The 104th episode of Utah in the Weeds features Tyler Hacking, a cannabis consultant with more than 20 years of experience in the industry.
Hacking is also an expert in mycology, the science of mushrooms and other fungi. He uses his expertise to enable cannabis and mushroom farmers to cultivate their crops successfully.
Tim Pickett:
Welcome everybody out to episode 104 of Utah in Weeds. My name is Tim Pickett, and I am your host here, a podcast about cannabis and cannabis culture with interviews and discussions with patients, scientists like Tyler Hacking, who we have on today to discuss mycology mushroom science, cannabis science, growth of the plant, and what’s just some really interesting things that we talked about in this conversation. So enjoying sharing these with you, and learning right along with you about the program here in Utah, and hopefully more about programs nationwide as we expand the podcast for further discussion this summer. I’d like to invite you to download the podcast and subscribe to the podcast. Thank you for doing so anywhere you have access to podcasts. Utah in the weeds. You can also find us on Discover Marijuana on YouTube and at Utahmarijuana.org, Utahmarijuana.org. You can come in for a medical cannabis card evaluation there, and you can get in tomorrow.
Tim Pickett:
If you are interested in events this summer, we have one that is really, really excited we’re involved with on Saturday the 25th, the Summer Solstice Revival Celebration. It’s a transformational wellness festival with a really unique and immersive art and nature experience. It’s Friday the 24th through June 26th, Sunday, next weekend. They sell tickets online. It is located up in the North Fork Park up in Eden, Utah. There’s a map online. Tickets are at Eventbrite, and you can go to Summerrevival.org and look up all about this celebration. You don’t have to go up there for the whole weekend. You can go up there for the day. I believe all ages are welcome. They sell tickets above 13 years old. There’s wristbands for people above 21. Just a place to share our culture, the cannabis and natural medicine culture, and enjoy some of the longest days of the year here in the Utah summer.
Tim Pickett:
Tyler Hacking everybody this episode, great discussion with about some true science and the journey of cannabis, and cannabis medicine, and mushroom medicine. We’ve had a lot about mushroom medicine lately, and it’s a growing and exciting topic. This is an exciting episode. Enjoy this discussion. Are you from Utah?
Tyler Hacking:
Yeah, I’m from Utah.
Tim Pickett:
What part of Utah?
Tyler Hacking:
So I was born at the Utah State University in Salt Lake and most of my life I grew up in Provo and Orem, but I moved around to a lot of the West Coast states. So I’ve done agriculture in California, Washington, Oregon, Colorado, and Utah, and that’s my corner of the world.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, it’s pretty cool. I mean, we met each other. Do you remember way back before the world ended? I think I met you at Max Bar, that club down. They were doing the CBD socials.
Tyler Hacking:
Yep. I remember with Mandi. I still talk to her all the time.
Tim Pickett:
That’s where I actually met you.
Tyler Hacking:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, with Mandi Kerr. I mean, that was kind of a fun time, because that was back in February, January of 2020. So we didn’t have COVID. We didn’t have a dispensary. We were just anticipating the dispensary opening, and the programs starting with cannabis. And things like that. How did COVID really affect you?
Tyler Hacking:
Well, I had to finish my science degree, my bachelor’s, during COVID, which made it extra challenging. There are some classes we had to take online, which were not designed for online education, and such as laboratory classes, for example, where you have to learn to handle hazardous chemicals. And so that was a really big challenge. I also moved my kids to homeschool and learned that I greatly preferred it to public school, which was also my personal experience when I was a kid. So I kind of liked it. I don’t know.
Tim Pickett:
Boy, so you had everybody at home.
Tyler Hacking:
Yep. Yeah. Was a loud house.
Tim Pickett:
Right. You’re finishing up a degree, a science degree, and then having to move your kids to that type of school. I remember that time. It was crazy. The kids at home with school, that was probably one of the most crazy things I think I’ve ever experienced, having kids home all the time, but not in the summer. That was just nuts. How old are your kids?
Tyler Hacking:
The challenge is getting… Eight and 12, and we had a hard time finding ways for them to socialize during social distancing, but my kids excelled with the online at home education. They’re doing a lot better than they ever did in public school.
Tim Pickett:
Cool. That’s great. That’s interesting. What drew you to cannabis?
Tyler Hacking:
Oh, at first it was just a job. I was a teenager about 20 years ago when a friend of mine asked me to join him in California for the summer, and I told my mom we were going to be working on an apple farm. That was not the case. I spent a couple of summers in the Redwoods learning from some of the best cultivators on earth, really amazing techniques that are highly effective for a variety of different ways to grow different cultivars of cannabis. And cannabis is a really good teaching plant. It can teach you all sorts of things about agriculture from cloning to nutrients, to pest management, indoor cultivation, outdoor cultivation, lighting, all sorts of advanced techniques that you might not encounter with other crops.
Tyler Hacking:
And so this got me on a journey in agriculture where I just got hooked, and I was in college at the time, and a couple years after I had gone to California, and I left college again to go work on more farms in Washington and Oregon, and then I moved to Colorado right as they legalized, and stayed there for the first few years of their legalization. And I came back to Utah, and we legalized, so it’s been kind of just one amazing adventure after the next, where cannabis has been this constant presence in my life, and it’s been amazing because there is a huge spectrum of cannabis from medical cannabis to hemp textiles, to food in the form of seeds, to oils, and things like that. And it’s just such a fun plant, and I’m really interested in where we’re taking the genetics right now. So I think that’s what’s got me hooked currently. And in that process, I’ve had to learn a lot about fungi.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, really? Okay. So talk about why genetics? Why is that kind of something that’s got your interest right now?
Tyler Hacking:
Well, initially when human beings first started using cannabis, we were only using it as a food crop and as a fiber source to make things like rope. It wasn’t until later after we began artificially selecting specific phenotypes and then reinforcing them through hybridization, and in breeding, and things like that we were able to get it to the point where we could use it medicinally, and concentrate the different phytocannabinoids and terpenes that were present in the plant. And that’s a really interesting developmental process. I think it says a lot about human ingenuity, and this plant has been with us throughout our development as a species. It’s use predates written history, and I think that’s super interesting. It’s considered to be a founding crop, one of the crops that’s responsible for human beings creating society and transitioning away from hunter gatherers status.
Tim Pickett:
This because it’s so good at creating fiber? The cannabis plant in general, we don’t talk about this a lot, and in fact, this goes back to Mandi, and her organization, and the Hemp Coalition, and all these things really. Medical cannabis is really only a small portion of the cannabis industry as it will be in the future, because it seems like the thing that cannabis is the best at, or was the best at before, is growing and creating fiber, the hemp [inaudible 00:10:02] essentially.
Tyler Hacking:
Yeah, and we’re just now essentially learning how to take advantage of that. In the past, it’s really been for the most part we used males because they have longer internodes for fiber. The females have more branching, and that’s not as good for fiber, and so we are just now learning about the different chemical structures of the different kinds of lignin that are found in the heart, and based on the structure of that lignin, you can do different things with it. Some of the amazing innovations I’ve seen at conferences and conventions over the last couple of years are things like hemp concrete, hemp rebar, hemp plywood, and that’s amazing.
Tyler Hacking:
I grew up doing construction and building houses with my dad, and the idea of fabricating those materials at a lower cost than is currently available and preventing at least some deforestation is really exciting. At the Utah Cann I met a gentleman who was working on a prototype to grow two by fours using hemp and inoculating it with fungal mycelium. This mycelium-
Tim Pickett:
Oh, yeah. He…
Tyler Hacking:
Yeah, did you see that?
Tim Pickett:
We got to get him on the podcast. I talked to him also.
Tyler Hacking:
Oh, cool.
Tim Pickett:
Fascinating product too.
Tyler Hacking:
Yeah. I can send you his info. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Right? That mycelium inside the hemp as the glue, essentially.
Tyler Hacking:
Yep.
Tim Pickett:
Is that what that was?
Tyler Hacking:
Well, I’ll tell you a little bit. So think of it like creating the infrastructure of a building. Okay? We have steel infrastructure for a lot of the big buildings where we go vertical, and then between that we use wood and other materials that connect together. This provides an overall greater structural strength for the building, and when we’re growing mycelium, essentially fungal hyphae, they grow in the most efficient path possible, and so they can create really tight woven connections between the strong microfiber bundles found in the hemp heart, which is super interesting.
Tim Pickett:
So they’re trying to grow in between the fibers of the plant and fill in the gaps?
Tyler Hacking:
Yep. Exactly.
Tim Pickett:
So interesting. I grew up doing construction too. And when we did a lot of concrete work, and we incorporated what was called fiber mesh in the concrete, which is a fiberglass, a teeny strand of fiberglass, and they started out it wasn’t a great technology in the beginning, because it was like fur on top of the concrete, but then they found out you could make it smaller, and smaller, and smaller. And I can see a really easy application of hemp fiber as that, as a replacement for that, essentially, the fiberglass fiber inside of concrete to increase its tensile strength and make-
Tyler Hacking:
Reduce how brittle it is.
Tim Pickett:
So it’s not going to… Yeah, exactly. So you can see how that would work in plywood too, where you would have the fibers, and then you’d need something to glue them together, and if you could use mycelium, I mean, you could really change the world. I mean, granted, that’s a pie in the sky idea, right?
Tyler Hacking:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Because there’s industry behind this, and you have to have the ability to scale it all, but coming back to what you were talking about before, Tyler, was the genetics of the plant. If you’re manipulating the genetics of the plant, you’re essentially saying that you could make that easier or make that more productive and produce more, but essentially specify the plant you’re growing for the application that it is going to move to after harvest. Am I getting that right?
Tyler Hacking:
Yeah. And there’s so many different applications. For example, we can use gene editing techniques like CRISPR and other techniques to arrange the DNA in a way where it expresses how we want it to in the order that we want it to. And so let’s say, for example, you were trying to clean up a toxic spill, and you wanted to use hemp as a bio accumulator, a bio remediation technique to clean out radiation or other contaminants in the soil. You could genetically engineer and genetically modify the cannabis plant to be more bio accumulative, to pull in more of the negative debris, and to be more tolerant to it, to grow in a way where it accumulates more biomass and less flower, for example. A lot of the farmer breeding techniques that we’ve been using have really increased the percentage of THC to the point where people are like, “Okay, maybe that’s enough.”
Tyler Hacking:
And people are starting to take a look at some of these other phytocannabinoids, the other terpenes and alkaloids, and the other compounds that are found in the plant, and the exciting part about this, about doing assays and biochemical analysis, and then comparing that to specific medical treatments is really exciting I think, because when you consume cannabis, you are not just consuming THC or CBD. You’re consuming 90 to 140 different potentially bioactive alkaloids. And depending on the concentration and abundance that you find them in, they change in their interactability. The entourage effect is a very real thing. You experience it every single day when you eat any kind of food, essentially.
Tyler Hacking:
The combination of different substances that you ingest from your food have different effects. For example, if you ate just sugar, you’d feel a very specific way. If you ate just carbs all day, you’d feel a different way, and if you ate just protein all day, you’d feel a different way, right? But if you mix them together, you feel pretty good, I think. And cannabis is that way too, and so we can come up with hyper specific medical treatments for very specific medical conditions using this kind of genetic editing. And I think that’s really exciting that we can make this medicine more precise through this kind of research.
Tim Pickett:
Are you familiar with where this type of research is happening? Because it seems to happen in Germany a little, in Israel some, in Canada some. I mean, I heard Penn State doing something, but there are few places that have even the capability of doing research like this do you think?
Tyler Hacking:
So it’s a platitude of research. There’s the agriculture sector that is working really hard to quantify the biosynthesis of these different plants, what their genetics can actually do. And then there’s the medical sector. I would say that the medical sector has a lot more red tape because getting institutional review board approval and clinical trial approval to work with human beings is very difficult, and painstaking, and sometimes just straight up illegal. And so we haven’t really been allowed to do this research until recently because of the Controlled Substance Act and all of that. And so it’s really nice living in a world where we’re starting to see legalization spread, because it’s creating the opportunity for universities around the world to perform this kind of research, which will give us the data that we need to prove that it’s helpful or hurtful.
Tyler Hacking:
And I think that that’s really important to talk about as well, because it’s not a cure all, and it does help some people, and there are also people who have experienced negative side effects from using cannabis, specifically medical clinical trials are showing that certain types of schizophrenia, bipolar, and mania, people who have experienced psychosis, that they can have negative reactions to the use of cannabis. And I’ve experienced that personally, where I had a friend who had a rare form of schizophrenia, and when she would use cannabis, she would pretty much just freak out and do scary, dangerous things, but the rest of us didn’t experience that same thing. And that’s because as human beings at a genetic level we are different, and we have different amounts of cannabinoid receptors in our bodies.
Tyler Hacking:
And sometimes they’re are different shapes, enough that the reaction that it has on us can be different from one individual to the next, and I think that that’s really important to take into account. Dosage and frequency of dosage, and the individual’s genetics are huge variables in how this medicine affects you, and things like tolerance, and even what we would call an overdose. I think there are some people who overuse cannabis, but most users, at least based on the research that I’ve conducted, I conducted some research on the impacts of cannabis on addiction and drug use, and it was really interesting because what I wanted to investigate was does cannabis lead to other drug use? Is it a gateway drug like people have said for so long?
Tyler Hacking:
And my data showed that in most cases it helped people to get away from what we would consider hardcore drugs, like methamphetamines, cocaine, heroin, and that it wasn’t something that led people towards drugs. In fact, the first drug that almost 70% of people used was alcohol. If anything, alcohol was the gateway drug all along.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. That’s interesting. Alcohol seems to be working in medicine too. I mean, anecdotally. I didn’t do any research on this, but certainly I would see not a lot of people come in with a weed problem, but certainly people come in to die in the hospital with alcohol problems, and alcohol is still something that society allows us to do in public. Right? I mean, there are places where you can go, and socialize, and drink, and certainly nobody would ever think about something like that for cannabis here in Utah, but I mean, it would make sense that in some ways it would be safer if we all went to a cannabis bar, and were using cannabis there instead of alcohol. It would be less harmful for the human body. I mean, I’m sure there’s an argument to be made.
Tim Pickett:
So what are you working on? So how does your knowledge, and your expertise, and your science degree, and all your background, how does that help you and help the people that you work with? Do you consult companies? Do you work for somebody?
Tyler Hacking:
I’ve been a cannabis agriculture consultant for the last decade, and it’s been a pretty fun adventure because my main goal is to essentially find the problems, and I approach it very scientifically. I use analytical sensors to collect data. I do soil testing. I do microbial testing. I bust out my microscope, and what I’m trying to do is to establish a low work, high productivity environment using the resources that my clients have. Many of my clients are hemp and medical cannabis cultivators within this state and other states, and also mushroom cultivators. And I like to really focus on problems. I like to remove them from the equation and just make the entire situation as efficient as possible.
Tyler Hacking:
And it’s been a blast because the feedback I get from clients is very positive very consistently. I end up talking about compost a lot more than cannabis, especially here in Utah and some of the drier states, because we do not have the habitat that cannabis evolved in, which was a subtropical climate in Southeast Asia, and instead our humidity, our relative atmospheric humidity is about half. The light is really good, but it’s too dry, and our soil is not acidic enough. It’s too alkaline. It’s also salty and full of sand and clay.
Tyler Hacking:
Cannabis really likes a substrate of organic matter or material that’s really easy for the roots to grow through. If it can’t, they’ll just grow sideways instead of downwards and not establish very well. And so a lot of the times I really try to clients about soil transformation, and that involves things like compost, using worms, so vermicomposting, and using the liquid that comes out, which is called leachate shape to make compost tea, which I brew, and then apply to their fields, and the transformation is drastic. I had a client in Blanding who after applying or compost tea mixture for just one season, they had 1400% increase in biomass production on their hemp crops, and it was just night and day.
Tim Pickett:
Wow.
Tyler Hacking:
It holds in more water. It saves money, because you don’t have to buy as much fertilizer. And it prevents soil erosion by enabling plants to spread the roots through the soil and hold onto it. And so it’s really funny. A lot of the times the first thing I do is just get onto the compost, because it tends to be the solution to many of the obstacles and challenges that these clients are having, especially here in Utah.
Tim Pickett:
So fascinating to talk to people who get into something, and not that you’re assuming it’s going to be a certain way, not that you’re planning on it being a certain way, but you really get into this field where you’re an expert in one thing, and you end up… You know the low hanging fruit is compost, for example, right? You find that out through experience, and then you end up having the same conversation, not necessarily using your expertise that you’ve trained for, but that got you in the door, right? And then you solve their problem using something that was unanticipated.
Tyler Hacking:
Yes.
Tim Pickett:
I find that so much in cannabis medicine where somebody comes in, and they have these problems and things like that, and I’ll talk about sleep, and I’ll be like, “Well, how do you sleep?” “Well, not that great.” “Well, if we can get you sleeping better, then we can solve kind of all of these other problems probably, or at least make a big dent in it.” And so we end up talking about something that’s not really related to cannabis, but it’s simple and straightforward. It makes a big difference, and I think it’s always fascinating how that works. Experts in a lot of fields, I think, will find that, that it’s accounting. Maybe an accountant would say, “Well, I’m this expert in forensic accounting, but really the bottom line is I just teach people how to journal.” Right? Or something like that. If they’re keeping records, then it doesn’t really matter. I don’t need my skills.
Tyler Hacking:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
This crosses over into mushrooms too and fungi.
Tyler Hacking:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
And is this because it’s the same people, right? The people who are interested in cannabis are interested in mushrooms too, or is it because you’re in agriculture, and these things kind of fit together? How do they fit together for you?
Tyler Hacking:
There’s definitely overlap between the cultures of the mushroom community, the fungi community, and the agriculture community of plants. So I actually went and moderated a panel at the Utah Cann later that day. I went and spoke for a panel at the Fungi Festival, the first Utah Fungi Festival which we had recently, and I was one of the organizers for the festival and also presented at it, and took people on a mushroom hunt, for me in my career when I started learning about plants, what I learned is that essentially there’s an equation, and plants are just a part of that equation. The other variables are environmental chemistry, microbiology, and in other cases there are other variables, but for cannabis it’s mostly about the chemistry of the environment, and then also the microbes, because plants do not have an immune system. They can only protect themselves chemically and physically, and so they’re very dependent on symbiotic relationships that they have with bacteria and fungi to protect them from other bacteria and fungi, which are pathogens, kind of like powdery mildew, for example.
Tyler Hacking:
One of the biggest reasons people call me as a consultant for help is that they have a powdery mildew infestation on their farm. It’s one of the most common ways that a healthy farm will go down, and that material has to be destroyed because it’s contaminated with powdery mildew, which is a fungi, by the way. And it’s really good at just eating the plant, and it takes advantage of plants that are stressed out, and that don’t have enough energy to chemically protect themselves, and it just eats them using enzymes. And so I’ve seen this powdery mildew cause people to lose hundreds of thousands of dollars of crops, and it’s a very serious thing. Prevention is definitely the key.
Tyler Hacking:
Treatment is possible, but what I learned is that if you maintain a healthy microbiome, just like with your body, for the plant in the soil, that a lot of the times the beneficial symbiotic microbes will protect the plant, not only from pathogens, but from environmental stresses as well, and so the more I learned about plants, the more I learned that I had to learn about plant microbiology, and a really big part of that is fungi. Fungi also helped plants in their root systems to acquire more water and nutrients, and they can make some of those nutrients available to the plant where they might not be available based on the structure. For example, plants can’t use N2, atmospheric nitrogen. They can’t use ammonia either, and ammonium, but they can use nitrates and nitrites, and all four of those are forms of nitrogen, but only two of them can be used by plants, and they require bacteria and fungi to transform the other versions of nitrogen into bioavailable nitrogen, and so really we’re growing a system.
Tyler Hacking:
We’re growing ecology, and it’s very rare that we’re really growing just one organism. That happens almost exclusively in hyper sanitary hydroponics, for example, and it’s never, ever found in nature, not ever. And honestly, mushrooms are really fun organisms to study. The one that comes to everybody’s mind is psilocybin a lot of the times, but the world of mycology is so much more diverse than that. Next month, I’m flying to Florida to present at Mycological Society of America conference to present some of the research I’ve conducted on morel mushrooms. Have you ever had one?
Tim Pickett:
No. What are they?
Tyler Hacking:
Okay, so you buy them at-
Tim Pickett:
I want to now.
Tyler Hacking:
Yeah, you really should. They don’t have the same flavor or texture as the other mushrooms you’ve tried in your life. And in fact, to me, they taste quite beefy like steak, and they have a chewier texture like steak. They’re the second most expensive fungi on earth, right behind truffles, and this is because they’re highly seasonal. They’re very, very difficult to cultivate. Just recently in the New York Times there is an article about the first successful instance of scaled up morel cultivation. And this is likely what I’ll focus my PhD on, which I am applying for right now at a few different universities, and it’s interesting because it’s challenging. It’s not very well understood.
Tyler Hacking:
It was only in the very recent past that we even realized that fungi are not plants, which was only really discovered because of genetic analysis. They were actually classified under plants for a really long time scientifically, and imagine them like animals, but instead of bringing things into their body, they digest on the outside of their body, and they grow outwardly instead of inwardly. So they’re actually more closely related to the animal kingdom than either are to any other kingdom. So we’re very close relatives with fungi, and they play all of the roles.
Tyler Hacking:
They play the predator, and they play the symbio. And so they can have a protective role in your crop, or they can have a devastating pathogenic role in your crop, and I think understanding both is critical to having successful harvests, especially in places like Utah, where we’re not perfectly acclimated for cannabis agriculture.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, your research certainly has gone across psilocybin.
Tyler Hacking:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
If you’re into mushrooms at all, it seems like at some point you’re going to run into the psychedelics.
Tyler Hacking:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
Are you familiar with the new appropriations bill that was passed this year to study that type of program here in Utah?
Tyler Hacking:
A little bit. Yeah, I know that it’s been on Capitol hill, and a lot of the ketamine clinics are wanting to use it as a medical application as well, because there’s some people who react better with psilocybin than they do with ketamine.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I wonder. Those types of grow programs, what does a mushroom grow program look like? I mean, does it look like a basement with no lights and just like a wet, damp, dark room?
Tyler Hacking:
So yes and no. Okay, so we actually use light, because fungi have photoreceptors and that helps them to grow upward. They grow towards light. Okay? And so typically people are growing in totes, like storage totes, and it’s hyper sanitary. So we spray isopropyl alcohol on everything. It’s usually under a flow hood that we build one of these totes, and then after sterilizing the media, which is different types of grain, and wood, or straw, for example, using intense heat and pressure to kill everything, we allow it to cool, and then inoculate it with fungal mycelium. And once you inoculate it, and the substrate is sanitary, the fungi doesn’t have to compete. It won’t get contaminated, and you pretty much just let it grow.
Tyler Hacking:
Inside of that tote, yes, you do want it humid, because they grow a lot better when it’s humid. The mushroom season here in Utah is typically spring and fall during the more humid times of the year when things aren’t frozen or dried to a crisp during the summer. And so a lot of the mushroom cultivation facilities are layered in a way where you can retain the humidity and cycle it back through the system using a dehumidifier that controls the amount of humidity in that system, which is critical to maintain throughout the mushroom cultivation process.
Tim Pickett:
It seems like it would take a lot less room, a lot less space to cultivate a psilocybin farm than it would take to cultivate a cannabis farm, but I’m interested as the legalities go forward how that’s going to look in the nation really. I’m as interested in it nationally as I am here in Utah. I think Utah won’t necessarily. There’s a little bit of momentum behind it now, but I don’t think that will last. Personally, I think they’ll wait till somebody else develops a program to copy, being that we’re-
Tyler Hacking:
Yeah, and then modify the crap out of at the last minute.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, at the last minute. Right? But it is. From a medical standpoint, I think this just goes to show that society as a whole is interested in non-pharmaceutical medications and non-pharmaceutical medicine like plant-based medicine, getting serious about it.
Tyler Hacking:
Right. And there is a lot of validity to that. For example, if we’re comparing things in pharmacology, typically we’re working with an isolate, something that is one chemical that is mixed into a mixture of inert chemicals. So for example, when you take Tylenol, that’s what you’re taking. You’re taking one molecule mixed with things that do nothing to you, and the difference between that natural medicine, a great example is cannabis. You’re consuming hundreds of biochemicals simultaneously. Never in nature do you find just one chemical. That’s not a thing, and so we didn’t evolve to interact with isolates and concentrated chemicals.
Tyler Hacking:
It’s just it’s not as natural as an actual plant. That being said, there are naturally occurring toxins as well, and so we had to be careful with the natural medicines as well. To touch on the cultivation part of things, you can grow a lot more mushrooms with the same space than you can with cannabis, because you only need a foot or two based on the mushroom that you’re growing, and then you can stack things vertically on shelves. So it’s really easy to do vertical integration into mushroom cultivation systems compared to cannabis where it’s really hard to do multiple levels.
Tim Pickett:
What’s next for you? You’re applying for your PhD program. When you apply for a PhD program in this type of research, are there a lot of facilities that offer those types of programs?
Tyler Hacking:
No, they’re very hyper specific.
Tim Pickett:
Is it hard to study mushrooms and cannabis?
Tyler Hacking:
It is really, really difficult. I would say that it’s easier to study cannabis than it is to study mushrooms. Mycologists are rare in the scientific community, even amongst biologists they’re very rare. I’ve been lucky enough to know a few and have them as my research mentors, and I’m hoping to meet quite a few more at this conference next month that I can discuss potential PhD programs with. And that being said, I want to do mycoagriculture. I want to grow mushrooms for my PhD, and I’ve kind of had my fill with plants for now, and I’m really interested in fungi. I like studying how they interact more than anything, and so what I’m looking for right now is a mentor who will allow me to research morchella, morels. And the reason that that’s super interesting to me is because we actually don’t understand their full sexual life cycle.
