also it’s solvent less. So it’s just pure, has all the flavor and it’s very potent. So it’s great experience.
Tim Pickett:
And I would say that like a live rosin for a medical patient, when you get into the concentrates, this is something that we don’t recommend people use all the time. It’s really from my medical standpoint.
Chris Holifield:
Why wouldn’t you want to use it all the time?
Tim Pickett:
Because, one, it’s expensive.
Chris Holifield:
Okay.
Tim Pickett:
Just like simple. Simply it’s going to be more expensive than it is to buy flower and it’s stronger. And so reserving that for your really bad days, or the few days after chemo, this is the type of thing that’s best for, in my opinion. And if you can use it in those settings, then it maintains its effectiveness more. And it’s kind of special place in the medical marijuana world. And from an adult use standpoint, it kind of is that same thing. You’re reserving it for those special occasions. It’s just like my analogy with the bottle of wine. I mean, you’re not going to open a hundred dollars bottle of wine every day. Right?
Brent:
Unless you can afford it.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, I guess if you can afford it, I’m not supposed to be…
Brent:
I’m coming to your house.
Tim Pickett:
But there may be a time and a place for that sort of thing. And I like your discussion about the flower. Here you are, you work for an extractor. Right? But I mean, some of the purest form of using cannabis is yeah, putting it right at 385 degrees and putting the old volcano at 385 and filing up a bag.
Chris Holifield:
And light and you hit the button and go.
Brent:
I love it.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Brent:
You know, it’s all about finding where your tolerance is, and managing it to your benefit, like you were saying. If you’re doing this for pain, you don’t want to just have your tolerance for the roof, because you’ll be buying so much. And when you use it, it’s not going to have the same effects.
Tim Pickett:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Brent:
So you’re right. I mean, there’s a lot of different products out there and you got to figure out which one your body responds to for what.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. How many vape carts do you think you guys make a day?
Brent:
Oh man. Well…
Tim Pickett:
I mean, we’re talking hundreds.
Brent:
Well, so right now we’re actually hand filling each one.
Chris Holifield:
You’re kidding.
Tim Pickett:
Oh my Gosh.
Brent:
And hand topping each one.
Chris Holifield:
Okay. Let’s hear more about that.
Brent:
We are buying a…
Chris Holifield:
Like Tupperware pitcher?
Tim Pickett:
You’re like pouring…
Brent:
It’s like a glue gun with a heat, and you just basically —
Tim Pickett:
It’s like hot glue.
Brent:
Yeah. And we’ve got a little assembly line. We can crank out. I think our record might be like 1200 for the day. And that’s a very small crew. That’s as crew of three.
Chris Holifield:
You’re not doing like any nicotine carts, you’re doing all, all cannabis-related CBD, THC, medical. No nicotine.
Tim Pickett:
What are they mixing it with? This is an oil form, you’ve extracted all of the THC out of the plant, which is kind of a fatty molecule. It’s a fatty, oily substance. How do you describe the THC oil?
Brent:
It’s very sticky, but it looks like an oil that acts, I guess it is an oil, but it’s like, man, really high potency THC distillate turns to like jolly rancher almost really quick.
Tim Pickett:
Okay. Yeah. It almost crystallizes. So you have to mix it with something that will allow it to stay a viscous form.
Brent:
So CBD crystallizes which is why a lot of people aren’t putting it into carts. And if you find one, it definitely has some other stuff in there with it to keep it in solution. THC, we don’t have to do that necessarily because it doesn’t crystallize. So it just has to be hot when you put it in there. And then the heat element on the vape cart will actually heat it up and allow it to flow.
Tim Pickett:
So you don’t need to add anything to the THC oil. You can just put straight THC oil, like 90 something percent into the vape cart.
Brent:
You can. I would prefer that, but everybody wants things to taste delicious these days.
Tim Pickett:
It will taste good.
Brent:
Yeah. They want their cannabis that tastes like Skittles or something. So I prefer the earthy taste. And the thing is when you extract, you extract out a lot of those terpenes and so you’re going to get an end result that doesn’t taste like what you think it might, which is why, and it kind of blew my mind when I started doing this. I’m sure everybody’s adding terps. Whether it’s marijuana terps or synthesized terps.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. And this is what makes your, this is what makes it taste a little lemony or citrusy, or it makes it taste a little bit more well. And then you can design, like if you buy a Jack Herer vape cart, that’s not saying that it came from that plant, it’s meaning that the terpene profile of what that strain was, what the cultivar was, is what they put back in a recipe form in that. Super Sour Diesel is a very common one. There’s a lot of them.
Brent:
Oh yeah. And the thing is like, terpenes, they’re part of the beneficial effects. Certain terpenes are what’s going to give you that pain relief or other effects. And so a lot of people, or the connoisseurs, or whatever are looking for certain strains because they include these terpenes. And so that’s definitely, I think where the market eventually will be moved to, is like, what effects do I need? Or what benefits do I need and which strains or terpenes give me those? And you’ll actually start looking for those rather than just the flavor.
Tim Pickett:
And I think you’re starting to see that people are looking for those more than they’re looking for sativa/indica. You don’t go in there and say, “Well, one day.” I think a lot of people still do, but we move towards a time when you’re going to the dispensary or the pharmacy. And you’ll say, “Hey, I need something with beta caryophyllene and limonene. These are the two terps that I think are, are better for me. And so do you have something that has those.” Instead of going in and saying, “I need something that’s an upper or that’s good for this or down.” Right? You’ll get a little more dialed as to what specifically works. And that can be a lot of terpenes. So do they add terpenes? Is that make it more viscous?
Brent:
It does.
Tim Pickett:
Because the terpenes come in a more liquid form.
Brent:
Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. Some people are adding 10% or more terpenes, which is a lot. And again, if they’re marijuana grade terpenes, that might be highly beneficial. You definitely want to add marijuana terpenes over lab synthesized food grade terpenes, but in a way terpenes are terpenes, because the same, like you were saying limonene, you’re gonna find that in limes.
Tim Pickett:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Brent:
It’s the same actual compound or terpene, it’s also found in this plant too.
Chris Holifield:
Learn something every time I talk on it, or we record podcasts-
Tim Pickett:
We record this podcasts. I like this-
Chris Holifield:
Because I still find the indica-sativa thing interesting because I find it any sativa, way too much anxiety, so I always have to go to indica. But then people say that, that doesn’t matter.
Tim Pickett:
What does it smell like?
Chris Holifield:
What does it smell like? I have even no idea.
Tim Pickett:
Do you find that there’s a smell to the indica that you’re finding? Does the cannabis you use, tend to taste similar, like when you buy indica and I’ll bet over time…
Chris Holifield:
I think so. I guess I just don’t pay attention to that part of it.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. And I’ll bet over time, your cannabis smells more earthy, and you’re using more indica type terpenes, if that works for you. And you’re staying away from terpenes that are more associated with sativa.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. Just because I find the sativa ones give me a lot more anxiety.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Rebound headaches come with those sativa terpenes. Things like that.
Brent:
Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you know a lot about the terpenes.
Tim Pickett:
Well, we’re just learning so much more about them and trying to…
Brent:
Right. Which is great about you guys do. You guys get to sit down with people and learn about it all and like share with everybody. It’s super cool.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. It’s been a lot for everybody really, because I think a lot of people, especially here in Utah, it’s like the Wild West when it comes to the knowledge because, the facilities, like the pharmacies and whatnot, to go purchase the items, but without podcasts like this or Salt Baked City, outlets like that, there’s no way to learn about any of these stuff.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. If nobody talks to you, then no one knows about extraction and nobody knows how to fill a vape cart. Like what goes on. Right? We all watched the YouTube video of how this is made. Right.? My kids are always into that.
Brent:
Oh yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Right. We want to go to the farm. We want to watch it. We want to listen to it. And there is no way to know about that stuff in cannabis world, in the medical marijuana world without talking about it, because there’s no advertising. So we just all have to go out, do it without, or teach other.
Brent:
Like you said, it’s you guys and Salt Baked City, those guys that are actually the interface between the patients and the extractions, dispensaries and the growers and all that stuff.
Chris Holifield:
You were saying, you make 1200 carts on your best day or one day or something. Right?
Brent:
About 1,200. We might have done a little more.
Chris Holifield:
So we’re recording, we’re across the street from Beehive, for example, right?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Beehive Farmacy, I’m looking at their front door.
Chris Holifield:
How many vape carts you think they sell in a day? I mean, because there’s not that many pharmacies. If you could make that many in one day, I mean, are you busy every day?
Brent:
If we have the material to extract, but once that’s there, and the testing is there, it’s fill, fill, fill, fill, fill, because there are so many orders we just can’t meet because there’s a lack of….
Tim Pickett:
Like product, so…
Chris Holifield:
I mean that blows in a way that if you’re making now, if 1200 is the most and you’ve made that much and you’re still can’t even keep up. It makes me wonder, how much could this state really handle-
Tim Pickett:
Well if there’s 25,000 patients now. And everybody’s doing a couple of hundred transactions a day. Of the eight pharmacies that are open now, and there’re times times all of that buy, how many people buy vape carts every time they go, buy one once every… Maybe everybody, maybe there’s 25,000 vape carts being sold a month.
Brent:
Probably more. Yeah,
Tim Pickett:
This is a small… And Utah’s a super small market.
Brent:
Oh yeah.
Tim Pickett:
For this.
Brent:
Yeah. Right now it is.
Chris Holifield:
So you think even Wasatch Extraction is making more than 25,000 carts in a month.
Tim Pickett:
No, because you’d be making a thousand carts every day, but across the marketplace…
Brent:
For a while there, we were everyday strong making carts. We are in the process of looking for automatic filler, but there are some that have major issues. And so you really got to do your research and it’d be awesome to pull a lever, and in 30 seconds do a hundred carts and then take the dye, move it over to the capper and cap them. We’re not quite there yet, because again, we just don’t have the biomass to justify that purchase.
Tim Pickett:
Right. You just you’d fill all your carts in two days and then you’d be out of work for two weeks till you get more.
Brent:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
We have got to get more people putting plants in the ground in this state or this has never been going to-
Chris Holifield:
Again, I know we talk about this a lot, but when you probably told me what this is, Tim. But is that really all we need, is people to put plants in the ground or what. We have the growers but it is not growing or what?
Tim Pickett:
The growers aren’t growing. I mean, even the growers with licenses, there’s only a fraction. Less than half the growers that have licenses or enough plants in the ground to do this.
Brent:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
But it was all it, I’m not blaming the growers.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. But by now though, we should have plenty of time to get this ball going.
Tim Pickett:
I’m just saying that there are so many things along that pathway, along that supply chain. The small tweaks in the beginning.
Brent:
I’m pretty sure you guys have heard about the gerrymandering that went on with all the license being handed out. And I think there was some corruption in there. There’s been some investigating and there’s been found to be corruption.
Tim Pickett:
Yes. Not really publicized.
Brent:
These licenses were given to people that had no clue what they’re doing.
Tim Pickett:
Totally agree with this.
Brent:
Most of them.
Chris Holifield:
I’ve read about it in the paper, but we’ve never really talked about it on the podcast.
Tim Pickett:
Because nobody will come on. I’ve invited a few of these people on our podcast, I’ve decided not… So far, we haven’t named names of the people that I’ve invited on, but they don’t respond.
Chris Holifield:
Is it just because they don’t have the knowledge of growing. Is that really what it is? They get these licenses and then they don’t even know how to grow.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I mean, they were in on the permitting process and they got their applications approved. There was actually growers that didn’t even plan on growing and were forced by the state to start to grow. The state went to them and said, “Okay, when are you going to grow?” And they were like, “Well, we’re just going to wait maybe a couple of years.” And the state had to tell them, “No, you’ve got to grow. This is part of why we give you a license.”
Chris Holifield:
Even though they rejected other people, that probably would have been growing right away.
Tim Pickett:
Well, sure. And you know what? We all complain, we don’t all complain. I don’t complain about Tryke but there’s plenty of complaints about Tryke in the marketplace, but God bless them. They got there.
Chris Holifield:
They got supply out there.
Tim Pickett:
They got supply out there, and they have been really great at getting people flower.
Chris Holifield:
And some of it is really good.
Tim Pickett:
Yes. Some of it is really good. And I think Zion has really stepped up their production, and they’ve got a lot more product going out. And other than those two, well who’s the other one you were talking about Riverside,
Brent:
Oakbridge.
Tim Pickett:
Oakbridge.
Brent:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim Pickett:
Right. And how much grow we need. If somebody is out there listening from Oakbridge, we want to have you on the podcast,
Chris Holifield:
Please, please reach out to Tim or myself.
Tim Pickett:
Because we need more growers to come out and tell the story. It’s a gap in our knowledge, other than like Zion and Tryke.
Brent:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
We know them and we know Wholesome. We know their story, and we know their process of trying to get their grow going. But other than that, I don’t really know.
Brent:
It’s going to be tough because they literally have to be willing to like set their ego aside and admit to the fact that they’re trying to learn. They don’t know how currently, and they’re trying to learn, which everybody does. I get, it’s a process, but that’s, what’s going on. Only a few people know how to do it. And yeah, you’re right. People do complain about these big companies coming in and taking the market, but they can deliver it, they know what they’re doing.
Tim Pickett:
Right. And we need a delivery. Okay. You know who I forgot that I really feel bad about because I’ve met with them a past couple of weeks, is Dragonfly.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. They got good stuff coming out.
Tim Pickett:
They have great product and they have really tried to do it all in-house and do it in a right way. Like you say, they’ve had to learn all of this stuff as they go, but they brought in really good people in the beginning to help. But Dragonfly stepped up. They had product, they had flower, faster than anybody. So kudos to them too.
Brent:
Absolutely.
Tim Pickett:
They’ve really tried their hardest to get product on the shelf for people.
Brent:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
I liked those guys a lot too.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Brent:
Have you had them in? I know…
Chris Holifield:
The Dragonfly?
Brent:
Yeah.
Chris Holifield:
Oh yeah, episode three.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah Narith. Narith came in episode three. And in fact, we’ve been talking to him about coming on again because it’s their one year anniversary. They actually won one of the best cannabis companies to work for in the nation.
Brent:
Wow.
Tim Pickett:
They’re women owned and minority owned. They do a ton for their employees. They’re a very good place to work. And my experience with Dragonfly now that I know them a little bit better, it does seem likely like to do things in-house, their own. They have a plan. They work hard for sure.
Brent:
Yeah. That woman is a business woman. She knows what she’s doing. And she is a shark. She is a go getter. She gets it done.
Tim Pickett:
She does. Yeah. Hoang.
Brent:
We should bring her on.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I would love to have her on. She has a fascinating story. Her family story. Yeah. And I’ll let her tell it, but definitely she needs to come on because their family story and Dragonfly as a whole has done a lot, I think, for the market and helping things get going.
Chris Holifield:
Where do you see the future of Wasatch Extraction? Just bigger machines pumping out more carts and whatnot, or where do you see this all headed?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Well Like I said, we’re purchasing equipment to get other processes going. We just want a lot of different products going out. We want the live rosin, we want the bubble hash. We want the shatter. Just we want to bring the best to the Utah patients, is really our main goal.
