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What to Expect in This Episode

Episode 86 of Utah in the Weeds features Kylee Shumway, Pharmacist In Charge at WholesomeCo Cannabis in West Bountiful.

Shumway is also the Medical Director for the Utah Patients Coalition, a cannabis advocacy group. UPC led the signature-gathering initiative that brought Medical Cannabis to Utah’s midterm election in 2018.

Like many people, Shumway’s first experiences with cannabis happened when she was a teenager. Growing up in Lindon, Utah, she noticed cannabis seemed to be more popular among her religious classmates than it was for people outside of the dominant religion. [3:33]

Kylee told us about her education and early career as a pharmacist. Her first job out of college was at a Smith’s pharmacy. [05:54]

Shumway says she was interested in becoming a cannabis pharmacist as early as 2012. When Utah passed Medical Cannabis legislation in 2018, she knew it was time to take her career on a new path. [12:24]

Kylee’s passion for Medical Cannabis began while she was in pharmacy school. Her father, a cancer patient, had lost 80-90 pounds during the course of his treatment. But cannabis helped to restore his appetite and his ability to swallow. [13:44]

In January 2020, the Utah Dept. of Health announced the recipients of the state’s first 14 Medical Cannabis pharmacy licenses. Kylee immediately started to apply for work as a cannabis pharmacist. [17:21]

Kylee is very interested in cannabinoids and how they interact with the body. She and Tim agree there is a vast amount of research about cannabis yet to be done. [24:09]

The conversation turned to Utah’s Medical Cannabis program. Kylee says it’s “astonishing” that Utah has Medical Cannabis. She’s glad to see healthcare providers working to educate each other, and their patients, about Medical Cannabis. [27:38]

Kylee is heavily involved in educating patients and her fellow healthcare professionals about Medical Cannabis. She says WholesomeCo enables her to research cannabis and put together educational material as she sees fit. [33:25]

She told us about her involvement with Utah Patients Coalition and her duties as their medical director. She spends a lot of time with UPC at the Utah State Capitol, where they continue to advocate for patients’ access to Medical Cannabis. [36:47]

Shumway is also interested in the therapeutic uses of psilocybin, the active ingredient in hallucinogenic mushrooms. She’s involved in a political push to form a task force for Utah to investigate psilocybin’s medical potential. [37:42]

Tim and Kylee are keeping a close eye on the Utah Legislature’s 2022 session, and any Medical Cannabis legislation that could be passed in the session. We expect to see better protections for patients, including some who are public servants. [43:58]

Kylee talked about her favorite cannabis delivery methods: tinctures and edibles. She likes them because they’re discreet, effective, and are available in a variety of cannabinoid ratios. [47:34]

If you’d like to get in touch with Kylee, she recommends reaching out to her via the Utah Patients Coalition’s social media channels. [53:13]

 

Podcast Transcript

Kylee Shumway:
That is actually why I’m up there, is I’m helping the Utah Patients Coalition with whatever they need. Essentially I am their expert on cannabis and patients, and we are doing some stuff with a psilocybin task force still, and so I’m also their expert there.

Tim Pickett:
Okay, just stop right now. Let’s talk about psilocybin. Welcome everybody out to Utah in the Weeds. My name is Tim Pickett and I am your host. Today is episode 86, an interview with Kylee Shumway, a friend of mine in the cannabis industry and medical cannabis space. Somebody with whom I share a lot of familiar opinions with, frankly, as you listen to this episode. Kylee Shumway is the pharmacist in charge at WholesomeCo Medical Cannabis Pharmacy, here in Bountiful, Utah. WholesomeCo is one of the growing medical cannabis pharmacies in the state of Utah and they currently offer delivery services to every corner of Utah for free. I want to mention that, because they’re the only pharmacy to do that. And Kylee runs their medical program as a pharmacist. Here in this interview, we talk about her background, how she got into cannabis and what things are really important to her with regard to the patients here in Utah in her patient care.

Tim Pickett:
Kylee is also the medical director for the Utah Patients Coalition and activist group here in the state of Utah, and along with Desiree Hennessy, the executive director of that Utah Patients Coalition, is very, very involved on the Hill during the legislative session now, that’s in session here in Utah, working for patients, working for us, right? Patients and providers, trying to increase safety, increase access, decrease costs, make those tweaks and changes that we’re all hoping, hoping that the state will move forward on. Additionally, she is working with the Utah Patients Coalition on a psilocybin bill, which we talk about here in the interview, so make sure you listen to that as well.

Tim Pickett:
We talk all about her background and how she got into pharmacy, what she loves about THC and compounding cannabinoids. Very, very fun conversation to listen to. From a housekeeping perspective, stay tuned. One of our next episodes will be with a veteran who has experience with Truu Med. Now you may be familiar with them, because their owner and operator was recently arrested for kidnapping and torturing a woman. We are going to talk to a veteran who was a patient of theirs and had that experience, and listen to what he has to say about that whole thing, how he feels like they were very unfair to him in that didn’t really take care of him. If you’re not subscribed to Utah in the Weeds, go ahead, download it on any podcast player that you have access to. Again, my name’s Tim Pickett. Enjoy this episode with Kylie Shumway. Okay. Kylie, what started this all, your journey into cannabis? When was the first time you were exposed to cannabis? Tell me about that.

Kylee Shumway:
I think-

Tim Pickett:
And don’t lie. Your mom’s not going to listen to this.

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah, my mom’s never going to hear this. I had friends that used cannabis when I was in high school. I wasn’t as into it. I definitely did use cannabis in high school, but-

Tim Pickett:
Did you grow up in Utah?

Kylee Shumway:
I did. I grew up in Lindon, Utah.

Tim Pickett:
Wow. We’ve met a lot of people on the podcast who have actually used cannabis in high school, and frankly I’m surprised, because I didn’t think it was that prevalent, but evidently it was a bigger deal than I thought.

Kylee Shumway:
It was really prevalent with more of the religious kids. They actually seemed to use more cannabis than maybe the kids that were outside of the dominant religion.

Tim Pickett:
Cool. Used it a little bit in high school, but didn’t really love it?