Tyler Hacking:
Part of it is a complete mystery. We don’t really know how… It’s called the sclerotium. We don’t understand how the sclerotium is really impacting the sexual development of the ascocarp carp, which we call the mushroom. And that’s why only one business has ever been successful in cultivating them, and that’s very recent. I really like to study entheogen psychoactive substances, and how they affect human beings, and how they affect things like addiction, and I think one of the most exciting things about psilocybin and cannabis is that they both have a powerful ability to mitigate the effects of addiction. I’ve experienced that personally, and I’ve seen that effect in many other people throughout my life, and if you listen to the testimonies of people who have tried these substances, that’s one of the very common things that they say, especially when they were doing other hard drugs at the time. They kind of lost the desire to do so, which I find really interesting. Yeah. Do you want to talk a little bit about the history?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Yeah, let’s do it.
Tyler Hacking:
Yeah? Okay. All right. So there are at least eight psychoactive alkaloids in psilocybin mushrooms. Most of the psilocybin mushrooms that people eat on earth are called psilocybe cubensis. However, in the psilocybe genus there are 50 to 100 different species based on how you categorize them. Okay? And each of them have their own unique microchemical combination of alkaloids and terpenes just like cannabis and other plants do. The other really interesting thing… Uh-huh?
Tim Pickett:
So there are 50 versions of psilocybin or more that we could use that are of mushrooms? So you would say cultivars, or would it be similar to saying this is a different cultivar of the plant or of the same species?
Tyler Hacking:
It’s close. So for example, psilocybe cubensis is a species. There’s also psilocybe mexicana, which is another species, and so psilocybe is the genus that they fall under. Cannabis, all varieties of cannabis are the same species, cannabis sativa linnaeus, even indica and ruderalis are taxonomically subsumed under cannabis sativa linneaus. So all cannabis plants can interbreed because they are the same species, and when it comes to psilocybe, not all of them can interbreed, because they’re not the same species, but, yes, it is synonymous in that we have 50 to 100 varieties of the same genus of fungi that have similar and overlapping but different chemical combinations in their properties.
Tim Pickett:
Okay. So keep going with this explanation, because I know you’re getting to more interesting things about the genus, these different species.
Tyler Hacking:
Yeah, this is the history part is really interesting. So we have evidence that psilocybin mushrooms have been used by human beings for as long as 6,000 years in our human history. Okay? But it wasn’t known to the rest of the world until 67 years ago when it was shared by a shamanist, who lived in Mexico in a state called Oaxaca, and her name was Maria Sabina, and in 1955, she introduced psilocybin mushrooms to an American anthropologist. His name was Gordon Wasson, and three years later, it was cultivated in Europe, and its primary psychoactive ingredient, psilocybin, was isolated and extracted in a laboratory by the famous chemist, Albert Hoffman, who also conducted the research and development of LSD. LSD is directly relative to fungi because it’s produced from a lysergic amino acid that comes from a type of fungi we call ergot, and ergot grows as a pathogen on rye, and so the development of pharmaceutical grade psilocybin and LSD actually happened within a 20 year period of each other from the same scientist.
Tim Pickett:
Wow.
Tyler Hacking:
And in addition… I know that’s super Interesting, huh?
Tim Pickett:
It is.
Tyler Hacking:
But it’s brand new to the world, yeah. That’s less than 70 years.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I mean, 67 years ago you just all of a sudden. So did it just go dark? It was like the dark age for psilocybin for all those years in between, or were people using it indigenous cultures?
Tyler Hacking:
Yeah. So it was used that whole time in Mexico, but mostly as a ritualistic shamanic experience that was focused on spirituality and connecting people with nature, or causing them to look inside themselves to get over emotional turmoil. So it was actually used to treat PTSD before most history was written by tribes and tribal people in Mexico. There were five different tribes that used it. So it wasn’t just from Maria Sabina’s tribe. There was an entire region, but it wasn’t studied in Western medicine until very recently, and a lot of that had to do with the technology needing to develop to where we could do chemical and genetic analysis. And so once that happened, there were scientists who were very excited to work with it as a source of pharmaceutical substance, and that led to lots of other research.
Tyler Hacking:
So one big thing is that most of the psychoactivity is actually not from psilocybin. Psilocybin breaks down in your system when you orally ingest it into psilocin. And so psilocin is the primary psychoactive ingredient in psilocybin mushrooms. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
When did it become illegal? Because if we are doing this research, then it has some sense of legality or at least if Hoffman’s doing research and developing these things, when was it added to the list of things we can’t use?
Tyler Hacking:
So in it depends on the country that we’re talking about. In the United States, it became a schedule one drug, which was also pressured by the UN, but that happened during the Controlled Substance Act in 1970.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Okay. So they basically rounded up everything that was fun for anybody, and they thought was causing trouble.
Tyler Hacking:
Yeah. Yeah. Their argument was that there was not a medical benefit, and at the time there wasn’t research to show that there was a medical benefit. That research takes a long time and was stinted by the Controlled Substance Act, making it illegal for scientists to even conduct that research.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Yep. Same type of argument there for cannabis, right? If there’s no medical benefit and the anti-government hippies are using it, we need to take it away.
Tyler Hacking:
Yeah. There’s a huge theological debate that it has a lot to do with different religious theologies. There are many religions who are against the use of psychoactive substances, and when discussing this topic in as non-biased a way as possible, the conclusion that many people come to is that when you change the way that somebody thinks, it might cause them to think in a way where they think against that religion.
Tim Pickett:
Right.
Tyler Hacking:
And so it’s been deemed for a very long time. I won’t name any religions, but it’s been deemed for a long time that it’s evil and bad, however, the use of these substances for medicinal reason predate each of those religions.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. There’s some very promising research on PTSD and addiction with psilocybin, these heavy doses of psilocybin. Super cool research that when I talked to Steve Urquhart, the founder of the Divine Assembly here in Utah, the Mushroom Church, he and I had a good conversation about that too, and I do think I would agree with you that there is a fear amongst groups of people with specific beliefs and ideologies that a psychoactive substance or experience would make somebody, “make them,” I’m holding my air quotes here, make them think differently about their original beliefs, and that would be bad, right? And that perception, and of course to the scientific community the opposite is probably true, where that perception change represents further understanding, not necessarily disbelief, I guess.
Tyler Hacking:
No, let’s talk about that, because this is a really important topic. Let’s talk about cognitive liberty and cognitive awareness. Okay? If you have never experienced a substance, then you couldn’t possibly have had the experience to have an opinion about it. Right?
Tim Pickett:
Right.
Tyler Hacking:
I think that to people who haven’t tried entheogens, that it is unimaginable. You can have an experience that lacks words to describe how you feel from that experience, and many of these substances cause you to look inward. They cause you introspection, and introspection is the key to growth and the goal of most therapeutic applications, to look within one’s self and heal on the inside. These substances tend to catalyze that experience and accelerate the process quite a bit by enabling us to drop our baggage, for example, and to have the ability to break out of the patterns of thought that we can get stuck in as human beings.
Tim Pickett:
It’s really well said. Okay, tangent just for a second. Do people with allergies to mushrooms or intolerances to mushrooms, can they take some of these substances still? Can you distill it down to where it doesn’t have that allergy? I know a couple of people who are super intolerant to fungi in general, right? If they eat mushrooms on a pizza, they end up just throwing up. It’s not a true allergy, so to speak. It’s more of an intolerance. Can that be affected by the way they’re processed?
Tyler Hacking:
Definitely. So the cell membrane of fungi, it’s similar to insects. It is composed of a molecule called chitin, and there are some humans who are very sensitive to chitin to where it’s toxic to them, and they can have a negative reaction. So through processing, you can extract and concentrate different alkaloids out of the biomass and separate it from the chitin. This removes the allergic reaction, if you do separate out the chitin. There are also other mycotoxic compounds that are present. For example, the button mushroom, the cremini, the Portobello mushroom from your grocery store, it contains a toxin called agaritine, and if you don’t properly cook your mushrooms, then you can experience agaritine toxicity. The same is true for any fungi.
Tyler Hacking:
All fungi have mycotoxic compounds, and I would recommend cooking with them for sure. A lot of people when they eat psilocybe, they are doing so raw, which means that it did not break down any of the mycotoxins. It didn’t break down the chitin, and so it enhances that toxicity effect. So one thing that people can do is just make a tea, for example. That’s a simple technique. It won’t remove all of the potentially irritating molecules that could cause a reaction, but it will remove most of them. There are also definitely concentrates and isolates, isolates and extracts of the alkaloids from mushrooms to separate it and concentrate it. Sometimes it’s more effective in a concentrate form based on its application.
Tim Pickett:
Hmm. Okay. I learned a lot just then, because it’s just been something that’s been interesting to me about fungi, and how you could be allergic to it when it’s essentially ubiquitous in some ways.
Tyler Hacking:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
This has been a fascinating conversation, and what have we missed?
Tyler Hacking:
I think the big takeaway from this topic is that as human beings, we are all different. We have different DNA, and that is the reason that we have varying experiences. The same thing might affect you and I differently at the same exact dosage, and I think it’s important to learn for yourself if it’s actually going to help you, and to identify when it’s not. That’s probably the healthiest way that one can go about exploring the world of entheogens.
Tim Pickett:
Well said, Tyler Hacking.
Tyler Hacking:
Thank You.
Tim Pickett:
We’re going to have to check in on you as you continue your journey towards your PhD and learning more and more. We’ll come back to you as the subject matter expert for sure.
Tyler Hacking:
Thank you, Tim. It’s been a pleasure.
Tim Pickett:
If somebody has questions for you, do you have a place where people should go to ask those questions, or to get in to connect with you?
Tyler Hacking:
Yeah. I have a strong presence on Facebook and Instagram, where I advertise my business, Green Dreams Come True. You can also find it under just Green Dreams. And I have pages and groups, and I love sharing scientific information with people to help them to learn about these topics. It’s my favorite thing to do. So I love those questions, even if you’re just starting out with mushroom cultivation in your basement or hemp cultivation, anything like that, hit me up. It is my favorite thing to talk about, and I love seeing how it helps people, seeing how it changes their lives for the better. That’s why I do this. That’s why I’ve continued to do this, and it’s exciting. These businesses, Tim, especially in the cannabis industry, they have a 90% fail rate for startups, and I think a lot of that is preventable by the sharing of effective techniques.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Yeah. I think people get caught up in trying to do it themselves and be better than everybody else, and then they end up in trouble, and the better companies tend to be more willing to share and understand that it is kind of a collective, right? Everybody needs a haircut. My mom did hair for years, and my uncle was a barber, and he’s like, “Yeah, a barber can open up down the street, and that’s probably okay, because everybody needs a haircut.” Right? There’s enough business to go around. Let’s be a good community first and help people first.
Tyler Hacking:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Well I’m glad you came on. This has been awesome. I really appreciate your time and expertise, and for those of you who are not subscribed to this podcast, Utah in the Weeds, we’re talking about things that I think are pretty interesting, and who knows? You might learn a thing or two. So thanks, everybody. Stay safe out there.
Tyler Hacking:
Thank you, Tim.
Episode 103 of Utah in the Weeds features Connor Boyack, who is one of the leading proponents of Medical Cannabis in Utah. Boyack is the president of Libertas Institute, an influential think tank working “to change hearts, minds, and laws to build a freer society by creating and implementing innovative policy reforms and exceptional educational resources.” For years, Libertas Institute has been heavily involved in shaping Utah’s Medical Cannabis policies.
Tim Pickett:
Welcome everybody out to episode 103 of Utah in the Weeds. My name is Tim Pickett, and I’m the host. This podcast is about cannabis and Utah cannabis culture. Today’s guest is none other than Connor Boyack, the president of the Libertas Institute. Here in Utah, Connor was one of the key proponents of the legalization of cannabis. Even back to the CBD push there’s talk of… We discuss how he was involved in the initial patient’s story and getting all the media involved. And then we hone in on the discussion between the big players, and the church here in Utah, and the advocates, and some of the advocate groups. And Connor gives his side of the story of what actually happened in that compromise.
Tim Pickett:
We talk a lot about the program and how the program has evolved. Really great conversation. I think this is one of the most important interviews and conversations that I’ve had in this podcast. And just excited to share it with you. From some housekeeping standpoints, the summer is underway here in Utah, and the program is still growing. You can find us at utahmarijuana.org, or right here on Utah in the Weeds podcast. Download it on any podcast player that you have access to and stay up to date with patients’ stories and key players and industry leaders right here in Utah and soon to expand outside. Enjoy this conversation with Connor Boyack. Connor Boyack, you’re the president of Libertas Institute, right? So this is, you considered a think tank?
Connor Boyack:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
So describe that. What is Libertas?
Connor Boyack:
So we’re a nonprofit and a think tank is base… Well, the joke is that we’re a mental institution, a think tank and at base. But what it really means is we are a nonprofit focused on building a public case for legal reform. So we work with elected officials and provide them information. We partner with the public. We go out and educate the public, and we are trying to think up ways to make our world a better place from our perspective. And then figure out what are the plans that need to be put into place so that we can make that a reality. Whose minds do we need to change? Who do we need to partner with? What resources do we need? How do we get all this pulled together in a way that will allow us to accomplish our goal?
Connor Boyack:
And then we build the campaigns and go execute and get it all done. So we basically sit around all day trying to figure out how to change the world. And it’s an amazing job to be able to do, because really, it’s all about serving other people and trying to solve their problems because they often can’t solve it for themselves. And so we have the resources, the knowledge, the network, where we can help a lot of these people who can’t help themselves. And we can solve a lot of problems for a lot of people.
Tim Pickett:
So when it comes to cannabis in Utah, Libertas was involved from the beginning, even before the bill passed or the-
Connor Boyack:
Initiative.
Tim Pickett:
… the referendum-
Connor Boyack:
Oh, yeah.
Tim Pickett:
The initiative?
Connor Boyack:
No. It started… Gosh. 2013, I was in my office watching a documentary that CNN put together by Sanjay Gupta called Weed. He’s now since done, I think Weed 2 and Weed 3 or whatever, but this is when Weed came out. And he was profiling the story of Charlotte Figi, who has since passed. She was the girl that had Dravet syndrome, a form of intractable epilepsy. And they were talking about how these parents were… They had tried everything. They were sent home with Charlotte to go let her pass in peace and at home. And they’re like, “Screw this. We’ve tried everything else. Let’s go to Colorado. People have been talking to us about this CBD stuff. Let’s go see what it’s about.” So they were…
Connor Boyack:
The big focus was on CBD and epilepsy. So I’m watching this and I’m like, “Holy cow, this is amazing. Is there anyone in Utah that falls into that camp that we can talk to?” So we started sniffing around and we met with the Utah Epilepsy Association and all these people. And I’m asking for an interview and trying to… So we finally land with this mom, Jennifer and her son, Stockton like Charlotte had Dravet syndrome. So we did this interview and it was all about her desire for medical cannabis, for at the time was really just CBD focus, but medical cannabis more broadly. And so here’s this Mormon mom, who’s talking about how pharmaceuticals have failed her child and that she wants the ability to try.
Connor Boyack:
There was zero conversation about this in Utah at the time in 2013. And so we put this interview out there and literally… This is not an embellishment. I had every media outlet calling me within the hour. They all wanted Jennifer’s contact information to do this interview. It was a sexy topic in Mormon, Utah, right? Here’s this Mormon mom trying to fight for marijuana. Every reporter was salivating. And so we sent them all to Jennifer. She did a ton of media over the next day. And that is what launched the conversation in Utah. We did some polling. Polling was in the tank. We were in the 40% for support for medical cannabis I think at the time. No one was talking about it in Utah or anything.
Connor Boyack:
And so we spent a year, year and a half focused on CBD, and the Epilepsy Association ran point on getting the CBD law passed. And right after that, we started working on the Medical Cannabis Bill, senator Madsen working for two years at the Capital, trying to get it passed. Failed there, went and started The Ballot Initiative, raised a million bucks, got 120 plus thousand signatures. Went into the negotiations that everyone knows something about and now we have a lot. So that’s the very crude beginning to end. But that’s the early, early story that very few people know about, is how early it started and was it was me watching Weed and calling around and looking for someone to interview. That is precisely what launched the effort here in Utah.
Tim Pickett:
When the ballot initiative got up close to being passed, you were involved in that negotiation. If you were in the room, you got a say in what happened. What happened? Because it looked like from my perspective, this was going to pass. Through the summer I was… At first, I thought, “No way, it’s not going to pass.” I’m working in trauma and GI surgery down here in West valley and there’s no way it’s going to pass.
Tim Pickett:
And then over the course of the summer, it looked like, “Wow, this actually might go.” But then right towards the end, I think it was in August, when the church finally seemed like they decided to come forward and say, “Nope, we oppose it.” And everybody got scared. And then I lost… Then it seemed for me anyway, the drapes were closed and something happened behind the scenes.
Connor Boyack:
So you’re wondering what happened behind the scenes.
Tim Pickett:
I want to know what happened behind the scenes.
Connor Boyack:
Well, we heard of that-
Tim Pickett:
I’ve heard a couple of versions.
Connor Boyack:
Okay. Well I have-
Tim Pickett:
Because-
Connor Boyack:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
But I want to know the truth.
Connor Boyack:
Yeah. There’s versions out there and then there’s what actually happened. So let me pause to give context. It is wrong to believe that Prop 2 was going to pass. It initially was. The polling was quite strong. We were at one point in the low eighties in terms of people supporting Prop 2. But then as you pointed out, the LDS church and their partners, Drug Safe Utah, which was Walter Plumb, and the Utah Medical Association and the Chamber of Commerce and the Utah Medical Association and the PTA and the blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
I think the police too.
Connor Boyack:
Yeah. Law enforcement.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Law enforcement.
Connor Boyack:
Everyone got up on stage together, but it was really the LDS church. They were the ones out there emailing people who joined their coalition and trying to grow this thing. So the church starts coming out. They send an email out to every member of the church in their database in Utah. First time they had ever done that on a political issue saying, “Don’t vote for Prop 2. We think it’s bad,” blah, blah, blah. So they’re using all their resources attacking it. They were very effective. They allowed the predominantly conservative Mormon community in Utah to believe two arguments at the same time. That you can be for medical cannabis and opposed Prop 2. That was the divergent point where support for medical cannabis remained in the high seventies to even low eighties at some point.
Connor Boyack:
But the numbers for Prop 2 started tanking. And we were doing a lot of internal polling trying… Internal polling means polling that we didn’t release to the public. We’re just quietly doing polling. We’re trying to figure out how effective is this? How problematic is this? And the numbers were going down. I stand before you today very confident in saying that, had we just gone balls to the wall on the ballot, let the public decide, we would’ve lost. And that had we lost then what would’ve been the so-called public will that everyone right now likes, “Oh, they violated the public.” No, no, no. Actual public will would’ve been that we don’t want medical cannabis and we would have zero program today because there would be no incentive for the legislature to act.
Connor Boyack:
And so we negotiated specifically because we had access to this data and had strong reasons to believe that our resources were diminishing. We had spent most all of our money. We weren’t raising as much anymore because people just thought that things were good. Look at the polling numbers, they’re great. This is sailing to the finish line. Meanwhile, here comes the LDS church with its significant resources and Walter Plumb, with his massive resources and others. And we’re like, “Okay, crap. If they continue to attack this thing, this doesn’t end well for us.” And so we decided to negotiate to, for lack of a better word, save Prop 2.
Connor Boyack:
Granted we paired it down to about 85% of what it was, but also what a lot of people don’t understand is that we put things in Prop 2 that we knew were a negotiating items. We knew that they would not survive either in negotiating process like this or subsequent legislative sessions. For example, home grow. I have people to this day that send me little snarky, Facebook messages, “Oh, you removed home grow.” I’m like, “You’re an idiot.” We sat around my table when we were concocting this thing. And we knew why, eyes wide open, that home grow was not politically palpable in Utah, but we put it in there so that we could have a bargaining chip to bargain away at some point. To preserve the rest of the program, to let our opponents feel like they had a win. Right?
Connor Boyack:
“Oh, yay. We defeated home grow.” Fine. We knew we just never, would’ve got that passed anyways. So we had things in there impromptu that we knew would not survive and that was intentional on our part. But then also we did par it down in a few other ways in the negotiating process, protected 85% of what we initially mapped out. And then in the years, since we’ve taken it up to 95% and in the process turned our entire opposition into support. Now none of those institutions are attacking what we’re doing. So in retrospect, despite all the naysayers who understandably don’t know all the nuance and the strategy and everything, I get it. So they attack from a point of, I’ll say political ignorance or whatever.
Connor Boyack:
So there are people out there who have hard feelings about that, but from our vantage point that the folks who started this effort and did all the strategy for it, this went according to plan. It happened great. We’re very pleased with how it turned out. Does that mean there aren’t problems still? Absolutely not. There are still issues that I’m fired up about, want to fix and change or whatever but we are here where we are only because of what we did.
Connor Boyack:
And for all those people who think that we shouldn’t have negotiated, we shouldn’t have talked to the LDS church, blah, blah, blah, we would have no program today. And that was not a reality I was willing to accept. So I was more willing to take the arrows and the attacks from everyone and the complaints and the bitching and moaning than I was to live in a world with no program. And then have those people still complain at me. So in retrospect, I think we did exactly what we should have and I’m happy we did.
Tim Pickett:
I think it’s a good perspective. And it reiterates the importance of knowing that you know what, you’ve got to deal with the things in front of you. And with legislation, the more I learn about it, the more I realize, look, you’ve got to get… Something done is in a lot of ways better than waiting and getting nothing done. And it is a stepwise approach, especially in a conservative state like Utah and medical cannabis.
Tim Pickett:
There are certainly more people, more patients that will talk to me and say, “I’m surprised medical cannabis is legal at all. I thought we were going to be the last state.” So I think there’s more people on the positive side than on the negative side. But if you can’t… And let’s talk about it. Some of the problems you see that in the legislation, you were involved in the negotiation and then passing the Utah Medical Cannabis Act. Right? And then each year, well, you were really involved in the modifications the first couple of years, but maybe not so much in 2022.
Connor Boyack:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
Blister packs were… That was a huge thing that… I think everybody knew that one’s going to have to change.
Connor Boyack:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
But did you have things that you immediately needed to get changed, that you recall?
Connor Boyack:
Well, and during the negotiation, our intent was to save as much as we could. So if that meant stupid blister packs to say flower when everyone wanted to. The starting point for the negotiation was no flower.
Tim Pickett:
No flower?
Connor Boyack:
And no one wanted it. Everyone hated it. No one loved the open ended nature of it. How close it is to recreational, so-called. So our MO was to do whatever we could to save as much as we can. With the intent, with the knowledge that when implementation happened, we would see… This is really important, right? By getting them to sign on to the Utah Medical Cannabis Act, all of our opposition, we got them to say yes to medical cannabis. And because of that, we could hold their feet to the fire in the subsequent legislative sessions. In conversations that were not around, shall we legalize medical cannabis, yes or no? It was about, how do we make this work? Hey guys, we already agreed that we’re going to make this program work. But now we’re seeing-
Tim Pickett:
We already agreed to flower.
Connor Boyack:
Right. And we said yes to flower, but now we’re seeing that, Hey, blister packs have some of these problems. And it was me sitting in a room with some of these people. I’m like, “Okay, so how about we just move to the glass jars? I think that’s going to make more sense because we gave it a go. We’re seeing these kinks. I think this is probably the right way to go. What do you guys think?” “Yeah. Okay. I suppose we should.” Camel’s nose in the tent for lack of a better term, right. It’s just like get them accustomed to saying yes to flower and okay with the law and so on and so forth and then deal with these things later on. So yeah. Everyone’s howling, “Oh, how stupid can you be? Blister packs don’t work.” I’m like, “Guys, I know they don’t work. Just let this play out.”
Tim Pickett:
Just let this play out. Yeah. We’re still two years… You were still two years really away from the first pharmacy opening at that point.
Connor Boyack:
Right? Yeah. We didn’t need to fix it on day one.
Tim Pickett:
There’s plenty of time.
Connor Boyack:
Yes.
Tim Pickett:
Right.
Connor Boyack:
And I think the big thing that remains for me is, I remember sitting in one of the negotiations. At this point we had broadened it to a bunch of the other stakeholders, including the governor’s office. And it was the spokes guy. What was his role? He was chief of staff or something, but it was the guy from the governor’s office. And he said, “We’re talking about which conditions? Yes here, no here.” Utah medical association wants to come in with a hatchet and just get rid of half of the conditions. So we’re having to figure out creative ways to save pain. What a lot of people don’t know is our pain condition is better than it even was in Prop 2.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, it is.
Connor Boyack:
And so for all of the nay saying, in some respects, things are even better and broader. But at the time when we were negotiating over all these things, we were talking about the conditions. And the guy from the governor’s office, he’s like, “Why do we need a condition list at all?” And I’m applauding this guy.
Tim Pickett:
Wow, thank you. Yeah.
Connor Boyack:
And he is like, “Why don’t we just let doctors be doctors and they can figure out what the uses are for?” And you have the Utah Medical Association in the room and a couple others and they would not go anywhere near that. But I think that’s where we need to get to. In my mind, that is the next major upgrade for the system is to get out of the political picking and choosing and just allow doctors to make the determinations that in their best judgment they know about. I think that’s an area where I want to get. The nit pickiness over forms or whatever. Like, “Okay, can we have butter or not?” I’m less interested in that.
Connor Boyack:
Again, to your point, I wasn’t really that involved in this legislative session by my own choice, except when there’s issues that I can do with behind the scenes and have some conversations with people. But for my vantage point, I’ve birthed this child and I’ve adopted away to the industry and Desiree and Utah-
Tim Pickett:
And the doctors [inaudible 00:18:16]-
Connor Boyack:
… Patients Coalition. I’m like, “You guys can squabble about all the little stop or whatever.” If there’s something big or significant where I need to step in, I will. But a lot of the stuff is not so significant where I felt the need to step in lately. I’m on the board of Utah Patients Coalition. So I work with Desiree there just to guide it from a patient perspective.
Connor Boyack:
But no. The cost is a big one, but again, I think that’s a volume play. That the more we can continue to scale and grow the program, I think that will help with that too. I don’t know. There’s room to grow. There’s things to fix but overall, I feel like we got a functional program. And while some people might complain about this or that, we are three X over where the regulators said we were going to be compared to a data…
Connor Boyack:
They did a statistic. Okay, we get the bill passed. We go to implementation and the Department of Agriculture and Food Commissions, a statistician and a researcher over at the U, to say, “Hey, look at all the surrounding states that have medical programs and what their year, one year two was. Base it off a population, do all the corrections and the whatever so this is legit. And then tell us what you think we’re going to have in terms of a patient population year one, year, two year three, so that we can figure out how to regulate that cost wise,” blah, blah, blah. They come out with that number. I think it was in year… Gosh, I just blogged about this few weeks ago.