Chris Holifield:
What’s the best way, is there a way that people, that listeners, can find out more about your products or like Fruit of Life, I guess, to find out about the carts and availabilities and stuff, I guess on Instagram, would be the best place.
Brent:
I’ve been slacking on the Instagram, but I do plan on putting more time and energy into that and definitely trying to get back all the messages. So that’s probably the number one place they can interface with us right now. Just send us a direct message on Instagram. We’ll do our best to get back to you guys, we just have a few employees. So a lot of us wear multiple hats. And when it’s time to process, we’re processing. And when it’s time to fill, we’re filling. And then in between, we’re trying to do some social media stuff and stuff like that.
Tim Pickett:
It’s awesome to hear this whole thing.
Chris Holifield:
Do you guys ever need like temp workers or anything? Man, I’m always down to like learn a few things here. Send me a message, say, “Hey Chris, are you busy this weekend?”
Brent:
Do you ever want to come by and take a tour? Let’s have you guys out.
Tim Pickett:
We want to see. Yeah, come and we can post it on our social too. And we can show people how a vape cart’s made.
Brent:
Make sense.
Tim Pickett:
I want to see-
Chris Holifield:
Are you in the Salt Lake here or where?
Brent:
We’re right around the corner.
Chris Holifield:
No kidding.
Brent:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. We’re coming for sure.
Brent:
Pleasure. Let’s do it.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Look for how to make a vape cart video.
Brent:
There you go.
Chris Holifield:
Do you still run into a lot… You probably don’t run into as much. Remember when vape carts got a bad name, they were dirty you know. I mean, they still kind of have a bad name if you get street ones and stuff, but did you deal with much of that on your end or not really?
Brent:
I mean a hundred percent because our number one selling product is a vape cartridge and we were planning on producing that product when all that was going on. And from what I took from everything I learned about that situation was, it was a really quickly diagnosed to a limited source of black market cartridges that were putting, what was it, Vitamin E?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Vitamin E acetate.
Brent:
Exactly.
Tim Pickett:
But there has been some concern that like MCT oil or stuff like that. I mean, are there things that Wasatch has said, “Look, we will not put that in a vape cart because it’s dangerous.”
Brent:
A hundred percent. Yeah. We didn’t even want to mess around with it. We don’t put MCT in our carts. It’s literally pure distillate with very minute amounts of terpenes added to it.
Tim Pickett:
Okay, cool.
Brent:
But it’s pure distillate. Other than that, we didn’t want to mess around with any of that popcorn line junk that was going on.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. So just keep it as clean and as pure as possible.
Brent:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim Pickett:
And I mean, it seems like everybody has gone that direction, whether or not anything else that was being added was totally safe or not.
Brent:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
And that as well, not added at all.
Brent:
Yeah. I mean, people are putting all sorts of crazy stuff in there. And who knows what that turns into once you put it under a temperature. It could turn into a toxic chemical that could be harming you.
Tim Pickett:
That’s how the vitamin E came about. It’s a food grade product. It’s totally okay to ingest, but once you heat it and you inhale it into your lungs, bad news. And it just wasn’t tested for that.
Chris Holifield:
Probably another good reason to get product from somebody like yourself. Product that had been extracted from you, at like beehive or whatnot, because you know, it’s safe.
Tim Pickett:
Don’t you think that’s true too? I mean buying, I’ve never done it, but I’m sure there are cartridges off the black market you could buy.
Brent:
Oh yeah.
Tim Pickett:
That are like, why would you do that? That’s pretty risky.
Chris Holifield:
Hey. I bought an off the black market carts.
Tim Pickett:
Have you?
Chris Holifield:
Well, way before Utah… I mean…
Tim Pickett:
Well, and that’s what you had to do and flower too. Right?
Chris Holifield:
Oh yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Everybody’s buying everything.
Brent:
No. I’m all for complete legalization of all substances, but I’m all for regulation. They need to be safe and they need to be administered the right way. And if something goes wrong, then you can help people. And you don’t have the people leaving their friends on the floor dying because they’re scared of going to jail themselves. Things that are kept on the black market, you’re literally… That money is going to gangs and cartels and stuff like that in big part. Those are the people you’re supporting. And I mean, there’re little guys and stuff like that, but it’s like, “If you guys want to do this right. Do it out in the open, we can all talk about it. We can all do it right.”
Chris Holifield:
And I think that’s happening more and more.
Brent:
A hundred percent. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
It’s been fun having this conversation. I’ve learned a lot today.
Chris Holifield:
Anything more you want to talk about before we wrap this up, or anything more that you wanted to make sure to bring up or…
Brent:
I’m just excited that what’s going on in Utah right now is going on. I thought it would be much further down the line, so it’s just really cool to see it all happening. And I get that it’s baby steps. A lot of people are really frustrated about certain things, but it’s like, “Hey guys, it’s a process.”
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. It takes time. It takes time. I mean, any state, even Colorado took years before it established, yet you can go there and get cheaper products. You can go there and get more product, but they’ve also been around a lot longer and they’ve…
Tim Pickett:
They’ve worked this out. Those thanks Brent.
Chris Holifield:
So give us time. Give us time So go connect with, with you guys and see what you got going on.
Brent:
@TheFruitOfLifeUtah is our Instagram. We do have a Facebook as well, but we’re most active on Instagram, but definitely give us a message. If you guys have anything you are looking for and you want us to produce, please let us know. We’d love to make that happen.
Chris Holifield:
Very cool.
Tim Pickett:
Well cool.
Chris Holifield:
And then utahmarijuana.org/podcast is where you can listen to this podcast and listen to all the back episodes because there’s well over 50 of them up there now.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. There’re episodes there. You can find us on YouTube at Discover Marijuana. All the podcasts are being uploaded. I think we’re more than halfway through uploading all of those. So if that happens to be your method of choice, your delivery method, right?
Chris Holifield:
And then connect with us on social media too Instagram, Facebook, The Whole Nine Yards, shift with utahmarijuana.org, Instagram, whatnot.
Tim Pickett:
And go take a listen to I Am Salt Lake.
Chris Holifield:
Oh yeah, I haven’t talked about that for a few episodes on my other podcast. I Am Salt Lake. Iamsaltlake.com, go listen that. Go back to episode 420 with Tim. Tim was on episode 420. That was a fun episode.
Tim Pickett:
That was fun.
Chris Holifield:
That was good with him. That was over a year ago.
Tim Pickett:
Where this whole thing got started.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. So, well thanks a lot, Brent.
Brent:
Thank you guys for having me. It was awesome.
Chris Holifield:
Absolutely. Let’s bring you on down the road.
Tim Pickett:
All right everybody. Stay safe out there.
During a Utah in the Weeds podcast from late 2020, hosts Tim and Chris welcomed guest Desiree Hennesey from Utah Patients Coalition, with strong legislative ties in hopes of talking about what’s going on with Medical Cannabis at the state level. They learned of an effort to change the law so that any licensed doctor in the state can prescribe Medical Marijuana without having to go through the process to become a Qualified Medical Provider (QMP).
What do you think? Should any doctor be able to write your prescription? There are a lot of people that think so. Loosening up the QMP requirements might even convince some doctors still on the fence to climb over into the greener fields of Medical Cannabis. Would this help or hurt patients across the state?
Those in favor of the rule changes suggest that allowing all doctors to prescribe would:
Proponents want patients to have easy access to Medical Marijuana, but should Medical Cannabis be as easy to get as penicillin? That is what it boils down to.
Right now, almost 600 of Utah’s doctors, PAs and NPs are registered Qualified Medical Providers, allowed by the state of Utah, to recommend Medical Marijuana to their patients. These providers have completed 4 hours of specialized training and registered with the Department of Health in order to make these recommendations. Doctors who are not registered, and are not QMPs, stay away from Medical Marijuana for plenty of reasons. Some do not think it is worth their while. Others are afraid they don’t know enough about cannabis. Some still aren’t sure where they stand in terms of liability.
Right now, the majority of Medical Providers actively working with patients are located in the Provo and Salt Lake areas. If you live in rural Utah, you could end up driving quite a distance just to see a Medical Cannabis specialist. You might have to drive to get to a dispensary now, too. But as more dispensaries open, wouldn’t it be nice if there were more doctors helping patients get their Medical Cannabis cards? More participating doctors means less travel for a lot of patients.
There is another aspect to the legislation that deserves some serious consideration. It has been proposed that the state allow any licensed doctor to assist patients in obtaining a Medical Cannabis card, with or without QMP training. But when it comes time to write an actual recommendation, the task will be left to a Medical Cannabis pharmacist.
This sort of thing is risky in a number of ways.
If all the doctor is required to know is that the patient sitting in their office legitimately suffers from a qualifying medical condition, it’s only half the job. The second half is evaluating what treatment options are best for that patient and recommending the best possible options. Though we would not necessarily expect a medical provider to fully understand cannabis and the cannabinoid system, we would expect the doctor to know at least what the main benefits and risks are, the legal implications for their patient, and how to educate their patient on those things.
It is a pharmacist’s job to understand drugs and how they affect patients. This makes a pharmacist a great source of information and education for Medical Cannabis patients. But the idea of allowing all doctors to be a Qualified Medical Provider and to recommend Medical Cannabis to patients and leaving all the work to the pharmacist is potentially risky for doctors and could be risky for patients.
So. should all doctors in the state of Utah be allowed to prescribe Medical Marijuana? Some people think so. And if they have their way, the rules in Utah could be changed this year.
Utah in the Weeds Episode 52 features a fascinating discussion with two hemp growers named Josh and Derrick. They are friends who met through their shared appreciation of disc golf. Josh’s background is in plant biology where Derrick’s is in the medical side of things. Between them, they run two businesses: Uinta Cannabis in Utah and Utah Hemp Growers based in Nevada.
Uinta Cannabis was the first company formed. During the conversation, the partners revealed that Josh had the idea to become a grower first. After talking to a lot of people but not finding any interest, he met Derrick. They came up with a viable business plan and recruited investors.
The idea for the Utah Hemp Growers marketplace was born out of a desire to sell raw flower. The partners were able to initially do so, but then Utah law changed. Now they have to sell from Nevada. Incidentally, their Nevada company only sells hemp products produced by Utah growers.
Josh and Derrick discussed the many hoops they have to jump through to make their business work. For starters, they had to secure a lease before they could even apply for a license. Since then, they have gone to great lengths to maintain regulatory compliance.
Josh and Derrick also spent time discussing their philosophy of focusing on product experience rather than chasing specific cannabinoid profiles. They explained that experience is more important because people react to profiles differently. It is an interesting approach that Tim and Chris seemed to warm to as they listened to the explanation.
Episode 52 is the latest in a line of interviews from business owners actively on the ground. If you are interested in what it takes to get hemp to market, this is a conversation for you.
More Information Coming Soon…
Follow the podcast at UtahMarijuana.org, or leave us a message at (385) 215-9557.
Check out Chris Holifield’s other podcast, I am Salt Lake.
Subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Discover Marijuana.
Chris:
All right, let’s welcome everybody out today to episode 52 of Utah in the Weeds. How are you doing today, Tim?
Tim:
I’m doing good, Chris. I’m excited for episode 52 in this conversation with these two guys with some military background, right?
Chris:
Yeah, Josh and Derrick from Utah Hemp Growers and Uinta Cannabis. They got a fantastic story of kind of how they started growing hemp and how it kind of evolved into this business selling other Utah hemp farmer’s hemp basically to people here in Utah.
Tim:
Right, created a marketplace because there really wasn’t one for their products and a good discussion about the intricacies, again, of this getting into the hemp growing space and what you have to do to sell smokable flower in Utah and some of those technicalities. I thought the biggest takeaway for me, Chris, with this interview was that sometimes more regulation is better.
Chris:
Yeah, exactly.
Tim:
Right, because there’s clear … There’s a clearer pathway to your business model and to getting people the products that they need.
Chris:
Yeah, no, I think our listeners are going to love this conversation. I was actually really excited after we finished recording. I’m like I can’t wait to get this up for everybody to listen to. So make sure you stick around for the whole conversation. We’re going to get into that here in just a minute. Utahmarijuana.org/podcast is where you can listen to all the podcast episodes. Make sure you’re sharing them with your family and friends because that’s how we get the word out about the podcast. Is there anything going on, anything new, with you, Tim, going on that you need to share with our listeners?
Tim:
I mean here we come up, this will be the first episode in April and 4/20 is going to come up. We have Earth Day. We’ll be announcing some service that we want to do through utahmarijuana.org in the next couple of weeks, so stay tuned for the next episodes on that. Yeah, I mean this is just an exciting month. It’s the celebratory month-
Chris:
Yeah, 4/20, baby!
Tim:
Right.
Chris:
We finally got a 4/20 that we can celebrate and hopefully, I want to have some good episodes this month. Well, we got good episodes every week. So make sure to subscribe-
Tim:
You ought to stay tuned.
Chris:
… in whatever podcast app you listen to. We got a brand new episode every week, 4:20 a.m. on Friday. Let’s get into that episode with Josh and Derrick from Uinta Cannabis and Utah Hemp Growers.
Tim:
All right, enjoy everybody.
Chris:
Thanks for listening.
Tim:
Yeah, I mean here we are with Josh and Derrick. I mean how did you guys meet?
Josh:
Well, I had had the idea for getting a grow started for quite some time and I had gone through quite a few people with the idea, saying, “Hey, I’m thinking about starting up a cannabis grow,” and most people were kind of under that assumption of just like oh yeah, you want to grow free weed, whatever.
Tim:
Right, of course.
Josh:
And so, it was actually-
Tim:
And it was popular like when are you having these conversations?
Josh:
I mean I had approached some family and friends with a legitimate business plan saying, “Hey, I want to get this going,” and there was the initial excitement and then it would fizzle out into nothing-
Tim:
Right.
Josh:
… and so-
Tim:
You’re like wow, this is so great. We’re going to grow cannabis.
Josh:
Yeah, and I’m like okay, but this is a serious business. We’re going to be farmers. It’s work every day and so approaching people, it would just … Like I said, just fizzle out and I actually approached Derrick about it, just in passing conversation at our little disc golf group and he actually showed interest and so we got to talking about it and then we thought up a business plan and started drafting up ideas and started raising capital and just went from there.
Chris:
Wow. How did the two of you even meet?
Josh:
Through common friends.
Chris:
Through common friends? Okay.
Josh:
Yeah, yeah, through kind of a disc golf crew-
Chris:
Disc golf. Man, that’s one of those things I need to learn how to-
Josh:
Oh, it’s fantastic.
Chris:
I hear from everybody about how much fun that game is and I’ve never played.
Tim:
It is a fun game and there is nowhere you have to pay for it, right?
Josh:
No, it’s free.
Tim:
It’s free everywhere you play.
Josh:
Yeah, except-
Tim:
There’s a cool course in West Bountiful that I’ve played at. There used to be a course up at the University of Utah but I think they’ve taken most of it down?
Derrick:
Yeah, that was a free course. Yeah, I think they took a good portion of it down. I play mainly at Creekside. So it’s free-
Tim:
Oh, okay.
Derrick:
It’s beautiful. It’s like one of the first 50 courses in the entire country. It’s great.
Tim:
I think if you just show up and throw a disc, I mean that’s my experience, right?
Josh:
Yeah, you can show up and start on hole four and play through hole nine and walk out, so yeah.