Kylee Shumway:
I tried it, but I didn’t love it for a whole lot of reasons. One being that I had a lot of anxiety when I was younger, so it just made me more anxious. And so I was like, I don’t love this-

Tim Pickett:
Classic. This, to me, is like… My experience was pretty similar. I did it a little bit, but honestly, the funnest part about smoking weed in high school is the moment right before you actually get high. Right before that, because then you’re like, I’m doing thing that I’m not supposed to. It’s really exciting, you’ve got all that adrenaline and then you get high and you’re just paranoid. Right? This is not fun.

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah, and then paranoia kicks in and then this is awful. I’m not having fun, but yeah, you’re right. The time leading up to that, the camaraderie and with your friends and you’re having so much fun and then you’re not having fun.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, then all of a sudden you’re really not having fun. Kids, don’t smoke weed. It’s really not really worth it.

Kylee Shumway:
I did not have fun.

Tim Pickett:
Because it’s just not fun.

Kylee Shumway:
I did not have fun. I didn’t actually find any medicinal benefit from cannabis until I was an adult and I could make more well-informed decisions with my pharmacy knowledge, with the background that I then had.

Tim Pickett:
Ah, really? When did you go into pharmacy?

Kylee Shumway:
I started my… In 2011 was my first year of college.

Tim Pickett:
2011?

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah, so 2011. And I knew, I was pretty sure that I wanted to be a pharmacist. I tried some other things. I took some programming classes and just some other stuff to make sure that that’s what I really wanted, but after my first biology and my first chemistry class, it was like, that’s it.

Tim Pickett:
You’re like, “Wow, this is really cool.”

Kylee Shumway:
This is exactly what I want.

Tim Pickett:
Why pharmacy?

Kylee Shumway:
I thought about going to medical school, but when I started college, I was actually 25 and I was concerned about how long medical school takes. I felt a little rushed, which wasn’t true. I should not have felt rushed. But at 25 in Utah, I was like, I’m too old. I didn’t start soon enough, which was all a fallacy. That was all not true, but that’s how I felt. I was like, “I’m going to be a pharmacist, I can do that in between five and nine years, instead of 15 years. I can get done with it.” Because I wouldn’t need to do… It’s not required to do a residency or anything like that, but you can do a residency if you want.

Tim Pickett:
You can do a one-year intensive-

Kylee Shumway:
I think they do two-year residencies.

Tim Pickett:
Oh, they do?

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah, uh-huh (affirmative).

Tim Pickett:
With PA school, there’s only a couple of what they would consider residencies in the nation, right? And they don’t make you more money. There’s a few. There’s one trauma program at IHC for PAs.

Kylee Shumway:
Oh, interesting. There’s quite a few residencies now for pharmacy school, but again, I just had this idea that I was in a hurry and that I needed to hurry up and pick a job and hurry up and do something with myself.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, hurry up and do all the… Yeah, right.

Kylee Shumway:
Hurry up and be an adult.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, hurry up. Geez, Kylee, 25.

Kylee Shumway:
I was 25 and I was-

Tim Pickett:
Come on.

Kylee Shumway:
… in such a rush.

Tim Pickett:
2011, you go back to school?

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah, that is when I go back to school. I had graduated years earlier, but I just knew I wasn’t ready for college when I graduated from high school. I still had all that anxiety that I was working on and I still had this idea that maybe I wasn’t smart enough, which was also a lie, but anxiety makes it hard to see what’s true.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, I could totally see that. Then did you work in retail pharmacy?

Kylee Shumway:
Yes, that was my very first job out of college, when I graduated in 2016. I rushed through college. I actually, at the end, I think I was taking 37-and-a-half credit hours a semester or something, in two-week blocks.

Tim Pickett:
Oh wow, yeah, uh-huh (affirmative). You were really in a hurry.

Kylee Shumway:
I was really in a hurry.

Tim Pickett:
You were really in a hurry. Do you feel like you’re in that big of a hurry now?

Kylee Shumway:
No.

Tim Pickett:
Not quite? You’re busy though.

Kylee Shumway:
I’m busy.

Tim Pickett:
You’re really busy now. We’ll talk about that in a second. But so 2016, what was your first job as a pharmacist?

Kylee Shumway:
I was a retail pharmacist at Smith’s and I actually enjoyed it. I got a lot of patient interaction and it was really a way for me to become comfortable with myself as a healthcare provider. I had a lot of really good pharmacists around me to help me out and I was really glad that that’s where I started. Though pretty soon after that, I think I was a retail pharmacist for about a year, and then I got into compounding pharmacy. I loved retail pharmacy. It was great, but there are some problems at the corporate level that have come to light actually, recently. There’s a big movement all over social media right now. I think it’s called. She Waited, and then Pizza Is Not Working.

Tim Pickett:
Oh, okay. Describe that. What’s happening?

Kylee Shumway:
There was a pharmacist in a retail pharmacy chain that got sick, called corporate and said, “Hey, I need somebody to cover me. I’m really sick.” And they’re like, “Well, we don’t have anybody.” And they had all these excuses. “You can’t shut the pharmacy down. You have to wait until somebody else gets there,” because she was the only pharmacist and the pharmacist can’t leave the pharmacy or the pharmacy has to shut down. She waited, and while she waited, she had a heart attack and died.

Tim Pickett:
Oh man!

Kylee Shumway:
It was so bad. And I’m pretty sure it was CVS.

Tim Pickett:
Interesting.

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah, there’s some stuff in retail pharmacy that I think needs fixing and it needed fixing while I was a retail pharmacist.

Tim Pickett:
Did you like compounding better?

Kylee Shumway:
Much better.

Tim Pickett:
Compounding, the difference is with compounding pharmacies, you get a lot more providers calling in and then saying, “Hey, I need you to mix up this.”

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah, or-

Tim Pickett:
That’s like mortar and pestle, the whole… Did you do that?

Kylee Shumway:
I actually used mortar and pestles all the time, and capsule machines. It’s so fun. It’s so fun and I love to bake as well, so it’s right up my alley. I was just like, “This is great.”

Tim Pickett:
You’re like a drug baker.