Tim Pickett:
I Think in year one, it was-
Connor Boyack:
11,000 for-
Tim Pickett:
It was 11,000 patients for year one.
Connor Boyack:
Yeah. With three X.
Tim Pickett:
Then they did licensing and growing and all of those sorts of things were about that amount. And we definitely in the first year doubled that. And now you’re at three X where they’re-
Connor Boyack:
Yeah. So for everyone complaining, like the-
Tim Pickett:
Projections.
Connor Boyack:
… the market is clearly saying that there’s strong interest in this. There’s a high renewal rate. It’s helping a lot of people. I don’t disagree that there’s issues to be worked out, but from my vantage point, we got it to a point where I accomplished what I was trying to do. And now I can let other people fight their battles and focus on what they want to focus on. And I’m only going to get involved as I think I’m needed because I accomplish what I set out to do, which is to get it this far.
Tim Pickett:
Do you think things like home grow, things like unlimited patient caps, things like unlimited or let doctors be doctors and decide who can use it, are a long ways off in a state like Utah? Many, many years we need federal legislation change in order to get to something like that. Or do you think incrementally, you can get to those steps-
Connor Boyack:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
… alone in Utah?
Connor Boyack:
I doubt we ever get to home grow in Utah. I don’t see that happening. Patient caps, I’m 50, 50. We’ve raised them and then we’ve expanded the number of people and any nurse under you or whatever. I feel like we’ve resolved that issue. We’ve expanded it so doctors now don’t even need to be a… Whatever we called it.
Tim Pickett:
Oh yeah. QMP.
Connor Boyack:
Qualified Medical Provider.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. The limited medical provider.
Connor Boyack:
Yeah. So we-
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. That’s an interesting program in my perspective.
Connor Boyack:
Sure.
Tim Pickett:
There’s been… It’s a good idea. Is a good idea. There’s been about 70 people issued medical cards under that program so far in its lifespan. Which is not a long-
Connor Boyack:
Well, its life span is short. It was supposed to launch a year ago and then they never got around to it.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. It’s only four months.
Connor Boyack:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
It’s only four months. But still-
Connor Boyack:
But again, the-
Tim Pickett:
Fair enough.
Connor Boyack:
The thinking is like, how can we expand the universe of physicians who are going to feel comfortable writing these things, talking to their patients about it, not feeling like they have to go through all these regulatory hoops just to write a single patient a recommendation? And so we’ve tried to solve for a lot of these things. I don’t remember whether the third one. You asked home grow and raising the cap or the condition list. I think we can get there.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Condition list.
Connor Boyack:
I think we can get there. I think that is on the table. Again, if we’ve got a generous pain condition and we’ve got the board that basically approves 95% or more of the requests that go before the compassionate use board. What are the incentives to change the condition list if basically anyone who needs medical cannabis fits somehow? And so, I don’t know what we really gain by taking on that fight if there’s not a real problem to solve. So I think we could get there. I just don’t know that it’s a battle worth fighting compared to potentially other things.
Tim Pickett:
I tend to agree. The thing that I like about an expanded condition list is the data you’re gathering from the state is more accurate. Currently you have 80% of patients that are qualifying under pain, and yet they’re using it for sleep or something else. So you’re not quite getting good medical data. You’re not reinforcing the legitimacy of cannabis as a medicine from a medical provider standpoint. That I think it causes us trouble down the road that we don’t see. It’s not a problem now, but if you want to expand research and viability of the data, maybe you should reconsider your condition list. But you’re right. If it’s not a problem in… If it’s not a barrier to access medical cannabis, then in some ways why fight that battle?
Connor Boyack:
Yeah. Well, cause any scab that you pick at, right? You’re inviting infection. If we try and take this on, then other people are going to come complain and try and push in the other direction and ask for their things. So it’s like, if it ain’t broke that bad, then maybe just let it lie.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Do you have… I’m assuming that you have people that you know, who’ve really… And over the course of, from 2013, all the way to now, has your view of medical cannabis changed? Or did your view… This is more of a question on your political views.
Connor Boyack:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Is cannabis a view? Is cannabis something for you because of your political viewpoint? Or is it important for you because you like cannabis as a medicine?
Connor Boyack:
I was very clear with everyone, elected officials and otherwise during all of Prop 2 that I had never used cannabis in my entire life. I have since, but at the time I never had. And I liked that for Utah, for me to be able to say this isn’t… It’s not about using weed or whatever. This is just me trying to do what I think is the right thing for these people who need it. No, for me was absolutely born out of my political views. I don’t think people should be locked in cages because they ingest something you don’t like. I think the drug war is hilariously idiotic. It’s counterproductive. It’s a net negative on our society. And the government response to drugs are oftentimes far worse than the drugs themselves. I remember seeing a meme a couple years ago about…
Connor Boyack:
Wow, there’s several of them I have saved. But the one guy that… This is cop busting down a door, he’s like, “Are there plants in here? Are there illegally growing plants?” And he’s followed by… This SWAT team and they’re coming in with guns a blazing. It’s like, “What are we doing?” That makes no sense to me. So for me it is political. It’s why we’re focused on psychedelics right now for mental health. That’s the next frontier of what we’re working on. And so it is absolutely a political thing. It was very interesting as a libertarian, which is what I consider myself, that this was a coalition of all kinds of people who we were only United based off of our common interest in legalizing this thing. Which is rare. I remember DJ, who headed up the Utah Patients Coalition.
Connor Boyack:
He was my vice president at Libertas and then we moved over to Utah Patients Coalition for all the signature gathering effort. So I was kind of strategy and he was execution. And I remember he said to me once, he’s like, “You know how stupid it is to build coalitions around a medicine?” Is like, “Imagine trying to build a coalition of people who’ve used aspirin.” How stupid would that be to say like, “We have that in common. Let’s unite.” That doesn’t make any sense at all.
Connor Boyack:
And so of course, then a coalition built around a medicine is going to have its internal challenges and its conflicts and people who disagree. And so it was very interesting for me, working with all kinds of people from different political perspectives and otherwise. And for my part it was all fine and great, but I know not everyone felt that way on their end of things. But it is what it is. So we got it done. We got some bruises along the way and here we are.
Tim Pickett:
Did you build relationships with people on the opposite side of the aisle that you’ve fostered and continued?
Connor Boyack:
Totally.
Tim Pickett:
Because when you mentioned psilocybin, it seems like there’s going to be some of that same type of, “Hey, we’re going to have to work with all kinds of different political viewpoints here to get this done.”
Connor Boyack:
Yeah. The reality is, like with cannabis, you don’t actually have to work with the Democrats and the liberals because it’s presumed that they all support it and they’re a super minority in Utah, so that’s not actually who you need. So it’s like, “We got your vote anyways. Everyone know you supports this and if you guys are the face of this, then maybe it doesn’t go anywhere. So let’s have a different driver for”-
Tim Pickett:
And they understand that too, right. Escamia would be like, “Yeah, I understand that. Let’s let somebody else be the face of it.”
Connor Boyack:
I think the politicians understand that more than the activists. The activists don’t really get the political savvy or that issue. We all have ego in these things, right? Myself included, but they want to be involved. They want to be active. They want to be part of the movement. I’m like, “Dude, you get like tats up the Wazoo, and drags and everything. Maybe we need to have you play a role in the back end and not the front end.” And so it’s hard for people who want to be part of an exciting movement to understand those types of cultural things and recognize that there’s different roles for different people. And we’re all on the same team, team aspirin, team cannabis, team… Whatever your medicine is, but it is.
Connor Boyack:
But to your question, since I’m rambling, yes. No. I try and be as friendly with as many people as I can. Not everyone agrees with the decisions that we made on the negotiation. I get it. I think a lot of them just don’t understand how things went. That’s fine. I don’t expect them to have intimate knowledge of something that was a little bit more tightly held. Some of them don’t want to be friends with me, that’s fine, but anyone who wants to talk and partner up and whatever, we have a very pro coalition standpoint and certainly will be doing that on psychedelics as well.
Connor Boyack:
And I frankly think that’s a good thing. Especially as I look out at our world and there’s so much toxic disagreement and tribalism and everything else. I just don’t want to live my life that way. I don’t think it’s healthy for our society or for me as a person. And so I try and be friendly with everyone who wants to partner up.
Tim Pickett:
How is the psilocybin, the psychedelic fight going? My understanding is they got a bill passed to do some studying. Got a little appropriation for, or money to spend on… Basically do a report. My understanding of it is they want to build a report of what the program might look like in Utah if there was one. And that’s as far as we’ve got.
Connor Boyack:
Yeah, we worked on this with representative Brammer. And you’re right. It is a task force. It brings together a whole bunch of different smart people to talk over the summer and fall. So that’s being set up right now. And yeah, their goal is look at the research from Johns Hopkins and other places that are looking into this. Help us understand what it says, what should we do, is there a path to move forward in Utah? Who can this help? And so they will produce a report in mid October and that is designed to inform the legislature about what that might look like to open that up in Utah. It’s a very different issue. With cannabis, tons of states had forged this path already.
Connor Boyack:
It was part of the national conversation. That’s not the case with psychedelics at all. The only places to do any type of de-crime stuff are… Like Oregon that decriminalized all drugs basically or Denver is very blue, deep blue places. No red state has taken this on in any significant step forward. There’s been… I think maybe Texas did its own little task force that they’re looking at. So there’s been a little bit of sniffing around, but no one’s figured out, okay, what does a red state do when it comes to this stuff?
Connor Boyack:
So our hope is that, “Hey, we created this whole regulated but open model for cannabis.” Is there some learning there that we could take and take this other controlled substance and still open a path for people who… because the reality is, it’s just like cannabis. If anything, this has been weird for me. This might just be the circles that I run in. But I think I know more people who use psychedelics than cannabis, which was really interesting to me, the more I started talking to people about this, I think it’s because I network with a lot of CEOs and entrepreneurs who are always looking for that edge up or whatever. And so maybe they don’t want to-
Tim Pickett:
The brain. The brain healing.
Connor Boyack:
Yes.
Tim Pickett:
The brain on fire-
Connor Boyack:
Yes.
Tim Pickett:
… type thing. Yes it is. And the research around psychedelics is very specific and seems to be leapfrogging cannabis in some ways.
Connor Boyack:
Yeah. I agree with that.
Tim Pickett:
Cannabis has this… Like it’s a problem because it’s illegal. It’s not legitimate because it’s been illegal for so long, but it’s been grown in the mountains and we’ve just… The drug war, for example. And psilocybin doesn’t have that. Doesn’t have the stigma. It’s, you didn’t use it in high school.
Connor Boyack:
I think of it like Africa, they have no telephone lines everywhere and all this broadband infrastructure. They basically skipped and all the regulatory problems that come in with right of ways and polls with lines. No, they skipped that and they went to cell phones. But they avoided all those political battles and infrastructure costs and ugly everything from all the wires everywhere.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. And the land and the easements.
Connor Boyack:
Right. They skipped it.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Connor Boyack:
So I see psilocybin, psychedelics in some ways skipping all the baggage and the propaganda and the hysteria that we’ve had with cannabis because it is unfamiliar. Right? We didn’t use it in high school. It wasn’t really the drug of choice. And so maybe not having all that baggage, we’ll be able to have a little bit easier time moving down that path. Maybe, I don’t know. This is fresh field where we’re starting to cut into and we’re going to have to figure out how to forge the path. Certainly there’s all the people out there who just love mushrooms and that culture and everything else.
Connor Boyack:
But again, okay, if we’re trying to get Utah to do this, we’ve got to present this in a certain way. We’ve got to highlight the most receptive arguments with the most receptive people. And it may take us a while, but we’re at least getting started and I’m excited by it because I know people whose lives have been… As with cannabis, for me it’s about the patients and the story, their stories, and learning from these people who have just had overwhelming trauma and crippling anxiety or treatment resistant depression where no drugs were working for them. And then unlike with cannabis where it’s like every day or whatever you’re using it, they’ll use mushrooms once and then they’re good for six months.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. One time. One time.
Connor Boyack:
And it’s just amazing. So I’m excited about it.
Tim Pickett:
It is. I interviewed Steve Urquhart with the Divine Assembly Church here in Utah, that’s protected. And you even see psilocybin as a protected religious activity where cannabis, you would never think about protecting cannabis use as a religious activity, like a peyote or a psilocybin. So there’s differences in the way we view psychedelics, for sure.
Connor Boyack:
Maybe. Maybe. What I’ll say to that and I’ve said it to others is, I’m less convinced that there are religious freedom protections around this stuff. I just think it hasn’t really been tested. Like if you tell a cop on the side of the road who sees your bag of mushrooms that, “Hey, this is my religious sacrament.” I’m sorry. You’re probably getting it confiscated and you’re getting charged. And so if you want to fight that you’re going to go to court and you can try your religious freedom arguments. But while that case, for my past reading of it, I have to go back and refresh. I think it was just peyote centric. Right?
Connor Boyack:
I don’t know that a judge is going to say, “Oh yeah, sure, go ahead. We’ll let you off the hook.” So I don’t want to lead people to think that these are strong tested, validated protections where you are just going to be spared any altercations with the cops or disruptions with your job or anything like that. I just don’t think that’s the case. It sounds nice in theory, I don’t know that we’re there in practice. So I would still urge significant caution because I just don’t know that those protections are as robust as some might claim they are.
Tim Pickett:
It’s a good perspective. What else is Connor Boyack working on, which got you up at night researching and working on projects?
Connor Boyack:
We’re still trying to repeal the death penalty in Utah. That’s a big one for us that we’re working on. We’re working on a lot of local government stuff right now, especially in this economy with housing prices, affordable housing and stuff. Trying to figure out things like ADUs and short term rentals and reforming zoning. So you can’t have people so restricted in building more high density and things like this. That’s a big problem right now. We’re doing a lot of tech and innovation stuff. So we got Utah to pass this thing called a Regulatory Sandbox where innovative businesses can basically have certain laws suspended that conflict with their new approach to doing things while they go out and demonstrate how they can do so safely and effectively.
Connor Boyack:
And so that’s a brand new thing that we’re working with a lot of other states to pass right now. We’re doing a lot with what’s often called school choice. Making sure that families have options beyond just their local government school and make sure that parents are empowered to figure out what’s right for their kids, rather than just what are the options at the school down the road. And so we work a lot in education as well. And then a whole bunch of other… Criminal justice stuff, tons of stuff we’re working on there. So we’re actually doing some strategic planning right now and figuring out the next big battles.
Connor Boyack:
I think psilocybin and psychedelics are a really big one. That’s going to have a lot of our focus moving forward as this task force gets set up, just to make sure this gets guided in the right way. And we’re saying the right things to the right people. And so that one, I think is the bigger one for me right now, just because it’s got that personal impact so deeply. These are people who are suffering right now. So that’s the one that I’m thinking the most about right now.
Tim Pickett:
Do you feel like this is… I look at politics and I look at lobbying and things like this is… Maybe it’s a unique way. Maybe it’s not. I feel like things like cannabis and psychedelics and psilocybin and we’ll move towards as the population ages and people die off. And the young people get a little older and start taking more control in the government offices. Cannabis will become more ubiquitous. It will become more accepted regardless, essentially of what we do. It will just happen. Psilocybin or psychedelics may have that same trajectory. But do you feel like your work at Libertas and your work personally is trying to condense that timeline so you can get change to move just a little bit faster?
Connor Boyack:
Yeah. I agree with you. I think some of these things are in some respects, not inevitable, but probable based on changing demographics and perspectives. I think that’s a fair way to put it. I would just describe it this way. I’m a very impatient person. So I don’t want to wait for the FDA to approve some whatever after a 10 year protracted. I got no time for that. People are struggling now. There’s something we can do now. So let’s just do it. And I think my impatience get me in trouble sometimes cause I am very problem solution oriented.
Connor Boyack:
So it’s like, “That’s not working, right? Okay. Let’s go do that. Let’s get it done. Let’s jump on it.” And so that’s I think what drives a lot of this. I do feel like that’s where things are headed, quote unquote. But no, I do think it’s an accelerant. I also think that some of the people who can be positively benefited right now might not be around in 10 years when we finally get around to it.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. It’s true. 10-
Connor Boyack:
Sorry. Let me let interject a quick story before it escapes out of my head.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Connor Boyack:
Cause that’s what my head does. I lose things quickly. Just to illustrate this exact point. My mom is an estate planning attorney, which means she does trust and wills and things like this. And she had this elderly couple that she had done her wills recently for. And in part because the wife was very sick, she had stage four cancer. Can’t remember which kind, might have been pancreatic, but very aggressive cancer. And so my mom does their paperwork and off they go. She gets a call from the husband about, I don’t know, four, six months later. And he is in tears talking to my mom and he says, “I want you to send a message to your son,” because my mom had shared my role in all this.
Connor Boyack:
He said, “I want you to send a message to your son. I want him to know that in the final days of my wife’s life, when the doctors and others wanted to put her on opioids and she was going to be all fuzzy, and out of it, whatever, while pain free, we got a medical cannabis card instead. And my wife was lucid. She was at peace. She could create happy memories and have final conversations with her family member. And that was everything to us, to have her present up to her final moments.” And so he’s just like with, as you can imagine, very strong emotion trying to convey this to my mom. And my mom’s all like,-
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Oh yes.
Connor Boyack:
And I was too, I’ve shared this story enough times where I’m not crying as much as I share it, but it’s like, had we waited a decade, right, that little bit of suffering for that one person would not have been able to be alleviated. So yeah. No, I’m very impatient. There are people who want change now. A person in our organization can do something about it and on some of these issues.
Connor Boyack:
And so I feel personally called to use a Mormon term in our culture, put my shoulder to the wheel, to try and push some of these problems away and try and make a difference. Cause sure, some of this might be inevitable, but at some point it’s going to be someone getting involved and saying the right things to the right people at the right times and the right way. Why can’t that be us now? That’s how I look at it.
Tim Pickett:
Push it over the finish line.
Connor Boyack:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Do you think we’ve missed anything, Connor that you wanted to talk about or that you want people to know?
Connor Boyack:
I’ll say this. Prop 2 is a struggle for a lot of people. It’s also a struggle for me where my motives were being questioned by a lot of people and again, they didn’t have a lot of information and they were claiming things. That’s fine. I understand it, I’m past it. I think we all want what’s best for those we care about. And other people may disagree with the decisions we made in the past. They may feel that the legislature overturned the will of the people. They may be upset that the LDS Church got involved and had some feelings about this. I get it. But for me, I talk to my kids about this a lot. I tell them, I feel like emotional pain comes when we’re unwilling to accept the reality of our situation.
Connor Boyack:
When we pine for what could have been or when we’re frustrated over what was, or when we’re stressed that we can’t have what we want. When you open this gap between what is and what you think ought to be, that’s where I think emotional pain and stress and anger and all these things come. And so for me, I guess if I were to just crudely simplify how I think, it’s like what is the reality of our situation? I wish the church had not gotten involved. I wish the governor’s office wasn’t fighting this behind the scenes. I wish Walter Plumb would’ve stayed out of it with all his stupid antics. I wish that we wouldn’t have had some of the fallout that we did with some of the activists who disagreed with our decisions but it is what it is.
Connor Boyack:
And we made the decisions that at the time we thought were the best for the patients that we were doing this for from day one in 2013. I want to focus on what is the reality of our situation. It’s a weird reality in Utah. We’ve got sociocultural things that no one else has to do it. I was just in California last week meeting with CEOs of think tanks from around the country. And a lot of them were asking me this dynamic to have this powerful church in my state that at any time can put its thumb on something. And it was like, “Well, let me tell you a story.” And I had stories to share. But we’ve got different sociocultural stuff here but at the end of the day, it’s the reality of our situation. I want to accept it and then figure out how I can influence it.
Connor Boyack:
And for me, I feel like a lot of people looking back in reflection are just angry about wishing that things would’ve been different or things shouldn’t have been done. And I understand it. I know where it comes from, but I hope moving forward that we can just recognize where we’re at now. Be grateful, not to me but just to the process, to the outcome, to the movement, the progress.
Tim Pickett:
You have the program.
Connor Boyack:
Yeah. Just to… Things are great. Let’s recognize what we do have and then figure out ways we collaborate to improve it.
Tim Pickett:
Well, Connor Boyack, president of Libertas Institute. I really appreciate you coming on. It’s been a long time. We’ve tried to get you… Get the timing to work out. And I like the stories. I like hearing from the people that were there and have a voice in this space. I think you did good work. And I agree with you, it’s not perfect, but it is where we’re at and it’s helping a lot of people. So I really appreciate it.
Connor Boyack:
Well, thanks for having me on. I’m glad we could finally connect and I think these are important stories to share. I’m glad as you told me before we recorded that so many of the interviews you have on here are the patients themselves.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Connor Boyack:
I love that because I think it’s easy, especially at the Capital or in the press to get focus on these little industry issues or the aggregate program, whatever. But it’s that elderly guy who called my mom, right? It’s that individual, it’s the Jennifer in 2013 whose son had, has still Dravet syndrome. And doing it for these people is what it’s really all about. So kudos to you for sharing those stories and clearly we all got more work to do, so let’s get to it.
Tim Pickett:
All right, everybody. Stay safe out there.
Episode 102 of Utah in the Weeds features Thomas Swahn of Swahn Balanced Health, a clinic specializing in ketamine infusion therapy and Medical Cannabis evaluations.
Tim Pickett:
Welcome everybody out to episode 102 of Utah in the Weeds. My name is Tim Pickett, and I’m the host. Here, a podcast about Utah cannabis and cannabis culture, and medical cannabis. And today, another discussion about psychedelics and these psychotropic medications. Ketamine, is the topic, mostly, of our discussion today, with Tom Swahn, of Swahn Balanced Health. They have a clinic in northern Utah, and specialize in major depression treatment with Ketamine infusion therapy. This discussion goes right along the lines of our discussion with Steve Urquhart in a previous podcast, where we talked about psilocybin and The Divine Assembly, with Steve’s church, and those developing research and studies regarding all of this psychedelic medications that’s coming down the pipeline.
Tim Pickett:
In fact, additionally, my discussion with the president of The Libertas Institute, Connor Boyack, about the psilocybin bill here in Utah that was recently passed, which develops a task force to study the effects of psilocybin, and what the program would look like, if in fact, Utah was able to put a program for these psychedelics and this type of treatment therapy together.
Tim Pickett:
I’m excited to introduce you to Tom Swahn. He’s a great guy, and knows a lot about this therapy, has been doing this for quite a while. Just a really interesting new concept of treatment that you go to every couple of weeks. Or you could go to a retreat and find these experiences, and really get in touch with what’s happening deep inside the brain, changing perspectives, and associating a different perspective to certain events. It has the potential to be really powerful for people, and I’ve known a lot of people who have had great success with this.
Tim Pickett:
Make sure you’re subscribed on any podcast player that you have access to, Utah in the Weeds. You can also find us on YouTube at Discover Marijuana. We have a lot of videos there for cannabis and cannabis therapy. Keep doing this program with cannabis here in Utah, and just excited it’s a beautiful June day here. Welcome. The birds are singing outside. Enjoy the summer and this discussion with Tom Swahn.
Tim Pickett:
Where did this all start? Because it looks like you went to Westminster. Are you from here, Utah?
Thomas Swahn:
Yes, I’ve always lived in Utah, ranging from cities between Farmington, is the furthest south, and right on the line between Ogden and north Ogden is the furthest north, but always in the little bubble.
Tim Pickett:
You have slightly gauged ears. I don’t even think they would’ve let you live in Farmington.
Thomas Swahn:
It’s true, that I was not well received there. And I’ve always been a little eccentric with my appearance, and so that was one of my first [inaudible 00:03:26] when I was young, growing up in an LDS family, that kind of free-thinking and doing whatever you felt like, wasn’t well received. Made you a bad person, accordingly a lot of the church leaders and the neighborhood where I lived.
Tim Pickett:
Right.
Thomas Swahn:
So from a young age, I was raised in an LDS family, but around 10 years old, I was telling my mom, “I don’t think God is real. I don’t think these are good people here. I don’t know why would take our advice on how to be good people from people who are like this.” And she would tell me, “If you talk bad about God, you’re going to get hit by lightning.” And I’ve always just been super logical, and I was like, “Then why do I not get hit by lightning?” That seems … I just always needed evidence.
Thomas Swahn:
And that’s the thing about Ketamine and other psychedelics, is that the experience was a spiritual experience. For me, that was evident. I was from this staunch atheist too, now, I feel like a pretty spiritual person.
Tim Pickett:
How did you get into medicine?
Thomas Swahn:
Frankly, it was just, I didn’t really feel when I was younger like I had a sort of a calling. But I knew I really liked science, I wanted to do something where I can help people. So I was like, “Well, maybe I’ll go to medical school.” So I started to doing premed in college, and within a couple of years realized, “That’s not something you can do on a whim.” Sure, I felt like I could have the capability to do that, but without the drive to do it, that’s so much work. So I was like, “Well, what can I do with all the prereqs I’ve already done in premed?” So I applied to nursing school, and they were like, “Yeah, you got all this prereq coursework done. You got great grades. Come on in.”
Thomas Swahn:
So I did that, and I just practiced as a nurse for a while. I worked in variety of different areas, from long-term care in hospice, and physical therapy rehab, to, I went to the operating room after that, and I left that-
Tim Pickett:
Where? Where were you in the operating room?
Thomas Swahn:
At Davis Hospital.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, cool. That’s what I did for six and a half year, is GI surgery and trauma.
Thomas Swahn:
Oh, nice.
Tim Pickett:
Right, for the general surgeons in West Valley. And the OR nurses there, you’re way too young for that, right? That’s where they go to retire.
Thomas Swahn:
Yes, yeah. But, I mean, there wasn’t a whole ton of critical nursing skills you needed. And so the fact that I was smart and could move like the wind, I was perfect there. I excelled at it.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Thomas Swahn:
Get everything prepped and good, and move fast. But that was one of the most fun areas to work, but it was not going anywhere from a [inaudible 00:06:22], kind of watching my bills slowly get lost.