Tim:
Okay, well-
Josh:
I still suck at it.
Tim:
Yeah, well.
Chris:
So, what came first, Uinta cannabis or Utah Hemp Growers. I would imagine Uinta Cannabis came first…
Josh:
Uinta Cannabis came first. That was thought up beginning of 2019 and we got serious about it early fall, raised the capital that we needed from some friends and family and our life savings, both of … Just all the money that we had and so we filed for the permits and-
Chris:
Was it tough to file for all that? I mean were there obstacles? I mean this is Utah we’re talking about here.
Derrick:
Oh, wow, yeah, obstacles.
Josh:
The biggest obstacle by far was that the law required us to have a location locked in before we could file for our grow license, which kind of sucked because-
Chris:
So, you had to have a leased signed? You had to sign a lease almost-
Josh:
Correct.
Chris:
… get into debt and not even be guaranteed-
Josh:
… before we could get a grow license.
Derrick:
Correct.
Tim:
Yeah, how does the landlord look at that? He’s like you’ve signed a lease, you’re hooked.
Josh:
Yeah, so-
Tim:
Whether you get a permit or not.
Josh:
Yeah, exactly. We went through-
Tim:
Right, you’re going to grow potatoes, you’re going to grow cannabis.
Josh:
Yeah, we went through about 15 different locations of people not calling us back-
Derrick:
Flat out saying no.
Josh:
… stringing us along. The second that you mention cannabis, they’re just like nope, we want nothing to do with that.
Derrick:
No, thank you.
Tim:
What year is this that you’re-
Josh:
2019.
Derrick:
Yeah.
Tim:
Oh my gosh, this is so recent.
Josh:
Yes.
Derrick:
Yes.
Tim:
But this is during the time when … And we’ve talked to quite a few guests about this, the time when CBD oil and biomass is still profitable.
Josh:
Yeah, one acre was like $150,000.
Derrick:
Yeah, ridiculous. Yeah.
Tim:
You were right at the end.
Josh:
Green rush.
Tim:
I mean you were getting into the business right before it just-
Josh:
Well, I saw … I saw the writing on the wall-
Tim:
… crushes you.
Josh:
… that everyone’s going to jump in. People are going to jump in that have never touched cannabis and the markets going to-
Tim:
Or never been farmers.
Josh:
… or never been farmers and it’s going to inflate it and crash it and look what happened.
Tim:
Wow.
Josh:
Yeah.
Tim:
What are you thinking about all this, Derrick? When all this is going on, what’s going through your mind? Not the crash, the ramp up into it, we’ll get to that.
Derrick:
Oh, the ramp up into the business?
Tim:
Yeah.
Derrick:
Oh, I was all for it. I was coming from a little bit different perspective of Josh. Josh has the plant biology background under his belt where I had more of the medical side. I came through a … My process of being a personal trainer and a crossfit coach and then going to physical therapy assistance school, getting a degree in exercise science, business management, like so that’s where I came from is seeing people who were utilizing either THC or CBD as a health and wellness mechanism and then I got to see the dichotomy of people using opiates and I don’t think I have to go into the opiate crisis that Utah is going through. So, I saw what those were doing for people and then right around that same time, Josh comes with this idea and it was just kind of an easy transition for me.
Tim:
So, 15 locations and you get one-
Josh:
We finally got one. I mean we have to be completely transparent from the get-go. You can’t like … You can’t say we plan on growing plants and then let them find out it’s cannabis later. So, we finally found a landlord that was willing to work with us, locked in the lease, supplied for the licenses, got the licenses and then started the process of getting our business license and our first crop went in end of 2019 and we were like, let’s do this, it’s great. The only thing that can shut us down is if the world were to stop.
Derrick:
And that’ll never happen, right?
Chris:
Right, I mean that’ll never-
Derrick:
Something happened in 2020 that shut the world down.
Josh:
2020 hits and …
Tim:
Yeah, this is 2019.
Chris:
Now, did you end up getting a place here in Salt Lake? I mean obviously, I don’t need to know the exact location but what area are you in kind of because we’ve chatted with people in Logan, Sandy, I was just kind of curious about where you were at.
Derrick:
Yeah, we’re in South Salt Lake, a little-
Chris:
Okay, okay.
Derrick:
… about 1800 square foot warehouse.
Chris:
Okay, indoor grow?
Tim:
Everything’s indoor?
Josh:
Everything’s indoor.
Tim:
Why do you want to do indoor? Was that a choice?
Josh:
Yeah, I prefer indoor hydroponic or aeroponic just because of the level of control that you have over the plants. It’s a lot harder to do and you have a much, much smaller window than using soil but you have a much higher level of control in like your nutrient uptake and your water uptake and your lights and everything.
Tim:
Right, you can control the spectrum of light, the timing of the light. We’ve been to some of the medical grows and yeah, I mean they control everything.
Josh:
Yeah, I basically used everything that I had learned growing THC and just translated it directly over to help.
Tim:
Where’d you learn that?
Josh:
I spent a year up in Oregon supervising my own grow and making every mistake you can make, like powdery mildew, mites, fungus, gnats, everything, like too much humidity, but I needed that in order to learn what to do and what not to do.
Chris:
We were just talking about Oregon before you guys-
Tim:
I know, we were.
Chris:
… the prices of some marijuana up there.
Tim:
Yeah, the prices of product.
Chris:
An ounce for like what $60 for an ounce?
Tim:
Yeah, grand opening prices, $60 for an ounce, $60 for a top shelf half ounce, I mean it seemed like-
Chris:
Wouldn’t you like those prices to be here?
Tim:
Yeah, right.
Derrick:
That’d be great.
Tim:
Yeah, I mean alternatively, though, you don’t, right? Because you’re in business and like Bob Waters said, “Revenue is fuel.”
Chris:
True.
Josh:
True, there is a way though to be profitable at those prices still.
Tim:
Yeah.
Josh:
And I mean the … I don’t know the total acreage that they said that’s needed to supply the entire United States with THC flower is like less than a 100 acres or something.
Tim:
Yeah, just because-
Chris:
Really?
Tim:
Because the plants grow so well. They don’t require as much water. Because you have an indoor grow, all of your products then, or all of your grow is really based on not biomass per se, it’s on flower?
Josh:
Yeah, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim:
And what you can extract from the flower?
Josh:
Well, we’re not doing any kind of extraction. We actually … We hit up Mountain Valley Botanicals. I call them up and I said, “I need to get some flower extracted.” And he was like, “Okay, how many pounds are you working with?” And I was like, “10.” And he was like, “Oh yeah, our minimum size is like 1000 pounds.” I’m like okay, nevermind.
Derrick:
Okay, let’s go.
Tim:
So, really, you focused in … I’m looking in on your website and you focused then a lot on raw flower.
Josh:
Yup.
Derrick:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim:
But you weren’t able to sell raw flower up until now? How does that work in Utah?
Josh:
Well, so we started Uinta Cannabis to sell flower and flower products to customers and then UDAF axed that with the registration law, basically saying products need to be registered in the state of Utah but we will not register any flower or food additive products, which killed our business plan. And so we went to the drawing board thinking what are we going to do? Is this is end? We’ve been in business for less than a year and-
Tim:
You’ve sunk all your money and everybody you’re close to’s money.
Josh:
Yeah.
Tim:
Into this thing.
Josh:
Yeah. We had tried approaching the pharmacies but before the law changes, there was already enough red tape that it was a little bit cost prohibitive and now, since the law changes, it’s just like almost impossible to get it into the pharmacies and so we thought what do we do? And we came up with the idea of starting up a marketplace, a true marketplace for farms in Utah to get their flower and flower products out to the rest of the nation. Well, we couldn’t start a company in Utah, so we started a company in Nevada, completely 100% separate from Uinta Cannabis to act as a true marketplace and from the beginning, we’re the only farm that’s listed on it and we were thinking maybe summer of 2021, one, maybe two farms will approach us and say hey, we’re interested in getting on your marketplace and what can we do.
Josh:
Within the first week of going live mid-December, we had three farms reach out to us saying hey, we need to meet.
Tim:
Three farms from where? From Utah?
Josh:
From Utah. We only carry products from Utah farms.
Derrick:
Yeah, but…
Josh:
Specialize in things grown in Utah.
Tim:
And you realized…
Chris:
This is for utahhempgrowers.com, right?
Josh:
Correct.
Tim:
Right, so this is how Utah Hemp Growers got started?
Josh:
Yup.
Tim:
That’s a Nevada company-
Josh:
Yes.
Tim:
That is a marketplace for, basically, Utah hemp products to be sold around the nation but almost like a co-op?
Josh:
Not really. I mean there’s set boundaries established.
Tim:
Or do they just come and say, hey, look, we want to sell our products. We want you to help us network get these accounts set up and find places where we can sell our stuff?
Josh:
Well, we just open it up to the nationwide marketplace and-
Chris:
Everybody can buy it.
Tim:
Even Utah.
Josh:
Everybody, exactly-
Chris:
Even Utah people can buy it-
Tim:
Because you’re out of Nevada, so you can buy it back to use?
Derrick:
Yeah, that was kind of our main focus is to be able to get flower here.
Josh:
And one of the biggest risks in the hemp market is because so much of it is online, you’re having to take a risk as a customer of buying from a company that is brand new, that you’ve never heard of and that you’ve never met and so from a farmer’s perspective, what’s better than being able to sell what you’ve grown to your community and show-
Tim:
Well, of course, I mean that’s the whole point. We talked last week about this to Margie up in Cash County.
Chris:
The Hemp Folk.
Tim:
Yeah, The Hemp Folk, where this … People want to buy tomatoes from the local farmer-
Josh:
Yeah, exactly.
Tim:
And they’re going to want to buy, eventually, right-
Chris:
Some local CBG.
Yeah, right?
Josh:
Keeps the money in the state too.
Tim:
That’s right but you’ve had to go out of state to get it back in?
Josh:
Yes.
Tim:
A story we’ve heard three or four times now.
Chris:
I mean was that tough to set up? I mean, were there hoops that you had to jump through for that?
Josh:
It’s been a minefield of regulation, just tiptoeing and finding out-
Tim:
Even though it’s in Nevada? Even though-
Josh:
… how to do it right.
Tim:
… Nevada’s … I mean Nevada’s full legal for everything, really. So there probably wasn’t a lot of laws for Nevada that you had to jump through.
Josh:
Yeah, but well, the big sacrifice is we package and fulfill all of our shipments in Nevada and so there have been weeks where we will get one order and it’s a $20 order and we wait a day, maybe two days to see if more will come in and then we just have to bite the bullet, drive out to Nevada, fulfill the order and get it shipped and drive back.
Chris:
So, you have to do everything in Nevada? You can’t do it here in Utah?
Josh:
No.
Tim:
Because it has to be postmarked, that’s the key, right? You can’t hide.
Josh:
Yeah.
Tim:
Because the postmark. If that person was on UDAF and he made the order and it was postmarked here, you’re done.
Josh:
Yeah.
Tim:
Okay, so-
Josh:
There’s people doing it like that here but-
Chris:
Fun to learn about.
Josh:
We don’t delve into that.
Chris:
People don’t realize the obstacles that these guys are jumping through in the … How much extra work they’re doing for really little pay if you ask my opinion.
Tim:
I totally agree and I think also that every time we talk to another hemp grower, we talk to another person in the cannabis marketplace that is not … Specifically not in the medical side, the hoops that you have to jump through, you have to find the hoop, you have to find a way to jump through the hoop. No one is there to help you. The regulations are not clear. Every state is different whereas with the medical program, it does seem like those rules are set. It costs a lot of money to get in. You’re going to have a big infrastructure to do those things that you have to comply, right? To follow those compliance rules? And even though it seems it’s hard to get into the medical side, it does seem more straight forward.
Josh:
Yeah, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim:
Would you agree with that?
Josh:
Oh yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative), yup. The rules for the Utah hemp industry are unclear. They’re pretty undefined.
Tim:
And they that way, do you think, nationwide or is Utah unique there because I’ve also heard that Utah’s hemp laws are some of the best or most progressive or the marketplace is growing better. Is that just marketing?
Josh:
I would say it’s just marketing. I mean most of the country’s going off of USDA laws and with this recent change allowing flower on the shelves, it may look like a step forward but the current writing with 0.3% total THC post harvest means that your Delta-9 levels need to be 0.03 because you have to account for the other cannabinoids to stay under that 0.3.
Tim:
Okay, so let’s talk about the new law changes a little bit and let’s dig into this. Okay, we’re pretty clear on 0.3% or less of THC in any flower. So the law change … Explain what the law changed in Utah with flower … With hemp flower or CBD flower.
Josh:
So, it allowed for hemp flower and hemp flower products to be sold in brick and mortar, in-person, but it changed the wording to 0.3% total THC with a post harvest COA that has to be full-panel as well and then you have your-
Tim:
Uh-huh, so it includes Delta-10, Delta-9, Delta-8-
Josh:
Everything.
Tim:
All of the Deltas-
Josh:
All of the cannabinoids.
Derrick:
All of them.
Josh:
And that needs to be…
Derrick:
0.3 or lower.
Tim:
Okay.
Josh:
And this is after harvest when the plant is more likely to spike in its cannabinoid levels-
Chris:
Wow.
Josh:
So, USDA rules are 0.3 Delta-9 pre-harvest, before the plant has a chance to spike and you’re only measuring one cannabinoid. Utah is all the cannabinoids post harvest and that number needs to be below 0.3.
Tim:
All the tetrahydrocannabinol post harvest, not the CBD, CBG, CBN, all the tetrahydrocannabinol-
Josh:
Yes, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim:
Which is a lot of Deltas, right?
Josh:
Yeah.
Tim:
Now, this is specific because in other states, they’ve had Delta-8, this came up. I think … Tell me if I’m wrong, Delta-8 has been manipulated in other markets to sell something that will kind of get you high?
Josh:
Yeah, and for Utah Hemp Growers, we believe that that’s an imperfect practice. So we have it stated on our website, we will not carry any of that sprayed flower because that Delta-8 extract, it can be extracted or it can be synthesized. You have no idea where it’s coming from and you don’t know, unless you have a reliable, full-panel COA, you don’t know the amount of solvents that are still in that and so what we’re seeing is there’s a lot of people that are … I mean just straight with a paint sprayer, they just spray down the buds with this Delta-8 solution and then try and move it out the door to give you kind of an extra kick. It’s kind of weird. It seems like the new spice hype.
Tim:
Sorry, I had a patient recently that talked about the difference between Delta-8 and Delta-9 from an experience standpoint because there’s not a lot of research in the uptake of Delta-8 in the body. It does seem to be a peripheral uptake, not a brain uptake as much and he described … He smoked a half a gram of Delta-8 concentrate and he just described it as this almost tingly, numbing type feeling throughout his limbs.
Josh:
Oh wow.
Tim:
A much more peripheral experience where he didn’t have that psycho activity but it was still … It still had a significant effect, right?
Josh:
Yeah.
Tim:
And that Delta-8 seemed to be like the reason they changed the rules and the language in the law for the hemp side.
Josh:
Yeah, it’s a big factor in why they’re doing it.
Tim:
But it makes it really hard for you guys to take total THC and keep it under 0.3.
