Broken Brain’s Dwight Hurst interviewed Utahmarijuana.org physician assistant (PA) and qualified medical provider (QMP) Tim Pickett on a recent podcast. Their conversation started out with a cursory introduction in which Tim made it clear that he was all about helping patients by educating them on Medical Cannabis and how to effectively use it.
Tim’s introduction to Medical Cannabis came by way of personal experience. His sister is a cancer patient who has used cannabis to help with pain. Tim also worked for a time in general surgery and trauma, giving him first-hand experience with patients suffering from extreme pain for whom standard pain medications don’t work. He finally came to cannabis when a friend of his began a growing operation and encouraged him to start his own Medical Cannabis clinic.
Early in the conversation, Tim and Dwight’s discussion dealt with cannabis legality in Utah. They talked about how some other states have had legal cannabis for years while in Utah, many people have been purchasing the drug out of state and bringing it back in. Tim mentioned seeing one patient who had been using cannabis for years before it became legal. She was introduced to it by her daughter after she complained that her prescribed medications weren’t helping her.
The discussion eventually turned to a lack of education among both medical providers and patients. Tim insists that there is plenty of scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of Medical Cannabis. It’s just that medical providers aren’t aware of it. And because they don’t know, they aren’t passing the knowledge on to their patients.
Tim and Dwight closed the conversation with a brief discussion about ongoing research and further education. Overall, the discussion was really focused on educating people new to the Medical Cannabis space in Utah and elsewhere.
Dwight Hurst:
Hey, y’all. Welcome back to Broken Brain. This is your host, Dwight, coming back at you again to talk about all things mental health and just basically things that are interesting enough to blow our minds and break our brains about. I am joined today by Timothy Pickett. He’s a physician’s assistant. He is also an advocate and an educator for the topic of medical marijuana and how that can be used, particularly with different kinds of disorders that have to do with psychiatric care, psychotropic medication, sort of types of uses anxiety and such. Also, to chronic pain. Do you go by Tim or Timothy?
Tim Pickett:
Tim.
Dwight Hurst:
That’s what I thought, but I’ve been wrong before about names. It’s Michael usually. I have a good friend who’s a Mike. But then I’ve known a bunch of Michaels who are like, “It’s Michael. It’s not Mike.”
Tim Pickett:
It’s Michael. Right. I knew one Thomas. But mostly, I know Toms.
Dwight Hurst:
And Tims are notoriously laid back and cool to work with. That’s what I find.
Tim Pickett:
Wow. Okay, great. Famously.
Dwight Hurst:
Famously, go by Tim.
Tim Pickett:
They famously go by Tim.
Dwight Hurst:
Timothys. It’s that guy in the Bible, but he’s not been around for a while.
Tim Pickett:
Yup.
Dwight Hurst:
I bet he went by Tim. Want to go with my majority Tim experience. Oh, this is a great start, Tim. Tell everybody a little bit about who you are and what you do. I’m very excited. I’ll let everyone know to talk about this. As you mentioned, as we were setting up, it’s been a long time since the topic has come up. And the last time I had someone on to talk about medical marijuana was way back before there were a lot … It was the same states that it always had medical marijuana for years, and years, and years. And we’re seeing it all over now. So, I’m really excited to talk about it, really excited to hear.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, it’s an exciting topic. So, yeah, I’m Tim Pickett. I am what you would consider a medical cannabis expert. I’m a medical provider. I’m a PA, a physician assistant. I run a clinic operation that sees patients, evaluates patients and does a lot of education. We work in Utah. And that is utahmarijuana.org is the website and kind of this educational platform that we have.
Tim Pickett:
Like we were talking about, we do a podcast called Utah in the Weeds. And we really want to and I really want to personally, destigmatize cannabis as a medicine. But I want to do it in kind of our unique Utah way. Like treat it with the respect that I think it deserves. I’m not a huge fan of adult use coming to Utah. That’s kind of what I call the recreational market. Because I think that’s a stepping … We should take a stepwise approach to it.
Tim Pickett:
But yeah, that’s who I am. I have kind of gotten into this medical cannabis space in a roundabout way. And I’m excited to be here and talk about it. Because I think from a mental health perspective, there’s a lot of myths around cannabis. And I think it can be pretty helpful. But I also think it can be a little dangerous when it comes to mental health.
Dwight Hurst:
No, and that’s some of the ins and outs that I’m looking forward to talking to you about is what are those benefits and what are the risks and things. That’s one of the things I think is helpful about having an intelligent conversation really about anything. I guess the lack of nuance and intelligent conversation is something that a lot of people kind of miss nowadays.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Dwight Hurst:
And wish there was more of. So, how did you get into working with that? Did you have feelings about it before you were exposed to treatment as a professional and how did you become aware of cannabis medicinal use?
Tim Pickett:
So, I graduated high school in ’96. That’s the year California passed and allowed medical marijuana clear back, now it’s been 25 years ago. So, I’ve always been supportive of this, of I’m a person of free choice. That’s my belief. So, I think adults should be able to choose what they want to do, if they can get educated about it. So, I’ve always been a prepper opponent of it.
Tim Pickett:
And in that regard, sure, I’ve always wanted it to come to Utah, but I never thought it would. I thought we would be the 50th state probably to allow it. We’d have to be pulled, kicked, kicking, and you’d have to drag us through.
Tim Pickett:
So, I got involved or I kind of knew about it, I have a sister who has colon cancer. She lives in Washington and it was available to her for the chemotherapy. I have, one of my best friends is a recovering addict and used it to help him quit alcohol after trying over and over abstinence. And so, I have these personal relationships with people who’ve changed their life essentially with cannabis.
Tim Pickett:
But I also work in the hospital in general surgery and trauma for six years. And when you treat somebody with chronic pancreatitis who has a flare up, and they’re in the hospital, they have extreme pain, nausea, they cannot eat, and the medications that we use now are just not as effective as cannabis could be.
Tim Pickett:
And so, when it came to Utah, and a friend of mine, who is one of the growers here in Utah, everything kind of came together for me in kind of middle 2019, where there’s this opportunity to get involved to teach people and to start a business in this space. And there’s this opportunity to help people learn about it in a legitimate way. Maybe we can get it into the hospitals one day.
Tim Pickett:
But yeah, I saw my first patient I think it was January 11th, 2020. I think we saw 11, 12 patients that month. And that’s how it all started. It was like scary to write that first recommendation. It was really scary. Because here you are writing a recommendation for what you have been taught as an illegal substance. It’s still federally illegal. And you’re telling somebody, “You know what I think you should go out and do, Dwight? You should go out and use cannabis. Here you go.”
Dwight Hurst:
I think, because it’s something that unless you work in the medical field or the addiction field mental health, nobody usually says cannabis casually either. So, there’s that feeling, I’m projecting maybe but if I’m writing a prescription, it’s like, “You should use this much cannabis. There’s a medical thing and it’s researched. And I’m doing it as a professional.” But is it hard to get away from at first that feeling of like, “You should get some weed?” You know what I mean? You didn’t say it that way?
Tim Pickett:
No, I mean, exactly.
Dwight Hurst:
It’s not professional.
Tim Pickett:
Right. In the beginning, you’re talking about this and you’re asking people about their marijuana use. And it’s totally awkward. And it is really awkward for patients still. So, yeah, you see 11 patients in January, you see more in February, and then the doors come off last March when the first dispensary or pharmacy opens up. And it becomes much more comfortable for me to ask people about their cannabis use. And I don’t care.
Tim Pickett:
You want to call it weed, marijuana, ganja, grass. It doesn’t matter to me. It’s all the same thing. And I use the term “medical marijuana” in all of my website because I want people to understand what I’m talking about right from the beginning. And there’s nobody who questions when you use the word “marijuana.” There’s no question about what you mean, right?
Dwight Hurst:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
They know what you’re saying.
Dwight Hurst:
No, no, exactly.
Tim Pickett:
Right. And yeah.
Dwight Hurst:
Talking about in terms of professionality and saying in a way that is medically…
Tim Pickett:
Right, yeah.
Dwight Hurst:
It’s a very interesting thing that as you put it is very different and more different for some than others. One of the interesting things we’re going through is living in a world where we have precedent for this and other states, and those of you who maybe live somewhere where this has been legal for a long time or those of you who maybe live in a place where marijuana use is still maybe completely outlawed, it’s interesting to see the evolution of in the state of Utah right now. It’s in infancy kind of state as far as practically implementing any kind of legality around use of marijuana, even medically, right?
Tim Pickett:
Right. And your listeners come from all over. Like you say, there’s going to be people who totally have had legal weed for years and you can use it adult use, recreational, medical, some I’d like to say that people in California or people in Colorado, they live in our future because they’ve seen the evolution. They’ve seen this start. They saw the process where we’re at where we’re seeing a lack of … The patient count is growing. There’s an interest in this.
Tim Pickett:
There’s also a growing amount of pharmacies, we call them in Utah, that can provide, that can sell the product to patients. And yet, there’s still this lack of availability. There’s not enough flower. There’s not enough weed in the state for everybody who is legal who wants to buy it.
Dwight Hurst:
Interesting.
Tim Pickett:
And you still, you still have to drive sometimes. Like in St. George, Utah, you might have to drive 300 miles to the closest legal dispensary.
Dwight Hurst:
Does that come into play with having to do it within the state where you are prescribed? There’s no real federal rules because it’s federally illegal, right? So, I guess-
Tim Pickett:
I mean, the only federal rule is, yeah, you cannot go to Colorado and legally bring it back because you have to break federal law. I don’t think that’s going to change anytime soon. I think that there’s a lot of things we have to do to break down those barriers. But yeah, you have to buy your product in Utah. You have to be a medical patient in order to get into those dispensaries to make those purchases. So, there’s still a lot of barriers to use in this state, let alone other states that don’t have access yet.
Dwight Hurst:
Yeah, it’s an interesting thing when you look at the medicinal use and people don’t think about it. On the one hand, as you already said, there’s a conditioning. We have to think of the seriousness of using as an illicit drug. On the other hand, it’s sort of like sharing prescriptions. It’s highly illegal. It’s a risk, legal, a big legal risk.
Dwight Hurst:
But at the same time, people are like, “Oh, you have some pain? Well, I got something.” And many people, especially those who haven’t been interactive with the legal system, don’t think a lot about picking up some gummies in Colorado and driving back to Utah. Oftentimes, like you said, that’s a federal violation of law and there’s a big risk involved.
Dwight Hurst:
And at the same time, I’ve known people over the last few years, previous to the law changes who, let’s just say you wouldn’t ever peg them as somebody that would purchase marijuana and never have, never would anytime before, but then it’s like chemo pain or other things or replacement for opiates and things. And they will cross state lines to where it’s legal and bring it back to the state for themselves or their loved ones.
Dwight Hurst:
And so, there’s been a lot that’s happening even without it being … Well, when it’s officially legal, people can look at that from a medicinal standpoint and we can research and find, it’s happening more in the open, you can actually measure and that must be nice as a medical professional to be able to actually see what’s happening.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, completely right. And I mean, the two things to what you’re saying is, and we get a ton of patients who come in, and their only experience is getting it from somebody else, which is, of course, it’s illegal to give somebody else marijuana in general, but that’s how people get exposed to this. And that’s how people really find out that it might work.
Tim Pickett:
The 62-year-old woman who comes in and says, “I have PTSD, I’m in behavioral therapy, and I’ve been on Zoloft and Xanax and Ambien for 10 years and really not a lot of change to my condition. But I know Ambien is not that great. I don’t want to take it forever. Obviously, the benzos I don’t want to take forever. So, my daughter gave me a five-milligram gummy. I slept like a baby. And now, I’m thinking, ‘Wait, maybe there is some legitimacy to this.’ And I started talking to a couple of friends. And lo and behold, there’s a couple of friends that use cannabis.” And that’s the introduction that we hear a lot.
Tim Pickett:
To the other point about research and this honesty, we have been, I find that our patient base, totally anecdotal, I can’t quantify this, but people are not very honest with their medical providers with what they’re taking, what they’re not taking.
Tim Pickett:
And we find that in our patient population, that they’ll leave and they’ll say, “Can you just be my primary care because you’re the only person I’ve ever been honest about my real drug use, my real medication use. I’m not taking the medications that I was prescribed for this because I don’t want the side effects, but they keep prescribing it to me every three or four months. And I don’t take it, but I don’t tell them.”
Dwight Hurst:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
“And I’ve been using cannabis instead to help me sleep. But I don’t tell them.”
Dwight Hurst:
And you think about that, what are some of the reasons that you hear or why do you think that is that people don’t do that?
Tim Pickett:
That’s a great question. When people report it to me, it’s because they don’t feel comfortable talking about it or they have brought it up before and been shut down by their provider. The provider says, the common responses that we know are, “I don’t know anything about it, so I’m not comfortable with it. It’s illegal for me to prescribe it.” So, the legal part of it.
Tim Pickett:
And then the other one is the evidence. There’s just no evidence to support medical marijuana use for your condition. And that really is just a lack of education. All of those. They’re just a really a lack of education in the science that’s been done. There’s a lot of science out there with cannabis. There’s a ton. There’s a ton of research.
Dwight Hurst:
That’s been around a while, I think is an understatement. For those who maybe don’t know, what are some things to where we’re seeing research show efficacy and treatment? What are some things that cannabis is supplanting, replacing, assisting? What kind of conditions are people benefiting?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, I think the main one that has been proven is chronic pain, chronic physical pain. In 2017, the government released a report where they did the research, the National Academies of Science, our own scientists, they determined that cannabis is really good for chronic pain. And it helps people reduce their opioid use and it helps people feel better. So, it’s treating the pain itself.
Tim Pickett:
There’s two things that go along with pain. There’s the pain physically and there’s the suffering that goes along with the pain. And cannabis, THC is really good at helping people with the suffering associated with their pain. It’s not going to make the pain go away. It just it has a tendency to take your mind off the pain so that you can go for that walk. And then you start to feel better.
Dwight Hurst:
That’s interesting. So, it’s interacting with sort of the same thing that I’ve seen with chronic pain as a psychotherapist is that a lot of the work therapeutically is cognitive behavioral, which has to do with reduced attention paid or distraction or thought interruption, things like that. It’s interesting.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, there’s a huge number.
Dwight Hurst:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, absolutely. There’s a huge number of chronic pain patients. When we look at the, like the veterans, the VA data, there’s a huge number of chronic pain patients that are on SSRIs, that need behavioral therapy for the depression, the anxiety, the lack of sleep associated with the pain. That negative feedback loop is causing that, is causing a bad cascade of events in the brain. And cannabis is really well suited for that type of situation where you’re treating both the issue, but you’re also treating the side effects of the issue, depression, anxiety, PTSD.
Tim Pickett:
So, that’s good for chronic pain, probably the best. But more than 80% of cannabis users will tell you they use it for anxiety. And anxiety is a little tricky because cannabis is what’s called biphasic. It’s maybe good for anxiety at low doses, but then when you overstimulate the receptors in the brain with THC, you get an anxiety response and a paranoia response.
Tim Pickett:
So, you probably hear that this strain or this product gave me a lot of anxiety and so I don’t want to use cannabis and that’s an issue with education and people using too much. One of my, kind of my soapbox to keep this medical for a while is to teach people that you know when you smoke three joints a day and it causes anxiety, maybe you want to adjust.
Dwight Hurst:
Well, and that gets into the real difference. It’s funny when you say low doses because even just anecdotally, as I’ve had clients of mine tell me things over the years, those that actually benefit and say, “Oh, my anxiety meds or benzos or things I was getting hooked on. And so, I started using marijuana in one form or another.” When I hear that, those that have had long term, I’ll say, success as far as it hasn’t been problematic and it hasn’t led to any other issues, is when they’re using very small amounts.
Dwight Hurst:
It’s funny as you say that, they’ll be like, “Yeah, I just do this every other day, just this tiny bit, or whatever it is,” as you put it, which if you think about it is a lot more like how we’re supposed to engage with medicine.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, right.
Dwight Hurst:
If it has a big crossover to large amounts or it’s recreational, and for my anxiety-ish, then you see the attendant problems of low motivation or sometimes cross addiction and things like that sometimes come up.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. And then the last thing that I think is really cool in mental health therapy, especially with PTSD is cannabis shuts down dreams. It just is. It’s pretty well studied that reasonable doses of THC is going to depress your ability to dream.
Tim Pickett:
And so, for people with, for night terrors, trouble going to sleep, there’s a sweet spot there where you, again, keep the dose low, but it seems like this 7.5 to 10 milligrams THC is this spot where there’s not a ton of psychoactivity so you don’t get woken up. But people really report not having as much dream, I don’t know, dream activity. So, it becomes really good for the PTSD patient that can’t sleep. And I think everybody would agree that sleep is like low hanging fruit. If I can sleep better, sleep a little longer, the rest of my life gets better.
Dwight Hurst:
No, it’s one of the main things that we do talk about and I know the prescribers talk about when it comes to antidepressants, mood stabilizers, things like that, that sleep is, yeah, king. It’s very, very big. Obviously, I didn’t know that about the dream suppression. That’s really interesting, especially for those that are having nightmares.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. It’s a nice simple, simple kind of when we’re in western medicine, we always want a simple thing, one drug one response. We treat one symptom. And that’s a place where cannabis does pretty good. You’ve got nightmares, cannabis is reasonable at suppressing those and helping people sleep without dreams.
Dwight Hurst:
I’m curious as a prescriber and a medical professional, what do you look at as kind of an ideal administration way? I think one of the things that is still a hang up for a lot of people is I’ve never had a doctor say, “Hey, here’s some medicine. You should smoke this right?” Or whatever.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, yeah.
Dwight Hurst:
So, I don’t know. And obviously, at dispensaries, they do sell the smokable, I mean, showing my ignorance here…
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, smokable flower, right?
Dwight Hurst:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, right? So, in Utah, specifically, Utah has a law against flame use. So, we’re unique. There’s a handful of states with this same law, but you can use the bud, you can buy weed, raw flower, but technically you can’t smoke it.
Tim Pickett:
So, we know that the primary way people consume cannabis in the US is still smoking. But they’ve restricted that in Utah. So, what you have to do, let me see the reason they did that. The reason they did it is because when you burn weed with the flame, you inhale combusted plant material in addition to the THC. So, the combusted plant material is not helpful. It’s just harmful to the lung tissue.
Dwight Hurst:
And it’s like smoking anything, right?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, I mean, you smoke anything, you’re going to get that smoke in your system. That’s not good. It doesn’t cause cancer that we know of. But it does cause chronic bronchitis and emphysema and COPD. And so, the other thing is, is there another alternative to get that inhaled flower like the medicine? And there absolutely is.
Tim Pickett:
You buy, it’s like a battery-powered pipe. It’s called a dry herb vaporizer. And it heats the flower up to temperatures between 320 and 450 degrees. In that range, you activate more than just the THC. You activate other cannabinoids in that range and then you’re inhaling the vapor. And that allows more of what we call the entourage effect. So, you’re getting more of an experience because you’re using it at the appropriate temperature and not causing the problems that the combustion causes.
Tim Pickett:
So, takes a little bit of getting used to. But from a delivery standpoint, you can still use flower in Utah. And I encourage my patients pretty much everywhere, I would encourage people if they’re using a flame now, try a dry herb vaporizer because while it takes a little bit to get used to it, and it is a little different, it doesn’t hit quite as hard. If you can learn to use a vaporizer, you can manipulate your cannabis use to get more out of it at different temperatures, and still, it expands the range of possibilities.
Dwight Hurst:
It’s interesting to be coming across as pro vape.
Tim Pickett:
Right, right.
Dwight Hurst:
Pro vape use coming from the medical community.
Tim Pickett:
I know, right? And really, it’s just this idea of flower being vaporized. And that’s not the oil.
Dwight Hurst:
Right, right, I see you’re saying very specifically, right?
Tim Pickett:
From another delivery … Yeah, it’s very specifically. But vaporized cartridges are reasonable as long as you’re buying them from a reputable source and they’re tested. Buying vape cartridges on the black market is just not a good idea, way worse of an idea of buying weed off the market.
Tim Pickett:
But when it comes to delivery, kind of to get back to your question on what to use, it really depends on the patient and what they want to get. If you want to sleep a little better, then using something oral, an edible, a gummy, a tincture, an oil. That’s going to last six to eight hours. So, that’s a really good thing to take at night. And if you can adjust the dose with an oil and take five or six drops, that’s perfect.
Tim Pickett:
The drawback to that is it takes a while to take effect. I mean, the edible weed, it’s going to take an hour to get really in your system. So, some people need to microdose or use more of a long-acting during the day and at night and then use for what we would call, you and I would call like breakthrough anxiety or those triggering events with pain or mental health, use some inhaled method. It’s quick onset. Within a few minutes, you’re going to feel better. And then it’s not going to last as long. Flower might last three or four hours. A vape cartridge might only last you one or two hours.
Dwight Hurst:
One of the things that I’m glad to hear you talking in terms of is you’re talking about it in terms of like, for example, if I’m prescribed anything, I have to kind of take into account when do I take it? Do I take my mood regulator? Do I take that in the morning? Do I take some at night? Well, my doctor is going to tell me when to do it. And I’m going to do that. And it orients around the efficacy of the desired medical result.
Dwight Hurst:
And do you feel like because it’s about marijuana, there’s some crossover where people sometimes are like, yeah, legalize it. There’s kind of like attitude of like fun. Where’s the fun? It’s like, well, this is really a treatment.
Tim Pickett:
Right. Well, the great thing about marijuana is that it can be both. And most use is going to be medical in my experience. Most of my patients are going to use it most of the time for their medical purposes. They’re going to get home at night. They had a rough day. Their knee hurts. They’re going to use it a little bit. Do they feel better because they get a little psychoactivity? Yeah, sure a lot of them do. And a lot of them like that.
Tim Pickett:
So, the alternative for them is take an opioid at night or take this and when you talk about the risk-benefit, they’ve decided and I would tend to agree, that the cannabis is the better option. Then you have people who are really strict about just using it for the medicine. They don’t like any of the psychoactivity so they only use it in that way.
Tim Pickett:
And you have people, the fun part is you have Saturday afternoons. You know you have the musician who knows that this strain is going to make that creative presence be more accentuated. And so, they’re using it both. They use it because they don’t like their dreams at night. But then on Saturday afternoons, they want that jam session to be really creative and so they’re able to manipulate their use to get both the fun and the medicine out of it. And that’s it’s one of the things that I love about cannabis medicine is I don’t care, I get it. You want to do both? And that’s okay.
Dwight Hurst:
Yeah. I do think that that contributes to some of the concerns. Because one of the concerns about intoxicants in general has always been … Well, let’s put it this way. There is an extreme response sometimes against something because it potentially is a pleasure-seeking behavior and pleasure-seeking behavior is sometimes demonized, and culturally demonized. And so, I wonder if that’s part of it, as people are like, “Wait a minute, I don’t want you enjoying a thing I think you shouldn’t?”
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, boy, we’ve had that history here in Utah. We try to control that. Of course, these are my opinions about cannabis use in general. So, I can see the argument, especially from my peers wanting to maintain that really strict medical use of whatever they’re recommending. I just don’t necessarily think that takes human nature into account. And I’m somebody who believes that people, once they learn that it’s okay to experiment a little bit with this in a safe way. I think it’s okay if they make that decision to seek pleasure, because we do that anyway, don’t we?
Dwight Hurst:
That’s the thing that I think of when I look at it is, and speaking of being honest, a lot of times, people will come into therapy and be pretty open. They’ll be pretty open about things. So, I can say, honestly, when it comes to any kind of prescription, people are experimenting. It’s not always for pleasure. It depends what it is, right?. It depends what it is. Not everything has a pleasurable result.
Dwight Hurst:
But when it comes to things like alcohol and opiates, and anything that has that kind of psychoactivity as you put it, the crossover.
Tim Pickett
Mm-hmm.
Dwight Hurst:
There’s, you know, we’re not really dealing with reality if we think people are not experimenting. Let me put it that way.
Tim Pickett
Right.
Dwight Hurst:
It’s something that I’ve … And we’re not dealing with reality if we think that those things are completely safe.
Dwight Hurst:
One of the things that I think is tricky is when people talk about the use of marijuana medically, the legalization, decriminalization, sometimes the concerns I hear are concerns. It’s not that they’re not concerns to say like, what about youth? What about accessibility? What about this? What about that? But I think that it ignores some of reality. And as you put it, compare it to opiates.
Dwight Hurst:
If I hear someone say, “Well, I don’t know about the medical use of marijuana,” makes me wonder how many times have I ever heard that person say, “Are we really looking hard at the way opiates are being used? Or is that something we all just kind of have accepted over time. And now, we want to go ahead and say, ‘Here’s something that’s actually in a way, potentially trying to replace and address some of the harmful effects that opiates do.'” When’s the last time we had a big old rally about blocking opiate use? Or you’re relooking opiate use?
Tim Pickett:
Right.
Dwight Hurst:
I mean, they exist, but I don’t hear it as much as … It’s kind of sexier to get in the fight with marijuana on either side. And so, I’m always like, when people are complaining about it, have they been complaining about opiates the same with the same amount of energy?
Tim Pickett:
Right.
Dwight Hurst:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Right. And I think to your point on the other side, too, I would say that cannabis has become this lightning rod topic that a lot of people can get behind antitraditional medicine, really this deprescribe movement that’s, I think, just barely starting to reduce the use of other prescription medications.
Tim Pickett:
But cannabis is really just a tool for that movement. It’s a tool to explore something different in medicine. Not necessarily is cannabis, in my opinion, going to solve all the world’s problems. I mean, there’s a lot of really promising things we can do with cannabinoids. But-
Dwight Hurst:
You lose a little credibility if you were saying that.
Tim Pickett:
Exactly, right. So, yeah, I think there are some really promising alternative medications that will come after cannabis.
Dwight Hurst:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
And so, I think cannabis has its place, but it’s not going to solve all the world’s problems. And just by legalizing it for everybody doesn’t fix all of the problems. I think even people who are advocates wish that it would.
Dwight Hurst:
Well, and I think we can see that. And people who have listened to the podcast know that my biggest bias about anything that someone comes on the show to talk about is if they talk about it and it’s like, “Oh yeah, it’s all good. It’s not bad. It’s just as amazing.” Anybody who comes … I always am happy to hear nuance and understanding and intelligence when we talk about the thing.
Tim Pickett:
Right, yeah.
Dwight Hurst:
So, when you’re talking about that and talking about it very much in terms of the medicinal use, to me that’s a really good sign for it. And that’s what I’m hearing. And well, I don’t know. For me, I’m not a doctor, but it seems like there’s a lot of risks with alcohol use recreationally, although it used to be prescribed during prohibition. That’s a whole nother program.
Tim Pickett:
Right. I’ll be interested to listen to that one.
Dwight Hurst:
That’s a whole nother thing is the way that we encounter intoxicants has always been very socially controlled and is very interesting, right?
Tim Pickett:
Right.
Dwight Hurst:
Anything that has psychoactivity associated with it. It’s like why did we decide that it has the place it has. President Obama came under fire because I think he made a comment once that pot was safer than alcohol.
Tim Pickett:
And we could talk a little bit about some of the real risks that aren’t discussed a lot with cannabis use.
Dwight Hurst:
I want to hear your opinion on that. Yeah. What are the risks?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, I mean, so I work some shifts in the emergency department now and I still work a few days a month to keep my skills up and to try to keep my reputation amongst my peers. But we see in states with legal programs, legal pot programs, there is an increase in overdose in the ERs and there’s specifically adults plus kids, underage people using too much THC, coming in sick.
Tim Pickett:
Now, do they die? No, they don’t die. They want to die sometimes because they feel terrible and it causes high heart rate, causes people to just throw up, just throw their guts up.
Dwight Hurst:
That’s a myth, right? I mean, I’ve heard people say, “Well, you can’t OD on pot.” And it’s like you’re not going to die.
Tim Pickett:
Well, you can’t die.
Dwight Hurst:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
You can’t use enough THC to kill yourself. There hasn’t been any studies, evidence. They have tried to kill apes with high doses of THC, they cannot. They’ve given them 9000 milligrams of THC.
Dwight Hurst:
Oh my gosh, yeah.
Tim Pickett:
But you can’t die, but you can definitely feel terrible. And the ER visits go up in programs or in states with that effect. The other thing is there is some concern and growing research that using heavy doses of cannabis THC when you’re younger and you’re developing that endocannabinoid system, there tends to be a correlation between some psychological illnesses later in life, bipolar, schizophrenia. And we don’t know enough about that yet. But we know that’s a little risky. So, we want to keep kids away from using a lot of cannabis when they’re younger because we think that correlates to bad outcomes.
Dwight Hurst:
Kind of makes sense. I mean, the psychoactive substances like alcohol that you do want to keep away, especially from kids that are under, 21 isn’t just a made-up number completely.
Tim Pickett:
Right. It isn’t just made up. The other section of the population that we need more information about is pregnancy and breastfeeding. We don’t want to give it to breastfeeding mothers because we know it crosses the blood-brain barrier, which means it crosses that barrier to the baby and the breast milk. We know that it crosses into the fetus. And pregnancy, you get into some nuance with, well, is the medication and the vomiting and that worse than the cannabis. So, those are individual discussions to have, but-
Dwight Hurst:
They have the same discussion about antidepressants. There’s a lot of times where there’s questions about whether or not those should be taken during pregnancy. And that’s exactly the same balance. I’ve seen doctors and clients have had take, which is like, but am I going to be suicidal during my pregnancy? And what’s the risks there?
Tim Pickett:
So, it’s the same exact-
Dwight Hurst:
Yeah, it’s not without precedent.
Tim Pickett:
It’s the same exact discussion, right?
Dwight Hurst:
It’s not without precedent at all. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Right. And the real issue, I think it comes down to is educating our medical community, so that we can now give good advice based on some semblance of science. And it’s not all rosy. But at the same time, there’s a lot of benefit. There’s a lot of potential benefit relative to other things that you might already be taking or that you don’t want to take, especially in the mental health realm.
Tim Pickett:
It’s my understanding that in mental health conditions in the brain, there’s this hardened pathway between the emotional centers of the brain and the logic part of the brain where these pathways just get hardened and they get solidified and it’s so easy for people to say, “I suffer from this, I am this.” And cannabis has an interesting place in that where it actually softens the connection between the emotional part of the brain and the logic part. At the right dose, it modulates and softens those pathways so that if you combo that with behavioral therapy, you can reset the narrative easier than you can without.
Dwight Hurst:
Wow. It’s really interesting.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. It’s a good spot for more research. But we need to research it in comparison to existing therapies. And that I think, while there’s a lot of research about cannabis use and about the safety and the efficacy of it, we don’t have a lot of research comparing one therapy to another with cannabis because nobody has been willing or wanted to pay for it.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, I think the dispensary is just making … I mean, we’re just selling so much weed.
Dwight Hurst:
Exactly, right.
Tim Pickett:
There’s no incentive.
Dwight Hurst:
We already have the market cornered. It’s like, yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Right.
Dwight Hurst:
It’s like I’ve told this story on here before, but when they discovered group therapy, it was because combat veterans from the World War II were having conversations in waiting rooms waiting for their appointments, and largely that’s where a lot of group therapy came from. And I always say, then they found a way to bill for it. So, anyway, so unfortunately, a lot of science can be determined by that if there’s not a financial incentive to have those studies.
Dwight Hurst:
But like you said, that’d be good to know how much are we seeing that. We know that when people take a psychotropic or psychiatric medication coupled with therapy, both tend to work better. But you’re saying there is indication that that correlates as well. But there needs to be more research there, which would be great.
Tim Pickett:
Right, yeah, on that kind of specific thing, right?
Dwight Hurst:
Sure.
Tim Pickett:
And I think that in former podcast episode, you’ve talked a little bit about psilocybin. Potentially psilocybin can actually break those and reset those pathways in the brain. Cannabis doesn’t break and reset them. But it helps people gain a better perspective, essentially, by, I don’t know, people describe it as like emphasizing the now. It enhances your ability to be in the present.
Dwight Hurst:
Like a mindfulness kind of aid is what you’re talking about. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. One of the really cool things about cannabis is the way it works in the brain. And it stimulates areas that are perceiving the present. And it makes it a little hard to perceive the past. It’s this short-term memory problem that we have when the mind gets a little altered, you get a little stoned and boom, that time dilates. And it’s this inhibition of being able to access the past and this memory and this perception of time, because essentially, it’s emphasizing the present.
Dwight Hurst:
I can see that working together. A lot of modern therapy emphasizes present-based thinking mindfulness is all about staying in the moment because memory and imagination interact a lot with depression and anxiety, because it’s like, thinking about what’s gone wrong, what’s going to go wrong. And a lot of times, our current moment is all right. Like right now, I’m safe. Right now, nothing bad is happening this moment. And so, tying into the moment is a big part of therapeutic intervention. So, that’s very interesting how that could work together in tandem with it.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, I think that’s one of the promising aspects of cannabis therapy moving forward. And if we can educate more people and we can use it appropriately, then the potential is there to benefit a lot of people. But you’ve got to do two things. You got to educate them about cannabis, three things, get them access to cannabis, and then fourth, you get access to behavioral therapy, which that’s hard. That is hard in the US and everywhere.
Dwight Hurst:
Access to any of the appropriate medical needs is something that we … We talk about that on here sometimes as well. But it is obviously a big thing. It’s a big thing in our nation. It’s a big thing anywhere for various different reasons with, first, it has to do with insurance and money here in the US, availability of professionals, just all kinds of things that enter into that.
Dwight Hurst:
And it’s interesting as we talk about this, one of the things that emerges is the issues you’re talking about are not different than other medical things. And I think that’s a big takeaway for me from this conversation is, as you say, are we comparing things to things that are comparable. Are we saying, “Boy, there’s some inherent risks and problems with marijuana use.”
Dwight Hurst:
And as you’ve been listing them and talking about them, they don’t seem to be tremendously different from most other medical interventions.
Tim Pickett:
Right.
Dwight Hurst:
And so, that kind of like demystifies it, demystifies, I should say, that process a little bit to say in practical application, it’s just another tool or medication ideally, is what we’re saying.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Dwight Hurst:
Are you a proponent? Or do you think recreational use should be legal under the law or you said, keep it medical for a while?
Tim Pickett:
I like the idea of keeping it medical. My priorities are … I think my peers in medicine are yet to get on board. And I think we have a role to play in the expansion of marijuana as a true medicine. And I think if you skip this step of getting us all on board, then you’ll lose the benefit of medical cannabis to a huge number of people that really could benefit.
Tim Pickett:
So, to me, it really is this stepwise approach I think that we need to get the medical community on board first. Once the medical community is all on board and we’re all experts in cannabis, and everybody is able to use it, write prescriptions and recommendations for it and understand it as another tool, then I think you can move to the adult use in a much more like the population safer and you could really change the world.
Tim Pickett:
Do I have high hopes that that will occur? Yeah. I don’t know. I think the industry is so powerful and it will become so much more powerful that I think we might get rec use before, I would say we’re ready.
Dwight Hurst:
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, once again, the money behind it. And when there is money to be made and it’s with something that is psychoactive or interacts with our own compulsions. And I will say when it tickles around the issues of addiction, and I know that’s a dicey word to use with marijuana. But look at the way that food has been marketed. Look at the way cigarettes were marketed.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Dwight Hurst:
So, yeah, that’s an interesting point as you bring that up. And I think we are not good in society with a balanced approach to how we implement things. It’s kind of swings all or nothing is what you’re saying.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Dwight Hurst:
And now, it’s interesting to see. There’s a lot of passion that you have. And I imagine that being in a situation to where you can now use that to benefit patients as a tool, there’s got to be a lot of emotion attached to that for you. Because you’re very passionate about patient care.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I mean, I love to help people change their view on medicine. I like to give people that permission to experiment with their own health a little bit. And so, to me, that’s where the emotion comes from is just, it’s that lightbulb moment where you give somebody permission to think outside of the typical prescription. And you can say, you know what, you can try this or this or this, it’s okay. It’s okay.
Tim Pickett:
And if you get not enough and you don’t feel enough, then the next time you can take a little more. And if you feel a little too much, you can turn on Ferris Bueller and eat chips all afternoon, and that’s okay. It’s okay. And they can take that next step.
Tim Pickett:
So, my emotion comes from that, helping people understand that they can take control of their own health. We have been asking patients to take control of their own health for generations. And now that we have cannabis, a lot of the medical community will say, “Well, we didn’t want it to be that way. We wanted you to eat right and exercise and not take medications, but we didn’t want you to smoke weed in order to get there.” And we don’t get that choice.
Tim Pickett:
As the medical community, we get to say, “No, we are asking you to and we are trying to help you to take care of yourself.” And cannabis is a great way to have those discussions with people and get that light bulb to turn on. And it’s not going to work for everybody. But it’s exciting to be a part of.
Dwight Hurst:
That’s great. To have your passion here as we’re talking about it and your experience here and to hear that, I think it’s important for people to understand kind of where that’s coming from. And I appreciate you being able, I should say, just I appreciate being willing to make the time to be able to do that. Those who are listening now don’t know that I screwed up when I recorded.
Dwight Hurst:
When I recorded on my calendar that we were going to meet, I thought it was today and it was yesterday. And you were kind enough. So, essentially, from your perspective, I just didn’t show up yesterday.
Tim Pickett:
It still is fine.
Dwight Hurst:
And so, I was grateful, extra grateful that you were able to, willing to do that today. One of the things I ask all guests at the end is if they have a charity that they’d like to take a moment to highlight, it doesn’t have to be connected with what we’re talking about, but certainly can. Are there any charities that you particularly feel attached to you that you’d like people to be aware of?
Tim Pickett:
Great question. So, we donate some money every year at the end of the year based on what my staff decides. And you know what, we donated the money to elementary schools. So, as far as I’m concerned, donate to your PTA and your local public school. I think they need it, especially in Utah, they need it. And I have a connection to the school system in my life. And so, yeah, that’s where we put our extra money.
Dwight Hurst:
Yeah, I love that. Go down to your elementary school and see what they need.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, see what they need, because they need time and money.
Dwight Hurst:
That’s the thing too, is that’s a great outlet for when money is a hard time, too, they need people, too. There’s no people there. It’s just what they have. And that’s a great one. That’s a great one to highlight. Tell everybody again where they can find you, about your podcasting and just where they can learn more about this topic.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, I mean, the best place to connect with me and to learn about what’s going on in Utah is utahmarijuana.org. That’s the website and organization that I run. You can listen to our podcast, Utah in the Weeds is basically cannabis culture in Utah. We talk to the Department of Health and patients and just a good place to learn about cannabis in Utah specifically. And that’s available on all the podcast apps, Utah in the Weeds.
Tim Pickett:
But utahmarijuana.org, it’s a good resource. There’s a lot of Frequently Asked Questions there, a lot of information about how to become a patient or can I become a patient. Of course, there’s links there to get ahold of us and schedule. But that’s where I would go, for sure.
Dwight Hurst:
Tim, thank you so much.
Tim Pickett:
Thanks, Dwight. I’m really excited to have this opportunity to talk about this with you and kind of expand the knowledge.
Speaker 3:
Thank you for listening to the Core Temp Arts Podcast Network. To listen to more Core Temp Arts shows, visit coretemparts.com.
Cannabis patient Vanessa Nielsen is a middle-aged breast cancer survivor still on the road to recovery. She is also a cannabis artist and a major proponent of Medical Cannabis in Utah. Her journey with cannabis began as a teenager, growing up with parents she described as “hippies.”
Nielsen went from recreational use to self-medication when her husband died in a car accident. [12:46] Between PTSD and depression, she needed something to help her cope. However, she did not want to take Valium or Xanax because these prevented her from working. She decided to use cannabis instead. She has been using now for 30 years.
Following her breast cancer diagnosis in 2019, Nielsen underwent a bilateral mastectomy. [03:23] She could only take the post-surgery pain medications for three days before she couldn’t deal with their side effects. So instead, she asked her doctor for an ibuprofen prescription and then combined that with her own cannabis use. Nielsen says the cannabis allowed her to recover from surgery without any additional narcotics. [16:47]
One thing Nielsen talked quite a bit about was the fact cannabis actually doesn’t eliminate pain. [21:48] Neither do narcotic pain medications. All of them just help you deal with the pain better. Nielsen prefers cannabis over narcotics because they still allow her to fully function.
Tim, Chris, and Vanessa’s conversation briefly turned to different types of products and Utah’s expensive pricing. [32:56] Pricing and Utah regulations are two things leading Nielsen and her boyfriend to leave the state and take a year-long road trip while she continues cancer recovery. [37:23] Nielsen will be selling her cannabis-based art as they travel.
You are going to love this episode if you like to hear from patients with no medical training or political bent. Vanessa Nielsen is just your average patient trying to get by.
Chris Holifield:
All right, let’s get going. This is episode 65 of Utah in the Weeds, the big 65, Tim.
Tim Pickett:
How long have we been doing this? A year and a half.
Chris Holifield:
About a year and a half now.
Tim Pickett:
So episode 65, it is Independence Day coming up. Happy Fourth of July to everybody from Utah in the Weeds.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. There’s parades going on this year and fireworks. So get out and enjoy it. And don’t burn down the mountains-
Tim Pickett:
Don’t use a flame to burn down the mountain. Maybe the flame law in Utah was a good thing, because now we’re in a drought.
Chris Holifield:
Who’s on the podcast today? Vanessa Nielsen. This is a heck of a story on the podcast today, Tim.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. This is a serious one. I was fascinated with the conversation with her. She is somebody who suffered from breast cancer, has history beyond that.
Chris Holifield:
A PTSD history. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
PTSD history, but has been a longtime cannabis user. And I like the evolution of her story with cannabis and how she was using it and learning so much more about cannabis. This is good for people to hear because she’s somebody who grew up here. And people didn’t know-
Chris Holifield:
That she was using cannabis.
Tim Pickett:
That’s right. It’s great for people to talk about and she feels much more comfortable about it. It’s just a good conversation I’m excited to have people listen.
Chris Holifield:
We’re going to be going on a new podcast schedule. For releases, typically we release every Friday at 4:20 AM. For the summer, at least, we’re going to go to an every other week.
Tim Pickett:
Yup. It’s been exciting that all the pharmacies have been coming open, and we’ve been talking to so many people. And I think this will be good for us to do in every other week schedule for a little while.
Chris Holifield:
I think I’ll allow listeners to even catch up with some of the back episodes. It will allow Tim and I to get out a little bit more. Because I don’t know about you, but last year I didn’t really have much of a summer. So this year, I’m getting out and going to enjoy things-
Tim Pickett:
Going on a couple of trips.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
So it’ll give us a little bit more freedom. And everybody, just know, we’re still here, just going to be great episodes every other week for a little while, at least.
Chris Holifield:
Utahmarijuana.org, go spend a lot of time there because, I mean, you can go to slash podcast, obviously, and listen to the old podcast, like Tim was mentioning, but there’s a lot of other articles on there too and a lot of other valuable information that can consume your time on those off weeks, right?
Tim Pickett:
That’s right. There’s 64 other episodes to catch up on.
Chris Holifield:
Exactly.
Tim Pickett:
So you’ve got your work cut out for you.
Chris Holifield:
Anyway, we’re in every podcast app out there. So make sure you subscribe, leave us a review. And if you don’t have anything else to say, Tim, let’s get into that conversation with Vanessa because this was a good one. I enjoyed it. So, here we go.
Chris Holifield:
You got any plans for Fourth of July?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Just put my studio in my trailer.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Why are you putting your studio in your trailer?
Vanessa Nielsen:
I’m actually going on a year adventure.
Tim Pickett:
What the.
Vanessa Nielsen:
I’m calling it my healing journey. I bought a motorhome the beginning of April. It’s a 36-footer and a 28-foot trailer and I’m taking my art on the road to cannabis art.
Chris Holifield:
You’re going on this healing journey because of your cancer?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Yes, I was diagnosed with breast cancer in February of 2019. And I went through a lot of really radical treatment to get to where I am now. I’m no longer in my career. I’ve had to retire early until I am stable enough to go back to work. So that’s been tough. So, I’m going to take it on the road. I’m just going to go travel around the US and see what happens.