Tim Pickett:
Sure.
Thomas Swahn:
So moved to ICU, I wanted to do something else, but didn’t know what. And I went there to just get all the skills that I could. And while I was there and watching people pretty much go through this worst case scenario of almost dying, but then we pull them back from the brink, just enough to survive, but their quality of life is garbage. And then we just send them home like we did a good job, and everybody pats themselves on the back. That was-
Tim Pickett:
I know. It is true, right? They leave, they go home. They’ve just spent 10 days intubated, 27 days in the ICU, then they … couple of, five, six days on the floor. And then you just send them home.
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
And you’re like, “Oh, this is cool. Way to go.” We operated on a guy who he blew a hole in his small intestine, just by running into a pole. He was playing some football and ran into a pole. And it took him … I saw him later, six months later after he was discharged from the hospital, and he was skinny, still. Because he’d lost the weight in the hospital, and then he decompensated so much that he never … it’s just so long to recover.
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
And he was a normal healthy guy, before and after. You would’ve considered him, after, a really healthy guy. But it just, so long to recover. And there’s not a good support system, even still. You have to know how to navigate that after-care system, you feel like, to get the help you need. Home physical therapy, home health. Your insurance will pay for all this stuff, but I never ordered it. And I’m a PA, I discharge people from the hospital. It wasn’t my wheelhouse really, so I didn’t really manage it.
Thomas Swahn:
I feel like each of these patients needs a social worker just to manage their own case, because our system is so fragmented that there’s … Yeah, how do you keep track of all the things and work your way through it? And the insurance is the one that gets to call the shots at every turn.
Tim Pickett:
Sure.
Thomas Swahn:
We have the people who stand to lose money if you actually get the care you need, deciding if you need the care.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, that’s true. So when did you decide to go into NP school? And you went to Westminster, yeah?
Thomas Swahn:
Yes. When I was in the ICU and seeing us just send all these people home, and not even just physically damaged, but mentally traumatized from the experience, we’d just send them home and say, “Good luck.” So I was considering doing CRNA, and that was based on my time in the OR, just because I thought it was a lot of fun. But I decided that a nurse …. that I wanted to help prevent these issues that land people there. So that’s why I decided to go to NP school. I also am a very ADD person, and so figured if I got bored, that would afford me the chance to switch specialty every time I felt like I needed to, keep it fresh.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Describe nurse practitioner school. Because the way we heard it in … Okay, this is not a slam to NPs, but I always think this is funny, that I was told this is NP school. Right? So I’m a PA, a physician assistant. In Utah, we are very, very similar. We used to be a little less similar until there was a bill passed two years ago that independentized PAs, allowed us to be independent, and actually bill people. And we’re one of the only states that does that.
Tim Pickett:
But in school, I was told that nurse practitioner school is nurses teaching nurses how to be doctors. That’s literally how it was described to me. Of course, this is a doctor who said it that way. But what was it like for you?
Thomas Swahn:
I really had a good experience at Westminster. Through the clinical rotations, I was able to choose pretty much all of my preceptors. The school would provide them, but I had so many connections to doctor who I knew personally. So I would just cast a line out for different specialties. It’s like, “Can I come follow you for a few months?” And so that, it was beneficial for me, and a lot of my preceptors were MDs or PAs.
Tim Pickett:
Sure.
Thomas Swahn:
I guess all my instructors at the school were nurse practitioners as well, so that’s literally true. It was nurses-
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, nurses teaching nurses how to be doctors.
Thomas Swahn:
Uh-huh.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, it’s funny, because your model, the nursing model, the lamplight of learning … My best friend in the world is a ICU nurse at IMC. Great guy, very, very smart guy. And there’s some things about nursing that are really, really great. And then there’s these other things that are … they’re traditional nursing care model that is … I don’t know, we don’t talk about it a lot. Do they have that at Westminster? At UU, it was like, “The lamplight of learning,” or something. And in PA school, we have the same thing. We have these things that were dumb.
Tim Pickett:
Does that taint you? Do you look back and think, “Oh, yeah. That part, I could do without.” Or, “I wanted a little more clinical diagnostic skills compared to the nursing skills.” Or, alternatively, because you had all the ICU experience and all the nursing experience, it was a lot easier for you to move towards, “Oh, that’s the pathophysiology of why that was the way we cared for the patient in the ICU. Now I understand how to diagnose that.”
Thomas Swahn:
That was a lot more my experience, was just, “I’ve seen these things done for years,” and I knew already, basically, what we would do. But school was, then, taking it up the ladder to why, why are we doing these things. And so I do feel like that was a major benefit, to have had so much clinical experience. But a little bit of the problem was everybody in my cohort had different backgrounds. And so depending on what you had seen in your clinical practice so far, certain subject would be a breeze. And then for me, I hadn’t done anything with children, so I struggled with pediatrics a little bit.
Thomas Swahn:
Almost to an embarrassing level, because between me and my wife, she had five kids and I had three when we got married. So we’ve got eight kids, but I’m still looking at milestones I could never quite nail down, like, “What is age was that? Why are you looking at …”
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. “When do you get hair there? You got to be way too early.”
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah, I thought it was a pretty good education overall. I do feel like we took a lot of the diagnostic information and a lot of the other stuff we learned from medical literature, than just nursing.
Tim Pickett:
Do you feel like there were things in that program that you, right off the bat … Okay, so you’re into Ketamine and alternative therapy, you do some cannabis stuff. But did you feel like even through the program, you were already a little skeptical, or did that come later?
Thomas Swahn:
Skeptical of Ketamine?
Tim Pickett:
No, skeptical of what we were taught. I don’t know. I remember our pharmacology and depression section, there were five medication types that we could give as first line. SSRIs, Wellbutrin. And really, it came down to, one of the things they told us in school, was just ask your patient if they know somebody who’s taken a medication, what that medication was, and did it work. Because if you diagnose depression in somebody, and they know a friend who took Zoloft, and they had success, they’re actually more likely to have success with Zoloft than a different medication. Just by the fact of knowing somebody who took it.
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Which made my ears perk up like, “What the … are you talking about?” You’re leaning into the placebo effect.
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
And some of these, yeah, that power of subjection is real. And so I started getting a little skeptical right from the beginning in certain aspects of medicine.
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah. In our covering of depression and stuff, there wasn’t really anything like that they told us. It was actually broken down pretty thoroughly. And like, “These ones are energizing anti-depressants. These ones are more calming. In these cases, you want to use this. In these cases, you want to do this.” But overall, we didn’t hammer on that really all that much. We did a basic amount of [inaudible 00:15:35] and stun testing. But mostly, it was just providing us tons of resources to reference, once we were in practice.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, nice.
Thomas Swahn:
So that was nice. But overall, we didn’t do any education on Ketamine. That was something that I became personally interested in. I got really interested in it, because it has this instant anti-suicidal effect, and I had a lot of suicide in my family growing up. I lost my dad to suicide when I was eight years old, I lost my aunt a few years later, and there were a variety of other family members who had attempted or succeeded in their suicide attempts. And this was something that could’ve changed my whole life.
Thomas Swahn:
So I just became really interested in it personally. And the more people I talked to about it, I was finding this … We all went through the D.A.R.E. program as kids, and thought, “If you use any of these illegal drugs, they’re all scary, and you’re going to trade a moment of fun for your brain. You’re literal … destroy your brain just to have fun times.” So that was when I was like, “Yeah, I would never be interested in that.” I value my intellect. But then, we find out from the evidence, actually, these things are really good for your brain. Psychedelics, Ketamine, they promote all this mental wellness, even in normal people without depression.
Thomas Swahn:
So I became really interested once I saw that safety and efficacy data. And I found that the people I was talking to were consistently like, “Oh, but it makes you hallucinate. I would never do that. I’m not that kind of person.” And that was wild to me. I’m like, “What does that even mean? What are you talking about? What kind of person?” The fact that it’s a pleasant experience and good for you, to me, that’s a win-win. But to them, there was something evil about a substance that makes you high, regardless of its effects.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. So say a patient come into you, and they’ve … I would imagine, most, there’s a lot of patients who come into you now, and they have never experienced anything like this in the past. Even with cannabis, they may have smoked weed and gotten high and understand what that feeling is. but there are a lot of patients, I bet, that come in with nothing like that, especially in Utah.
Thomas Swahn:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
With no experience of being, “high”. How do you explain Ketamine to that person?
Thomas Swahn:
I’ve written a whole Ketamine preparation guide that I send out to them and tell them a little bit about what to experience, how to get … the treatment. But when they come in for their treatment, I tell them, “We could talk about this all day long, and you will still have 0% of an idea of what the experience you’re about to have is actually like. The only way to know is to go through it.” And that why, if you think about what language is, t’s based on shared understandings. You can I can use words, because we both understand what that means. But if one of us has an experience that is completely outside of anything the other person could’ve possibly experienced, then there’s no words for that.
Thomas Swahn:
And so I tell them, “It’s going to be very bizarre. It’s going to feel like an ineffable, strange journey that you’re about to go on. But 95% of people feel incredible during it just regardless. It strips away anxiety, it covers you in a blanket of serenity. And your body is totally safe and fine. We’ve got a good environment. I’m here for you if you need. I’ll be checking on you regularly. You got a [inaudible 00:19:28] thing. You’re going to do great. But it is strange.”
Tim Pickett:
“But just plain and simple, this is going to feel strange. Let it go. Try to enjoy it, or just see where it takes you.” The initial treatment, how long is the effect?
Thomas Swahn:
So the IV infusion itself is over 40 minutes that I do here. Usually about 10 to 15 minutes after that, the strongest effects are wearing off, but then there’s residual effects for a few hours to the rest of the day, at least as far as the physical effects. The mindset changes. People will usually experience a benefit right away. That first couple of days after, they suddenly are aware of joy again. It’s kind of brought awareness to things in their life they can change and it’s given them a diff perspective of their problems.
Thomas Swahn:
But for that first one, they usually only last a couple of days, maybe up to a week or two or most, and that’s where we start doing the repeat treatments and a series. For most people, especially in more treatment resistant cases, they’ll need a full series of six treatments done twice a week. And then after that, we usually are able to achieve a pretty robust and durable response. And I’ll see most patients about once a month when their symptoms start to come back, they’ll come in for a booster treatment.
Tim Pickett:
About once a month. What’s the duration, the lifespan of a typical patient? Are they coming in for kind of a blast of treatment and therapy, and then you do once a month for … I don’t know do people do this for years and years?
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah, a lot of people, it’s going to be … so basically, we know from depression, your brain wants to build itself a certain way, and we can modify that with drugs. But as soon as you don’t have the drugs, it’s going to build itself back the only way it knows how. So usually, it tends to be a long-term thing, but I have noticed, I’ve been doing this for a year, and I’ve noticed that my longer-term patients, I will start to see them less and less over time.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Thomas Swahn:
And at first, worried that was just they couldn’t afford it, or were just dealing with it. But when I came to see them again, they were, “I’ve just been doing great.”
Tim Pickett:
I don’t really know a lot of the research behind this, but is there a rebuilding of neuro connections in the brain? With psilocybin, just the fungus, that is affecting something in the brain, where you’re creating new neural connections, or you’re disassociating some, and then allowing others to, I don’t know, develop, or you’re finding new connections. Because in PTSD, you have this emotional part of your brain that’s connected to the logical part, and it builds these calluses where it’s just firing over the same thing, so people get in the thought loop. Every time they go to a certain experience, they experience that trauma again. Where psilocybin is starting to show that these things are changing these neural connections. Is that the same with Ketamine?
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah, it’s a lot of the same stuff. With the classical hallucinogens, like psilocybin, or LSD, or ayahuasca, those are all serotoninergic in nature, they’re [inaudible 00:23:04]. This one, is an MDMA receptor, which is works with glutamine, and that’s our brain’s main excitatory neurotransmitter. And so you get a different feeling with the experience. And psilocybin and other of the classical hallucinogens can be very emotional. They’re very mood augmenting. And so whatever you’re experiencing is just an amplified version of that.
Thomas Swahn:
But Ketamine works through, they call it a use-dependent blockade, so as soon as those neurons are trying to fire, the most active one for those thick neural tracts of those ruminating negative thoughts are, those neurons will start to get plugged up with Ketamine. And so a lot of patients will, during their experience, try to be telling me what their experiencing, and then suddenly be like, “Lost my thought.” And I’m like, “yeah. We know. That’s what’s supposed to happen.”
Tim Pickett:
Right.
Thomas Swahn:
But it interrupts them by blocking them with ketamine, the most used neurons. But at the same time, it has a blockade effect on inhibitory neurons. It keeps our subconscious quiet, so we can think. And so, it’s similar to psilocybin, we get widespread brain communication through these back channels, areas that don’t normally communicate. They’re been able to identify a cascade of effects that results in an increase of brain-derived neurotrophic factor, for, they call it BDNS. And that actually does increase dendritic branching and synaptogenesis, people will have new neural connections forming at an increased rate.
Tim Pickett:
Wow. From an illegal standpoint too, obviously, your clinic can’t do psilocybin treatments.
Thomas Swahn:
Not …
Tim Pickett:
Did you say not yet?
Thomas Swahn:
I said not yet, but one day, we … I mean, they did pass through the Utah legislation, it was totally done, signed by the governor, house bill 167. I think it’s called the psychotherapy mental illness task force, something along those lines.
Tim Pickett:
Yes.
Thomas Swahn:
And so, they’ve put together this task force to make recommendations for currently illicit substances, like psilocybin or MDMA, and make recommendations on it, if and how, and how much, and who can use these for their therapeutic benefits. And I think that it’s good news that we’ve identified these things definitely are helpful. It’s to a point, we can’t really deny it anymore, so how do we use them?
Tim Pickett:
Sure.
Thomas Swahn:
And their report is due by the end of this October. I’m hoping that we’ll get some progress, and at that point, maybe will change the clinical [inaudible 00:25:45] on psychedelics and offer more things.
Tim Pickett:
Nice. Is there a difference between … you mentioned psilocybin, MDMA, Ketamine, ayahuasca. Is Ketamine closer to MDMA than psilocybin, or is there known differences?
Thomas Swahn:
Well, MDMA is, itself, an interesting middle ground. People will argue whether it’s a psychedelic or an empathogenic, or an entheogenic. I mean, it depends on how you’re interpreting it. Psychedelic just means mind-manifesting, and so it’s these mind-expanding drugs, I think, that encompass all of those. Entheogens are like God-manifesting, or it’s a class of these drugs that just increase feelings of love and social connection. And MDMA technically is methylenedioxymethamphetamine. It’s a form of methamphetamine that’s tweaked in a way that makes it both less harmful, and slightly psychedelic.
Thomas Swahn:
And they’re using that, specifically, in people with PTSD, because it promotes self-love and forgiveness and connection to other people in a way that helps people stop feeling like they’re worthless, or these traumas were their fault, or that it needs to control their lives. As far as the classical hallucinogens and Ketamine, they work through a much different mechanism. Mostly, they’re considered psychedelics together, because of the experience Ketamine creates is a very intense psychedelic-type trip, just like the other ones. But whereas some of those, I think will be better ultimately for depression, because they bring that freshness and joy back to life.
Thomas Swahn:
I think, Ketamine, with its ability to ease anxiety and feeling of fear or shame or guilt, I think that that’s ultimately a better tool to face some of these traumatic memories. Although they are finding with psilocybin studies, the benefits in some cases have lasted up to six months, a year. So I think that that will be a better option in a lot of cases.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. It will be really nice, to that point, to have multiple options.
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Because right now, we have … Well, I mean, it’s nice to have just the options we have, frankly. But it will certainly be better when there’s more options. And they’re already out there, MDMA, psilocybin, Ketamine, cannabis, even ayahuasca, peyote. They’re out there. They’ve been used for centuries, but we just don’t have them in traditional medicine, because we need pharmaceutical companies to sign off on these things. Unfortunately, the way our system works.
Thomas Swahn:
One of the [inaudible 00:28:42] I think will be beneficial going into the future as we get more data on all these things, on their safety and their effects, will be to be able to combine in ways that will amplify effects. I mean, if you read some of these … what do they call them? Trip reports. Online, people talk about mixing Ketamine and MDMA, or psilocybin and Ketamine, or whatever, cannabis and these other substances. And the synergistic effects could, I think, provide invaluable things that none of them could do alone, but we’ll have to wait until we have more safety data.
Tim Pickett:
Right. Yeah, how to blend them together. And then, boy, you’re going to have to be monitored. Speaking of monitoring and Ketamine, so you’ve got a twice a week therapy, you can come downtown and you can get this therapy or go to Clinton and get this therapy. But what about going to retreats? Is there a place where Ketamine therapy can be done in a retreat setting, where you go somewhere? Because for me, it seems like Memorial Day weekend would be a perfect time, to where I could show up Saturday morning, I could meet the provider, I could have a little lunch, I could get a little intro to the system. Then I could have my first Ketamine session that day, see how that feels, do another one Sunday, cleanse on Monday, come home. Or a six-day. Does that work? Or do these … you can’t do them day after day?
Thomas Swahn:
So, I mean, Ketamine, there are plenty of studies that have shown … have down consecutive day treatment. Or even, you could find some that were like, “Oh, it’s 72-hour continuous infusion done in the hospital.” And that sounds crazy, because it has a time dilation effect. It would feel like you were there for three infinities.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, wow. So when you’re in the K-hole … this is how we call it in the … I mean, I use Ketamine in the emergency department for … the kids cut his tongue open, and I’ve got to sew up his tongue, so we’re going to use Ketamine. We Ketamine for that. I guess off-topic here, what’s the dosage difference in what I’m using in the ER to put a person down so that I can do a procedure versus what you’re using in clinic?
Thomas Swahn:
So I think the IM dosing for sedation was six to 13 milligrams per kilogram, something like that. At the clinic here, I give it from 0.5 to 2 mg per kilogram. Because with the dosing of Ketamine, there’s actually an increase in neural activity up to a certain point, and then that Ketamine blockade of the neurons shifts from blocking certain channels while they’re open but just blocked, to totally shutting them down. And that’s when we get that total anesthesia sedation. But usually though, for OR sedation, they’ll mix it with Benzos or whatever else to promote amnesia of the experience, and to give a little more sedation.
Thomas Swahn:
The funny thing about kids, is they still have a layer of magical thinking. So whereas adults will get the emergence delirium when they have super heavy doses, and that’s why they stopped using it as much for anesthesia. Just fine with that. They go on these magical journeys, and they’re just cool with it.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. We use it more in kids than we do in adults, for that exact reason. The adults tend to not have … those heavy doses can tend to have like little mini nightmares. And then not only are you dealing with the injury that you have to fix, but you’re dealing with a grownup human being who’s not having a good time at all. But these doses that you’re giving are much, much lower.
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah, they’re much lower. And two milligrams per kilogram gives us a healthy buffer before we would reach any sort of sedation when given over 40 minutes. And even with that dose, the experience is quite intense. I don’t give most patients anywhere near that dose.
Tim Pickett:
I see. Do you build up a tolerance, like you do with cannabis and THC?
Thomas Swahn:
It’s not real clear, at this point, in the literature. What I’ve seen here at the clinic is that people will … are to build up more of a tolerance to the negative effect before they do the positive effect, similar to cannabis. I don’t really think that there is that much tolerance. Either that, or it must build quickly and maybe wear off quickly. By the time we get done with the induction series, we’ll get month out and do a dose of the same one, and people will report that it feels stronger. So that could be potentially a mild tolerance that was built. Or frankly, I kind of think it’s just, you had that gap between a series of these intense experiences, after you take them, a little more intense than you remember.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. And you’re also, I could see, getting used to, not that you’re building up a tolerance, just getting used to the effects and getting used to that journey. Where the mind goes, and being okay with … we can do that just a little more intensely, because now I’m used to it.
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Whereas, same thing with cannabis, right? You use your first time, maybe that causes some anxiety if you use too much. But after you get used to it, and you understand the sensation at that intensity level, then you seek that out in a lot of ways. Right? That’s your therapeutic dose.
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah. I usually will describe to my patients … dog getting used to riding in a car. At first, that time, it might be this flying metal death box, because they have no idea what’s happening.
Tim Pickett:
Sure.
Thomas Swahn:
[inaudible 00:35:03] stick your head out the window on the freeway on your little space cruise.
Tim Pickett:
Right, and now all of a sudden, you really want to get in the car, all the time.
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
That’s a good way to put it, because you’re right, you wouldn’t understand. That’s a really good analogy. Have you worked in a place where you’re doing daily sessions, like a retreat setting?
Thomas Swahn:
I haven’t. I’ve done daily consecutive sessions for just a few patients, like if they came from out of state, or something like that, where it’s not practical for them to stay and do twice a week for three weeks in a row. So in those cases, I’ve done three treatments in a row. And the first time they do great. Second day, they’re like, “Oh, I still feel a little overwhelmed from my first.” And then by day three, they’re like, “Got a little bit of a hangover, and I don’t know if I can do this hero’s journey for three days in a row.”
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Thomas Swahn:
Because some of the experiences, especially if we’re going up in dose, can feel like you’ve literally spent a lifetime on this journey.
Tim Pickett:
Wow. Does Ketamine therapy work in conjunction with behavioral therapy really well?
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Is that part of the decompression of all of these things that are coming up from your patients?
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah. The optimal way to do it would be to have a therapist, discuss with them that you’re going to do Ketamine therapy, go over some grounding techniques, some intention setting to decide what you want to get out of the therapy. And then when you come in, that can kind of act as your GPS for where experience goes. But then, once they start the … like you said earlier, the best thing, and really the only thing you can do is let go and float downstream. Just go with the experience, fully surrender to it.
Thomas Swahn:
And I’ll coach my patients like you might have emotional content or even traumatic memories come up. But if you trust the Ketamine, trust yourself, trust the experience there, lean into it, then you will be able to get a different perspective and process these things in a way that might’ve been impossible for you. And so, after they go through those experiences, I usually recommend trying to get into your therapist again in the next couple of days, while we have that increased period of synaptogenesis so that new neural connections happening at an increased rate. And that way, they can really capitalize on the fact that they’ve been knocked out of their rut, their ruminated thoughts, as well as this opportunity to develop new skills, faster.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I can just see how that would be really helpful for people who go through this experience and then want to talk about what it means, and how it can affect them and what to do next. And that change in perspective, for PTSD, we know that being able to see the event from a different perspective, essential, it’s one of the key pieces to curing, if you could cure PTSD.
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Death, do you have people that come in and do Ketamine treatments who are dealing with cancer diagnoses and facing their own death or the death of a loved one?
Thomas Swahn:
That’s something that is a really useful aspect of Ketamine therapy, or other psychedelics. I, personally, have many of those patients. Actually, [inaudible 00:38:53] know people in my personal life dealing with cancer and I’m unable to get them to come in. But it’s one of those things, that quite frankly, it makes you feel connected to the … way that it makes it seem like you won’t be gone if you die. You just will return to the ocean that is the universe we’re all swimming in.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. What are those barriers? How do we get past that? How do we get past people’s resistance to therapy like this? We’ve been trying. I’ve been trying with cannabis.
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
I almost think it’s easier with cannabis than it is with Ketamine.
Thomas Swahn:
It certainly is. And I’m a QNP as well, as you know. I can far more readily convince people to try cannabis than Ketamine. It still has a scary aspect to the journey, because you tell people it’s life-changing. But it’s very intense, strange. And especially the people I’ve known who are going through chemotherapy and cancer and the dying process, they seem to be kind of stuck in that fear. And they’re, I guess, just afraid of what they’ll experience. It seems like if you tell them, “This will make it not seem scary that you’re dying, or at least will help change your perspective on it,” I think that that just in the moment sounds extra terrifying. I’m not sure how to really go about that, but it is something I think about pretty frequently.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, it seems like society is moving it forward slowly. But I talked to Connor Boyack, he’s the president of The Libertas Institute, was really influential in getting the cannabis law passed. And he was influential in the psilocybin bill, the task force that was passed this session. And we talked about how generationally things will change, and we’ll probably get to a point where Ketamine is much more normalized, where cannabis is much more normalized throughout the population.
Tim Pickett:
But on the other hand, the person who needs it tomorrow, right? That 62-year-old with major depression, who needs a Ketamine treatment to save their life, to your point about your family, we can’t really afford to wait to let society catch up. We really have an obligation, I feel like, as providers, especially to educate people that there’s something else out there, in order to push that conversation. When that 62-year-old needs it tomorrow, or else they die on Friday, we need to figure out a way to get that conversation … speed it up.
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah, and it’s something that, ultimately, I feel like we should even be doing when patients come, but the problem with giving it at that instance is that that’s a horrible environment to do it.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Thomas Swahn:
You’re in there, everything’s sterile, people screaming up and down the hallway. That’s a recipe for a bad experience. I don’t know what the ultimate infrastructure would look like, but I do feel like we need to take this seriously and consider, how do we implement this? Even the … ultimately, for depression are kind of baffling to me. We’re still on this, sort of in this position that Ketamine’s new, that it should only be used as a last resort. Why do we reserve these therapies that I feel like could stand to improve almost anyone’s quality of life and experience like this. And we reserve it for people who already at rock bottom, and everybody else is just expected to deal with whatever they’re dealing with.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. That’s surprising to me too. Why is this last-line therapy, instead of first or second-line therapy? Why can’t we change the mentality of prescribing two or three pills, to, “Okay, maybe, which do you want? Here are the three options. We can do a prescription medication, and you can try that for a month, and that’s totally okay. We can give that a shot. Maybe you’ll feel more comfortable with that in the beginning. We also have this treatment protocol with Ketamine therapy. Both are in conjunction with behavioral therapy.” And you can kind of decide, that here’s the evidence on both sides. Let the patient be part of the conversation.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, I know the answer is probably just, “Well, I have 15 minutes with the patient. The easiest thing to do instead of explain this whole thing to them is just to write a prescription and see them in three weeks. Just be done.
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, besides that Swahn, they don’t take insurance, right?
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Sorry.
Thomas Swahn:
Exactly.
Tim Pickett:
But the pill, totally covered, no problem.