Josh:
Yeah, nearly impossible.
Tim:
Really?
Josh:
Yeah.
Tim:
What happens if your flower’s 0.35 or beyond the … There’s some sort of buffer.
Josh:
Yeah, there’s the 15% buffer. So you can go to 0.35 and still be able to-
Tim:
Still be technically legal?
Josh:
… put it on the market.
Tim:
But what happens if it’s 0.4?
Josh:
0.4, you’re allowed to remediate it into oil or destroy it without penalty and if you go above 1%, then they just notify law enforcement.
Chris:
And then law enforcement comes and arrests you?
Josh:
Yeah.
Tim:
Then the black suburbans show up, oh my god.
Chris:
Even though you didn’t try to. I mean you grew hemp but then it … I mean what are the chances of it being too high?
Tim:
Yeah, how often do you get a hot … What do you call it? A hot crop?
Josh:
A hot crop. Going over 1% is pretty hard.
Chris:
Okay, okay. That’s why I was like, I wonder how hard is that? That might be kind of scary.
Josh:
Yeah, so I mean I can see why they wrote that but it is pretty intimidating.
Chris:
Yeah, noted, noted.
Tim:
I mean is there a way for you guys to test it before they come and test it?
Derrick:
So, we have a pre-harvest test that we pass. So that’s come and done … Performed by the state and then we have a certain window and then we have to do a post-harvest test.
Chris:
Well, I’m just wondering like that you guys can keep an eye on to make sure you’re not getting too hot?
Josh:
Yeah, I mean and growing the same strain over and over again-
Chris:
You kind of figure that out?
Josh:
… we know where it’s going to be and when it’s going to be and when it’s going to … If and when it won’t be compliant and so, there was one strain that we grew first that wasn’t compliant and we got rid of it because it just … It didn’t … It wasn’t even compliant when they came in pre-harvest.
Chris:
Oh right, so you’re like this is not going to work out, it’s just too hard. There’s plenty of other strains. How many strains do you get to choose from before you grow? Are there plenty of options?
Josh:
Oh, there’re tons of options.
Derrick:
Tons, yeah.
Tim:
Really?
Josh:
It doesn’t mean that it’s going to be quality in the end but there’re tons of options out there, yeah.
Tim:
And do you buy seeds or clones?
Josh:
Well, we start with seed and then if it turns out to be a phenotype that we like, then we’ll go off of clone off of just that one phenotype, just for control.
Derrick:
Yeah, like we’ve had three strains that we just pushed out that we didn’t like how any of them turned out as far as weight and we haven’t had a chance to partake upon them yet but just the way that they’re growing and stuff, they’re just not really probably what we’re going to continue with. So, we’re not stuck on any strains but we do have like our flagship, our Blue Mint. It’s a cross-strain of Charlotte’s Web and Harle Tsu that’s just phenomenal and you can’t get it anywhere else.
Tim:
Is the cannabinoid content … Like do you look for mixes of certain type of cannabinoids? Like the Blue Mint, describe that. Like what’s the cannabinoid content in something like that?
Josh:
Our CBD in that runs anywhere between like 13 and 15% but we’re not chasing any specific cannabinoid and we’re not chasing a terpene profile. We just try the flower. We give it out for samples for professional reviews and get feedback and there are some strains out there that we’ve sampled that are 25%, 28% CBD that just don’t cut it. So we’re not chasing any kind of specific profile-
Tim:
You’re chasing the experience?
Josh:
Yeah, does it have a good experience? Does it have good effects-
Derrick:
Yeah, because it’s medicine.
Josh:
Good smell? Good look?
Tim:
Yeah, and you’re hitting on a point here where the entourage effect of an interesting profile based on the person that consumes it, the way it’s consumed and that sort of thing can change, even regardless of the content. I think there is too much put on, for example, the percentage of THC in a flower, right?
Josh:
Correct.
Tim:
And we talk about this all the time.
Chris:
Every episode it seems like, right?
Tim:
Yeah, how the THC content, the percentage doesn’t matter, right? There’s been good studies that compare 15% THC to 25% and the reporting is that you just get just as high, right?
Josh:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim:
Or the experience is just as psychoactive. So, I like that approach, that’s pretty cool.
Derrick:
Yeah, the education needs to be … To just catch up and be spread more and more and I think that it’ll catch on over the next few years, hopefully, that people stop chasing individual cannabinoids. Just because it’s 33% THC doesn’t mean that it’s the flower that’s right for you.
Chris:
Yeah.
Tim:
Yeah, interesting. So now, how, with the law change though and you’ve got good product and it meets all the requirements, now can I go to your shop and buy it?
Josh:
Our website, because we don’t have any physical locations?
Tim:
Okay.
Chris:
Well, can we go on your website and get it shipped directly from-
Tim:
Yeah, can now …
Josh:
Yep, directly to your door.
Chris:
So, you don’t have to go to Nevada and ship it to me now?
Josh:
Well, no, now … Well, we still have to drive to Nevada and fulfill it but we can have it shipped right to your door.
Tim:
Okay, but how did the law change to allow smokable flower to be sold in Utah?
Josh:
If it’s being sold in Utah, if the transaction is taking place in Utah, then that product must be 0.3% total THC or less, have a full-panel lab post-harvest and be registered with the state, which I think is like $350 per product.
Tim:
And that’s every time you harvest? Probably.
Josh:
Yes, you must also, if you are going to fulfill that yourself, you have to have your cultivation license and a processing license now.
Tim:
For hemp?
Josh:
For hemp, for hemp.
Tim:
But you can still drive to Nevada and ship it back into Utah without following that part?
Josh:
Well, because we’re a Nevada company operating under Nevada laws under USDA laws-
Tim:
Oh my lordy.
Chris:
So, even with this new law, it doesn’t even matter.
Tim:
So, do you feel like the law is a benefit or is it a step in the right direction or does it just create a different set of issues?
Josh:
it’s a different set of issues because it’s going to open up the floodgates for low grade flower on Utah shelves-
Derrick:
People are going to-
Josh:
Because it has to stay under that percentage.
Derrick:
Yeah, people are going to get their first hemp experience buying let’s say a pre-roll in a store and it’s going to be a less than ideal experience.
Chris:
Because the company that makes that pre-roll or sells that flower is probably going to be a company that just grows in bulk and is there to make the profits and they just want to sell a product on the shelf, but they have enough money to jump through those new hoops?
Josh:
And staying compliant with that 0.3 total THC, that flower is going to have very, very low levels of all cannabinoids.
Tim:
And again, we have got to get to a point where we can have a range of zero THC all the way up to 30-whatever percent there is now and find ways to allow people to make these choices with their, in my opinion, medical provider, who can help make these choices on hey, you know what? You don’t want to get stoned out of your mind but you need something that’s like 1% or 2% THC, right? Because there’s none of that on the market.
Josh:
Yeah, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim:
Right, that doesn’t exist.
Josh:
It’s either high CBD or high THC batch.
Tim:
It’s 12-plus, 12 is way low THC or it’s 0.3% and less.
Derrick:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah, we’re getting really good feedback though on people that are mixing on a one-to-one ratio.
Tim:
Okay, so talk about that with regard to your products, like what’s the process of using these products and how best do we use them? Teach me. Teach me how to incorporate hemp flower, non-psychoactive essentially of cannabis flower into my regimen.
Derrick:
Well, I should say, it is psychoactive. It’s non-intoxicating.
Tim:
Got it. Okay, you’re of the school that, okay, when I say well, CBD is not psychoactive and you’re like well, actually, if you go to the definition of psychoactivity, then yes, it is because it’s calming-
Derrick:
People will feel an effect-
Tim:
Right, you can feel an effect.
Derrick:
… but you will not be intoxicated to where you’re couch locked or-
Tim:
Okay, yeah, totally fair.
Josh:
Yeah, it takes off like that top heaviness.
Tim:
Cannabis/marijuana, marijuana/cannabis.
Derrick:
Yeah, right.
Josh:
You can use it during the day for some strains … Well, for a lot of hemp strains to help with anxiety, inflammation, energy. Mixing it, people like to say that CBD nullifies THC. It does not nullify it. It works alongside it to help balance it out to where you’re not getting that spiral effect from ingesting too much THC and now you need to lay down because the world is spinning around you. It helps to balance that out to where you can have a nice psychoactive effect from the THC without going down that spiral.
Chris:
You’re building your own 3% product or 5% product essentially.
Derrick:
Correct, yeah.
Chris:
Right?
Derrick:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris:
From a physical standpoint, when you’re talking about training and you had talked about your coaching, Derrick, before, I mean do you see that more and more people in your old world, the crossfit world, the people who are really into their health are moving this direction?
Derrick:
Yeah, absolutely. People are sick of all the fillers in all the medicine. They’re sick of balms not really working whereas we have a salve that’s actually like healing people. They’re not having to kind of rely on it for a daily thing, they’re using it for like a week and their injury is fixed.
Josh:
Yeah, we’re careful not to make any medical claims and so all of this feedback is just … It’s coming unsolicited from customers that just send back feedback saying, “This helped me.” We’ve had feedback from people with epilepsy saying, “This is changing my quality of life. This flower is changing my quality of life,” and we’re not putting out, “Oh, this will fix your epilepsy.” We’re not saying that. We just say, “Here’s a product that has passed out standards for quality and we’re putting it out there because of its medicinal benefits. Use it as you see fit.” And then we get the feedback of people saying this is changing my life for the better.
Tim:
Oh, that’s cool. Do you want to get into the medical side?
Josh:
Eventually, yeah, that’d be great.
Chris:
When a license opens up, I guess, huh?
Josh:
And we have the …
Chris:
But at least you’ll have the experience now, right? And you’ll kind of already have your foot in the door.
Josh:
Correct.
Derrick:
Oh yeah.
Tim:
Yeah, and how many square feet is your grow?
Josh:
We have a total of about 1750 square feet and we’re using a third of it but we’re working on filling up the rest of it. So we’re really small.
Tim:
Yeah, yeah but as far as that goes, though, I mean it gives you really good opportunity to learn, grow, get established and then I mean, heck, there will be more-
Chris:
Oh, there’ll be more. There’ll be more.
Tim:
… medical here eventually. They’ll need more. They’ll need more different types of people and Utah’s interesting. When you look at like beer sales or beer … Like the breweries, for a longtime, it didn’t seem like Utah was a good place to buy beer-
Chris:
It’s one of the best now.
Tim:
But it’s one of the best now.
Chris:
In my opinion.
Josh:
Yeah.
Tim:
Yeah, I mean we win all kinds of awards and even the low alcohol content of the beer almost made people work harder to make better beer-
Derrick:
Yeah.
Tim:
… and that craft product could translate into cannabis-
Derrick:
Exactly.
Tim:
… in Utah. We seem to be that type of group.
Chris:
It’ll be craft cannabis here, right?
Tim:
Right? And have some craft cannabis groups with small grows and-
Josh:
There’s always going to be a market for that small craft cannabis grow.
Chris:
Yeah. So, a couple of weeks ago we were talking to Margie, from The Hemp Folk, and she was talking about some interesting stories of mailing hemp. Have you guys run into any like interesting situations as far as hemp not getting to people or anything like … Yeah, she was telling us like-
Tim:
Oh my gosh.
Chris:
… she lost like $25,000 from one-
Derrick:
Oh wow.
Josh:
Yeah, well-
Chris:
… The post office just kept opening up her packages.
Derrick:
I wonder if she had like writing like her business name on there, yeah.
Chris:
The smell. I guess it was the smell.
Derrick:
Well, we haven’t had any issues with smell. The bags that we use are reliable and we’re actually phasing them out to get the child-proof bags. It’ll be more expensive but we’re staying compliant with how Utah has written the laws, so we changed up our labeling to be compliant and now we’re changing up the packages, even though I would say maybe 5% of our orders actually go to Utah. The rest of them go to the rest of the states but we’ve had-
Chris:
Oh, interesting.
Derrick:
… Yeah, we’ve had no issues with the packaging. I actually … When I sent out my first package, I had written Utah Hemp Growers on the return address-
Tim:
And you’re like, that’s a bad thing.
Derrick:
Well, the lady at the post office was like, “You should probably not do that.”
Tim:
Yeah.
Derrick:
Like just giving you some advice and so it really is just avoiding those things that say like CBD, hemp, cannabis, anything on the packaging that advertises it because then all it takes is one curious set of eyes to pry open your package and now it’s delayed. It never arrives. You lose your money.
Chris:
Yeah, you can put like … I’m trying to think of something to put. BYU or something like that.
Tim:
It’s the same thing with us, right? At Utah Therapeutic Health Center, our logo is the state with a cannabis leaf in it and we have a logo without the leaf because there are documents that we need to send that don’t … They don’t need that type of scrutiny, right? And it is a part of this business.
Chris:
It’s sad though that it has to be that way.
Tim:
Yeah, I think that it’s changing a little bit certainly you don’t want to go to the bank with that logo, right? You’ve got to have a name that the bank … The bank knows what you do but the bank needs to check their boxes and dot their Is and cross their Ts and they need their applications to flow through.
Chris:
But do you remember … I remember like back in the 90s, it seemed like it was the 90s, that like friends would wear like pot shirts and you’d be like, “Oh my gosh, you’re just asking to get tarred.”
Josh:
Yeah, for sure.
Chris:
Now, people wear it and it’s like, it’s okay.
Tim:
It is true. Now, this morning-
Chris:
So, it just goes to show-
Tim:
… We had this conversation at my house because we have some T-shirts that are healthcare-
Chris:
That have pot leaves on them?
Tim:
… to buzz about and they have the THC molecule on them and a couple of bees and they’re super cool T-shirts, I really like them. And then on the back, it’s classy on the front and then on the back, it says, utahmarijuana.org. And my son, who’s in sixth grade, he comes to me and he’s like, “Hey, it’s St. Patrick’s Day, I don’t have anything green, what do you think, Dad?” And he laughs. He just chuckles. He’s like yeah, they’d kick me out.
Chris:
No, but I mean there was a time when you-
Tim:
You can only go so far.
Derrick:
Yeah.
Chris:
… couldn’t wear it. You’d be targeted.
Tim:
Oh yeah. Well, the Utah in the Weeds sweatshirts, right? We wore those around all the time.
Chris:
Yeah, and you couldn’t wear-
Tim:
No way.
Chris:
… Like 20-30 years ago, you couldn’t do that.
Tim:
Oh yeah, there’s no way.
Chris:
But so things are changing.
Derrick:
The one kid with the weed hoodie in high school and everyone looks at him like, we know.
Tim:
Yeah, like oh, we know. Yup.
Chris:
Yeah, because it’s like oh yeah, you’re just a supporter.
Tim:
Right, oh yeah, sure you’re an advocate.
Josh:
That was actually my first experience with cannabis is back in high school. I actually tried growing it.
Tim:
You did?
Josh:
Yeah.
Chris:
Did it fail or did you succeed?
Josh:
Oh, I thought I was like on top of the world and I was acting so stealthy and I had three little plants in solo cups under my computer desk and of course, I got caught like almost immediately-
Chris:
By your parents?
Josh:
By my parents.
Chris:
Oh, okay, okay.