Chris Holifield:
Do you have a goal in mind or?
Vanessa Nielsen:
I do.
Tim Pickett:
You have kind of mapped out?
Vanessa Nielsen:
A little bit. But I don’t want to be on a timeline, time constraints, or we have to be here at a certain time. I just want to take it easy and just go and see and be one with nature, do my art and be with my dogs and my boyfriend, and just enjoy things. I had a really close call with death during my cancer treatments, so that has shifted my world. I was in the same career for 30 years. Can’t go back to it, so now I’m moving forward. It’s what can I do now. So I do my art and I’m kind of I’m hippie, I’m kind of hood.
Chris Holifield:
So you’re going to sell your art on the road, right?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Yes, hopefully.
Chris Holifield:
Hopefully, that’s the idea.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Yes. And it’s not to make the money. It’s just more to spread the awareness and cannabis. I mean, I don’t do just cannabis art but that is my forte.
Chris Holifield:
And you have a special Instagram or Facebook for your art. Let’s start right there.
Vanessa Nielsen:
It’s @UniquenessCreations.
Chris Holifield:
Okay.
Vanessa Nielsen:
That was a name that my friends came up with after they saw what I was doing. And they’re like, “Why don’t you sell this stuff?” And what I was doing, I said, “Giving it away.” Every time I would make a piece, someone would come to that piece, I think of their name. My buddy Brad Wheeler did a great piece for him. And it was just to share it, because I was trying to fill my time with something that I could do when I couldn’t do what I was normally doing.
Tim Pickett:
So take us back to February 2019. What’s life like at the time before you got diagnosed with cancer?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Actually, prior to, I was working a lot of hours. I raised my kids. I have a daughter who jumped out right when I was diagnosed and was going to the U. So it was like, wow, okay, everything shifted. I was working 12-hour days, I was really burned out, I was really stressed, and that diagnosis took me sideways. I had plans. As soon as our youngest turned 18, we were going to move to Oregon, buy a 20-acre plot of land and I wanted to commercially grow. And because I wasn’t able to do anything about that in Utah, that was my go-to. We had an offer in on a property. And as of my diagnosis in February, everything, the bottom fell out from my job. This property up in Oregon, I mean, just everything imploded.
Tim Pickett:
How did that happen? Did you just go to a routine screening?
Vanessa Nielsen:
No, I actually found it myself. I’ve been very diligent. I lost my mom 16 years ago, she was 51, from the same breast cancer gene. Her sister also had it at 32. So, when I found this particular lump, I knew, I was mortified. I knew, I went to the doctor, and it all went really fast after that. I didn’t have any treatment prior to surgery. They wanted to do the surgery first. It had a pretty hefty growth rate. So that was concerning. I was stage three, grade three, and a proliferation rate of 67%. So it was moving fast.
Tim Pickett:
Did you already know you had the gene?
Vanessa Nielsen:
No. And the reason being is when my mom was diagnosed with breast cancer, 16 years ago, she was 50 when she was diagnosed, gene testing was so expensive back then. They didn’t offer what they offer now. They didn’t have the genetic companies coming forward and saying, “Hey, this family member is tested positive. We’re going to offer the immediate family these free tests so that we can give them the awareness that they may need moving forward.” So, I didn’t get tested. And there’s misconceptions out there. I didn’t really want to look at it, because I watched what it did to my mother in 11 months, she was gone. I mean, it just took her out. And she was healthy my whole life. So she got sick and died.
Tim Pickett:
At 50?
Vanessa Nielsen:
At 50. So it was pretty traumatizing. So over the years, my misconception in my mind, I don’t know if it was me trying to calm my own fears, but I thought that there was a genetic skip from generation to generation. And then I was worried about my daughter. But now that I’ve done all the research because it hit me, of course, then you really dive in and look at it. Yeah, it’s pretty scary.
Tim Pickett:
How old were you when you were diagnosed?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Forty-eight.
Tim Pickett:
So you’re doing self-exams all through really your whole life, probably, just because of the fear?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Yes. Well, I started getting mammograms early due to my mom’s cancer, her being young, what it was. So I was doing my mammograms faithfully. I just hadn’t gone in yet for that mammogram for 2019. And so when I found it, it was interesting, because I had been so rundown and just so exhausted. My immune system was shy. I didn’t have the energy and the pickup that I had before.
Vanessa Nielsen:
So for a couple years, I was trying to figure out, I kept telling my doctor, there’s something wrong. I can’t quite put my finger on it. Little things here and there that would come up and it’d be like these symptoms. Why? I eat right, I exercise. I work hard. It’s not like I’m sedentary. And then all of a sudden, bingo, that came up. And they said it could have been growing for two to five years or could have been in my system ready to activate for two to five years before I actually found it. So that blew my mind. Maybe had I done some precursor work after my mom passed away, maybe I would have been in a better situation.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, it’s tough to say. So you go into treatment and surgery immediately?
Vanessa Nielsen:
I went into surgery immediately and had a bilateral mastectomy. It was torturous to say the least. And I had great doctors. I mean, they did wonders with me. And I did fairly well. They were shocked. And they used to say, “You’re so optimistic. We don’t get it. You come in here and your all smiles and you’re always kind to everybody and happy.” And I’m like, “What else are you going to be?” I’m not going to lie down and die. That’s just me. So, I had to do a lot of mind trickery through it to pull myself into a position where I could heal from it. I was scared to death I was going to die. I wasn’t sure I was going to make it to the 11-month mark, which is where my mom had passed away.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, wow. Yeah. I mean, you’re looking into the future and thinking, well, I’ve seen this before.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Yes. And I was terrified, absolutely terrified, terrified to lose my hair… My mom absolutely would not do chemo. She refused. Hers was stage four. Her rate of recovery was so low that she just chose quality over quantity. So she didn’t do chemotherapy. She did radiation. But within that 11 months, just watching the cancer take over every possible portion of her body and the wasting away, and then they’ve come a long ways with surgery. I told my doctor, I said, if I have anything of an experience like my mother had with this mastectomy, I don’t know what I’ll do. I can’t recover from that. So they were very conscious when we went in. And like I said, they did me well. I had a lot of great doctors on my team but I think a lot of it had to do with the mind trickery that I would pull, the meditation, and cannabis use.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Did your mom have cannabis?
Vanessa Nielsen:
She did not. Towards the end when she was immobile and not doing very well, I actually approached her about it. She’s from the ’70s. My parents were hippies. What can I say, they smoked weed back in the day when I was a little kid. So, she had gone away from that in her career. But once I introduced it to her, she said, “This stuff’s way too strong,” like it’s not what they in the ’70s. So it was hard for her but it helped. It helped to ease some of her pain and allow her to eat or be able to get out of bed and do different things that were okay the first six months, and then that last five months was absolutely not mobile.
Tim Pickett:
So you had cannabis throughout this whole period. I mean, I love Chris’ question. Usually he asks this question. Take us back to the beginning.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, where it started, right?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Actually, my beginning with cannabis, I am an old soul, I’ve been probably 35 years. And it was introduced to me by cousins that were a little bit older. And back then it was here and there. But over the years, I did have some tragedies happen. I lost my husband to a drunk driver. And I think that that is probably when my heavy consumption really started. It was to numb it and deal with it without antidepressants or they wanted to load me up on Valium and Xanax so I wouldn’t feel.
Vanessa Nielsen:
The thing is I just needed to numb enough to be able to cope and do my job and get through life. I can’t take Xanax and just have everything stop. So, I used a lot of cannabis and it got me through. It helped me emotionally. I had a little bit of PTSD from it from his accident and different things that have come up. So, it helped. And over the years, it always helped. So, I’ve never been one to take pain pills. I’ve never been able to take pain pills. So, my go-to versus Xanax or pills or antidepressants has always been cannabis.
Tim Pickett:
Did you grow up here in Utah?
Vanessa Nielsen:
I did.
Chris Holifield:
So you’ve been consuming here in Utah then for 30 plus years?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Absolutely, yes. And that is hard for me to admit. A lot of people know me.
Chris Holifield:
Nothing wrong with that, though. I mean, I think a lot of people are coming out and talking about it and being open about it.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I mean, we talk to people all the time who’ve grew up here in Utah, and they were growing it in the ditch or they were growing it in the mountains.
Chris Holifield:
Over a premium, right? What’s his face. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. So it’s been here the whole time.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Absolutely.
Tim Pickett:
Right. And getting to know people, like humanizing the people’s use of cannabis, hey, that’s been around a long time, we’ve been using it for the same stuff we’re using them for today.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
We were using it for 20 years ago, 15 years ago, 10 years ago. And here you are. Were you open and honest with this?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Okay. So, here’s the curious thing with my doctors. Right directly after my surgery, they had put me on I believe it was oxycodone.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, Percocet, OxyContin, oxycodone, yeah, I mean, I did it for years.
Vanessa Nielsen:
So, I came home and I was absolutely sick. I could not-
Chris Holifield:
Came home from?
Vanessa Nielsen:
From the hospital.
Chris Holifield:
Okay.
Vanessa Nielsen:
On those prescriptions and they said do not let this pain get ahead of her or she’ll be in trouble because of the mastectomy. And it was a major surgery.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, no. I’ve been involved in these surgeries in general surgery. We’ve had breast surgeons that have come in and they do these big bilateral surgeries. It is…
Vanessa Nielsen:
It’s heinous to say the least.
Tim Pickett:
It’s a bloody mess. It’s extremely painful for the patients. You’re really just tearing the skin apart, taking all that tissue out and just-
Vanessa Nielsen:
Scrubbing it down. I can imagine all the things.
Tim Pickett:
And then you’re just trying to let it heal on its own. It’s pretty bad.
Vanessa Nielsen:
So when I got home from the hospital the first couple of days, of course, my family, my boyfriend, bless his heart, he was dosing me every four hours. He’s writing it down, making sure. And I was so sick that not only could I not stay awake, which is probably a good thing, but every time I was awake I was heaving. I would heave and dry heave. So, it was about the third day in, I said, absolutely not, I can’t take this. I’ll take ibuprofen. I’ll take anything but these narcotics that are making me this sick. I ended up cracking a rib from throwing up. That’s just after my surgery.
Vanessa Nielsen:
So, when I went back to the doctor’s office, I just explained to him I can’t do this. They tried a couple of different things, Lortab, Percocet, it’s all the same for me. Same things happen. Some are worse. But I just told them I’m good. Just prescribe me some ibuprofen 800, I’m good, I’ll go home and I’ll just handle it. They look to me like, okay. And at that point, I was scared. I was scared to say, okay, so I have a backup plan.
Vanessa Nielsen:
And to you guys not knowing, cannabis is my backup. And it’s working. So, I just need some Ibuprofen. It took me probably six or seven months into treatment before I finally looked at my oncologist. And he said, I don’t know how you’re doing this. I had nerve impingements. I had frozen shoulder. I mean, it just went through the gamut of all the things that come with surgery and being immobile. And then starting the chemotherapy and stuff.
Tim Pickett:
You’ve got to get through the surgery. You’ve got to recover from the surgery to a certain point before you start chemo, right?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Correct.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, I think it’s important for people to understand that, too, because your immune system is not functioning really well. You don’t heal as well with this big cancer in your body. So they do the surgery first and then they have to let the body heal enough to start the chemo, because the wounds won’t heal if you start chemo too early.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Yes. So I think I went four weeks in between my first surgery and then I started chemo. So within that four weeks, I took those pain pills maybe three days after, and then the rest of time I used cannabis. And that was a heavy cannabis use, I’m not going to lie. And that was-
Chris Holifield:
How heavy? What are we talking about? An ounce a week or two ounces a week or what?
Vanessa Nielsen:
I’d say probably a couple of ounces a week.
Chris Holifield:
Nice.
Vanessa Nielsen:
And it was keeping things at bay. I wasn’t able to really get up and move around. I wasn’t quite mobile yet. So that was hard.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Vanessa Nielsen:
But it kept the nausea down. Actually, it took the edge off the pain enough to where ibuprofen worked where I wasn’t losing my mind with pain. That was the most excruciating thing I’ve ever experienced. Even now, I still have a lot of residual pain from it. But wow.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, that’s a lot of pain.
Chris Holifield:
Now this was back in 2019, you said, right?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Correct.
Chris Holifield:
Well, you got your medical card here in Utah, you said pretty much right when it started-
Tim Pickett:
2019.
Vanessa Nielsen:
As soon I could-
Tim Pickett:
Did you have a provider that wrote you a letter?
Vanessa Nielsen:
I did not. I couldn’t find one. I had talked to a couple of my doctors and my one doctor, is still my doctor, I love him to death.
Chris Holifield:
He hasn’t dropped you? He hasn’t said get out of here, you pot smoker?
Vanessa Nielsen:
No. But he said, I’m sorry, it’s a gray area in Utah. I’m not sure I want to put my name on the line with this at this point because I don’t know… He says I don’t agree with opioid use and stuff like that. I’m very careful of what I prescribe to my patients. He said, but cannabis, that’s opening a whole another… Now, this doctor, mind you, back in the day, I’m sure back in college, I’m sure he had experiences. So, it’s not that he was close-minded but he was afraid, afraid to say-
Chris Holifield:
He had his license on the line. I get it, yeah.
Vanessa Nielsen:
… I’ll give you a letter.
Tim Pickett:
Right, it’s extremely common even now. I don’t know if I’m covered malpractice-wise. I don’t want the legal liability. I don’t know anything about it. So how can I prescribe or recommend something that I really don’t know how you can use?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Yes.
Tim Pickett:
And then there’s the answer there’s no evidence to support it. Well, I don’t know. That’s not true.
Vanessa Nielsen:
And my doctor didn’t take the stand of there’s no evidence to prove that cannabis is helpful. I think it was more of his fear in the community of being a doctor and giving someone a letter saying, yes, I recommend that this person use cannabis. Since that time, he’s totally cool with it. He knows, he monitors. And he’s like, “How’s your pain?” Every doctor that I have on my panel, which is about six of them from the oncologists to the radiologist, all of them, at the top of my file, every single one of them says, “Do not offer gabapentin.” I have refused it for 18 months. I’m not going to start it now. Even though I had severe neuropathy and I’ve got severe nerve entrapment pain that comes and goes, I never know where it’s going to be, but…
Tim Pickett:
So when you’re using cannabis after surgery, you’re using it through chemo, you’re really just only smoking?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Yes. And the reason why I smoked is because I couldn’t get out of a chair. I could barely get myself to the bathroom, make myself something to eat. So, I basically would roll a 20-pack of joints and I would smoke them all day long until I could just fade back and deal with… I call it mind trickery, a lot of people will call it meditation or praying or however you spiritually connect. But that was my mainstay, cannabis, and I did a lot of praying to the universe. That’s kind of my gig. I’m a spiritual gangster. But the cannabis, I don’t think I would have made it without it.
Chris Holifield:
Did you do any edibles? Nothing, no tinctures, anything like that?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Actually, once I started feeling better, I started chemo. That’s a whole another situation.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Okay. And before we get to the chemo, there’s the pain and then there’s the suffering and the THC and the cannabis isn’t really controlling the pain. It’s putting the pain over there.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Yes, it doesn’t control it, but neither do opioids. Opioids, my doctor said, work on something in your brain, doesn’t work on the pain. It’s like you guys have got me wiped, absolutely wiped throwing up. I can’t think. I can’t keep conversations going on these drugs that you’ve given me that why am I in so much pain? I mean, the pain was nothing I’ve ever experienced nor would I ever want to experience again.
Tim Pickett:
Because I think that’s where people get misinformed that it’s going to take away your pain, and so they don’t have a good experience with cannabis or how is it working for you exactly? Maybe that’s a bad question because it’s different. It’s different than the Percocet.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Absolutely different. I could smoke a joint and be absolutely fine, carry on a conversation, keep my mind together and be in less pain. I take opioids and I cannot function, period. I have conversations that people come back and say, “Do you remember that conversation we had?” And I was like, “No.” And I never want to have one like that again. I don’t like that out of body feeling. I like to be in control and some people call it stoned or, “Oh, you’re going to get stoned and do all these terrible things.” That’s never been the case for me. I’ve always been high functioning. I’ve always kept a job. I’ve always worked my butt off. I own a home. I mean, I’ve always been super responsible. So tell me that I’m a stoner, that I had a lot of family and stuff come up and friends that would say that. The day that I don’t-
Tim Pickett:
Wow, you’re smoking a lot of weed here.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Yes.
Tim Pickett:
They’re worried about you because you’re smoking a lot of weed?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Or that, “Oh, you shouldn’t be smoking daily,” or whatever their reasoning was.
Tim Pickett:
I have stage three breast cancer-
Chris Holifield:
You’re a drug addict. Yeah.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Right. And a lot of my friends were blown away that I was actually able to function through just using cannabis.
Tim Pickett:
Got it. Okay. Now, see, this is key to people understanding, like the use.
Vanessa Nielsen:
It doesn’t take away your pain completely but it will make it manageable and it dulls the pain. As long as you’re getting the right dosage and you know what’s working for you, it keeps the pain under control to where I wasn’t in agony and tearful chaos all day.
Tim Pickett:
Right. It’s putting the pain aside. It’s disassociating you from the pain enough that you can concentrate on a conversation.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Yes.
Tim Pickett:
That you can take a little nap.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Yes.
Tim Pickett:
That you can eat something.
Vanessa Nielsen:
And that was huge for me. I wasn’t eating. I had no appetite. I don’t know if it was more from the surgery, but it was rough. I had no appetite and then, of course, you get sick when you don’t eat. So I mean, I was drinking Ensure and protein shakes and different things, just trying to replenish some of that. But when I would smoke, I was able to eat a little something.
Chris Holifield:
Give you the munchies.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Yes. And I really counted on that because at first I had lost quite a bit of weight after my surgery, and I was concerned that I would rather have a little meat on my bones to fight this cancer than some of the people I would see in the chemo rooms and I’d be like, man, you don’t have a fighting chance in hell. You’re already thin. There’s not much to take away from you.
Chris Holifield:
Sure. And then you go into chemo. And what was that like?
Vanessa Nielsen:
It was scary. It was very scary. So, my mom towards the end of her treatment, she was in the hospital three days before she died. They gave her one dose of Red Devil, Adriamycin, and she died three days later. So I mean, it just really took over her body and just didn’t work. She’s already on her way out but that just compounded everything. So, going into the chemo knowing that I had to do the Red Devil, and it was six weeks, I was scared to death. I had to cut off 13 inches of my long blonde hair. That was traumatizing.
Vanessa Nielsen:
And then I bust my hair, because they said within two weeks, it’s right on the 14th day, all your hair is going to fall out. And I was like, “Mm-hmm.” No, it was 14 days and it was gone. So, not only going through the physical changes, the mental anguish from those physical changes, but then you’re sick on top of that, and pain. So, for anyone out there that’s going through those types of situations, the only thing I could do is use cannabis to keep my mind where it wasn’t overwhelmed to the point where I couldn’t heal myself, or at least function enough to think I might have a fighting chance.
Vanessa Nielsen:
And I smoked a lot. I mean, I had someone that would roll me packs of joints like a cigarette pack. They’d fill it up for me and just leave it every couple of days. And if I still had some, great, they can roll more, just so I always had it on hand. So that was huge to me. And then when the law is passed in Utah and it could only be vaped, I had to move over and transition once I got my card. That’s been a hard transition.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I mean, I can imagine, because you grew up smoking.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Yes. So my tolerance is extremely high.
Chris Holifield:
Do you ever take breaks?
Vanessa Nielsen:
I do. And people say it’s the gateway drug gets addictive. I’ve never had a problem taking a break from it whatsoever.
Chris Holifield:
Really?
Vanessa Nielsen:
It might be a little edgy, because I don’t have that calming sense to me but it’s not like, oh gosh, if I don’t smoke, I’m going to hurt people or I’m going to rob, steal, and beat people up.
Chris Holifield:
Or you just can’t sleep very well, that’s the thing I run into.
Vanessa Nielsen:
And I have insomnia.
Tim Pickett:
And a little irritable-
Vanessa Nielsen:
I have insomnia all the time anyways, even with the smoking or use now. I don’t know exactly where that comes from.
Chris Holifield:
So it doesn’t even knock you out at night, huh?
Vanessa Nielsen:
No.
Chris Holifield:
Really? You’re like Krissie.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, just-
Vanessa Nielsen:
No, but-
Chris Holifield:
Krissie on…
Vanessa Nielsen:
There is one thing, though. I bought a magical butter machine, the MagicalButter Machine.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. How’s that working for you?
Vanessa Nielsen:
I absolutely love that thing.
Chris Holifield:
Okay, let’s hear a review. Let’s hear about that.
Vanessa Nielsen:
I made tinctures, I’ve made butters, I’ve made oils. And when I was going through the different things, I use the actual tincture oils that I made for salve. I used it on my wounds. After they had healed enough to where I was in the safe zone, I started using it as a salve, too. And I think personally that those oils absorbed through my skin and helped with some of that pain, especially the nerve pain that was going on.
Chris Holifield:
I’m sure they did. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
I’m sure they did.
Vanessa Nielsen:
So, I did find with that MagicalButter Machine once I learned how to make it, decarboxylate, everything.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Go through the process and never to really quite dose like know how much was going in there, whatever. But I would make baked goods and they worked like a charm. I could eat a half a cookie and be totally good to go, like I had smoked a full joint and off I go. So, there were different times that I had to use baked goods as well. Rather than just smoking, I would eat a little bit like a banana bread at night just to help give me that little extra so that I can hopefully sleep for at least a couple of hours. My sleeping has gotten back on track. I sleep about five hours a night now.
Chris Holifield:
Oh, you’re still using that machine? Is it still working for you?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Absolutely.
Chris Holifield:
Just because I know that we had to leave O2 but it broke two times on us.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, the magic butter machine seems like it’s a little bit more robust.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Yeah, I’ve never had any problems with it. It works great. I’ve used it several times.
Tim Pickett:
Plenty?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Yeah, I’ve used plenty to know that it’s good product. Chris Whitener is the guy who founded the company and the product. When I was down in Florida, a summer before, I was like, “Oh, you’re the magic butter guy.”
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Vanessa Nielsen:
And he’s like, “Wow, from Utah.” And I was like, “Yes.”
Chris Holifield:
Who would have figured, right?
Vanessa Nielsen:
And all the things with cannabis, I mean, being a hippie, whatever, over all these years, I can’t say that it’s never just been for recreational, because I enjoyed it. But when I came down with the breast cancer and found that the medicinal could really help me, I think it helped me all along. I just didn’t realize that it was helping me to that magnitude.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Did you go back and look over your cannabis use over the years and realize, “Wow, I’ve been using this as medicine the whole time?”
Vanessa Nielsen:
Absolutely. I’ve been diagnosed with PTSD three different times over 25 years. The first one was when my husband was killed by a drunk driver. I had a lot of really weird situations. Anyways, neither here nor there, I think that I self-medicated all those years because I couldn’t take antidepressants and I didn’t want to be wiped on Valium or Xanax. I had a full-time job, I had a kid to raise, didn’t have time to mess around. I’ve always paid my own bills, always been super responsible. So, it’s hard to admit back then that I was that heavy of a pot user, because people would judge me and be like, “Oh.” I’m like, “But if you didn’t know me and you met me, you’d never guess now, would you?”
Chris Holifield:
But it probably would have been okay if you would have been that heavy of a drinker.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, yeah, right? You could have drank that much.
Chris Holifield:
That’s— “She just goes through a bottle a week, it’s not that big a deal because it’s okay because it’s legal.”
Vanessa Nielsen:
And that’s frightening to me.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Nothing good ever came from a bottle for me. I have the same intolerance to alcohol as I do to opioids. Every time I’ve drank, got myself into really bad situations and things have happened where you just go, “Wow, was I really there?” And I don’t like that out of control feeling, never have. I can smoke weed and I can go skydiving, I can go hiking, I can go swimming, I can go kayaking, I can do whatever I want, and the memory is there. I’m not going to go, “Wow, what happened? Did I make an ass of myself?”
Chris Holifield:
Blackout.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Right. So for me, I believe that I’ve been self-medicating all these years for different reasons avoiding antidepressants and the different things that are so heavily prescribed in Utah. You go to your doctor and say, “I’m feeling kind of blue,” and they’re like, “Oh, here have some Prozac.” Well, wait a minute. Is this a situation that’s at hand or is this long term? Is it bipolar? They’re just too quick to write out a prescription for an antidepressant.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. Do you have a favorite strain?
Vanessa Nielsen:
I do. Sour Diesel is a good one for me.
Tim Pickett:
Just a straight sativa.
Vanessa Nielsen:
I absolutely love sativas. I’m not a big indica fan. But we know, everybody knows now, everything is pretty hybrid. But my preference has always been sativa. And it’s because I am loud and obnoxious and I’ve always got a lot of energy and I’m outgoing, talk to everybody. But it’s just always been my go-to for preference, the sativas, for sure.
Tim Pickett:
When it switched and you could get it here in Utah, I mean, do you feel that the system has worked for you?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Absolutely not, unfortunately.
Tim Pickett:
So I mean, 2019, you have cancer. You go through the surgery, you’re using cannabis for the pain, you go through chemo, you’re using cannabis really as medicine at that point, using a lot of it, smoking it, started to make some edibles with the magic butter machine, and you’re having to get it from wherever, right?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Yes, unfortunately.
Tim Pickett:
You have to have a lot of people helping, right?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Yes.
Tim Pickett:
At that level of consumption, I mean, it’s probably gonna take… it takes a pretty serious commitment to keep you in your medicine.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Yes, it does. And that’s hard because my first trip to the pharmacy, which I did a little review on my Instagram, you know what, they were great over there. It was grand opening. The place is nice. It’s beautifully decorated. But bottom line is, is when I left there and got home and opened my package of product that I had spent close to $300 on, I was furious. I went back down to the pharmacy and said, “I know you can’t do refunds, but let me tell you a little something. I’ve been doing this for a long time and you sold me popcorn bud that absolutely disintegrates. It’s just turns into dust. Smokes real fast, isn’t very flavorful, but bottom line, it doesn’t do me much good for what I need.”
Vanessa Nielsen:
Now my tolerance is not their problem. So say someone’s coming in new, maybe that product would be okay for them. But as somebody who has been familiar with it for years, I’ve been around grows. I’ve been in almost every aspect of cannabis that there could be and to see what was coming out on the market, I was appalled. I was like, Utah, get it together.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, you’re not alone. And I think that this isn’t coming from you being a connoisseur of cannabis or somebody who just is been into it their whole life. This is just because you have been somewhat of a user, in my opinion. We’re not talking about you going to Colorado and becoming a grower and then coming here and complaining. We’re just talking about you being a patient.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Correct.
Tim Pickett:
You being a normal medical patient who just requires us better than average, bigger than average supplies of a better than average product.
Vanessa Nielsen:
I think that the supply that they’re allowing in Utah, that’s great, if someone can afford it. The cost of what I paid for in that store lasted me a week and a half, and I was like, “I can’t do that, $300 a week, you’re going to break the bank.” I’m not working. I have medical bills. I mean, these cancer treatments were costing me $10,000 for the after-shot. So I mean, in my mind, I’m thinking, okay, I’ve got to be frugal here.
Vanessa Nielsen:
So, it was tough for me, because I’m like, how do you stretch it that far? I also got two vape carts. The carts were cloudy. I did a review on that and the manufacturer actually reached out to me and tried to make it right. And they said, “We don’t even know how to take care of this because you can’t return the product. We can’t give you product to replace it. So we’re really sorry that this happened.” But basically you’re shit out of luck. And I was like, “You know what, $65 a cart, not happening.”
Vanessa Nielsen:
So I had to steer away from that. And what do you do when your medicine is costing you that much, when opioids are on the market for 2 and $3? You can go fill a 60-pill bottle. It’s just like that’s been really tough for me to swallow here because cannabis should be regulated, absolutely. I believe it should stay in the medicinal for patients. If it goes recreational, that kind of shifts gears, but it needs to be affordable.
Tim Pickett:
How has that evolved for you over the course of now we’re a little over a year in? Is it better, the same, do you still-
Chris Holifield:
With the price, is it still the same?
Vanessa Nielsen:
The prices were still the same.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, we’re recording this on the last day you can legally have out-a-state product. I mean, so-
Chris Holifield:
So, smoke it all tonight.
Tim Pickett:
This releases on-
Chris Holifield:
July 2nd, this would be released.
Tim Pickett:
And as of the release, we will not be able to have out-of-state product in Utah or purchase out-of-state product here.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
How do you feel about that?
Vanessa Nielsen:
I’m leaving.
Chris Holifield:
She’s on the road, man. She’s out of here.
Vanessa Nielsen:
I’m on the road for a year and I do plan on spending a lot of time in the cannabis-friendly states. It’s hard in Utah. I would love to say that I’d love to stay here and grow and get really into that, because I think it could be a niche for me. But by the same token, I’m stifled by the regulations, you’re not able to use flame. I’m sorry, but all these vape products that I’ve spent money on a G Pen Pro, it didn’t work. I took it back, the guy said, “Oh, I’ll give you another one.” It didn’t work.
Vanessa Nielsen:
So then I moved over and bought a different one. It worked for two weeks and then blew up. I went camping, I was so mad. I went camping, I had my flower, I had my vape, and guess what happened? It didn’t work. I spent two days up in the mountains and ended up using a Coke can and poking holes in it and smoking it like a teenager.
Chris Holifield:
And you know what? Those work so good.
Vanessa Nielsen:
And you know what, I had to. It was that or go home, because I couldn’t get the medication and I was starting to get the pains, the kind that bring tears to your eyes, and they’re debilitating at different times for me. So, to get up there and be in fear that the park ranger is going to come and if I’m smoking a joint, I’m in trouble. You know what I mean?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, we’ve run into this with patients who’ve got tickets for joints now.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Right. And that’s tough because I tried to consume at home only. But if I’m on the road and I’m legally allowed to vape it, then I should be able to legally go off where the smokers are or wherever and do what I need to do to medicate and then move on with my day. I do understand being a parent, I wouldn’t want to walk through a situation out in public with my kids and have them smell it and see people over there smoking and thinking, “Oh, they’re druggies,” or just exposing them to that side of it. They’ll be exposed eventually. Usually by sixth grade, they’ve been exposed. Most of them have tried it or they have friends that are doing it at that age. So, that’s a tough one for me.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, people who don’t think your sixth grader or their sixth grader has been exposed to it are not… There’s good surveys. There’s actually good data to support that.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Right. And I believe being open. I’ve always been open with my kids. They know. My daughter has always known. So, I think it’s best to be open with your children but educate them that it’s not just to go get high or you go out and get high with your friends. There are legitimate reasons for cannabis. And I think that goes way back to the beginning of time. People have used it for eons for that purpose.
Vanessa Nielsen:
So I think education is huge, especially for the generation coming up. You don’t want them to think that it’s a gateway drug to heroin. That always blew my mind that they would even put those two together. It’s a gateway drug, you’re going to end up… No, man. I’ve smoked cannabis for years. I don’t do meth. I’m not a crackhead. I don’t take opioids. I mean, I’m not a drinker.
Tim Pickett:
It didn’t make you one day wake up and say, “Gosh, I want to do some heroin,” right?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Or if I couldn’t get marijuana, what is it I’m going to do? Well, go out and get a fit? No. So I think that the education needs to be there. And I’ve seen it worked miracles with children, children that are autistic that have different things going on, a seizure disorder. There was a little girl that I followed her story and it blew my mind. And these people ended up moving out of state because they’re like, we can’t get it here. I mean, they moved out of Utah. But what it did for this little girl was absolutely amazing, phenomenal. And as a parent of a child that’s that sick, even if you’ve never experienced cannabis or your LDS or your religion or your social circles don’t agree, there is a basis to the medical use of it. So, I think education is huge.
Chris Holifield:
What would you tell somebody who’s listening that might be on the fence? They might be a little apprehensive about trying cannabis, they’ve never vaped it, never smoked, did nothing but they have a similar story as you do. What would you tell them?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Honestly, I would try to inform them, give them information. Let them make their own decision. Would you rather be wiped out on OxyContin or be able to ingest a little bit of cannabis and get the same effect if not better for pain?
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Vanessa Nielsen:
And the stigma that comes with it, that’s huge. I think that’s the worst part of it for people. I have a friend whose mother who recently passed away, she came to me and she said, “Vanessa, I know that you have the magic butter machine. Help me.” I don’t want my mom high. She needs to be able to eat. She had COPD, really bad. So what happened is I ended up making her butter. I donated this butter to this 85-year-old woman. Guess what? She was up and moving.
Vanessa Nielsen:
She’d get out of her chair. She’d go outside and go for a little walks and stuff. And she said that she couldn’t go without the edibles at that point. And I was like, this poor woman, she’s been religious her whole life. She’s got COPD, she never smoked, and now she is using cannabis and she likes it. And it works for her and it’s keeping her alive and happy. So information, I think, is the biggest part to get out to people. Try it. If it doesn’t work for you, that’s great. But I would much rather see somebody tried cannabis than opioids or end up with a huge addiction. And that’s scary to me.
Chris Holifield:
Absolutely.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Too many people have ended up on the wrong side for me using opioids.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, that’s what I think we still need to work on is that idea that it’s a choice. It’s just another choice. You can try this, you can try benzos, you can try cannabis, you can try opioids, right?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
Just lay it all out there. Here’s the risks, here’s the benefit, but it’s just another tool. And it’s okay to try it.
Vanessa Nielsen:
I really wish that physicians could take a better stance and be more educated as well. Because when they’re giving these patients these opioids and starting these addictions that, yes, I’ll get you over this hump, but what happens in a year from now when these people are so strung out that they’re committing crimes to get their drugs? You know what I mean? So, if a doctor could say, “Hey, I do prescribe opioids, but have you ever thought about using cannabis,” it might help you in ways, but that just isn’t a topic of discussion for most physicians.
Chris Holifield:
Hopefully that changes soon, especially when the whole descheduling and…
Tim Pickett:
Right. I mean, there’s so much information now about this descheduling movement and moving the federal legislation along so that we can talk about it more openly. It seems to us, though, I think, and probably you too, that everybody around us is talking about weed, talking about cannabis.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Correct.
Tim Pickett:
But we live in this world, right?
Chris Holifield:
We live in the weed bubble.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Actually, I don’t know if we have magnetism to other people, but this is the funny thing. In the last 15 years, you meet people every day, the majority of people that I met smoked. And I’m like, wow, they wouldn’t guess I smoked. So it’s out there, it’s just that stupid stigma that comes along with it being, what, a class one?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, it’s a schedule 1.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Schedule 1 drug like heroin. I’m like, “What?”
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Vanessa Nielsen:
So I mean, the stigma that comes with it not only for patients, physicians, just people in general. I’m hoping that this is opening it wide open so that people can make that choice, and maybe have better success and not end up, excuse me, on the streets. We had a really good family friend who suffered something, some surgery went through that, ended up hooked on opioids, and he ended up getting shot by the police in an attempt to satisfy his cravings for his habit.
Vanessa Nielsen:
And how sad is that, he left behind five kids and his wife. And he was still in pain. So, what good came from that? Absolutely none. It devastated and destroyed a family over a very short period of time, maybe two or three years of his becoming addicted to these opioids and not being able to get… He got cut off from the pain clinic. What do you do at that point?
Chris Holifield:
Try cannabis.
Tim Pickett:
Still a lot of work to do.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Right, absolutely. I think cannabis, though, I’m so happy that it’s more of a conversation piece these days and that people are seeing the benefits of it, not just the old hippies or stoners or whatever. It has its place.
Tim Pickett:
Sure. So you’re going on this journey.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Yes.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, it’s really not a trip. This is a journey.
Vanessa Nielsen:
This is an absolute healing journey. The name of my motorhome happens to be Journey.
Tim Pickett:
Journey.
Chris Holifield:
There you go.
Tim Pickett:
And you do this art that is a lot of it is cannabis themed?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Yes.
Tim Pickett:
There are these big, circular mandala type.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Correct. Well, this is how it all began. I sat in a reclining chair for four months trying to recover. I couldn’t do anything. I couldn’t wash my hair. I couldn’t do dishes, feed myself. And as I was sitting there, my boyfriend kept saying, “Why don’t you pick up your jewelry wiring again? Do something so you’re not just sitting here.” I wasn’t able to wire jewelry anymore. The neuropathy was so bad from chemo that my fingers don’t work. So then I was like, wow, I had a lazy Susan piece of wood, a 15-inch piece of wood sitting on the end of my counter. One day I looked at it and said, “Huh, I’m going to paint that.” And I did.
Vanessa Nielsen:
And the funny thing is I did a bunch of [inaudible 00:47:17] now and just being my weird hippie self. And everybody that saw it was like, “Wow. Hey, I want one of those.” And so, it turned into this thing where it was an outlet for me to stay creative but to help shift the troubles that were coming with the cancer. Loss of my job and loss of relationships and loss of body parts and my hair and all these different things, so I pretty much put my energy to that art and I was giving it away.
Vanessa Nielsen:
I don’t do just weed art but that’s my favorite one. And I don’t know if it was my frame of mind at the time. And they just legalized and I just got my med card in Utah and I thought why not? So that’s how that started. And it just carried over from there. I think that’s what I’m going to do. I would love to hit 4:20. I don’t know if I want to do Colorado or Washington, wherever I end up, but I believe that I can sell my art but it comes with a message for me. Because look what I’ve done through the worst of the worst and the damage that the chemo did to me, I can still be creative. So that’s been huge for me. It’s been a great outlet.
Tim Pickett:
That’s awesome.
Chris Holifield:
Such an inspirational story. I mean, at least for me, hopefully others find-
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, me too. I mean, you have gone all the way through the story of the things that have happened to you, the things that have happened with you, and through you are just unbelievable. It’s really inspiring.
Vanessa Nielsen:
It’s been a journey, for sure. But now I’m going on the healing journey. So, I planned to continue to use cannabis. I’ll probably be the granny on the porch or have the grandkids come over and go, “Grandma smokes weed.” And you know what?
Tim Pickett:
Here’s my grandma.
Vanessa Nielsen:
That’s okay because it doesn’t change me as a person. I’ve always been the same person. And so, when I went through the cancer, it was quite the eye-opener. A lot of people turned on me like they didn’t want to talk to me or deal with me. And some of that has to do with cancer but a lot of it had to do with my cannabis use because everybody’s like, “Oh. She’s smoking all day long.” And I was like, “Yeah, but that doesn’t change me as a person. You liked me before and guess what? I was stoned then, too. So, really?”
Vanessa Nielsen:
So, I am a cannabis definite connoisseur and I use it now more medicinal. And I’m glad that Utah and all these people like you guys doing your podcast, I’ve learned so much and there’s so much more information on terpenes and all the things that have always interested me but they were so deep into the scientific side of it. Everybody’s like, yeah, it’s just weed. And then the heavier strains would come up and different things. It’s fascinating to me. And especially because it comes from the earth, and I believe that God intended it to be used as a medicine, period.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, it’s definitely here for a reason, for sure. And it does sound like you have become much more intentional about your use over this whole process than you were before.
Vanessa Nielsen:
I think you were much more intentional, and I’ve had an epiphany that all those years that I was treating different things from depression to PTSD, fibromyalgia, the different things that I had going on, just from day to day stressful life, and I didn’t realize that I was medicating myself until now all of this stuff has come up and people are really delving into what makes it work, how does it work through your body and the different systems.
Chris Holifield:
Now back to this journey, are you going to be documented any of it on Instagram?
Vanessa Nielsen:
I am going to vlog everything.
Chris Holifield:
Awesome.
Vanessa Nielsen:
I’m not really down with taking selfies and stuff.
Chris Holifield:
Sure.
Vanessa Nielsen:
That’s not my thing. So I’ve got to get into this video.
Chris Holifield:
Because I was going to say our listeners should connect with you somehow, like what’s the best way to connect and-
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, we’ll definitely follow along.
Vanessa Nielsen:
That would be awesome. I have @BluntnessinUtah on Instagram and I also have my @UniquenessCreations, which is my art page. And then from there, I think I’ll probably start doing TikToks, YouTubes, because not only am I going on a healing journey and I’m going to smoke a lot, but I’m going to make it fun. And I’m going to go do the things that could have been snuffed out for me a year ago.
Chris Holifield:
So awesome.
Vanessa Nielsen:
So before I get too old or I can’t, I never want to be in a position where my body doesn’t work like that again because it was frightening. I thought there was many times when I laid there in the middle of the night and thought, wow, I’m on my way out. I’m going to die from this shit. But I made it through. And I smoked a lot of weed to get there.
Tim Pickett:
Well, you deserve all the happiness and success in your trip, your journey, your art, everything.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Well, I would appreciate if people follow along and learn something, learn with me. If you’ve got things to share, that’s great. I love it. I always say that I’m happy to support different cannabis businesses, the CBD, I mean, all different cannabis businesses, I will support them along the road, also support their products and sales. So, I’m looking forward to it. And I have a feeling that when I get back from this journey, I’m going to be completely cancer free. And I think I’ll be able to decide what my next career move is going to be. And it’s not back into the finance business.
Chris Holifield:
Well, if you make it back to Utah, or even if you don’t make it back to Utah, we can even do a phone interview.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Absolutely.
Chris Holifield:
I think it’s going to fine in like a year or something to catch up with you.
Vanessa Nielsen:
It would be great. And I actually plan on going and seeing every place that has cannabis.
Chris Holifield:
Okay.
Vanessa Nielsen:
From pharmacies to dispensaries to whatever, festivals, I’ll be there.
Chris Holifield:
You should start your own little podcast on the road or something.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Yeah, maybe I should.
Chris Holifield:
And you can interview and talk to people along the way.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Right? And my boyfriend’s just not down, but I said what if my trailer, this 28-foot behemoth of a trailer, it’s really sweet dragster ride, what if I have everybody put cannabis stickers on it along the way? And he’s like, “No.”
Chris Holifield:
Probably get pulled over pretty quickly, huh?
Vanessa Nielsen:
Not only get pulled over but-
Tim Pickett:
Don’t go to Idaho.
Vanessa Nielsen:
… it wrecks the trailer. And he’s like, “No.” And he said, “You can do whatever you want on the inside.” And I’ve already started. All of the places I’ve been, in Ogden or throughout the valley, OG cannabis products. I’ve got stickers. I’ve got all kinds of stuff. And of course, I’m going to promote them because I’ve been in there. I’ve got to know people. They’ve provided me with information along the way. It’s been great.
Tim Pickett:
That’s awesome.
Chris Holifield:
Any final questions you want to ask for Tim before we wrap this episode up? Anything you want to talk about before we wrap this episode up?
Vanessa Nielsen:
No, just no judgments, guys.
Chris Holifield:
No, no judgments.
Tim Pickett:
We’re out-
Chris Holifield:
This is a judgment-free zone. I mean, that’s the thing with this podcast. I’m going to say it now-
Vanessa Nielsen:
No, you guys are cool and talking about like my family and stuff.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, because here it comes, right?
Vanessa Nielsen:
You know what? Love you anyways, but whatever.
Tim Pickett:
It is. You know what’s great, though, this is good for you.
Chris Holifield:
You got one life. Live it the best way you know how. I mean, that’s really all you can do is what you know, you know.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Absolutely. It’s YOLO.
Chris Holifield:
Exactly.
Tim Pickett:
YOLO.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Yeah.
Chris Holifield:
I haven’t heard that for a while.
Tim Pickett:
That’s right.
Chris Holifield:
How can people find out more about the podcast, Tim? I’m going to let you as we wrap this episode up.
Tim Pickett:
This podcast and all of our other podcasts are on utahmarijuana.org/podcast. You can join the community. Reach out to Chris or I on that website or you can reach Chris on his other podcast, chris@iamsaltlake.com. Be sure to check that out. We’re with you every Friday at 4:20 in the morning.
Chris Holifield:
Subscribe and listen and share. And if you have ideas, send them our way.
Tim Pickett:
Absolutely. Stay safe out there, guys.
Vanessa Nielsen:
I’m always there at 4:20 AM, so good for you.
Chris Holifield:
Awesome.