Kylee Shumway:
This is everything that I could have ever wanted and I loved it, so I specialized in bioidentical hormone replacement, and that’s a lot of what we were compounding. I loved it. I loved it so much. I worked there for years. I did compounding pharmacy for years in a couple different compounding pharmacies, and it was so fun. And then I got to the point that I was really confident, I was doing really great and I really knew what I was doing, and then the law passed in Utah for cannabis, in, what was that? 2018?

Tim Pickett:
Yep.

Kylee Shumway:
And I started telling everybody around me, I was like, “That’s what I want to do.” And that had started. Me talking about being a cannabis pharmacist started in probably 2012.

Tim Pickett:
Interesting. That is… Because in Utah, there wasn’t any discussion about really even the law at all, passing before that big push in 2018, when it passed.

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah. I would tell people that I was going to move out of state to become-

Tim Pickett:
To become a pharmacist?

Kylee Shumway:
A cannabis pharmacist.

Tim Pickett:
There’s a couple of other states that require pharmacists in their programs. It’s Connecticut, I think?

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah, Connecticut does, because we had looked at Connecticut’s program for this program. We were looking at some of the similarities, and then I think Columbia Care keeps pharmacists on staff, no matter what state it’s in.

Tim Pickett:
Uh-huh (affirmative), and I think Curealeaf does a very similar thing. They like pharmacists there in their programs, even in states where they don’t require one.

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah, yeah. There was there was that going on, and then I would tell people that that’s what I was going to do. And then in pharmacy school, my dad got sick. While I was in pharmacy school, my dad got cancer and he got really sick and the chemotherapy was so hard on him. He was on cisplatin, which is the one that makes you the most nauseous, and then he was on doxorubicin and vincristine, and those are really hard on your body, especially the doxorubicin, so he was really sick all the time. We had to leave the state to get cannabis for him, because he had lost so much weight.

Kylee Shumway:
He had lost 80 pounds or 90 pounds, or something crazy like that. We finally took him out of state and he started eating again and the sores in his mouth weren’t so bad and he could swallow, because he’d lost the ability to swallow, and when he started using cannabis again, he could swallow. We couldn’t tell anybody, because he’s at the VA. We can’t tell anybody that we’re using this, but the nurses were like, “Oh, I can’t believe how great you’re doing. You’ve totally turned around. This is wonderful.”

Tim Pickett:
Wow. And it was all because the cannabis he was using, and all of a sudden he’s got a little appetite.

Kylee Shumway:
So he could eat. Mm-hmm (affirmative), some pain relief.

Tim Pickett:
Is that where you learned all your real cannabis medicine, really?

Kylee Shumway:
I think that’s where my passion came from for it. I saw my dad do a 180 and I was like, “I could do that for people.” I had joked about it in 2012 and be like, “I’m going to be a cannabis pharmacist. Ha ha. So funny.” And then that happened and I was like, “I know really I could do this.”

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, now all of a sudden it’s real. I feel like sometimes, with my experience, in the textbook you assume it is real and you believe it and you know how it makes you feel and you know it stimulates your appetite or it makes you relaxed or it helps your back pain, but you don’t really see the benefits for other people until you actually see them have benefit. There’s a difference in reading it in a book and having-

Kylee Shumway:
An experience.

Tim Pickett:
… and experienced… Yeah, or by your patients even too, right?

Kylee Shumway:
Uh-huh (affirmative), oh yeah.

Tim Pickett:
Having your dad… Wow, no, this isn’t just… This is actually real.

Kylee Shumway:
This is real and I knew, once my dad had finished his chemo and he was doing great, and he’s still alive and he’s still doing so good-

Tim Pickett:
That’s so amazing.

Kylee Shumway:
I was like, I could do this for somebody. I could be that person that helps somebody like that and then helps their family too. Because to have my dad get better didn’t just have him get better. It was better for my mom, because she was his main caretaker. It was better for me, because I was helping. It was better for everybody involved, because he had a better attitude. He didn’t hurt so bad, he could get up and move himself around better, because he wasn’t just in so much pain and so sick.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, he was able to disassociate with what was physically happening.

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah.

Tim Pickett:
That’s really great.

Kylee Shumway:
It was amazing. All of that, and then becoming… Yeah, so all of that, I was a retail pharmacist, a compounding pharmacist and then the bill passed and I was like, “I don’t have to move. I’m going to stay here.”

Tim Pickett:
When did you get your job with Wholesome?

Kylee Shumway:
I started emailing as soon as they announced who had got the licenses in January of 2020.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, I remember that. I remember I was lifting weights at the time, with Sean Hammond, who had applied for a license and we were waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting for those to come around. Yep, yeah, that was fun. That’s a fun time. Then you become a pharmacist at Wholesome and now you’re in charge. You’re in charge of the place.

Kylee Shumway:
I am in charge of a lot of things. Some of the stuff I’m in charge in, I’m actually going to split it up with Kelly now, because my job has gotten to where it’s three or four people’s job. I am going to get some help. Kelly has been really fabulous, so she’s going to help me out and I’m going to take over much more of a… I’m going to do less of the day-to-day, writing the schedule and checking on people’s consults and stuff like that. I’m going to be working-

Tim Pickett:
And now you have to check every transaction number.

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah.

Tim Pickett:
I haven’t really talked to a pharmacist since that’s happened. I think we talked about, like with Rich last year, that it happened. And what I’m describing is the, for those of you who are listening, is there was an update to the legislation last year in Utah, where a pharmacist has to now verify that a patient’s dosing and purchasing ability is matching with what they’re purchasing, meaning they can’t go over their limit. And that has to be verified at every transaction.

Kylee Shumway:
Yes. And then along with that, what the pharmacists are also verifying is that what is in the bag is what’s on their receipt. It’s a lot like doing the final check in an actual retail pharmacy, where we’re making sure-

Tim Pickett:
And that was why it was passed. That was… Right.

Kylee Shumway:
Now we’re making sure that, just like we do at a retail pharmacy, where I’m looking, I’m physically looking in the bottle and making sure that those pills are what they say on the screen, because sometimes they’re not.

Tim Pickett:
Interesting.