Josh:
Who called down to the principal’s office and the school officer’s sitting there with the vice principal and this actually started my path into cannabis because she asked me, she was like, “Why were you growing?” And I told her, “My friends smoke and so I figured I would just grow it and they’re spending all this money on it, that way they don’t have to spend money on it and I’ll be the favorite friend of the group.” And she looked at me and she was like, “Do you want to kill your friends?”
Tim:
Oh my gosh.
Josh:
And I was shocked because I didn’t know anything about it and so I just looked at her and I was like, “Of course not. What did I do?” And so I caught a suspension for that and when I got back, I went to the school library and checked out every single book on cannabis that I could find.
Tim:
Oh wow.
Josh:
And just started reading.
Chris:
Were there a lot?
Josh:
Yeah.
Chris:
Oh wow.
Josh:
People were like … Oh well, like my classmates were like, “Can you be reading that?” And I’m like, “I assume. I checked it out.”
Chris:
I checked it out from the library.
Josh:
Yeah, and I just started reading on the history and everything and was like, she lied to me.
Tim:
Then you go into the military, both of you have military backgrounds, yeah?
Josh:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), yup.
Tim:
You’re air force, Josh?
Josh:
Yes.
Tim:
Derrick?
Derrick:
Navy. I was almost seven years intelligence.
Tim:
Wow.
Derrick:
I was a communicator, so I did satellite communications, radio comms, point-to-point, network security, things of that nature.
Tim:
That’s pretty cool. Have you guys seen the new Army ad, the commercial where it looks like a game and they’ve got the communicator, they’ve got the warrior, right?
Derrick:
Oh, I’ve seen that, yeah.
Tim:
The fighter. They’ve got the replenisher and the chef slices something like the Kung Fu Panda game and then I mean it’s pretty cool but they’ve definitely changed their approach of recruiting to a younger generation.
Derrick:
Yeah, I’m sure the military [crosstalk 00:38:49] sweeping water in a rainstorm.
Josh:
Oh yeah.
Derrick:
Or sweeping water on a ship out in the middle of the ocean.
Chris:
Did you have to do that?
Derrick:
Oh yeah.
Chris:
Wow.
Derrick:
Oh yeah, I did two deployments on a ship and then one actually where I was boots on ground in Baghdad and so I go to see the silliness of a shipboard deployment and then what it’s like being attached to detainee operations at a joint taskforce.
Tim:
Hmm.
Chris:
Wow.
Tim:
Interesting. And in the military, did you have any exposure to cannabis in the military?
Derrick:
No, just keeping up with the news and everything. Like seeing the news in 2012 with Colorado legalizing and being like oh, great, I can do nothing about that.
Chris:
I can watch, yeah. The military kind of frowns on cannabis, right?
Josh:
Yeah, I was actually in … I was stationed in Colorado Springs right around the time when that all went legalized, so …
Chris:
But you can’t partake in Colorado Springs even though it’s legal?
Josh:
No, no sir.
Chris:
Because you’re federal.
Josh:
Correct, yeah.
Tim:
Actively engaged in like … Receiving funds from the federal government other than being a veteran. If you’re a veteran, you can’t lose your benefits for using state-regulated medical cannabis but if you’re active duty, work for the FBI, work for anybody, you can’t touch it. In fact, I mean we have friends in the state department that they don’t even follow us on Facebook or … And they’re close friends. They just can’t have that sort of stuff coming up on their feed and I mean she doesn’t even email me.
Chris:
Even hemp and CBD, you can’t even … Could you use hemp or CBD products in the military?
Josh:
Nope.
Derrick:
No.
Chris:
Today, could they?
Josh:
Anything cannabis.
Derrick:
No, yeah.
Chris:
Like even just go to the gas station and get some CBD tincture, they can’t even use that?
Derrick:
Absolutely not.
Josh:
No.
Tim:
Now, I’ve had guys that work up on base and are even scared of a zero THC/CBD product just because they’re … And they just don’t want to take any chances.
Derrick:
Yeah, yeah, there’s zero tolerance.
Tim:
Now, so even last night, though, I was reading some studies on PTSD and cannabis treatment and the Canadian government almost takes the opposite approach. So the only people-
Chris:
Here, get high.
Derrick:
They’re so lucky.
Tim:
… in Canada that get free federally covered cannabis as medicine, that’s covered under their national healthcare, are military veterans. Move up there and if you’re a veteran of the Canadian military, you’re covered. You can go into the dispensary and they will buy your cannabis for you.
Josh:
Yeah, and they can grow beards, which is awesome.
Tim:
And they can grow beards.
Derrick:
That’s great.
Tim:
Yeah, it’s just such a different approach.
Josh:
Yeah.
Tim:
And right across the border, right?
Derrick:
Yeah, and active duty, as long as it’s not directly interfering with your work, you can consume all the alcohol you want.
Chris:
Oh, really. That’ll change here in the US. I think maybe the US will eventually get a little more onboard with their military.
Josh:
Yeah, I would think so.
Chris:
10 years, 20 years maybe.
Josh:
I don’t know, however long it takes. I mean there’re the alternatives. This is the thing that I was researching, is really the alternatives between cannabis and other medications and that’s really where it comes down to is the companies that make benzos and opioids, they don’t want us to stop prescribing those and so they don’t want to do any research on comparative … Does CBD or does hemp flower, smoking hemp flower help you reduce other prescription use? That’s what we need to start. That’s the research that’s not been done yet.
Derrick:
I think they’ve done it in Colorado, several studies, that have shown a year by year decrease in prescription opioid use since legalization.
Josh:
Yup, mm-hmm (affirmative). There is. There is definitely an association with or a correlation with decreased prescribing of opioids and benzos too.
Tim:
So, you have the balm, so you have some type of products … some products are processed, not a lot of products?
Derrick:
We took just a shot with our balm, just let’s make a tiny little batch and see what happens and so the feedback has been great. So the next step is we get our processing license. We start adding more lights and we just keep going.
Tim:
Okay, so you’ve got to grow more, you’ve got to process. So you got to move to the next step?
Derrick:
Yup. Yeah, proof of concept is kind of what we were going for instead of just rushing into it and having all kinds of product or debt that we can’t fulfill. So we have our proof of concept down, we have kind of our flagship strain, so we’re kind of ready to rock and roll.
Chris:
Is it just the two of you? Do you have like employees, like other people trimming or anything or just the two of you?
Josh:
Nope, it’s just the two of us running both companies.
Chris:
Okay, that’s cool and is the marketplace growing?
Josh:
Yes. The marketplace for high quality hemp flower. Now, there’s a lot of average and low quality flower out there since everyone jumped on it, grew 10, 20, 50, 100 acres and now they’re sitting on it and they don’t know what to do with it and so finding the high quality flower is a challenge but I mean we’re taking it on.
Tim:
How do you guys market?
Josh:
That’s tricky.
Derrick:
Like this, word of mouth. Yeah, just getting our name out there.
Josh:
We have no SEO, so we can’t do any kind of online advertising. We have to be careful with any kind of ads that we do put out. We were lucky enough to get a full page ad in the Salt Baked City Magazine, their first one.
Tim:
That’s right, yeah.
Derrick:
Page six or so.
Tim:
That’s right, you guys were right by us.
Josh:
Yup.
Derrick:
Yes, sir.
Josh:
And yeah, there’s a promo code in there if people want to get their hands on it and check that out. We want people to go out and get it.
Chris:
Okay.
Tim:
Yeah.
Josh:
And check it out.
Chris:
So, use that promo code there in Salt Baked City.
Derrick:
15% off little nugget in there for anyone that wants to go and look.
Tim:
Yeah, and you can pick up those magazines at any of the pharmacies. You can pick them up at any of my locations, my clinic locations, Utah Therapeutic Health Center. Yeah, they’re free. It’s a free magazine. Salt Baked City, our ad, Utah in the Weeds, is in there. You guys have stuff in there. They focused on a lot of really cool-
Chris:
Beautiful, beautiful publication.
Tim:
Yeah, it’s a beautiful layout. And it describes a lot of the process of the over the course of the year and the people who are really involved in that.
Josh:
Yeah, I’m looking forward to more.
Derrick:
Yeah, the guy who published it is an incredible guy.
Chris:
Oh, yeah.
Derrick:
Yeah, he really wants to progress the community and we’re happy to be at his side, so it’s really great.
Chris:
Oh cool. Sure. What would you tell somebody … Like let’s say I’ve asked this of a few people that come on the podcast, somebody’s questioning whether they should try some sort of cannabis for something they’re dealing with and they’re a little skeptical of trying it. Is there any advice or suggestions or anything you would tell them if they’re listening right now?
Josh:
I mean if it’s THC-
Chris:
They’re maybe a little worried, I don’t know. Yeah, let’s say THC.
Josh:
THC, well, even CBD, we’re going to be offering like a flower sample pack. So you can get just small amounts of each and try it out-
Chris:
Try it out, yeah.
Josh:
Try one and give yourself ample time to feel the effects and for the effects to dissipate before you try something else. Don’t just try one strain, try another strain, try another strain because then it kind of jumbles all together and you won’t get an accurate representation of how that strain is helping you or if it’s not. But start with a small amount and then when you find something that works, use it and don’t chase a cannabinoid. Don’t try and say, I just need the highest THC, I need the highest CBD, I need the highest of this one terpene because you don’t know what strain is going to work and what strain isn’t until you try it.
Chris:
Exactly.
Tim:
This is just good advice like for people who don’t want to get high but they want to feel what cannabis feels like and they want to use it as medicine potentially, hemp flower is a good place to start.
Josh:
Yeah, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim:
The get into the experience, get a little dry herb vaporizer, grind some up, vaporize some hemp flower, see what it feels like. It’s legal, completely legal, you don’t have to have a medical card for it and it is a safe product to try.
Derrick:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, and the standards that we go by, I mean, legally, what’s required is for us to verify some kind of state compliance and that’s it and we don’t even have to post it. So, we take it upon ourselves to post all of our state compliance tests from all the farms that we work with and then post all of the full panel tests that we get so that a customer can see exactly where it was grown, what’s in it, whether it’s terpenes, a cannabinoid profile, the heavy metals, the pesticides, the insecticides, the moisture content, everything. They can see everything and they know exactly where it’s sourced. So we’re trying to provide a consistent, reliable marketplace for customers to buy from.
Tim:
Well, that’s more than you can say about all the vegetables that we buy.
Chris:
Give the web addresses and how people can connect with the both of you or whatnot, I guess.
Josh:
Yeah, we’re on Instagram and Facebook. Our IG is both uinta, without the H, uintacannabis and our other site is utahhempgrowers, all one word.
Chris:
And that’s on Instagram too, I think?
Josh:
That’s on Instagram. Yeah, both of those are Instagram and then we have a Utah Hemp Growers on Facebook.
Chris:
Very cool.
Tim:
Cool.
Chris:
So people, go connect, take advantage of that coupon. It’s in Salt Baked City. Try some of the hemp from your website and say, hey, you know what? I heard you on Utah in the Weeds, right?
Josh:
Oh, absolutely.
Tim:
That’s right. Yeah, cool. It was really nice to meet you guys. Thanks for coming down.
Chris:
Yeah, really great. Anything more you want to add? Anything more you want to talk about before we wrap this episode up? While the mics are still on?
Josh:
I mean we got … For Uinta Cannabis, we have some new strains in the works and we just brought on our sixth farm that we’re working with, so now we have … Let me just name off the farms here. We have our farm, Uinta Cannabis. We have Carter Kids Construction, Hemp Ventures Utah, Honeycomb Hemp, Puff Hemp and I’m missing one.
Chris:
I’ll tell you what, if you guys remember it, email us, we’ll put it in the intro to the episode.
Josh:
Beautiful, beautiful.
Chris:
So, they’ll be the first mentioned. So, when they get to the end, they’ll be like oh, you didn’t forget us.
Derrick:
Excellent, fantastic.
Josh:
Yeah, and then we’re talking with other farms and I mean if they’re growing good enough strains and it makes it through our standards, then we’ll list it. So we’re growing.
Chris:
Very cool.
Tim:
Cool.
Chris:
All right, guys.
Tim:
Congratulations, guys. Looking forward to seeing you grow.
Josh:
Lazy Roots, that’s the one.
Chris:
Lazy Roots.
Tim:
Lazy Roots.
Derrick:
Lazy Roots with their pre-rolls. They’re great.
Tim:
Cool.
Josh:
Yup, very cool.
Chris:
Well, thanks for listening to this episode. Make sure to subscribe on whatever podcast app you’re listening to this in. Connect with Uinta Cannabis, Utah Hemp Growers, utahmarijuana.org/podcast is where people can listen to the podcast. Utahmarijuana.org is where they can connect with everything else, am I right, Tim?
Tim:
Yeah, they can connect with everything else we have and all right, everybody. Stay safe out there.
As you may or may not have heard, the 2021 Utah General Legislative Session was held this spring. Many amendments passed in multiple areas of the law in Utah, so rather than going blue in the face listing them all for you, let’s get to the good stuff: amendments to the Utah Medical Cannabis Act. What do patients need to know? What do providers need to know? Join me, if you will, and we’ll dive into some of the most significant changes made to Utah cannabis law and how they affect patients. (Check out this related episode of Utah in the Weeds with Rich Oborn, Director of the UDOH Center for Medical Cannabis.)
When the Utah Medical Cannabis Act was written, it was stated that only fourteen Medical Cannabis pharmacy operating licenses would be awarded. All fourteen of those licenses were snatched up very quickly, but the rollout has been a slow burn. We still haven’t seen some of these pharmacies emerge over one year later. But, lucky for us — especially those of us in Southern Utah — every holder of one of the fourteen Medical Cannabis pharmacy licenses in the state will need to open by June 1, 2021. Our access to Medical Cannabis will almost double by summer!
But let’s get back to the session. First off, a bill passed through legislature that grants Utah one additional pharmacy license to issue, bringing the grand total to fifteen in the state. This pharmacy will be located in the rural area of either Daggett, Duchesne, Uintah, Sevier, Grand, San Juan, Emery, or Carbon County. UDOH doesn’t have a deadline yet to award this license, but keep an eye out for it sometime in 2021. We suspect to see this license awarded to one of the existing players in the Utah Medical Cannabis space.
When 2020 came to a close, it left many of our Utah Medical Cannabis patients to the south and other rural areas up a creek without a paddle, so to speak. They were no longer legally allowed to possess cannabis purchased out-of-state, and the closest Utah Medical Cannabis pharmacy was miles away. Under previous law, out-of-state Medical Cannabis was deemed legal possession by active Medical Cannabis cardholders through December 31, 2020. A possession bill passed extends that deadline to June 30, 2021. This gives patients legal access to their medicine while the remaining Utah Medical Cannabis pharmacies get up and running.
In addition to this deadline extension for out-of-state purchases, a bill passed prohibiting patients to remove or alter the labels on their Medical Cannabis purchases. At utahmarijuana.org affiliated clinics, we have always suggested this to our patients as an extra precaution, but now it’s mandatory. Just think of the countless stories out there of legal Utah patients being pulled over with Utah Medical Cannabis in their cars being cited with possession. So, the more proof you have of legal possession, the better, right? You can’t always count on other people to know the laws. Many people in Utah still don’t know Medical Cannabis is even an option to them. This one just makes sense: keep your labels, folks.