Vanessa Nielsen:
Nice. Thanks, guys.
Chris Holifield:
You bet.
Curaleaf’s Greg Gardner is a licensed pharmacist who now works in the cannabis space. He brings a unique perspective, having gone to pharmacy school and worked in chain pharmacies for many years before branching out into cannabis. Unlike many of the guests on Utah in the Weeds, Gardner was not first introduced to cannabis as a user.
Gardner’s employer is one of only a few multi-national cannabis companies in the world.[02:33] He works at the Curaleaf pharmacy in Lehi, consulting with patients and answering their questions about the best way to use cannabis for their particular conditions. Being able to spend time with patients is one of the things Gardner most appreciates about working in the industry.
A good portion of this conversation focused on how medications are dispensed in a pharmacy setting. The trio touched on everything from Utah’s Electronic Verification System EVS [22:50] to how medical providers may, or may not, take the opportunity to suggest delivery method and dosage [20:30]. It was clear from some of Gardner’s comments that there are medical providers in Utah who are not exactly sure what to recommend, so they leave that to the pharmacists.
Gardner also mentioned how he and his fellow pharmacists spend time educating QMPs. [23:20] Much of what they discuss with QMPs is a direct result of a limited EVS. However, things are improving, and QMPs are getting better at making appropriate recommendations.
During the last portion of the conversation, the guys briefly touched on a number of topics including expanding the qualifying condition list [27:50], the types of products being sold most often in Utah [33:30], and visiting cash-only pharmacies like Curaleaf [38:12].
This is a great conversation that talks about dispensing Medical Cannabis from the pharmacist’s point of view. It is definitely worth listening to if you are thinking of going to pharmacy school.
Chris Holifield:
This is episode 64 of Utah in the Weeds. Welcome everybody. My name’s Chris Holifield.
Tim Pickett:
And I’m Tim Pickett, a medical cannabis expert, apparently recognized, like we talked about last week as City Weekly’s best of state.
Chris Holifield:
And you are, I don’t care what you say Tim.
Tim Pickett:
We’re doing good things for a lot of people. So that’s great. I’m excited about this conversation though. Somebody we’ve been trying to get ahold of and nailed down, Greg Gardner from Curaleaf.
Chris Holifield:
Finally, somebody from Curaleaf representing on Utah in the Weeds because this is a pharmacy we haven’t really talked a whole lot about on this show.
Tim Pickett:
No. And we haven’t yet talked to anybody from a national company, a big company. There’s a little more red tape to get somebody like that on the show, making sure that Curaleaf’s okay with it. But they have a good system down there and they’ve been around since August of last year. They’ve been open and this was a good conversation. Greg’s a very interesting guy. He has an interesting story of how he got into cannabis and you’re going to have to listen till the end to find out the answer.
Chris Holifield:
Because who would have guessed, hey, I’m going to go to school to be a pharmacist. And then now he’s a pharmacist at a cannabis pharmacy in Lehi of all places, right?
Tim Pickett:
That’s right.
Chris Holifield:
But what else is going on here with utahmarijuana.org. Tim, what do you got going on?
Tim Pickett:
We’re going to start doing webinars every other week and next week, I’m going to do a webinar next Wednesday night on how to get a medical card in Utah. I think we talk a lot, Chris, you and I, to people who are already in the industry or patients who already know how to do this, and we still run into patients every day that just don’t know that they qualify, don’t know it’s legal. And so we’re going to go all the way back to the beginning and start again.
Chris Holifield:
You have to do it, man. You have to do it every so often. So how can they find that at Utah marijuana?
Tim Pickett:
utahmarijuana.org and if you follow us on social, Instagram.
Chris Holifield:
Oh, that will be right there.
Tim Pickett:
It’ll all be right there.
Chris Holifield:
And I want to say this again. I’m going to say this on every episode, we are always looking for guests on the podcast. If you are a patient, whatever, if you’re involved in the industry, we would love to bring you on the podcast, have you share your story, reach out to Tim or myself and we’d love to set something up.
Tim Pickett:
Absolutely.
Chris Holifield:
Anyway, let’s get into this conversation with Greg though. This was a good one. I learned a lot in this episode and hopefully you will too.
Tim Pickett:
Enjoy.
Chris Holifield:
So let’s get into it. Let’s talk about… I mean, where does your relationship with cannabis start? Where would you like it to start, I guess, for the conversation?
Tim Pickett:
Take us back.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah, you got it. So graduating high school. I kind of had a passion to do something medical health related. My mom was a nurse and then she taught an English and a medical English course in high school. So I had a passion there. I had a neighbor who was a pharmacist who introduced me to pharmacy. So I was like, “This is a pretty cool career.” So I got my pharmacy technician license when I graduated high school. I worked at Target for a number of years and I said, “This is something I think I’d like to pursue.” So I decided to apply to pharmacy school programs. I did want to go out of state. As much as I love Utah, I was kind of ready for a change.
Tim Pickett:
You grew up here?
Greg Gardner:
I did. Yep. Grew up LDS, did the mission work. So I went out of the country for a couple of years, came back and I said, “Hey, I really enjoyed my time out of Utah, but again, I don’t know that I want to settle down in Utah coming back.” Met my wife, we got married just before pharmacy school started, but I was like, “You know what? I want to look for somewhere different.” So I looked at the University of Colorado, which is out in Denver and I got excited to go there because one, they have mountains. I’m a big snowboarder. I like to do outdoor things. And so it seemed like home, but being in a different environment. So up to this point, I have no cannabis experience. No relation-
Chris Holifield:
Never used cannabis.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. Never.
Chris Holifield:
Nothing.
Tim Pickett:
Not in your life.
Greg Gardner:
Nope. Zero.
Chris Holifield:
He’s mum’s listening.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Chris Holifield:
I’m kidding.
Greg Gardner:
But I had friends that did. I had friends that were regular users and I probably had some prejudgments towards them because that’s how I was raised too. I’m a big believer on you just do the best with the information that you have. So I didn’t know anything about cannabis other than it was not allowed. But, yeah. I applied to pharmacy school, got in at Denver. And so when you move there, you go to Colorado for the first time and I’m just driving down the main highway, you can smell it.
Chris Holifield:
Oh, sure.
Greg Gardner:
And you’re like, “Okay, I’m going to-
Chris Holifield:
What was the date approximately?
Greg Gardner:
2015.
Chris Holifield:
So right after legalization. I mean, 2014, right? Was when they legalized it.
Tim Pickett:
When Colorado legalized.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, yeah. So now it’s-
Chris Holifield:
Wow. Okay.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. So we-
Tim Pickett:
It’s a new world.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. So we’re going out to Denver and again, just blown away because I’m like, hey, this is what I thought would be similar to Utah as far as outdoor activities. But the diversity that’s out in Denver was amazing. The amount of people, differences of opinions. So these were all awesome things. They made it very clear when we were applying to pharmacy school out there. They said, “Hey, if you’re coming out here to use weed, that’s a no-go.”
Tim Pickett:
Did they test you before you went to pharmacy school?
Greg Gardner:
I don’t think they did any-
Tim Pickett:
Drug testing?
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. We actually did drug testing at least once a year.
Tim Pickett:
In your school.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. In school.
Tim Pickett:
Interesting. Because I know for PA school, I had to take a drug test to get in.
Chris Holifield:
What? What a waste of money.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. So we did annual drug tests. So that was very upfront. Pharmacy school, that was off limits. No cannabis use while we were there.
Tim Pickett:
No big deal for you though, remember? Right?
Greg Gardner:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Because you grew up here. You’re not into it.
Greg Gardner:
Oh yeah.
Chris Holifield:
In the defense of the pharmacy though, maybe it was maybe to check more for pill popping. It wasn’t necessarily just to check for cannabis, right?
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. They-
Chris Holifield:
I mean, there’s other drugs. I mean, it’s testing for.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. I mean-
Chris Holifield:
I didn’t want a paint a bad picture.
Tim Pickett:
I guess so. But really, I mean, this is only a year after legalization in Colorado. I mean, we’re still… You got to figure they’re like, “Yeah. The rest of Colorado can do what they want. We’re in real medicine. We don’t want this.”
Greg Gardner:
Well, what’s interesting, what’s actually pretty cool. And this is… So I didn’t know if we were going to do anything cannabis-related in coursework that we did. Our assistant dean at the school, she actually hosted and did about a week long program where we discussed cannabis and how it works in the endocannabinoid system. We looked at the different studies. So that was my first introduction to cannabis as medicine rather than just people getting high or something. Again, I had no experience with, but I was really interested. So I took it upon myself as I was doing rotations and working.
Greg Gardner:
In Colorado, it’s recreational. No medical providers are part of it. But it was really cool to get to talk to patients and just say, “Hey, do you use cannabis? And if so, let’s talk about what your medication regimen that you’re also using, how those might interact with each other or how you can get different effects or…” Just things like that. So that was my first introduction to talking to people about cannabis. At one of the pharmacies I was at, they had just gotten a shipment of hemp product or CBD oils. And so I got to talk to patients about that. So I did a little bit of research on some of these products and-
Chris Holifield:
And this research was on your own, right?
Greg Gardner:
Yeah.
Chris Holifield:
This wasn’t part of your work. You’re like, “I’m just kind of curious what’s going on.”
Greg Gardner:
And the research was pretty mild. I mean, it was just, learning about CBD and a little bit about how it affects the body, and again, the company was trying to sell the CBD product. And so it was made more based on that specific product. But, yeah. So I did have an introduction to at least how cannabis works in the body and as a pharmaceutical. And what’s interesting is when our class graduated, our associate dean, she also left. She took a position out in San Diego. But she said something as she was leaving that left an impression on me. She talked about, because we focused so much on evidence-based medicine, what’s the best studies for, and making that our path. And she said, “While we focus so much on evidence-based medicine, don’t forget about medicinal-based evidence.” So talking about patient experiences in those matter. And so that was the first way or thing that I was told that was like, “Hey, it’s not all about, what’s the scientist studies saying?”
Tim Pickett:
The studies and the dosing of the pill and the side effects and the number needed to treat these things we learn in school.
Greg Gardner:
Yep. Absolutely. And that made an impression on me because again, that’s what we had just talked about for four years during the program. And then I realized, maybe there is more to medicine than just the best practice, the standard. And so during my fourth year, we were deciding if we wanted to stay in Colorado or what our next steps would be. And while I think I’m in my third year is when Prop 2 here in Utah had passed and got some pushback. So I didn’t really know what the status of cannabis in Utah would be, but we decided to come back home. I had some kids out there and I’ve still got family here.
Chris Holifield:
You had kids in Colorado?
Greg Gardner:
Oh yeah. My wife and I. Yeah, we’ve got two little kids. So I think two and four now.
Chris Holifield:
Sure.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah, so they were little and we wanted to be near family. Utah’s a good place to live as far as things that we enjoyed and we wanted to bring some of the things that we had learned in school and culture-wise some things that we could take from Colorado and see if we can bring that back here to Utah. So we did. So we came back to Utah and again, up to this point, I didn’t really understand that a pharmacist was going to be the one who ran a shop at a medical cannabis pharmacy.
Greg Gardner:
As I was about to graduate, I started to see different job postings for cannabis pharmacists. And that really, really got me thinking that, I love talking to patients about cannabis and I had no idea, again, this was going to be a pharmacist opportunity for me. So I applied, I started looking at different job postings and I made that my goal. Again, I had done retail pharmacy for about the last eight years or so. But I wanted to do something different. I didn’t love working for the chains, I didn’t love working for CVS now that took over Target. I didn’t love that.
Greg Gardner:
I was interested in independent pharmacies, compounding medicines. Being able to basically take a subset of our population that doesn’t have a one size fits all medicine and be able to make something unique for them. So that was always a passion of mine and cannabis fits that bill. Having a medicine that’s different, but people are excited about. And people want to take, people are looking for something different.
Greg Gardner:
So that was my introduction on getting into the cannabis industry here in Utah. I’m thrilled that they wanted pharmacists to be involved because that was something that I could use some of my resources and education on and help patients out.
Chris Holifield:
Now, have you been with Curaleaf since the beginning?
Greg Gardner:
Yes.
Tim Pickett:
You were hired before they even opened, right?
Greg Gardner:
Correct. I think their first week of official doors open to patients was the last week of August. They had an official grand opening the second week of October. So I got hired on, I think the second week of August. I was originally hired on as a part-time pharmacist, 20 to 30 hours a week. And so I was splitting that time as well as working in another independent pharmacy doing part-time at both. But I really started to really feel like I was exceeding at the cannabis stuff. I love talking to patients. I love to get their experiences and what was working for them, what wasn’t working for them. And really just, again, seeing a patient come in and be excited about their medication was new. People don’t come in and buy their blood pressure medicine-
Tim Pickett:
No.
Greg Gardner:
…and be like, “I’m so excited about this.
Chris Holifield:
Yes. This is so awesome. I’m so excited.
Tim Pickett:
Give me Metformin. It’s going to make me feel so much better.
Greg Gardner:
Yes.
Chris Holifield:
Or some medication.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Plus you get a lot more opportunity to talk to patients and have conversations with patients. Whereas in the retail pharmacy, it’s a very square conversation, very transactional.
Greg Gardner:
I’ll always remember a conversation I had with a patient, diabetic patient new to their insulin prescription that they were going to use. And I spent probably 15 minutes because I had just done a course on it in school. I was all pumped up, excited to go. So I spent 15 minutes with him talking about how to use insulin, how to do their injections and all that. And then as soon as they left, the patient was excited and my boss comes over he’s like, “You can’t take that long with a patient, too long.” I was like, “What do you mean? I just…”
Chris Holifield:
I hear that all the time. I’m a doctor. I mean, you probably see that yourself.
Tim Pickett:
Oh yeah. I mean, well, in medicine, a lot of times you’re paid by the RVUs, revenue value units. Which is, the faster you go, the more of those you can accumulate. And so the better off it is. In pharmacy, I mean, you’ve got a lot of people to see. A lot of transactions to go through. Is that like Curaleaf? What is Curaleaf… What is their view on this whole thing? They’re a huge multi-state company, international now, right?
Greg Gardner:
Correct.
Tim Pickett:
They bought that huge European cannabis company.
Greg Gardner:
Correct.
Chris Holifield:
Wow. Congrats to you.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. They’re going to be global, which is pretty cool. I’ve actually thought, if Utah doesn’t work out, I was like, “Find me a way to get over into Spain or get into Israel or something.” Something like that might be pretty cool. Like I said, I loved working for smaller businesses, independent. And so Curaleaf didn’t necessarily fit the bill as far as a small company, but they did fit the bill as far as, I’m still helping patients in a way that’s unique. And they’ve been very receptive because every state’s individual, every state has their own legal requirements for being open.
Greg Gardner:
And so Curaleaf is very amendable to, whatever the state requirements are. They will work around those. So we’ve had a lot of leeway since being open. When we were first started, we had, I think maybe four or five agents and again, a head pharmacist and three part-time pharmacists and it’s grown tremendously. One thing that we’ve done down at Curaleaf is, we don’t do appointment-based for new patients that come in, we do all walk-in. And so we have to staff accordingly.
Greg Gardner:
Sometimes we’ll have no new patients coming in on the background. All new patients coming in do have to have a first initial consult with a pharmacist. So sometimes we’ll have no new patients come in for a couple hours and pharmacists, we still check off orders, make sure they’re compliant with the provider’s recommendations. We check them every single time. But if five new patients show up at once, we want to be staffed to not have to turn anybody away.
Chris Holifield:
Where is Curaleaf? I mean, is it right off of I-15 there in Lehi? Or where’s Curaleaf-
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. It’s in the old Del Taco.
Greg Gardner:
Yup.
Chris Holifield:
Oh, okay. I know where that is. It’s one of the few pharmacies in Utah. Well, I guess I haven’t been to any of the ones down South yet, but I haven’t visited you guys. I need to come visit.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. No. You guys ought to come by.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. It’s a pretty sweet setup.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. It’s really great. Yeah. So it’s an old-
Tim Pickett:
Not a huge pharmacy, right?
Greg Gardner:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim Pickett:
How many people do you guys see down there per day? I mean, you see a couple of hundred people a day?
Greg Gardner:
Usually, we’ll average between, I don’t know, 170 and 210 patients a day, which-
Chris Holifield:
No kidding.
Greg Gardner:
So it’s pretty good foot traffic. And it usually it gets busier as the day goes on getting-
Tim Pickett:
And as the week goes on. It seems like Thursday, Friday, Saturday you’re busier.
Greg Gardner:
Oh yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Which was interesting to me to find. I mean, it would make sense in a recreational state, but not necessarily in a medical state, but still there’s a mix of what we would call adult medical use, right?
Greg Gardner:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
It’s easier to use that type of adult medicine on the weekend. I would say, right?
Chris Holifield:
I’d rather use that than get trashed and wake up with a bad hangover or something.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, for sure. Absolutely. So talk to me a little bit about the, I’m just really curious about this, how you grow up in Utah, you go on a mission, where did you go by the way?
Greg Gardner:
In Guatemala.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, cool. Okay. So you go to Guatemala, you come home, you go to pharmacy school, you make it all the way through there. And then you become an expert on cannabis. What’s that like for your family? How do you thread that needle? Your kids are a little too young to really understand that yet, but your wife’s not.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. Actually, my wife loves it. She’s not a user of cannabis, but she is a pretty big advocate for just helping people in… So she’s a mental health professional. She works in school psychology. And so I actually get to talk to her about, one of the qualifying conditions in Utah is autism. So she asked me, she was like, “Well, how is this working for your patients who have autism?” And that’s one of my favorite conversations to have is, anytime a patient with autism comes in, just take a minute to talk with them and say, “Hey, how is this working for you? Why is it working for you?” And then I get to talk with her. So he loves it. She loves that we’re supporting this industry.
Greg Gardner:
My parents that live here nearby, it was a different conversation at first. They still always are prodding saying, “Hey, keep your foot in regular pharmacy too.” But it kind of took… So that neighbor that we had that was a pharmacist-
Tim Pickett:
Careful with that communications degree over there, Chris.
Greg Gardner:
With my parents, they were excited that I had a job. They were really excited to see me thriving, but again, with a little asterisk on it. But it took them, having their neighbor who’s a religious leader and the pharmacist, when they told him, and he’s like, “Oh no,” he’s like, “That’s going to be an awesome job for him.” They’re like, “Okay. It’s an awesome job for you.”
Tim Pickett:
Right? Yup. Okay. We’re on board.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. That’s been how that conversation has gone, but generally have pretty good support from everybody. And initially, not knowing much about cannabis, I had a little bit of a tendency to not sure how people would react when I told them that I’m a cannabis pharmacist. That has completely changed.
Chris Holifield:
And people are like, “You’re awesome.”
Greg Gardner:
I tell everybody that I can, that this is my gig and that I love it. And more often than not, when you tell somebody that you’re like, “Hey, I work with cannabis.” When you think is normal, you be like, “Oh, shame on you.” Really it turns out to be like, “Oh, tell me more. This is really cool.” Any pharmacists that I’ve talked to they’re always like, a little bit of almost like a jealousy like-
Tim Pickett:
What’s that like?
Chris Holifield:
They’re like, “Can I come work where you work?”
Tim Pickett:
Like you said, all the people are happy.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Do you know what I mean? You just don’t have very many jobs where people come in and they get happier and it’s like 99 out of 100 are happier when they leave than when they showed up. That’s a good deal.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. No, it’s great.
Chris Holifield:
I have a question on the pharmacy part. So we’re talking about Curaleaf and even how they expanded worldwide now, and they’re all over. One thing I hear from people here in Utah is, they give the whole pharmacist thing. Oh, that’s such a waste to having them in the dispensaries and this and that. But I mean, Curaleaf uses pharmacists in all their locations, right?
Greg Gardner:
Not out of state.
Chris Holifield:
I thought they used them in all-
Greg Gardner:
They do in some.
Tim Pickett:
But they do. I know I’ve talked to Stuart Wilcox, their business development VP and they like that model.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. For some reason, I thought they… I guess, yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Because they like that medical vibe, right? They believe in that. But they’re out of, where are they out of? I think Georgia.
Greg Gardner:
Up north. So I think they’re out of, this is going to sound bad, Maryland. But I got to double check that one. But yeah, they’re north East Coast.
Chris Holifield:
We’ll say that.
Tim Pickett:
You got it. But I think they do like that medical model. But they only have the one pharmacy here and they didn’t get a grow license.
Greg Gardner:
Correct.
Tim Pickett:
But they’re so knowledgeable. Every interaction that I’ve had with anybody with Curaleaf, they’re just so knowledgeable about the national system. I mean, they just have their system dialed. They’re not struggling to open the pharmacy on time. They’re not struggling for the money to make things happen. I mean, they just seem like they’ve got their shit together.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. I mean, I think they do a pretty good job. I know that they’ve got pharmacists in at least five states out of the 20 that they’re in or so because I have a communication with all of them. We have a little LinkedIn group or something that we’ll get on and chat periodically and yeah. As far as the company I’ve worked for, they’ve been good. And they’re responsive to questions there. Like you said, they have, as far as finances and stuff go, that doesn’t usually seem to be a concern. And so when product’s available to get, they can usually get it in.
Chris Holifield:
Just because to me it seems like a good idea to have a pharmacist available at the pharmacies, in my opinion because I’ve been to other-
Tim Pickett:
It’s made me more sense to me too after originally not being so sure that the pharmacist was a good idea, but it really is helpful having somebody there on the medical side-
Chris Holifield:
Dude, I’ll ask question all the time, man.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Who knows about the interaction between medications and what else the patient is taking and can further that discussion. Because a lot of times we don’t have… I mean, we spend a good amount of time with our patients, but we don’t get into all of their medication lists, all of the time we’re talking about, there’s so much to learn, right?
Greg Gardner:
Right.
Tim Pickett:
We’re just talking about dosing, how to feel comfortable experimenting with it, which I’m sure you’re doing a lot of too.
Greg Gardner:
Sure.
Tim Pickett:
But talk to us about that consultation. What does that normally look like when a patient comes in?
Greg Gardner:
So there’s usually a subset of questions that we’ll ask as a new patient comes in. The nice thing is that we do a triage of a wait list. So when they first check in, we know if they’re a new patient coming in. Again, all patients will pull up on the EVS, we’ll pull up to see if they’ve purchased elsewhere or if they’re, again, completely new to the program. And then we’ll look for any provider notes, uploaded medication lists, basically whatever information we can find on the patient.
Tim Pickett:
Do people actually upload medication lists?
Greg Gardner:
Some providers do. I think the law or the rules changed a little bit where if they didn’t put any recommendation, dropdown menu things, they had to upload a medication list. And so we used to see that more. But they took that requirement away. So now a lot of times we’re just seeing, a drop down menu and what we can sell or how much would be too much to purchase.
Tim Pickett:
Are there a lot of patients that come in with restrictions on purchasing?
Greg Gardner:
It’s kind of a double-sided question. Yes, in the fact that sometimes it’s intentionally restricted on how much you can purchase and usually that’s very clear. So when we see in the notes that says patient… Where the law says you can get four ounces of flower, your provider asks that you can stay under one ounce of flower. So we’ll abide by that.
Greg Gardner:
The tricky one is when providers that don’t have as much experience with the EVS system, they’ll choose a drop menu and put nothing else. So put no information, no anything that says what forms the patient can get. They’re restricted to that one item. And a lot of times that’s unintentional from the providers end. So that’s where a lot of our phone calls to providers will be just, “Hey, this is what the state has asked us.” How they asked us to interpret these recommendations.
Tim Pickett:
Right. Because you’re stuck. I mean, for listeners, when I go into the EVS system to make a recommendation for a patient, you fill out the last four, the social, the name, that sort of stuff. And you hit, okay, I’m going to recommend this patient be able to use cannabis. You then have to go to a separate page and make a recommendation, a dosing recommendation is what they call it.
Tim Pickett:
The truth is, it’s more of a purchasing limit than a dosing recommendation for the most part. But the top form field is all of the different seven types of delivery methods. And you can only choose one in that form.
Greg Gardner:
Correct.
Tim Pickett:
So you’re limited. And if you didn’t know what you were doing, which none of us did in the beginning, right?
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. It’s gotten a lot better.
Tim Pickett:
You pick one, well, shoot. I’m going to pick raw cannabis flower. And then there’s a text box and you’ve got to type in what you want and the next text box is either milligrams or grams. I mean, we have QMPs that we train and they have no idea, right? Well, it’s 28 grams per ounce. Do I write 2,800 milligrams? Well, no, because the flower is only 20%, but then they… And that’s making a simple thing complicated, right? Like, we all three understand, well, it’s 28 grams per ounce. That’s okay. Just put 28 grams as needed, 30 days, write some notes. But to get to the point where you learned that, it takes a long time.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. I mean, we’re what? I think 10 months in and it’s finally seeming like it’s getting easier and easier and things look more and more accurate.
Tim Pickett:
But how many new patients a day do you see that have incorrect dosing?
Greg Gardner:
Most of the time, rarely now.
Tim Pickett:
Okay. Rarely.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. Most of the time it’s rare. Usually, we’ll look and see who the QMP is, and if it’s not a name we recognize that’s the first flag. It’s like, “Okay, let’s go through a little bit more.”
Tim Pickett:
What do you do with those QMPs that don’t understand or they’re new? Do you just, immediately, you have a protocol, okay, here’s what we’ve got to do.
Greg Gardner:
First of all, we’ll communicate with the patient. We’ll say, “Hey based on how your QMP put in your recommendation, it would restrict you to this kind of purchase. Tell me more about your conversation with the QMP. Was this intentional, or was it potentially unintentional?” If the patient’s like, “Oh, no, my QMP that just to get whatever.” We’ll call over to the QMP, let them know. And usually, I’ll just invite them to come to the store so they can see the process. And at that time, I would do some education. If they don’t want to come in or, if they just want to know on the phone, I’ll usually let them know on the phone as well. But-
Tim Pickett:
Here’s what to put in the-
Greg Gardner:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Okay, here’s what to put.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. Pretty much.
Tim Pickett:
Put in the notes per pharmacist recommendations.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. And it’s an interesting thing. All of this, it’s a little frustrating because it’s all just technicalities and it’ll go away at some point. The state has talked about revamping the EVS system. So there’s just three check boxes. I do want to restrict my patient to this forms. I don’t want to restrict my patient to these forms or something. So that’s going to happen at some point soon, but we’ll see.
Chris Holifield:
I’m curious if there are any qualifying conditions that you think should be a qualifying condition in Utah, especially as you’ve gotten more and more familiar with cannabis?
Greg Gardner:
It’s tough. We do have a lot of patients. I mean, we have a whole spectrum of patients. Most commonly qualifying with chronic pain. But because cannabis is so multifaceted, it touches on so many areas, patients are using it for sleep or anxiety or depression. So these are qualifying conditions that I think are treatable with cannabis and patients are definitely using it for.
Chris Holifield:
The depression and anxiety and stuff. Yeah.
Greg Gardner:
Correct. So they’re using cannabis for those conditions I would say pretty successfully. They’re not qualifying conditions because they lack scientific journals and evidence to make them qualifying conditions as far as-
Chris Holifield:
Do you think so though? I mean, do you think only the 14 qualifying conditions in Utah are the only-
Tim Pickett:
Have the evidence.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. Are the only ones with the evidence.
Greg Gardner:
It depends.
Chris Holifield:
I mean, glaucoma, right? Glaucoma’s not a qualifying condition in Utah.
Tim Pickett:
Right? And anxiety is a qualifying condition in other states but it’s not one here.
Chris Holifield:
I’m curious. In your personal, if there is anything that you saw that you’re like, “Gosh, why isn’t this a qualifying condition?”
Tim Pickett:
Right. Do people come in with pain and then they say, “Look, I really just want to sleep better.” Right?
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. All the time.
Chris Holifield:
So why wouldn’t sleep be a qualifying condition? It seems to be.
Greg Gardner:
I mean, legislators, lawmakers, I think there’s… In my understanding, there’s a board of medical providers and they’ll look at whatever they believe is the best evidence and go from there. So we’re part of a coalition, cannabis coalition and talked with Blake from Zion, who’s great. Basically just, how that process goes with lawmakers and legislators and it almost feels like some of them are trying to take away some of the conditions that they don’t believe are-
Tim Pickett:
I think there’s actually more discussion on taking things away-
Greg Gardner:
I know autism is the one that’s-
Chris Holifield:
We should talk about new ones.
Tim Pickett:
…than there is appetite for new conditions.
Greg Gardner:
Correct. Yeah. That’s what it feels like, which is a bummer.
Chris Holifield:
What? Because I know you even said PTSD Tim, but I didn’t know there were others.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I mean, PTSD. The Alzheimer’s one I think comes up now and then.
Chris Holifield:
Oh gosh. Just let the Alzheimer’s people have it.
Tim Pickett:
Right? And I think-
Chris Holifield:
I mean, chances are it’s the last-
Tim Pickett:
…the terminal illness, these rare conditions, HIV, these are things where, boy, if you have those diagnoses, you could do what you want.
Chris Holifield:
Let them live a better quality life.
Tim Pickett:
Right? That’s my opinion. I do like that it’s medical because I… And again, to the pharmacist’s point, having you there to guide people on what to buy, what to use, how to use it. I just think people have such a better experience when they get better education than, hey, I think this might help. I looked up a little bit online. I run down to the dispensary and dinosaur, I get something and I go home and try it. I think there’s evidence to say that doesn’t work as well as the system we have now. There’s going to be a bunch of people that disagree with me on this Chris, but…
Greg Gardner:
Well, it’s important to recognize, everybody that has a medical card in Utah is a medical patient. People’s experiences getting to the medical card, some patients have been recreationally using for a long time. And now are finding a qualifying condition to fit the bill. A lot of patients are brand new to cannabis. And that was my takeaway again from school is, they said, they’re like, “We believe that it would be awesome if there’s a pharmacist dispensing cannabis everywhere because even for recreational patients, you get to talk about, okay let’s just make sure it’s safe or let’s find, is there a better way you can be using this or a safer way or whatever that could be.” But we have that background on providing quick education to patients. Trying to take things that are sometimes hard to understand and making them easy to understand.
Tim Pickett:
What do you think one of the things you have adjusted your opinion is? Because you’ve been doing this 10 months, right? And I know in my experience with patients, my education has changed a little bit. It’s morphed into something different. I talk about dosing a little bit different, I talk about consumption a little different. Overall use, how much people are using, my views have evolved a little bit even in the short time that we’ve been doing it. How has that happened for you?
Greg Gardner:
What I’ve been most impressed with and happy with is that again, we’re staffed with, I think, we usually have three pharmacists on staff at all times. That gives us the ability to talk to returning patients to still continue education on each visit. One thing that I’ve noticed is in the cannabis world, patients at a regular pharmacy, they’ll come in once a month, maybe twice a month if their stuff isn’t on schedule. Cannabis patients come in all the time. They’ll come in weekly, every few days. Some patients buy their whole allotment upfront. But how I started my approach to cannabis education is, I would, without trying to overload patients, I would give them a whole bunch of information upfront and say, “I know it’s a lot of information, try to take some notes and let us know how you’re doing.”
Greg Gardner:
My approach now is a little bit more, let’s introduce you to something. Find you something that’s safe, take notes on how you use it, but come back because you’re going to come back next week. Let’s follow up, let’s see how it’s working for you. So I try to make it more of a journey with patients rather than, this is the one time you’re going to meet with me. So here’s everything you need to know.
Chris Holifield:
What products are people using a lot of that you see down in Lehi, at your location? I mean, are people getting a lot of raw flower? Are they getting a lot of carts, concentrate? What do you guys have different down there? Anything?
Greg Gardner:
Curaleaf, the slight cartridges that have… So vape cartridges is essentially a Curaleaf product. So we do have some things that are made in lab that are Curaleaf branded things that we try to still get out to other places. But there’s two patients that we’ll see. Patients that use the raw flower and they’ll vape or-
Tim Pickett:
They’ll vape that-
Greg Gardner:
They’ll vape that.
Tim Pickett:
…as you put air quotes, right? In there. We try to get people well to vape it.
Greg Gardner:
Right. There’s got to be an understanding of the culture, where people are coming from and how Utah has legalized it, right? And so, we try to be understanding and talk to them openly about that. But the patients that like the flower products. Sometimes they’ll dabble with an edible product or something. And then there’s patients who basically stay away completely from flower, whether it’s for smell purposes or discretion, whatever it may be. So most commonly, for patients, it’s usually vape cartridges and the gelatinous, the gummies.
Chris Holifield:
I was just curious if there was more of carts or more of just-
Tim Pickett:
More non flower in Utah county or at the point of the mountain.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah.
Chris Holifield:
Because my brother has a vape shop in Pleasant Grove.
Greg Gardner:
Oh, cool.
Chris Holifield:
And he’s just said how popular vaping is in Utah county, just because people don’t like that cigarette smell, right? So just was curious similarities there with that weed smell really.
Tim Pickett:
Do you think you sell more vape carts and concentrates than you do flower?
Greg Gardner:
We do. In fact, I just looked at a percentage breakdown of all of our products this morning. So it was 40 something percent edibles, 25% vape cards, 20% flower. I think that’s partly in due just because they’re still, even after a year or a year plus, there still always seems to be a shortage of flower products.
Tim Pickett:
Do you run out of flower still?
Greg Gardner:
Oh yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Wow.
Chris Holifield:
See and that goes back to your mentioning how cannabis patients compare to regular pharmacy patients. Some come in quite often and some, less often so on and so forth. But I find I’ve had to go in more often because of availability. In an ideal world that would-
Tim Pickett:
And being able to purchase an eighth at a time, right?
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. In an ideal world, I would rather go in less often. I would rather go in say once a month, but I found because of availability, I have to go in more often.
Greg Gardner:
I understand. As of recording today, our company doesn’t have a purchase restriction policy. And so as long as you’re within your QMPs recommendation, you can buy as much flower product as you want. I know that’s changed-
Chris Holifield:
As long as it’s available.
Greg Gardner:
Correct.
Tim Pickett:
So that’s different than some of the pharmacies.
Greg Gardner:
I think, yeah. Than most.
Tim Pickett:
Some of the pharmacies you can only buy a quarter or two eighths. Sometimes they were down to one eighth. I remember when Dragonfly was just letting people have an eighth of flower and that was it. That’s all you could buy. But do you think that that lack of restriction is… It’s good for patients in some ways, but it also helps you run out of flower a little bit sooner than some of the other dispensaries?
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. It is a challenge because we’ll look at what menu and availability at all the other shops. And it does seem like we’ll get a lot of things in and then it lasts a week. And so it’s great for the patients that happened to come by that week. Or as soon as something’s available, we’ll get 30 phone calls like, “Oh, is this available? I’m on my way.”
Tim Pickett:
Do you do drive-through?
Greg Gardner:
We don’t do drive-through yet. We have Del Taco’s drive-through-
Chris Holifield:
I was going to say-
Greg Gardner:
…ready to go. But there was actually a Lehi ordinance when we opened up. I think there was a lot of fear or something. So drive-through is one of the things that they excluded from our operating plan. And we’ve met with some of the Lehi officials and they’re much more, oh-
Tim Pickett:
They’re like, oh!
Greg Gardner:
…you didn’t bring hell to Utah county.
Tim Pickett:
Yes.
Greg Gardner:
So that’s something that’s probably coming. If it’s going to be soon, probably maybe in a couple months would be my guess. We have online orders that patients can submit their orders online and come down. We have a register that’s set up specifically for that so they can come right in. And if there’s a line, they can skip the line.
Tim Pickett:
They can skip the line and use… Do you take Hyper?
Greg Gardner:
We don’t. Right now it’s cash only.
Tim Pickett:
Right now it’s cash only.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Okay.
Greg Gardner:
For all listeners, there’s no ATM on site. And so-
Tim Pickett:
So where do you send them?
Greg Gardner:
Maverick. That’s next door.
Tim Pickett:
Oh really?
Greg Gardner:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
But the guy who owns that ATM, he knows.
Greg Gardner:
Oh yeah.
Tim Pickett:
He’s like, “I’ll put cash in the-
Greg Gardner:
Every time we go to Maverick, they’re like, “Why do we have so many people using our ATM now?”
Tim Pickett:
Got it. Any plans to get an ATM?
Greg Gardner:
Not currently that we’ve been informed with. They’ve had multiple attempts at getting debit card readers working with some of the local banks. So I think that’s going to be priority still, is finding a way for people to use their card that they would use it in ATM just to use it onsite.
Tim Pickett:
Right.
Chris Holifield:
Where do you see yourself going within the cannabis industry? I mean, would you like to just stay as a pharmacist? Would you like to get into any other aspects of the industry or are you okay with where you’re at?
Greg Gardner:
One, I love where I’m at. Again, Curaleaf has been supportive of molding the position for whatever’s needs are. So I’ve loved staffing pharmacist, I’ve loved being part of making sure inventories are good and building operating plans. As far as with the cannabis industry, it’s hard to say because in a lot of other states, pharmacists, it’s not a role. And so for pursuing further type career, it’s hard to say what a pharmacist opportunity would be. But I love that it’s here in Utah and I hope that it’s here to stay at least, while Utah’s remains medical.
Chris Holifield:
That leads me to, we get a lot of people listening that want jobs at the industry. I hear this every time I visit pharmacies, “Are you hiring? Are you doing this?” Are you guys hiring on anything? Any kind of just bud tenders or, whatever?
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. We currently have, I think, one full-time position that’s looking to be filled. But because again, movement within the company. So we’ve got a new store manager, is going to open up an assistant manager position. If we hire internally, that’ll open up a full-time position, we move up-
Chris Holifield:
So there’s always stuff, yeah?
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. There’s always things. I think we usually take resumes. We’ll usually have people apply online because they put the postings on Indeed and Glassdoor or something. But, yeah. We do hire pretty frequently.
Chris Holifield:
I’m just curious. Anything else you want to talk to him about Tim? Anything else you want to ask him why we got him? I mean, while we got the mics are hot. Anything you want to talk about, man? Greg, anything?
Tim Pickett:
What’s your favorite strain?
Chris Holifield:
Have you used cannabis yet? Have you used cannabis.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. I’m a medical card holder here in Utah. So yeah, I went from having no experience with cannabis other than learning about it in school. I didn’t have plans necessarily to become a cardholder because again, I just assumed by using cannabis, I would be high. And so when we opened and I started talking to patients about their personal experience and, hey, wait a minute, I get migraines all the time. Or, after I play basketball, my foot’s in pain for multiple days afterwards, maybe I can find something for that. So I did. I got my card. I’ve tried a couple of the vape cartridges. Vape flower, maybe a few times. Edibles, a couple of times. I use it maybe once or twice a week or something like that.
Chris Holifield:
And you find it to help?
Greg Gardner:
Yeah, absolutely. I still have yet to really find how personally for, if I can catch a migraine in the moment. And this is a lot of our education is, what’s going to work fast and what’s going to be helpful for you in that moment? Or, if you’re looking for something quick to work or if you’re looking for something for chronic pain lasting you throughout the day. That’s how you-
Chris Holifield:
You ever tried the creams for-
Greg Gardner:
Absolutely.
Chris Holifield:
I get big knots in my neck, man, just for migraine type stuff with that and stress knots.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. I usually use a cream for, again, topical after playing basketball. And putting on the neck for migraines and stuff. I think it helps.
Chris Holifield:
I find it helps too.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, absolutely.
Greg Gardner:
But yeah. It’s been all good experiences. That’s, I think, like I said earlier, just doing the best with the information that you have, learning about the safety of this medication and why it’s still classified as a Schedule 1. Basically, no medical use and seeing how much it’s helping people and how safe really, even more so than a lot of pharmaceuticals has definitely helped change my perspective on it. I would say having worked in the store and being like, “Okay, here’s all of these things that patients love.” And it definitely intrigued me to get my card more than had I just been meeting with a doctor who recommended it.
Tim Pickett:
Do you feel that experience of ease of use has helped you explain it better to patients?
Greg Gardner:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Or you can do both. Do you think it’s like, no, you have to have a relationship with cannabis in order to be a pharmacist. Or you could not be a consumer of cannabis and still give good education. I don’t know. What’s your opinion about that?
Greg Gardner:
Part of the reason I got my card was because, for so many patients it is experience-based. So that’s part of again, why I was like, “Hey, I fit this criteria.” So that’s what kind of piqued my interest. I don’t believe that you have to use the product. Similar to any other medication. Pharmacists, we can do a whole bunch of education on stuff that we’ve never tried before. Probably most things we’ve never tried before. And I make sure that when we hire staff, that’s very clear to them that, by no means do you need to be a medical patient in order to provide good education. So I make that very clear up front.
Tim Pickett:
That’s good to hear.
Greg Gardner:
Personally, I think it’s been beneficial because I can speak a little bit to how fast something will work and what that will feel like. Or if you do something that’s too much, what you can do to help you alleviate some of those things. And so that’s our ongoing communication with patients are just helping with things like that.
Tim Pickett:
Really cool. It’s cool to hear stories about super conservative LDS people who get introduced to the cannabis space, get involved in it. It helps legitimize it as medicine. It helps everybody else that’s around you and around the people that you talk to legitimize it. It’s a big deal in Utah, especially to have your type of person involved in this.
Greg Gardner:
I hope so.
Tim Pickett:
I love that.
Greg Gardner:
And that’s really why we came back. I feel like being in Colorado, we learned a lot of things and I was like, “If there’s anything I can bring back home, I think that’s awesome.” We want to make Utah and our community as great as we can. So whatever we can help provide, we do so.
Tim Pickett:
That’s awesome.
Chris Holifield:
Do you know your address off the top of your head? Curaleaf’s address?
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. So we’re 3633 North Thanksgiving Way in Lehi.
Tim Pickett:
Right off that first Lehi exit, right?
Greg Gardner:
Yup. If you’re coming from Salt Lake county, it’s going to be the first Lehi exit on your right-hand side. You get off the exit, it’s going to put you right at the Maverick that’s where you’ll want to stop to get your cash.
Chris Holifield:
With the website, because if you go to curaleaf.com, that probably takes you to the main one, I guess, then what would you select? Utah, to see the menu and everything in there.
Greg Gardner:
I usually just Google.
Chris Holifield:
Okay. Just Google it.
Greg Gardner:
So it’s Curaleaf Lehi. It usually works well and it usually links you to our menu. I have had lots of… Well, I’ve had some experiences where somebody’s like, “Hey, I’m here for my online stuff.” I’m like, “We didn’t…” And they’re buying a whole bunch of stuff we don’t have. So they definitely put their order in Pennsylvania or something.
Chris Holifield:
And they’re like, “Well…”
Tim Pickett:
I’m here for my online. Well, you’re not in the right state.
Greg Gardner:
Yeah. Do double-check. Most of the time it works pretty well, but sometimes it does link you randomly to an out of state and place.
Chris Holifield:
Very cool. Well, thanks for doing the podcast with us, man. Thank you so much.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. It’s great.
Chris Holifield:
It’s been awesome to have you on the show and find out about Curaleaf, your products and like Tim says, your story’s a little different than some. But even though, it’s kind of the story of a lot of people we’re bringing through here these days.
Tim Pickett:
It really is.
Chris Holifield:
It really seems like it. Otherwise, for people listening, you can subscribe to the podcast in any podcast app that you listen to podcasts in and utahmarijuana.org is the hub. That’s the main website for everything. So head on over there and check everything out. And I don’t know if-
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. If you have any questions for Chris or I, don’t hesitate to reach out. We are involved in the community now up at WBs and these weeds socials. We’re going to advance and recording. So stay tuned.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, absolutely.
Tim Pickett:
All right. Everybody stay safe out there.
Tim Pickett was recently a guest on episode 141 of the Travel Gluten Free podcast. He joined host Elikqitie to discuss the benefits of Medical Cannabis in helping people with qualifying conditions. It turns out that Elikqitie is a patient of Tim’s at Utah Therapeutic Health Center.