Kylee Shumway:
And I don’t know how many times I’ve either caught the wrong pills in the bottle, the wrong strength is in the bottle or the wrong medication has been typed in from the prescription, or that the prescription actually has the wrong drug name on it. The prescription from the… There’s a lot of things to catch. But the big thing is, is that I’m actually checking and seeing what’s in the bag is what’s supposed to be in the bag, and it’s just another way… It’s that final check to make sure that everything is in there is in there, but I think it’s also a way to… Everybody’s really worried about diversion, and it’s just one more way of not having-

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, looking the patient in the eye and saying, “This is for you. This is not for somebody else.”

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah, yes.

Tim Pickett:
And I think diversion… What do you think? I think diversion’s a bigger issue than… Nobody really wants to talk about it, but-

Kylee Shumway:
No one wants to talk about it. I was even nervous saying the words. I was like, oh-

Tim Pickett:
I know, because let’s be honest, your sister, your brother, your mom, your son, they need to try something. You’re like, “I’m a patient. I’ll just run down there and you can try some of my tincture.”

Kylee Shumway:
Right?

Tim Pickett:
That is against, not just state law, that’s against federal law and state law. That’s really dangerous. But I don’t know, it’s like it’s no big deal almost.

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah, and nobody wants to talk about it.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, nobody wants to talk about it, but people, it’s a real thing. People divert. It’s called diversion.

Kylee Shumway:
It’s called diversion.

Tim Pickett:
It’s essentially like… In fact, it’s probably worse, from a legal perspective, to divert cannabis than it is to divert opioids. I don’t know. It may be-

Kylee Shumway:
Because they’re more illegal.

Tim Pickett:
It’s less dangerous to your health, but they’re more-

Kylee Shumway:
It’s a schedule one drug, which-

Tim Pickett:
Weed’s more illegal.

Kylee Shumway:
… I think is going to change.

Tim Pickett:
I think that’s ridiculous.

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah.

Tim Pickett:
Right, yeah, okay. Let’s not go down that rabbit hole yet, but-

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah, that’s a dangerous road for us to go.

Tim Pickett:
Okay, now you see patients at Wholesome, you come all this way from Lindon, and every time I see you, you’re really happy. You seem like you really like your life right now.

Kylee Shumway:
Well, honestly, I cannot believe that this is what I get to do. I can’t believe it. I’ve been talking about it since I started college, “I want to be a cannabis pharmacist. That’s what I want.” And here I am. Who gets that? Who gets to have that in their life?

Tim Pickett:
There’s only 10 of you. Actually, maybe there’s 30 of you now in Utah.

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah, I get to have my dream job.

Tim Pickett:
Right. You get to literally… What I tell people is I literally teach people how to use cannabis. I literally teach people how to smoke weed for a living. It’s pretty awesome. Pretty fun.

Kylee Shumway:
It’s incredible. And I have the chance to do all the research that I want and look at anything that has anything to do with patient care and have a real impact on how patients are taken care of in the cannabis space. And it has been incredible. I love it. I love it and I feel like sometimes outside of medical programs, my patients are forgotten. My true medical patients… Not true, all of them. Everybody’s a medical patient, really, in my opinion, but sometimes they’re forgotten when the medical programs go away, and I get to make sure that they’re taken care of here.

Tim Pickett:
Yep. In Oregon, there’s been a 70% reduction in the medical patients. And there’s certainly going to be a reduction in any adult use program, but I do like that it’s medical here first. I think legitimizing it first, it was the right move.

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah, and making sure that people have good information and that the QMP and the PMPs, we’re doing all we can to educate patients on what’s true, because there’s so much misinformation on the internet. You can just go on the internet and find whatever you want, and there’s a lot of it that’s wrong.

Tim Pickett:
You can really find whatever you want.

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah, yeah.

Tim Pickett:
You really like terpenes. This is your thing.

Kylee Shumway:
I like terpenes. What I-

Tim Pickett:
Or is it cannabinoids?

Kylee Shumway:
Cannabinoids, that’s really… There’s studies on terpenes, and we think that they do the things that we think they do. There’s more science on the cannabinoids, so I’m actually more focused on them. And recently, I don’t know how recently, we have found a whole bunch of the receptors that they interact with outside of the endo cannabinoid system, which has been fascinating for me.

Tim Pickett:
Oh, describe what you’re talking about.

Kylee Shumway:
They interact with GABA receptors. They interact with the TRP receptors, serotonin receptors, so receptors that we would think of classically as outside of the endo cannabinoid system. They are involved in a bunch of pathways in our body, which is so incredible, and it’s why we get the effects that we do. But terpenes, we don’t know if they interact. Well, we know they don’t interact directly, most of them, with the endo cannabinoid system, but we don’t know how they interact with these other systems now, that we’re finding that cannabis interacts with.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I love the science of cannabis, but I also… A lot of times we say, “Yes, there’s plenty of evidence. There’s plenty of evidence.” And there is for certain things. Does it work for pain?

Kylee Shumway:
Yes.

Tim Pickett:
Yes. Does it work for this? Yes. But there’s so much that it’s kind of daunting how much we don’t know.

Kylee Shumway:
And the more I learn, the more I know, the more I know how much we don’t know, which makes me more careful now, speaking about cannabis, than when I first started, because there’s so much minutia that we don’t know. There’s a ton of mechanisms of action that we don’t even understand yet. We don’t know how it works. We just know that it does work. Which is true for a lot of medications, so it’s not something that’s overly concerning, but it just shows me how much we don’t know and how much more research we should be doing. We need more, better science.

Tim Pickett:
We need better science in a lot of fronts too, but cannabis is… There’s just a glaring hole in side-by-side studies. The double blind, randomly controlled stuff, then the side-by-side, does cannabis work, does THC work against Ativan? Does THC work against Prozac? Does THC work against… Where there’s-

Kylee Shumway:
I don’t know if we even have anything like that.

Tim Pickett:
Where there’s side-by-side stuff-

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah.

Tim Pickett:
No, I’ve never heard of anything like that. And there needs to be stuff like that so we can say, “Look, in these types of patients, comparing these two medication modalities, this tends to work better or this doesn’t.” Yeah, that type of thing we’re really missing. I don’t even know if we’ll ever get there.

Kylee Shumway:
I believe that we will. I just wish it was faster. It’s hard for me to have to wait on something that I know is important and we need the information, and just because it’s a schedule one drug, I can’t get the information that I need.