Already rolling out in some of the pharmacies, more in-depth verification is coming for us in Utah. Every single Medical Cannabis transaction must now be reviewed by a Pharmacy Medical Provider before it’s
dispensed. This could mean longer wait times and delayed pick-up or delivery orders while your friendly neighborhood pharmacist takes a peek at your dosage recommendations. There’s no doubt in my mind that this process rollout will be rocky at first, but think of it this way: you go to your local CVS or Wal-Mart with a prescription for 800mg Ibuprofen but ask for Percoset. If your pharmacist didn’t verify your actual prescription, you’d walk out with a controlled substance without a second look. That’s basically the thought process behind this law. It is a medical program, after all. We’ve got to treat this like medicine.
A bill also passed this session stating that by Fall 2021, each Utah Medical Cannabis cardholder and their purchase history will be incorporated into Utah’s Controlled Substance Database. Likely the most highly debated amendment to the Utah Medical Cannabis Act, the pros and cons are clear. For example, many patients worry about discrimination or denial of treatment from medical providers who do not agree with cannabis use. With this new visibility, patients don’t get to choose who they share this information with as they do now. (Utahmarijuana.org pro-tip: it’s always best to be completely transparent with everyone on your healthcare team!)
That being said, there are some upsides to this inclusion in the CSD. This will allow for more access to research on Medical Cannabis use and treatment, which will only further the program not only here, but in other states as well. It’ll also promote honesty and provide a more effective and comprehensive patient-provider relationship. When it comes down to it, cannabis is an intoxicating substance at moderate-to-high doses and should be treated with caution by patients and providers.
Buckle up for new EVS and card rules! I’m happy to announce that soon, our favorite necessary evil will get just a bit clearer. A bill passed to extend the timeframe of the first-issued Utah Medical Cannabis Card from ninety days to six months. That’ll save patients (and providers) the headache of navigating the EVS application again so soon. Keep in mind that at Utah Therapeutic Health Center, we love to hear from our patients. Don’t be a stranger! If you need something in your first six months — application help, directions, program clarifications, anything! — please reach out to us. Our Patient Experience team is always happy to help or put you in touch with your QMP. You’re not alone in this.
Next up. If you became a Utah Medical Cannabis patient in 2021, you’ve experienced the strange interim period of being able to use Medical Cannabis legally, but not being able to purchase it yet as you wait for your card to be sent to you. No longer! UDOH will soon roll out a Conditional Card available immediately to approved patients 21 years of age or older. For simplicity’s sake, think of Conditional Cards as fancy state-issued recommendation letters. Remember those? Providers can revoke this card at any time, and this will give patients access to the pharmacies while they wait for their Medical Card from the state. Look for Conditional Cards in the near future after necessary software modifications. We expect Conditional Cards to make an appearance on the scene in late 2021.
This session also introduced the LMP, or Limited Medical Provider. A Limited Medical Provider is defined as any MD, DO, podiatrist, APRN, or PA with a controlled substance license. (Oh yeah — a bill passed to add podiatrists to the list of approved providers that can be a QMP, too!) Contrary to a Qualified Medical Provider, an LMP doesn’t need to register with the Utah Department of Health. In fact, they won’t use EVS at all.
However, they’re only authorized to recommend Medical Cannabis to fifteen patients. So, technically speaking, if your provider is willing, you could be one of the lucky fifteen they keep in-house. LMPs will roll out later in the year after necessary software modifications.
Supportive of this amendment, Medical Cannabis education will appear in existing continuing education programs for providers with a controlled substance license. These providers already attend required courses every two years and these courses will soon include cannabis information. This will help support patients who choose to stay with their existing providers — cannabis experience or not — to receive well-rounded, comprehensive care.
In addition, physician assistant QMPs no longer require a supervising physician QMP (MD, DO, or podiatrist). Great news for PAs! Now you all can take a page from the Tim Pickett playbook with even more freedom and control over your practice. Score!
Finally, an EVS change. A bill passed giving QMPs the option to submit treatment and medication history about a patient to support their decision to restrict certain delivery methods or provide specific dosing guidelines into a patient record. This will be viewable by the PMP during the purchase verification process to ensure all recommendation guidelines have been met.
Phew! *wipes sweat from brow* Are you still with me? That was a lot to take in, wasn’t it? If we’ve learned anything about the Utah Medical Cannabis Program, it’s that nothing is set in stone. Things will change, then change again, then change back, and we’re all along for the ride. We here at utahmarijuana.org are here to keep you informed, safe, and legal. Keep an eye on our blog and FAQ page for the latest updates. For more about the program and these most recent updates, check out our founder’s podcast, Utah in the Weeds, where we interview Katie Barber, Medical Cannabis Program Specialist with UDOH, the man himself: Rich Oborn, Director of the UDOH Center for Medical Cannabis, and so many more. Comment below with your thoughts on these recent legislative changes — we’d love to hear what you think.
Episode 51 of Utah in the Weeds features a fascinating discussion with Derek Sherer, a medical cannabis patient with a history of opioid addiction. This particular episode is ideal for anyone concerned about cannabis being a gateway drug. From Sherer’s perspective, it is an exit drug. [18:52]
Derek Sherer first started using marijuana recreationally at age 17. [03:19] In the years since, he has made a point of educating himself about its medical benefits. He puts that same effort into educating his children as well. [06:51]
His transition to Medical Cannabis began as a result of an opioid addiction some 14 years ago. [09:59] After breaking his hand three times and needing surgery, Sherer’s doctors prescribed opioids. It was after the second accident that his opioid use ramped up and he got hooked.
During the discussion, Sherer spoke of how he bought opioids on the street to handle withdrawal symptoms when his doctor finally tried to get him off the prescriptions. [17:38] Over the next 9 to 10 years, Sherer was using a variety of prescription medications and street drugs. In 2016 he decided he’d had enough. He also concluded that self-medicating with cannabis would be his ticket out of opioids.
Shearer explained how using cannabis helped him overcome the physical symptoms of opioid withdrawal. He also believes cannabis saved his life. Had he continued using opioid pills and heroin, he believes he would have died from an overdose.
Today, he tells his story to anyone who wants to hear it. Tim and Chris are on board, being strong believers in Medical Cannabis as an exit drug. As a side note, the guys devoted part of the discussion to talking about prices and some of the other hiccups Utah’s program is currently experiencing. [28:43] It was a great discussion all the way around.
Chris Holifield: So, this is going to be Episode 51, Tim.
Tim Pickett: I can’t get over every time you say-
Chris Holifield: Every time you get on here, you get so excited. And you know what? I’m like a kid on Christmas to watch your face just smile, because I’m like, “Okay, this podcast is actually working.” It’s actually doing what it should be doing.
Tim Pickett: It’s all because we have, really, it’s all because we have you. You stick it out, you do it, you’re good at this.
Chris Holifield: It’s our community. Without our listeners though, we wouldn’t have a podcast. So, really, you can say all that you want, but I’m going to thank our listeners for listening to the podcast every week, and downloading the show, leaving reviews, sending messages, all of that. So, who’s on the show this week, Tim?
Tim Pickett: Derek Sherer, who is an exciting guest, but we’ve finally hooked up with him. And he has a fascinating story about addiction and cannabis. And I love stories like this, Chris, because they focus on cannabis being an exit drug, instead of a gateway drug. And that is the science is bearing that out. We have patients that are bearing that out. This is a good episode to listen to, for people who are seeking knowledge about the legitimacy of cannabis as something that can help people.
Chris Holifield: Absolutely, no, I was really excited to talk to Derek. And then, when I listen back to this episode, before publishing in here, I’m just like, “Wow, everybody’s got to listen to this.” This is a powerful episode.
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Chris Holifield: So, hopefully, listen to the entire thing. Listen to it again. Share it with a friend. Share it with somebody who you might know is struggling with the same thing.
Tim Pickett: Absolutely. And we’ll publish this on utahmarijuana.org/podcast, where we’ll have a transcript and a summary, Episode 51. If you look there, all of our episodes there, remember if you want an update on the legislative session, and what’s happening in the cannabis industry, Episode 50 with Rich Oborn was last week, which was a great episode.
Chris Holifield: So, good. Yeah.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. I’m excited to get into this with Derek. This is one that I think people should listen to, especially in Utah. This is a culture. It’s a culture breakdown.
Chris Holifield: Very cool. Yeah. Let’s get into this episode with Derek. Remember to subscribe to the podcast in whatever app you listen to this in. We have a brand-new episode, comes out every Friday, 4:20 AM. Let’s get into that conversation with Derek. Thanks so much for listening. Here we go.
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Derek Sherer: Congrats to you guys on the one-year anniversary. That’s awesome.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, man.
Tim Pickett: Thank you, thank you, thank you. It’s been-
Derek Sherer: Yeah, that’s huge.
Tim Pickett: It’s been an interesting year.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, it really truly has. Yeah. It’s been nice to listen to, especially through 2020. You know what I mean? I fell back on your guys’ podcast a lot just to escape and hear other people’s stories. So, I’m loving it.
Tim Pickett: That’s cool.
Derek Sherer: I’m honored to be here.
Tim Pickett: Thank you. Thank you. Well, I’m hoping to find out your cannabis story, and how you got… you’re currently a patient, a medical cannabis patient. But how did you get introduced to cannabis? Let’s go back to your beginning story, if you don’t mind sharing that. I’m always curious the first time.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. Mine came a little bit later than most people. I did. smoke a joint with a couple friends when I was 15 years old. Didn’t really spark any interest, no pun intended, but didn’t really spark any interest to me. And passed it along. 17 years old, revisited it and really, really fell in love. Just with everything that it was, it was just, I don’t know, love at first puff.
Derek Sherer: I guess you could say it, just I knew it was just something for me. I’ve never really been a big drinker. I have a family that’s got a lot of alcoholism in it. Like to have a beer here and there and everything. But it’s not something I see I could do every day, like a lot of other people do. So, yeah, this was just something that was for me. And yeah, 17, I know it’s a lot older than a lot of other people you hear, all the 13-year-old, the 14-year-old stories and stuff. But quite a late bloomer.
Derek Sherer: And yeah, just really, really liked it from the beginning. I knew it was something that was for me. And then, I really wanted to educate myself on it more. I knew a lot of other people were just treating it like a have fun party type vibe. I really wanted to know more about it, and this is back in 2002, 2003. And it’s just evolved so much, and I love learning more each and every day.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, you grew up in Utah too, right?
Derek Sherer: Yeah, yeah, born and raised here in Utah.
Tim Pickett: So, you said 17 is a late bloomer. Gosh, I was like 20 for the first time I-
Derek Sherer: Oh, really?
Tim Pickett: … I smoked weed. Is 17 late? Is that considered late for people to consume-
Derek Sherer: For the stories that I have, yeah. A lot of people that I talk to, they are really super young. I hear some people talking 10 years old, 11 years old. I’m just like, “Wow.” I’m thinking what I was doing around those ages. And it wasn’t even a thought. You know what I mean? It wasn’t a thought to me. But yeah, I get a lot of people saying that I was that late bloomer, and they’re like, “Wow, 17, it’s pretty old.”
Tim Pickett: It’s interesting that people have different… really, is it the world we live in now? Right, Chris? You, and I, and Derek, we live in this world where everybody around us uses cannabis. And it’s just part of our life. And so, for you, Derek, to say, “Well, 17 is late.” Well, in your world, I guess so. Right?
Derek Sherer: Right. Yeah.
Tim Pickett: But what’s “normal?”
Derek Sherer: That is a great question. It really truly is. I got kids myself, so I would look at like, what is a good age for anybody to partake in any kind of thing like this? And what is normal? You’re right. Because some other people see a younger version as normal, where others see, once your brain develops, obviously.
Tim Pickett: Right, right.
Derek Sherer: But yeah, what is normal I think changes day to day.
Tim Pickett: I’m going to be in that crowd, Derek.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, true, true.
Tim Pickett: When they’re 25, if my kids ever listen to this episode.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, mine too.
Tim Pickett: You can try cannabis when you’re 25 children.
Derek Sherer: Exactly. Exactly.
Tim Pickett: Okay, not before.
Derek Sherer: Yeah.
Tim Pickett: We let that frontal lobe develop.
Derek Sherer: My kids too, yeah, they’ll hear it.
Tim Pickett: But there are plenty of people who need an endocannabinoid stimulant-
Derek Sherer: Oh, 100%
Tim Pickett: … before that. So, there are places for it before you’re a fully functional adult.
Derek Sherer: Yeah. It does offer a lot. It offers so much. Like I mentioned, I educate myself so much, and dive so deep into stories. Obviously, like I said, I have kids. I’ve been an advocate for cannabis for so long. And then, I became a dad, and now I see myself as a dadvocate. I educate my kids.
Tim Pickett: That’s a cool word.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, yeah. I like to educate my kids too. I have a 10-year-old and a five-year-old. They both, they know what daddy, what he does, they know what my passion is. They’ve sat down and watched stories, Charlotte’s Web. The little girl Charlotte, this new one that we just seen that was called Waldo on Weed, really touching little story also. Six-month-old child that had a rare cancer in his eye. And parents picked up cannabis, CBD oil, and completely changed everything for this little boy.
Tim Pickett: Where’s that video at?
Derek Sherer: You’re right. It’s called Waldo on Weed. I’ve seen it on Amazon Prime. The name itself just kind of pulls you, you see roots curling across, you see Waldo On Weed. It’s like, “Oh, I got to check this out.” It’s a great story. I highly recommend it.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I’m going to watch that after we’re done here.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, It’s amazing.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. I think you’ve got, when we talk about kids and stuff, I don’t know if I can make a universal statement about this. But I’m trying to organize my thoughts here around it. Because you have cannabis, medical marijuana, you have alcohol, you have guns, you have sex, all of these four things that we talk about with kids. And it does seem like in every case, more education and more openness leads to better choices in general, right?
Derek Sherer: Absolutely.
Tim Pickett: You hide the booze from your kids, what do they do? They go try to find it. They drink. Hide the guns from your kids, you don’t educate them about them. They go use them in bad ways. Same thing with medical cannabis, sex. Right?
Derek Sherer: Yes.
Tim Pickett: You taught classic for that discussion. We can’t teach kids about sex education in school. We have to teach them about abstinence and what do we get? We get high pregnancy rates in teenage girls. Because we don’t know how to use protection. So, cannabis is the same discussion. Be open with your kids about cannabis in a good way. Give me a good idea, Derek. Maybe we should write a book, a kid’s book. What’s in Grandma’s Garden as a book?
Derek Sherer: Oh, man. I love it. Grandma’s Garden. I love that.
Chris Holifield: Wait, is that a real book?
Tim Pickett: It really is. That’s actually real book. You can go buy it on Amazon. What’s Growing in Grandma’s Garden?
Derek Sherer: You had me going there. I thought we had a deal working.
Tim Pickett: And it’s a weed book, how to teach your kids about cannabis and-
Chris Holifield: It’s awesome.
Tim Pickett: … in a legitimate way.
Chris Holifield: That’s awesome.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, I’m going to Amazon Prime that tonight, and maybe on the next book list.
Chris Holifield: When did cannabis come into your world, Derek? When did you realize you could use it on a medical level, more to help your body out instead of just recreationally?