Tim began by discussing how the Medical Cannabis program is set up in Utah. He discussed how licenses are issued to growers, retail sellers, and medical providers. In Utah, qualified medical providers (QMPs) are licensed professionals who can only recommend cannabis to up to 275 patients. That doesn’t allow them to build a business entirely on the cannabis side of things, requiring them to practice standard medicine alongside recommending Medical Cannabis.
In addition to licensing, Tim and Elikqitie also talked about testing. Because testing requirements are so stringent in Utah, a lot of the early product was not usable. This has led to significant shortages on pharmacy shelves. But as time goes on and growers learn the science behind what they do, the amount of available biomass for making Medical Cannabis products should increase.
The conversation eventually turned to different Medical Cannabis strains and terpene profiles. Tim and Elikqitie discussed how different products were applicable to different conditions. Some products are better for pain while others are better for PTSD. Elikqitie herself is someone who micro doses, primarily to help herself sleep.
Tim and Elikqitie finished up by talking a little bit about how to get a Medical Cannabis card. Tim’s clinics are genuine medical clinics staffed by professionals who do more than recommend cannabis and help patients get their cards. If you like to know more about Tim’s clinics or obtaining a card, there is plenty of information at utahmarijuana.org
Elikqitie:
Hey, my friends, this is Elikqitie, and I wanted to give you a heads-up on this episode. So, in episode 141, I talk with Tim Pickett of the Utah Therapeutic Health Center, and we talk about cannabis and all of the health benefits that it enables for people with autoimmune disease. So, just if you are not interested in having your children listen to this, or this is not the type of episode that you’d like to listen to, go ahead and just slide the slider all the way to the end, and then I will see you next week for 142. But if you are interested in how cannabis can help with autoimmune conditions and my experience with cannabis, then sit back, relax, and enjoy episode 141 with Tim Picket of the Utah Therapeutic Health Center.
Speaker 2:
Welcome to the Travel Gluten Free Podcast, where you can listen in on how to lead a gluten-free lifestyle with more fun and ease. Travel Gluten Free is like having a best friend by your side to give you the most up-to-date gluten-free traveler information. Let Travel Gluten Free be your number one source for tips, tricks, and advice you can use to safely navigate your next gluten-free travel adventure. Enjoy food, enjoy travel, and enjoy life. And now, here’s your show host, Elikqitie.
Elikqitie:
Hey, my friend, welcome back to another episode of the Travel Gluten Free Podcast. Today, we are going to have a special guest on, who I’m actually his client at his therapeutic center, and I’m super excited to have him on here. But before we get into the show, I want to ask you to share an episode of Travel Gluten Free with someone you know who would benefit from my show. The more you share, the more you can help others feel safe when they travel. If you have shared an episode of Travel Gluten Free, thanks for your support, and please make sure to rate and review Travel Gluten Free Podcast.
Elikqitie:
And while you’re at it, if you’re interested in checking out some of the really cool places I’ve been lately, definitely check out Travel Gluten Free Podcast on my YouTube channel. All right, today, my special guest is the founder of utahmarijuana.org and Discover Marijuana on YouTube. He is also a Pennsylvania native and is living in Utah, just like myself, and he specializes in medical cannabis for people that have qualifying conditions in Utah. He’s an avid lover of learning and has worked for six years in GI surgery, and has dealt with many, many gut issues with his former patients.
Elikqitie:
He loves to ski and run and watch his kids, and hanging out with his kids and do fun stuff with his family. So, without further ado, I’d like to introduce Tim Pickett from the Utah Therapeutic Health Center. Tim, welcome to the Travel Gluten Free Podcast.
Tim Pickett:
Thanks. I’m glad to have this conversation with you.
Elikqitie:
I am so excited to have you on, because one of the things that I noticed before, not before, but after I’ve had celiac disease for a while, is one of the things that has been bothering me a lot is, I’ve had a lot of really bad joint pain and chronic pain, and one of the things I noticed since I’ve been taking the medical cannabis in Utah is that a lot of my joint pain is going away and it is definitely affecting me less on a daily basis than it used to, and so, I’m really excited about that, and I want to talk about that in a little bit. But before we jump into using medical cannabis for autoimmune conditions, let’s first start out with how you decided to get into medical cannabis, because you are an MD who was a GI MD-
Tim Pickett:
A PA.
Elikqitie:
So, you’re an MD.
Tim Pickett:
A PA, a physician assistant.
Elikqitie:
Oh, a PA?
Tim Pickett:
Yep.
Elikqitie:
Okay. And you were in just like a regular everyday practice. So, how did you go from being a regular PA to being a PA who now takes care of people with medical cannabis?
Tim Pickett:
That is a great question. And it started in basically 2019. Before that, I have a personal relationship with cannabis, I guess, like a lot of people do, but in 2019, I was talking to a good friend of mine, Shawn Hammond, who’s one of the growers in Utah, grows for Zion Medicinal, and we got into these conversations about patients not having access to medical cannabis as the program was developing in Utah, and we saw it as a good opportunity to help people. And I also have some family members and close friends that have had essentially life-changing experiences from cannabis use, and that was kind of the tipping point.
Tim Pickett:
So, it’s a mix of everything. You could say, oh, yeah, I was really passionate about cannabis, which I am. And on the other hand, I like doing my own thing and running my own practice. And as a PA, you don’t get a lot of opportunities to do that compared to the doctors in Utah. So, here’s an opportunity where we don’t have different education than the doctors, the PAs, the nurse practitioners. Essentially, everybody has no education. And so, I can jump into it and be the expert, you can hear that in the background, but it’s-
Elikqitie:
Yeah, I do. My dog is often on the podcast too.
Tim Pickett:
Right? I mean, it’s just, it is what it is, right? So, yeah, I think, as we went through 2019, I started to write a little bit on utahmarijuana.org and blog a little bit about it, and just started to give people info that this is an alternative, it’s just another tool you can use to feel better.
Elikqitie:
Awesome. Yeah, and that’s how I love using it. It’s just, it’s such an amazing great alternative to a lot of the stuff that’s out there. So, how did you decide on Utah in Salt Lake to start? I mean, you guys were already probably here, so, what was the process for opening up your clinic? Because I know there was only-
Tim Pickett:
That’s a great question.
Elikqitie:
… so many clinics and growers that Utah gave licenses for.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. So, there are eight growers. There’s a difference between the growers, there’s eight licensed growers in Utah. You have to have a license to grow medical cannabis. This is different than a license to grow hemp or CBD strains. Then there are retail licenses where you have to have a license to sell medical marijuana or THC products. There are 14 of those licenses in Utah, both of those are kind of industry licenses. Then on the medical side, you have, and we are limited in a different way. So, becoming an independent practitioner, somebody who sees patients, that’s kind of the easy part. You got to get some medical malpractice insurance in a business, and hang a shingle, so to speak, and you can start seeing patients.
Tim Pickett:
In Utah, the requirements are, a four-hour continuing education class. You have to get a little license to recommend medical cannabis. You can’t prescribe it because prescriptions are, imply an FDA approval. So, we are recommending medical cannabis using our First Amendment rights. And once you start down this path, the statute limits us to 275 patients in total that we can make this recommendation to. So, it’s an extremely limited thing that you can do. So, they wrote the laws so that they wouldn’t have specialists, they didn’t want specialists in the state, and we have… So, you end up having to hire more part-time providers and teach them how to do this in order to see more patients. It’s not the greatest business to go into when you can only have 275 customers. Right? That would be a bad, just kind of a bad business model.
Elikqitie:
Yeah, that seems kind of limiting. And so, is it 275 per provider, or 275 per company?
Tim Pickett:
It’s 275 per provider. So, I could see 275, and a PA that we hire can see 275, but it makes it so it’s really difficult to become an expert, because you can only see so many patients. There’s not a real incentive to dig into the science, if I can only do this for 275 patients. To compare, a normal family practice provider might have three or 4,000 patients in their practice total, and so, it’s a disincentive to become good at it, which I think is a problem with the system but we’ll work on that as time goes on, and we can change the legislation.
Elikqitie:
And so, what I know, because you’re a PA, so, you can obviously become licensed to recommend medical marijuana in Utah, but besides a PA, what other types of medical-designated licensed providers can do the extra work to become a certified person who can recommend medical cannabis in Utah?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, in Utah, it’s called a qualified medical provider or a QMP, and anybody with a controlled substance license in Utah. So, that’s limited to PAs, physician assistants, nurse practitioners, MDs, and DOs, or people you would consider medical doctors. We can all do that. Now, there are specialists that can recommend to 600 patients. So, those include GI, endocrinology, neurology. There’s a few specialists whose practice tends to use cannabis a little bit more, and they allow them 600. For example, I see palliative care patients and hospice patients, so, I’m allowed 600 as well through the government system. But primarily, it’s 275, and then there’s this 600 limit for some of us.
Tim Pickett:
But I think if that’s what’s holding you back from getting involved as a provider, we’ve just got to work to change the rules, because it’s more important that we take care of people than it is, we worry about these types of things in the beginning of a program like Utah’s. Utah’s program is just so young. There’s just not that many people who even know cannabis is legal. Right?
Elikqitie:
I know. I was super shocked when I found out that cannabis was legal here. I found out about it because one of my girlfriends had gone to your Utah Therapeutic Clinic and she was having a really bad anxiety because she’s had a lot of personal things happen to her, and she’s like, “I sleep like a baby now. This is really great. I don’t feel so anxious during the day.” I’m like, “I need to check this out.” So, I came to your clinic, and it’s been really, really great. Just backing up for a second, I know we had talked about, because I came on your podcast, the Utah in the Weeds Podcast, and for episode, I think it’s 53 or 54, I can’t remember which one, but if you want to hear me on their podcast, definitely check out Utah in the Weeds episode 53.
[Editor’s Note: Elikqitie appeared on Episode 55 of the Utah in the Weeds Podcast, which you can listen to here.]
Elikqitie:
And either we were talking about how in the beginning, Utah predicted there was going to be 6,000 medical cards issued, and there has been like 25,000 the first year.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, yeah. They definitely predicted much, much lower. And that was how much cannabis was really produced in Utah the first year. All of the growers were anticipating this lower amount of cards, and so, this isn’t like, you just throw stuff in the oven and you have what you need, you’ve got to build infrastructure to grow those plants, to harvest those plants. They have to be tested. There’s been a lot of batches that have been bad and they’ve had to get rid of. And so, it’s been an interesting year. But finally, now we’re starting to see the final few pharmacies open up over the next couple of months, so, we’ll have all 14 pharmacies open, and the product selection is getting better.
Tim Pickett:
The quantity of products are getting better, so, you can now go, like, you can go to Park City, and you can usually find the products that you want consistently now. There’s still some shortage of some high-end products like the resins and some of the hash products, some of the concentrated products that are super strong, but those aren’t very common for people to use. And we could talk about that a little bit more because I would say, those would definitely not be great to start out with GI issues or autoimmune issues for sure.
Elikqitie:
So, I know, on one of the episodes of Utah in the Weeds, you and Chris Hollifield had the producer from Jilu, and I can’t remember her name.
[Editor’s Note: Beverly Astin, the owner of Jilu Premium, appeared on Episode 56 of Utah in the Weeds, which you can listen to here.]
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, Jilu.
Elikqitie:
Yeah, she was really great. She was saying how it’s really hard to get product because there’s all these people that want product, but it takes so long to grow it, and as you said, some of the batches didn’t test out. So, if a batch tests and it’s rejected, what are reasons a cannabis batch would be rejected and you couldn’t use it to sell to a, not a producer, what I’m I thinking?
Tim Pickett:
Well, that’s a good question. So, what happens to these products as they go through? So, you grow a batch of medical marijuana, medical cannabis plants, and you cut them down, and you send them for testing, and let’s say they don’t match what you wanted for quality for a smokable product or a vaporizerable product. Well, then you have, that would be something that doesn’t look the right way, doesn’t smell the right way, or doesn’t meet the THC requirements that you set out to grow. In that case, you might take that product and grind it up and make something else, but Beverly brings up, her issue is, there’s not enough what they call biomass.
Tim Pickett:
There’s just not enough plant material to grind up to make her vape carts or to make the tinctures, to make all of that excess stuff. And that’s, I think that’s a bigger problem than the testing issue. The testing issue tends to come into play with the vape cartridges and things. The way they test and the amount of product they have to get to test is pretty high. So, now that they’re growing more product, it will be a little bit better.
Elikqitie:
And so, if you have a specific like strain you’re testing, and it tests negative for like vape cartridges, can you use it for flower, or is it just not good at all and you can’t use it for any type of product?
Tim Pickett:
Well, if you have a product, like let’s say you have some flower, some bud, right? You just, you have weeds you’re testing and it tests positive for a heavy metal, or you accidentally, there was some contaminant in that batch, it’s over. You’ve just scrapped the whole thing. And so, thousands and thousands of dollars have gone down the drain. That’s a product of the growers, I think. And I’m not the person who’s in the room, so, I’m not saying this is them being bad at their jobs. I think that as we go along in Utah, we’re learning the process, we’re learning how to keep our crops away from different things than contaminants. It’s just that process that takes time as essentially a farmer, a sterile farmer, right?
Elikqitie:
Yeah. And I’m sure everybody has a learning curve because although obviously people have been growing pot for decades, it’s not like a new thing, but it is definitely different when you’re growing it for medical marijuana because you have a lot more testing to do, you have to make sure it’s pure. And what’s the other thing I wanted to ask you? Hold on one second.
Tim Pickett:
Well, I want to add that the nice part about the testing is that you can trust the products in Utah. So, when you’re getting the products here, and you’re not getting them on the black market, you’re getting products that really are what they say they are on the label. They have a very good testing system in Utah. And even like if you go to California, there’s a significant number of dispensaries in California that are buying their product through the back door and selling it out the front door, and not buying it from reputable licensed growers. And you don’t really even know what you’re getting in some of the dispensaries in some of these legal states. California has a big problem with that, and I know that Utah did not want that problem. And so, they’ve cracked down-
Elikqitie:
Yeah. Well, that’s really dangerous because, yeah, one of the podcasts I write show notes for was talking about how like back 20, 30, 40 years ago, people just bought, like when you bought marijuana, it was marijuana. It wasn’t laced with things, it wasn’t dangerous. And now you buy some on the street and you can literally kill yourself in one dose because of whatever it might be laced with that you don’t know, or it’s not even your product, the list of things goes on. So, yeah, that’s pretty scary. And it’s really nice that Utah is so strict on the standards for the processing and stuff.
Elikqitie:
And the other thing is that I didn’t know when I first got into medical cannabis is that the state of Utah limits the number of grower licenses and the number of… So, can you talk a little bit about the licensing for growers and how many growers and how many dispensaries you talk and have right now?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. They started out with the idea to evaluate for 10 grow licenses in Utah, and the state decided to issue eight grow licenses with the option to issue two more later, if they need to. Right now, there’s about five or six of the growers who are growing full out. So, there’s a couple more growers who need to establish their process and build their infrastructure to grow. So, we’re not even up to speed with that yet. But there are eight growers in Utah. They have the ability to grow medical marijuana. Then you have 14 issued retail pharmacies. A few of those also have grow licenses, Dragonfly, for example, downtown, they can grow their own, they can process their own, and they can sell their own wholesome. And Bountiful is another example, they can grow their own product.
Tim Pickett:
Beehive, for example though, and Deseret Wellness, they do not have grow licenses. So, they are simply a retail operation. They have to buy their product from the growers and the processors to sell it. So, there’s a mix of different players in the marketplace, I guess, which should benefit patients because it will increase competition in certain ways, but it also keeps the ability to have kind of tight control by the state for all of these operations because there’s not too many operators in the state. It’s different than a lot of states. I’ve heard in Colorado there’s roads where there’s 20 dispensaries. Imagine 20 dispensaries down State Street in Salt Lake. Utah’s not ready for that.
Elikqitie:
I don’t know, I guess I’m ready for that. Just kidding. I don’t use it that much, but yeah, no, that was really interesting when I first got in because I thought like, oh, anybody that applied could do it, but apparently, that’s definitely not the case. And one other thing, I didn’t actually know that there’s also some dispensaries that are also growers, because when Beverly was on the Utah in the Weeds Podcast, she had talked about, she also applied to be a grower, but they didn’t give her the grower license, they did give her the… Oh, gosh.
Tim Pickett:
Processing license.
Elikqitie:
The processing license.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. She has a processing license with Jilu, and that’s J-I-L-U. And so, that’s another player in the space. Those people, those businesses like Beverly’s, she has to negotiate to find biomass from one of the eight growers, and then take that product in. She then can process it, make her own products and then sell those to retail outlets, who may or may not be growers on their own, in their own right, or they may be just retail operations. So, she’s kind of in the middle, having to deal with both sides and work that out. She’s having some trouble finding enough biomass too. Boojum is another operator like that, they’re up in Heber, and they’re constantly looking for plants to make their products.
Elikqitie:
So, is Utah going to be issuing any more growing licenses this year?
Tim Pickett:
Not this year. They’ll look to get all of the eight, from my understanding, talking to the Department of Health, they’ll look to get all of the eight growers up and running at full capacity, then evaluate the market and see the growth of the number of patients, what they’re purchasing, before they make that decision. They’ll try to stay ahead of it, I know that, but there’s no appetite in the legislature to add more pharmacies or dispensaries or add more growers until they’re up and running and full.
Elikqitie:
So, they want to see the full capacity of what’s licensed now before they add some more on?
Tim Pickett:
Yes. And they want to make sure that, one of the goals of the Department of Health is to make sure that everybody in the state, all four corners of the state, or I guess there’s six corners of the state, isn’t there?
Elikqitie:
Yeah, because we have that little like…
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, we have the little notch. So, yeah, they’ve got to get all of the people in Utah access. That’s one of their main goals. We have access in Salt Lake, we have access in Summit county now with one dispensary, but really, you need to get Iron County more access, you need to get the Moab, that Eastern part of Utah access. That will happen with home delivery, which is starting to get a little more developed.
Elikqitie:
So, I know there’s a process for the state deciding where the next dispensary is going to go, and so, I think, was it Moab who was next on the hit list to get a dispensary? Because that’s pretty far out, but it’s a populated enough place where they could get enough business.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I think there’s three or four counties that are eligible to have these last pharmacies. So, this spring, they added the legislation so they could have a 15th pharmacy focused on a rural area. They’re limiting it to these areas. We anticipate that that pharmacy will go in Moab because it’s the most densely populated of those counties. And then that company will likely have a home delivery system up and down the Eastern side of Utah to deliver to the rest of the rural areas. There’s a pretty big gap in some of these spaces. The furthest South from the Northern dispensary is Payson, is the furthest South, and then you don’t have one again until Cedar City. So, there’s a lot of thought of space between there.
Tim Pickett:
There’s not enough users to put one in between, but there’s enough users that home delivery needs to be a key part of getting people their medicine. It’ll be interesting to see how this all plays out this year, and how that works, because there are some problems with home delivery, they don’t allow them to take cash in home delivery, you have to pay digitally, and you cannot buy weed with a credit card.
Elikqitie:
Oh, I did not know that. That’s why I always have to go to the ATM before I hit the dispensary.
Tim Pickett:
Exactly. And that’s why most of the dispensers have the little ATM inside the dispensary because they can’t accept… there’s no banking for these companies.
Elikqitie:
And so, that’s a Utah law then.
Tim Pickett:
No, that’s a federal law. So, Visa will not allow, because the banks are multi-state, they can’t accept transactions with a federally illegal substance.
Elikqitie:
That’s what it is.
Tim Pickett:
And it all falls under that federal guidelines. So, we’re working on some products. There’re some ways that people are getting creative with ATMs, basically having an ATM transaction inside the pharmacy. You just never see the cash. Yeah, that’s one of the ways they’re getting creative to do this, but that hasn’t quite taken hold in Utah yet.
Elikqitie:
Okay, it sounds good. Well, friends, we’re going to take a break right here, but when we come back, I’m going to talk to Tim about how you can find out how to get a Utah medical cannabis card through Tim’s organization, and also, what strains of cannabis are really good for joint pain and other autoimmune conditions.
Elikqitie:
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Elikqitie:
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Elikqitie:
All right, we’re back, and I know I have my medical cannabis card, I got it in February, and I know there’re certain qualifying conditions, so, just anybody can’t get a medical cannabis card. So, on the list of medical qualifying conditions to get a medical marijuana card is HIV/AIDS, Alzheimer’s, ALS sclerosis, autism, cancer, cachexia, which I… It says-
Tim Pickett:
Cachexia.
Elikqitie:
Yeah, extreme weight loss. I had no idea that existed. Chronic pain, Crohn’s disease, ulcerative colitis, epilepsy, seizure, multiple sclerosis, PTSD, persistent nausea, muscle spasms, terminal illness and conditioning, conditions requiring hospice care, and other rare diseases which can be qualified under medical marijuana. So, I actually qualified under three, but I think I had to pick one, but it’s been really great. So, my experience with your place, Utah Therapeutic Health Center, has been really amazing. So, to get a medical marijuana card, I just called you guys up, came in for a visit. They did the whole interview process because you have to fill out all the forms, say what you had, and then you also have to say what you’ve already tried.
Elikqitie:
So, you can’t just say, “I have PTSD, I haven’t tried anything. I’m just going to come in and get medical marijuana.” So, like, for me, for my PTSD, I’ve done psychologists, I’ve done a few other things, and so, since those things did not fix my lack of sleep or whatever, then I was qualified for a medical cannabis card. And that’s been really great because I’ve been taking medical cannabis to sleep at night, and it’s literally the only way I actually do sleep at night anymore, which is really great. And then I’ve also been taking it for joint pain. So, I take the one to 10 for joint pain, and that’s been really awesome because I also take the naltrexone on top of that.
Elikqitie:
And I actually noticed lately, I can skip taking naltrexone every day, I don’t have to take it every day, if I take my one to 10, which has been really awesome. And then also another thing that’s a side effect of celiac disease is depression, and so, I’ve been taking the lemonade during the day, micro-dosing it for depression. So, that’s been really awesome. So, when someone comes to you, Tim, and then you guys go through the interview process with them, and then they get approved for their medical cannabis card, and then you have to pay the $15 to the state for the card, and then you guys have your services that I pay for. And then you have to get the renewal at three months, which I just did, but it’s been a pretty easy and streamlined process.
Elikqitie:
So, when people come to you for medical cannabis cards, what are the most common issues that people come to you to get a medical cannabis card for?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, great question. The very most common thing that people use medical cannabis for across the nation and Utah is no different, is chronic pain. And in Utah, they define the chronic pain as pain lasting longer than two weeks, that is not well controlled with the traditional therapy or intervention. So, even something like, “I’ve got knee pain, I injured my knee in a car accident or in a ski accident, and it’s been bothering me. I can’t sleep as well because of it. I’ve tried ibuprofen, but it hurts my stomach over time. They’ve done x-rays, I did a little physical therapy.” That’s a qualifying condition, all the way up to somebody who has fused discs, has had multiple spinal surgeries, and that type of chronic pain.
Tim Pickett:
So, there’s a really wide variety of people using medical cannabis for chronic pain. And the definition of chronic pain is very… it really is kind of easy qualifications in Utah with the two weeks of pain. The second most common is definitely PTSD. That’s the only mental health condition that Utah allows medical marijuana for. There should be more sleep, it should be on the list really because it’s-
Elikqitie:
Sleep should definitely be on the list.
Tim Pickett:
It should just be on the list, right? PTSD is studied, there’s a lot of night terrors in people with PTSD. And like we’ve talked about, THC is good at suppressing dreams. So, using it to help with those dreams and to help people get to sleep, it’s a game-changer for people.
Elikqitie:
It’s definitely been a game-changer for me because if you’re one of my friends, Gluten Free friends listening, definitely go back and listen to episode 53, because I definitely suffer from PTSD from childhood trauma, and I had been through the night terrors and nightmares and all that crazy stuff. And yeah, it definitely helps us when I take my indica to sleep at night, it definitely have had a huge reduction in the amount of nightmares and bad, negative things that happen at night, and I feel more relaxed and better during the day. So, that’s been really great. But what are some, like, I take the one to 10 for joint pain, but what are some other strands or strains of medical cannabis that people have taken to control some of their autoimmune conditions, maybe like digestive issues or other things that are really good for joint pain, that kind of thing?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, great question. There’s new research on, there’s two forms of THC, well, there’s multiple, there’s more than two, but there’s THC delta-9, that’s the THC that gets us high, and then there’s THC delta-8, which is derived from cannabis, but it’s not found abundantly in the plant when it grows. So, some of the new products that you’re finding in our pharmacies include more delta-8 THC, and those can be, we find that they’re more absorbed in the gut tissue, and they’re more absorbed peripherally. So, while they don’t get you quite as high, a lot of people don’t like to be high, they help with nausea, and they help with gut health, and there’s symptom reduction in the gut, better than THC delta-9.
Tim Pickett:
So, we’re finding like vape cartridges like Lemon Dream from Zion, Jilu makes one, Forbidden Fruit is another name of a vape cartridge. They have some delta-9 in some of the tinctures that Zion makes. I would say Zion is more, they’ve been making products with more delta-8 than some of the other producers and processors, just because they’re into this variety of different versions of THC. When it comes to joint pain and autoimmune type stuff, the terpene profile, which is things like this called beta-caryophyllene, that’s a strain that’s high in Girl Scout cookies, or it’s a chemical high in Girl Scout cookies, the strain. And it tends to be high in Banana Kush, or these Kush strains, or purple strains, or Haze. If you hear those names, they tend to be better for pain.
Tim Pickett:
And it’s because these different cannabinoids that are in them, and the terpene profiles that are in them, they tend to be more indica strains. Those tend to be a little better for people with physical pain. And then the delta-8 seems to be better for that nausea and those gut issues. Now, you can add a little delta-9 in there, some people really like that uplifting effect, right? And I’m not saying that it’s bad, everybody’s got their own preference. So, playing with that and keeping a journal is really important. But those are some of the go-tos when I talk to patients.
Elikqitie:
So, just for people who are listening, because I know when I got into this, I was like, “There is way so much information, I don’t understand it.” I knew there’s three main varieties, so, there’s the indica, there’s the hybrid. So, the indica is what I use to sleep because that’s the one that helps you put to sleep, and then there’s the indica hybrid. And then what’s the other mainstream-
Tim Pickett:
Yes, sativa. So, you have sativa, which is more uplifting. I took that this morning and I cleaned my whole house and rewarded myself by eating a whole chicken. That’s how I’d describe it. And then you have the hybrid, which is the in-between.
Elikqitie:
That’s pretty spot-on.
Tim Pickett:
And then you have the indica. Now, sativas, because of the way they are chemically, because of the chemical compounds and the variety of chemicals and the percentages, they tend to act just slightly faster. They tend to hit a little bit harder, but they tend not to last quite as long. Indicas, why they help a little bit more with sleep, they tend to come on a little slower, like a slow burn effect, they tend to be more relaxing, and they tend to be better for some pain, but sometimes people, they’re associated with people watching Ferris Bueller and eating popcorn, right?
Elikqitie:
Right. Yeah. And we see, one of the great things about the indica is it does also help with pain because when I wake up in the morning, my joints generally don’t hurt at all, which is really great.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. They’re really the best strains for muscle spasticity, like muscle spasms, if you have restless leg or you have back pain, and you just need a rest, you just need to take a break and get some rest. The indica strains are great. Now, in today’s marketplace, almost everything is hybrid, because there’s been so much crossbreeding of the strains. So, you’re just having to look for things that lean more indica, or lean more sativa. And one of the best ways to do that, frankly, is just keeping a journal. Go down to the dispensary, buy an eighth, don’t buy an ounce, just treat the dispensary like a convenience store, get what you need, go home, try it, keep a journal. And then over time, you’ll find that you like certain effects better than others. You’ll find strains that are better for the daytime than the nighttime.
Tim Pickett:
You talked about lemonade, there’s a tincture with lemonade, and that’s a very sativa terpene, and it’s very uplifting.
Elikqitie:
Yes. And I actually use that micro-dosing during the day, so, when my head’s in that depression fog, and I take two drops or three drops of that, that’s like, it just, I can tell when it kicks in because it feels like somebody turns my head on.
Tim Pickett:
And it’s so interesting to hear you talk about that because you’re talking about dosing without the high. You’re using this in a way that’s just getting it on board, just getting it in the bloodstream, as if we’re using it for medicine.
Elikqitie:
Yes. And that’s the main difference. And it was really funny because my older daughter, who when I told her I got my medical marijuana card, she was like, “Mom, you’re so lucky. You’re just going to be able to be like, sit around all day and be high.” I’m like, “No, I have to work.” So, I don’t take it to be high, I take it to function on a normal level and actually sleep, because when I’m not taking, if I don’t take my indica at night to sleep, I’ll sleep maybe two or three hours for the rest of the night, and that makes for a really, really, really hellish day during the day trying to work and focus and do anything that requires any type of brainpower or focus.
Elikqitie:
And so, yeah, having the medical cannabis has definitely been a huge life-changer for me. I don’t think I could probably work still if I did not have medical cannabis because that’s given me the opportunity to sleep really well, and then I can function during the day. So, it’s been definitely a game-changer for me for sure.
Tim Pickett:
I think it’s really important for people to hear stories like that and to realize that we’re not in this business to just get everybody high. I get that everybody has their own decisions to make, they have their own lifestyle, and I’m totally not opposed to somebody using it as medicine all week, and then Saturday afternoon, hey, take that extra one or two, get creative, play the guitar, do something fun, enjoy yourself. That’s part of life, and that’s part of using what we have around us to, essentially, we’re taking advantage of the plant medicine around us to do what we want to do and to feel better.
Tim Pickett:
And if Saturday afternoons, that’s how you play it, that’s totally okay with me. It’s just that we need to do more education on how to use it wisely, I think, so that people aren’t just thinking that that’s all we get out of it, is just, we’re just getting people high, because there’s just a lot to it, there’s a lot more to it. So, in our condition, in our situation, we spend a lot of time educating, and we spend a lot of time writing content at utahmarijuana.org, and doing the YouTube videos on Discover Marijuana, that YouTube channel, we talk a lot about it on the podcast, Chris and I, because that’s what ends up being the most important and reaching more and more people, to really just de-stigmatize it.
Tim Pickett:
So that you don’t have to, in 10 years hopefully, when we talk about medical cannabis, we talk about marijuana, we’re not getting that immediate response, “Oh, you’re just getting high all day.”
Elikqitie:
Well, yeah. And quite honestly, I tried several different medications to sleep, and I think I tried a couple different antidepressants, and the prescription stuff is usually addicting, it doesn’t work very well. You have really bad side effects. Like, I remember the one, I think it was the Lunesta that I took at night, and I woke up in the morning and I felt so… The only reason I did not get sick was because I actually had some Zofran there, which is the prescription, stomach medication to take, but I was sick all day. I can’t function like that. That’s not something I can live with on a daily basis, just feeling sick 24/7, feeling nauseous all the time. Nobody wants to feel like that.
Elikqitie:
So, I love it because, yeah, sometimes I do feel like if I take a little too much, I’ll feel like a little high, but that’s a way better feeling than feeling sick all day or feeling like your head’s in a complete fog all day, or pick one of the side effects that you get from prescription drugs. I mean, besides the fact that opioids are all addicting, and I think it’s like 80%. So, the recovery center that I were a percussionist for, they said 80% of the people who were in there started off on opioid drugs. And it’s for like people just taking it, like you said, knee surgery, and they take opioids because that’s what doctors prescribe, and they get hooked on them, and then from there, they take other stuff.
Elikqitie:
And so, it’s a way better option than what’s out there as far as side effects, and it’s not addicting and things like that. So, I think it’s really great. And one of the things that I love about going to the dispensary is that all the dispensaries in Utah have to have a pharmacist on hand. And I go almost every, not almost every time, but the first two or three times I went, because I was trying to figure out what’s working, what’s not working, it’s really great to talk to a pharmacist who knows the product, knows which products do what, and can actually recommend you a product. So, if you’re like me who has never tried medical marijuana, and I went in there, and I knew what I was trying to resolve, but I didn’t know what to take.
Elikqitie:
It’s great to go in, talk to a pharmacist who knows what she’s talking about or he’s talking about, and get a really great recommendation that you can try, and then if that doesn’t work out, you just have to like, you’ll go back and try a different strain and tweak it, which I had to do a couple of times, which you have to do with any medicine that you take, not just medical cannabis.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. You’ve really hit the nail on the head, and it’s just complicated. And so, if you’re not used to it, and you’re trying to figure this out, you buy a product and it does work, it doesn’t work, you want to try something else, the pharmacist model has worked out really well for patients, because you can go in there, and at any time you go in, you can just ask the pharmacist. And the pharmacist is going to know some of the interactions between the drugs you might be taking for, maybe you’re taking amitriptyline for GI stuff, and/or Bentyl, which are these common medications for GI issues, and then, you need to go in there.
Tim Pickett:
You can talk to the pharmacist, you can say, “Hey, I’m on this medication, what do you think? Is it going to interact?” And they’re going to be there to help you or to provide resources so that you can go find answers for you. It’s a different type of medicine. It’s very experimental. You have to give yourself permission to try it. Right?
Elikqitie:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
And in Utah, I think that’s a big deal. We’ve got to-
Elikqitie:
Yeah, it’s definitely conservative in Utah. So, I think it’s a little more like edge of the spectrum for a lot of people. But I know, for me, like you were saying about… Oh, my gosh, what was it? About trying and trying something new, it definitely has been a way better option for me as far as like all my autoimmune issues for sure. So, if somebody wants to get in contact with you, because I know that in order to get a medical marijuana card, you have to go through a medical marijuana provider, which you guys do, and so, if somebody’s interested but they’re not sure if that’s what they want to do, what would be their next step?
Tim Pickett:
Oh, that’s a great question. We have, go to utahmarijuana.org, you can read a little bit of articles, you can listen to a couple of podcasts. We have everything there. And that really explains the setup, the requirements for the card, the process of the card. You can then, you can call us. You can schedule an appointment, you can fill out all the paperwork. You can come down, you can meet with a qualified medical provider. And if it’s not right for you, there’s no charge. We’re just, we’re here to educate. And if cannabis is something that you and the provider think will be a good alternative or a good thing to try for you, then you can proceed down and get your card, and you can try it.
Tim Pickett:
You don’t have to feel like, hopefully, people don’t have to feel like they’re forced into it. Hopefully, we’re providing a service in kind of a non-intimidating way too. We really try hard not to… You’re not going to walk into a clinic full of stoners. Don’t worry. This is a medical clinic. We’re all professional providers, we abide by HIPAA, all of the things of normal medicine. We just listen to our patients, and we collaborate with our patients. We make decisions with our patients about what they should and shouldn’t be doing. We don’t make decisions for our patients.
Elikqitie:
Yeah, I really liked that when I came in, because I noticed, my medical provider at your clinic is Austin, and he was really great about answering all my questions. He was like, “Do you have any other questions? Have you tried this? Have you…” whatever. And so, he’s really great at giving suggestions and then answering all my questions, no matter. And I always have a ton of questions because I’m the person who’s always asking you the questions that nobody else asks, but he was super patient, very great, didn’t ever not answer my question or I never felt like I was being just pushed out really quick or anything.
Elikqitie:
I felt like it was a great amount of time for my visit, and I had all my questions answered, and it was really great. Everybody’s been so supportive at your clinic. And I want to tell my Gluten Free friends that you have a special, so, if somebody wants to come in to your office and they do want to get their medical marijuana card, you are offering a special discount for Travel Gluten Free listeners. So, would you like to tell the listeners a little about the discount you’d like to offer them for your clinic?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, absolutely. Travel Gluten Free is the coupon code. So, if you go to utahmarijuana.org, click the Reserve link, or you call us and you just mention that you heard us here talking about this on the Travel Gluten Free Podcast, the code is Travel Gluten Free, and it will be 10% off any new patient visit, new patient evaluation. So, the costs, our normal fees are $250, that includes your… This is essentially joining the club, so to speak. You get an evaluation, we walk you all the way through the card process. We take care of your 90-day renewal for free. We check in on you. That’s all included.
Tim Pickett:
You can visit with me, if you need to, you can visit with our other providers, really as much as you need. We don’t charge extra for any of these other visits. But if you use that coupon code, that’ll save you an extra $25 off that first visit.
Elikqitie:
Yeah. And that’s really awesome. And for people who are like, “Well, I have medical insurance, I might go to a regular medical provider.” I have medical insurance but I decided to go with you guys because it was just much easier to get my medical cannabis card through the Utah Therapeutic Health Center, and paying $250 to be pain-free and to be able to sleep is a no-brainer for me. There’s nothing in the world that could have substituted me being able to sleep. So, it’s been really great and I loved it. And so, Tim, I know you have four locations, so, can you tell us what are your four locations that people can come and visit you at?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. We have a location in downtown Ogden, on Grant. We have a location that is in the same building as Wholesome Cannabis Co in Bountiful, Utah. We have a location in Millcreek on 39th South, 7th East. That’s a great location to go. We have a location in West Valley, right across the street from Beehive Pharmacy. And we also opened up our fifth location in Provo. So, if you need to be seen in Utah County or South, that’s on Draper Lane, that’s in the same building as Deseret Wellness in Provo. So, we like to be close to the pharmacies, we think it’s a great integration, so that people can come, they can talk to us, they can get all their questions answered by us.
Tim Pickett:
If we can’t answer the question, the pharmacy’s right there. And so, it’s a good mix. And like you say, if you have insurance and your provider is somebody who doesn’t like medical cannabis or they’re not comfortable with it, and you want to go see somebody who knows a little bit more and can walk you through the process, come see us. Well, I’m not opposed to insurance, I want to bill insurance just like everybody else. We’re just dealing with a still federally illegal substance, and so, it’s almost impossible to get them to pay for these visits upfront until we change the federal law.
Elikqitie:
It’s time to write a letter to President Biden.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, it is. Get your aviators on and write the letter.
Elikqitie:
That’s awesome. Well, Tim, at the end of every interview, I always ask people the guilty gluten questions, but I know you’re not gluten-free, so, these don’t apply to you, so, I’m going to skip over those, but you’ve already told us where people can find you, so, what are your future plans? You’re obviously going to be working at the Utah Therapeutic Clinic and growing that. So, are you guys going to add anything new to your clinic in the future or are you just going to keep doing what you’re doing right now?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, we’re going to add a couple of things I would say is, we’re going to continue to add locations in different areas of the state to help people get access to medical cannabis. We’ll open this summer in Cedar City, right in the same building that Bloom Medicinals is in. Watch for that in July or August. St. George is another place that I’d like to be, to help people down there. So, we’ll continue to work on that. The other thing we’re working on is a patient series, where we do interviews with patients and then make one big, long playlist of patient interviews on Discover Marijuana, on that YouTube channel, so that people who are scared or they don’t really know, they want to hear a couple of stories like yours, about PTSD, and how you decided, “Okay, maybe this is for me.”
Tim Pickett:
And they just want to listen to a few of those stories and find out more. That’ll be coming out probably later this summer, maybe September, those patient stories will start to flow out. So, there’s so much to do.
Elikqitie:
Yeah, for sure. I mean, yeah, you guys have a really great clinic, and it’s really well-run. And like you said before, it’s like, not like a bunch of potheads who are in there. I mean, obviously, everybody who’s in there does take medical cannabis, but I was really impressed because when I came into your center, it was very clean, very well-run, very efficient, very professional. And I was really impressed by all the stuff that you guys have to offer. Well, Tim, this has been such a blast. I’m so glad you made the time to come on the podcast. So, thanks so much for coming on the podcast today.
Elikqitie:
And for my Gluten Free listeners, remember, you tell them when you call, either say you’ve heard it on Travel Gluten Free Podcast, or when you’re making the reservation online, use Travel Gluten Free, not podcast, Travel Gluten Free, to get your 10% off. Yeah, Tim, thanks again for coming on the Travel Gluten Free Podcast and chatting with my gluten-free friends today about how to use medical marijuana for autoimmune disease.
Tim Pickett:
Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2:
Travel Gluten Free Podcast is a production of Travel Gluten Free LLC. Looking for a great way to connect with over 2,000 consumers per month? Contact Elikqitie for information on sponsorship levels to boost your business. Subscribe today so you won’t miss a single episode of Travel Gluten Free. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Pandora, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.
In this episode of Utah in the Weeds, Tim and Chris discuss what it is like for Tim to be a Physician Assistant (PA) and qualified medical provider (QMP) under Utah’s Medical Cannabis law. Tim recently won the ‘Best Medical Cannabis Doctor in Utah’ award, even though he is not technically a physician.
Tim has had a year-and-a-half to get acquainted with legal Medical Cannabis in Utah. [01:28] Along the way, he has been persistent about studying the topic. He mentioned he is really enjoying the clinical side of it; being able to work with patients to teach them how to use cannabis for their particular conditions. He is learning as much from patients as he does from his own research.
After talking about some things Tim was doing in Ogden, the conversation turned to a brand-new group Tim helped to found. [09:48] The group is called the Utah Medical Cannabis Advisory Group (UMCAG). The UMCAG is working with other parties in Utah toward facilitating changes to the state program. For example, the group is working on increasing existing patient caps.
Tim mentioned that the UMCAG is also working on developing best practices between QMPs and pharmacists, for the purposes of making sure patients get the help they need in figuring out which products to use and how to use them. [11:09] Even increasing the number of qualifying conditions is on the table.
Chris and Tim eventually transitioned the discussion to some questionable products now making it to market by way of legal loopholes. [18:39] They cautioned listeners to be very careful about what they purchase and from whom they purchase it. Medical cannabis users should keep their use strictly medical, buying their medications only at legal pharmacies and under the supervision of their QMPs and pharmacists.
Chris Holifield:
All right, and we’re going, doing things a little bit different today on episode 63 of Utah in the Weeds. First of all, let’s introduce ourselves so people that are listening, they’ll know who’s talking on the other side. My name’s Chris Holifield.
Tim Pickett:
And I’m Tim Pickett. Can I just jump right in here, Chris? Apparently the best cannabis doctor in Utah, that’s yours truly. I won the award, thank you.
Chris Holifield:
Dude, this is a pretty big deal, Tim, and this is what I’ve been trying to tell you I like. And I think you know how big of a… And cool, it is that you win, what is the actual title? It’s the best… You sent me a link to that.
Tim Pickett:
Best Medical Cannabis Doctor in Utah. Now, I mean, I’m not a doctor, okay? I’m a PA, some would call me just a PA, that’s totally fine you can call me whatever you want. You can call me a Pot Doc, representative ward called me that one time on TV. Well, he called all of us that, he didn’t call me specifically that, but you know what I’m living, right? The Gen Z-ers, the millennials, they’ll say, “You’re living your best life,” right? I literally teach people how to consume cannabis for a living, and apparently, people think I’m really good at it, which is awesome.
Chris Holifield:
Are you enjoying it?
Tim Pickett:
I am enjoying it. I’ve been in clinic lately, a lot. We’ve had a lot of days where I’ve been able to go in and see patients and man, I really like it. I like teaching people how to tweak their use a little bit and how to get more out of it, and learning from patients and talking to them. And lately, it’s just been really fun.
Chris Holifield:
What are some things that you’ve noticed now, okay? So now that you’re the best Pot Doc in Utah? You’ve had this whole year and a half, you’ve really gotten into it, you’re studying, you’re discovering all these things, you’re meeting with patients, what are some things that you’re finding out now that you’re like, “Man, I wish I would’ve known that a year ago.”? Even things, regimens with patients or ways to use [crosstalk 00:02:18] I guess that’s such a huge question to ask you, but I’m curious [crosstalk 00:02:25] things you now that you didn’t know then.
Tim Pickett:
Well, first of all, I mean, I vividly remember seeing our first patients and the fear of recommending a federally illegal product was just… It was a little overwhelming for a little while. So, that we’ve got through and I’ve gotten much more used to talking about it, talking about it with patients, being okay with different things, right? There are a lot of people who smoke and just want that experience of the flame. So I guess part of me really likes this idea that Utah hasn’t allowed the flames, and part of me is coming around to the idea that we’re probably just not going to get rid of flames.
Chris Holifield:
People get really hung up on that.