Tim Pickett:
Are there things about the program? Could you say what’s your favorite thing about program, or what might be working well with the program? I see you kind of smirking. Don’t smirk. And then, or, alternatively, we can talk about what is not working in the program, what we think we want to change.

Kylee Shumway:
I think there’s a long list of both of those questions. I’m glad that we have a program. The fact that we have a program here in Utah is astonishing. That is good. I think the program being so focused on education and having medical providers and healthcare providers working together the way we are is so important. I love that about the program. There are fiddly bits in the program though, that are so hard to work with. MJ Freeway is so hard to work with.

Tim Pickett:
This is the software program that does seed to sale tracking, and it also is, there’s a sister of it that’s called the electronic verification system, where we house all these patient deadlines and certifications, and then MJ Freeway’s also tied into the retail.

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah. It’s access to point of sale. And I don’t know if it’s robust enough for a medical program.

Tim Pickett:
How about the limited medical provider program? Have you interacted with that program yet, since they launched it last week?

Kylee Shumway:
All of my pharmacists are signed up to do and work in the EVS with the limited medical providers, but I have not had a single patient come to me with a limited medical provider-

Tim Pickett:
With a letter?

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah.

Tim Pickett:
You’re the second pharmacist… Here, it’s been launched for a little less than a week. At the time of this recording, we’ve been a little less than a week for the limited medical provider program. There are 16,000 controlled substance licensed providers in Utah, who basically received the ability at this to authorize 15 patients with medical cannabis. That’s a lot of providers, it’s a lot of patients. There are 14 pharmacies and I have not talked to a single pharmacist who’s interacted with that program one time yet. I’m not saying it’s a-

Kylee Shumway:
I’m not surprised.

Tim Pickett:
I’m not saying it’s a bad program, but it is, and I am saying that, I guess, but I don’t know. I don’t think it’s going to do what they think it’s going to do.

Kylee Shumway:
I am not surprised you haven’t seen anything, because how… I know, I’m sure they sent an email to all the providers, saying this is available, but how many of those provider are actually going to sit down, truly read that email, understand the implications of the email and then act upon it. They don’t have any resources. They don’t know where to go to start. They don’t what pharmacies to call. They probably-

Tim Pickett:
I think there’s still people that come into my clinics who don’t know weed is legal in Utah.

Kylee Shumway:
Exactly.

Tim Pickett:
Let alone a provider who is knee deep in COVID and medical practice and all this stuff now-

Kylee Shumway:
And a million of-

Tim Pickett:
Thinking, okay, I’ve got to learn all this stuff so I can write a letter, when I didn’t yesterday and I was just fine.

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah, and then-

Tim Pickett:
Yesterday, I was fine without it. Today, I’m probably fine without it. I just-

Kylee Shumway:
Exactly. And some of them aren’t going to want to write the letter and hand it to the patient. They’re going to have to track down a pharmacy that they can then fax it to. I think there are just some logistics of the program that make it difficult and very… Maybe not as accessible as they had hoped it was going to be.

Tim Pickett:
Well, to me-

Kylee Shumway:
That’s the diplomatic way-

Tim Pickett:
Last Monday… Yes, thank you. And on Monday, I talked to a patient who was having a bad trip, a very bad experience. We care for a lot of people in once in a while, somebody has a problem. And as the program grows, the number of phone calls we get about this actually grow too. Surprise, surprise. And I thought after this phone call, she was headed to the ER-

Kylee Shumway:
Oh my goodness!

Tim Pickett:
This patient was headed to the ER, “I am freaked out of my mind. I took an edible. I know I took too much, but I’m headed to the ER.”

Kylee Shumway:
Oh my gosh.

Tim Pickett:
I was thinking to myself, as an LMP, what would I do? Where would I-

Kylee Shumway:
You would send them to the ER.

Tim Pickett:
What would I even do? Yeah, I’d just send them to the ER. I wouldn’t even know the questions to ask. That part of it, to me, worries me for patients, because I want my patients to have a good experience and so I want the providers to be educated. I know we’re spending a little time on this and I’m on my soapbox now, so I’ll stop and we’ll get back to the real thing, but you and I… Kylee and I, for those of you who are listening, Kylee and I talk every couple of weeks. We’re involved in a medical cannabis advisory group that’s semi-related to the Utah Cannabis Association and this is important stuff to us, right?

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah. To me, this is important.

Tim Pickett:
Together, we see a lot of people.

Kylee Shumway:
Holy cow, yeah.

Tim Pickett:
Okay, so that’s Wholesome, and Wholesome, I love… The whole outreach side of Wholesome is good, and I can see that they’re really encouraging you to do research and videos and talk about this stuff, right?

Kylee Shumway:
Yes. They give me almost total free reign to do the research that I think is important, to put together educational material that I feel like is important. They really have allowed me, they have deferred to me on all of these things, that I’m like, “Patients need this. QMPs need this. Other PMPs need this. And then patients’ caregivers need this information.” And I have been allowed to do whatever I feel like is important for the… Because I see so many patients that I was starting to get a really good idea of what people know and what they don’t know, or what more information they would like to have, or information for their spouse or someone like that, that maybe isn’t going to take cannabis, but is going to be with them on this journey.

Tim Pickett:
Yes, and you’re repeating yourself over and over, and then finally saying, “You know what? We should have a handout.”

Kylee Shumway:
I should have handout for this. And I’m happy to repeat it over and over, but maybe if I have this handout, they can come to me with other questions, more in depth questions for themselves, that are more relevant for them If they have some information up front. Now we have a booklet that we hand out, we have tons of educational material. We do cannabis night school, we try to do other educational videos. I go out into the community and do education. And not just for patients. I’ve done it for QMP’s offices, I’ve done it for healthcare providers that just have questions, that aren’t QMPs.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, and here’s a plug. A plug for your education is twofold; one, Cannabis Night School, if you missed Kylee and I talking about terpenes at Wholesome’s Cannabis Night School, check that out.

Kylee Shumway:
That’s fun.

Tim Pickett:
And two, Kylee is on a ton of videos on Discover Marijuana on YouTube, and if you are not subscribed, as everybody loves to say, slam that subscribe button on Discover Marijuana on YouTube and you can watch Kylee and I talk about all kinds of things on those videos, that were just wrapping up that season, season three of that channel. That was really fun.