Derek Sherer: This for me, I do fall victim to a lot of the… what a lot of people here in Utah fell victim to, a lot of the country in itself, the opioid epidemic. While back, a few years after high school, I’d say about 2006, 2007 was running with some wrong crowds, fighting, doing some damage to my hand, broke my hand three times, shattered it, required surgery on it.
Derek Sherer: They say it was too late, I’d done too much damage to it. Typical story, doctor was just pumping me full and full of so much medication that I didn’t need. I was going and filling my prescriptions at pharmacies and the pharmacist was asking me, if you don’t mind me asking what this is for, I’m telling this from my hand, and the pharmacist themselves are telling me this is way too much for you.
Derek Sherer: And younger kid right out of high school, I’m just like, I’m just taking what the doctor is prescribing me. Little did I know, it was creating massive damage to my body, to everything. I became so dependent on it, that’s when the doctor was just like, “Okay, this is the amount of time, we’re just going to take you off.” There was no weaning off process.
Derek Sherer: My body became, obviously, I went through withdrawals, and had no idea. I never really been addicted to pills. I’d never known what that feeling was. Used cannabis recreational before that, I was really never too familiar with any other drugs besides alcohol. And didn’t really know what that was doing at a young age. I was scared. So, I started looking for my medication elsewhere on the streets.
Derek Sherer: And at that point, I wasn’t even helping the pain. I was just helping the pain from the withdrawals by seeking medication through the streets and everything. So, that had turned into a quite lengthy addiction.
Chris Holifield: How long ago was this for you?
Derek Sherer: So, this was 2007 when I got on the pills, for the second time, I’d seen two different doctors from two different breaks and shatters on my hand. The second one is one it just cranked up. The first one, I was on like some Percocet, some low-end stuff. Second one, it was oxycodone 80s, and it just got out of hand. And from about 2007 until about four years ago, I’ve been off everything opiates, clean for four years, all thanks to cannabis.
Derek Sherer: It just went downhill. And I’ve seen things in that time, and went through things. It was just no person should go through. It was losing at least two to three friends every six to seven months, it felt like, all the overdoses, all overdoses. I became numb to it. I had not lost a family member until I was like 26. But in that 26 years, I had lost at least 15 friends during that time, in just a short period of time, all to overdoses.
Derek Sherer: My parents, my dad still talks about it to this day that my friends have set a record for just bodies is going down on all to opiates. And yeah, cannabis was something that I had obviously used before. It’s something that I use, obviously, just recreationally. Like I mentioned, I tried to educate myself on the benefits of it before, but never really knew the medical standpoint until I gave myself an option to look for other ways to get off this medication.
Derek Sherer: I did do the typical rehab. I went to rehab. That didn’t work. I was doing Suboxone, methadone, terrified of that. I know they have the programs and it works for some people. But that stuff is just as hard to come off of as opiates are. And I think any person that’s on that right now can tell me that’s the truth too. So, cannabis was something that I really took a shot at.
Derek Sherer: I had tried so many different things. The Suboxone, rehabs, and just told myself, I’m going to have this pain, like the doctor said, I’ll have this pain in my hand the rest of my life. That’s just plain and simple. And in the wintertime, it gets even worse. Utah can be winter in March or winter in April. So, it’s really hit and miss. But yeah, cannabis really stepped up for me, saved my life.
Derek Sherer: I truly believe it, and I owe it all to it. I educate a lot of other people that there’s other options out there. And this is just, I feel like the best alternative for anybody that’s looking to get off opiates.
Tim Pickett: How did you switch from opioids to cannabis? It sounds like you’ve been a cannabis user for a while, right?
Derek Sherer: Right.
Tim Pickett: And that’s always been part of the equation. But at some point, there was this idea that look, I’ve got to get serious about getting off the opioids. I’ve got to get serious about using something else, or what does that look like?
Derek Sherer: Glad you asked, and by all means, I’m not ashamed of anything. I’m not here to glorify anything. The glory from my story comes from me getting out of it. Plain and simple. I tell this story to a lot of people because they ask, just like you did, how did you do it? I was so deep. I’ve tried so many different things. And what was the wake-up call?
Derek Sherer: I had switched from oxycodone just like a lot of other people to opiates to heroin was using intravenously, IVs, shooting up everything. And just this one day, it was just the weirdest thing. I still don’t know what it was. I tell a lot of people this, they have their own thoughts on what it was. As I was ready to use again, I was just sitting there, and do you guys know the feeling like if you stand up too fast, you get tingling in your body?
Tim Pickett: Yeah.
Derek Sherer: Okay. So, I was sitting down, was completely fine, everything, not withdrawing or anything. And I could just feel that feeling going from my forehead all the way down my body just this tingle feeling. And it was like a snap of reality. And I just remember asking myself, is this it? Is this what you want to do the rest of your life? Is this for you? And I said, “Absolutely not.”
Derek Sherer: I broke my needle off, threw it in the garbage, picked up some cannabis, and told myself I am going to beat this. I’m going to get through this. I told my mental state that it needs to take a backseat because I know a lot of it is mental when you’re trying to get off opiates. A lot of it is obviously physical as well. But I truly believe if you can overcome the mental state, you can fight the hell out of it.
Derek Sherer: And I chose to, and through the withdrawals, through the pain that I was suffering, cannabis was the thing. I had my humor back. I was eating. I was sleeping. All of the things that a lot of these doctors can prescribe you. But there was no side effects from it. You know what I mean? There was really the side effects were hungry, happy, sleepy, all things that I could deal with.
Derek Sherer: All things that were just perfectly right up my alley. So, yeah, that was four years ago. 2016, November of 2016, November 27, and haven’t looked back since. And cannabis has been not only the thing for me, I’ve helped a lot of other friends that have been in need. I know a lot of people see me, and they’re like, “Wow, he did it.” And they have questions. And that’s the only answer I can give them. I don’t know what else it was. I don’t know if I would have made it without it. I truly, truly don’t.
Tim Pickett: Tell me why do people go to heroin from the pills? How does that happen?
Derek Sherer: That transition came honestly, I can almost remember the day, oxycodone really took off. I can’t remember around what year it was. But it really took off and was just creating damage everywhere. All over from every corner of the country. And I remember when they took it off the shelves, and the company just said we’re done with this. It was like Willy Wonka’s golden ticket.
Derek Sherer: Nobody could find them and everything. So, that was a huge transition for everybody is that that became unavailable. So, somebody else just said, “Hey, I have this other thing. Cheaper, and just as strong.” And so, once that settles in, it’s just off to the races with that.
Tim Pickett: I’ve heard the same thing. It’s actually just cheaper.
Derek Sherer: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Completely, completely.
Tim Pickett: It’s like, it’s easier to get in some ways, and it’s just plain cheaper. You can’t afford the pills, so you got to switch to heroin.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, yeah. And it’s dangerous. But even more now, though, with the fentanyl that’s came in. I’m just so glad I got out when I did. It’s a blessing.
Tim Pickett: It’s interesting too, how people can label marijuana as a gateway drug when you’re using it to get off of drugs. It’s like how does-
Derek Sherer: It’s an exit, yeah, it truly is.
Tim Pickett: Why can’t we get people thinking that way, I guess?
Derek Sherer: I’ve thought that for the longest time, and you know when you have one of those ideas, and then you’re just like, this is such a great idea, and then you go to look it up, or you don’t even go to look it up, and then you just see your idea. They have a facility. I’ve always thought that for these drug and rehab facilities that they’re giving people, they give people methadone, Suboxone to help them detox.
Derek Sherer: I’ve always thought: why has no one ever tried cannabis to give these patients? There’s a place in, I believe it’s California called THC, The Heavenly Center. A music producer, Scott Storch helped fund it, and everything, and they use specific cannabis to get people off. Matter of fact, I’ve just seen today, there’s a center here in Utah that I believe is doing that now.
Derek Sherer: That is introducing medical cannabis to people who are trying to get off opiates. So, it’s amazing to see that people are taking a shot at it because I truly haven’t seen it fail. I’m a person that’s speaking the truth from it, and anybody else who has taken my advice, they’re right here with me. And it’s a blessing to see. Every time that I can see how it can heal anybody, it warms my heart. It truly, truly does.
Tim Pickett: What’s the difference between the high associated with the opioids or heroin, and the feeling of cannabis? Because I’ve talked to some people who’ve come off of alcohol, and they’ll say, “Well, I still get that craving and it’s different.” It’s not the same relief as the alcohol is. How does that work with cannabis and opioids, or cannabis and heroin?
Derek Sherer: Yeah, it’s a good question. Honestly, for the longest time, and this is probably true for a lot of users, I was never really getting high in the end. I was just getting by, and I was just getting better. A lot of addicts would chase that high. I never wanted to chase it too much, because that’s how you overdose. You can overdose off of a small amount, but a lot of people would chase it so much, and push the limit.
Derek Sherer: It was just to get by for me. It was really not necessarily taking away any pain. It wasn’t giving too much euphoria. But I do remember smoking cannabis while I was in the midst of an addiction, while I was in the middle of it. And just to quote Bob Marley on it, when he says the cannabis helps reveal you to yourself. I remember smoking while I was just got done getting high off opiates, smoking some cannabis and thinking to myself, why am I doing this?
Derek Sherer: Why am I using these opiates? I would literally have conversations with myself. And think this is so stupid. And I was so close to like, those were the close times that I had to full on stopping and quitting. So, I knew that when I had that rollover and just said, “Hey, is this it for you?” I knew that hey, every single time before you smoked, you would always ask yourself, you really got back to you. And it was the truth.
Derek Sherer: So, there was really not much more of a difference. I would say credit definitely would go to cannabis. It would obviously get you high, but it wouldn’t… to me, it was just more of a spiritual type thing. It was more of this is real, this is safe. There’s more of that hug high, more than that, like you’re just out of that kind of high. I felt the embrace every single time. But sometimes the opioids were really too strong in the moment. But since then, yeah, like I said, it’s a blessing. It truly is.
Tim Pickett: Now that you know what this process looked like for you, think about all of the knowledge of cannabis. You started when you’re 17. You’re in your mid-30s now. You’ve come a long ways. You’ve learned so much about cannabis. Could you design a program better now to get somebody like you, could you go back to you and be like, “Hey, four years ago, you’d be like, hey, man, Derek, you know what? You’re using this strain. No, no, no, you need to be using this in the morning. You need to be using this at night. You need to be using this tincture here.” What’s that look like now that you know?
Derek Sherer: Now that I know, I just want to know more. I truly, truly do. I believe I’ve become such an advocate, and such a promoter for this that a lot of people around me to talk about different things, whether it’d be neuropathy, whether it’d be diabetes, whether it’d be pain, whether it’d be anxiety. I feel like I am starting to educate other people on what, hey, this is what you need. Hey, maybe you need CBD. You don’t need THC. Maybe you need some CBG. You know what I mean?
Derek Sherer: For inflammation. There’s a lot of different things. So, I’m more trying to create this program for myself to help others to really pass the message of cannabis on, not only just for myself, for the loved ones around me, but for my kids. I truly, like what we were talking about in the beginning, what is normal for a child to start taking something like this? I can see my kids taking CBD at a very young age, given if they need it.
Derek Sherer: There’s just a lot of options outside of Big Pharma that people need to take a look at, and they don’t need to see this as a last resort. It’s very tough for me to hear when people are suffering through certain things that they say we don’t have any other choice. So, we’re going to try this. This is our last resort. So, we’re going to try cannabis. It’s tough to hear. It’s also good that they’re giving it a shot, but this needs to be the frontline. It really needs to be the frontline.
Tim Pickett: Top three, instead of the bottom.
Derek Sherer: Hands down.
Tim Pickett: Right.
Chris Holifield: What’s your favorite way to consume cannabis? What’s your favorite way there?
Derek Sherer: I’ve always been into the art form of a lot of different things. I used to roll sushi and everything like that. Rolling joints was a thing of mine. That’s for me, and my friends in the past, we tried to roll the best, and everything. I really do enjoy the vaping now. To me, back then, it was when somebody had a vape it’s like no, what are you talking about? But there’s so many benefits from it, from the vaping. Edibles, I’ve really trained my body on them, more or less.
Derek Sherer: I’m understanding a lot about how they work with metabolism, with lots of different things that you eat. So, that’s interesting to start working on the doses on that. But just really all things. There’re so many different things that work on so many different levels. But yeah, for me, I love the taste of the flower. I’m a flower child at heart, really. I love where cannabis is going, extracts, tinctures, I love where it’s going, but more kind of the old school flower child.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, there’s something about it, Chris. There’s something about the flower.
Chris Holifield: Just that right stickiness and just that-
Derek Sherer: It is. It’s the beauty. The beauty of it. There’s so much.
Chris Holifield: Right. There’s that experience of grinding it, of rolling it, or of putting it in the vape if that’s the way you consume it. Certainly, there’s a lot of people who still smoke it in Utah, even though it’s really outlawed. But yeah, that’s the thing, would you want to grow it or no?
Derek Sherer: Yeah. It’s always been a dream of mine, it really has, and especially with what I’ve been talking about is offering this as another alternative. I would love to figure out the perfect, I know there’s great strains out there for people that are coming off of opiates, but just one that’s just going to be the end-all be-all that a lot of other people can say this is going to be the one. You’re coming off of opiates, not Suboxone, not methadone. It’s this particular strain.
Chris Holifield: Yeah, that is a high goal.
Derek Sherer: It really is.
Chris Holifield: That’s a really cool project, though.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, it really is.
Chris Holifield: The right ratio of cannabinoids, even down to that where you’re going, “Okay, maybe we don’t need a 30% THC strain, we need 12%, we need high CBD.”
Derek Sherer: High CBD. Yeah.
Chris Holifield: We need that anti-anxiety.
Derek Sherer: Somewhere around the lines of the ACDC strain. I know that that’s a one-to-one strain that’s rare out there with higher CBD.
Chris Holifield: I’ve never seen it.
Derek Sherer: Right. Yeah. And you don’t, and you don’t. A lot of people are just-
Chris Holifield: You don’t see it.
Derek Sherer: … high THC. They just want them 30 percenters, and there’s more benefits in CBD, CBG, CBN, so many different things that people need to take a look at.
Chris Holifield: I know, it’s always interesting in a lot of the online forums, people get so bent out of shape about the whole of low THC, the flower in Utah is just too low. And I’m just like, “I don’t know, it’s not all that bad.”
Tim Pickett: We had some we had some discussions today with Justice Grown and they’re talking about this program as a real medical… this is a really medical program and medical programs, they’re not the same as adult use programs. We are not going to have the same products that they have in Colorado. We’re just not.
Chris Holifield: They just need to bring that price down, though. That’s hard to keep it as a medical thing, because it’s like people can’t even afford it.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, I feel real bad for a lot of the indigent patients out there that some of these prices, man, I work and I have kids, and everything like that. My dispensary buys just are just enough. But yeah, it is high. I’m just thankful It’s here. I truly am. I remember watching when Prop 2 was getting passed, I literally was up refreshing my phone all through the night, all through the night. Like come on, come on, come on, come on. And bless that it’s here.