Tim Pickett:
They really get… Yeah, and they want to use it like they’ve always been using it. New patients are more receptive to using it in a way that they’re taught, and they want to be a little more healthy about it as far as their lungs. It’s that sort of thing, the other things that I think are very interesting are, we spend a lot of time, sometimes we go down the rabbit hole about different cannabinoids, like CBD, and CBG, and CBN. And we try to… We essentially overcomplicate it, right? Look, we’ve been using this plant for thousands of years, really, medicinally, a lot of it really isn’t rocket science, it just helps people feel better and that’s okay, right? Sometimes we don’t need to make it rocket science, we just need to use it wisely.
Tim Pickett:
Another thing that I find very fascinating about the way I’ve been teaching people and learning is, I was thinking about cannabis, this is an evolution of my feeling about how to use it better. And in the beginning, I was having a lot of discussions about just using what you need and keeping your tolerance really low, but I found I’m educating patients to use smaller doses more consistently. So maybe the same amount of total THC per day, or per week, or per month, but using it much more consistently in small doses, so I’m becoming an advocate of different types of products like using low dose edibles and then vaping flower on top of a low dose edible.
Chris Holifield:
Interesting.
Tim Pickett:
Because I feel like you’re getting more consistency. So yeah, I mean, my knowledge and my experience with it is definitely getting better. And every conversation I have is just another, like I say, another way to tweak the use or to learn more myself, and it’s been really fun.
Chris Holifield:
I want to go back a little bit. You were mentioning how talking about cannabis, right? You’re finding it’s a little easier to talk about. Are you finding the same thing with patients, people coming into the clinic? Are they having a little bit easier time talking about it versus when it first opened up? Again, back to… We’ve [crosstalk 00:05:47] talked about this.
Tim Pickett:
Totally anecdotal here, Chris. But I [crosstalk 00:05:50] was in Ogden yesterday, and I was in Millcreek the day before. And in Millcreek you would see, there are, I guess on average, it’s totally stereotyping here, but in Ogden it seems like people have an easier time talking about weed than in Millcreek.
Chris Holifield:
Okay, that’s what I was wondering.
Tim Pickett:
Right. There’s different pockets of people. Certainly, we’re starting to see more people on the much more conservative side. I’ve seen people who work in the temple a few days a week, the LDS temple, and they’re using really super low dose gummies to keep their neuropathy at bay while they’re on their feet. Just some really interesting stuff, right? With the church and our culture, and people starting to accept this a little bit easier. People who… Still it’s just so surprising to me that, because I work in this all day, every day, that people still don’t know it’s legal. I mean, yesterday I had two people that they were like, “Wow, I didn’t even know I was going to qualify,” or, “I didn’t even know this was legal.” Like flower, people still come in and talk about how you can’t… “Oh, no, I thought you couldn’t have flower, you can only have oil.”
Chris Holifield:
Because people, remember when it first got introduced, I guess to Utah, the possibility is there was such bizarre ideas, the blister packs and all of that.
Tim Pickett:
Oh yeah, I remember the blister pack discussion.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. Where in Ogden is your clinic located? Is it on 25th Street?
Tim Pickett:
It’s 2385 Grant, so if… Downtown Ogden, there’s Roosters, we’re right around the corner from Roosters, we’re right down the street from WB’s, I think WB’s is on 24th.
Chris Holifield:
We had a listener send us a message on our Instagram and they were wondering, “Hey, do you record up in Ogden?” And I’m like, “Why?” I guess there’s a Utah in the Weeds thing in a window, on some businesses [crosstalk 00:07:56].
Tim Pickett:
There is. That’s my… Well there is in my… There’s a Utah in the Weeds and in our location, Utah Therapeutic Health Center [crosstalk 00:08:04].
Chris Holifield:
So maybe that’s what it was, because they’re like, “On 25th,” or something, and I’m like, “Oh, I wonder what business that is.” I wasn’t quite sure.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, we get a ton of people who are going to the farmer’s market who walk right past us.
Chris Holifield:
Okay.
Tim Pickett:
And so we put out the Utah in the Weeds sign, right? We put it in the window.
Chris Holifield:
Well it’s working [crosstalk 00:08:21].
Tim Pickett:
Ogden is a really fun place to work, I like Ogden.
Chris Holifield:
Well, let’s talk about, so the Weed Social’s actually next week, in Ogden.
Tim Pickett:
Right, in WB’s, and we want to go.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
I was texting with the owner yesterday. We should go up and record our podcast. WB’s Eatery in Ogden, it’s next Wednesday, 6 23, 5:30 PM, the Cocktail and Cannabis Club. You know what I was really… Did you have one of the dry cocktails while we were up there?
Chris Holifield:
I didn’t, no.
Tim Pickett:
Because they were so good.
Chris Holifield:
Really?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. They have a bite to them, a little depth to them. So if you’re somebody who uses cannabis, right? We don’t use, we try not to mix alcohol and cannabis, not really a good idea to mix THC in cannabis, but-
Chris Holifield:
Well, I had some bad experiences mixing those two back in the day. Oh man, I got some stories.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, so they make dry cocktails up there and they’re really good. And you sit there and have a dry cocktail. I mean, you can’t consume cannabis in public, but…
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, come on up and hang out with us, and hang out with Tim and I and the rest of the cannabis users here in Utah at WB’s at the Weed Social. I want to talk about this medical advisory group that you started.
Tim Pickett:
Oh yeah, so we started a [crosstalk 00:09:42].
Chris Holifield:
Because you were like, “Chris, I started this medical advisory group. We could talk about it on the podcast.” Well, let’s talk about it, here we go.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Okay, so we formed Utah Medical Cannabis Advisory Group, so it’s a small group right now. The founding members are a group of pharmacists. Usually the pharmacist in charge of a couple of the pharmacies and a few QMPs who are really involved in the system. Laurel Krupski out in West Jordan, and Dr. Andin up North, and some of the best pharmacists, right? Mindy Mondeo, Kevin Baumgardner from Dragonfly, Josh Fitzgerald and Kylie from Wholesome. Anyway, we’re building this group with help with the Utah Cannabis Association and the cannabis co-op, trying to get a small group of us to help prioritize a couple of things that we want to see changed. Now that we’ve been a year in the system, right? we know that we need patient caps increased for good providers, right? I mean, if you want to bring, well, I mean, if you want to bring your aunt and see somebody like me, we’re going to need those patient caps increased because I can’t see a lot more, very many more patients.
Tim Pickett:
We need to figure out what the best practices are between the QMPs and the pharmacist. Right now, there’s not a lot of communication between the two groups, which is fine for most people. Most people learn to use cannabis and they’re okay, and they can talk to me, they can talk to the pharmacist, and they navigate it, right? We talk to Chrissy, or we talk to Mr. King, Zach King, right? Like they’re going to navigate it themselves, but there are the people who need… We need to close that loop, right?
Tim Pickett:
If I change a medication, the pharmacist needs to know, so how can we do that? So we’re trying to just start somewhere and talk about what the needs are of the group. Here, I got my… I even got my notes right here from our meeting, right? We’re talking about the Compassionate Use Board, we brought up smoking, should we prioritize? What do we think about smoking? We know that there’s a lot of people who are still going to be smoking cannabis, and that’s the reality, should we lie and just say that’s not happening, or should we just be honest and allow it and just educate around it?
Chris Holifield:
Well, and that’s what’s lame, right? You got all these people that they’re trying to be legal, they’re getting their cards, and then they’re like, “Oh, screw it. I’m at home, I’m just going to use a flame.” And it’s like, aargh.
Tim Pickett:
Right. Which is right. The other thing is qualifying conditions, right? So pain lasting longer than two weeks, well, that’s pretty much, there’s a lot of people who have pain that’s recurrent that lasts longer than two weeks. And you end up… A lot of, not all the time, but we end up having a guy who had ankle surgery. Okay, they come in, the woman comes in, she’s got anxiety, depression, she wants to use cannabis. Well, those don’t qualify, [crosstalk 00:13:06] but she had ankle surgery, right? And she can’t sleep, right. So then you’re talking to them and well, they had ankle surgery two years ago and that causes a lot of pain and okay, well that’s the qualifying condition, but primarily the patient is going to be using THC for the anxiety and the sleep. So the system is built… The legislators built the system in this way, but the reality is there’s a lot of people out there with pain as their qualifying condition, but they’re using, I mean, they’re really using THC for something else.
Chris Holifield:
I can’t believe sleep isn’t a qualifying condition in Utah, because sleep, especially, the sleep drugs out there are so bad for you when you have such a beautiful thing like cannabis to help you get a good night’s sleep.
Tim Pickett:
Right, I mean-
Chris Holifield:
Why isn’t that not legal? Why is that not a qualifying condition?
Tim Pickett:
Exactly. And do you want to just, I don’t know, we talk about it on the podcast too, we’re not being honest with the way the system is working or not working, and that’s…
Chris Holifield:
That’s Utah though, Utah sets things up for that, man, that’s loopholes. Remember loopholes back in the day, private club for members, it was so we could smoke in clubs and do all this stuff, and it was just these loopholes. Utah’s famous for that man, that’s what we do.
Tim Pickett:
Right, the beer garden [crosstalk 00:14:37] up at Snowbird, right? You’ve got this little “beer garden”, you can’t go out, you can’t go in. Yeah, and so maybe they like that, maybe that’s okay. But our group is going to put a report together and say, “Here is the reality.”
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Right? Here’s what people are actually using cannabis for, regardless of what the law says, these are legal cannabis users, but their primary qualifying condition might be pain or PTSD, but they’re also using it for sleep, they’re using it for anxiety, they’re using it for… Yeah, the two big ones that they want to add are anxiety and insomnia.
Chris Holifield:
See, my only thing with anxiety though, is I see so much. The stuff I see out there when I’m reading about cannabis, you get this one side saying, “Oh, if you smoke marijuana, it’s just going to cause more anxiety, blah, blah, blah.” So that’s what I worry about, is that people on the hill are just going to be like, “Oh, that’s just going to cause people more anxiety.” So…
Tim Pickett:
I see both sides for sure.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, it’s what’s called biphasic, so at low doses, it might help your anxiety. At high doses, it might cause it to be worse. Chronic users that stop, they tend to have a little more anxiety sometimes when they are going through the washout period. So I get both sides. The Cannabinoid Review Board is another board that we want to influence, they’re a group of professionals in Utah who make recommendations on whether or not a condition should be added. And so, but they’re not really asking us to weigh in, and we think… The pharmacists who see the patient at the dispensary, they really know, they should be involved in that discussion and those recommendations.
Tim Pickett:
So we’re going to try to put together some reports and be helpful, and if people have, if our listeners have issues with the program, reach out to me at utahmarijuana.org and we’ll put it on the list and we’ll bring it up in the meetings. We’re going to meet every couple of weeks for a while and try to get a good voice for the patients in Utah. It’s kind of a cool group, I’m glad we’re putting it together.
Chris Holifield:
Growing at home, no, we don’t need to get into that topic. Home grow, I mean, that seems like such a far stretch, and I know that’s what everybody wants, but it’s just… To me, that just seems like the last thing they would ever allow.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, we didn’t even bring it up last night, it’s not even on anybody’s radar just because we think it’s not feasible to ask for, there’s no way we’re going to get there for a while, and the industry doesn’t want it either. These pharmacists, they work for the dispensaries, and the dispensaries don’t want you to grow at home. I mean, I’ll be the first to tell you, they want you-
Chris Holifield:
They want their money, man.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I mean, their investment’s not paid back yet. They got to get that revenue first, which will take a while, I guess. How are prices out there too? Bloc’s Pharmacy opened, on 103rd, I heard they’re selling 45 or 50 bucks an eighth for some of their, I think it’s the popcorn buds.
Chris Holifield:
32… I want to say even 32 is some of the prices I saw on their website there, Tim-
Tim Pickett:
Oh, wow. So people are, I mean, I think prices are getting pushed down a little.
Chris Holifield:
Actually, yeah. And I think they’re having, speaking of Bloc, they’re having a grand opening this weekend, the June 19th for customers to stop in-
Tim Pickett:
Oh, for Juneteenth?
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. I wish I would have that in front of me, but I don’t.
Tim Pickett:
Did you hear that’s going to be a federal holiday?
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, no, that’s kind of cool.
Tim Pickett:
That’s kind of cool.
Chris Holifield:
Tim Pickett:
We should probably mention, I know we talked about this a little before we started recording, but we should just probably mention the fact that there are some products out there that people… One of the other things this board talked about was products that really aren’t supposed to be on the market, but they are. There’s these products, there’s these CBD products that have THC in them that you can buy at the vape shop or at the CBD store, and they’re getting to be a little more popular. And I’m not going to mention any brand names or any people in this, but there are…
Chris Holifield:
This goes back to loopholes, man.
Tim Pickett:
This goes back to loopholes. There is a loophole in the law, apparently where the department of agriculture has approved some CBD products and they have a bunch of Delta-8 THC in them, which will get you high, it will get you high. And we don’t- [crosstalk 00:19:34].
Chris Holifield:
From what you’ve heard though, you haven’t personally tried them.
Tim Pickett:
Okay. I’ve used Delta-8, I know Delta-8 will get you high.
Chris Holifield:
Okay.
Tim Pickett:
But it’s different than Delta-9, it’s more of a body… I can’t, it’s hard to explain. It’s not the psychoactivity of the Delta-9, and it’s already controversial because people don’t, some people really don’t like Delta-8, because it’s not produced in the plant. They have to… You have to… It’s not synthetic, but you have to derive it from the plant with this strong acid conversion, so it requires a significant amount of processing to get it done. And then you put it in CBD and then they’re selling these CBD products that are essentially getting people high. And they’re not tested the same as the products in the pharmacies, okay? We’ve looked at the certificate of analysis, they’re not easy to read, and they’re out there, but it’s this loophole in the law that allows this product to be sold. And apparently, it’s completely legal, and they’re flying off the shelves, of course.
Chris Holifield:
Well, of course, because once word gets out there, one person tells another person, so on and so forth. But I think this is such, it gives the whole industry such a bad name because it just… I just don’t like it, it looks trashy.
Tim Pickett:
I feel like you’re right. I mean, it just, I mean, it’s out to make a buck.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
I don’t know that it’s really that, is it medicinal? I don’t know. I guess I have a hard time really arguing totally against it, because my line of what I think is right and wrong is here, and your line might be a little bit different, and maybe the owner of this product is like, “Hey, we got to get this product out. It makes people feel better and we’re doing our best to make it clean.” But it’s not, it cannot be really legal, right? Getting people high…
Chris Holifield:
Well, I think there’s more to medical cannabis than just getting high. That shouldn’t be the end goal of medical cannabis, just to get high.
Tim Pickett:
Right. And [crosstalk 00:21:55] okay so, let’s compare it. Let’s compare it to, I mean, you wouldn’t go out and buy an over-the-counter, or a pill, right? Compare it to a pill. You’re not going to go out and buy some pill, you don’t quite know everything that’s in there. It’s just [crosstalk 00:22:12].
Chris Holifield:
… black market for all the…
Tim Pickett:
All the pills.
Chris Holifield:
And then all that of that. So it’s like, “Well, okay, yeah.”
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. It’s just, there are… Anyway, I guess the bottom line is, be careful what you’re buying out there, know what’s in it. If you’re taking a CBD product and it is getting you altered, take it into your cannabis pharmacy, take that and the package into your cannabis pharmacy and show it to the pharmacist, and get their opinion of what that is. That’s what I would say, because they’re going to know.
Chris Holifield:
Back to these gummies that we’re talking about here, Tim, are they cheaper? Would they be cheaper to buy than versus going into a Utah pharmacy to buy gummies there?
Tim Pickett:
I think so. I think they are 35, 40 bucks a package. And I think [crosstalk 00:23:09]. I don’t know.
Chris Holifield:
Because I was going to say, I’d rather just get something at the pharmacy. So this is more for people that don’t have a car?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, this is, what is a package of gummies at the pharmacy?
Chris Holifield:
Because I was going to say those, how do you pronounce it? Heikki? Haeji? Or something.
Tim Pickett:
High Chews, [crosstalk 00:23:25] that guy knows how to build gummies too. I mean, those gummies are really good.
Chris Holifield:
And I think depending on what milligram you go, they’re anywhere from 30 to 50 bucks for those. So what’s the difference? I mean, I’d rather go get those.
Tim Pickett:
I’d rather just, I think people should, I agree. [crosstalk 00:23:44] Just go get the deal that was tested, approved, no controversy, you know what’s in it, everybody agrees it’s a clean product. Do it, just do it in a way that you’re not really risking your own health, I guess.
Chris Holifield:
Because we don’t know the long-term things, because even going back to, I know I brought this up a couple of times when we haven’t recorded about Spice, right? I’ll admit it here on the podcast, I smoked plenty of Spice back in the day, but I didn’t know it was horrible for you. And then you find out a little bit later on like, “Oh, you shouldn’t be doing that,” so you’re like, “Okay.” And again, for people listening, this was 20 years ago, this isn’t like I was doing this last week, this was stupid me 20 years ago.
Tim Pickett:
Right. And this is just, it’s the same type of thing. In New York, they outlawed Delta-8 for this type of product, just because of this, because it’s a loophole all over the country apparently. Oh no, yeah, mango peach, dragonfly, a 10 pack of 20 milligrams, 32 bucks a block, down on 103rd.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
This is, you’re not saving any money.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, [crosstalk 00:24:52] why not, why would you even, why not just go get the good stuff?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Just go get the real deal, and you know what’s in there, and it’s labeled. That’s the other thing about these gummies, I mean, I’m looking at the label and it does not say THC Delta-8. It doesn’t say anything about, other than at the bottom, it says, “Contains THC, keep out of reach of children and pets. It’s against the law to operate motorized vehicles under the influence of this product. [crosstalk 00:25:21] Do not mix with alcohol.” I don’t know. Oh, this business we’re in Chris, it’s the wild west.
Chris Holifield:
Anything on a national level going on? I know Connecticut just legalized recreational, today as we’re recording this, I know that’s going on.
Tim Pickett:
They’re dropping like flies, seems like, right?
Chris Holifield:
So I didn’t know if you heard anything more about any of the more [inaudible 00:25:45], [crosstalk 00:25:45].
Tim Pickett:
What I did do is I met with Hypur, so after our conversation, if anybody wants to listen to that podcast that we did with Tyler, the CFO of Hypur.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, go back last episode.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, last episode. I went back to Hypur and I met with them because I wanted to figure out exactly how to sign up, what the hiccups were, and learning more and more. And yes, apparently those cashless ATM’s are going away, like he talked about, like we saw in, I don’t know, maybe you saw one in Denver, I saw one in Vegas when I was there.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. [inaudible 00:26:25].
Tim Pickett:
So those are going away, and then the same-day ACH payment. And a lot of people were bashing on Hypur, but I signed up, it was easy. Connect your bank, took about two minutes to hook up. Yeah, I’m thinking about just taking Hypur payments in my clinic and helping people get signed up, right?
Chris Holifield:
That’s not a bad idea at all, and then they would already be signed up, and then they’re [crosstalk 00:26:51] on the phone. Because I mean, I found Hypur again. I was using Hypur in Denver, when we were out in Denver. So it made it really nice to already have it on the phone.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I’m interested in making the process more and more seamless for people, and maybe that’s a good thing, we should just start taking Hypur in my clinic.
Chris Holifield:
And hey, we could take Hypur here on the podcast. If anybody wants to Hypur us a donation-
Tim Pickett:
Hypur us a donation. Hey, and Chrissy put together a sponsorship. We’re just all over the place today, but the sponsorship… You want to sponsor the podcast? We now have… We got a little pricing structure, I filed with [crosstalk 00:27:28].
Chris Holifield:
… Tim and myself, and let us know you’re interested and we can hook you up with all the info.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. We need to promote good products, and so we’d be happy to do that. Yeah, there’s tons of, I’m just looking at the menu right now, there’s tons of gummies for 35, 40, 50 bucks.
Chris Holifield:
Are you on the Bloc website?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. [crosstalk 00:27:48]. Oh yeah [crosstalk 00:27:52].
Chris Holifield:
Because it’s 32 bucks for some baby buds.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. 3.5 grams, let’s see, if I go by sort by price, low to high, $32 for Popcorn Ice Cream Man Tryke, Tryke’s all there, 32 bucks.
Chris Holifield:
Ooh, wow, got to go get some of that.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, the potion Space Monkey Riesling, all that Tryke stuff’s 32, Dragonfly’s 35 for 3.5 grams. You want to go to the, let’s see, the standard, I haven’t even tried any of that, 53 for an eighth of that. Lava Cake and Do-Si-Dos, oh, that’s a quarter, so they do have one product that they’ll sell on a quarter, seven grams for 95. It’s [crosstalk 00:28:37].
Chris Holifield:
… going to work, Tim? Let’s say listeners, they’ve been a patient here in Utah, they’ve already been going to like Dragonfly and Wholesome and stuff. Now they want to go check out Bloc, are they going to have to go meet with a pharmacist in that Bloc?
Tim Pickett:
No, this is one of the other things we’re talking about in the medical advisory group. So you do have to register at every pharmacy you want to buy product at, you have to register as a patient. So you go online to their website and you register as a patient, but you do not have to meet with a pharmacist. You really don’t ever, but, especially if you’ve purchased product somewhere else, you just need to register as a patient. They verify your card, you just tell them, “Hey, I’ve already met with a pharmacist,” and I think the system might know, they just take you at your word and they’ll let you come in and purchase product. It’s pretty simple. They just have to make sure that you’re a patient. And I think you can go in to most pharmacies, if they’re not super busy, and they’ll register you right there, or you can get on your phone and register right then and there, and you don’t even have to do an appointment.
Chris Holifield:
Good to know, just because I know that’s one of the things that holds me up sometimes with visiting some of these pharmacies, right? You’re like, “Oh, I don’t want to schedule an appointment and do this and do that.”
Tim Pickett:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And now that things are opened up with COVID, I know that was an issue with, well, it was an issue, I think, with Beehive and Dragonfly of course, was so busy. But now, I mean, man, if you look around, there are some pharmacies that aren’t that busy. For example, right? If you want to take a drive up to Park City, just take a drive up to Park City, they’re not that busy up there. And you don’t have to register for an appointment, they always have a good selection.
Chris Holifield:
That’s right. I remember when they opened up, they had all that product sitting up there and they’re like, “come up here…” [inaudible 00:30:33]. They probably still have it sitting up there.
Tim Pickett:
Well, nobody knows about the reciprocity deal, where you can come in from out of state. We still need to get an out-of-state person who’s had a card here and tell us about the process. If you’ve got a relative out there who has a medical cannabis card, have them come to Utah, get a card, they have a 21-day card, I want to hear about that process. Because [crosstalk 00:30:58] I want to know long-
Chris Holifield:
… contact for that card? The state of Utah?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, you just go to the Department of Health’s website, the cannabis… What is it? Medicalcannabis.utah.gov. Medicalcannabis.utah.gov, you apply for an out-of-state card. If you have a card out-of-state and you’re coming to Utah, you are eligible for a Utah card for 21 days, and they just verify your card exists and they will issue your card.
Chris Holifield:
You ready to get mind blown though here for a second, Tim?
Tim Pickett:
Yes.
Chris Holifield:
Okay. So let’s say a person has a card in another state, right? And in this other state, let’s just make up a state, for example.
Tim Pickett:
Well, California.
Chris Holifield:
California, right? Let’s say they’re a medical patient in California, but the reason that they have their card is for a qualifying condition that’s in California, but not in Utah.
Tim Pickett:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Holifield:
But they’re like, “Well in California, I’m using it for my glaucoma,” or whatever, I don’t know, right? If they come to Utah and use it for their glaucoma, is it… You know what I’m saying?
Tim Pickett:
No, they’re [crosstalk 00:32:03] supposed to have-
Chris Holifield:
Where’s the consistency there? Because [crosstalk 00:32:05] get a card, because they’re going to get a card here in Utah and be able to legally use for 21 days for a qualifying condition, that isn’t a qualifying condition in Utah?
Tim Pickett:
I totally agree. The [crosstalk 00:32:18] statute says… I wrote this down, I tried to make an argument for this because I totally get it. This is where Utah residents, in my opinion, should take precedent over out-of-state residents. That’s, I mean, [crosstalk 00:32:34].
Chris Holifield:
… but out-of-state is taking precedent-
Tim Pickett:
Exactly. It’s easier for them to get the card because all they got to do is submit that they have a card, that they’re from California where they have a card system, and that they… Now-
Chris Holifield:
California [crosstalk 00:32:49] anybody.
Tim Pickett:
Exactly. So as long as you have that card you can come to Utah and use, but you’re supposed to have a qualifying condition according to the Utah statute. But that’s not part of the verification system that I know of, right? We’re not involved, QMPs are not involved in that. We don’t [crosstalk 00:33:08] get to talk to the patient. I feel like that was my argument, just let us talk to the patient, we’ll, one, we’ll make sure they know how to get the card and get them through the process, which will be helpful, number two, we’ll be able to verify their condition, because how does the state know what they have? They’re not providers, right? How do they know that they have a qualifying condition? Nope, you can just apply. But on the other hand, it’s probably very difficult to find the link at the Department of Health website, it’s very difficult to get the card, maybe it takes seven days to get your card and you’re already done mountain biking in St. George, or you’re already done skiing in [crosstalk 00:33:50] Park City, right?
Chris Holifield:
… carry it in your pocket like you’ve been doing for the last 20 years, right? Nobody’s going to know it’s in your pocket, right?
Tim Pickett:
How do people travel with it? I mean, I don’t know, I think TSA will take it out of your bag and dump it all over your clothes.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I know a lot more people are traveling with it though, and I know a lot more people are, I think, yeah, I don’t know. That’d be an interesting discussion, but it’s also kind of, I realize it’s a discussion that not everybody wants to have.
Tim Pickett:
Right? Yeah, we don’t want to talk about traveling with cannabis at all. We want to keep it. We know what to talk about and what not to talk about, right? Well, it’s going to be a fun… This is turning out to be a fun summer. It’s fricking hot, but…
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, no, it’s a fun summer. Actually, hey, did I tell you I went down to the farmer’s market? I ran into Cole down there, with Salt Baked City. So he’s down there every Saturday.
Tim Pickett:
So does he have a little booth?
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, he’s got a booth, so stop by there and say hello if you see Cole down there.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, yeah. And check out, they have a new magazine coming out, I think it’s in print right now. So when this releases it’ll be probably out and we’ve got another ad in there, Utah in the Weeds.
Chris Holifield:
Very cool. Yeah, go check that out. Yeah, he offered, he said, hey, if we ever want to record the podcast, we can join them down there at the farmer’s market. So, I don’t know, I mean, it could be fun. I’ve also tried to record podcasts down at the farmer’s market and let me tell you, it gets hot down there on Saturdays, and just having to stand outside and just… I’m like, “Man, I could be recording this podcast in air conditioning,” like right now, right? [crosstalk 00:35:31] air conditioning.
Tim Pickett:
Yep.
Chris Holifield:
Let’s get this episode wrapped up though, Tim. I think we’ve talked about some pretty cool stuff this episode, [crosstalk 00:35:38] a lot of stuff going on. Again, congratulations for your award, I mean, that’s awesome.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, thank you.
Chris Holifield:
Awesome thing [crosstalk 00:35:45].
Tim Pickett:
… set out to be good at this, and it is very, it’s nice to be noticed, and to know that we’re doing good things. Thanks to my team and to everybody that’s really involved with me in getting good information to people, that’s really what we want to do. If you want… If you don’t know if medical marijuana is right for you, if you don’t know what the qualifying conditions are, if you don’t know how to get your card, utahmarijuana.org is a good place to go, and call, text, do whatever you’ve got to do, because if it is right for you and it helps you feel better, then by damn you deserve it.
Chris Holifield:
Absolutely. Hey, and if you’re on the website, just go to utahmarijuana.org/podcast and that’s where all the podcast episodes are. You can listen to them right there, I mean, we got a lot of episodes, we’ve got, let’s see, 62 episodes up there now.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, and so [crosstalk 00:36:46] many patients…
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, so many patient stories. I mean, then you got Discovered Marijuana, you got so much content that you can absorb right there on the website.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, and it’s all just legit, it’s like this, it’s conversational. Try not to be intimidating about it, try to just talk about it like it’s just something else we talk about.
Chris Holifield:
Hey, and if you want to check out some other podcasts, go check out the other podcast I do, I am Salt Lake, I am Salt Lake Podcast. Tim was actually on episode 420, so that’s where I’d start people at, now go back to start with Tim.
Tim Pickett:
There is no podcast before 420.
Chris Holifield:
There is… Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Only the eight years before that.
Chris Holifield:
Eight years before that, yeah. So go check that podcast out. And I think that’s it for this episode, Tim.
Tim Pickett:
This was fun, Chris. We should do these more often.
Chris Holifield:
Absolutely.
Tim Pickett:
All right everybody. Stay safe out there.
Episode 62 of Utah in the Weeds deals with an issue that affects every Medical Cannabis patient and Pharmacy: payment options. As you know, almost all Medical Cannabis transactions are conducted with cash. A company known as Hypur is working to change that.
Hypur’s Tyler Beuerlein sat down with Tim and Chris to explain what his company does and how it affects the cannabis industry. [03:52] For starters, Beuerlein pointed out that Hypur is a technology platform rather than a payment service. It is a platform designed by bankers to solve the compliance issues they face in several restricted industries.
The biggest problem banks face is proving the origin of funds they accept.[09:50] If they cannot prove that deposits are the result of legitimate, legal transactions, they could be in hot water with regulators. This has led banks to stay away from high-risk industries, like cannabis, for no other reason than they don’t want the compliance hassles.
Beuerlein explained that Hypur has been working with regulators for the last seven years to come up with a framework for governing high-risk transactions.[06:18] To this point, regulators have just been “winging it”, as Beuerlein put it. That will not do for banks. They need rules and regulations on which they can depend. Hypur is working with regulators on that.
For the time being, Hypur acts as a platform for facilitating automatic clearinghouse (ACH) transactions.[13:33] Beuerlein says the company is getting ready to introduce some new products that will eventually lead to instantaneous ACH transactions. They eventually plan to include credit card transactions.
This podcast offers a lot of technical information on electronic payments and the banking industry. If you are curious about where the cannabis industry is in terms of credit and debit cards, you should find this podcast fascinating.
Chris Holifield:
Let’s get this podcast going. Let’s welcome everybody out today to episode 62 of Utah in the Weeds. My name’s Chris Holifield.
Tim Pickett:
I’m Tim Pickett, and today we basically announced we have a full house of open pharmacies in Utah.
Chris Holifield:
This is big. This is really big, Tim. This is big.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. It’s kind of like day one again. And, for that announcement, it’s the perfect time to talk about how to pay for your cannabis with Tyler Beuerlein.
Chris Holifield:
He’s from Hypur, who, if you’ve been to any of the cannabis dispensaries here in Utah, or really anywhere, you probably are familiar. You’ve seen that as an option, as a way to pay for your products. It’s an interesting topic to be able to bring to the podcast and find out the backend of it, the ins and outs, and what’s coming, even some of the stuff of what’s coming up here in the next little while here in Utah.
Tim Pickett:
Exactly. Because, right now, if you buy cannabis anywhere in the US, most people know you have to use cash still, because Visa, MasterCard, they won’t accept those transactions. But Hypur has found a way to do that, and our conversation today explains that process, why it’s like that, and what things we could look forward to, to make that a little bit easier. I know there’s been a lot of listeners and a lot of patients of mine that have talked about how cumbersome it is to have to register and have to wait for those days, for the transaction to go through. So we go through all of that today. But, like I say, it’s a good day to go through it because you can buy cannabis now legally in 14 locations in Utah.
Chris Holifield:
When do they announce that 15th location, Tim? Do we know?
Tim Pickett:
I have talked to a few people about that. There’s not a date for the request. They do an application process, which hasn’t even started. The state has not, as far as I know, put out the request for a proposal yet. So no plans, no information on when that 15th pharmacy will be announced. I mean, come on. It’s going to be in Moab.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. Well, it better be. I mean-
Tim Pickett:
Don’t you think?
Chris Holifield:
… it really needs to be. The fact that they haven’t even … We need to get this ball rolling. With how long it took them to get all the other pharmacies opened up, this is going to take forever. I mean, they’re going to need to have 18 locations and 20 by the time they get out the 15th.
Tim Pickett:
It’s totally true.
Chris Holifield:
But anything else? Let’s see. UtahMarijuana.org/podcast, you can listen to all the podcast episodes there. You can share them. Share them with your family and friends. Let’s get the word out about the podcast. There’s a lot of good information out there that a lot of people can benefit from. So let’s get the word out about the podcast. Anything else you want to mention before we get into the episode, Tim?
Tim Pickett:
The only other thing is if you want to reach out to us, use UtahMarijuana.org. Reach out to Chris or I if you know somebody with a great story that you think needs to be shared. We’ll love to have them on the podcast. Stay informed with our events because we’re going to be out there in the community at these events, as the place opens up, because apparently COVID is over.
Chris Holifield:
As the world opens up. Awesome. I’m excited, though. In Salt Lake City, their next issue’s coming out here soon, so we’ll keep everybody posted on that.
Tim Pickett:
Cool. Enjoy this conversation.
Chris Holifield:
All right, guys. Here we go.
Chris Holifield:
First of all, let’s find out where you’re based out of, Tyler. Where are you based out of right now?
Tyler Beuerlein:
Scottsdale, Arizona.
Chris Holifield:
Now is that where Hypur, the complete organization, the company’s based out of, or is that just you?
Tyler Beuerlein:
It is. We’re based out of Scottsdale. We’ve got some remote C suite execs, and we live on planes. So I say I’m based in Scottsdale and Southwest Airlines.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, wow. Why all the travel?
Tyler Beuerlein:
We have institutions that are clients all over the country that bank the industry. And then that’s parlayed into becoming a resource for many of the state governments, federal government as well. And then I’ve been fortunate to speak at a number of events now. So just every week is different. Every day is different. It just depends on what’s going on during that time.
Tim Pickett:
Tell us what Hypur is. What is Hypur?
Tyler Beuerlein:
Yeah. Hypur is very different depending on where it’s facing. What I mean by that is Hypur is a technology that was built by bankers for bankers to solve their challenges with highly regulated industries. People think that this is just a cannabis issue. It’s really not. I would argue it’s as much of a cash intensive issue as a federal illegality issue, because from a compliance standpoint, for a bank or credit union to bank this industry, it’s very cumbersome. It’s very difficult, and there’s a ton of risk.
Tyler Beuerlein:
We were built to help institutions enter and scale within these markets. That led to the payment side of Hypur. We knew we had to start with compliance because, at the end of the day, this is a banking problem, not a payment problem. If you couldn’t solve the banking side of it, the payment mechanism would never survive. We’ve seen that play out year after year, and we’re about to see it play out with another product that’s become really popular in the industry, unfortunately.
Chris Holifield:
Whose idea was it for Hypur? Was it one person’s idea? I mean, to go against banking and cannabis, that just seems like there was a lot of … I mean, that’s a lot of legal problems. That’s a big can of worms to open up. I mean, was that a tough … I’m throwing a lot of questions out there, I guess.
Tyler Beuerlein:
No, that’s great.
Chris Holifield:
I mean, how did that work out in the very beginning, man? I mean to cannabis, first of all, and then you’re up against the federal government with money and banking. How did that work?
Tyler Beuerlein:
Well, it didn’t, to be honest. I mean, it was a very heavy lift, and I was very fortunate. Our founders, one of them in particular banked high-risk industries for 20-plus years with a community bank in California. Knew this inside out, had been through the regulatory hurdles in other industries. And then we had a team of founders that were all experts in their specific area. But I can tell you that when it first launched, I mean, I was there seven years ago when probably the first bank in the country started banking this in Colorado. I mean, I was literally in the building. What people don’t realize is not only were the institutions trying to understand how to do this, but regulators were trying to understand it, too. So you had this weird dynamic where it took a very unique type of bank to take the risk.
Tyler Beuerlein:
Then the regulators came in. They didn’t understand the industry. They didn’t want banks banking it because they didn’t know how to examine an institution. I’ll never forget. One of our founders asked the examiners, the first ever examination of a bank in this space, they asked him to lunch. And he asked them the question. He said, “Look, is there an FFIEC handbook which is essentially the advisory body to regulators on how to examine institution banking space?”
Tyler Beuerlein:
The regulator said, “No.”
Tyler Beuerlein:
He said, “Well, how do you examine an institution when you have no guidance?”
Tyler Beuerlein:
The regulator literally held up his hands. He said, “We’re winging it.”
Tyler Beuerlein:
That was very problematic for a number of reasons. One, they didn’t understand the industry, so they asked for things that were not attainable, and they held institutions to a standard that could not be checked by anybody. And then, even within the same regulatory body, different regions would take a different stance on it, so you had this dichotomy where every regulator looked at it differently. Even by region they looked at it differently. And so there was no real framework. There was no real set of rules.
Tyler Beuerlein:
So, over time, over the last seven years, and I’ve been forced to spend a lot of time with regulatory bodies, all of them, they’ve all come up with, I would say, a general standard of what their expectations are. That has propelled more institutions in over the years because it’s not just this floating, unattainable thing. They can permissibly bank this industry. It’s been done for seven years now, and there’s a model, and there’s a set expectation of what’s required of those institutions.
Tim Pickett:
This comes because you basically … I think people, they don’t really understand that this, at its core, you can’t just go down to the bank with a pile of cash and deposit it, and then come back the next day with another pile of cash and deposit it, selling quote-unquote “legal cannabis” or another type of product that is what you would call high risk. But we’re in the cannabis space, so we can just use that as a good example. Even you could say like California has a legal medical market. I can legally sell it in California like we can here. You can legally sell it. You can’t just go to the bank. And you’re saying because there’s no regulation, the bank can’t really accept your money.
Tyler Beuerlein:
No, it’s not even that. Going back to the cash intensive nature, when you’re dealing in a cash intensive environment, if I’m a bank, and I accept $100,000 in cash, and my regulator comes to me and says, “Hey, prove to me that $100,000 in cash came from legitimate transactions and not a terrorist organization.” If you can’t prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that those monies came from a verifiable transaction or verifiable business, you’re in the hot seat.
Tyler Beuerlein:
What people don’t realize is not only the bank or credit union charter on the line, but the officers of the institutions have personal liability. So if I were chief compliance officer of a bank and something goes wrong, and my regulator determines that it was my fault, I can have a civil money penalty imposed on me personally that can’t be covered by the insurance policy of the institution. So it’s not just liability on the institution side. Everybody involved has liability at this point.
Tyler Beuerlein:
One other thing I’ll touch on. In California, I was involved in that state at, I would say, the government level, from an advisory standpoint, for a long time. One thing we tried to preach to them over time was, look, the reason institutions aren’t banking your market and the reason you have a cash crisis is because you haven’t come up with a finite regulatory framework for your program. So California, 20 years ago, passed this, I’m going to say, great medical market. None of the municipalities followed. And so, as a bank or credit union or from a regulator’s standpoint, how do I bank in industry if I can’t even determine whether or not an operator’s complying with state or local law? And so, when they implemented their regulatory framework January 1, 2018, we saw a whole slew of institutions come in to bank it. I would argue no matter where you’re at in the country at this point, if you can’t or you’re not banked and you’re in the cannabis industry, you either just don’t want to pay any fees, or you’re doing something nefarious. This industry’s banked regardless of what’s published in the media.
Tim Pickett:
Interesting. In Utah, the institution that’s decided to step up in Utah was Utah First Credit Union, right? Why credit union, not a city bank or a-
Tyler Beuerlein:
It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter what type of institution it is. It doesn’t matter if they’re nationally chartered. It doesn’t matter if they’re state chartered. Every one of those regulatory bodies has experience with the state legal cannabis space. Now I will say this. The NCUA has been, I would say, the pinnacle as far as trying to help institutions behind the scenes, trying to be open-minded about it with the thought that, look, our communities are much safer with this cash off the streets than it being out there. I would say that they’ve done some things progressively that other regulators just haven’t. So if I’m a credit union, I take comfort in that, whereas many banks don’t necessarily have that comfort level.
Tim Pickett:
Interesting.
Chris Holifield:
I got a couple of questions here. I want to make sure that we ask them. I asked online here, Tyler, if any of our listeners had any questions, that we’d be chatting with you. And one of our listeners, actually Zac King, he was on the podcast before, so he’s a former guest, his first question is, he says, “One question I have is what is it that takes the process longer than the day or two when some other transactions are instantaneous?”
Tyler Beuerlein:
It’s an ACH, so it depends on when a transaction is run through a financial institution. Hypur doesn’t, I’m going to say, touch money, right? So our banks that openly bank the state legal cannabis industry move the funds from the consumer’s account into the merchant’s. That is subject to the Fed processing time for ACH. So if a transaction’s run on a Saturday and it’s after 5:00, it’s not going to hit until the following Monday. And then there are situations where a transaction is pulled from a consumer’s account. Maybe they went through monies after the time that we validated the funds were available in their account, so there’s an overdraft. And so we represent to collect those funds on the 1st and the 15th. So those things are not ideal. But I can tell you that we are about to launch a product that’s much more mainstream and will really help mitigate some of those issues.
Chris Holifield:
Can you talk about this product, or is it top secret, kind of?
Tyler Beuerlein:
Not too much. I can tell you that it’s been approved at the state level, and it’s going to be, again, much more mainstream, and it will not have any of those delays in transaction processing.
Tim Pickett:
Because when you go to Nevada, it’s my understanding that it’s essentially like an ATM system at the terminal.
Tyler Beuerlein:
They’re about to go down nationwide. The cashless ATMs, they’ve become really popular in the state legal cannabis industry. They’re not permissible. They’re not sustainable. I don’t want to say too much, but I would expect those products to be gone within the next 60 days.
Tim Pickett:
All together, right? I mean, I was literally there-
Tyler Beuerlein:
All together.
Tim Pickett:
… three or four weeks ago. You put your card in, and essentially like a cashless ATM. I’m thinking, oh, well, they’re getting around-
Tyler Beuerlein:
Correct.
Tim Pickett:
… the merchant piece and this sort of thing. Wow. So what you’re saying is there are products-
Tyler Beuerlein:
Let’s talk about that for a second. What I’m saying is the cashless ATM model in its own right is fraudulent because you’re representing to an acquiring bank that this is an on premise physical ATM that’s not being used at the point of purchase for a federally illegal product. Above and beyond that, there are some network issues. There are some documentation issues. I’ll just say that it’s not above board, regardless of what’s being presented to the merchants, and there are some things that work that are going to be here very soon.
Chris Holifield:
Well, that leads me to a question that Zac had. He had one more question here. He wants to know if the MORE Act gets signed, in what way will that affect Hypur, if any? If it will affect it in any way.
Tyler Beuerlein:
Yeah. We’ve gotten a lot questions about MORE, and we’ve gotten a lot of questions about SAFE. I’ve actually spent a lot of time with some lobbyists and politicians on these things. It doesn’t have much of an effect, unfortunately. So if you’re talking about the SAFE Act or MORE, again, the industry’s already banked. Regulators and institutions have worked together in the last seven years to really, I’m going to say, solve this problem. But, more importantly, people want credit cards, understandably so. It’s convenient. They know it. People want that ease of transaction. The branded card networks have been very specific about federal legality. They’re not going to enter the market until the product is federally legal, and there are a number of reasons behind that. It’s interesting.
Tyler Beuerlein:
I’ve been forced to be on the board of MJBiz, and they did a poll. When the SAFE Act got passed in the House, and they said, “What are you most excited about?” Probably 80% of the people that reacted said, “We’re so excited to run credit cards.” Well, that’s not in the realm of possibility until federal legality. Those two acts don’t change the federal legal status of product, and so, unfortunately, I don’t see that having much of an impact from a payment banking standpoint. Even when this goes federally legal, yes, credit cards will be there. But this will still be a highly regulated cash intensive industry, and your banking options are going to remain limited.
Tim Pickett:
See, I think that it’s important for us to talk about this because it’s important to keep these expectations in the scope of reality. There’s just so much misinformation, and it’s not intentional. It’s just that we all just kind of make it up, I guess. We’re all making up what we want and what we want to see.