Kylee Shumway:
I enjoyed that so much. And I still get text messages from people that are like, “I saw you on TV. I saw you on YouTube.” But, “Oh my gosh, I saw you. I loved that.” And I get text messages all the time from people that I used to know from school and stuff.

Tim Pickett:
Oh really? That’s great. Yeah, it’s just a fun project. It kind of puts you on the spot to be videoed and then have a question asked, now all of a sudden you’ve got be like, whoa, I got to know what I’m talking about here.

Kylee Shumway:
I’m glad we did it. It got me ready for some other things that I got myself involved with. It was-

Tim Pickett:
Talk about those, because you’re involved at the legislature now. We were talking before we started recording, every Wednesday, it seems like you’re up there during the session, all day.

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah, last Wednesday I was up there a ton, and I was trying to balance being at the Capitol building and doing all the things that I need to do up there, with some meetings and some stuff that I needed to do at Wholesome. It was-

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, what’s your role at the Capitol?

Kylee Shumway:
Actually, while I’m at the Capitol, I am now the medical director for the Utah Patients Coalition, and that is a volunteer position. I don’t get paid for that, but-

Tim Pickett:
Got it.

Kylee Shumway:
That is actually why I’m up there, is I’m helping the Utah Patients Coalition with whatever they need, essentially. I am their expert on cannabis and patients and we are doing some stuff with a psilocybin taskforce bill, and so I’m also their expert there.

Tim Pickett:
Okay, just stop right now. Let’s talk about psilocybin. I have never experienced psilocybin.

Kylee Shumway:
Psilocybin?

Tim Pickett:
Psilocybin, but there’s some really cool research. There’s some really cool research about it.

Kylee Shumway:
It’s some amazing research coming out. They actually were able to do a blind… A double blind or just blind, head-to-head study with escitalopram and psilocybin. Escitalopram is an SSRI. It is an antidepressant, for those of you who don’t know. They did a head-to-head with it and psilocybin was outperforming it on a whole bunch of different scales that they were using to look at it. I don’t want to get too into the study, because I haven’t memorized the study, but I did read it and understand it. It was amazing. And they had done one last… Johns Hopkins is doing a bunch of research on psychedelics right now.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, PTSD, smoking and addiction research.

Kylee Shumway:
Depression, anxiety.

Tim Pickett:
The depression, the death, dealing with death, I think, is another big issue-

Kylee Shumway:
Cancer patients, that was the big one.

Tim Pickett:
Cancer patients, mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kylee Shumway:
Death, yeah acceptance. Accepting that you’re going to die. The results that they’re having are incredible. Sometimes I’m reading it and I’m like, how did we miss out on this for so long?

Tim Pickett:
This is different than cannabis, because this is specific and extremely accurate, seemingly extremely accurate, data-driven science on something that [crosstalk 00:39:42]-

Kylee Shumway:
On hard science, the real-

Tim Pickett:
It’s not wishy-washy. This is legit stuff.

Kylee Shumway:
No, and this is the kind of science I want to see done with cannabis.

Tim Pickett:
Yes, but they’re not doing it, but for some reason… Okay, what’s the bill that is proposed? There’s a psilocybin bill at the Utah-

Kylee Shumway:
What we’re trying to propose is we’re going to put together a taskforce. A bunch of healthcare professionals, people at the Huntsman Mental Health… Oh my goodness. A bunch of people, a bunch of professionals-

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, the Neuropsychiatric Institute.

Kylee Shumway:
Thank you. We’re going to bring together this taskforce where they will meet almost all this year, look at the research on psilocybin, see who, what, when, where and how, and hopefully, in October, we would have them presenting what their findings were, what we envision… I guess not we, I guess the taskforce, what they would envision that that would look like in Utah. What the clinics would look like, who would need to be involved, what kind of laws would need to be written, and then hopefully a bill would be in the works after that to pass it medically, possibly.

Tim Pickett:
Basically, we’re looking at a taskforce that would study it, get the experts, do a big report for maybe the Department of Health, where they say, “Okay, here’s the research, here are different programs that exist, here’s what it might look like in Utah, based on current law-

Kylee Shumway:
Here’s our opinion on what it should look like.

Tim Pickett:
Here’s our opinion on what providers should be licensed to do this, what the visits might look like, what the patient qualifications would look like, and so we’re essentially maybe two years away from a bill. If you get a taskforce passed and some money to do the studies, you’re looking at a couple of years to get something done.

Kylee Shumway:
Yes, it’s a few years out.

Tim Pickett:
It’s fascinating though.

Kylee Shumway:
It’s fascinating. I don’t even know where to start. There’s so much good information, there’s so many things to be excited for about it. It’s almost overwhelming, but the taskforce bill hasn’t passed yet, as far as I know, not as of today, but I’d love to see it pass, so at least we could look at it, the possibility of it. This is just looking at the possibility. This isn’t a bill to legalize anything. We should just look at it.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, this is just a little bit of money to look at it, and so what… Have you seen any language on a bill or proposal to update the medical cannabis program up there?

Kylee Shumway:
There is some language on… There’s a lot of language going on. There’s a lot going on, and I’ll know a little bit more tomorrow. This is just the first week, and there was not a lot of people at the actual Capitol building. It wasn’t as crowded as it usually is. But there’s some stuff-

Tim Pickett:
There is a pandemic.

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah.

Tim Pickett:
COVID’s not real up there.

Kylee Shumway:
It felt that way.

Tim Pickett:
Apparently.

Kylee Shumway:
I was accosted by one man that asked me why I was wearing a mask.

Tim Pickett:
Well, I don’t even know if I want to get into this.

Kylee Shumway:
I just did, because it felt like the right thing to do. It doesn’t matter what my opinion is on it.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah. It just felt like the right thing to do.

Kylee Shumway:
So I did.

Tim Pickett:
I don’t know, when I work in the ER, I wear a mask.

Kylee Shumway:
I wear a mask all day when I work in-

Tim Pickett:
Surprise, surprise.

Kylee Shumway:
… the compounding lab.

Tim Pickett:
Yep.