Derek Sherer: There’s a lot of kinks in the system and in the program right now, but I’m very hopeful that they’re going to get it worked out. I think it’s just going to get better. But yeah, prices, it would be great. IAND I was really looking forward to, if patients were able to grow because that is just a huge thing. I heard you guys’ Bob Waters episode. Shout out to Bob Waters, that thing, that was amazing. I would love to get in touch with him. So, if we can link that up like that was-
Tim Pickett: But he brings up a good point, right? It’s $24,000 for his medicine per year. And it’s not covered by insurance. And it’s like 20 bucks to grow his medicine.
Derek Sherer: Yeah. And I thought about that, that 24,000 and it just made me think like, “Wow, how much is mine?” That number just put out there like his is a lot, but some are probably a lot more. But still just a lot of money in itself.
Tim Pickett: And people are going to look at that, and they’re going to say, well, it’s like a bad habit. They’re going to compare it to smoking cigarettes. If you quit smoking cigarettes, you’ll save all this money. That’s different. It’s a medicine. It’s not the same thing, right?
Derek Sherer: It is, right.
Tim Pickett: We have people with chronic pain that require this substance. And we subsidize that with insurance for all other medications, but we have no way of subsidizing it for cannabis, right?
Derek Sherer: Yeah. It’s just amazing. If people were able to grow it, I think it would just… it’s so much more of a benefit. Just being around the plant, I’m sure you guys have felt that change, and just being around the plant, you just feel a difference and everything. But yeah, it’s medicine. And if a person can grow their own medicine, why not? You know what I mean? I wish diabetics could make their own insulin. That would be amazing. There’re just certain things, it’s like, why restrict those things? But again, I don’t know. It’s new.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. We’re not the people who make the rules. We’ve got to live by those rules.
Chris Holifield: Hopefully. Hopefully, one day here in Utah, they’ll at least allow the people that are way out in the boonies, allow them to at least grow.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. And I think it’s my understanding, there’s going to be another retail license that gets out there. And that’s supposed to be designed for the rural market, so that there’s more access in those parts of the state that really have had a hard time with access so far. Because if you look at where you’ve got to travel to, anywhere south of Provo, you got to go to Provo, you got to go to Deseret Wellness. There isn’t anybody south of there. There will be, but still, man, it’s a long time coming to get these guys open.
Chris Holifield: Yeah. The program has been up for a little over a year now. And so, it’s yeah, all those patients down there. You’re pretty much forcing them to cross state lines. And it’s a terrible thing. It’s a terrible thing. You think of all these people that have never broken a law in their lives, willing to risk their lives to go get their medicine across state lines, because they have no other way. That’s a terrifying thing to think of.
Tim Pickett: Sure. And this is legitimate. You talk about coming off of opioids. And I can talk about 70% of my patients are reducing their other medications, by using cannabis as an adjunct, as an addition to their medications. It’s a big deal. We want more of that data. We want to drill down on that, but that’s a huge number.
Derek Sherer: Completely.
Tim Pickett: Seven out of 10 people using less other medications, whether that’s alcohol, opioids, sleep Ambien, with less long term side effects, in most cases than the other harsh, harsh medication. But then again, the issue is price. You got to go buy it on your own. You can’t even use tax deductible funds, like your health savings account to go buy it.
Derek Sherer: Yeah. Little things like that that would really step up and make a big difference. Yeah, and people are going to have to start looking at this. I know probably, medications are a little bit cheaper. Yes, you can use your insurance, but 2020 itself, I can see a lot of mental illness coming out from a year alone, and people requiring cannabis. That was a tough year for everybody. Everybody should have got a qualifying condition card just that year alone, just to help us through it.
Tim Pickett: Right. Like if you survived 2020, you qualify.
Derek Sherer: Yes, yes.
Tim Pickett: That should have been in the legislature.
Derek Sherer: Completely, completely.
Tim Pickett: I love it. The 2020 qualifier.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, it should be, it should be a qualifier for everybody. Because yeah, it’s something that people really need to open their eyes on. It’s not the taboo dope that it used to be before, and I know that people used to throw that word around, and call cannabis dope. And that’s probably one of the biggest pet peeves of mine. It’s not. It’s so much more. And it’s on its way. I’m happy to see it, always happy to share my story with anybody.
Derek Sherer: And anybody who’s suffering, who hears this or anything like that, they can feel free to reach out to me because I’m always there to talk. But just like I tell everybody, I’m in it as much as you are. I’ll help you as much as you want to help yourself. Because it has to come from within. A lot of people are scared. But there’s better options for everybody. And this was the one for me that completely saved my life.
Tim Pickett: What about your family and friends? Are they pretty supportive of you using cannabis or do you keep it hush hush?
Derek Sherer: You know a great question. My mom and dad, bless their hearts for going through what I went through and everything. It’s something no parent should have to go through having a child as an addict. It’s terrible, but we made it through it. And they’re huge, huge supporters. My mom was really the… it’s drugs, she’s never taken drugs in her life, never smoked a cigarette, she has wine from time to time and everything, real, strait-laced upbringing, and everything.
Derek Sherer: So, something like what I was going through and cannabis, it was just all wrong and all bad. So, she got to see what I went through. And she got to see what cannabis did, and she complete, I can’t even say the word 180, it’s an understatement. She’s so supportive of it. It warms my heart just to hear how onboard she is with it. She tells people how much it saved my life.
Derek Sherer: She’s fully supportive. She doesn’t look at it differently now. Years ago, if she would have found out how I educate my kids on it, she would like, wow, they’re absolutely not so wrong. But yeah, my mom, she was the biggest change. My dad has always been supportive. He uses it himself, also for his depression, and everything. But for her, she didn’t understand it.
Derek Sherer: She never understood the benefits of it. My friends, yeah, they see what it did for me. So, they have no choice, but to see that it helped. They always have questions about it. Tim was talking about what strain did you use and everything. And at that time, I was getting it from friends. But that’s the great thing now is I know exactly what to use.
Derek Sherer: So, it can help a lot of other people by educating them. But I do have a couple family members that are, how do I really put it, not necessarily judgmental towards the fact, but they don’t understand it. They’re not educated themselves yet. And that’s all I can say about it is that they just don’t know enough to fully understand what it’s doing. They’ve always seen other things as other options.
Derek Sherer: So, they still don’t believe that this is the end-all be-all for me or anybody else. But yeah, for the most part, everybody is super, super supportive. They know how passionate I am about it. My kids constantly asking me different things. We watch shows, like I was mentioning before. So, yeah, full-on support from those around me.
Chris Holifield: I love it.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, that’s pretty cool. And I think that the family members, you talk about who aren’t supportive, you’re right. It’s this really, a lack of education, but it’s got to be a lack of willingness to admit, or to maybe not admit is the right word. But it’s this understanding that you don’t know. This this acknowledgement of something you don’t know about. And so, I’m going to go out and find out about this, right?
Derek Sherer: Yeah, yeah.
Tim Pickett: It’s thinking, and I guess that’s judgmental to say, yeah, if you don’t think cannabis can be medicine, then you think you know, but kind of you really don’t. You got to be willing to learn.
Derek Sherer: Yeah. These are the same people that are the wine versus weed kind of things. They partake quite a bit in the alcohol, and see that as, “Hey, it’s right, what I’m doing, it’s legal what I’m doing. Well, it’s also legal what I’m doing also.” But this is something that’s new that you guys have seen taboo for so long. I don’t like to get in debates too much.
Derek Sherer: But it’s something that I will always debate people on, I feel. I feel like I’ll always stick up for cannabis. And I can argue with everybody, but what good does it really do for somebody who doesn’t really want to learn themselves? Alcohol, you look up top 10 dangerous drugs in the world. Alcohol will be top three in every single list that you find. You will never see cannabis close to-
Chris Holifield: Yet alcohol is legal.
Derek Sherer: But it’s legal.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, but alcohol is legal. To turn this a little bit, do you feel like there’s some danger to excessive cannabis use? Do you feel like people can get into using too much, and really not be good for their health? Do you feel like you ever got into that spot?
Derek Sherer: Great question. I don’t feel that I’ve ever really got into it myself. I’m a firm believer and that it’s really not for everybody. But at the same time, I fight that it’s not for everybody, because I think for the person that tries something that experiences something bad, whether it’s high anxiety, paranoia, you just hear all these stories where it’s just a terrible experience, or they use in an excess, and something changes.
Derek Sherer: I think those people need to be educated on what they’re using, and maybe find out what we’re talking about, what works best for them. Maybe you’re taking a 30% when you don’t need a 30%. You need something lower. Maybe you don’t even need THC. Maybe you just need CBD. I understand people play with cannabis as it’s like alcohol, so people will partake in it just for fun. But at that point, also, it’s still good to educate yourself on what you’re using.
Tim Pickett: Yeah. You don’t — you don’t go to the bar and just say, “Hey, just light me up.”
Derek Sherer: Yeah, you don’t, you don’t.
Tim Pickett: “Give me three hits of that.”
Derek Sherer: Exactly. Great. Yeah, great.
Tim Pickett: You’re right. You order a drink because you know what’s in it, you know the taste.
Derek Sherer: You know, exactly.
Tim Pickett: Right. It’s the same. It’s got to be the same a cannabis from a recreational standpoint, right?
Derek Sherer: Absolutely, absolutely.
Tim Pickett: You got know what you’re doing. And I bring that question up, because I do think in my opinion, there is an access to cannabis use. I think people can use too much. I’ve definitely met some patients who, in my opinion, they use too much. If you’re using a gram a day, and you don’t have serious cancer pain, or something, man, lowering your tolerance could be beneficial to your health.
Tim Pickett: So, this balance, cannabis is a substance, the endocannabinoid system is a system that tries to find that balance. That’s really what we’re trying to do with medical cannabis is we’re trying to bring the body back to homeostasis, that evenness. And so, I think that in any case, and the Mormon Church is really into this with the word of wisdom, and that is finding this balance, no excess.
Tim Pickett: So, I don’t know, I’m getting a little on my soapbox here. But I think you can use too much. But on the other hand, educating yourself about what to use and how to use it. That’s okay. That’s a good thing for people.
Derek Sherer: Absolutely. Anything can be used in excessive points. It comes down to personal control at that point. But yeah, I 100% agree that people need to know exactly what they’re using, because that’s when I think it can get out of control and out of hand. It doesn’t even become medicine at that point. You’re just rolling the dice, and just figuring out, “Hey, let’s see where this goes, and let’s see where it takes you.” Just like you said, here, bartender, fill me up. Nobody does that.
Tim Pickett: Right. You don’t know what-
Chris Holifield: Surprise me. Surprise me.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, nobody does that.
Tim Pickett: That’s a bad idea. Yeah. That’s a bad idea for no matter what you do. So, now, you’ve come all this way, what’s next for Derek? because I know you’re really now working in the industry.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, I am.
Tim Pickett: Is that what’s next?
Derek Sherer: Yeah. It’s a blessing. I don’t even feel that I go to work every day now. I truly don’t, and I know that it’s a blessing all around. My kids see this excitement, my fiancé sees this new side. It’s just what’s next for me is just to keep on going, keep educating myself, and I would love to continue to help educate other people as to, like we talked about, cannabis is not the entrance drug.
Derek Sherer: It is the exit from a lot of things. And people need to look at it different. So, what’s next for me? The sky is the limit with this. I truly feel more at home being in this industry than I’ve ever felt in anything in my life. You can ask my dad. It’s been a struggle for him, I’ve had every job underneath the sun trying to find my way, trying to find my home, and this is it. So, I’m just going to continue to grow, no pun intended, or pun intended, because I may be growing one day.
Derek Sherer: But yeah, I know that this is something that is it’s beneficial for me in so many ways other than just being a medicine. I love being around it. I love educating people. I love what you guys do. This type of podcast is so needed to educate people from all stories that you guys have, business people to patients to whoever. Everybody needs to tell their story about how this has helped change, shifted, done anything in their lives because this is a life-changing situation.
Derek Sherer: And being in the industry itself is life changing for me. This is a career. This is not a job to brag about. I’m not just a pothead trying to make a point. I’m here to help heal, and educate, and show people that it works because I wouldn’t be here having this conversation with you great fellows if it wasn’t for cannabis. It’s a fact.
Chris Holifield: I’m grateful for cannabis. I’m glad to be sitting here with you chatting and finding your story, man.
Derek Sherer: Appreciate it.
Chris Holifield: Are you on Instagram? Can any of our listeners connect with you through Instagram, or anything, or do you have a website, or let’s share some of that information?
Derek Sherer: Yeah, I am on Instagram. It’s DJ_Deuce, D-E-U-C-E, 801 (@dj_deuce801). One of my other passions, DJ and stuff. So, yeah, I’m on Instagram. And like I mentioned, anybody who’s going through the struggles can definitely reach out. I’m always happy to lend an ear, to help out.
Chris Holifield: Yeah. I’m going to get you on our Facebook patients’ group if that’s okay.
Derek Sherer: Absolutely.
Chris Holifield: And then, utahmarijuana.org, we’ve got a Facebook group, a patients’ group that people can reach out to others, and in just get a sense of what this is like for somebody else, get a little bit of back and forth. I think a lot of people, they need that here. There’s a little bit of isolation here, especially. You don’t want to go talking to your neighbors in some cases.
Derek Sherer: Yeah. It’s hard. It’s hard to reach out. It was hard for me. I had to reach out to my inner self and have that conversation with me. But yeah, I’m always here for anybody who needs the help.
Chris Holifield: Yeah. Cool. So glad I brought you on the podcast or that we brought you on the podcast.
Derek Sherer: Yeah. The take two. The take two.
Chris Holifield: Yeah. I know it’s been a couple of times. Last week, we tried, but my internet was out. I apologize about that.
Derek Sherer: Yeah, it’s all good, it’s all good. I like the take twos. The number two is very synonymous in my life. So, it fits now. So, I’m happy.
Chris Holifield: Perfect. Very cool. Well, anything else you want to ask him, Tim, or anything else you want to bring up, Derek, before we wrap this episode up, or anything?
Derek Sherer: No, I think I’m good. Again, congrats to the one year. You guys are doing an amazing thing. I literally can’t get enough of this podcast, and listening, and shout out to everybody who’s been on here. I enjoyed all the stories all across and always looking forward for more.
Chris Holifield: Maybe eventually, one day, we can get everybody together, and we can all just have a big day and vape together, right?
Derek Sherer: Hey, that’d be awesome. Looking forward for that.
Chris Holifield: [crosstalk 00:47:09] but we can’t do that here in Utah.
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I’m thinking 4/20/2022.
Derek Sherer: Oh, I like it. I like it.
Chris Holifield: Oh, man, we better have a 420-party when-
Derek Sherer: Yes, we should.
Tim Pickett: Just a little while longer.
Chris Holifield: Very cool. And everybody can go listen to all the other episodes of the podcast at utahmarijuana.org/podcast. You can listen to them right on the website, or you can subscribe to the podcast in whatever podcast app you listen to all your other podcasts in, and leave a review if you haven’t left a review in Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Anything else you guys want to say, or let’s wrap this episode up, and go on with our lives, I guess?
Tim Pickett: Yeah, I guess so. Well, thanks everybody for listening.
Derek Sherer: Of course, shout out to everybody in the industry, everybody in my work, you know you who are. You guys have a great night. Keep on doing what you’re doing.
Tim Pickett: Stay safe out there, guys.