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah. And then that gets us to kind of, frankly, the bullshit around S-Ketamine, of like, “Oh, it’s this. We just filtered out the left-handed molecules from Ketamine, called it a new medication.” Now it’s $800 a dose, instead of $3. And you still need two hours of monitoring, but we’ve got a patent on it, so we can charge whatever we want.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. What is up with that?
Thomas Swahn:
It’s a case where we’ve let the pharmaceutical company decide, “This is how we make money, so this is how it needs to be done,” rather than using these tools we have and know are effective. It’s considered off-label and came off patent in 1990, so nobody’s interested in trying to push it for FDA approval, because they can’t make any money back.
Tim Pickett:
Do you use nasal Ketamine at all?
Thomas Swahn:
I don’t, [inaudible 00:44:57]. But you can get racemic Ketamine, which is just the 50/50 mixture, for people that know. You can get that just compounded in a nasal spray. I could easily prescribe that to a patient. And there’s no clear evidence whether S-Ketamine or the right-handed molecule, R-Ketamine are any more effective. I’m sure they have minor differences in psychoactive effects and duration and whatever. But when we already know one form is very useful just in its super cheap form, it seems strange to me that we would allow our insurance companies to only cover the super expensive form that’s not proven to be any better.
Tim Pickett:
Wow. So how do patients get in touch with you and get associated with this type of therapy, if they have major depression, or if they want to explore it and just come talk to you? What’s the process?
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah. So what I usually do is just have patient … there’s a self-scheduler on our website. Our website is SwahnBalancedHealth.com. Swahn is S-W-A-H-And, and then balanced with a D, health.com. They can schedule an appointment right on there. They can give us a call, 801 613 8842. And I’m happy to answer calls when I can, anytime. They can even text that number. And we can do a phone consultation. There’s very few contraindications to Ketamine therapy that would make it unsafe. Some of them are unstable hypertension, more sever cases of cardiac, kidney or liver disease, active psychosis, elevated pressure in the brain or eyes. We proceed with caution in cases where there’s substance abuse issues. But outside of that, there’s very few reasons that it’s contraindicated.
Thomas Swahn:
So people can even schedule online themselves. As soon as they do that, I will send out intake paperwork. Then they’ll fill that out. We’ll meet for first appointment and go over everything, make sure that they are an appropriate fit, and then we can get started right …
Tim Pickett:
And how long does it usually take to get in?
Thomas Swahn:
I mean, right now, the clinic’s still young. I’ve been doing this for a year total, but we moved into this location October 1st, 2021. And so we’ve only been here seven months.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, so still building up a patient base, still plenty of availability is essential what you’re saying.
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah. Yeah, I should have openings pretty much every day that we’re open. It’s pretty rare that the entire day is fully booked out. People can get in, right away.
Tim Pickett:
And then you do this, you do cannabis. And what else does the clinic do? Those are the two things.
Thomas Swahn:
So right now, that’s all I do. Yeah. Basically, when I started offering Ketamine therapy, the improvement in people’s quality of life was phenomenal. I’d never seen that promising in medicine. And so I wanted to build a place that went away from the sterile, clinical feel. And so this clinic that we’ve opened here, I’ve got different themes for each patient room. Each room has a different nature-based theme. I’ve got a forest room with tapestries and different plant stuff. There’s an Echo Dot in every room to play music. There’s two recliners, so they can bring a guest. And I’ve got light projectors that actually will reduce a lot of the dizziness some people can feel from visual effects.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, cool.
Thomas Swahn:
So they can wear an eye mask if they want, but the projectors have done a really good job of changing it from these kaleidoscopic visuals to more of just a flow. It feels very incredible. I wanted it to feel more like the spiritual experience that I feel like it is. And like you said with these retreat settings, I think ultimately, that will be a beautiful option.
Thomas Swahn:
And Ketamine was known as the buddy drug when it was first being used. It made its debut in 1970 in the Vietnam war. And they called it the buddy drug, because anybody could grab a syringe and sedate your buddy. It was just that safe. It preserves cardiovascular function, it preserves respiratory function and protective reflexes, so there’s no life support needed. Even in here, in the clinic, honestly, I feel like checking vital signs at all is more of a medical formality than anything. There’s rare [inaudible 00:49:46] anybody with any issues. And usually, it’s if they’re stopped taking their blood pressure medication that we’ll even see a problem.
Tim Pickett:
Sure.
Thomas Swahn:
They’ll have to postpone treatment until their blood pressure’s under control. But in general, yeah, if you were able to establish with a bunch of people at a retreat that they had a good health history, were good candidates, their vitals were stable, I don’t even think you would need to check them again for the rest of the weekend. Granted, that’s, I guess, sort of a-
Tim Pickett:
Talking from experience, right? You’re comfortable with it, you know what to expect, you know what to look for, which is awesome. This is awesome. Have we missed anything that you want to talk about?
Thomas Swahn:
In general, no. I think that that covers most of it. I mean, there’s a lot of specifics, and I spend all day talking about this. I’m very passionate. So people are welcome to ask me any personal questions about their case, or what to expect. But yeah, I mean, I think that’s a good overview.
Tim Pickett:
This is good. I want to hear … I think we should get back together down the road, and talk about how the clinic is going, and also, talk about the … especially with psychedelics, as we expand the access to other psychedelics and we talk more about more psychedelics than just Ketamine. I mean, I’m interested, because you’re in this field, you’re a subject matter expert, so I think this will be an interesting conversation to have again. I appreciate you coming on.
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah. Thank you for having me.
Tim Pickett:
SwahnBalancedHealth.com, right? You’re in Clinton.
Thomas Swahn:
In Clinton, yep. Clinton, Utah.
Tim Pickett:
SwahnBalancedHealth.com, Thomas Swahn. Thanks. Thanks, man. Thanks for coming on.
Thomas Swahn:
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Tim. It was a pleasure.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. All right, everybody. Stay safe out there.
Episode 101 of Utah in the Weeds features Vanessa Kyrobie, who uses cannabis to treat the painful symptoms of a mysterious and debilitating disease.
Tim Pickett:
Welcome everybody out to episode 101, that is three digits, 101 to Utah in the Weeds. My name is Tim Pickett and today’s episode is an interview and really a deep understanding of how cannabis can change a person’s life. Vanessa Kyrobie is a patient here in Utah. She has a deep Mormon background, and this story will touch your heart. I rarely get a chance to hear stories that are like Vanessa’s and the impact that her change in attitude, I guess, or just understanding of the cannabis plant can have an outcome in a human life. And by extension the life of those around you, your family, your kids. If you know somebody who is hesitant about using cannabis, this is a good story to listen to. For those of you who are not subscribed, you can subscribe and you can be sure that we are headed towards another 100 episodes of Utah In The Weeds.
Tim Pickett:
Stay tuned for next week when we release an episode interview with Connor Boyack, who was integral in the writing of prop two, the passage, the negotiation that took place, he brings up some fans and some detractors, of course, with his involvement in what happened and the development of the Utah Medical Cannabis Program. For those of you, like I say, subscribe to Utah In The Weeds on any podcast player that you have access to. My name is Tim Pickett. We are found on discover marijuana on YouTube as well.
Tim Pickett:
You can subscribe there and download all of our episodes and see a lot of educational resource videos there that we do with Zion medicinal and Blake Smith. For those of you who are on our newsletter at utahmarijuana.org, that’s Utah marijuana.org, stay up to date with our webinar series. We do those I think monthly on Wednesday nights, you can also find those on YouTube at discover marijuana, lots of information, lots of resources, and have some fun out there this summer folks. Enjoy this episode with Vanessa Kyrobie. So take us all the way back, Vanessa, to when you first got introduced to cannabis.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
That’s a cool story. So in order to understand why I got introduced to cannabis, you got to understand how I became very sick. For 34 years, I was a perfectly healthy young woman, very ambitious. I was a senior engineer working for the LDS Church and I was living a wonderful life. In under 20 days in January 2018, my fingers and my feet, and my face started to go numb. And we thought that was some strange symptoms. And 20 days later, I had an MRI and that would be the last day I would walk for about 18 months. And the next two months after that, February, March 2018, I saw 14 doctors had over $150,000 worth of test. My body began to shut down. So the neuropathy spread across my entire body. My body felt like it was on fire. I could no longer stand.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
I could no longer control the left side of my body. They thought that I was having strokes. They thought I was having seizures. They tested me for MS. I was having lumbar punctures, MRIs. It looked like Guillain-Barré. This condition where your autonomic central nervous system shuts down very aggressively. I had all the symptoms of Guillain-Barré, but none of the proteins that you would expect your body to create when that was happening. And so all they could understand was that something was shutting my body down. Something was shutting down my central nervous system, but we couldn’t tell what. And so the pain that I experienced from this was indescribable. My entire body felt like it was on fire, pins and needles filling above that. And the pain was driving me mad. So the doctor started prescribing me so many types of opioids, Gabapentin, heavy-hitters, not so heavy-hitters.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, it’s insane. You talk about this like it’s just a story now. Right. But what you’re describing and Guillain-Barré is not common. It’s rare.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
It’s very rare.
Tim Pickett:
It’s very rare. And in the ER and in emergency medicine, we’re trained that it typically starts at the feet and works its way up, not typically in the hands, but it’s like people are wearing numb socks and then they get weakness and it goes up to the knees and it’s both legs. And then all of a sudden they can’t walk. And at that point, you start to really worry that as it creeps up, they won’t be able to breathe.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Correct.
Tim Pickett:
Like, and it’s coming and it’s devastating. Yeah.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
And it was scary. And that’s the same thing because as the neuropathy spread across my chest, my heart rate was too high and then too low blood pressure, too high, too low. I started passing out.
Tim Pickett:
And this happens with people with spinal cord injuries where you can’t regulate your nervous system. And that’s what regulates your blood pressure. So there’re these chills people get and the blood pressure and the heart rate starts to go… I mean, it’s trying to regulate, but it’s not communicating with the whole half of your body.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Exactly.
Tim Pickett:
Which at times will expand the blood vessels so then your blood pressure just drops. So your heart rate got to jack up and people shake and shiver. I was a CNA. My very first job in medicine was a CNA working with spinal cord injury patients. And we would see this nervous system, just the response was crazy. But the pain you describe is the burning.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Yeah. And we actually figured out what the burning was later. So I was keeping a medical journal and noticed I had four MRIs with contrast in under nine weeks and strangely enough my symptoms became considerably worse within 12 to 24 hours after each MRI. And the MRI comes with a contrast and the contrast is a gadolinium based, rare earth heavy metal that they claim is safe for your body and that your body will push it out in under three days. Well, we found out that my body composition does not push that gadolinium contrast out after an MRI. So what we had found out was that I’m going through all these symptoms and then I had gotten a manmade disease above this from my MRIs called gadolinium deposition disease. And that’s what made me lose my balance, lose my ability to walk, also aided in shutting down my central nervous system, because I essentially had heavy metal radiation poisoning from my MRIs that made my symptoms so much worse.
Tim Pickett:
Was this something that was underlying they thought or something that was caused by… What was happening to you? You weren’t excreting it, the body wasn’t getting rid of it. Is that something that you always have had do you know?
Vanessa Kyrobie:
So we found out later, so because I was healthy, these are things I’d never explored. So we later learned through genetics tests that I have a mutation, it’s called the MTFR mutation. So my body has lost about 80% of its natural detoxing abilities. So some of these medications that they put in my body I wasn’t able to detox the bad. We also learned that because of this genetic mutation and another one called ultra rapid metabolizer, that some of these opioids that they were giving me, my body was metabolizing them so fast that they became toxic to me. They were almost acting as neurotoxins rather than helping me with my pain and making things considerably worse for me. So it was a crazy combination. The neuropathy came first and then all these other symptoms showed up after the MRI. And it was just this perfect storm of being perfectly healthy.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
And under 20 days watching my entire body collapse both from whatever my mystery disease was that caused the neuropathy and we have some theories. We actually now have evidence from later MRIs that I had encephalitis, a very rare form of encephalitis called mycoplasma pneumonia, autoimmune encephalitis. And they think that this bacteria got into my brain, collapsed my CNS and the neuropathy feeling. I lost two thirds of my nerve density. And under about six months, we proved that with biopsies because when it’s your small nerve fibers being destroyed, they have to do a biopsy. They can do an EMG to look at your large nerves. My large nerves were fine. So they ruled out any delete disease of my large nerves, but realized that my small nerves, which is my autonomic central nervous systems’ communication pathways were disappearing. And that was what was leading to a lot of the autonomic dysfunction that we saw then, and that I still deal with today. I have POTS, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome. So my heart rate and blood pressure still can’t regulate. It’s been four years.
Tim Pickett:
And this is because the loss of the nerve tissue.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Correct.
Tim Pickett:
So there is some regrowing of nerves, but not in the way that you’re talking about or the way that you lost.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Very slow.
Tim Pickett:
You grow like a centimeter, an inch of one nerve. I mean, we’re never giving you back all of the nerves, unfortunately.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Correct. Correct.
Tim Pickett:
So 20 days, less than three weeks time, what’s happening for you? Oh my God. Just the emotional part of this.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Terrifying. I had two small children at the time. They were only four and six at the time. And so one thing that was really scary was my husband. I didn’t realize a few times was pulled out into the hallway and they said to him, your wife’s not going to make it. She’s most likely going to have a heart attack or her blood pressure will drop too low. She’ll go into levels of losing oxygen to her brain and she might just shut down in the middle of the night. They sent home a heart monitor at one point and said, you know what, this will beep if her heart goes too low, at least it might be able to wake you up and see what you can do. But they told him I was most likely going to die in my sleep. What was very frustrating was they could see my body shutting down.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
I was starving. I wasn’t absorbing nutrients. They would see me have these seizures. I was in the ICU in and out. But as soon as none of their tests came back positive with any meaningful reason or clear indication of what was shutting down my body, each time they said, well, your tests are normal. You look fine to us on paper. We can see you are not fine, but because there’re no diagnoses to keep you here, they kicked me out of the hospital every single time. I was sent home with nothing, I was even surprised I was losing so much weight and they wouldn’t even keep me to give me TPN or any other methods of nutrition. Again, simply because they couldn’t find a diagnosis that would explain my symptoms. Some of them said I had conversion disorder that this was all made up in my head and it felt real to me.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
And I’m like, no, I know me. I know my stress. My stress is what made me one of the most successful women in my career, I was one of the first females to graduate from UVU in a bachelor’s in computer science. I loved my stress. I loved my ability to use my stress to be an overachiever and a very productive young woman. By the time I was in my mid-twenties, I was enjoying very, very rich blessings from my talents. Right? And so for doctors to look at me and say, okay, you’ve lost the ability to walk, talk, eat, even swallow, my autonomic dysfunction for me to be able to swallow food even shut down. So I could get food to the back of my throat and my muscles couldn’t even contract to push food down.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
So I was choking on everything I was trying to eat. The other strange symptom as I started to spin in a clockwise circle. And that happened right after my MRIs. And we later found out that the MRI contrast embedded into my cerebellum, given me a form of cerebellar ataxia. I still can’t walk with balance. I had to learn how to walk visually. I did nine months of neuro rehab to walk visually because I had to walk with a cane or a wheelchair, because I couldn’t walk straight.
Tim Pickett:
So what happened? How did you get through it? Like did somebody decide, you know what, let’s do this one more test.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
So that’s exactly what happened. So we’re now at the end of March, I’ve seen, like I said, about 15 doctors and was in the out of the hospital about nine times. And one of my doctors finally said to me, here’s your choice-
Tim Pickett:
You’re in a wheelchair at this point?
Vanessa Kyrobie:
I’m in a wheelchair at this point. I can no longer walk. I can no longer eat. I couldn’t even make words come out clear. Even my speech was slurred. My tongue stuck out to the left. I had a really hard time being able to communicate. And that was a lot of speech therapy as well. But what was going through my mind was a lot of praying because my husband lost his mother to cancer when he was five years old and the last thing I wanted to do was have my husband go through the same thing, having children almost the same age that he was when he lost his mother. And now to have to experience through the side of being a widow with two kids.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, and you were telling us about the test, the final test.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Yeah. The final test. So I had prayed that I would find the right doctor to figure this out and sure enough, within 24 hours, three different people reached out to me and said, hey, he doesn’t take insurance, but there’s a doctor. His name is Dr. Andrew Peterson. He’s with a company called Forum Health here in Utah. And they said, look, he says that he’s a functional integrative medicine doctor, but he’s also a doctor who’s a diagnostic expert. He can figure things out when nobody else can. And so I called their office and obviously he’s a wait to get in. And they’re just like, oh yeah, he could probably see you in two or three months. And I’m like, here’s the deal, one of my doctors said that I have less than two to three weeks to live. Here’s the state that I’m in.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
And my options were to die at home, die at Mayo Clinic. And maybe they might figure something out or choose a hospice. And they said, hold on, came back onto the phone five minutes later and said, he can see you tomorrow. He’s booked out three hours. So I sat down with this doctor for two hours and he went over every single test, every single result, every doctor’s note over the last three months, looked over a brief medical history and said, okay, there’s a lot that hasn’t been tested yet. Hold on. He wrote me a blood lab, it was 46 files of blood that I had to be drawn in three different locations, Lab Corp quest in the hospital. And it was a $22,000 blood test. This blood test results came back three days later and that’s how they found the mycoplasma pneumonia antibodies high enough for them to say, all right, we’re pretty sure that from this, you are dealing with a form of encephalitis and this bacteria is so small.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Mycoplasm lever later learned is a recognized bacteria in the medical community. But because it’s so small, it doesn’t have a cell wall and antibiotics don’t work against it. So most of my traditional doctors don’t think of testing for mycoplasma infections and there are sometimes considered co-infections of Lyme disease and other things. I was negative for Lyme disease, but my antibodies were 6,000 times higher than the threshold for mycoplasma pneumonia. So the best guess was that this infection got into my brain and then further my body became autoimmune to the presence of this bacteria. So my body started attacking my own central nervous system, as well as this bacteria festering in my brain. And we have MRIs that indicate with the lesions and holes and tumors that it’s left behind that this kind of damage would only be seen if there was an infection in the brain, but it took us to almost three years to figure that out from beginning to end for that damage to actually show because you can’t fight this type of infection with antibiotics, I began doing IVs.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
And so the IVs that he chose to do, they’re natural high dose vitamin C ozone, and he did throw antibiotics in there just for good measure and slowly but surely doing these IVs over the next three months, improved some symptoms. But what we didn’t know was the heavy metal poisoning from the MRIs was causing the rest of the symptoms as we sat there. He’s like, okay, these central nervous system issues that you’re having and some of these neurological issues you’re having, we can track that back to this bacterial infection possibly, we can track that back to autoimmune possibly, but your skin being on fire, you spinning like a drunk, some of these things don’t make sense. And about the same time Chuck Norris, the Chuck Norris came forward and said to the world, hey, my wife was almost killed after having seven MRIs.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
And they had done this huge interview and his wife had gotten on the news and she said, after my MRIs, one of the first symptoms was, I felt like I was on fire. And that was a huge light bulb in my head. I was just like, wait, Gina Norris just said she felt like she was on fire and that’s one symptom that none of my doctors could understand was me saying, literally I feel like I’m on fire. And so we started researching it and sure enough, very rare populations can’t expel MRI contrast so the rest of my symptoms happened to be heavy metal poisoning from a manmade injection from my MRI scans. And that took me about $60,000 and 18 months of chelation therapy that I had to go through with the PICC line and the chemo port in order to remove that heavy metal that the MRIs had left in my body.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Six months after my MRIs, we had measured it for the first time and my gadolinium and uranium levels, because gadolinium is actually mined with uranium was 600 times normal than a human body should have. And to equate this, it’s the exact same treatment I would have to do. If I decided to go to Chernobyl and dance in reactor four naked, it’s the same treatment you would do for radiation poisoning. So those combined, you can imagine I was in a lot of pain and none of the opioids were working. That’s how I got introduced to cannabis.
Tim Pickett:
Wow.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Little blown away. A crazy story.
Tim Pickett:
That’s crazy. I mean, I’m sorry. I’m chuckling, this is just crazy.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
I know crazy. I have to too, because you look back, I mean, in the moment this was terrifying. Right?
Tim Pickett:
Oh, unbelievable. But you’re on somewhat on the other side of a lot of this right. Where you don’t fear death tomorrow.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Correct.
Tim Pickett:
Right. I mean just that alone is just such a huge success. Okay. So wow. I mean, I got to take a breath for heaven’s sakes. That is awesome. Just an awesome case. Right? Okay. So now, opioids aren’t working and I mean, nothing would work.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Yeah. Right.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, I can’t think of a drug that I would prescribe to you right now that would really help.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Correct.
Tim Pickett:
You’d have to take so much Gabapentin, you’re taking Ambien to sleep. You’re taking opioids to take your pain out, but then your digestive system isn’t working, especially if you’ve got autonomic dysfunction, your GI system isn’t working anyway as well.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Correct.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. There’s not a lot of really great… Well, there’s no good prescription medication out there for you.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
No. And that’s what was insane.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. So who says, hey, I know what you should do?
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Yeah. So that happened to be, I have two uncles that are physicians in California. One of them is an OB, the other one’s a family practitioner and does both functional medicine and traditional medicine. So my doctors/uncles are very well aware of what I’m going through. So May 2018, they reach out and they say, hey, with all these symptoms that you’re having, you need to try cannabis. Now you got to understand, I grew up LDS. I’m working for the LDS church. My very first thought was, you remember going back to fourth grade saying no to drugs I took.
Tim Pickett:
Yes.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
At the time I was so naive, I wouldn’t have known the difference between heroin and cannabis. Right?
Tim Pickett:
I mean, that’s what we were taught in the school.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
It’s what we were taught. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
They were side by side.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Yeah. All these drug classifications are all bulked into one, all horrible for your body. They’re all entryway drugs to something worse. And so my first thought was absolutely no way.
Tim Pickett:
Well, and plus you were working for the church.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Exactly. And it’s illegal in Utah.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, I grew up Mormon and I understand and it’s one thing to be active LDS in Utah. And it is kind of another level to be active LDS in Utah and work for the church full time. Right?
Vanessa Kyrobie:
It was my career. Yeah. And we reached a point where at that point there was, there was two things that shifted in my healing journey. The first thing was a realization that I couldn’t control what was happening to my body, but I could control how I was going to react to it. So even though I was dying, I said, I am going to let people see my positivity, see my hope, see my smile, see my strength. I wasn’t going to let what was happening to my body, determine my outcome. Now at the same time, I wasn’t going to roll over and die. As I said, I was a high achiever, an overachiever, one of the first in the field as a female and I just turned all of that into learning about the body, learning about natural medications. And so I had researched cannabis and I started learning about the endocannabinoid system.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
And that was the first thing that made me realize, wait, if God gave us an endocannabinoid system that has the ability to help with your pain, reduce inflammation, stop disease, and this can only be activated by a natural plant that has the compounds that react go into these receptors. I’m like, okay, God gave us an endocannabinoid system for a reason and he has given us plants that nothing else can fit the receptors for that. There’s got to be more to the story here. So after doing a little bit of research, I called my uncles back and said, okay, I want to try this, but I absolutely have to be able to do this in a way that I’m not breaking any laws. And so they said, well, come down, come live with us and let’s try it in California where it’s legal.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
And I said, all right, let’s do it. So I went to California and stayed with my uncle and started using medical cannabis and just simple things like tinctures and gummies. And it was incredible. And under three days of being on cannabis, I was able to walk without a cane. My spinning in my head reduced significantly. I wasn’t spinning as a drunk as much. I was amazed at how much it helped me be able to keep food down. I wasn’t throwing up all of my meals. The autonomic dysfunction didn’t go away, but it lessened. I mean, and that was only within three days. By the end of my two week stay, I wouldn’t say I was healed. I mean, obviously this isn’t a magical cure, but I was functional. That was the biggest thing that I realized was I could actually appear functional as long as I had this medication in my system.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
And it almost seemed opposite when I don’t have cannabis in my system. My speech is lured. I still spin like a drunk. I fall over easy. That’s when somebody would look at me and be like, you look a little impaired or something’s not right in your head. When I’m on cannabis, especially the sativa side, sativa hybrids, I can speak clearly. I can think, I can respond. I can drive safely. I can walk without falling over. I can manage my pain, all of these things.
Tim Pickett:
This is still even true today?
Vanessa Kyrobie:
It is still true today. Since it’s become legal, every single day I have a form of cannabis, either through a patch, a tincture under my tongue, mince that I take. I vape very occasionally only if I need it to hit a little bit faster for, I have flares. Obviously, a lot of my diseases have left me with flares. But what I found was the magic combination for myself was very high dose CBD. So my CBD intake is between 50 to a hundred milligrams a day. And my THC is between 2.5 to five milligrams about once or twice a day. And that’s about it. And the high dose CBD is actually what helped me when I returned to Utah because obviously I said, you know what? I’m going to keep the laws, but I’m going to advocate for medical marijuana.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
And I was really excited when I came back to Utah, started researching our laws to find that liver toss and the Utah patients of cannabis and natural choices had announced, hey, we’re going to propose a bill that people would be able to vote on for legalizing cannabis for medical use. And I was all in, I was passing out signs. I was at the governor’s office when they were discussing some of the proposals. I was at the press conferences. I was running booths. I was sharing with people my story about how medical cannabis was helping me with my own disease and including people that said no, I’m not voting for this. This is a drug it’s going to end up on the street. And I expressed to them, look, this saved my life. This helps me. And a lot of these people said, wow, well, you’re an amazing person. I’ve always been inspired by you and you’re telling me this medication helps you and you’re asking for the right to use a natural medication. How can I say no to that?