Kylee Shumway:
I wear a mask all day.

Tim Pickett:
And if you were working around somebody with the flu-

Kylee Shumway:
Wear a mask.

Tim Pickett:
… it’s a good idea to wear a mask. I would recommend it. As a medical provider, if you’re working around somebody with the flu, it is my medical opinion, professionally, that you should be wearing a mask.

Kylee Shumway:
I love this for us.

Tim Pickett:
That’s all I have to say. That’s all. That’s all I have to say about that. Okay, you’ve got the psilocybin bill and we haven’t seen language on what’s coming up for the cannabis bill, but between you and I, I think we’ve got patient protection?

Kylee Shumway:
Yes.

Tim Pickett:
Right?

Kylee Shumway:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim Pickett:
We’re going to-

Kylee Shumway:
We’re working on-

Tim Pickett:
Pretty much a lot of patient protection stuff.

Kylee Shumway:
A lot of patient protection stuff. A lot-

Tim Pickett:
because there was the firefighter up North.

Kylee Shumway:
Yes.

Tim Pickett:
Hey, by the way, we had a firefighter come in and get his card, specifically because he was like, “This is bullshit that guy’s getting fired-

Kylee Shumway:
Good for him.

Tim Pickett:
… and I’m getting my card, because-

Kylee Shumway:
Because you should be able to.

Tim Pickett:
… if they’re going to fire more… Because we all should get our cards as in support. Then fire us all, and they can’t fire us all.” I thought it was pretty cool.

Kylee Shumway:
I love that. Good for him. Good for him. Yeah, we’re going to change some language around firefighters and police. There’s some stuff about caregivers cards in there. The LMP was a big one. There’s a lot of stuff. A lot of it hasn’t been decided, so I hate to say it and then have it just disappear into the ether.

Tim Pickett:
I know. I know. The patient cap thing, we always talk about that-

Kylee Shumway:
Oh, the patient cap thing. Have we heard anything about that?

Tim Pickett:
Not that I am aware. I’m I’m working hard. If anybody knows how to get this done-

Kylee Shumway:
I swear I saw someone post something on social media that was like, “We got it taken away.” I’m like, did we?

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, no. Yeah, we’re definitely having patient caps and we’re definitely going to have a problem this year, because all of the QMPs are going to expire. All of the first year QMPs like me, we’re going to expire and there’s going to be a lot of QMPs, this just happens, that have moved out of state and they’re leaving us with 200 patients and where the hell do those patients go? They’re going to be lost. I think, my proposal is that we allow a QMP to authorize another QMP in their group to take over their patients. I’m the QMP, I saw 200 people. I’m going to move to Oklahoma to take this hepatobiliary job and I’m going to leave, so I don’t want to leave my patients in the lurch, so I’m going to authorize Tim or Adam or whoever in my practice group to take over my patients. They’ll just add them to their… Doesn’t change their patient cap, per se, but it just allows me to see those 200, those specific 200 people-

Kylee Shumway:
Then you don’t have orphan patients.

Tim Pickett:
Exactly. Just take care of the orphan patients, because this year, the orphan patients issue is going to be big.

Kylee Shumway:
It’s going to be a big deal. And there are some… A lot of my patients, I get phone calls and they are like, “How do I renew my card?” If they’re not sure how to renew their card, because it is a little convoluted, how are they going to find a brand new QMP when they’ve been abandoned? And abandoned isn’t even the right word.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, that’s a bad… But it kind of is. We don’t want them to be abandoned.

Kylee Shumway:
But I feel like they’re being abandoned-

Tim Pickett:
We want to support them.

Kylee Shumway:
… so I use that word.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, we’re leaving them. We’re leaving them in the lurch and saying, “Hey, well, whoever you went to-

Kylee Shumway:
They’re gone.

Tim Pickett:
… they’re gone, so good luck.”

Kylee Shumway:
Okay, bye. I feel sad for them, because some of them are… Maybe they’re not as good with technology. Maybe they’re a little bit older. Maybe they need a little more hand holding, and a lot of them are going to get left behind.

Tim Pickett:
Okay, back to back to cannabis, back to weed, what’s your favorite delivery form?

Kylee Shumway:
I prefer a tincture or a gummy, because generally I need longer term relief. I also find them to be more discreet and that can be really important when… It’s pretty much just important for my whole life. I’m not going to carry a cannabis vape to the Capitol building.

Tim Pickett:
No, I don’t think that’s a…

Kylee Shumway:
Well, I’m not going to.

Tim Pickett:
I guess you just do what you got to do.

Kylee Shumway:
Well, other people could do whatever their heart desires. I’m not going to.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah. It seems like an odd thing, an uncomfortable thing to put that thing through the metal detector.

Kylee Shumway:
I don’t want to.

Tim Pickett:
Empty your pockets and your vape pens.

Kylee Shumway:
I’m not having that conversation with the guy with the gun.

Tim Pickett:
Nor, we already have to have conversations about the masks, so might as well not add to that problem.

Kylee Shumway:
I had just finished-

Tim Pickett:
That’s a rough-

Kylee Shumway:
It was such a strange interaction. I had just finished the interview that I was doing with Fox 13, and this guy just comes up to me and he’s like, “Who are you? Why are you wearing a mask?” What?

Tim Pickett:
Well, sir, I am a weed pharmacist.

Kylee Shumway:
Oh. Yeah, it was… I’m obviously still shocked by it, because I’m talking about it, but yeah, there’s just… I like a little more discreet usage form and I generally need longer acting, and then I prefer lower quantities of THC and higher quantities of CBG or CBD. That, I can really pick and choose that when I use a tincture, or even a gummy. We have so many good gummies right now that have great ratios.

Tim Pickett:
Name a few.

Kylee Shumway:
Boojum makes some great one to ones. [Q-ga 00:49:41] makes good one to ones. True North, I think they do some, and Standard does.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, True North is-

Kylee Shumway:
I can think of a bunch of ones that I can use ratio products that way, which is what I prefer.

Tim Pickett:
Yep. Well, as a compounder, you can also, I think pretty soon, you’ll be able to get higher CBG tinctures, meaning you could just buy a CBG, CBD tincture over the counter-

Kylee Shumway:
I can put them together the way I like.