Tyler Beuerlein:
Well, you have expectations of how things should work in a mainstream industry. People get frustrated, and they say, “Well, why can’t I do this?” We have to tell them, “Look. I mean, again, this is still a federally illegal industry.” Even though states have approved it and even though it’s spreading like wildfire, you’ve got to contend with that. But then people don’t understand the cash intensive business issues. I mean, I’ve probably sent over a thousand merchants to a bank or credit union that will bank them over the years. But I get calls from the gun and ammo industry, payday lenders, check cashing companies, all of these companies that have banking issues just like cannabis. The topic’s not as polarizing, so people don’t really talk about it, right? So it’s just one of those things. And, to your point, it’s grossly misinformed. Combine that with all of the bad actors that see dollar signs come sprinting towards the cannabis market and misinform merchants intentionally because they want to make money. And so you got this dichotomy that just it’s not ideal.
Tim Pickett:
To change this a little bit, if you go to a discussion about crypto and blockchain, you’ve got a growing … this same kind of hype, and you bypass the banking industry a little bit. You keep your money offline. I mean, do you see a place for that to come up?
Tyler Beuerlein:
No. No, I’ll tell you a story. I was with the … I won’t say who. But I was with a very large regulatory body, and it was somebody very high up in that regulatory body, in a full room of examiners. They wanted to know what was happening on the ground floor in certain states within the region, and the question was posed by this person: “What do you think of cryptocurrency being involved in payments in this space?”
Tyler Beuerlein:
I said, “Honestly, I don’t think it has any place. You’re trying to combine one highly regulated industry that banks and credit unions already have a nightmare trying to handle with another.” I said, “From a compliance standpoint, it scares the heck out of me. There are taxation issues that are awful.”
Tyler Beuerlein:
Before I could even finish what I was saying, this person slammed their fist on the table and said, “You’re damn effing right! If we find out our institutions are banking payment companies that participate in both crypto and cannabis, they’re either going to have to shut down those accounts or fold their program entirely.” So, one, I don’t know what benefit it really provides at the end of the day. Two, I think it’s a long way off. Plus, you also got same day ACH coming. It’s already being implemented. A lot of the argument about instant transfers or things being cheaper, I think you’re going to see go by the wayside. So, yeah, it’s an interesting topic. People naturally relate the two. But there’s really no place for it.
Tim Pickett:
Sure. Because if you don’t have the name merchant like the Visa, the MasterCard, the American Express, you’re essentially … What I’ve heard was you basically bypass that, right? And you just pay with some other type of currency than cash. But, like you say, eventually you have to put your money somewhere. Just like with cash, you cannot have a business that’s that big-
Tyler Beuerlein:
Correct. The other part of it is, too, and I try and explain this to people, your most valuable asset in this industry is your licensure. So if you’re doing something nefarious or you’re trying to get around the system or skirt rules and regulations, you’re only hurting yourself. I mean, your goal in this industry, I mean, essentially, you’re in the compliance business now. Everything you do should be in that vein, and everything that your bank or credit union is asking you for is because they’re trying to do things right to sustainably bank the market and help you. I know it can be cumbersome. I know it can be difficult. I get calls from merchants all the time saying, “Why is my bank or credit union asking for this?” And my response to them is, “Because they’re doing it right, and you should be thankful for that.”
Chris Holifield:
Where do you see things going with Hypur? Where do you see this in five years? Or is it hard to see where things will be in five years?
Tyler Beuerlein:
This industry’s so nascent. We jokingly refer to it … I tell people I’m seven years in the industry, but they’re really dog years, so I’m approaching 50 in cannabis. There’s so much that happens. I don’t think that federal legality is coming any time soon, unfortunately. I know that goes against what many people say. I’ve just been around too many politicians that they’re going to tell you what you want to hear. At the end of the day, getting something to move that’s that major, I don’t see happening any time soon. Even if it does, it’s going to remain a highly regulated industry.
Tyler Beuerlein:
And so, for us, I think we understand the branded card networks will come eventually, and I think for us it’s getting ourselves in a position where we can provide that service … I don’t mean to oversimplify it, but at the flip of a switch, for our ecosystem, at a rate that’s comparable to what mainstream industry operates in, and really just help the industry be transparent and thrive. We’re a battleship, so we move quick. We adjust quickly because we know that we have to, and we expect change quickly. So I don’t know if I can answer that succinctly. But that’s how we think about this world. We’re also going to be going into other industries shortly as well.
Chris Holifield:
Do you care to share anything more on that, other industries as far as what kind of industries?
Tyler Beuerlein:
Yeah. I think, again, we’re seeing the pain points in other highly regulated industries, and people are coming to us naturally saying, “Hey, you’ve been able to quote-unquote ‘conquer’ that, and that’s kind of the pinnacle of, I would say, compliance issues. So can you help us with this?” Whether it be … And I’m just throwing some things out there that are high risk. Again, all your money service businesses, that’s how they’re referred to, check cashers, payday lenders, cross-border admittance, potentially online gaming, things that have present major issues to institutions trying to bank them, I think all of those things are in play for us.
Tim Pickett:
Do you find that Hypur does some things really well, and some things, you’re just not built for?
Tyler Beuerlein:
Yeah. I think you can’t be everything to everyone. Because we deal with so many different aspects of the industry, it’s been a challenge for us. We’ve tried to make adjustments quickly. We’re always trying to grow, and much of what we’ve become is as a result of regulators asking questions of institutions that they couldn’t answer, or us, can we provide this level of data on these certain things? So, yeah, I think to say that we’ve operated in a flawless manner is just not accurate. We’re trying to grow, we’re always trying to improve, and we’re trying to do that based off market feedback. So the answer is no, but those things have also helped us get better.
Tim Pickett:
Do you find that now you’ve seen opportunities for, like, boy, Hypur is getting pretty good at helping people with the banking side of things, helping people with that transaction from the consumer, to making those transactions happen seamlessly. But we’ve noticed that, man, there’s a gap here. We would love some help, if somebody would just come in and do this other thing. I guess I’m asking an open-ended question here. But you’re just at the forefront of something that, really, we don’t know anybody else who’s there.
Tyler Beuerlein:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Right? You don’t just go in, right? If I need my medicine delivered, I have to go through Hypur in Utah. That’s how this works, because the statute won’t allow cash.
Tyler Beuerlein:
Well, that’s also a testament to the state governments having an extensive background in banking, and not wanting to see the industry go through the same hardship that’s happened in every other market. I know that’s a little bit of a challenge for the industry, but at the end of the day, it’s the best thing they could’ve done. Again, going back to the compliance side of this, they really understood the challenges and wanted to mitigate that exposure and that hardship.
Tyler Beuerlein:
So I guess I would answer your question like this. I think that, again, the cannabis industry is so nascent. Every market’s its own planet. You can’t compare Utah to Oklahoma. You can’t compare Arizona to New York. They’re all so different. We’ve really tried to integrate with the right partners that have solved problems in those areas to make the process for the consumer more seamless. And I think that, to that question, the product that we’re about to launch I think addresses a lot of those things and has been developed based on consumer demand, merchant need, and providing the industry with something that’s much more mainstream.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I think the patients here, the customer here, there’s been some talk that 30% to 50% of the transactions have hiccups because of the onboarding process. It’s not necessarily Hypur. It’s the onboarding process to make sure that your bank is connected to the system so that they can withdraw funds and transfer funds. And that has been quite cumbersome. But just like with the EVS, the electronic verification system in Utah, that system is also extremely cumbersome. It just seems like at every turn … In fact, a lot of patients will tell you this. “It seems like Utah doesn’t want me to smoke weed at every turn. They’re just making it hard at every turn.”
Tyler Beuerlein:
Yeah. From our standpoint, I mean, I’ll be very candid with you. One of the things that happened, probably nine months ago, is when Plaid was about to get acquired by Visa, they went out to any operator that was using Plaid for verification, that had any tie to cannabis, and said, “You’re gone. You’re off the platform.” That’s a big part of Hypur pay. We’ve got to verify those funds. Again, you’re getting into compliance, and so we’ve had to shift to another provider. That’s been challenging.
Tyler Beuerlein:
And then there’s some smaller institutions in Utah that maybe aren’t up to speed from a technology standpoint, which also complicates this thing. Those are things that our team is very aware of. We’re working through them on a daily basis and trying to mitigate those issues. But, again, the new product that’s coming out, I think you’re going to find that really addresses a lot of those pain points, and I think that it will be very, very beneficial to not only the merchants, but the consumers, first and foremost, in the Utah market. I’m sorry to be vague, guys. Just we’re probably two weeks out, and so I’ll be able to share more at that time.
Chris Holifield:
Now, with your background, Tyler, I mean, we didn’t even go there, really. Have you always been involved in cannabis, or is it more financial that your background is, or?
Tyler Beuerlein:
Yeah. I grew up in Arizona. I went to school in northern California. I was a baseball player. So I did that for a number of years. On the East Coast, I was in the Mets organization for a long time. And then, when I got out, I word for a private equity real estate firm in Arizona, cut my teeth on the investment side, and then I started a sports drink company with the founders of Four Loko, ironically.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Tyler Beuerlein:
Remember that-
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, that’s a good beverage.
Tyler Beuerlein:
… back in the day?
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Tyler Beuerlein:
Yeah. One of the founders is a close friend of mine. And so really dove into that, the beverage world, CPG, dealing with retailers, dealing with distributors. After about six years of that, I transitioned right into Hypur day one. So I’ve been on the front lines of this industry in a very unique way. Really, I’ve been very lucky to see it from the front of the front lines. We see everything from the financial institutions out, but that gives us transparency into who’s doing what, what markets are doing what. What are regulators looking for? What are state governments looking for? What’s the federal government trying to do? So it’s been a rocket ride, and I’m very thankful just to be in it. It’s been amazing.
Tim Pickett:
Do you feel like you have a better or … I mean, certainly, you have a different insight. But, to me, it seems like you might have a better insight as to what’s happening nationally because of … Well, how many states is Hypur in?
Tyler Beuerlein:
We’re in every state with a market. But even then, at this point, typically, if a state’s considering it, we’re typically involved, or I’m typically involved, at least, just to be a sounding board or be a resource.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, like I said, I was thinking that you’re probably in a position to where you can see the shifting in a different way than everybody else, because you have visibility essentially into every marketplace and what the nation is doing, even more so than huge cannabis companies like Curaleaf or huge retail operators like MedMen. They can only see as far as they reach.
Tyler Beuerlein:
Yeah. I’ve helped a lot of those companies as well, just with maybe certain points of information that are general in certain markets. But, yeah, again, going back to being fortunate, I mean, not only that, we’ve been able to see most transactions from a consolidation standpoint because when there’s a change in beneficial ownership, typically, we know about it first. So it’s been really fascinating to watch not only the consolidation, but also the public markets have been very interesting.
Tyler Beuerlein:
You saw this big influx of money into the Canadian companies, because the Canadian companies were going to operate in the first legal market. Then they were going to come down and acquire everything in the US. I think, actually, I posted about this on LinkedIn the other day. I actually think it’s going to happen in reverse. I think the Canadian companies, they’re losing money at an unsustainable rate. They have no exit. The notion that exports is going to be a viable business model is, I think, a fallacy.
Tyler Beuerlein:
I think that the Canadian market as a whole, I think the tax revenue’s generated by the state of California alone are greater than the entire Canadian cannabis market today. I think that’s a huge problem for them, right? And then the massive influx of money into those companies, with the notion that they’re going to come down and acquire the USMSOs upon federal legalization, that may not happen any time soon. They’re bleeding money like crazy.
Tyler Beuerlein:
The USMSOs continue to gobble up assets, and the revenues are going through the roof, and the point that so few talk about is if federal legalization falls, all of the USMSOs uplist to the US markets, and the whole advantage for the Canadian companies is gone. So it’s really interesting to see the public sentiment about different companies as opposed to what’s really happening on the ground floor.
Tyler Beuerlein:
And then, state by state, investors, they always want to know what’s happening. There are certain states that I wouldn’t touch with a 10-foot pole, from an investment standpoint. Oklahoma comes to mind as number one. I think they’ve issued a retail license for every 80 patients in the state, which is a giant sprint to the bottom. And then you’ve got markets like, candidly, Utah, from an investment standpoint, I don’t know that there’s a better market in the country. You’ve got a very limited regime. You’ve only got 14 retail licenses, about to be 15, as you know. You’ve only got eight cultivators. Chronic pain’s an approved condition. These guys are doing revenues that are healthy, even for a rec market already. So very bullish about Utah specifically for those reasons.
Tim Pickett:
That’s really interesting because there’s a lot of different opinions here. One of the things I was thinking of when you were talking about Canada and exporting cannabis to the United States, I had talked about this to somebody else. Chris, we’ve talked about it, too. There is an army, a legit army, of cannabis growers in the US. Disparate systems, but there are so many people and so much infrastructure being built, all separated, all not together. There’s no scale, per se, but all you’ve got to do is inject a little bit of money, and there will be instant scale. And in 37-40 states. All grow. They’re all grow.
Tyler Beuerlein:
Yeah. I think we’ll see the operators that have dominated the California cannabis industry … You’ve got premium flower being grown there, outdoor, and it costs … I’m sorry. I don’t see anybody in Canada even getting remotely close to competing with. And they’re only going to expand scale, right?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Tyler Beuerlein:
You’re seeing it in other markets already. It’s going to become commoditized. And then the other part of it is even if the federal legal status changes, I don’t see interstate commerce occurring any time soon, either. That’s a whole other issue that’s got to be addressed. It wouldn’t surprise me if, in the next two years, you saw the USMSOs acquire the Canadian assets at pennies on the dollar, and the whole dynamic in reverse, because what they’re doing right now is not sustainable, and the US market just continues to thrive.
Tim Pickett:
Hmm. Wow. In the meantime, instant ACH kind of solves a lot of the problems for the consumer, really. And-
Tyler Beuerlein:
And our new product will, too.
Tim Pickett:
And your new product will, too. And so that’s just going to get easier for essentially people in every state. Now, if I’m registered at Hypur, can I purchase cannabis in other states using that same system? Or are they separate?
Tyler Beuerlein:
You can. Yeah. No, you can, if any state you’re in. Like if you’re in California, you could go to Caliva and purchase with Hypur. So it doesn’t matter what state you’re in. If it’s a legal transaction, you can consummate it at those retailers.
Tim Pickett:
Just give people another incentive to walk through the process, even if they think it’s just one extra step. Right?
Tyler Beuerlein:
Sure. I know it’s not ideal. Look, I mean, we’re always trying to improve it, but if we could mitigate those things and make it just a mainstream credit card transaction, we would. But, unfortunately, we can’t today. So we’re doing the best we can, and we’re trying to get it. We’re always trying to improve.
Chris Holifield:
I think it’s a great alternative. I think it’s a great choice. I think it’s great to have that as an option for people to purchase.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I do, too. From the provider’s standpoint, I mean, we are only looking for expansion of the information, destigmatizing cannabis as a tool in the medicine toolbox, right? If I can get somebody off of opioids, and they’re in Moab, and they need delivery, or they’re in some rural area, or they can’t get out of bed … Frankly, we have tons of patients who just can’t get to the dispensary or the pharmacy. So they need that home delivery.
Tim Pickett:
I agree, cash is not a good idea for home delivery because you end up with drivers who have $40,000 driving around every day, and that’s not safe. In fact, I just had a DEA prosecutor over at my house this last week that was talking about how much they hate cannabis because they hate guns, and the black market includes guns. People get shot because they have too much cash on them.
Tyler Beuerlein:
Going back to highly regulated industries. Yeah. It’s a challenge. I think, also, in going into delivery, I think one thing we’ve found in some large sophisticated operators were already getting this before COVID. COVID just sped it up. But I think that as markets expand, these retailers are realizing that the biggest addressable market now is the fringe consumer that maybe doesn’t know they love edibles yet, but they’re going to. But those people expect an Amazon-like experience. They expect convenience. They expect it to be mainstream, and they’re not going to stand for a non-mainstream mechanism.
Tyler Beuerlein:
And so, again, going back to what we’re about to do, it’s much more in that vein. And, again, same concept. I mean, yes, we’re in this for profit, but we also want to provide a compliance sustainable means of transaction to an industry that’s the cat’s out of the bag. It’s here. It’s thriving. And, to your point, if we can get people off of opioids and all of these other awful pharma products that have just ruined lives over and over, we can’t do it fast enough.
Chris Holifield:
I agree 100%. Anything else you want to ask him, Tim, while we have him? I mean, I don’t want to hold him up here all day. I’m sure Tyler’s got other things he wants to go do. Anything else you want to talk about, Tyler, while we got you here, or?
Tyler Beuerlein:
I don’t think so.
Chris Holifield:
I feel like we kind of skimmed the surface with a lot of things and gave the overall-
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I think that-
Chris Holifield:
… idea.
Tim Pickett:
… this is an important conversation, like I’ve said, and I’m excited to have you on. I think it explains a lot to people who are willing to listen to this interview and to dig in a little bit about the process of payments, why it’s this way, and what you’re working on to try to help. For the most part, the bankers … Yeah. People, they need a place to put … The retailers need a place to put their money. They need to be able to be legal, so they don’t get shut down. And, on our side, we deal with so many consumers who just need access, need better access. Yeah. Thanks for coming on. It’s been really exciting.
Tyler Beuerlein:
One other thing I’d just throw out there, just as a resource, if people want to contact us or me, they can find that at LinkedIn, or they can get ahold of me. My phone number is out there, I think, at this point. So if anybody has any questions or needs a referral to a bank or credit union that will bank them, one thing we’ve done since the beginning is any time somebody calls us, it doesn’t matter where they’re at, it doesn’t matter what their situation is, hemp, CBD, cannabis, any of those other highly regulated industries, we will always refer them directly to an institution that will bank them. And we’ve never asked for anything in return. We just want to help. We want to be that resource. So if anybody needs it, please have them reach out.
Chris Holifield:
And then I guess just people could check out the Hypur app. Go download it at any app player or app store on their phone’s app, iPhone, Android, whatnot.
Tim Pickett:
You’re going to need it in Utah if you want home delivery, or you don’t want to go to the ATM at the pharmacy, or use cash. I mean, that is the option.
Tyler Beuerlein:
And there’s no cost to the consumer.
Chris Holifield:
Well, we’ll wrap this episode. Thank you so much, Tyler. Really quickly, while we’re recording here, we want to mention that you can download all the episodes of the podcast. You can listen to those at UtahMarijuana.org/podcast. Anything else you want to add? Anything else you want to say and tell the listeners, Tim, before we wrap this episode up?
Tim Pickett:
No, I don’t think so. Thanks, guys, for listening. Stay safe out there.
Episode 61 of Utah in the Weeds introduces the audience to the concept of making their own edibles and tinctures at home. Co-host Chris Holifield’s wife, Krissie, was the guest for this episode. Both Tim and Chris were excited to have her on and hear her story.
Krissie’s first experience with cannabis was similar to so many others. [03:28] She tried it in her late teens but had a bad experience. After talking it through with Tim, the two concluded that her difficulty could have been a combination of the drug and her LDS upbringing.
Years later, Krissie started drinking to help with PTSD, anxiety, and a host of other issues that were making life miserable.[05:25] Though drinking helped, she says it left her in a daze. Then she was introduced to cannabis by husband, Chris. She made good use of COVID restrictions to safely make the switch from alcohol to cannabis while working from home.[16:05]
These days, Krissie is making her own tinctures and edibles using a trial-and-error strategy.[26:45] She has reactions that seem unique to her situation, so she has to try lots of different recipes to find things that work for her. She is persistent, if nothing else.
Most of her ideas come from the internet. She does a lot of searching; she watches a lot of YouTube videos.[39:06] YouTube is where she learned how to use a pressure cooker to make edibles.
Perhaps the most refreshing aspect of this particular episode is Krissie Holifield’s perspective.[51:21] She came to cannabis wondering what all the fuss was about. To her, it is medicine. It works for her and so she’ll keep using it. She also plans to keep experimenting with new tinctures and edibles. You might want to catch this episode if you identify with her.
Chris Holifield:
All right. Let’s welcome everybody out today to episode 61 of Utah in the Weeds. My name is Chris Holifield.
Tim Pickett:
And I’m Tim Pickett.
Chris Holifield:
Today, we have a very special guest. I’m going to jump in here and introduce this one, Tim, just because she holds a special place in my heart. She’s my wife. I’m excited. Because she gets to share her story and integrate a little bit of my life into that too. So listeners can even find out a little bit more about my cannabis regimen by listening to her.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. And this was a good conversation to have, Chris. She has a great story. It resonated with me. And I think it’s going to resonate with a lot of our listeners, because it’s just a real story. And I like to get to know people who are willing to share some of the things that are hard for them. And this was good. Plus, we talk about edibles.
Chris Holifield:
Edibles, tinctures.
Tim Pickett:
Making your own, and go through all of this stuff. So if you’re interested in making your own tinctures, making your own edibles from the flower that’s here in Utah, this is a great one.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. So listen, maybe you’ll learn something new. Maybe you will discover some new ways you can consume cannabis. And then reach out to Krissie, let her know you heard her on the podcast. Say, “Hey, you know what? I enjoyed you on Utah in the Weeds.” You know what we didn’t talk about? And actually I want to give her some credit now. Krissie is the one behind the whole logo, Utah in the Weeds logo.
Tim Pickett:
That’s right. If you have any merch that is Utah in the Weeds, Krissie. You owe thanks to Krissie. She’s awesome.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. I meant to bring that up with when we were chatting with her, I completely spaced it. There were so much more I wanted to talk with her.
Tim Pickett:
She’s incredibly creative when it comes to that sort of stuff. There’s no doubt.
Chris Holifield:
Any housekeeping you want to talk about? You’re open in Provo.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, we’re open in Provo. I mean, we are going to make… Listen for the announcements on clinic openings south of Provo, they’re coming. I’ll have more information in the next couple of weeks, I think, on those. Now, the pharmacies that are opening up, we have no idea when Justice is going to open yet. We’ve heard maybe mid-June on that, and Bloom, in Cedar City. Still don’t have a hard line on that. They were supposed to be open already. But we’ll update you as soon as we can. Be sure to go to utahmarijuana.org/podcast, where all of our podcast episodes are. They’re uploaded every week.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. And if you’re a listener and you’re interested in coming on the podcast, I say this on every episode, reach out to Tim or myself. Let us know, because we’d love to bring you on.
Tim Pickett:
Absolutely.
Chris Holifield:
We’d love to have you share your story. Even if you don’t think you have a story, you’d be surprised because you probably have a pretty cool story. So let’s get into that conversation with Krissie though.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, absolutely.
Chris Holifield:
This is a good one you guys. Enjoy it, and thanks for listening to the podcast.
Chris Holifield:
I know you’re my wife. I hear stories.
Krissie:
What? When did that happen?
Tim Pickett:
I hear stories about that too.
Chris Holifield:
We have obviously consumed together, and I’d love to even maybe share some of those stories on the podcast.
Krissie:
I like to call it the peace pipe.
Chris Holifield:
The peace pipe?
Krissie:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tim Pickett:
That’s cool.
Chris Holifield:
But I’d like to even go back with you, Krissie, to the beginning times of you using cannabis, how it was for you, the experience, your thoughts? Just go back to that time.
Krissie:
Well, once upon a time, a long time ago, I visited a college roommate when I was about 18 up in Washington. And I was a very good LDS girl, grew up, did everything I was supposed to do. And I let loose this one time with a friend, and she’s like, “Hey, try this.” And it did not go well. I was very paranoid. I had to walk out to the car and unlock the car to get something. And the whole time I was like, “Oh my gosh! I’m going to get arrested. Everyone’s going to…” I was just freaking out. So I’ve avoided it since then. And what am I? It’s almost 20 years later now?
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Okay. Question on that.
Krissie:
And I’ve just rediscovered it this year.
Tim Pickett:
This year?
Krissie:
Or last year, maybe. Over this horrible time.
Tim Pickett:
Do you think that paranoia comes both from the cannabis, like the THC experience? Plus growing up the way you grew up, being out of town, being at a friend’s house, all of us… You’ve done all of the “wrong things” all of a sudden.
Krissie:
That’s true. I did not have a good, like, spiritual guide, did I?
Tim Pickett:
Nobody gave you permission. It’s not like mom said, “Hey, you know what? I know you’re going out of town. It’s going to be okay. You can smoke a little weed and experiment.” Had you had that? Maybe it would have been a little different?
Krissie:
Yeah, I think you’re very spot on there. And I never would’ve thought about it. I just blamed the weed.
Tim Pickett:
I just wonder this story that you tell is very common. The first time I tried it, I hated it. I was so paranoid. I used it in college.
Krissie:
You don’t know what to expect.
Tim Pickett:
The unknowing, I don’t have permission, I’m doing something bad. All of that’s got to compound, besides the fact that THC makes you paranoid if you use it out of context.
Krissie:
It can increase your adrenaline and excitement levels, but excitement, stress, anxiety, it’s all related. It’s like sides of the coin.
Tim Pickett:
Did you use cannabis a lot during that time, or it was one and done?
Krissie:
Just that one night. However, watching TV was exciting when I was safe inside. I avoided it because I just thought it was bad for me forever. And then I had a lot of things that I went through and developed PTSD, and I had to get really heavily medicated. I was committed for a minute. And it was a really dark time. And I went through years and years of lots of anxiety meds, having to take sleeping meds to be able to sleep, and then also take blood pressure meds so that I wouldn’t dream when I was sleeping, because I had such bad night terrors. It was just like controlling my life. And the only way I could figure out how to get around it was to start drinking. So I would just drink.
Chris Holifield:
You drink a lot.
Krissie:
A lot.
Chris Holifield:
Heavy drinker.
Krissie:
I mean, I have a steel stomach, man. It’s runs in my blood. That’s not good. But it was the only thing that just really numbed it and made me tired enough that I could actually sleep, and I leaned way too heavily into it because the meds weren’t really helping that much. Anyway, I’m a hot mess. And then-
Tim Pickett:
Did the drinking help?
Krissie:
… this is interesting, because it did help in one way. It helped in the sense that it allowed me to release a lot of the heavy anxieties and be a little more present, enjoy what I was doing as opposed to worrying about everything else a little bit. But at the end of the day, you don’t remember it as much when you wake up. This is going to sound weird, but it helps you numb everything so you can just keep going, but it’s a haze.
Tim Pickett:
It’s like a —
Krissie:
You’re like, I know I’m doing stuff, but I don’t know how everything is right now really. It seems okay. And then when I rediscovered cannabis, thanks to you and my fabulous husband, I’ve been learning about-
Chris Holifield:
Which I would like to get into that too, about how you [crosstalk 00:07:25]. Put a pin there.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Because I think there’s a point at which maybe the whole time you were drinking you knew.
Krissie:
… yeah, I knew. I was like, I just don’t know what else to do.
Tim Pickett:
So you knew you were using it as a medication, and you knew, “You know what, one day I’m going to have to deal with this.”
Krissie:
Yeah. The whole time in the back of my head.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, my God! But it’s today.
Krissie:
I’m like, “But you know what, right now I cannot survive today if I don’t numb somethings.”
Chris Holifield:
You were just looking to get through the day.
Krissie:
My flight or freeze response has probably been a 12 for the last, I don’t know, 10 years.
Chris Holifield:
Out of what, 1,000?
Krissie:
One to 10. It’s a 12. But really, my flight response is really bad. I still, poor Chris, have a hard time knowing when to react appropriately in situations. But then learning about cannabis and the different cannabinoids and the different… What’s the word?
Chris Holifield:
Strengths or terpenes?
Tim Pickett:
The terpenes.
Krissie:
Terpenes’. I always want to say tannins, terpenes. It’s been really amazing because I found some terpenes that are really helpful, and strains that are really helpful. That actually calm my mind. What it does as opposed to drinking, which just numbs everything, is it calms my mind and I can see what’s going on. I can understand what’s happening. But it doesn’t worry me as much because I feel like I can actually calm down and think through it logically, and then talk myself out of being anxious.
Chris Holifield:
But I want to visit that for second, because this goes off to a side thing of drinking helps you sleep compared to cannabis though. So that’s…
Krissie:
I’m very weird. I have weird reactions to cannabis, I think. I can’t sleep. Everyone else takes it to sleep, and I think that’s fabulous, because I would love to sleep. But my mind, I think it’s because of my ADHD. When I consume cannabis I get very mentally stimulated and I just can’t stop my brain, I can’t stop thinking, I get very motivated. And so sometimes-
Tim Pickett:
You’ve tried all kinds of strains too.
Krissie:
… I have.
Tim Pickett:
Chris and I have talked a little bit about it.
Krissie:
About my strains?
Chris Holifield:
Because of your situation, because I want to understand it. Because me… Dude, I take a few puffs, I’m out.
Krissie:
It works for you. And I cannot figure out why it doesn’t work for me, but I decided I’m just going to take advantage of it and use it when I need it. And nighttime is not that time, I guess. Figure something out there.
Tim Pickett:
It just goes to show you that everybody has a different experience with it. And maybe one day you’ll find something. I mean, Monday you’ll be like, “Hey, this new thing or this thing I made, this edible I made,” which I’m really excited to talk about by the way. Boom, you’re out. Found the ticket.
Krissie:
Okay. And I have been doing… I’m really crazy. And I’ve been really excited about learning how to moderate everything and track it. I started journals. If I infuse this much oil and I take three pills in the morning, three pills in the afternoon, how many milligrams is that? I had all of the math broken down, and I was tracking it for awhile. I was actually doing really good. And then I ran out of cannabis, and I got lazy. And I have to just go make oil again. That’s so bad. But I’ve found for me that ingesting it works best for me. For some reason smoking it seems to trigger my asthma and my allergies. And so I get really bad… I feel like I’ve really bad allergies and wheezy. And so I have to find my method. And I think there might still be another one out there, maybe. I don’t know.
Chris Holifield:
Because I’ll invite you in to use the volcano with me or something, and you just can’t do it with your throat.
Krissie:
I can’t. It’s so lame.
Chris Holifield:
It bothers…
Krissie:
All right. I’m going to tell you something else. Even if you can do it, when you are an almost 40 year old lady who has had four kids and you’re going to smoke, you’re going to cough a lot. And you know what happens when you cough a lot, you pee your pants. And I’m just being honest, and all of you ladies know it. I’m just like, “It’s not even worth it. I don’t want to change my pants.”
Tim Pickett:
I hear this, the coughing, the laughing, the jogging.
Krissie:
Do you hear, “Oh, man,” all the time?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Krissie:
I’ll sneeze and then yell oh, man.
Tim Pickett:
Sorry, I can’t jump rope today.
Krissie:
It’s worth it though. It’s worth it. Kids are cute. We love them.
Chris Holifield:
So talk to me about… I remember when you and I first started even dating, you were very intimidated by cannabis. You wrote Gary…
Tim Pickett:
How long have you guys been married?
Chris Holifield:
Four years. We actually just celebrated our four year… We went to Denver for our wedding anniversary.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, we talked a little bit about that, how the prices are the same.
Krissie:
It was disappointing.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, I was very surprised. I was like, “What does everybody complain about in Utah? We have a better in Utah.” We can get into that, but…
Krissie:
Yeah, I have thoughts on that too.
Chris Holifield:
But I remember when you and I first started dating and got married. Because you’ve always been more of an alcohol person and I’ve always been more of a marijuana person, just because of the way it agrees with me verses you.
Krissie:
Well, and it’s interesting, because we’ve discussed our differences there and why it works better for us. Really interesting.
Tim Pickett:
I would imagine with your GI stuff, the alcohol just tears you up. I mean, it could.
Chris Holifield:
It tears me up, and histamines and all of that.
Tim Pickett:
And that I never really experienced. So I’m like, “I’m just going to take your word for it. It makes you feel miserable.”
Chris Holifield:
What made you finally give cannabis a chance? I felt like you were kind of nervous to really give it a chance.
Krissie:
Oh, my gosh! I was so nervous, because I just was so afraid I don’t know how my mind and body will react. With alcohol, I’ve been drinking for a couple of years. I mean, I didn’t drink till I was 30, but then I figured out which ones worked for me. Whiskey is going to give you a headache, because it has whatever in it, and then tequila’s not, so yay tequila. But with cannabis, I have no idea. I don’t know how I’m going to respond. And so it’s more of a fear, like I’m familiar with this and I know how to live like this, but I don’t know what will happen if I try that.
Tim Pickett:
You don’t know what the mind shift is going to be like, if you’re going to be yourself.
Krissie:
Totally. And I was like, I don’t know if I’m going to make sense or be spacey. I was just too nervous.
Tim Pickett:
Be able to take care of my kids?
Krissie:
Yes, and that was a big one.
Chris Holifield:
That was a big thing, now that you brought that up. I remember that she was very nervous for sleeping even.
Krissie:
I was always like, “I want to wait till Lucy’s asleep,” or I was always like…
Chris Holifield:
But weren’t afraid to drink so. That’s what’s interesting. You weren’t afraid to have some drink.
Krissie:
Because I stay more cognizant.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, I could see it. I’m looking at Chris and I’m thinking, “Well, he’s a little high, so I better not. I better stick with something on-”
Krissie:
Right. It’s more that. It’s more like, I’m just going to…
Tim Pickett:
I’ll chill over here doing my thing. He’s doing his thing.
Krissie:
You tag team when you’re a couple.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, for sure.
Krissie:
But having a few drinks though wouldn’t couch lock me, or make me sit and think about one thing really intensely. You know what I mean? So I was afraid I would get really distracted. Because, hello, I get distracted. Have you met me? And I’m afraid of enhancing that in any way, because it’s a super huge challenge for me. But you helped me. Chris helped me, and we’ve worked through it, and we found some indicas. And I think I’ve really, really found it.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, having that star-
Chris Holifield:
I didn’t realize that I was actually making an impression on you. I just thought I was, “I’m being a drug dealer here.”
Krissie:
I don’t talk a lot.
Tim Pickett:
… like, “Here, try this.”
Chris Holifield:
Adding humor there for people… I really wasn’t to drug dealing through my…
Krissie:
No, don’t talk about my feelings and thoughts a lot, but I watch.
Tim Pickett:
It really is, you’re just caring about your partner. I mean, [crosstalk 00:15:21], I know what this is like. You wanted your partner to feel better. And you wanted to Use something that helps you, right? Well, this helps me so much.
Chris Holifield:
I was like, “Why doesn’t this help you?”
Krissie:
You know what, yes, I did that to my sister. I was like, “You should up your bupropion like I did it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” She did. She had a seizure, a pretty crazy one. And she’s like, “I’m just going to go get my tincture.” After that, she’s like, “I’m not…”
Chris Holifield:
She has a sister in Washington, luckily. So they’re lucky up there in Washington, legal up there. So she’s-
Krissie:
It’s really helped her. So it’s nice to be able to talk to her about it too. She’s super LDS. She’s an amazing woman. Just carried a baby for her sister-in-law. That was amazing.
Chris Holifield:
… so talk about, how has it helped you get through your work day, especially through this last year with COVID? When you switched to working at home, we’re all here to help you. Kids are at home, I’m at home, you’re at home. We’re always on each other’s throat.
Krissie:
That in and of itself is like, “Oh, my gosh!”
Chris Holifield:
And you probably quickly realized that you could quickly turn into a heavy alcoholic if you’re not…
Krissie:
Yeah. Which was the 2020 joke, right?
Tim Pickett:
That’s right.
Krissie:
And not even a joke, it was a proven fact.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, COVID drinking, “I’m just going to day drink.”
Krissie:
I flipped, because I was like, “okay, I’m at home. I’m in a safe space. This is a good time for me to try cannabis and see how it affects. I don’t have to… I can just be at home safely and sit on the couch, and think.” And so it was actually a really good thing for me because it allowed me to do so many tests and trial and errors, and try the strains and try different oil infusions. And I had the time to do it. And I don’t think that I would have done that if I had to keep going to work every day, because I never would have found the time. It just would have been too stressful. So I swapped during 2020. And I’m so glad I did, because cannabis helped me so much when we got COVID. I could not make it through a day without probably 60 milligrams. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And now I actually have…
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, you’re dealing with a lot of post COVID symptoms.
Krissie:
Yeah, what they call a long hauler or something. So a lot of my physical symptoms, probably all of them, are still here and some of them are getting worse. So I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to get rid of it. Disclaimer, I know maybe I should try keto, but I’m not going to right now, because I want to eat bread.
Chris Holifield:
Well, that’s what she’s realizing, maybe-
Krissie:
That might help. I’m like keto would probably help. I have arthritis, tendonitis, fibromyalgia, and just everything hurts all the time, my wrist, my fingers.
Chris Holifield:
… your wrist. Talk about your wrist.
Krissie:
I work with my fingers and they hurt so bad all the time that I can barely move them. And so, cannabis has really helped me continue to power through and continue to work where I don’t think I would be able to work right now if I didn’t have it to help me set the pain aside in my head and be able to focus on other things.
Tim Pickett:
Right. It’s not that it takes away the pain, it’s just that-
Krissie:
Yes. Which surprised me. Well, everybody’s like, “Take it for pain.” And so you think it’s going to be a painkiller.
Tim Pickett:
… the expectation is, “I take ibuprofen. It makes me feel better. I can’t take ibuprofen anymore because it gave me ulcers. This is good for pain. It should act the same.”
Krissie:
Exactly.
Tim Pickett:
Surprise.
Krissie:
And no one really talks about… I mean, I’m sure it affects everyone differently. Maybe it does remove pain for some people.
Tim Pickett:
Some people. But a lot of people are just gives them a break, a mental break.
Krissie:
Yes. That’s exactly what it does for me. I always feel like all the nerves in my hands and my feet… I constantly feel like nerves on fire even when I’m medicating with cannabis. But when I am medicated, it’s like more of a soft feeling in the back of my head where I’m like, “I know that hurts. I can still feel it, but it’s not controlling me as much.”
Tim Pickett:
And you’re able to focus on your work even better because you’re not distracted by the pain.
Krissie:
Yeah. Feels like they’re falling asleep. Things that hurt with that cannabis feel like they’re asleep. Is that weird? I don’t know. I don’t know what other people experience.
Chris Holifield:
See, I don’t know what other people experience either. That’s the fun of this podcast, really is to listen… I mean, I was listening back to some older episodes over the last few days and it’s so interesting the different experiences that we all experience. Because I’m like, “Man, so-and-so just explained a similar thing, but what they experienced is so different than this person and this person and this person.”
Krissie:
Yeah. That’s why you really have to be able to-
Chris Holifield:
Have to find your thing.
Krissie:
… find your thing. Yeah. And we really need more… I mean, I know everyone’s trying, but I really, really hope that there will be good resources available. I know Tim, your place, utahmarijuana.org, you guys have awesome… When I went into your office, you had this little packet and actually everything was so pretty that I was… I still have it. Because you have these perfect little graphs explaining all the terpenes and how they help you, and it was eye opening.
Chris Holifield:
We take a few general concepts.
Krissie:
But people don’t even do that.
Tim Pickett:
Because everybody has different… Yeah, it’s true. I don’t know. I get really cynical that there’s so much money to be made in selling weed that nobody cares about, doing any education about why we should use this a certain way. Recently we released a video about addiction versus… Is marijuana addictive or is it just habit forming? And man, people get uptight when you say, well, no, it’s not addictive. But if you smoke five joints a day, you’re going to have withdrawal symptoms if you quit.
Chris Holifield:
Of course, yeah.
Krissie:
Well, you’re not going to feel great, obviously.
Tim Pickett:
You don’t feel great, and people get so mad.
Chris Holifield:
What were they saying.
Krissie:
That’s different than addiction.
Tim Pickett:
They’re like, “No, I can quit today and it doesn’t matter.” Yeah, you won’t die. But that’s not having a…
Krissie:
You’ll feel miserable again, is what will happen. You’ll go back to normal and then you’ll be mad about it.
Tim Pickett:
And you’ll about that.
Chris Holifield:
I think people are scared to admit that it might be a little addictive because they don’t want their cannabis to be screwed with.
Tim Pickett:
Taken away.
Chris Holifield:
Taken away.
Tim Pickett:
“Well, I don’t want this taken away. I want more access.”
Krissie:
Or judged. People are still.
Tim Pickett:
“We think it should be legal.” I mean, you’ve got to have both sides of the story. You need to talk about it.
Krissie:
Yeah. And that’s what is so fascinating, the science behind it. I’m so excited about all the stuff coming out and the ability to actually be able to study it now.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, I think so.
Chris Holifield:
Well, we still can’t study it enough. I mean just the capabilities of truly studying it.
Krissie:
I mean, we’re obviously at the tiny piece of snow on the tip of the iceberg of understanding, for sure. Which makes me excited because our knowledge will just continue to grow as society hopefully.
Tim Pickett:
Sorry. I’m switching gears here. Did you consciously use cannabis to quit alcohol?
Krissie:
I did. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
You gave yourself permission.
Krissie:
I didn’t really tell anyone. I don’t like telling people things because then I feel like I’m going to fail. So I don’t really know if I told you, Chris. You were just like, “Why aren’t you drinking all of a sudden?” And he was really confused.
Chris Holifield:
You’ve lost a lot of weight.
Krissie:
Yeah. “You got really skinny. And are you sure you don’t want me to go to the liquor store?” I’m like, “Yeah, I’m fine.” And I could tell he was really confused.
Tim Pickett:
But you didn’t want to give it away because for fear it would shape the [crosstalk 00:22:37].
Krissie:
I didn’t want to contaminate my hypothesis. So always, whenever I want to try something, I’ll get a notebook and write a hypothesis or a problem statement. And then I want to study it without any exterior interference, I guess, or without anybody’s opinions. I just want to study the facts, see how it works out and then apply it if I like it. And so, I did that a lot with cannabis. It took a lot of my time. I was working really hard on it in my spare time, because I didn’t want to start doing it if I didn’t have a plan, which is not like me at all. I don’t know why-
Chris Holifield:
I’m rubbing off on you.
Krissie:
… you’re rubbing off on me. What is wrong? I never do that stuff. I forgot where I was.
Chris Holifield:
But you had to plan to use cannabis to get off alcohol, to quit drinking.
Krissie:
And that it actually happened. So I got appendicitis. I got my appendix out.
Chris Holifield:
This all happened over COVID, man. She had to go in and get her appendix out right at the beginning of…
Krissie:
Right when we got COVID.
Chris Holifield:
When everything’s on locked down and you’re like, “I got to go into hospital by myself to get my appendix out.”
Krissie:
Like, it was about to burst and I was making tea and I’m like, “I’m just going to drink some hot tea. I probably have gas. I’m not going to go to the emergency room, because they’re just going to tell me I’m constipated.” I fatted for a while and that was probably a bad idea.
Tim Pickett:
This is what I did literally for six years of my life, is take care of people like that. And so often people would come in with burst appendicitis, septic. They’re like, “I just thought it was gas.”
Krissie:
It’s hard because if you have internal pains a lot, stomach pains, you’re just like, “There’s another one.” You don’t really think it’s anything different.
Tim Pickett:
Sure.
Krissie:
But then it just gets worse. And you’re like, “Okay.”
Tim Pickett:
I’m really getting sick.
Krissie:
I think we need to pay a little more attention to our bodies probably, I would say.
Tim Pickett:
And then admit when things are bad, but the system should be easier to access too, right?
Krissie:
Absolutely.
Tim Pickett:
You’ve got to go to the ER, you’ve got to register. You’re going to be there six hours. It’s all day. You’ve got kids, you’ve got other things going on. That’s not a very easy process to navigate.
Krissie:
It was very tricky. And when I came out, I was sick for a couple of weeks with COVID and I was just… For some reason I was like, you know what? That was such a horrible experience. That was so painful before I finally went in. I want to start taking a little bit better care of myself. And I should probably tone it down with the drinking, “Let’s try it. Let’s see if anything else can help me stay calm.” So I really doubled down on it during COVID while I was really sick. I got some gummies, because I had applied to be a patient. So I was already a patient and just testing things. And it really helped me be able to get up and function, even though I was so sick.