Tim Pickett:
Right.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
And so a lot of people that said no to voting originally would talk to me and say, you know what, for you I will vote yes. And that was a really big deal. The night that it passed, I did a quick news interview with KUTV and stood there and said, I am so happy. Thank you. Thank you for giving me the right and it’s sad that we had to vote on this. But thank you for giving me the right to choose to use a natural plant for my own healing.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, absolutely.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
That was a big day. That was absolutely a big day for me. And I got my letter the next day. So I was definitely one of the first people to be able to have access to this medication. Use it legally, as well as having the opportunity because I worked for the LDS church to speak to higher up members to express to them, hey, this medication helps me and could someday be the key for me to return to work. Unfortunately, some of my conditions were not reversible and I was ruled permanently disabled in the beginning of 2020. So as soon as that happened, I was trying so hard to return back to work and get my career back. And I was crushed by that ruling. I wasn’t expecting it, but the brain damage is too extensive. The neuropathy has still not stopped. So I still struggle there. I have chronic migraines, chronic nausea, autonomic dysfunction continues. So I am now adjusting to a life that’s different from what I expected, but making the best I can of what this life’s given me. So that’s really where I am today.
Tim Pickett:
So talk about the event that made you choose cannabis. We had talked about this before we started recording.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
So I actually reached a point where I had determined I wasn’t going to break the word of wisdom or the rules of my church and I wasn’t going to take cannabis. And I reached a point where the opioids I was on were making me go crazy. All I could think about was self-harm. And that me dying would be the only way to get a release from this pain. So I actually did a lot of research to take the right pills and I set a date and a time where my kids would be at school and my husband would be at work and I’d be home alone to take these pills and end my life. And I did so, and whatever happened next is nearly unexplainable, but I found myself in a beautiful garden. And so I thought at first, all right, I did it. This must be heaven or some transitional phase into heaven, and I’m looking around and I see a man walking towards me in white robes and immediately realized this is Jesus Christ walking towards me.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
And for a quick second, I had this sense of panic, sadness, depression dread, oh my gosh, I just took my life and here’s the moment that I have to face him. And just hoping that he’ll understand why I did it, that he would understand that I did this because I couldn’t handle the pain anymore. I couldn’t handle this disease and had lost hope. And what’s also strange is this opioid that I was on does have a side effect that makes you have disassociative suicidal tendencies. And a lot of people have lost their lives using some of these particular drugs. But I felt like when I took my life that I was watching myself in third person, I really didn’t want to do it. But I watched myself doing it with the other half of me saying, no, I don’t want to, but not feeling like I was in control, but coming back to the garden, he was approaching me.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
And the first thing I noticed is that he was holding a plant in his hand and he comes up to me and I remember looking at his eyes so much love and understanding and compassion. And he simply looks at me and says just these things, Vanessa, I created this plant for the use of man, why are you rejecting my gift? And that’s all he said, that’s all he said. The next moment I was awake. I was laying on my bed. My phone was ringing off the hook. And as I had understood, it was my mother. She had called three times and she had picked up my kids from school. As I had planned, she was driving them home and she lives about five minutes from my home. And as I said, my kids were just four and six at the time. And all of a sudden, all three of them heard the words of someone say, pray for Vanessa.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Pray for Vanessa right now. And my mother immediately pulled over. Even my little four year old daughter says TT, who’s the name of her grandmother, TT, TT, we need to pray for mommy right now. And so they all started to pray for me. And my husband had the same inspiration as well. And when I woke up, she had gotten home and she called me and she said, we had this feeling to pray for you. What happened? And she’s just like are you okay? Are you okay? And I’m like, no, I don’t know. I tried to take my life, but I don’t think it worked. And I’m still trying to remember what happened after, but in the end there was no evidence that I had taken any medications whatsoever in my body. Nothing was found in my body. And from that point over, I realized that it was okay to use medical cannabis because this was indeed a gift man to help us with our diseases and our pain. And that’s what really made me choose to try medical cannabis.
Tim Pickett:
How’s your family adjusted to this new situation? The blessed part of this that they have you now?
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Correct.
Tim Pickett:
Right. Has there been other things because of your involvement in the cannabis advocacy world that have changed for you long-term? I mean just the news, the podcast, the advocacy, do you seem like you talk about this all the time now?
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Anyone I can share my story with, I share it with them. And I wouldn’t even say a little tension. At the time I was a youth leader in my ward. And obviously when my news story came out the day after it was legalized, hey, this is Vanessa Kyrobie. She’s LDS. She waited until it was legal. Here’s her story. Right? And I just thought, okay, this is just a simple little news story. It got rewritten in a few other languages. And my family from Mexico even called me to say, you were on the news in Mexico. I’m like, are you serious? It made it all the way down there. And they’re like, yeah. And obviously, I’m one of those people that I respect other people’s choices. And this medication had so much bad rap behind it, that there were members of my ward that came forward and said we think you’re a bad influence on the youth.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
We don’t want you in any leadership positions. You shouldn’t be talking about this in our ward or to our kids. And that was a little bit hard for me at first. Now it’s more open because now that the church has rewritten the word of wisdom to say, hey, this is a medication that we actually approve of as long as it’s being used correctly. And that’s typically what I respond with when people say, okay, you’re using medical marijuana. You’re just this pothead and what if you abuse it? Well, what if I abuse it? People abuse sugar, people abuse caffeine, people abuse their own prescriptions of Xanax and Adderall.
Tim Pickett:
And we’re on prescriptions to feel better, right? To raise our mood to be a little bit more happy.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Exactly. So I’m just like any of these things can be abused. I mean, yes. Can cannabis be abused? Can it be used for a recreational? It can. Sure. But so can your Xanax, so can your Adderall, so can your Coca-Cola you drink 19 times a day. I mean, it’s really perspective. I’m using it for the right reason. I don’t overuse it, I don’t share my medication. This is simply what helps me be able to live a fulfilling life to be able to be a mother to my children, to teach them and to be there for them. A lot of activities that I used to love are limited. That makes me sad. I used to be an avid hiker. We’d hike miles. I was a pro snowboarder back in my teens. I haven’t tried snowboarding in four years because I still can’t maintain my balance.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
When we do go on hikes, my kids recognize that mommy needs to sit down and take a lot of breaks. If I’m walking and my blood pressure gets too high or too low and I can feel it coming on, I just have to sit and kneel and my kids will sit there and just comfort me and people walk by. They’ll be like, it’s okay, mommy’s just a little sick. Don’t worry. You know? So especially my daughter, she’s now lived half her life knowing me as her “sick mother.” And even today, I’m not out of the woods. So from my chemo port, I got sepsis last year, spent 10 days over Christmas in the COVID overflow floor. That was awful. Right? So this last Christmas, since I got to be with my kids, when they wrote their letters to Santa, they didn’t ask for toys, they asked Santa please help mommy be home for Christmas. That’s all they wanted. It was for me to actually physically be there for Christmas, because they had missed me for 10 days.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
So it’s been fascinating. My kids have become amazing at understanding my condition. A lot of people try to hide that from their kids. I’m actually open with my children. They’re now almost eight and 10. And I say to them, this is mommy’s medication and it keeps locked up, but they understand that my medicine is a plant that comes from God. And they also understand that because of my diseases, there are days that I can’t fulfill a promise or go for a walk or play as long in the park. And they understand that because I’m open with them to help them understand what my condition does to my body. And instead of making it a hindrance, we’ve turned it into a family team project. You know, we help each other. We understand what I’m going through and they aren’t hard on me when there’re days that I can, there’re days that I can’t. And I appreciate that.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
It’s really hard to have a chronic disease if your family doesn’t support you, but my family has been nothing but supportive. Every single member, including my great grandparents that are like, no, marijuana’s bad it destroyed her son. No. Now they actually sit back and go. I’m so happy. I’m so happy that you found something that worked and it’s natural and it’s not going to hurt you. And I’ve not had any other family members be negative towards me about it.
Tim Pickett:
You’re bringing tears to my eyes, Vanessa. Just such a great story. For you regardless of the cannabis, really the cannabis in your story is really just a tool that you found to help. It just happens to be a big topic of discussion. I can read the words in your book that will certainly as you write all of this down and you write the book of your story and the 20 days of misery and of just hell coming at you.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
And then being able to find one solution after the other, that’ll be a fun story to read.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
I agree. Thank you. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
I’m so glad too that the system in Utah has such strong advocates for legitimate use of Medical Cannabis. Because I have said on this podcast many, many times that I’m an avid supporter of legal medical programs well before we even consider moving to adult-use or recreational programs because it’s stories like yours that legitimize it as medicine and we have to legitimize it to de-stigmatize it. And one day maybe we’ll get to the point where everybody understands it like you do.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
And understands that it’s just another medication in the medicine cabinet, the ibuprofen for the inflammation, the Tylenol for the fever, the 20:1 tincture for the neuropathy and the pain. Right?
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Correct.
Tim Pickett:
And the inhaled stuff for the flares.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Because it does work. It does.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
It really does.
Tim Pickett:
It takes the edge off. Right. It puts your pain over there on the couch.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Correct. And that’s why I tell people it doesn’t take the pain away and some days it does, it just kind of makes you a little disassociative from it. It’s just like, yeah, the pain’s there, but I can manage, it’s just put in the back burner. And I appreciate that a lot. Because imagine living your life where you’re trying to concentrate, you’re trying to work, even do a load of laundry and to feel the millions of pins and needles in every inch of your body. And I envy other people, they’re just like, oh yeah, I have my neuropathy in my hands and feet. And I look at them and I’m like, I wish I only had it in my hands and feet. It’s on every single inch of my body that I can physically feel. The neuropathy went up and over into my cheeks, up over my eyes.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
I feel like they’re going into my eyes. I’m slowly losing my vision because now the neuropathy’s degrading the optic nerves back into my brain. And then the only places I don’t feel it are just maybe a couple of parts of my back. So over the last three years, neuropathy has continued to stay aggressive. And I mean, aggressive enough that a judge, regardless of my age, young age, looked at it and said, this is some severe damage. You’re absolutely disabled because of this and the person who is the one who determines if there’re any jobs that I can do, because first they determine whether I can do my own job or not sit at a desk and work on a computer. And that was determined no. And then this representative goes out and figures out if there’s any job I can do, can I even just sit in a wheelchair and greet people at a Walmart, right?
Vanessa Kyrobie:
And this individual came back and said that there’re no jobs at all that would accommodate my disabilities. And once that was said, the judge said all right, you’re ruled disabled. And if people were to look me on the streets, they would not see someone sickly unless I’m walking with my cane. Then they kind of question, that’s a pretty young woman to be walking with a cane on a flare day. But for the most part, I’ve worked very, very, very hard to not look sick. And that’s hard. When people say, well, you don’t look sick. A lot of people could be offended by that. And I smile and say thank you. I worked very hard. I worked very, very hard to be able to look at you, speak clearly, stand without falling over so that you don’t feel uncomfortable seeing my symptoms.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
But at the same time, I love having my friends and family where I don’t have to hold that up. It does take a lot of energy to hold that image up. So they see me sitting down, throwing up, kneeling down, whatever and they understand and I can be myself around them and I can show my struggles around them. And that needs to happen just as much mentally to cope. Another thing that I’ve done is ketamine psychotherapy. I’ve done 16 sessions and ketamine is also my secondary pain medication that has helped as well. So a little combination of both, but especially CBD has been fantastic. I’ve given it to so many people who are wary about THC.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
At least I teach them about CBD. I have a really good friend. He owns, it’s called Dr. Monroe’s CBD Emporium. And he has created some of the yummiest tinctures I’ve ever had really high doses that he even created some custom high doses for my needs. And he also creates a chocolate version that I gave to my grandparents and it helped them with their neuropathy. And I have friends that are teachers and I gave it to them for anxiety. So they can cope with teaching a fourth-grade class and I’ve got some friends that just have some-
Tim Pickett:
You get CBD and you get CBD.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
I go into the store and he’s fantastic. Thomas Cross Whites the president. I call him my CBD dad because every product that I can get from him, I’m handing them out to friends with autistic children even. And they’d call me two weeks later and say, you know what? I rolled my eyes when you gave me this, but I have a whole new child because of you. My child’s actually doing homework. I’m not having these outbursts anymore. My child actually listened to me and had a conversation with me and those make it feel like my purpose is fulfilled. And that was the second thing, it’s finding a purpose. When you become chronically sick, the first thing to adjust is your own attitude and I said, okay, I’m going to be positive. I’m going to be joyful. I’m going to show hope.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
The second thing to keep you going is you have to find a purpose. And my new purpose was to share my story, share the medications that helped me, share my experiences on different ways to find your healing journey and trying to help others to find their own healing journey with whatever feels right for their own body. And that’s been huge for me. I run a lot of groups as well on MRI poisoning and it’s very rare.
Tim Pickett:
Really, really rare. I’ve never ran really into anybody in the years that I’ve been in medicine, certainly haven’t run into anybody with that diagnosis.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Correct. Rare enough gadolinium deposition disease or gadolinium toxicities, what it’s called. And again, most people that are healthy can spit it out. But in my case it was just a perfect storm. Or I could have just already been broken from the encephalitis that by the time I got the injections from the MRI, my body was just like, nope, I’m done this isn’t this isn’t helping. So yeah, it’s a fascinating healing journey, but I’m still on it and I’m not going to give up. And even though I’ve been real disabled, I’m still aiming to be able to return to work someday if possible, if my healing can be made enough that I can cope being with the sitting down at a computer and working again, I miss my job. I really do miss being productive. But at the same time, this has been a great opportunity to be a stay-at-home mom. And I’ll take that too.
Tim Pickett:
What’s your favorite product? Do you have a favorite product here in Utah?
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Yeah, definitely. So the CBD product is Dr. Monroe’s CBD Emporium. It’s here in Orem and their CBD tinctures gummies. And they’re probably the yummiest tinctures I’ve had. The second dispensaries that I go to is Pure Utah and I go to Desert Wellness in Provo. And the first year that our dispensaries opened, I was a little disappointed in some of the products, but I am very impressed now. I recently found the bujaBoojum pills and some mints that are two and a half milligrams, the exact dosage that I need to just get that pain and edge off are now sold in simple capsules for a price that actually feels reasonable. So it’s been really cool to watch our dispensaries grow in inventory.
Tim Pickett:
Not a lot of low-dose products out there for patients who want a standardized dosing. There seems to be a growing number of high dose products. You can buy a hundred milligram metabolic and you just have to cut that thing up too much to make it useful.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
When I went to San Diego last year and I bought a package of gummies and I didn’t pay attention to it, for some reason I saw a couple of zeros. I’m like, okay, it must be a hundred milligram. You see them as 10 milligrams. No, I had bought a package of a thousand milligram, 10 gummies. They’re a hundred milligrams each and they’re peach rings. And I had failed to notice that when I took a peach ring thinking it was 10 and that was quite the experience. I probably laid on the beach for 12 hours just going, wow, the world is lovely. I’m actually so fascinated. If my dose of THC is too high, it actually makes me hyper-aware of my pain. So strangely enough, I actually have to stay low dose on the THC.
Tim Pickett:
I’m not surprised actually.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Yeah. I become a little hyper-sensitive to the way that I feel and that’s not the greatest feeling.
Tim Pickett:
No, I’m sure it’s not.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
That was my only mistake because yes, double-check your dosage. Don’t pop a hundred-milligram peach ring.
Tim Pickett:
Yes. Truth in advertising, right? And making sure you read the label. Is there something about the Utah program that you’d like to see changed?
Vanessa Kyrobie:
I have only felt a little bit sad towards my friends who wanted to grow their own cannabis, even though we’re not quite the climate for it. I do know that there’s hemp growers that are successful here. And if there was a change, it would be to allow people to be able to grow this medication. The cost of flowerI think is absolutely ridiculous. When you’re looking at 300 to $400 for an ounce of flower, I mean, come on, you’re growing a plant and up-charging that right way too much. I would like to see flower to either be more accessible or to allow people to grow their own flower. If I do use flower, it’s very rarely I have my own vaporizer for it because my lungs have struggled a lot. I grew up next to Geneva Steel. Strangely enough, I breathed in all of those black particles from Geneva Steel.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
And even though I’ve never smoked a cigarette in my life, I’m on watch for cancer because I have all these black spots in my lungs. They call it miner’s lung, typically miners get it for mining coal. I got it simply because I grew up next to Geneva Steel breathing in all of that stuff. So to smoke or vape, anything into my lungs hurts really bad. So I watch for that. But I have other friends that are patients that’s the only way that their body can tolerate it the best is using flower. So I would hope that the program would eventually make flower a more decent price. Or let us grow our own.
Tim Pickett:
Sure. Well, Vanessa, this has been one of the most fascinating conversations that I’ve had on this podcast. I am so glad you reached out and we got connected.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
I appreciate it.
Tim Pickett:
Or we reached out to you and got connected with you and your story. Just phenomenal that you are where you are today.
Vanessa Kyrobie:
Thank you. I worked really hard to get here. But yeah, like I said, I love sharing my story. So thank you for having me on this.
Tim Pickett:
Yep. Keep it up. For those of you that are not subscribed to the podcast, Utah In The Weeds, subscribe on any podcast player that you have access to. And Vanessa Kyrobie, thanks again. Everybody stay safe out there.
The 100th episode of Utah in the Weeds features a candid conversation with TV host Big Budah. Budah talked about his use of Medical Cannabis to treat chronic pain and sleep issues.
Transcript coming soon.
We have been fairly vocal about our desire to see the list of qualifying conditions in Utah expanded. We’ve been particularly interested in Medical Cannabis as a treatment for acute pain. Well, we have good news to report – lawmakers approved a bill during this past session that now qualifies some forms of acute pain for Cannabis treatment.
The bill in question is SB195 Medical Cannabis Access Amendments sponsored by Sen. Luz Escamilla and Rep. Raymond Ward. Thanks to their hard work and an affirmative vote in both legislative houses, the bill is now law. Patients expecting to experience some types of acute pain can apply for a temporary Medical Cannabis card allowing them to treat their pain with Medical Cannabis.
The specific section of the bill outlining the qualifying conditions expansion is 26–61a–104 Qualifying condition. It states the following, in relation to pain expected to last more than two weeks:
“Pain that is expected to last for two weeks or longer for an acute condition, including a surgical procedure, for which a medical professional may generally prescribe opioids for a limited duration, subject to Subsection 26-61a-201(5)(c).”
Other types of acute pain might also be eligible, though additional language in the law suggests they would need to be approved by the Compassionate Use Board. Chronic pain is already a qualifying condition.
The law is still new enough that it will take some time to figure everything out. The important thing is that state lawmakers have recognized that certain situations involving acute pain are better handled with Medical Cannabis than opioid painkillers. We consider this a big deal.
The change is a big deal for a lot of reasons, not the least of which are the many stories we have heard from patients. Our very own Tim Pickett has heard plenty of stories (on the Utah in the Weeds podcast) of patients who switched to Medical Cannabis after deciding opioids were bad news for them.
Opioids have their place in modern medicine. But we already know they are highly addictive. We also know that not everyone tolerates them well. Medical Cannabis is another option for managing acute pain. Our state lawmakers have acknowledged as much in expanding the qualifying conditions list to include acute pain.
So what does all of this mean to you? It means you might have another choice. However, you and your medical provider have to figure out whether your acute pain qualifies for Medical Cannabis. The best advice we can offer is that you talk things over with your medical provider as soon as possible.
If you are planning to have surgery, it is important to have the discussion sooner rather than later. Your primary care physician or surgeon may not be registered as a Qualified Medical Provider (QMP) in Utah. If either one is willing, they could still recommend Medical Cannabis as a Limited Medical Provider (LMP).
There are restrictions to the LMP program. Your medical provider can learn what these are by visiting the state’s Medical Cannabis website. In the meantime, take heart in knowing that some types of acute pain will soon qualify for Medical Cannabis treatment.
Utah’s program keeps getting better. Thanks to attentive lawmakers who earnestly want to improve access to Medical Cannabis, they are crafting rules designed to do just that. We think adding acute pain to the qualifying conditions was the right move for lawmakers.
Episode 99 of Utah in the Weeds is the second in a two-part discussion with canna-therapist Clifton Uckerman. Clif has quite an interesting life story, and his background has helped to enrich his occupation as a cannabis-affirming therapist.
Tim Pickett:
Welcome everyone out to episode 99 of Utah in the Weeds. My name is Tim Pickett and I’m so excited. We’re coming up on episode 100 next week. I’m going to do it. Today is the second half of the interview and discussion that I had with Clifton Uckerman. He is a licensed clinical therapist and if you are not subscribed, go ahead and subscribe so you can go back and find last week’s episode and start it from the beginning, understand Cliff’s story. Where he comes from, where he’s headed, what he has lived through with really surrounding drug use and his family and his personal experiences and how he is developing that into a treatment for the shame molecule, as he calls it. And today, we get into that a little bit and prime that discussion for future episodes and future discussions. Very great conversation with Cliff today.
Tim Pickett:
From a housekeeping perspective, join me at Utah Cann, the third annual business conference and consumer expo utahcann.com, that’s U-T-A-H-C-A-N-N.com. It is May 13th and 14th, next Friday and Saturday, at the Utah State Fair Park. You can get your tickets today. You can search our social media at utahmarijuana.org. We’ll have info about those tickets. And I’m really excited to go down there. There’s a lot of panels. We have our own staff. Melissa Reid will be on the panel. We have, I believe Amber Stachitus is speaking about women and cannabis. And Cliff, of course, will be there. And I will be there. We’ll try to record down there as well like we did on 4/20 if you haven’t listened to that episode, that’s fun. That was a couple of weeks ago. Just exciting things as we’re getting out into the open again and the world is opening back up.
Tim Pickett:
So enjoy this episode and looking forward to coming to you next week with episode 100. Stay tuned. Enjoy.
Tim Pickett:
When did you start practicing? Right after you got your masters and licensing?
Clifton Uckerman:
Yeah. 2011. I worked at Odyssey House.
Tim Pickett:
Wow. Why wouldn’t you? You grew up here?
Clifton Uckerman:
Right. My dad was in Odyssey House for a little bit.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Clifton Uckerman:
Just for a little bit before he got kicked out.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. So I mean, yeah, you’re really just literally giving back to the community that you were raised in.
Clifton Uckerman:
Mm-hmm. And then from there, I just love … It’s not like I love being in charge or love to lead. It’s just that those tend to be the positions that I gravitate towards or that call for me. So from there, I just have been in leadership administrative management positions. Still doing direct service but helping with organizational growth, helping organizational culture change, with improving and enhancing service delivery systems with increasing the volume. And aiding in the retention of clients and building communities. Any organization that I’ve ever been at or helped to either start or improve, it seems to be that my energy and passion and the teams that I get to work with and build and create, bring things to life a little bit.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Okay. So question now is, and partly because this is a cannabis podcast, is you left cannabis behind because it was bad.
Clifton Uckerman:
Hated it.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. And it was-
Clifton Uckerman:
[inaudible 00:04:30].
Tim Pickett:
… part of the story of all the negative things that were happening to you as a child.
Clifton Uckerman:
Well plus I ended up with cannabis-induced psychosis when I was about 18. So I remember calling the cops on myself and hearing lots of voices thinking people were trying to kill me and hearing a lot of different things inside of my brain. And the cops came one night and they said, “Oh, we’re dealing with a 51-50.” And I turned my back on them and went into my home, literally. And they just left.
Tim Pickett:
They were like, “Oh, he’ll be fine.”
Clifton Uckerman:
Yeah. But I did smoke. I smoked a lot of weed from 12 to 18 until I had the psychotic episode. And I got scared. And then I really hated it because I associated it with all of the turmoil and destruction that was happening in my world, in my life, and with my family but-
Tim Pickett:
So you were anti-cannabis with the people you were around as well?
Clifton Uckerman:
Yeah. Or I just avoided it all together. And still, a lot of my friends and family still use. I mean my brother, before he died, he had diabetes and glaucoma because of the diabetes and he went blind for a good year. And when he really took up using marijuana, his vision came back. Not all the way but partially. And so for up until he died, he could still drive and get himself around and go shopping and watch TV. But before that, he could not see anything at all. He was completely blind.
Tim Pickett:
Wow. When did it come back to you or … So you’re 18. You have this event. You associate cannabis with a lot of these negative things that have happened. You hate it.
Clifton Uckerman:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
And you become … Did you get all the way through your masters program-
Clifton Uckerman:
Without.
Tim Pickett:
… without cannabis? You’re hating it clear through then?
Clifton Uckerman:
No. I think in my mid-20s and early 30s, I started to come back to it a little bit more. I was really afraid of it because I didn’t want the paranoia, I didn’t want the voices, I didn’t want the psychosis.
Tim Pickett:
Well that makes it both negative. So not only is the stigma and the association negative, but the experience was negative too. So it really … I mean I wouldn’t have been surprised if you’d never come back to it.
Clifton Uckerman:
Right, yeah. I think for me, it’s more of a social justice matter. Because still, if all my friends and all my family are going to use it then there’s got to be benefit and value to it. And I really am not happy with the existing and the historical criminalization that happens. Not happy with people that get arrested and charged.
Clifton Uckerman:
Here’s where I think that now that I’m thinking about it. The turning point was when I was running the CATS program, the addiction treatment program in the Old County Jail. One of the earlier jobs that I had out of my masters program. And I was working with two pods, 67 guys on one side, 56 guys on the other side, running addiction treatment services in each of those little communities. Community-based, community model, community therapeutic model. And so many of them were being violated. They would leave the jail, they completed their addiction treatment program, they got their certificate. Two weeks later, they were right back. And my question was, “What the hell? What are you …” “Because I got violated.” “Violated for what?” “A dirty drug test.”
Tim Pickett:
A dirty drug test.
Clifton Uckerman:
“For what?”
Tim Pickett:
I peed dirty.
Clifton Uckerman:
“For bud, for smoking bud. And it was a violation.” So I would say, when I worked there, 80 percent of the guys in there were actually only back in there because of a violation.
Tim Pickett:
So they would come in, they knew the whole program, they were stellar residents.
Clifton Uckerman:
Residents, yeah.
Tim Pickett:
They were stellar residents, they knew all the rules. They did their thing. They got out. And then …
Clifton Uckerman:
The other problem there is a lot of them would come in with opiate addictions, heroin addictions. And this is the height of the opioid epidemic, 2015, 2016. So they would come in, their tolerance would go down because now they’re locked up and they’re not using anymore. And a lot of times, if they can get out and just use marijuana, that helps-
Tim Pickett:
Deal [inaudible 00:09:18]-
Clifton Uckerman:
… delay the urges, cravings, and impulses. That can extend their sobriety. That can help them manage their urges, cravings to use. And so … But what happens is because they can’t use marijuana, then they’re right back to heroin. And because their tolerance is low, they die and overdose.