Tim Pickett:
Right, then you could put them together in your body the way you like. And I think that’ll be fun, especially with tinctures going forward, when we have more minor cannabinoids as their own products, because you can’t compound in the THC world-

Kylee Shumway:
Not yet.

Tim Pickett:
At least that’s not in the bill.

Kylee Shumway:
Someday.

Tim Pickett:
Right, we’re not… Maybe someday, but people could. You could design a product for somebody, say, “Hey, go home, take three drops of this, two drops of that, half a slug of that and call me in the morning.”

Kylee Shumway:
And that’s something that I do with the gummy and the tinctures. There’s a lot of great tinctures. There’s one to one to ones, there’s one to one to tens, there’s one to ones, there’s one to fours, there’s one to 25s. You can get a whole bunch of ratios. And I like to put them together with the relief I need, and generally lower THC, because I do have… It makes me anxious. I don’t want anxiety. I’m using this and I don’t want to get anxiety from it.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, we want anti.

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah, a lot of the times I am using it for evening pain. For some reason, it seems to be this thing where everybody’s pain is worse at night. That’s why I love the tinctures. It’s why I love gummies. They’re just so easy for me to put together the way that I want them to be. There’s not a lot of guesswork for me when I’m using that kind. I think inhaled forms are great. I just can’t seem to get the cannabinoids that I want in them right now. But I think that will change.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I hope so.

Kylee Shumway:
I hope so.

Tim Pickett:
I’ve been doing a lot of recommending on layering. Layering a cannabinoid product, like CBG, THC or one to one to one, like CBD, THC, CBN in the oral form, and then adding an inhaled form on top of that.

Kylee Shumway:
I love that.

Tim Pickett:
Plus, you’re getting the cannabinoids. Where you’re not getting the CBN and the flower, you’re getting it in the tincture, so you’re mixing forms, and I think think what I’ve been recommending a lot.

Kylee Shumway:
It’s such a great way for patients to use their cannabis. They can get immediate relief and then long term relief and it’s so… I think it’s almost comforting in a way, that they can have that and use it that way. Because they know that they’ll have something for breakthrough pain, but they’re not going to have to use their inhaled form every two hours or something, maybe the way they don’t want to. I love that.

Tim Pickett:
They can dose it to a way they’re not high all day either, and then if they need to be high-

Kylee Shumway:
They can be.

Tim Pickett:
They can get there, they can be, and that’s not going to last as long. I think this has been really fun. It’s fun to watch people reduce their medication use and it seems fun to be involved.

Kylee Shumway:
I love it.

Tim Pickett:
You and I, we have a lot of that. We’re a lot alike.

Kylee Shumway:
I love when people come back and they’re like, “Oh my gosh, I’m off 15 of the medications that I was taking for my back pain.” And I’m like, “That’s great!”

Tim Pickett:
What’s the best way for people to get involved right now, do you think? Or get maybe even in touch with you, about the legislative effort-

Kylee Shumway:
Oh man, through UPC would be a great way. I am super involved on the UPC’s, the Utah Patient Coalition’s social media, I can see messages that come through there, but you can also send us emails and I’ll do everything I can to get back to you. But I would love to hear from people.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, but if you go to the Utah Patients Coalition site, you can go to the contact us page and you could reach out there. But social media seems like a great way to go too.

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah, social media is easy. We do have a Facebook page and then we have a public Facebook group that we allow public discourse on. You can get on there, you can put a comment on there, you can ask a question. The page is private, but the group is a public group that you can post to.

Tim Pickett:
Oh, that’s cool. And then you’ll update how the bills are going there, hopefully.

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah, we have quite a few updates on there about cannabis stuff, and I think we posted three times in the last couple days, because there’s been enough information coming forward that we’ve been able to post a little bit more, and I’ve had some really good help with that, from Des and a new girl we’ve been working with. Her name is Haley. It’s been amazing. They’ve been really helpful, because I can’t do it by myself.

Tim Pickett:
I’m sure you can’t, no. It’s too big of a job to do. And especially with you being involved so heavily, full-time at Wholesome, and the program is really just growing so fast. Is there anything that you feel like you want to say, you want to talk about?

Kylee Shumway:
Man, we covered so much. I just want people to reach out, ask me questions, even if you think they’re stupid. I bet they’re not. Let’s talk about stuff.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, I bet they’re not. And whether you’re a patient or not-

Kylee Shumway:
Yeah, I don’t care.

Tim Pickett:
You’re cannabis curious, that doesn’t matter. If you have a question for Kylee and or you have a question for me, for that matter, reach out on WholesomeCo, their website from the pharmacy standpoint, Utah Marijuana.org. If you have a question for… Even if you have a question for Kylee and the only place you can find is to go to YouTube, the Discover Marijuana channel and make the comment there, we’ll get you the comment. We’ll answer the comment and the question. If you have a legislative priority or something that you think is very, very important, we’re-

Kylee Shumway:
I want to know.

Tim Pickett:
Kylee, she’s right here.

Kylee Shumway:
I want to know about it.

Tim Pickett:
The medical director of the Utah Patients Coalition. This is the person to reach out to and talk about it, so that know. We’re interacting with the program more than anyone else.

Kylee Shumway:
I’ve had a lot of people reach out to me with opinions and I want to hear them all, because I’m just one person and there’s only so many things I’m going to think of on my own. If we don’t have this public discourse, if we don’t have people asking questions, if we don’t have people making suggestions, I won’t be able to think of every single thing.

Tim Pickett:
Right. You’ll only be thinking about the stuff that you see.

Kylee Shumway:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, yeah. Well Kylee, thanks for coming on. Kylee Shumway, pharmacist in charge at WholesomeCo, and medical director of the Utah Patients Coalition. Congratulations.

Kylee Shumway:
Thank you.

Tim Pickett:
On both. You’re living your best life.

Kylee Shumway:
I’m living my best life. My dream.

Tim Pickett:
Yes. And for those of you who aren’t subscribed to the podcast, Utah in the Weeds, download it on any podcast player that you have access to. Thanks so much Kylee, for coming on and talking to me.

Kylee Shumway:
This was so fun.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, it was. All right, everybody. Stay safe out there.

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