Krissie:
I mean, it was harder to do things when I had COVID than when I was about to burst with my appendix. I was like, “This is harder.” Because my whole body is just destroyed and it allowed me to actually get up and sit for a few hours and work, or help the kids, or have a conversation with somebody, because when I’m in pain, I don’t like to talk. I was like, “I have to keep…” I’m still on that path. “I have to keep investigating.” But I feel like it’s given me a part of myself back that I forgot existed if that’s, does that make sense?
Chris Holifield:
Absolutely.
Krissie:
I’ve found more of myself.
Chris Holifield:
So edibles, you were getting edibles. You started getting into the tinctures and the edibles. Because again, let’s go back to the smoking here. Remember the listeners, it bothered her throat. So it bothered her throat, even though my preferred is-
Krissie:
That’s why I’ve never been cool.
Chris Holifield:
… well, my preferred has always been flower. Just give it to me the raw, the real, the organic way. There’s no additives. I don’t have to worry about anything.
Krissie:
And that is the best.
Tim Pickett:
Do you feel like the experience is better, when you smoke it, you just can’t really tolerate it. Because we’re going to get into this. You make stuff.
Krissie:
Yeah, I love making stuff. The thing that I found works the best is to take about 30 milligrams at a bowl in an oil or whatever. And then very slowly microdose with a vape, because I can’t take like a big hit on a vape or anything. IT just destroys my throat.
Chris Holifield:
Just like a little one here and there [crosstalk 00:27:08].
Krissie:
Yeah. Just a little tiny one here and there to keep the edge off, I guess. I don’t know.
Tim Pickett:
It’s called layering and it’s-
Krissie:
That’s a thing?
Tim Pickett:
… yeah, layering.
Krissie:
Nice. Well, it seems to work better than just one or just the other. Smoking really probably works the least best for me that I’ve felt, because it doesn’t have the deep long-term effect that edibles do have with my mind and body.
Tim Pickett:
And do you find that you’re using an edible that is getting you… You’re getting a little bit of head change or you’re right at that level where you feel like you could do all of the normal stuff during the day. I hate to use the word microdose with, well, especially with 30 milligrams, because [crosstalk 00:27:57].
Krissie:
Not exactly a micro dose.
Tim Pickett:
It’s not exactly a micro dose. But to some people-
Krissie:
Thank you, COVID. I could not take that much before COVID.
Tim Pickett:
… some people though, 30 milligrams is a microdose. But I’m talking about a dose that you take because you know that’s a baseline. That’s a good baseline dose for me, and then I can add to it a little bit here and there with something inhaled, if I need to.
Krissie:
That’s exactly what I found works the best for my situation. And I’ve tried different strains, been studying different strains, and then I’ll try them in different oils and see how I respond to those and taking notes.
Chris Holifield:
Where are you getting most of your information though for note taking?
Krissie:
That’s a good question.
Chris Holifield:
I mean, you have few books. I mean, is just all over, Google, or…
Krissie:
When I went in for my first appointment to get my card at your office, my provider recommended this book…
Chris Holifield:
Women in Cannabis.
Krissie:
Yeah, a Woman’s Guide to Cannabis. And she walked me through it and explained a lot of things to me. And she’s like, “You have to get this book.” So I got that book and-
Chris Holifield:
It’s the one I got for Christmas.
Krissie:
… yeah, you got it for Christmas for me. Thank you. It’s super pretty. It’s the cutest book in the world and it’s very informative. It’s a lady who’s been making things to help people for a long time and actual experiences, and then she gives recipes and explains why. I found out, I think from her that, emu oil is the best lotion to absorb into your skin. So if you want to make a topical, you should infuse emu oil. And you need to have a carrier oil like a menthol or something or it will not help pull the THC into your bloodstream as, as well. So there’s all these little tiny tricks that I’ve learned from reading books, and some internet. It has to be a real site.
Tim Pickett:
Sure. You go read a blog post and then got to go confirm it somewhere else?
Krissie:
Yeah, for sure.
Tim Pickett:
Thank you. Well, that’s a great idea. Is that really true? I’m going to go double check it three or four times.
Krissie:
It’s like, you start at Reddit, and then you’re like, all right, down the rabbit hole.
Chris Holifield:
It’s like when you told me, “Chris, you know when you eat mangoes, you can get a better high.”
Krissie:
I did. I got so excited, except I hate mangoes. I was like, “I didn’t know mangoes could affect that.” But then aren’t there like terpenes and mangoes, and that’s what does it. It’s just so interesting. It’s just fascinating.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, the terpenes and mangoes, it would adjust the absorption time. Sativa, limonene will make things absorb a little faster.
Krissie:
I love Limonene.
Tim Pickett:
Sativas tend to hit a little hard.
Chris Holifield:
Let’s talk about that.
Tim Pickett:
Let’s talk about making things.
Chris Holifield:
You did some research on Levo. You got Levo too.
Krissie:
Yes, I did.
Chris Holifield:
Let’s talk about that for the listener so people that are listening might even be interested to know about the Levo. Cause we’ve had two Levos go (out) on us now.
Krissie:
Yeah. Okay. This is sad, because I really wanted to love Levo. Levo, it looks like a coffee machine, but it’s an infusion machine for oils and whatever kind of herbs you would prefer to use. So I got one and started making oils. I think I was able to make four batches and then-
Chris Holifield:
Not big ones either though.
Krissie:
… not big one.
Tim Pickett:
Okay. How much are we talking, and eighth?
Krissie:
Probably two eights. What is that, one fourth?
Tim Pickett:
Quarter. Yeah, so you get a quarter of-
Krissie:
I don’t do math. So a quarter to about a quarter cup of MCT oil, because you want it really dense. Otherwise, you have to just take it.
Tim Pickett:
… do you buy the clear MCT oil at Costco?
Krissie:
That is literally exactly the one I use. Yeah. There’s a little spray. Sprays in there.
Tim Pickett:
You spray it in.
Krissie:
I love it. Not messy. And then I learned about the sunflower…
Chris Holifield:
Lecithin.
Tim Pickett:
Lecithin.
Krissie:
I don’t want to say words. Yeah, lecithin, and how that helps. And I tried different ratios of lecithin with different amounts of-
Chris Holifield:
Flower?
Krissie:
… flower and MCT oil. And it was so much fun.
Tim Pickett:
You can adjust the strength of your oil based on how much oil you use.
Krissie:
Yes.
Tim Pickett:
The more oil to cannabis, the weaker.
Krissie:
Yes.
Tim Pickett:
Did you find it like a calculator online?
Krissie:
Lots of them. I found about three or four calculators, and then I would use each one of them every time and see which one…
Tim Pickett:
Are they different?
Krissie:
They’re different. Well, they’re different because they calculate differently. So they’re trying to come up with different outcomes based on the information you give them. So one of them would tell you in a dose, if you put everything in what a dose would be, and how big… If it’s a half teaspoon, here’s how much is in it. And then another one, it did it backwards and it really confused me. It only told you how much was in all of it, but then you couldn’t break it down. It was really weird, and it didn’t make sense. And I tried it forever and ever. So I studied calculators and then found one that made sense to me.
Tim Pickett:
Got it. This is another reason why people don’t make their own edibles.
Krissie:
It’s a lot, and it gets really expensive, because you have to do so much trial and error and you have to continue to buy these things. And all also sudden you’re like, “Oh, my gosh! I spent so much money.”
Tim Pickett:
You just use an eighth of flower or a quarter?
Krissie:
And it lasts about a week. I would say an eighth in an oil.
Chris Holifield:
For you.
Krissie:
For me. I don’t know. Everyone’s different.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, whatever. So you make this oil and then you have essentially your own strain. Does your house stink?
Krissie:
Sometimes.
Chris Holifield:
Sometimes. That’s a touchy subject with me, because I learned you don’t want to point out cause she gets very self-conscious If you bring up that it smells-
Tim Pickett:
You’re like, “Oh, it smells dank in here.”
Chris Holifield:
… this is a different thing, Tim. And this is actually something I’d love to talk about too. I don’t want to get too sidetracked.
Krissie:
Let’s get all the skeletons out.
Chris Holifield:
Krissie and I come from two different worlds. Krissie doesn’t understand that if it smells like marijuana, then you got to be a little concerned, because you don’t want the neighbors to smell it. Krissie comes from a world of, “Well, why is this illegal?” You know what I mean? She doesn’t understand why it’s something to be concerned about. What if the neighbor comes and knocks on the front door and wants to come inside, say, “What’s that smell?”
Krissie:
And here’s the problem with me. I’d be like, “That’s my cannabis oil.” I’m just. “Whatever.”
Chris Holifield:
Because you come from a different world because you’re more of a new school person.
Krissie:
Very.
Chris Holifield:
You don’t understand that the repercussion.
Krissie:
I don’t have the fear.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Krissie:
And I should have a little more.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, society should be more like that. You walk in and you’re like, “It smells like skunks in here. You must be making medicine.”
Krissie:
Exactly. What’s the big deal.
Chris Holifield:
But I’m the type of person that’s like, “That’s two or three years in jail.”
Krissie:
See, I’d be making and Chris would come into the kitchen and go, “Man, it stinks in here.” And I just get all mopey and walk away.
Chris Holifield:
And I didn’t realize… I wasn’t trying to be insulting.
Tim Pickett:
No, you’re just like, “Wow! It smells strong.”
Chris Holifield:
That’s some potent skunky, pungent stuff.
Tim Pickett:
It doesn’t take very long for the nose to get used to it, and you’re fine.
Krissie:
Well, that’s the problem.
Tim Pickett:
I’ve gone home from Zion. I was visiting somewhere-
Chris Holifield:
Your wife’s like, “Whoa!”
Tim Pickett:
Like, “Oh my gosh!” Or my daughter, she gets in the car and she’s like, “Oh, my gosh! It smells like skunks in here, dad.”
Krissie:
That is really tough. But I think people who are a little more naive like me think, “Well, am I going to make it in the oil and I’ll just be able to open the windows and air it out really quick, just like any other herbs.” And so, I’m sitting here hoping I can make it and it won’t bother anyone, and nobody will notice. And then when someone points it out, I get all like butthurt.
Chris Holifield:
But anyway, back to your question, Tim. It doesn’t smell horrible. The Levo does a pretty good job masking.
Krissie:
It does. It does a good job.
Chris Holifield:
There’s only a few moments during there, I think, when you’re opening the canister for a second, it lets out, whif!
Krissie:
And you can never scrub the smell off of it quite.
Tim Pickett:
No, because it’s silicon, right?
Krissie:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
It has silicon parts.
Krissie:
And the metal even. Well, some silicone parts and some metal, both. As long as you keep it closed you’re fine.
Tim Pickett:
So have you tried a different… You’ve had three Levos?
Chris Holifield:
Well, two, but they’re all broken.
Krissie:
Yeah. They’re all broken.
Tim Pickett:
So are you switching over to the… There’s a few other ones. There’s one that’s purple.
Krissie:
That’s the one I want.
Tim Pickett:
I don’t quite remember the name of it.
Krissie:
I was showing you… Yeah. You guys talked about it on a previous episode and that’s how found out about it.
Chris Holifield:
I wouldn’t even know where to start Googling. I said I could Google it, but…
Krissie:
Oh, my gosh! I don’t remember the name of it, but it’s purple. It looks like a thermos, right?
Tim Pickett:
Yes.
Krissie:
And you put it in and it in… It’s like an all-in-one, like a thermos that you just use.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. You put it in. You put your weed in there, and then you push go.
Chris Holifield:
But now you haven’t really made anything for awhile, right?
Krissie:
No. I started using our Instapot.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, for just [crosstalk 00:36:33].
Krissie:
Because both of the Levo… So my first Levo broke and I wrote, and I’m like, “Can I trade it in? What can I do?” And they’re like, “Well, it’s COVID keep it. We’ll send you a new one.” So I got another one that I was like “Holla!” I mean, one doesn’t work, but, hey, two Levos.
Tim Pickett:
Now you’ve got two of them.
Krissie:
And then I made three batches of oil and the second Levo stopped turning on. And so I’m just really bummed, because I want to love it. It’s such a great product. It’s so cool.
Tim Pickett:
How can this be so hard?
Chris Holifield:
But you’re not the only one who deals with this.
Krissie:
No, it’s pretty common.
Chris Holifield:
I mean, if you go to the Levo Facebook group, I would say 90% of the people in the Facebook group are like, “This thing… the door broke.”
Krissie:
They should be using more solid materials for sure.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. They’re trying.
Krissie:
They’re trying. Exactly.
Tim Pickett:
Hopefully, when they rebrand as a different name and delete that Facebook page, it’ll be fine.
Krissie:
Then it’ll be okay. But yeah, so I gave it a good try.
Tim Pickett:
But there a few different ones.
Chris Holifield:
Magic butter or something.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, there’s the magic butter machine.
Krissie:
I’ve heard of the magic butter. I’ve that’s good for big batches, but in all reality, when am I going to have enough money to make a big batch?
Tim Pickett:
Like, “I’m going to put a whole ounce in there.”
Chris Holifield:
More commercial.
Tim Pickett:
That I feel like need to go… We need to grow our separate batches.
Krissie:
That’s what I cannot wait for. I can’t wait till we can actually grow our own. Because I’d really like to even make raw smoothies. It would be so great to add it as greens to things without decarb… Words are so hard, you guys. Decarboxylating it. There’s still a lot of health benefits.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. You could decarb it slightly too. You could do things like… You’re going to get some of the raw effects, but you’re going to decarb just really lightly. There’s some teas you can make that are that way.
Krissie:
Really?
Tim Pickett:
There’s an Indian tea called Bhang. That’s a really light, maybe [crosstalk 00:38:16].
Krissie:
I’m sorry. Continue.
Tim Pickett:
It’s a tea. That’s only lightly decarboxylated. So it’s not super psychoactive. Now if you overcook the tea, no guarantees.
Krissie:
See, I need to learn more about that.
Tim Pickett:
Stuff like that, I mean, you would really like.
Krissie:
I would love it. See, I’ve just been mixing the oil into Chai’s or matcha tea, or taking the leftovers after I make the oil and soaking them like a teabag in a coffee or something to absorb what’s over.
Tim Pickett:
Whatevers. Now we’re talking about like the tannins, I guess.
Krissie:
I don’t know what it is, but it’s lovely.
Tim Pickett:
Be like the plant, you’re making a tea. Man, I just lost my train of thought.
Krissie:
You’re welcomed.
Tim Pickett:
I’m just fascinated by this cooking your own stuff. So the Instapot, what the hell!
Chris Holifield:
Have you heard of people using the Instapot?
Tim Pickett:
No.
Krissie:
I will figure it out if I need to.
Tim Pickett:
The oven seems like that would just make your house stink.
Krissie:
Yeah. I’ve never tried the oven.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, that’s just a recipe for the neighbors to call the cops.
Krissie:
I think it would be the best way to do it because you can evenly distribute everything, but I don’t-
Tim Pickett:
How about in Instapot, can you control the temperature?
Krissie:
You can… Well, kind of. So I use a pressure cook setting and you pressure cook it on high, which is, I believe, 250 degrees.
Tim Pickett:
You learned this on the internet.
Krissie:
I did.
Chris Holifield:
The Internet’s a beautiful thing.
Tim Pickett:
Yes.
Krissie:
YouTube is the greatest search engine.
Tim Pickett:
All right. So you put it in the Instapot, you…
Krissie:
So I put the raw flower in the Instapot. Don’t grind it. I used to grind.
Chris Holifield:
In a mixing jar with a screwed on lid. So you have a lid on the mixing jar.
Krissie:
And a couple of cups of water.
Tim Pickett:
Okay.
Krissie:
So it’s pressurizing. I don’t know. It’s cooking the water and heating the flower.
Tim Pickett:
I got it.
Krissie:
I’ll break it up with my hands, because if I use a grinder… I used to use a coffee grinder, but it’s so sticky, you couldn’t get everything out of it. And you really just need to get enough surface area for the oil to grab onto stuff. So you don’t have to have really fine grinds.
Tim Pickett:
Is the oil inside the jar already?
Krissie:
No, but I have heard people do that. So first I put it in on high for about, I want to say 40 minutes. And so it cooks it at 250 degrees for 40 minutes, and that is supposed to perfectly decarboxylate it. And then I open it up, and put the oil in and the sunflower lecithin, and shake it and top it off, put it back in, and then put it in for another 40 minutes at high pressure. I mean, it’s worked for me. I think I do like the quality that the Levo made, the quality of oil Levo made was really nice. But this works.
Tim Pickett:
Do you put any flavoring in your oil?
Krissie:
No. Should I?
Chris Holifield:
A little blueberry, a little strawberry…
Tim Pickett:
I don’t know.
Krissie:
I never thought to.
Tim Pickett:
Just because the tincture, you’re essentially making the same thing they sell at the-
Chris Holifield:
I keep a little vanilla extract in there, right?
Krissie:
Can you really make it taste better though? I mean, it does not taste great.
Tim Pickett:
Well, I think the two flavors I’ve tasted are peppermint or cinnamon, something strong.
Krissie:
Like an overpowering…
Tim Pickett:
Something that’ll basically overpowered the skunk and dirt.
Krissie:
Interesting. I’m going to try that next time. Because it usually just tastes like dirt and bad sunflower seeds, because the sunflower lecithin is not good tasting either.
Tim Pickett:
Sunflower oil is strong tasting.
Krissie:
Yeah. You do a half a teaspoon and it takes over, man. It’s crazy.
Tim Pickett:
So what about the strains are different? Can you tell, “I have this oil that I like to use for this type of day, and this type of pain.” And you can tell a big difference between your oils?
Krissie:
Yes. I mean, I have fallen off the wagon with the testing of the oils, but when I was really testing everyone I could get my hands on, I found that typically I don’t handle sativas very well. But if I make a sativa into an oil, it’s a perfect daytime edible for me, because it doesn’t make me as anxious as smoking it would. But it gives me the clarity and energy to continue doing things. And then, if I just want to, I don’t know, relax. I like indica because it’s just nice.
Tim Pickett:
She uses this face, relax. Like, “I don’t know what that really mean. I’ve heard that’s a thing.”
Chris Holifield:
Some of us, it taught to know that it’s okay to just lay back and relax.
Krissie:
Because usually at night we “relax”, but I’m still working. I’m always on the computer working. And so when I’m in my relaxed working mode, I like to… Fatso was a good one. I made oil with Fatso, and that was really good.
Tim Pickett:
There are some people out there who are going to listen to this are like, “Oh, my God! That’s blasphemy. You’ve changed Fatso into something that [inaudible 00:43:22].”
Krissie:
Hey, come at me, bro. I’ll fight for it. I am very weirdly medicinally obsessed with it.
Tim Pickett:
That’s a cool… There was some great ideas that happened with the Fatso oil, I bet.
Krissie:
Yeah, probably. Can’t remember now, but I’m sure they were great. I’ve been killing it in the brain department lately, except for talking.
Chris Holifield:
Your creative brain definitely comes out a lot more when you consume…
Krissie:
It helps more than any of the ADHD medications I’ve ever been on either. It helps with my anxiety more than all of those drugs. It helps with my ADHD, PTSD, my pain. It really helps in a better way than all of them.
Chris Holifield:
If cannabis was 100% legal and we were able to grow our own, I mean, would it be safe to say that you would probably be able to get off any psych medication, any sort of your medication, right?
Krissie:
I think so.
Chris Holifield:
Would you say it’s just because of the cost, because of all of that, that makes it hard to consume the amount you need?
Krissie:
Yeah. Well, and I have thought about this, because I don’t know. And, Tim, maybe you would know more about this. I don’t know how THC affects people who have lower serotonin production. So I have very low serotonin production and so I take serotonin whatever. And I don’t know if I weaned off those. If I replaced it with cannabis. I mean, I would have to stay very consistent. I could not forget.
Tim Pickett:
That’s a different pathway. So THC usually works in the dopamine pathway, which is more of a reward pathway. And serotonin is that depression pathway, so it’s a little different. So it’s hard to know different… People would be affected differently because sometimes I would say maybe the serotonin is affected. You just don’t feel good in general. And you can fix that by increasing the serotonin. But if you could use something else, then you wouldn’t need an increased in serotonin. So I’m not saying that it’s impossible.
Krissie:
That’s cool.
Tim Pickett:
So I’m just saying they work in different pathways. So it maybe less likely-
Krissie:
It’s like using weed to get off alcohol, using dopamine to get off serotonin.
Tim Pickett:
… yes. So quite a one for one trade-off.
Krissie:
I’m oversimplifying it.
Tim Pickett:
Well kind of, but really not. All you want to do is feel better. All you want to do is do more that you want to do. So whatever you’ve got to take or supplement with to make that happen is what you should do. And I’m going to qualify that by… Because of course you don’t want to go snort coke if that’s what the path is.
Krissie:
That makes me feel great. What are you talking about?
Chris Holifield:
I got some medicinal coke in here.
Tim Pickett:
But what I’m saying is, the most natural way you can do that is with the least amount of outside inputs. Does that make sense?
Krissie:
Yes, where you’re just deciding for yourself.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. You’re deciding for yourself and you’re using the products that you feel are the best for you, and you’re just moving forward. You’re moving forward to feel better. Right now you don’t have access to exactly that in a totally natural way. So the choices are some pharmaceuticals and some natural stuff. Maybe down the road, 10 years, we find out more and you can move to all natural stuff.
Krissie:
Which would be so killer.
Tim Pickett:
Which is cool that you’re doing the journaling and the trial and error, but giving yourself permission.
Krissie:
Not consistently.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. You’re doing it way more consistent than most. And giving yourself permission to do it is most of the battle. We talk all the time and this guilt, and shame, and this idea that it’s… I mean, still we talk about the kitchen smells like weed. Hopefully one day that’s okay.
Chris Holifield:
Well, and I think as people like Krissie come on board and get introduced to cannabis, and they bring on these new mentalities of, “Wait, why do this even have a bad stigma?”
Krissie:
We’re just so ignorant. We don’t know better.
Chris Holifield:
It’s not that you’re ignorant. It’s just that you realize that it’s just a plan. It’s just…
Tim Pickett:
This is just how the smells. I bring in lavender and my house is going to smell like lavender.
Krissie:
You just don’t want to like fumigate your house with cannabis. It’s not going to smell great.
Chris Holifield:
What is your favorite strain? Do you have a favorite strain right now?
Krissie:
This is very tough. I love Jack Herer in an oil. I did love Madmax too. Oh, my gosh! Madmax was really great. I put that in an oil, and it’s been a while. Fatso is one that I really loved. And then the last one I had was Jack Herer too. So those are the three that really stood out to me. And I know they’re different. Madmax, I think is a hybrid. It might be more a sativa. And then Jack Herer is a sativa. But if I smoke it as well as take the pills, I get a little bit too anxious feeling. So when I take sativa oil, I’ll try Indica vape too. Is that weird? To balance out, not to get too jittery, I guess. Because I can get really anxious really easy.
Chris Holifield:
Talk about the capsules. You put them in capsules. We didn’t talk about she puts them in capsules too?
Tim Pickett:
No, you’ve just mentioned that you’ve got capsules. Are there big capsules, little?
Krissie:
No, they were just regular capsules. Just a regular little veggie capsule.
Chris Holifield:
Gelatin, veggie. You get them on Amazon or something.
Krissie:
And I made MCT oil the same as I always do. And then I just got a little set up, and I filled capsules and then I did the math to figure out exactly how much each capsule was. And it came to around 10 to 15 milligrams of capsule, I believe. And so then I could calculate, “I’m going to take this many capsules and see how I feel for the next four hours.” And then I’ll try it again at noon and see. And I usually can tell when it wears off, I don’t realize it’s happening, but I get really cranky and tired. And then also I’m like-
Chris Holifield:
I bet, Krissie, you need more capsules.
Krissie:
… I know.
Tim Pickett:
[crosstalk 00:49:30]. It’s capsule time.
Krissie:
It’s such a smooth decline though. When you come off, let’s say, Adderall, because I take Adderall for my ADHD, much harder crash. And with cannabis it’s like, you ease down into it. Yeah. Everything hurts and you’re a little more grumpy, but it’s not all of a sudden and that’s actually really nice. I don’t think people talk about that part of enough.
Tim Pickett:
So you have a time of day where you’re done taking cannabis?
Krissie:
I don’t know.
Tim Pickett:
Because you know, “If I take this at eight o’clock at night, then I’m going to be up.”
Krissie:
Yeah.
Chris Holifield:
That’s true. I’ve never really thought that.
Krissie:
It’s tough because I wasn’t sleeping a lot. I was working. And so I was very motivated night and I would take it all the time. So now I’m trying to figure out, because now I’m getting a little bit more sleep at night over the last week. I’m like, “Okay, let’s balance this.” And so now I’m still trying to figure out when a good time is. I don’t know. Because if I want to go to bed, I just work until I’m tired. So I do not pay enough attention to time. It’s really bad.
Chris Holifield:
This is what it’s like to be married to Krissie.
Tim Pickett:
And you’re working at home so it’s endless-
Chris Holifield:
When does it end?
Krissie:
I know. It’s a nightmare.
Tim Pickett:
… endless availability.
Krissie:
Chris is so patient.
Tim Pickett:
Your employers love you.
Krissie:
I hope so.
Tim Pickett:
They’re like, “Don’t worry. She’s always working.”
Krissie:
I’ve always called myself an on-call designer. So there you have it.
Chris Holifield:
What would you tell somebody? This is a question I like to ask people that come through your Krissie, is people that are listening. Because I know there’s a lot of people listening that are thinking about starting cannabis. They’re thinking about, should I get my card? Should I start doing this? What would you tell somebody who maybe was like you a year and a half ago, where you were nervous, where you were… Go back further, whatever it was. What would you tell somebody who’s thinking about, they’re apprehensive, they don’t know where to start, but they’re nervous?
Krissie:
Personally, if you’re someone like me who you really do… I can only really see it as medicine. I don’t really think I’ve gotten high, high. I’ve never really gone that far with it. [crosstalk 00:51:34]. Because I don’t think my brain likes that. Maybe I have once or twice. But if someone wants to think about it more medicinally the way I do, I would say go get 2.5 milligrams… They probably don’t make that. Five milligrams [crosstalk 00:51:47].
Tim Pickett:
They do. They make that spray.
Krissie:
Or the spray. Yeah, get a really-
Tim Pickett:
On a tincture, you can dial it down to 2.5 milligrams.
Krissie:
… and do a one-to-one CBD, or a one to two. So it’s one THC to CBD. Try a low THC slowly, and just see how you feel every couple of hours. And you have to pay attention to when it helps you feel good and then when you start to go back down, so you can assess how much you might need at what time. That sounds like a lot of work, but it’s actually fun.
Tim Pickett:
If you can give yourself permission, or somebody gives you permission to experiment with it in that way and you don’t feel guilty, then I feel like that’s the-
Krissie:
It’s huge.
Tim Pickett:
… then you can do the work to figure it out. But it’s got to be okay. You’ve got to be able to take it, and not think bad about yourself. Not just about the THC. Not worry about how it is perceived to you to be using this thing.
Krissie:
Yes. You got to realize it’s going to be okays, “This is why I’m a patient. And if someone has a problem, come talk to me.” But you do. It’s hard to give yourself that permission, especially in a society or an area that we live in that has a little bit more strong of an opinion against it. Now, I would say start small. Because if I took 2.5 milligrams when I first started, that would…
Chris Holifield:
That would have knocked you out.
Krissie:
That would have knocked me out. I would have gone nuts. That was way too much. And so I really worked up super slow. And now it’s like 30 is nothing… Or it’s not nothing, but it’s the perfect dose I need to feel very stable and calm.
Tim Pickett:
And I’d qualify that to people out there who are thinking, well, 30 milligrams… You’ve increased your tolerance, you’re using too much. You should have stayed at 10 milligrams.
Krissie:
And I worry about that.
Tim Pickett:
That’s not true. It’s just not true. People sometimes need to build up the tolerance so they can take more. So there is some research that would show your therapeutic dose is not dependent on how high you get in the beginning. You’re working up to where you’re feeling better. And sometimes you got to build up tolerance so that you can take 20 milligrams, because that might be the sweet spot. And that takes some time. I mean, I talk to patients all the time who are taking literally one drop of tincture to start with, and then they’re taking two drops, and then they’re taking three drops, and they’re working up to where they can tolerate it. And it’s starting to get them the relief they want, but it’s not [crosstalk 00:54:29].
Krissie:
Maybe a tincture is a good way to go. Gummies are yummy.
Tim Pickett:
Gummies.
Krissie:
Tagline [inaudible 00:54:36].
Chris Holifield:
I’ve heard edibles you can become quite tolerant of them very quickly.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, they convert over in the liver, and they become almost stronger in some people.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Krissie:
See, and that is a huge thing though, that I worry about. I think a lot of people like me might worry about… I’m like, “Holy crap! My tolerance has gone up so much. Is it going to keep doing this? Is it like a hockey stick?”
Chris Holifield:
See, I don’t think it’s that high. Like what? Because you can take 30 milligrams now and it doesn’t-
Krissie:
It’s high for me.
Tim Pickett:
I feel like at some point-
Krissie:
It affects me differently than it used to, or at least I deal with it better.
Tim Pickett:
…I don’t know. We could come up with ways to define tolerance, but I think your tolerance is too high if you can’t afford it.
Krissie:
Definitely.
Tim Pickett:
If you can’t take a break once in awhile. I think it’s important for people to be able to take a little bit of a break.
Chris Holifield:
I think that’s just more of a psychological thing. Like, “Man, I got to take a break.”
Tim Pickett:
“I got to take a couple of days.”
Chris Holifield:
You know what I mean? You’re like, “It’s so good though,” and you hit your lips.
Krissie:
It is sometimes really nice, even just as a reminder, like this is how I feel normal. Take two or three days and be like, “Wow, this is why [crosstalk 00:55:43].”
Tim Pickett:
This is why I need cannabis. You do not feel good.
Krissie:
Yeah. It helps reaffirm that you’re doing the right thing for yourself.
Tim Pickett:
Sure. And then you’re spending less money and maybe you can refresh. Maybe we need to build in refresh camps, a couple of days where you can do some things, you can do some self-exploration, find out how off you are by not having cannabis.
Chris Holifield:
Like a detox center or something [crosstalk 00:56:07].
Krissie:
But you’re in the middle of the woods. So when you’re screaming, no one can hear you.
Tim Pickett:
But then you can reward yourself by using half as much on day three and having just as good of effect.
Krissie:
That’s actually a really great idea, especially for people who really need more guidance to learn how to take breaks. Like, “Here’s a retreat, learn how to take a break and go back… Work your way back up.”
Tim Pickett:
Work your way back up.
Krissie:
I like that.
Tim Pickett:
I like the the idea of growing your own, being able to grow a few different strains, try them out in your kitchen, especially.
Krissie:
That is the thing. Every time I make stuff, I’m like, “Chris, I cannot wait until I can grow this. I just want to grow it.”
Chris Holifield:
Well, I think you would know more food if you could.
Krissie:
Totally. I would eat it.
Chris Holifield:
Making some spaghetti, or Making some bread, whatever.
Tim Pickett:
Sure. Because the plant would grow pound or two pounds or five pounds. Some of the plants just make a ton and so much more affordable.
Krissie:
[crosstalk 00:57:01] So much more. I’m super into the… I’m super fascinated by the effects of raw cannabis and the health benefits of it. I would just love to be able to test it in my own kitchen someday.
Tim Pickett:
I mean, I think it’ll happen.
Krissie:
I think so too. I’m just saying I can’t wait until, because it will happen. It just might take a minute.
Chris Holifield:
I’m glad we finally were able to record with you. Finally able to get you on the podcast and-
Krissie:
Thanks for letting me come on.
Tim Pickett:
So am I. This has been really fun.
Krissie:
Really. And this was more like just hanging out.
Chris Holifield:
… hopefully we’ve enlightened some listeners, open some eyes with the possibilities of edibles and tinctures.
Krissie:
Yeah, man. And I don’t know anything, but hit me up if maybe I said something that you have a question about. I don’t know.
Chris Holifield:
Let’s send people to your Instagram. I know a lot of our listeners are on Instagram. Lady Salt Lake is your Instagram, right?
Krissie:
Yeah, @LadySaltLake.
Tim Pickett:
Lady Salt?
Krissie:
That’s a cocky name. No, it was cute. I’m like, it’s cute.
Tim Pickett:
I like it.
Krissie:
Thanks. But obviously a disclaimer, not an expert. Call Tim. Tim’s an expert. I’m really obsessed with research and science, and it’s just a nerdy outlet. So I love to find answers. If you have a question, I would love to find the answer, if I have time.
Tim Pickett:
I think that it’s a community. None of us are really experts. We’re all really learning together.
Chris Holifield:
We’re all learning. Yeah.
Krissie:
I like that.
Tim Pickett:
I can shed some insight on certain things, and you can help people with the cooking.
Krissie:
Sounds good.
Chris Holifield:
Any final words you want to leave with the listeners, Krissie? Anything you want to ask? Final things you want to ask her, Tim?
Tim Pickett:
Thanks for coming on.
Krissie:
Hey, thanks for letting me come on. I feel like I’m one of the cool kids now.
Chris Holifield:
And you can listen to Krissie on our other podcast, I AmSalt Lake. She co-hosts that with me on there. So go listen.
Krissie:
If you can’t get enough of my ramblings here.
Chris Holifield:
And then Lady Salt Lake is your Instagram, Facebook, you can connect with you at krissie@iamsaltlake.com.
Krissie:
Yeah, krissie@iamsaltlake, K-R-I-S-S-I-E. Find Chris, and then you’ll find me. We’re always together.
Chris Holifield:
Make sure you’re subscribed to the podcast in whatever podcast app you listen to podcasts, and leave us a review. We’d love to hear that. We’re here every week. We’ve got a brand new episode every Friday, 4:20 AM. It comes to your podcast app. So make sure you subscribe.
Krissie:
I love that you do that, by way. That’s still my favorite.
Chris Holifield:
If you want to come on the podcast, please reach out to Tim or myself. Let us know what you got going on. Let us know what you would like to come on and talk to. If there’s a subject that you’re like, “Hey, I’d love to bring this out and let people know about this,” let us know. Because I’m sure we’re pretty open. Anything you want to add real quick?
Tim Pickett:
Stay safe out there.
Episode 60 of Utah in the Weeds is quite a bit different in that it was recorded live at WB’s eatery in Ogden, Utah. It was sponsored by Salt Baked City and hosted by WB’s, a relatively new restaurant that opened in late 2019 [02:05], just months before the start of the coronavirus pandemic.
WB’s is unique in a couple of ways. [03:09] First, they feature dry cocktails for people who don’t consume alcohol. Second, the place is cannabis friendly. During the podcast, they handed out cannabis-themed coasters to designate who was drinking dry cocktails as opposed to those consuming alcohol.
The restaurant offers a limited number of CBD products alongside the food. [04:07] They are working on a beverage line, too. And if you are interested in a scratch-and-sniff book to help you familiarize yourself with different cannabis strains, WB’s has one for sale. [13:51]
Early in the broadcast Tim briefly discussed the fact that older people are more likely to use THC and alcohol together. [08:48] He recommended against that, saying it’s not a wise idea. The thought came up because of WB’s dry cocktails. Tim wanted to remind guests to go dry if they were using THC.
Chris asked WB’s owner Vivi Wanderley-Britt if she and her wife had plans to make their other two restaurants cannabis-friendly. [11:40] At the moment, they do not. They want to keep the cannabis thing with WB’s for the time being. Should they open other WB’s locations, these would also be cannabis-friendly.
This particular podcast is truly unique. Tim and Chris talked with Wanderley-Britt about so many things that we can’t cover it all in a summary. If you are interested in the concept of a cannabis-friendly restaurant, this episode is for you. And if you’re in Ogden, check out WB’s.
Chris Holifield:
All right, for those of you that can hear, they’re going to enjoy the podcast recording. For those of you that can’t, it is what it is. You can go and download the episode at a later date at Utah in the Weeds, any podcast app you can find it in. Anyway, we should get going. This is going to be a live recording at WB’s Eatery here in Ogden. Thank you to WB’s for letting us record. Thank you to Cole with Salt Baked City for putting on this event, and WB’s for hosting it.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, absolutely. We want to introduce the owner of WB’s right away. And there’s a little housekeeping that she needs to do. And it’s just great that you’ve asked everybody to be here. This is really exciting. [Vivi 00:00:48] from WB’s Eatery.
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
Hi, everyone, welcome. Thank you for coming. Just some housekeeping, when you checked in, you were given coasters. For those of you who have the sativa coaster, it means that you drink drinks with alcohol, you cannot walk around the restaurant. We are a restaurant and not a bar, so you have to stay seated. If you have the indica coaster, it means you’re drinking a dry cocktail, which means that you can walk around with your drink. But if you drink alcohol, if you have a glass of wine, you cannot walk around. So please just stay seated. And you are welcome to buy more drinks if you’d like, we pair the three cocktails with the bites. And we’ll have our staff walking around. So just flag one of us and let us know how we can better serve you. And thank you for being here. We’re excited.
Chris Holifield:
I’m excited, thank you.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, this is pretty exciting.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, no, this is a great location. Can we start talking with you here? I want to find out about WB’s.
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
We can.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, let’s do this. Tell us about WB’s, how long have you been here?
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
WB’s, we opened up WB’s in November of 2019, right before the pandemic. We work with Thane who is the owner of the Monarch. And he approached Amy, my wife, because we own Pig and a Jelly Jar. We have three locations. One of them is on 25th Street, and he wanted her to have a restaurant here and be the flagship for the building. So WB’s was concepted on a rainy day. It started with a sandwich concept, and then it quickly evolved. We were like, well, it needs to be more than just sandwiches. I’m from Brazil, so you will notice that there’s some Latin flavor on the menu. The menu is also inspired by our travels to [Tulum 00:02:56] and Europe. We wanted a place that is laid back, that you can come in and work in the morning, you can have a latte, just hang out here and come back at night to have cocktails.
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
We have focused on non-alcoholic cocktails, Amy and I don’t drink anymore. And we think that you can have fun having dry cocktail. So we had a mixologist actually, develop and come up with our dry cocktails. And WB’s is also a cannabis concept, is a cannabis lifestyle brand. So WB’s can be Wanderley-Britt, which is our last name, or Weed and Bites. So it can go either way. But it’s cannabis-friendly, we welcome everybody. We’re excited that cannabis medically is legal here. And when recreational becomes legal, then we’ll probably put more emphasis on the Weed and Bites, because that’s what the concept’s all about.
Chris Holifield:
And are you putting some CBD and some hemp in some of your products now that are being sold here?
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
Yes. So we work with a company out of Denver, and they make our CBD. It’s 1500 milligrams and it’s fantastic. So we white label the CBD. I started taking CBD because I have herniated discs. And I don’t like taking medication, so I decided to give it a try. And it really helped me. And it helped our dogs because we have older dogs, and they have arthritis. So it helped the dogs with the pain and anxiety too. And because WB’s is a cannabis lifestyle brand, Amy said why not have a white label CBD? So we even have an LLC for a beverage line. We’re hoping to get into that and have a CBD beverage line was in the next 12 months.
Chris Holifield:
Are you working on that right now? Or are you…
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
No, we’re looking for partners, so if anyone out there… We talked a little bit quickly with Beverly from Jilu when she was here. And because now the industry is growing here, if there’s anyone out there that is willing to go into this adventure with us, let’s chat.
Tim Pickett:
So right now Vivi, they’re serving, just to explain to the listeners where we’re at. We’re in this great corner space in Ogden, the sun shining on the patio outside, there’s people outside on the patio. There’s people inside big open space. This is just a beautiful, it’s a really beautiful space. There’s a coffee bar up front, you can order coffee in the morning, I guess at any time. I had lunch here and I had some tostadas with Brussels sprouts, that were phenomenal. And you can have a beer with lunch and come here at night and have cocktails, or have beer, as a restaurant. You’re not a wine bar.
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
No, we’re not a wine bar.
Tim Pickett:
But right now, so this event tonight, this Weed Social is a multi-course tasting menu paired with some cocktails dry or not dry. What are we seeing now that’s served first?
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
You’re seeing a salad course. We have… well, not a course, five bites. So the first one is a salad. And I cannot remember the name of the cocktail, but I think you have it here. The salad is fantastic. It is a spring salad with lemon basil vinaigrette. And it pairs with a pineapple paradise. So I believe that that’s what they’re having right now. I would say watch out for the Acapulco smoke, because they smoke the drink. It’s pretty cool.
Tim Pickett:
They smoke the drink in front of you?
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
Yeah, when they serve you the drink, it has smoke coming out of it. So they’re prepping now.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, I see. Almost like a cover, a glass cover goes over the drink?
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
Yes, we have a smoker.
Tim Pickett:
And you have a smoker that smokes the drink?
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
That smokes the drink.
Tim Pickett:
That’s pretty awesome.
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
Yeah. So [Vinnie 00:07:15] one of our bartenders came up with that.
Tim Pickett:
And you can choose either sativa or indica drink.
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
One is alcoholic and one is dry-
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
The other is not alcoholic. Yeah, we thought it would be nice to play off of the cannabis, because we are a lifestyle. And you can also take it home, because it’s cute. On the one side of the coaster, you have the Cocktail and Cannabis Club presents with Social, and Cole from Salt Baked City hosts the event. He has been a great partner and our actually gateway to the community.
Tim Pickett:
Right, yeah. Shout out to Cole. Right down there. Thanks, Cole. And you’re the one who got us involved in this, too. Salt Baked City, which had their first publication two months ago?
Cole Fullmer:
Three.
Tim Pickett:
Three months ago. If you haven’t seen it, there are maybe four or five copies that haven’t been given out throughout the Valley. You can search for them and read all about the insiders, essentially, in the cannabis space. Does a really good job of keeping the community informed. It’s great to be out again.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, no this is great.
Tim Pickett:
This is the first event we’ve done, Chris.
Chris Holifield:
Oh, yeah.
Tim Pickett:
It’s really exciting. I wanted to make a comment about the alcoholic versus non-alcoholic drinks. I think it really fits well with the idea of a cannabis lifestyle, because I don’t know if you guys out there know this, but if you’re over 40, you’re more likely to use alcohol and THC at the same time, which is not very safe. It’s not a very safe practice. But us over 40 people, we tend to do it more. The younger crowd tends not to do that. They tend not to mix. It’s either one or the other. And tonight, the idea is, look, if you’re going to be using THC as part of your lifestyle, then non-alcoholic drinks are going to be a better choice.
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
Yes. And they’re great non-alcoholic drinks. Honestly, we have some non-distilled spirits that if you smell the bottle of the killer whiskey, you would think that there’s alcohol and there’s none. So you can still enjoy. You can still enjoy a great cocktail, a dry cocktail. The taste is there, but just not the alcohol. And yes, we don’t think mixing THC with alcohol is a good thing. And I come from the marketing background and we’ve seen research that the younger generation, they are choosing THC and not alcohol. So you have that trend ahead already started. I mean, we hope that it will be legal recreational here, and when we get to that point, then we would switch to allow people to consume and have only dry cocktails. Which is what they have in Europe.
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
Amy and I went to Amsterdam, and we went to a café. We didn’t know what to expect, and we’re like, there was no alcohol. It was pretty cool, because you could choose your strain. And I don’t smoke. Amy has a medical card and it helps her tremendously. I get paranoid, it does not work for me. And I think it’s because I’m already calm. I love CBD. But I ate half of a brownie. I slept the entire time from Amsterdam all the way back to Belgium.
Tim Pickett:
I’m jealous.
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
But it was cool. And that’s what we want to do here. When it becomes legal, we want to turn this into a weed and bites place.
Tim Pickett:
I haven’t seen this type of restaurant and this type of place anywhere, where you can have coffee in the morning and cocktails at night. This doesn’t really exist here at least in Utah, I don’t know if it exists in the US. But are there other places that you can do this? Or is Ogden unique?
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
I think we’re unique. We haven’t seen this in many places. I think you can find this concept more in LA, in the bigger cities, but not so much here. So WB’s was inspired by our travels, Europe, Tulum, but also LA. Amy and I love traveling and we love seeing what other people are doing. And we wanted to bring something here. We love Ogden. Ogden is amazing. Look at this, in what better place you have a cannabis concept.