Clifton Uckerman:
And so although a lot of them are coming back for violations, a lot that were on heroin coming in, ended up dying when they got out because they went back to using and didn’t have any buffer, didn’t have any [inaudible 00:09:49], didn’t have anything else as a medicine or a medication that they could use to extend their lives and delay return to use of more iris drugs.
Tim Pickett:
Do you think there’s something to being able to self-dose cannabis compared to other medications? You talk about people getting out of an institutional treatment setting and not really having access to self-dose medications. They’re on a few medications probably that are prescribed. And if they run out, they’ve got to get a visit, they’ve got to go in, they’ve got to go through some hoops to get that back. And on the other hand, you also have this … You can’t dose an anti-depressant or another drug. You just get what you get. You can’t take more on a bad day, less on a good day. Less if you got to go to work. I think there’s something to having a sense of control.
Clifton Uckerman:
Right. Well that … So there’s another angle to this too which is there’s an over representation of minorities in the criminal justice system, people of color, right? So if people from communities of color, if they have better and greater access to marijuana but less and more restrictive access to traditional, mainstream psychiatry and other things like that, then what’s going to happen is they’re going to get out, they don’t have the access. A lot of times, they get disqualified. Like I get really angry when people of color go into the doctor, go in for a visit, and they get turned away. Or they don’t get the help. Or they get forced on something that really isn’t what they’re asking for or needing. And that happens a lot.
Tim Pickett:
It still happens. For people who don’t believe in it, we study it in med school that it still happens. It’s embedded. There’s no other way to describe why it happens. It’s just embedded.
Clifton Uckerman:
I think there is an implicit bias though with historical, in a white society, an implicit bias, people of color come in and we tend to look at them as crazy, impoverished, poverty-mindset, entitled, and med-seeking and an addict. And they just want what they want and we’re not going to let them have their way.
Tim Pickett:
Right, we know better.
Clifton Uckerman:
So I think for somebody, especially people coming from communities of color, I think it’s important that whatever they have access to already, let’s build on the strength of that.
Clifton Uckerman:
And then my deal was, in the last couple of years, especially with the legalization of medical marijuana, was if they are already accessing that and subscribing to it and there is some key benefit or value to it, let’s legitimize it and then help them get off the streets and away from synthetics and into a medical program where they can be educated on dosing and not getting in trouble for it or get violated or go back to jail because they have a history of charges with that medicine, with that substance.
Tim Pickett:
Going to turn it on their head. Basically, use the anti-system to fix the system.
Clifton Uckerman:
Yeah. And now, if they have choice and freedom over what they’re dosing and how they’re dosing, a lot of times … So it’s kind of a manipulation that I use in therapy. But if I can help them divert their attention from alcohol and other drugs that carry greater risks and are more lethal, especially when combined and interacting with each other, and I can use little therapeutic strategies to divert their attention away from that. And divert their attention to medical cannabis and going through the process and getting a card and in the dispensary, now, they’re distracted by something that they actually feel like they have a little bit of choice and control and that they get to trial and error with and experiment and they’re not going to die. They might get a little high. They might have a little bit of anxiety. But guess what? They can always come back in and talk to me, or you, about it.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Clifton Uckerman:
And we just integrate the experience and then we help them learn how to continually improve.
Tim Pickett:
Shit. You might have cracked the code. Let me distract you. Here’s something that’s really cool, right?
Clifton Uckerman:
No. But it’s bringing something that, to me, is kind of a logical algorithmic approach to a certain set of behavioral issues that you got to work through. Because primarily, to me, I always look at time. You need time. You need this person to get more time away from the substance they’re addicted to or using or the situation or the thought breakdown. You need time. Because time will heal the body and the brain itself. Different experiences are used as adjunct therapy and different thought process, you usually can teach people. But that all requires time and distraction gives you that time. That’s cool.
Tim Pickett:
If you get them distracted for a month or two on this little pathway that they’re trying to figure things out and trial and error and experiment with, there’s your time. Not only do you get the time and you distract them, but like you say, you’ve distracted them with something that is, they have some control over or they’re going to learn that they have control over it. And it might even be beneficial.
Clifton Uckerman:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
Right?
Clifton Uckerman:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
Because of the way cannabis works on the brain, we definitely know it can open up new thought pathways. It can let people deal with things. Talk a little bit about that, how you’ve really in Utah, pioneered this, in my opinion. But utilizing cannabis in therapy.
Clifton Uckerman:
It’s different for everybody because every patient is in a different place in their relationship with the medicine. And at a different point in time in their life from one to the next. And so some examples are, so right now, with the way that the laws are, with the medical cannabis program, PTSD is the only qualifying condition. Now there’s a lot of people out there that are advocating for every other mental health issue to be a part of that qualifying condition. But if you think about it, every other mental health condition, you could probably attribute to some kind of trauma. And you could probably tie that trauma to a diagnosis of PTSD. So I’m happy that PTSD is the only qualifying condition right now. We can focus on that and learn how to work with it and around it. And when we don’t have to spend our time and energy on trying to lobby and advocate for every other mental health stuff.
Tim Pickett:
No. We just need to talk to people and get to the bottom of their issue.
Clifton Uckerman:
Trauma.
Tim Pickett:
And their trauma.
Clifton Uckerman:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Clifton Uckerman:
Because what I say is, the next five or ten years, the DSN will really take a better look at generational trauma, gender trauma, religious trauma, racial trauma, and a lot of this mental health stuff, all these mental health conditions will be trauma-oriented or focused on the trauma.
Clifton Uckerman:
So in therapy, what we do is we treat the PTSD. So the easy explanation is, so the trauma, the negative life-impacting experience that contributes to the detrimental development … Detrimental development is all that cognitive errors and thinking cognitive flaws, the negative, self-defeating thoughts that I begin to have the intrusive voice as those negative faults, beliefs. The detrimental development is something happens in my life, especially when I’m young, like zero to 15-years-old. I’m a really selfish kid. I come out of the womb designed to be that way. Because if I’m not selfish, if the world doesn’t revolve around me and I’m not the center of everyone’s universe, I won’t get clothed, fed, bathed, sheltered. So a kid is really selfish and designed that way and appropriately so.
Clifton Uckerman:
So the earlier the traumas, whatever kind of trauma it is, the more detrimental development is going to occur. And that detrimental development, the way that that kid internalizes the trauma, is the way that they see that when the world revolves around them and they’re the center of the universe is, “Oh my gosh, I did something to cause this. It’s my fault. I’m to blame. I’m bad. I’m no good. I’m unlovable. Nobody loves me. I might as well just go kill myself.” That’s trauma.
Clifton Uckerman:
So what happens is that trauma gets imprinted into … It gets mind-stemmed into the earlier parts of the developing brain which later on become the mid or the hind part of the brain, the cerebellum, the amygdala. And in that little trauma stamp inside of the brain, the only way for it to become a memory and stay there is for it to embed, to be embedded in it, the shame molecule. And that shame molecule is what gets triggered as we get older in the rest of our lives which tells us, “Uh oh, avoid this. Stay away from it. It’s too painful. You don’t want to go through this again.”
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, but it’s stored and I see … So this is a good map-making explanation of it because it becomes the emotional part of the brain, the amygdala, where you don’t … You have a hard time articulating what that looks like. You have to learn how to articulate it from a feelings standpoint and what you feel like. But it is super effective and it is the only part of the brain that’s still alive in fight or flight situations, right?
Clifton Uckerman:
Yes, yes.
Tim Pickett:
You don’t use your frontal lobe.
Clifton Uckerman:
No.
Tim Pickett:
And it creates callused connections to the frontal lobe where it knows it can get its signal across. And a lot of times, those are … They’re terrible connections because they just put you back into the negative spiral.
Clifton Uckerman:
That’s what we call the short-circuiting. It’s short-circuited, right?
Tim Pickett:
Yep.
Clifton Uckerman:
Which is why we react so instantly and react so heavy and react so negatively to some things that had those traumas not been there, we probably wouldn’t even be perceiving it in that kind of way.
Tim Pickett:
No. It’s not logical. If you were able to step back, and people with PTSD from specific traumatic events, once they’re able to step back and get that perspective on what happened at the time, that’s part of the process of healing, right?
Clifton Uckerman:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
And what’s interesting about cannabis, is it softens those short-circuit connections.
Clifton Uckerman:
It softens it. It uses your endocannabinoid system and those EC receptors to open things up. Think about it. You have all those endocannabinoid receptors in your central nervous system, in your immune system. So if my central nervous system is hijacked and my brain is short-circuited and I have this trauma with the shame molecule, then the cannabis is going to come in, open things up, decompress, and soften things out. Give me time to really think about things and talk about things. If I feel safe enough with the therapist that I’m with, I unwrap the trauma memory because it’s holding onto that shame molecule pretty tight. And once I unwrap or unpack the trauma memory, I can release and relinquish the shame molecule.
Clifton Uckerman:
And a lot of times, the shame molecule comes out in tears. A lot of emotional expression. It’s very painful. That’s why people avoid it and they don’t want to talk about it. But it has to come out in the tears because the tears are what carry the shame molecule out of the system, out of the brain and out of the body. And the cannabis helps people to get there. And once you do the education, then they can dose and go down that road, talk about the trauma, release the shame molecule, have a really good cry, and begin to feel better.
Clifton Uckerman:
There’s a chemical reaction that takes place. So when I cry, and I’ve just done some trauma-focused work, the oxytocin levels rise in my brain. And what the oxytocin wants to do is go in and prune all of those old neurons that was storing all of that old, negative psyche. Energy that shame molecule so it begins the pruning process and it helps with neurogenesis so I can begin to establish new neural pathways inside of my brain but the only thing that’s going to help me develop new neural pathways inside my brain is sitting there having a conversation with somebody that finally, in the first time in my life, shows me that they care enough to listen and understand and hear me and empathize with me so I can get this stuff out without judgment. And so now, I’m going through memory reconsolidation and my oxytocin levels are pruning. I’m going through neurogenesis, neural pathways are happening inside of my brain.
Clifton Uckerman:
This can cause a lot of anxiety for a person because it’s new and it’s fearful because it’s unknown. And so after a really good session, even with the relief of a really good cry and releasing all of that shame molecule, anxiety increases, anxiety disrupts sleep patterns. And so the patient will probably want to dose to manage the anxiety and to get good sleep and prepare coming back to the next session so they can continue that process of doing trauma-focused work.
Tim Pickett:
When did you figure this out?
Clifton Uckerman:
The years that I’ve been working with people, all the research and studying that I’ve been doing. But there’s an algorithm so I’ve worked with probably … Oh gosh, at least 8000 or more people by now. And when I listen intently and I’m trying to understand and I’m really thinking deeply about what they’re going through and what they’ve been through and I compare that from one patient to the next, there’s a pattern. There’s an algorithm. Right?
Tim Pickett:
Yep.
Clifton Uckerman:
And-
Tim Pickett:
We are animals. We’re all human.
Clifton Uckerman:
We’re all human.
Tim Pickett:
And we tend to repeat, the behaviors repeat, the stories repeat. Different details, same story.
Clifton Uckerman:
And with all the literature and all the research from a lot of different disciplines. Like I’m very eclectic and so I pull from the medical model. I pull from psychiatry. I pull from neuropsychotherapy. I pull from epigenetics. I pull from a lot of different theories of mind that exist in different disciplines. That’s what I like about social work is that’s, I think, the training of a social worker is we’re trained to pull from everything, lots of different things, and then we put it all together and make the connections and say, “Gosh. All of this body of knowledge from all these different disciplines. If we can bring that together and really understand how it’s all connected …” That’s what I’ve been able to do to help people more.
Tim Pickett:
Feels like we’re on the cusp of really accepting this locally, especially. And I don’t know of other programs that are like this, that are like yours. U’s really opening up to the idea, even, even really just opening up to the idea, that cannabis can be used as a therapeutic tool. I think there is some … We have these conversations. There’s discussions about cannabis and psilocybin use in spiritual, religious experiences. But I don’t … I’ve never, until I met you and this cannabis-affirming therapy, I didn’t really know anybody who was utilizing it specifically as a way to help people release, really. Right?
Clifton Uckerman:
Right, right.
Tim Pickett:
And I’m really excited about it.
Clifton Uckerman:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
What I like about it is it fits a logical pattern for my medically-trained brain.
Clifton Uckerman:
There’s a formula.
Tim Pickett:
There is a formula. There’s an algorithm. There’s a formula. It makes sense to me. There’s not a lot of hocus pocus. And so I feel like it can be something that the medical community can actually get behind. Especially because it’s guided by a trained professional. We trust you in the traditional, synthetic medical society, we trust the therapist. Because you’re trained. You’re trained in our same system. And we, I mean it seems like, doctors need that trust. It’s just so important, the legitimacy. So I see this type of program really … I don’t know. I feel like it can find the legitimacy. And then you go back to your history and your story growing up and your credential now. And now you’re involved in teaching people at the University of Utah which offers a lot. And the credibility. You’ve had the credibility to get the position at the U. You have to have credibility. You have to have … You can’t just have one piece of the puzzle. You got to have the whole thing done.
Clifton Uckerman:
Yeah. I did my Colloquium and in my presentation to the school, the College of Social Work, my last slide is, “And if you accept me, my current study, my current field of study is treating PTSD in conjunction with medical cannabis from the lens of a trauma-focused and of an approach in consideration of generational trauma, racial trauma, historical trauma.” All that kind of stuff. And so that was out there on the table.
Clifton Uckerman:
My first day, the other day, going in there to get some of my books for the summer semester, one of the first people that came to me and said congratulations said, “And I love that you affirm medical cannabis because I am a medical cannabis patient too.” And I think now the door’s opening and people are talking about it and we get to do more education. We get to maybe think about finding ways to get support to invite that into curriculum and bringing that back into the community. And do you know what I love about this industry is that it’s inclusive of everybody. And we all get to talk about it.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I love this community. It’s been really fun. The people on all sides from the physicians and the PAs and MPs to the therapists and clear to the growers and the processors, the people who use it, patients. And it really is all about the people who utilize the plant. I mean what it all comes down to it, we all essentially work for the same thing.
Clifton Uckerman:
We’re all connected.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, we’re all connecting.
Clifton Uckerman:
To the same thing.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I’ve found it a really fun and rewarding place to work. It seems like there’s only good people, almost. I’m sure we’ll find a couple of bad eggs.
Clifton Uckerman:
Here and there.
Tim Pickett:
Here and there.
Clifton Uckerman:
Some are malleable. Some are changing.
Tim Pickett:
They just need a little session. They just need to have a good cry.
Clifton Uckerman:
A little bit of love.
Tim Pickett:
I’ve heard you say that to a few … Just need a good cry. Release that shame molecule. What have we missed for the first two episodes that we’re working on together?
Clifton Uckerman:
So you and I have … So first of all, I can’t let this opportunity go by without thanking you and appreciating you, Mr. Tim Pickett. I still have on my phone, I keep your first voicemail that you ever sent me.
Tim Pickett:
Really?
Clifton Uckerman:
[inaudible 00:31:06]. I just want to see if it will. I don’t know if it will here in the studio. But it was 4/18, oh my gosh, of 2020.
Tim Pickett:
4/18. So almost two years ago, day before my birthday. We’re about to come up on that … record.
Tim Pickett:
[inaudible 00:31:28] giving you a call. I thought to entertain how we could work together because PTSD is one of the very interesting qualifications for medical cannabis and I think anxiety is a reasonable option as well for patients who want to navigate the Compassionate Use Board. But I would need a little bit of help from somebody like yourself. And I think there’s ways we could work together. So go ahead and give me a call back any time. I think Monday might be best. [inaudible 00:32:04].
Tim Pickett:
I got a lot to say.
Clifton Uckerman:
But I keep that in my voicemail because I think that was the pivotal moment of being able to get to where we are right now.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, wow. That’s a while ago. It feels like a lifetime ago.
Clifton Uckerman:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
I mean April 18th, the first dispensary had opened, Dragonfly was opening. The phone was ringing off the hook. I didn’t know what the hell I was doing. We were just trying to see as many people as we could and navigate the system. And I didn’t know anything about PTSD. I’m glad we connected, no question. It’s been fun because the programs that you worked on and everything that I’ve learned about you has always … You have a very impressive resume. Your history is just phenomenal. You cannot overstate the value of what you’ve been through, what you’ve learned. So for me, working with somebody like you is just a way to help a lot of people. Which like we said, in the very beginning, you help people and that’s what makes business do well. And then your business does well, you can help more people.
Clifton Uckerman:
Right. Much appreciation too. I think one of the things that we got to talk about is get more into the shame molecule and neuroscience and that formula. I’d love to really share that formula and really help patients understand what they’re going to get when they sign up for trauma-focused therapy when we’re using medical cannabis in conjunction with that. And what the outcome is that we can achieve together. And usually, it’s life-changing.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. And I’m sure I’ve got some, hopefully, some things I can add to that. We can really get into that. So let’s do another couple of sessions and talk all about the science and the approach and what it’s like for people, what that experience is like for people. I’m excited.
Clifton Uckerman:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
So to wrap this piece up, I’m Tim Pickett, host of Utah in the Weeds. Clifton Uckerman, Medical Director of the Behavioral Health Program at Utah Therapeutic Health Center. If you have any questions, 801-851-5554 is our phone number. Utahmarijuana.org. You can find us both there. You can find access to Behavioral Health Therapy, therapists, that are really cannabis-affirming. Is that the-
Clifton Uckerman:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
That’s a good term for that?
Clifton Uckerman:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
And can help also. That program, from a therapy standpoint, Cliff, almost all insurances your paneled on for the behavioral and health therapy sessions?
Clifton Uckerman:
Yes, yes.
Tim Pickett:
So this is a great way for people to get access into the medical cannabis program and get help and for a copay, right?
Clifton Uckerman:
Yep.
Tim Pickett:
Get the help they need.
Clifton Uckerman:
Yep.
Tim Pickett:
We can talk all about that, too.
Clifton Uckerman:
Yes.
Tim Pickett:
That’s like an entire episode, how we’re working within and outside the system in a really legal way. And to help people navigate this whole thing, I think that’s a whole nother conversation that I’m excited to have later.
Clifton Uckerman:
Yes.
Tim Pickett:
But anyway, utahmarijuana.org, Utah in the Weeds, subscribe and stay safe out there.
Clifton Uckerman:
Thanks, everybody.
Episode 98 of Utah in the Weeds is the first in a two-part discussion with canna-therapist Clifton Uckerman. Clif has quite an interesting life story, and his background has helped to enrich his occupation as a cannabis-affirming therapist.
Tim and Clif started with a discussion of the challenges of being both a cannabis user and a parent. [03:40]
Then they talked about some of Clif’s recent career developments before going back to the beginning of Clif’s history with cannabis. Clif says he’s been around cannabis for his entire life because his father was a “well-known” cannabis dealer in western Salt Lake County. Clif says his dad began to deal cocaine as that drug became popular. in the 70s and 80s. Clif’s father was shot to death in 1997. [07:30]
Clif told us about an experience in junior high in which he was caught with cannabis and his father’s handgun at Westlake Jr. High. He says he spent most of his teenage years “in the system” as a juvenile delinquent and eventually wound up as part of a gang. He says, at the time, he didn’t imagine his life would last beyond the age of 18. [18:30]
Around the time he turned 18, Clif became involved in a community program, “YouthWorks,” which helped him find mentors and turn his life around. He says he returned to the program in a paid position as a peer leader, and eventually became the program’s director. Meanwhile, he got his bachelor’s degree and received heavy encouragement to get a master’s degree. [29:00]
Clif briefly considered a career in law enforcement but decided to pursue social work as a way of giving back to his community. [36:26]
Tim Pickett:
Welcome everybody to episode 98, bearing down on 100 here, 98 of Utah in the Weeds. My name is Tim Pickett. I am the host. And today’s episode is a two part, the start of a two part discussion with Clifton Uckerman. Clif is an LCSW and now the first Latinx professor at the University of Utah. He recently accepted a position there. He is part of Utah Therapeutic Health Center and has brought his entire practice and his expertise in history into canna therapy and discussing some of this shame molecule.
Tim Pickett:
Today’s episode is the beginning, like I say, of a two part discussion. We go through some of Clif’s history. Clif is a local Utahn and you’re going to want to hear about Clif’s history, his upbringing, his experience with the cannabis plant, and his family. You’ll understand a little bit about his drive to make this something, to make this program something that works to make people … to help people be okay and really help them through their trauma. And if that includes canna therapy and cannabis based therapy or help with the cannabis plant and de-stigmatizing that, you’ll enjoy some of this conversation. Clif’s become a good friend of mine and somebody that I trust to take care of people. I think Utah is just lucky to have somebody like him around.
Tim Pickett:
From a housekeeping perspective, it’s May. And like I said, we’re bearing down on episode 100. We’ve got some special things planned for May. Stay subscribed to Utah in the Weeds. If you need updates for medical cannabis, go to utahmarijuana.org. We’ve got updates. We’ve got education at Discover Marijuana on YouTube. And we continue to drive people through the uplift program, our subsidy program. If you know somebody with Medicaid or terminally ill, encourage them to apply. We have ways for them to get their evaluation and discounts at the pharmacy through that subsidy program. Lots of partners, Beehive Pharmacy, Deseret Wellness, Zion Medicinal, Wholesome, Perfect Earth, and True North joined. We hope to be adding more partners through that program this month as well. Curaleaf is now going to be on board and Bloc Pharmacy with Justice Cannabis is on board as well.
Tim Pickett:
We’re helping people get through, and if you can’t get through immediately and you need behavioral health therapy, we talk a little bit about that in this episode, but utahmarijuana.org/uplift is the place to go to find out more about that great program. It’s something that Clif and I are working on together. We’re just trying to give back to the community there and help the people of Utah find access to cannabis when they need it.
Tim Pickett:
Enjoy this episode, everybody. I’m looking outside. It’s a beautiful day. Go outside, walk your dog, get out and enjoy this beautiful weather.
Tim Pickett:
Do you drink alcohol?
Clifton Uckerman:
Sometimes.
Tim Pickett:
I’ve been drinking a little more since COVID, but I’ve been having this kind of issue with my thought process around alcohol versus cannabis, and my kids. Remember when we were in the panel and Desiree got asked a question, and then she said, “I smoked weed.” And then, “Oh, my kid’s in the room.”
Clifton Uckerman:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
I wanted so bad to stop everybody and say, “Okay, listen.” That goes to show you that even us in this room, the literal people who are trying to de-stigmatize cannabis, can’t even sit up here on a panel and not worry about our own kids seeing us or knowing that we’re smoking weed.
Clifton Uckerman:
That shame molecule. We still carry shame and it’s embedded.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. How the fuck are we going to get rid of that? My father-in-law goes to my sister-in-law’s house and is yelling downstairs and the junior high kid’s in the kitchen and he’s yelling downstairs, “Hey, Brandon. How much of this gummy should I be taking?” And his daughter just ripped him a new asshole. She was so pissed off because he’s talking about something that … And I talked to my wife about this this morning and I said, but she said, “That’s none of anybody’s business.” And I said… I’d go in and I’d say ibuprofen. And I would say, “Well, honey, how much of this ibuprofen should I take?”
Clifton Uckerman:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
And that’s okay.
Clifton Uckerman:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
But cannabis isn’t like that.
Clifton Uckerman:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
Why is that? Really, it’s the shame molecule that’s embedded when we’re young.
Clifton Uckerman:
Yeah. I mean, think about it. I mean, the war on drugs started in the ’70s, maybe the ’60s. So we’re talking, I mean, it’s 2022. So we’re thinking 40 plus 20, that’s 60 years in the making of it being criminalized, penalized, punished, shamed, so generations.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Clifton Uckerman:
That is bad. And if you are associated with it, you are a bad person. Don’t talk about it.
Tim Pickett:
Don’t talk about it. Don’t do anything. Even when we’ve come so far that I literally do this for a living. And we still have this in the back. I mean, I’ll pour a drink. I’ve said it on the podcast. I’ll pour a drink in front of my kids, no problem. But won’t consume cannabis in front of my kids.
Clifton Uckerman:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
I know it will change over time.
Clifton Uckerman:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
And I guess the answer is time is the only… Time, and then repeating. I mean, what do we do?
Clifton Uckerman:
Time and people that can make the change. I mean, time goes on, but it’s the people in that time or within that time, like you or me that can… Or anybody else that’s willing to take that risk, have that courage and be open and honest and transparent and forthcoming about it. If I have asthma and I have my children or my child in front of me in the same room and I’m having asthma attack, I’m going to take my inhaler and use my inhaler in front of them. I’m not going to keep it secret and go into the bathroom to use my inhaler.
Tim Pickett:
No, of course not. But we do still associate with cannabis with both the recreational side, the medicinal side. We’re using it for both, now. Hmm. Anyway. Okay. Well back to basics.
Clifton Uckerman:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
I kind of imagine this as… I mean, let me introduce Clifton Uckerman. You’ve never been on the podcast before.
Clifton Uckerman:
Never.
Tim Pickett:
That’s a tragedy in itself. And Clifton Uckerman is LCSW, licensed clinical social worker, and, congratulations, the newest professor at the University of Utah in the Latinx-
Clifton Uckerman:
Position.
Tim Pickett:
Position.
Clifton Uckerman:
First of its kind.
Tim Pickett:
I’m so excited. For listeners out there, I mean, this is the episode. If you are not subscribed, you should subscribe now and get the downloads every week, because Clif and I are going to have multiple conversations throughout the year. We’ll publish. We will definitely not get through all of this today.
Clifton Uckerman:
Hmm.
Tim Pickett:
Right?
Clifton Uckerman:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, you have a really fascinating story. We’ll just see where this takes us.
Clifton Uckerman:
Yeah. Cool.
Tim Pickett:
When was the first time you were exposed to cannabis?
Clifton Uckerman:
Cannabis?
Tim Pickett:
Can you remember?
Clifton Uckerman:
Yeah. Since I was born. My dad was a pretty well known marijuana dealer back in the ’60s and ’70s. I mean, he had pretty rich connections. I remember, as early as I can remember, I mean, there would be pounds and pounds in the closet. I mean, I think I asked him one time when I got older how much weed did you have in the… That must have been at least a couple hundred pounds sitting in the closet.
Tim Pickett:
Holy cow. Wow. And you’re just a little kid.
Clifton Uckerman:
I’m just a baby. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Was this here in Utah?
Clifton Uckerman:
Here in Utah, on the west side of Salt Lake. My dad built and owned a house on property in a neighborhood called Chesterfield. Are you familiar with that neighborhood?
Tim Pickett:
Not really. I think I’ve heard of it.
Clifton Uckerman:
It’s the last to be incorporated. Even with curb and gutter, it was still dirt road, in West Valley City. The last neighborhood to be incorporated, Chesterfield.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, wow.
Clifton Uckerman:
They called it Teepee Town because everybody, 20 years before my dad built his home, a lot of people lived in Teepees. My play shed growing up was actually my grandparents’ old chicken coop. And before it was the chicken coop it was an actual little piece of housing for somebody to live in.
Tim Pickett:
Wow. !hat was it like growing up there? I mean, we can talk as much about this as you want, really. Look, you’re a therapist. You got into therapy. I know that this is a lot of, I don’t know. Tell us the story. Yeah.
Clifton Uckerman:
Well, have you seen the movie Blow with Johnny Depp?
Tim Pickett:
Yep.
Clifton Uckerman:
That’s kind of my dad’s story. And I grew up in that story. I mean, there’s this kind of cliche ’60s and ’70s of the big time drug dealer, marijuana, turning into cocaine, and then cocaine dismantling it all and ending in nothing good. My dad had pretty rich connections in the ’70s, sold a lot of marijuana, all of his brothers and all of his children. I was the youngest, so had I been 10 years older, I would’ve been selling for him. When I did become a teenager, I was selling at 12 or 13 years old. But all my older brothers in that time in the ’70s and all his brothers, they all had a pretty profitable distribution. And they were selling a lot up here-
Tim Pickett:
Here in the west.
Clifton Uckerman:
Here in Utah, yeah. I was born in ’81 and by the time I was born that’s when-
Tim Pickett:
Oh, you were moving into Coke.
Clifton Uckerman:
Yeah, he was into cocaine. And the problem there is he got pretty addicted to it. And everybody that was selling his weed also started selling his cocaine, and then everybody that started selling his cocaine, and him included, got hooked on it.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. You went from a drug that was dangerous because it was illegal, to a drug that was just plain dangerous.
Clifton Uckerman:
Yes.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. That’s too bad. But you can see the progression, I guess, of the thought process in society, how everybody thinks, oh, weed’s a gateway drug. Look at this story.
Clifton Uckerman:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
But really that kind of had nothing to do with it. It was just that it was illegal and profitable.
Clifton Uckerman:
Plus it was part of the trend. It was a societal trend. That’s what was just kind of coming in and moving and moving through people’s lives. I think it’s another form of medicine. Probably much more addictive than marijuana.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. It’s a lot more addictive from a medical standpoint. No question.
Clifton Uckerman:
And probably brings with it just a major onslaught of additional consequences. The criminalization and the incarceration and the legal involvement that can come with purchasing, selling, distributing, using is probably the most major consequence of them all.
Tim Pickett:
I believe you. I’m sure there’d be people out there who don’t think that. But I think that the criminalization of it just made everything… It just destroyed the whole thing.
Clifton Uckerman:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
And then you had addicts who couldn’t get any help.
Clifton Uckerman:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
Period.
Clifton Uckerman:
Period.
Tim Pickett:
We just put them in prison. And then we blame them and shame them.
Clifton Uckerman:
We shame them and punished them. And with addiction, I mean, the way that I look at it, in the marijuana days, I mean, of course I wasn’t really alive in the ’70s, but when I look back at photos and heard stories of my family and all the outings and the crowds and community that they were involved in, I mean, that seemed it was a really fun time. Right?
Tim Pickett:
I mean, it had to be. Because nobody died.
Clifton Uckerman:
Right. And it was just kind of use your medicine, come together, have fun, live life. And then the ’80s came and I think because of the societal trend, my dad, those rich connections that he had… my mom showed me pictures of all his connections and we’re talking big lawyers in Utah, big doctors in Utah, big real estate agents in Utah that are my dad’s connections. And my dad is really half Filipino, half German mixed race, biracial, general contractor that just lives on the west side.
Tim Pickett:
Right.
Clifton Uckerman:
So here comes the cocaine and he’s just kind of following suit. And these connections are just giving him more feed on what the supply and demand is and he’s distributing whatever the trend is at that point in time.
Tim Pickett:
Of course.
Clifton Uckerman:
But he did get busted in a really big way. I’m four years old, I was having a sleepover. And then all of a sudden, I see, just from the movies, all these agents, all in gear, black sunglasses, guns out and they come and bust in the house. And they seize everything. They go into his bedroom, they’re pulling out kilos of cocaine that he had duct taped under every drawer in his bedroom.
Tim Pickett:
Oh my gosh.
Clifton Uckerman:
And they take him to jail and they have all of his cash, wads of cash. And then my friends are like, “What the hell? Let’s go.” Their parents had to come pick them up.
Tim Pickett:
Oh yeah.
Clifton Uckerman:
And then my sister came and got me from the house. But at that point in time, I think that’s when things really started to go downhill because he didn’t get adequate treatment, and he was already in an addictive process. So the most counterintuitive thing that you can do, having worked in addiction myself as a clinician and as a provider, the most counterintuitive thing that you can do to somebody that’s in or coming out of or wants to come out of an addictive process is shame them. Because, really the triangle of addiction, the recipe of disaster for the addictive process is unmourned loss and grief, unprocessed or hidden trauma. Hidden because it gets buried and nobody talks about it and it remains a secret. And then the internalized shame that’s packed into or embedded into that trauma memory. So if you’re shaming somebody that’s in an addictive process or coming out of an addictive process, so counterintuitive and counterproductive, it’s like throwing gas onto a fire.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Now you grow up and when did you start using cannabis?
Clifton Uckerman:
Let me do a little bridge-
Tim Pickett:
Okay. Fill the gap.
Clifton Uckerman:
a bridge to that. He went down, didn’t get adequate treatment, was shamed and criminalized and penalized. And I think a lot of people, if they have the support and the resources and tools, most people don’t know what they don’t know until they’re getting busted, they go to jail, some bad consequence occurs and then they realize, and then they wake up and they’re like, “Oh my gosh. I didn’t realize. Now I feel guilty and ashamed.” And then they just need help.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Clifton Uckerman:
So for my dad, because I don’t think he got adequate help, he just became more ashamed. Couldn’t share more of his traumas, wasn’t mourning any of the loss and grief that was coming from this major life consequence. And so just continued to spiral down. I think if I look back at it, reflecting and looking at how I witnessed everything, I mean, I think he got… I could see him… At the time I didn’t realize this, but looking back at it now I do, getting more and more depressed, feeling more and more ashamed. Having lost a lot-
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Clifton Uckerman:
because of the criminalization and really couldn’t recover. And so ended up back in an addictive process until I was about 14 or 15. Because he got so heavily addicted to cocaine and crack cocaine, injected for several years, but in his last days as a crack addict, he was inevitably, eventually shot and killed in a crack house. One of the most reputable ones in Salt Lake City in 1997.
Tim Pickett:
Wow.
Clifton Uckerman:
Probably a few years before that, I had found some weed, in his truck. I think he was still trying to do a little bit of side hustling, but he didn’t have the major connections that he had had before.
Tim Pickett:
No.
Clifton Uckerman:
But my brother did and my other brother did. And so both my brothers, while my dad was kind of going downhill and getting more entrenched in his addictive process, but my brothers were still selling a lot of weed and I had found some in my dad’s truck. And I also found a little .22 millimeter handgun as well. So I’m 12 years old, lacking parental guidance and supervision. Family is broken up and falling apart.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Clifton Uckerman:
So I go to school and I pack my locker with a couple ounces of weed and I’m carrying around a little .22 at 12, 13 years old in seventh grade.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, I didn’t know about the .22.
Clifton Uckerman:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
God.
Clifton Uckerman:
Scary stuff.
Tim Pickett:
That’s scary stuff. I mean, the weed alone at that time…. Okay. You’re going to school in West Valley?
Clifton Uckerman:
West Lake Junior High.
Tim Pickett:
West Lake Junior High. It is 1992, ’94.
Clifton Uckerman:
About ’94, ’95.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. ’94, ’95. So we are in the midst of… I mean, we’re changing laws to make it harder on people so we can prosecute kids as adults. We’re building three strike rules. And you’re not white.
Clifton Uckerman:
Yes.
Tim Pickett:
Let me, I mean, add that to the mix.
Clifton Uckerman:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
And whoever says that’s not an issue doesn’t know anything from anything else.
Clifton Uckerman:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
So what is this like for you in junior high? You making money?
Clifton Uckerman:
Yeah. Well-
Tim Pickett:
You’re kind of making your own money.
Clifton Uckerman:
I’m kind of making my own life based on what I saw all my elders and my dad do.
Tim Pickett:
Sure.
Clifton Uckerman:
So I’m just kind of following suit and I don’t know what I don’t know. What does a 12 year old know? I mean, I was so young and stupid.
Clifton Uckerman:
I’m just driven by anxiety, fearful of what the future holds because I have to survive and I don’t know any other way but to just do what everybody else does. So yeah, I’m making money, but I’m also a delinquent juvenile because I have no parental supervision and support. My family is broken. It’s just me and the world. And I’m finding family through other kids and peers my age that are coming from similar backgrounds and home lives, because that’s what I can relate to and identify. I don’t feel like I belong with the normal kid. I feel estranged from the mainstream kid.
Tim Pickett:
From the mainstream at that time. You’re finding comradery and friendship in the kids with similar situations, broken homes and drug use.
Clifton Uckerman:
Yep. And then it’s just fun. It’s like, oh, this is cool. We get freedom. We get to do whatever we want. This Peter Pan and the lost boys.
Tim Pickett:
Wow.
Clifton Uckerman:
So I get kicked out of West Lake Junior High because of all that. I went, got put in the system. I was in the system for most of my teenage years. Did a lot of alternative schooling at a lot of different youth in custody classes in the valley.
Tim Pickett:
Talk about that a little bit. There’s a few of these kind of schools. If you get kicked out of one school, you go to another. If you get kicked out of two schools, you end up going to the special… I don’t know what that’s… What is that like in the ’90s to be you in these schools?
Clifton Uckerman:
Well, I get suspended from West Lake.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Clifton Uckerman:
And then I have to go enroll at Central, the old Central High. Which is where all the bad kids went.
Tim Pickett:
That’s where the bad kids go.
Clifton Uckerman:
And I got kicked out of there, because they have strict attendance policies.
Tim Pickett:
And you’re just not showing up because you can’t get there or because you’re stoned at home. You don’t give a shit about school.
Clifton Uckerman:
Yeah. All of it.
Tim Pickett:
All of it.
Clifton Uckerman:
All of it. Yeah. It just wasn’t even part of the normal life routine for me.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, do you feel like once you stepped outside of that mainstream going to school, you just feel like you abandoned care of it as a kid? I just don’t…. It’s not my story. I’m really fascinated with that sense of being a teenager and not knowing what you don’t know and really not knowing anything.
Clifton Uckerman:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
Not only do you not know what you don’t know, essentially you don’t know anything.
Clifton Uckerman:
Right. I think when you say abandoned care, I mean, I think the care was probably abandoned by the adults in my life that were dealing with mental health and addiction issues. And so really at that point in time it’s not necessarily that I’m-
Tim Pickett:
You’re trying to survive.
Clifton Uckerman:
I’m in survival mode. Yeah. Because care was abandoned with me.
Tim Pickett:
Yes.
Clifton Uckerman:
And so then I had to do what I had to… Be the adult that I thought I had to be in order to get by in the world and survive.
Tim Pickett:
And school’s not part of that equation.
Clifton Uckerman:
And schools not part of that.
Tim Pickett:
That’s a lower priority.
Clifton Uckerman:
Right. And the people that I were hanging out with, so the groups or the crowds that you tend to kind of fall into that I fell into, have their own hierarchy, call it gang life. And so part of that survival strategy is to prove yourself, to become one with the gang and then do what you can do to help sponsor and support all the activity that the gang life provides and the support and care that they bring to your life.
Clifton Uckerman:
So then I’m proving myself. I’m stealing cars. I’m stealing stuff from stores. I’m jacking purses. I’m selling drugs. I’m moving and shaking things. I’m doing all kinds of crazy stuff. And school’s just completely out of the picture at that point in time.
Tim Pickett:
You don’t seem this type of person now.
Clifton Uckerman:
Not now.
Tim Pickett:
I’m sitting here across from you trying, not really trying, but the mind starts to envision this situation. And I’m envisioning myself at that point in time. Because we’re not that far in age. I was born in ’78, so somewhat similar in age. I’m in junior high, high school at the time. My world is not at all like this, at all. Right. I’m watching you on the news.
Clifton Uckerman:
Right. Oh yeah.
Tim Pickett:
I don’t quite know how to wrap my head around that, knowing you now.
Clifton Uckerman:
Right. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Huh.
Clifton Uckerman:
It’s a huge change for me. I mean, I’ve completely changed my life and the trajectory that I was on. I didn’t think I would make it past 18. I thought I’d be dead or in prison.
Tim Pickett:
You just didn’t have a… Okay. Is it normal teenage development that you cannot see beyond a certain future? Or is it that your situation was such that you didn’t see past your 18th birthday?
Clifton Uckerman:
Well, I think it’s part of natural, normal human development, especially as a teen for the imagination station to start to take place. All this neuronal activity and all these new neural pathways that are developing inside of the brain, I think most teenagers are going to think far enough or as far as they can see and imagine something in their future.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Imagine getting married or having a house, or what it looks like to be the X, Y, Z person after high school or after college.
Clifton Uckerman:
Right. And my imagination only just took me to death or prison, or a big time drug dealer with all the power and a big old crew.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. You would still have the imagination running. It would just run in a… Was it really that limited?
Clifton Uckerman:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
It was prison, death or a mansion with a crew.
Clifton Uckerman:
Oh yeah. Well, and that’s all I seen.
Tim Pickett:
That really is the only… Because the imagination wouldn’t go on the street. Right?
Clifton Uckerman:
Well, you can’t-
Tim Pickett:
Wouldn’t go addict.
Clifton Uckerman:
You can’t think of an alternative world if you don’t come from that alternative world to begin with.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Clifton Uckerman:
So the only world I’m living in is death, destruction, drugs, gangs, crime.
Tim Pickett:
What happened? How did it-
Clifton Uckerman:
How did it all change?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. What was the catalyst?
Clifton Uckerman:
Well, I was locked up a lot in my teenage years. From 12 to 18 I was in and out, in and out of detention, juvenile settings. So I was on my way… I was this close, people can’t see my fingers right now, but I got half a millimeter between my thumb and my index.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. There’s no space. There’s no light there.
Clifton Uckerman:
This close from youth prison. Because I was involved in quite a bit of stuff. I was a fighter. I had lots of road rage. I carried lots of drugs. I carried weapons, all that kind of stuff. But my dad got shot and killed when I was 15, 14, 15. I probably would’ve went to prison had I… at that point in time, we went to try to look for the guy that killed him. And had we found him that night, I’m certain that I would’ve killed him and been in… still been sitting in prison. But he had a fleed and went to California and time had passed and I had grown and became more emotionally mature and learned how to later accept and forgive and all that kind of stuff.
Clifton Uckerman:
But through my teenage years, and being locked up all the time, I got to about 18 years old, 17, 18 years old. And with being locked up all that time, I actually was in places where there were people that did mentor me. Now, a lot of them, very few of them, were people of color. And so when I ended up in detention centers and I was in a day treatment program through Valley Behavioral Health called ARTEC. I was in there for a while.
Clifton Uckerman:
Then I got into a program in the community. It was a prevention program where we would just build homes. They would pay us, teach us all these life skills and whoop our butts when we got into trouble. They became the parents that we never had. So this group of friends that I had developed at this later point in time in my teenage years, we were all just roughneck kids with no family support, lack of parental guidance. And it was the people in the community that actually stepped into raise us. So along the way, I had probably a handful of mentors that just stepped in to my life, guide and direct and try what they could to help me change my life around.
Clifton Uckerman:
And so by the time I was 18, 19, I just ended up with some really good mentoring, getting involved in the community. I remember walking, knocking on doors with Senator Pete Suazo, other legislators like Duane Bordeaux. And I was angry though, because I felt a lot of police brutality. My dad before he got killed was beat up really badly by the police for stealing a pack of cigarettes at Smith’s. My brother had already gotten locked up and went to prison for carrying a firearm. And I was just angry and I got involved in the community.
Clifton Uckerman:
I just wanted to make a difference. I wanted to make a change. I wanted to make sure that people could actually have a chance to succeed and not have to suffer on top of the family problems and kind of the generational and racial kinds of traditions that tend to carry through because of systemic racism and injustices and oppression, I didn’t want people to have to also experience extra discrimination and oppression in their own community, in the villages that they were living in. So I was angry and I was knocking on doors, just trying to get people involved and get support and ended up on a pathway of education and really linking into the community and really relying on the people that were there to mentor and support me along the way.
Tim Pickett:
When did you decide to get into, start to get into clinical practice and realize… It seems, to me, this is somewhat of a calling for you. Or certainly would feel like that likely when you decided to do it.
Clifton Uckerman:
Right. If I think back to those teenage years and all the programs that I was in, I was always a leader. I always took charge. I’d backtalk. I’d smart mouth. The other kids saw that courage and they kind of just followed me in that. And then this program that I was in, where we built homes, it’s called the YouthWorks program through NeighborWorks Salt Lake on the west side of Salt Lake, I ended up coming back to that program as a peer support, a peer leader. I was getting paid. I was one of the first peer… We have peer support specialists now. But back then, you just called it a peer leader and there was no certification.
Clifton Uckerman:
And I got involved in this program. I got really involved in the community. I kind of went through the ranks and I became a site supervisor, was wearing my own tool belt, carrying my own nail gun, teaching other kids like me how to build homes. And then I became the coordinator of the program doing a desk job and paperwork. And then I ended up becoming director of the program and I was writing multimillion dollar grants over the course of five years. Did a lot of grant work grant writing, did lots of projects in the community
Tim Pickett:
This is when you were a teenager, you were involved in that program and working and building houses and working your way up. Did that come with a lot of education, formal education? Or was it on the job?
Clifton Uckerman:
On the job.
Tim Pickett:
And they were like, “Here’s a grant. I need you to learn how to write one just like this.”
Clifton Uckerman:
On the job, the opportunity presented itself. I stepped in. A lot of it was just the social skills training from all of the programs I had been in and the people that had mentored me, but the opportunity came to write the grants. And one thing, one talent that I always had, even in junior high and high school as I was attempting to get an education, is writing. I’ve always had really great technical writing skills. Sometimes I write too much.
Clifton Uckerman:
It just kind of presented itself. And I spent about a week, when the opportunity came, to get this grant in, because it was due a week. And the old director in that position had left, so really it was me as the coordinator to step in and see what I could do. Did a week. Stayed up really late most nights and was just typing away, doing research, getting the information, collecting the data, running the budget so that I could submit this grant to Salt Lake County and have the county pay for more services for youth in the community.
Tim Pickett:
Wow. Did you parlay that into college?
Clifton Uckerman:
After that people kept telling me you need to get your master’s degree. Because I had, I actually had gotten my bachelor’s degree in that time. By the time I was 18 and going through all the programs and getting out of the system, I was able to get a GED in the alternative setting, which gave me my last five credits for a high school diploma. So my high school diploma allowed me to get into Salt Lake Community College. And I used FAFSA and government funding because of my family’s income-
Tim Pickett:
Sure.
Clifton Uckerman:
to get me through college. And during this time as I was transitioning my life and my lifestyle and getting involved in the community, I actually ended up getting a really good opportunity to meet the president of the University of Utah, Bernie Machen, through a really great mentor of mine. Her name was Irene Fisher and she was doing a lot of work on the west side community and developed what’s now called University Neighborhood Partners, on the west side of Salt Lake. So she took me to his office. We were in his office and he asked me if I wanted a full ride scholarship. He would just give it to me, because of where I had come from and what I had been through and all the work that I was doing in the community and my leadership ability.
Clifton Uckerman:
So he said, “I will give you a scholarship. What do you want to do? Do you want to come up here?” I said, “Give me a week to think about it. I don’t want to say yes right now.” I actually wanted to be a cop. And I did a little bit of training in the police corps, the academy, and realized really quickly that it was so much of an us versus them mentality, and because of where I had come from, I couldn’t live with myself hitting the streets and arresting people that looked me, that came from families that I came from and putting people deeper into the system. I wanted to help in a different kind of way.
Clifton Uckerman:
So I got the scholarship, got my bachelor’s degree, became the director of that program, youth program. And then people kept telling me, “You need to get your master’s degree. You need to get your master’s degree.” And so I applied for some scholarships, sold everything that I had, really went nearly homeless and broke to get my master’s degree. And then finally got my master’s degree, 2009, 2010. Didn’t know a thing about diagnoses, didn’t know a thing about DSM, didn’t know a thing about mental health disorders. I just knew that I wanted to help people. And I thought social work was the way in and I submitted the application and got accepted to the program.
Tim Pickett:
Do you still feel that way, that social work is the way to help people?
Clifton Uckerman:
I think there’s a lot of different ways to help people. What I used to tell people is, because in the early days social work didn’t make enough money. I was making maybe 35,000 a year.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Everybody I know who went into social work said the same thing. It was just hard. I mean, I’ve got an uncle who went into social work and ended up back in construction, owning a construction company, because you just made a better living at it.
Clifton Uckerman:
I would tell people, because I used to chair the Chicano Scholarship Fund. We would give thousands of dollars in scholarships a year up at the U of U. And I would tell these social work students turn back now.
Tim Pickett:
Turn back, hurry. Hurry,
Clifton Uckerman:
Become an architect or a doctor and donate to charity.
Tim Pickett:
Accountant. Anything else. Anything else. But that has somewhat changed. We’ll talk a lot about this, I think, in maybe a whole future discussion. But it is different now from an income standpoint.
Clifton Uckerman:
Oh yeah.
Tim Pickett:
That’s for sure. And really because of COVID, there was a lot of changes with COVID, too.
Clifton Uckerman:
Well before that-
Tim Pickett:
Oh, and the ACA.
Clifton Uckerman:
with the parity law. With the commercial insurance having to cover mental health and addiction. Being a social worker, and especially doing clinical services and providing therapy, wasn’t just something you did with Medicaid or the nonprofit or government sector, you could jump into the private sector and really work with commercial insurance. I learned that you could, for me, the more people I helped, the more money I could make and the more money I make, the more people I can help. And that’s been my philosophy.
Tim Pickett:
I’m glad you’ve come to that because it is true. I don’t know that it’s… I think it’s universally true. And I think when you focus on helping people, you definitely have more opportunity to make money. And you’re right, money is fuel and businesses need fuel, which means you can help more people.
Tim Pickett:
Thanks everybody for listening to part one of a two part episode and discussion with Clifton Uckerman. Stay tuned for next week when we finish up our conversation of essentially phase one of what Clif is up to and his background and story. Really an inspiring story for us to pay attention to those around us and how drug policy is affecting our youth and how it affected Clif. We really need to reach out to people and lend a hand. Looking forward to episode two next week. Stay subscribed to Utah in the Weeds. Stay safe out there.
You are new to the whole Medical Cannabis thing. You have visited a Qualified Medical Provider (QMP) and obtained your Medical Cannabis Card. You are all set for your first visit to the pharmacy. But you’re nervous. You don’t know what to expect and wish there was a guide to Medical Cannabis. Well, take a step back and breathe. You are not alone.
Medical Cannabis, or Medical Marijuana if you prefer, is still fairly new in Utah. It’s pretty normal for new patients to go into it with more questions than answers. But the good news is that QMPs and Pharmacy Medical Providers (PMPs) are usually more than happy to help. Feel free to ask whatever questions you might have. In the meantime, we have put together this introductory guide to Medical Cannabis that we hope will answer at least some of those questions.
The debate over marijuana safety has been raging for decades. Political ideologies aside, historical and medical evidence does not suggest that marijuana poses any significant dangers to human beings. Better yet, a scientific research report published in 2019 cites evidence suggesting that human beings have been safely using marijuana for thousands of years. It has been utilized medicinally and for religious observances for a long, long time.
You should also know that, to date, there are no reported deaths that have been directly linked to marijuana over-consumption. In other words, Medical Cannabis patients are not harming themselves or dying as a result of overdosing.
Historically speaking, the most common way to use cannabis has been to smoke it. Utah regulations prohibit smoking it, so Medical Cannabis patients in the state have other options to choose from. Here is what we currently have to work with:
There is no one-size-fits-all delivery method for every patient. Your best bet is to talk things over with your QMP and PMP.
The first thing most people think of when the topic of cannabis comes up is getting high. That can be a scary proposition for new patients who have never used Medical Cannabis before. Here is what you need to know: your medicine might make you high, but it might not. It really depends on the cannabinoids you are using.
THC is the cannabinoid that causes the high effect. So if your medicine contains THC, you are likely to experience those feelings. However, some Medical Cannabis medications contain little or no THC. Instead, they offer CBD as the primary cannabinoid. CBD does not induce those high feelings.
Getting dosage right can be a tricky thing. First, accept the reality that you probably won’t get it right the first or second time. In fact, do not be surprised to find yourself adjusting delivery method and dosage throughout an entire lifetime of use. That is the nature of Medical Marijuana.
We recommend that you work with your PMP to determine how to best utilize your medicines. Also, track your usage. Write down how much medicine you use, how frequently you use it, and how it affects you. That is valuable information your PMP can look at to help you determine the best dosage.
Consult our “Find Your ‘Just Right’ Dose” guide to Medical Cannabis for more information on tailoring your cannabis dosing to your unique needs.
Welcome to the wonderful world of Medical Marijuana. You have a lot to learn, but there are plenty of people standing by ready to help. We trust you will find the Medical Marijuana community welcoming, friendly, and always willing to come alongside and assist you in your journey.