Chris Holifield:
You mentioned you have a couple restaurants in Salt Lake, or one restaurant in Salt Lake, Pig and a Jelly Jar.
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
Pig and a Jelly Jar, yeah.
Chris Holifield:
Have you thought about trying to make it more cannabis-friendly, kind of like how you’re doing this one, or doing something similar to this one in Salt Lake? Or are you kind of keeping this an Ogden special.
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
We wanted to keep this is Ogden and WB’s specifically. If we were to open a WB’s location in Salt Lake, then we would bring that. But it just fits with the brand. Pig is more southern comfort food.
Chris Holifield:
Oh, it’s great, great location. Love it.
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
Yeah, it’s amazing, it’s fun. I’m sure it would fit well, but I think it’s more of a signature of WB’s Eatery, because we have a white label CBD. And we have we have bong vases here for sale that, it’s the bud vase. And they look beautiful. It looks like a piece of the core, but it’s actually a bong.
Chris Holifield:
I didn’t even see that. I’ll have to look around for this.
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
We have them for sale throughout the restaurant, I’ll grab a few. But we have a stash box. So if you look through our market, you will see that we have a little bit of cannabis-related products. We have stash boxes that we have, we have trays. We just want to help the community. We believe in cannabis and we’re excited that it’s here. And I know that it has helped Amy a lot and it helps a lot of other people. So we think it’s important and we just want to embrace it. And that’s why we brought the community together. This is an education and alliance night.
Chris Holifield:
And you do these once a month, the Weed Social?
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
Once a month.
Chris Holifield:
Once a month, okay.
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
Yeah, it’s the third…
Tim Pickett:
Third Wednesday-
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
Is this the third or the last Wednesday of the month?
Tim Pickett:
That’s a great-
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
I’m lost, it’s the last-
Tim Pickett:
I think it’s the third Wednesday or is it the last Wednesday of the month?
Chris Holifield:
Follow you on social media and I’m sure they can-
Tim Pickett:
And ooh, I can smell the smoke-
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
Can you smell the smoke-
Tim Pickett:
From the Acapulco smoke. Now, that is not, let’s just be clear, that is not weed down there they’re burning.
Chris Holifield:
I like how you have to make that kind of like known like, you better let people know.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, I’ve got to make that known. Well I would say, oh, I see a guy down there with a lighter and a smoker. That is not cannabis.
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
No, those are chips that we have properly for food.
Tim Pickett:
I think, at this point, I’d know the difference in smell.
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
We have a book. I don’t know if we sold all of them, but there’s a book that is Scratch and Sniff, and it’s all about cannabis.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, really?
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
It has different strains… Yeah, Amy buys everything that you see here. She’s a fantastic buyer and she has so much fun buying it. But one of them, we were just like scratching, we’re like, smell this one. It’s pretty fun if you just go through the book. I’ll see if I can find one and I’ll let you take a look at it-
Chris Holifield:
A Scratch and Sniff cannabis book, I love that. Anything else we want to ask her while we have her up here, Tim?
Tim Pickett:
I mean, I think everybody should come up here to WB’s, whether you’re here tonight or not. WB’s Eatery in Ogden, the address is 455 25th Street. You need to make the trip up here.
Chris Holifield:
Oh, it’s worth it, it’s worth it.
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
No, thank you. We love it here. We welcome everyone. The first Sunday of each month, we have a drag brunch, which is Wigs and Brunch. And then the third Friday of the month, we have a jazz band. And then the last Wednesday of the month we have Weed Social, so come up here. We have wine on tap, we have a market with drinks, we have lattes, we have amazing dry cocktails and alcoholic cocktails, amazing food. So yeah, come on and hash out with your best buds.
Chris Holifield:
How far away is the nearest pharmacy, the nearest cannabis pharmacy?
Tim Pickett:
Now, from here-
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, I’m just curious.
Tim Pickett:
Somebody down there will know. How far away is Perfect Earth from here, that’s the closest pharmacy?
Speaker 5:
Two or three miles [inaudible 00:15:20]-
Tim Pickett:
Two, three miles south-
Chris Holifield:
So not far. So come up to Perfect Earth-
Tim Pickett:
Couple of patients down there shouting out, two or three miles south.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, go there and then come here and get some coffee or…
Tim Pickett:
Get some dry cocktails after you’ve visited the pharmacy.
Chris Holifield:
Love it.
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
Yes.
Tim Pickett:
Or you can go north and see Mindy up in Brigham city, that would be the next one up north. Thank you so much for having us out here. I think we’ll take a little-
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, take a little break-
Tim Pickett:
… take a little break-
Chris Holifield:
… and chat with somebody else next here.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Chris Holifield:
Awesome.
Vivi Wanderley-Britt:
Cool, thank you.
Chris Holifield:
So Cole, come on. Get up close to that microphone there, buddy. Let’s chat. Let someone talk to you about this event.
Cole Fullmer:
Well, here I am.
Chris Holifield:
Bring that up, with how loud the background, I want that just kind of close so you’ll feel like you’re talking to me.
Cole Fullmer:
I need it right on my face.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, right there, right there. So Cole, the guy behind salt lake’s, or, salt lakes, Salt Baked-
Cole Fullmer:
B-A-K-E-D, yes, pun intended, right?
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. So how long ago did you start this Weed Social? Because this is kind of an event you started, right?
Cole Fullmer:
You know, this is our second one.
Chris Holifield:
Okay, for some reason I thought you’ve been doing it for a while.
Cole Fullmer:
Our first Weed Social was on 4/20 last month. It’s been a work-in-progress. This has been a great thing though. The main idea behind it is getting the cannabis industry and those involved together under one roof. We had this program start last year. And unfortunately, a month later COVID happened. And everybody’s been busy working, getting their various pharmacies, grows, clinics, what have you, started. But we haven’t been together. So now that the world’s turning back on, this is a great opportunity for us to get to know each other, frankly.
Chris Holifield:
Is that kind of what you’re hoping from it, it’s just a giant networking event really. Just kind of a way for people to just, no really other agenda, just to get to know each other and hang out?
Cole Fullmer:
Yep, just break bread, have drinks and talk about the green future. We were doing this, I met Tim at the Access Salt Lake meetings that we were doing monthly with the City Weekly-
Tim Pickett:
Remember those meetings we also had at, we did those Access meetings and then there was a hemp group-
Cole Fullmer:
Right, down in the…
Tim Pickett:
The Max, the club-
Cole Fullmer:
Right yeah, at the barber shop, club. Yeah, we had one of those, I think and then bam, COVID hit. Again with our program, we started up March. First dispensary, Dragonfly Wellness, opened March 2nd. I can’t think of how many weeks after that we were put into quarantine, I think four weeks.
Chris Holifield:
Pretty quickly, pretty quickly-
Tim Pickett:
I want to say it was about the 17th of my calendar-
Cole Fullmer:
Weed was deemed essential though, in the state. So we have that going for us. But again, with the program started, we’re a small group. The cannabis industry in Utah is tiny, and I love that. Luxury that I’ve gotten with Salt Baked City is getting to meet everybody in the industry. Whether they’re growers, pharmacy operators, bud tenders, you name it. And without being far-fetched, it’s probably been the joy in my life. Lifetime friends all in this past year, when I shouldn’t have been making friends, during COVID.
Chris Holifield:
You should have been stuck in your house, Cole.
Cole Fullmer:
I should have been and I was, but I was interviewing people like you guys were doing over Zoom and whatever we could do over the phone. Getting on certain field trips that we could to the grows to keep bringing the news, because although the world was turned off, it didn’t mean that the news was done with the cannabis industry. And it was our first year, so there was a lot to report. A lot of grand openings, a lot of new jobs popping up. And what’s not so funny to me is you watch local news now and nobody’s talking about the 3500 some odd jobs that medical cannabis created in Utah this past year, when everybody was laying other people off.
Chris Holifield:
That’s awesome.
Cole Fullmer:
We’re not only helping people, but now we’re helping the state in a time of need. So medical cannabis saves the day, right?
Chris Holifield:
You have another magazine coming out here like in a month or so, or two months or how soon here?
Cole Fullmer:
Actually, very soon. My team and I, we’re, only half of us are here tonight, because the other half are working. We’re building the magazine this week. We should be done probably tomorrow, Friday. So we’re aiming for a distribution at the beginning of June. So our second magazine-
Chris Holifield:
I’ll keep an eye out for that, yeah-
Cole Fullmer:
… Again, we’re a quarterly, so we’re popping out every three months. We do have some special things in the works for June in July. We have a lot of grand openings. Bloc Pharmacy is opening Friday, this Friday the 28th in South Jordan.
Chris Holifield:
[crosstalk 00:20:14] this episode launch, that was up, it’ll be up this Friday-
Tim Pickett:
That’s right. It will be open, and that’s on 103rd South, just west of I-15. You get off the 106th South exit, go west, take a right, right along that frontage road in the business complex. And it’s right there, about 103rd South.
Chris Holifield:
Well, that’s a great location, I’m going to have to check that out. Bloc you said?
Tim Pickett:
Bloc Pharmacy. Also, they have a pharmacy in St. George, that will be opening soon.
Cole Fullmer:
Next week, I believe.
Tim Pickett:
And I was down in Cedar City and St. George over the past few days, talking with Bloom Medicinal as well. They’re working really hard down there to open hopefully by June 1st, on Tuesday, down there in Cedar. So that will give us, Chris, the entire gamut of 14 medical cannabis pharmacies in Utah, they’ll all be open.
Chris Holifield:
I’m eager to see if they’ll actually be able to supply all the patients, like they say they will be. Once all the growers, once all the pharmacies-
Cole Fullmer:
Not right now, our last field trip at Wasatch Extraction, we were talking with the owner, Steve, Fruit of Life.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Cole Fullmer:
These processors are fighting to get 30, 40 pounds a month, when in reality they need 400 in order to do the work that they want to do, operate as a medical cannabis company as they’d like to. The program gets a lot of, I’m trying to think of the right words, the program gets beat up, because we don’t have the products out right now. But in my mind’s eye, from the media’s point of view, we have the perfect problem. We have far more demand than we have supply, because people are actually signing up for this program. We’re about to reach 30,000 patients. It’s only been the first year, the state was calling that we’d have maybe 10,000 at this point, when they were laughing at us about medical cannabis. Now, that St. George, Cedar City are opening up, we expect these numbers to double in the next year.
Chris Holifield:
And once all those college students come back.
Cole Fullmer:
Yeah, right?
Tim Pickett:
Right? Down in Cedar city and Dixie, and life opening back up to events and people talking about this more. I mean, we find in the clinics that COVID has kept information quarantined as well.
Cole Fullmer:
It has.
Chris Holifield:
What do you mean by that? Information-
Tim Pickett:
Because I think we tend to read information that we already know about, we already like. Social media feeds us what we’re already used to. And so now that things are opening up, I think that the word will get out even more.
Chris Holifield:
Because we’ll be able to have events like this, versus just what’s on Facebook, just what they’re pumping out in front of you. Because of that algorithm.
Cole Fullmer:
And they’re just people even driving by right now on 25th Street, looking at our green cross on the window there. And the reason they’re looking is because they don’t think it’s supposed to be there. Why the magazine gets a lot of eyes on it, is because a lot of people don’t think it’s supposed to be there.
Chris Holifield:
Oh, they’re talking about weed-
Cole Fullmer:
20% of our population right now in Utah, and this is my guestimation, doesn’t know that medical cannabis is legal. So it’s my job and your guys’ job to let the public know. Unfortunately, local media isn’t doing that. You guys will probably agree, we get to see the same 10, 15 minute or second splurts on there maybe every other month.
Tim Pickett:
Right, they put out an article when a pharmacy opens. That might be a news story for half a day and then it’s gone.
Cole Fullmer:
Yeah, not even with every pharmacy. I remember Perfect Earth up here was on Fox 13, Channel 4, KSL. Not long after that, Wholesome Co opened and crickets. Nobody from the local media showed up except from Salt Baked City. And it makes me kind of wonder why.
Chris Holifield:
Well, why do you think it is?
Cole Fullmer:
Because it doesn’t sell, for them.
Chris Holifield:
You don’t think so, no?
Cole Fullmer:
No, it does for me. And it seems clear for people like you and I that it does, but…
Tim Pickett:
But we are still a small segment of the marketplace.
Cole Fullmer:
There’s a reason why City Weekly hasn’t started a weed magazine. And frankly, they’ve been ingrained into the community for over two decades, three decades. And frankly, they would lose more than they would gain by the amount of people they would piss off supporting cannabis. My job is breaking the stigma. Cannabis still isn’t popular in Utah. We’re having events like this, but don’t get me wrong, it’s not popular in Utah with the general public, if you look at everybody collectively. So that’s my job through the education, news, breaking the stigma to make patients that are showing up here tonight feel comfortable to go out into the rest of the world and talk about what they do.
Chris Holifield:
Over the last year of doing Salt Baked City, have you seen that stigma crumble? Have you seen that wall kind of coming down? A lot over even just last year?
Cole Fullmer:
That’s a great question. I’d like to think that I have. But it’s still early. We’re early in our first year. But what’s encouraging for me is, I don’t have to explain what Salt Baked City is anymore. Or not as often.
Chris Holifield:
Sure.
Cole Fullmer:
People have heard of us, they’re following us. So that means we’re doing something right, we’re feeding the news to an audience now. The stigma will change, it will in the next year or so. But again, that’s going to be up to us. The reason I started Salt Baked City, is because nobody was doing it, and it needed to be done. And it’s why you guys started the podcast. And same with your clinic. And I don’t want to sound like a pioneer, but we kind of are.
Tim Pickett:
Absolutely.
Cole Fullmer:
Somebody’s got to do it, right?
Tim Pickett:
I think it’s hard. We’ve talked to a lot of people, we’ve even talked to JD Lauritzen, who I see down there. And we’ve talked to Mindy Madeo, as well, people that we see here. This community, really, it was scary in the beginning to go out in the middle of the road and say, hey, I’m for medical cannabis. I’m going to help you find out more about this, about the program. That’s a scary thing in a state like Utah. So I get it.
Cole Fullmer:
You had to kind of say this stuff under your breath, with a hush, when you were talking about cannabis. It’s still weird to say cannabis and Utah in the same sentence.
Chris Holifield:
I think I’d even talked about this on the podcast, back in the day, if you wore a shirt with a pot leaf, it’s like…
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, [crosstalk 00:27:12] that’s right-
Chris Holifield:
… worried the police were going to get me, or something. And look at you, Tim, I mean, you’ve got a marijuana leaf right there on your shirt.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, I’ve got the Utahmarijuana.org T-shirt on-
Chris Holifield:
And are you nervous to wear that?
Tim Pickett:
Not at all. In fact, I think I went to a school, I kind of accidentally wore my marijuana mask to one of the school events that I went to. And my son reminded me afterwards, “Dad, I thought you were supposed to turn that inside out?”
Chris Holifield:
It’s a pretty discreet mask though.
Tim Pickett:
I feel like it is, but apparently it’s not, if you’re not somebody who’s in our community.
Chris Holifield:
Well, that’s my question for you. I’m not put in the position that you are Tim, I don’t have kids. But I think in the future, right now, you’ve got kids that are all…
Tim Pickett:
12 and 15. So I have a 15-year-old daughter and a 12-year-old son.
Chris Holifield:
Does the 12-year-old daughter not get invited to certain birthday parties because of what you do?
Tim Pickett:
No, as a matter of fact, in the beginning, my kids don’t go out and say what I do. It’s not public knowledge. But my daughter came home a couple of months ago and said, “Well, Dad, the word’s out. My friends know what you do.”
Chris Holifield:
My dad’s a pot doctor.
Tim Pickett:
And it was okay. My daughter explains it like, I take care of people who need medical marijuana as medicine.
Chris Holifield:
And I love that.
Tim Pickett:
I take care of people, just like I did before-
Chris Holifield:
But that’s what you do, it’s a beautiful thing.
Tim Pickett:
And that’s what the program is about. It’s not about the weed, so much is it’s about people-
Chris Holifield:
The people-
Tim Pickett:
… who need access to something they haven’t had in order to feel better. We talk a lot about the plant, marijuana, weed, ganja, whatever you call it. But it comes down to the person who just wants to feel better. They just want to live a lifestyle that is free, that helps them… yeah. And so that’s, I think, what we’re doing. That’s what makes it easier to wear the mask at the school. And it makes it easier for my kids to explain the Instagram feed. And that’s okay, that’s what I want to do.
Chris Holifield:
I love it.
Cole Fullmer:
That’s encouraging to hear. Because frankly, it’s going to take the youth to push us over, or up to the top.
Chris Holifield:
I guess we need to get on Tik Tok because that’s where the youth is-
Tim Pickett:
I know, that’s where all this happens. Do they suppress Tik Tok for weed, like they do Facebook?
Chris Holifield:
I don’t know-
Cole Fullmer:
They do-
Chris Holifield:
Do they?
Cole Fullmer:
Yeah, cannabis is not, it’s frowned upon on Tik Tok.
Chris Holifield:
Do you have a Tik Tok for Salt Baked on there?
Cole Fullmer:
We do, yeah. That’s why I need kids, so they could show me how to use all the different social media features that Salt Baked City has. But we’re found on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Tik Tok, YouTube. I don’t know.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, yeah. Well, this is exciting. I’m glad that you’re sponsoring events Cole. We are happy to come out and talk to you every time, because they’re just so fun.
Cole Fullmer:
Oh, I love it.
Tim Pickett:
And things change. Every time we talk to you, it’s something new.
Cole Fullmer:
It’s unbelievable, now that the world’s turning on. And looking at life, how it was before medical cannabis in Utah. But these events are needed. I have friends and they have friends that have been traveling out of state to experience the medicine and the culture that it brings along with it. I’m trying to start these events, so we don’t have to hop in the car and go do it.
Chris Holifield:
And are you looking to do more events like this, like all over in Utah, or just kind of more here?
Cole Fullmer:
Shades Brewery is one of our sponsors as well-
Chris Holifield:
That’s right, you were talking about that, yeah-
Cole Fullmer:
… so they want us to have some parties at their taproom downtown. We have our magazine release party at Good Grammar on June 13th.
Chris Holifield:
Okay.
Cole Fullmer:
God willing, we get the magazine out.
Chris Holifield:
June 13th, okay.
Cole Fullmer:
June 13th. That’s a Sunday and it’s the weekend before Father’s Day weekend, and the weekend after pride weekend. So we should be open for a good time. We’ll be participating in pride, downtown farmer’s market, the Park Silly Market in Park City, trying to become VIP sponsors of Ogden Twilight. And really, the main idea of being out at these events is to let people know sadly, that medical cannabis is legal in the state. But then if they want to find out more, we’re here. And that’s why I want you guys out everywhere we go, because I need the help with the education. We’re just passing out magazines. I need my friends and family with me to make this thing actually work, right?
Chris Holifield:
Exactly. I mean without us, it’s like there’s no you. Without us, there’s no you. How can people find you Cole, online? Just Saltbakedcity.com, I guess you were already mentioned on all the social medias-
Cole Fullmer:
Saltbakedcity.com, Salt Baked City, yeah. It’s easy, nobody claimed the name Salt Baked City. So if you type that in anywhere, you should find us.
Chris Holifield:
Awesome.
Cole Fullmer:
Again, the names catching on. I pushed the boundaries a little bit with Salt Baked City the name, but frankly, I think it was fun. And…
Tim Pickett:
It is fun. And I think the title of what you’re doing makes sense to people. If it turns somebody off in the beginning, it doesn’t take too long for that curiosity to come back. And even though I get it, it’s the same thing as us, utahmarijuana.org. It’s, look, we’re using terms that people aren’t used to hearing, but that’s okay.
Cole Fullmer:
It is, it’s the reason why we’re creating the dank dictionary. A lot of people don’t know what cannabinoids are, terpenes, the entourage effect. So a lot like links that you find in online articles, that will take you to another article. This will actually take you to the dictionary. So you’ll see some of our words highlighted in our online work. And that’s mostly to help educate. We have a new language that… well, not new for maybe us, but for majority of Utah, it’s a bunch of new words. And they’re all pretty dank.
Chris Holifield:
Always good to chat with you, Cole.
Cole Fullmer:
Yeah.
Chris Holifield:
Anything else you want to ask him while we have him up here?
Tim Pickett:
No, thanks again, Cole.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, we’ll let you get back-
Cole Fullmer:
No, this has been a fun charity-
Chris Holifield:
… to your bites.
Cole Fullmer:
And get back to the party, man.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, it looks like right now they’re serving the prosciutto wrapped asparagus. Is that what we’re getting next?
Cole Fullmer:
I’m getting one of those non-alcoholic Margaritas.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, you are?
Cole Fullmer:
That’s what I’m going to get. I really like the concept that they’re doing here with the non-alcoholic drinks.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, I had that Acapulco Smoke.
Cole Fullmer:
How was it?
Tim Pickett:
It was really good. And it has, Vivi was describing it. I described it as having a little bit of a bite, like an alcoholic drink. I expect that bite, that alcohol bite to it. And it still had that bite. And she described it as depth.
Cole Fullmer:
I spoke about it briefly in my editorial, in our first issue. I don’t drink anymore, and I haven’t for seven years, for good reason. Just another reason how cannabis has saved my life. Amy and Vivi here at WB eatery turned me on to the zero proof alcohol. And so now when you walk into my house, I have all these various alcohols that are not alcohols. But the kicker is next to them, I have the various tinctures for the cannabinoids. So you have CBD, CBG Delta 8, Delta 9, THC. Next to that is the cannabis-derived terpenes. So if you come over to my house, you don’t have a whiskey sour, you have a whiskey sour diesel. And you can drive home afterwards too, maybe. Maybe, depending on the milligrams.
Tim Pickett:
Boom, okay, you just blew my mind, Cole. A whisky sour diesel-
Cole Fullmer:
Yeah, a real proper paunch.
Tim Pickett:
A real… well, yes.
Chris Holifield:
Are people doing this? Is there bars that are doing… I mean, this is a great idea.
Cole Fullmer:
It’s a tough thing right now. I was in Vegas last week, I think. Yeah, last week, hanging out at our buddy’s restaurant Wing King. Yeah, it’s the first CBD-infused restaurant, pretty much anywhere. They might be doing it a little bit in California, but we need to pull JD Lauritzen up here for this conversation, because I don’t really know. But the trick on having open consumption-
Tim Pickett:
No, he’s given us the, you cannot consume cannabis in public at all. As a matter of fact, he’s going to nod his head at this next statement, unless it is, I think it is stated as a terminally emergent event, like you’ve got to be dying.
Cole Fullmer:
It does, but you know-
Tim Pickett:
Emergency medical condition, he screams up at me.
Chris Holifield:
To be able to consume in-person.
Tim Pickett:
I love that guy.
Cole Fullmer:
I’m having one right now.
Tim Pickett:
To consume it in public. Yeah, we’ve got a lot of work to do with the statute, before we get to-
Cole Fullmer:
Yeah, but you’ll notice why I don’t go too far without JD Lauritzen with me.
Tim Pickett:
No, of course, nobody does. Nobody in this industry goes very far without that guy.
Cole Fullmer:
The doctor would agree, every good writer needs a good lawyer. And JD, he’s a great guy to have around. Not only for the legal advice, but he’s a great friend too.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Chris Holifield:
Absolutely.
Tim Pickett:
And look for, he had an article in the first-
Cole Fullmer:
He does, and he has another one coming out in the next issue. Beginning of the month, he’s breaking down all the legislative updates that we’ve had for the medical cannabis program, talking about the 15th pharmacy. Again, we’ve had so much happen on Capitol Hill, it’s hard for even me to keep up with. That’s why I’ve got to call JD sometimes on the daily, to…
Chris Holifield:
Well, and that’s why it’s important for people to keep up on your magazine and for people to keep up on this podcast. And for people to even come to events like this, to stay up-to-date on what’s going when you’re in Utah-
Tim Pickett:
Exactly right. If you want to know what’s going on in the cannabis space, then you’ve got to get involved. You’ve got to pay attention, because it moves pretty fast.
Cole Fullmer:
It’s the higher content, right?
Tim Pickett:
Yep.
Chris Holifield:
Let’s let Cole go get that drink, though.
Cole Fullmer:
Cool, thanks guys.
Tim Pickett:
Have a good night, Cole.
Chris Holifield:
Thanks buddy.
Chris Holifield:
We’re going to get going here. We’re going to…
Marley Colt:
Hey.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, it sounds like it’s coming through there. So next, remind me your name again.
Tim Pickett:
Marley.
Chris Holifield:
Marley, that’s right.
Marley Colt:
Marley.
Chris Holifield:
Marley Colt.
Marley Colt:
C-O-L-T-
Tim Pickett:
Marley Colt…
Chris Holifield:
From Kind… well, Kind Buds is what I want to find out about, but she’s…
Tim Pickett:
Yes, and…
Chris Holifield:
Tim Pickett:
Human Nature-
Chris Holifield:
… and Wellness, where she works with Dr. Anden.
Tim Pickett:
Yes, and we’ve talked to Dr. Anden before. And Dr. Anden is kind of a pillar of medical knowledge when it comes to cannabis. Very good physician. Pain is her specialty, primarily. Has had a very successful career in pain and…
Marley Colt:
Sports medicine.
Tim Pickett:
Sports medicine.
Chris Holifield:
Pull that microphone just a little bit closer-
Tim Pickett:
And now has a-
Chris Holifield:
… There we go, [crosstalk 00:38:34] much background noise we have here-
Tim Pickett:
… Definitely one of the first to get into the medical cannabis space. And that has a lot to do with you, I know.
Marley Colt:
Yeah, yeah, it does.
Tim Pickett:
Bring us up to speed on what you guys are doing. But I really want to get into this Kind Buds thing, because it’s awesome.
Marley Colt:
So long story short, Dr. Anden’s been a sports medicine specialist in Ogden for about 32 years. I’ve worked with her for the past 10 years. In March 2019, we started Utah Medical Cannabis Evaluations. She’s always been an advocate for cannabis, me as well. If patients use it, it was don’t ask, don’t tell sort of thing. She already had all of this knowledge before cannabis was medically legalized in Utah. So we were really confident in seeing patients. We knew it wasn’t going to harm them, it only helped them. And we really wanted to be one of the first. So we started that in March 2019. And that’s grown over the last two years, we’ve hired employees, we’ve hired a couple of PAs to help us work with us.
Marley Colt:
In about April, we rebranded to Human Nature, Medical and Wellness. And it’s kind of the first clinic to offer Eastern and Western medicine, modern and holistic options, traditional and alternative options. So we educate on sports medicine, physical medicine and rehab, [inaudible 00:40:06] heal after an injury. But we also cover the naturopathic holistic options, herbs, herbal mushrooms, cannabis. And so everything should be included in your treatment program. And that’s where Human Nature came from.
Tim Pickett:
That’s cool. And that clinic is in South Ogden?
Marley Colt:
We’re at the Northern Utah Rehab Hospital in South Ogden.
Tim Pickett:
Awesome.
Chris Holifield:
Tell us about Kind Buds because this really intrigued me and perked my ears, because I’m a sucker for creating a business out of a necessity. And this is a necessity. I mean, I don’t know why I never thought about this. Because I could even see somebody like my mom taking advantage of something like this. She’s what, in her ’70s, and she she’s never smoked.
Marley Colt:
Right, never inhaled, is how we like to say it, never inhaled.
Chris Holifield:
So tell us about it. I mean, you and I talked about this, but let’s talk about it for listeners and for people listening.
Marley Colt:
So Kind Buds Cannabis Coaching was created in January 2021. It was mostly because somebody needed an option in between the doctor’s office and the pharmacy. So patients were coming to see us, they’re spending whatever amount of money, they’re spending an hour with us, they leave, they go get their medicine, they talk to the pharmacist, they’re still overwhelmed. They don’t remember anything that we’ve talked about. And they get home, they don’t want to waste their medicine. So they might not use it, they might use a little bit. We’ve seen people six months later that haven’t even touched their medicine-
Tim Pickett:
Or they use it and then they get high and then they’re uncomfortable-
Marley Colt:
Right, they have a bad time.
Tim Pickett:
They use it maybe three weeks later, and then that’s it.
Marley Colt:
Yeah, and the same thing that gave them a bad high once, gave them a bad… well, bad or just side effects-
Tim Pickett:
Right, they build up no tolerance, they don’t know how to use it-
Marley Colt:
… side effects per se, right. But then they don’t want to go back to the pharmacy and say, I didn’t like this. They feel wrong or something.
Chris Holifield:
Well, it’s even intimidating too. I mean, it’s a little-
Marley Colt:
Yeah, right. It’s even intimidating for me still, to go in the pharmacies.
Chris Holifield:
Sure.
Marley Colt:
So I started like a year ago just offering to come to people’s houses, and/or they can call me, video chat, and we can kind of talk. But over the last few months, I have about 10 patients I’ve gone to their home. And they’ve never been impaired. They’ve never inhaled their entire lives. And they were really, really afraid and nervous and all those things. So just sat down at their kitchen counter or on their couch and taught them how to grind their flower in a grinder, taught them how to load their vaporizer and then proceeded to teach them how to inhale cannabis. And I never thought that that would happen. I never thought that that would happen.
Tim Pickett:
So before we were talking about how, a lot of times I feel like I’m a person who teaches people, I’ve even been told, oh, you just teach people how to smoke weed for a living, right. But you literally teach people how to inhale, not smoke, because we’re in Utah. But you literally teach people how to use it.
Marley Colt:
Yeah, it’s a trippy thing, even for me.
Chris Holifield:
Well yeah, because you probably even have to kind of help them through their first time. Like even the way they feel. It’s like, okay just sit and be calm. Don’t get too excited.
Marley Colt:
And when they do first get their hit, a few people have done the same thing where they kind of close their eyes and shift their shoulders and they reach their arms out, like they feel it in their fingertips. They close their eyes and they’re like, this is nice, this is really nice. And they’re kind of touching their fingertips together. And we kind of just wait and see. But yeah, it’s basically teaching people to smoke weed. But I also educate them and help them. It’s awesome.
Chris Holifield:
It’s probably modified to each patient too. Because it’s hard to say, well, this is exactly what I do. Because each person probably has a different necessity, or a different thing what they need help with.
Tim Pickett:
What was it like the first time you went to somebody’s house, and you actually sat down with them? You’re sitting across the table from them, you’ve got the-
Marley Colt:
I totally wanted to record the whole experience. I wanted to set up my phone. But they’re medical patients, they probably anybody to know.
Tim Pickett:
So this is essentially, not technically under HIPAA, but because of the relationship that you have with them. But this is a very private moment for somebody. But also for you, I mean, was it scary sitting there teaching them this? Did you feel like a dealer?
Marley Colt:
For me, no. Because of where I work and the patients that I’ve seen, and the fact that I use it myself. It actually came across just very resonating and very simple. I was really nervous and then I was like, oh, I literally teach you to put this flower in the grinder, and then you grab it out of it with your little fingers like I do every day. So it was actually, once I officially started, it was really surreal. I definitely thought of my high school teachers and people that made fun of me for smoking or using it in high school. And just thought, wow, I’m going to change his life. I’m going to change.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, I’m getting paid to teach somebody something that they were…
Marley Colt:
Yes. That literally nobody else will teach him.
Tim Pickett:
My mind is blown again.
Marley Colt:
Literally nobody else. And it’s just why I’m a good person for this, is just I’m so comfortable with cannabis. I’m secure with using it and I am a full responsible adult, and still use cannabis. And I feel like that comes across to the patients. They don’t feel me being anxious or nervous or paranoid or scared, because I don’t want them to feel any of those feelings their first time, I suppose. I want to keep it as positive, as happy…
Chris Holifield:
For people that haven’t used it, and again, I know it’s hard to really go into depth. I mean, we don’t want to really give out… But what are they thinking is going to happen, I guess? Are they nervous something’s going to happen…
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, what are the questions that you get right before that first inhale?
Chris Holifield:
Are they afraid they’re going to…
Marley Colt:
They do think that they’re going to hallucinate sometimes. Even if they know ultimately, they’re not going to hallucinate, they think something might happen with that first head rush. But that is specific to patients that have never been impaired before, never taken any kind of… some of them have taken strong opioids, some of them have not. Some people have never had a beer or any alcohol, they’ve never really had caffeine.
Chris Holifield:
So they don’t know what to expect at all with anything-
Marley Colt:
They have no idea, they have no idea. And they-
Tim Pickett:
They have never been altered, like never had that head change from alcohol, never had the head change from THC. Do you feel like you’re learning what your perfect person is, what your perfect customer or consumer or patient looks like?
Marley Colt:
No, I really, really like working with the beginners. Anybody that seems to know something, wants to go back to the way that they learned how to originally smoke weed and use cannabis. So I do like the beginners that haven’t been, I guess, overwhelmed with all of our other education and recommendations for cannabis. So the beginners are really, really fun. And they’re really patient. If they’ve invited me over into their house, they’ve already gotten into that mindset, this is going to happen. But they like having a partner, a buddy, a team member. But it’s even progressed from that, we use the cannabis and they say, is it working? I don’t know if it’s working. So then I don’t want to make them take another hit or rip right away, so I went and watched Fresh Prince of Bel Air on her couch with her for like 30 minutes. And she did, she paid me for that extra time.
Marley Colt:
But then she looked over at me like 15, 20 minutes later and she’s like, “I feel really nice.” She’s like, “I could sit here all night.” And normally she was only able to sit, stand, walk maybe 20, 30 minutes at a time. So it was noticeable for her. We just waited a few extra minutes, and I literally just watched TV with her.
Tim Pickett:
But you’re providing somebody who doesn’t have this otherwise. I mean, imagine a family who, they’ve got nobody in the family, Utah is full of families that are conservative, they’ve never had any experience with alcohol or THC at all. And you’re providing not only that specific education, that specific teaching, but you’re also providing that support.
Marley Colt:
I’m also your kind bud. I’m just your bud.
Tim Pickett:
You provide the specific education and that support system, you’re able to set expectations. Do you find that you’re teaching people to get a therapeutic dose, or you’re just teaching people how to use it. And then they’re probably going to find that therapeutic dose later.
Marley Colt:
I definitely let them know that they can find their therapeutic dose themselves. They don’t need me to guide them. But if they do want somebody to just help them, then I’m there for them. But they do get specific recommendations, like one to two puffs in the morning or evening, or this or that from Dr. Anden and [Christa 00:49:37]. So a lot of people that I’ve seen right now are patients we’ve seen in the office with cannabis cards. So a new unique thing is I have had two patients that don’t have cannabis cards, reach out to me. And it’s more, they want to learn if they qualify for the card. They don’t want to pay the fee for the card to see the doctor, until they get the education.
Marley Colt:
So they want me to come and educate them before they go and get a card. And I don’t know if they’ve inhaled or not, but that’s just kind of a whole nother clientele of people that don’t know where to go or where to start. And they can just text me, they can message me, I’ve got simple fees, or we can start a subscription. $10 a month, you call me whenever you want. But yeah, I’m getting a lot of people that don’t even have cards yet, that are interested in my educational services.
Tim Pickett:
Wow. How do people get ahold of you? How do people find you?
Marley Colt:
Right now, I do have @kindbudscoach on Instagram. Kindbudscoach.com is about to launch any day now. But usually they’ll get in contact with me through Human Nature Medical and Wellness, Dr. Anden’s office. They say, someone works with Dr. Anden, she’s awesome, call her. And they kind of get a hold of me through the office. But yeah, word is spreading. I’m getting some random emails, some random text messages. People want me to come. I’ve got a little family, I’ve got two daughters and a mom and a grandma that all want me to come over and teach them all together.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, would you do what kind of a-
Chris Holifield:
Cannabis party.
Marley Colt:
Yeah-
Tim Pickett:
Like a Tupperware party, a cannabis party-
Marley Colt:
But everybody bring their own flower, I suppose. You use your own medicine-
Tim Pickett:
Right, you use your own medicine-
Chris Holifield:
And a little bit for you, too.
Marley Colt:
I, in particular, do not inhale when I’m with these guys. Just because I’m driving afterwards, and I do want to make sure I’m helping them as best as possible. But on the note of going there, visiting with them, I’ve had a few people that have asked me to come back over and reconnect their Wi-Fi to their computer. One lady paid me an extra hour to buy her things on Etsy. Some people just need a kind bud, they just need a friend sure help them with stuff.
Chris Holifield:
Sure, that’d be great. Like a smoking buddy, right?
Marley Colt:
Right, right.
Chris Holifield:
Come over and just hang out with me-
Tim Pickett:
I mean it’s kind of like a designated driver in some ways, right?
Marley Colt:
Right. And/or they have a positive experience, they learn cannabis is great, but they can’t tell anybody about it. They can’t tell their ward, they can’t tell their family, they can’t tell their kids. So they can really-
Tim Pickett:
This is a whole different thing I didn’t think about, Chris-
Marley Colt:
… they can really vent to me. They do that in the office. I’m sure you know, patients-
Tim Pickett:
Oh, yeah. I mean, for sure.
Marley Colt:
… You finally have an honest conversation with a provider, your whole life.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, we get that all the time. Oh, you’re the first provider I’ve ever actually told, I don’t take this prescription that I’ve been prescribed for the past two years.
Marley Colt:
Yeah, kids are crazy. Kids are crazy.
Tim Pickett:
But then you’re somebody that they can open up to, they can experience this with, and they can learn the things that they might say later. Hey family, hey neighbor, I take this because it helps me feel better. This is legitimate medicine.
Marley Colt:
It doesn’t make me blackout and turn me into an abusive person. They they can learn from experience. And yeah, it helps people to be able to talk about their feelings and what they feel when they use it, and after and before. And if you just have to keep that all inside of you, that contributes to your pain, your anxiety, your stress. And nobody should feel bad for using cannabis. Be paranoid, but don’t be paranoid because you’re using cannabis.
Tim Pickett:
What’s your fees typically? Is there a simple kind of breakdown that people can expect?
Marley Colt:
So right now, just $75 an hour, and then any groups over two is $200 for an hour, because everyone has their own conditions and their own things. But we can do a 10, 15 minute text or courtesy call. My website is kindbudscoaching, and that will be up in the next week. And depending on the person, if they just want to talk 30 minutes, we can figure out a fee. I’ve had a few older people that have paid me on Venmo and then called me. So yeah, for now, I just like helping people. And I kind of try to do it when I’m not at my job. Office manager of Human Nature. But yeah, it’s just casual right now. And if people need me, they are finding me.
Tim Pickett:
Wow. I’m really-
Chris Holifield:
And also cooking. She’ll show people how to cook with medical cannabis too, I was looking on her flyer right here-
Tim Pickett:
Oh, cool. Yeah, I’m really happy about this, because we met at least a year ago. And you had talked about this even then. And so I’m really happy for you, Marley, that this is happening. And you’re able to start doing this.
Marley Colt:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Because I could see then, you were really passionate about it.
Marley Colt:
We just didn’t have enough time in the office to tell people what they need to know. And then I feel like we’re wasting their money, if they’re not utilizing their medicine too. So yeah, it’s been awesome.
Tim Pickett:
Kindbudscoaching.com, and on Instagram it’s…
Marley Colt:
@kindbudscoach.
Tim Pickett:
Kindbudscoach.
Marley Colt:
And Marley Colt is my name-
Tim Pickett:
Marley Colt-
Chris Holifield:
I’m going to go follow that after we’re done talking.
Marley Colt:
We’ll have an ad in Salt Baked City, this next one that’s coming out. I’m putting an ad in there.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, we just talked to Cole right before you. So there we go.
Marley Colt:
Yeah, I try not to have any high expectations. Whoever needs me will call me right now. I’m hoping in two to three years, we will have been a certified cannabis coach for three years and who knows the things that that will bring.
Tim Pickett:
That is awesome.
Chris Holifield:
Let’s bring Marley back on. We’ll have to do a catch up, right? A couple months down the road-
Tim Pickett:
Absolutely-
Marley Colt:
Yeah, I’m down. I’m totally down.
Chris Holifield:
Awesome. Well, thanks for chatting with us tonight Marley-
Marley Colt:
Yeah, thank you very much.
Chris Holifield:
Thank you so much.
Chris Holifield:
It’s as if you named the restaurant after yourself.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
After my wonderful wife, who was crazy enough to ask me to marry her, and I was like, “Are you sure?”
Chris Holifield:
How long have you guys been married?
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
Four years. I was like, oh, crap, I forgot. Because we just keep a running total.
Chris Holifield:
Sure.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
We celebrate every month, every second. And I don’t really keep up with the years anyway. I don’t even know how old my dog is. So that’s unfortunate. I just keep rolling day by day. But about six years, I think. Vivi’s giving me a look. Six years? Whew, yup.
Tim Pickett:
You’ve been together six years?
Chris Holifield:
Awesome.
Tim Pickett:
I’m getting a thumbs up down there.
Chris Holifield:
So between the both of you, whose idea more was it for WB’s?
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
Well, Weed and Bites, the cannabis lifestyle concept. That side of this direction for the entity is definitely more me. I am a medical card carrying patient, proud of it. It’s been the only thing that’s ever helped me with my anxiety and depression. And I’m really big on what we’re doing here, which is our industry, meet and greet, an alliance and an education. Because there’s so much misnomer out there, for myself included, a redneck from the South. Party on the riverbed every weekend, drinking. And if you smoked cannabis, it was like, nah, I’m an Alpha Delta Kappa, and you smoke cannabis? And then even when I got to college, it just didn’t, you were always drinking. It wasn’t a thing. And I don’t know, I’m a big fan of cannabis instead, if you’re going to recreate, I’ll tell you that. And I’m still medicate, not recreate.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, now here at WB’s, the vibe, it’s not head shop, it’s-
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
Lifestyle.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Describe why or how that works.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
Because I’m terrified to go to a head shop. I would never have ever gone anywhere other than with a medical card and the following compliance to consume. And I think there’s a lot more of me, who has been told a story of what cannabis is, that big evil, ugh. And now I’m picking up books, we have library, we provide education. We provide all sorts of things from the, what is it? It’s the exclusivity of being inclusive for us. And cannabis is just that. It brings all walks of life together. And WB’s Eatery, it’s a perfect environment for it. I mean, the Monarch where we exist is an artist’s working space. Cannabis, artwork, music, wonderful food, cocktails. And now with the market, where you can pick up books, just hang out. The actual thing here, I’m a restaurateur, but I said, “Don’t y’all ever make me work here. This is my creative space. And don’t make me work here.” And they haven’t yet, which is why I love my team.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
But they do this. And what a fun job. You get to have education, you get to meet cool people like y’all, you get to be creative in the kitchen. And then maybe someday, when compliance shifts, we’ll be able to cook with it, which would be a really cool goal of ours.
Chris Holifield:
What’s the secret for juggling as many restaurants as you have, though? Because you have-
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
Strong teams-
Chris Holifield:
… at least what, three? How many three, four?
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
We have four concepts.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
We’re expanding, we’re rebuilding our foundation and we’re growing.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
And it was a really rough year. I don’t know if y’all know, but we had this gut in the restaurant industry. I had 100 employees and I ended up with about 20. And I had to recruit from out of state. It shifted us to an hourly paid model, from $12 to $21.50 an hour. And I am recruiting, so I apologize. But man, it sucks right now.
Chris Holifield:
No, it’s hard to get work-
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
I’m recruiting to the banker, I’m recruiting to the UPS driver, I’m like, we have benefits and we’ve changed. And when you make great change, and you just pick up an education that, I didn’t know, I was incentivized as a small business owner to keep people below living wage. I didn’t know that. And this whole thing, when you go through great change like that, we’re going to keep this lifestyle. And then now still, you get to talk about cannabis while you’re at work. What? Crazy.
Chris Holifield:
People walking down the street here in Ogden, I’m curious what, I mean I’m sure you hear feedback when you walk in, right? Like when people walk in and they look around and they’re like, wait a minute, what is this place? And then they might see a pot leaf, or they might see even your thing, potheads welcome.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, they might see a tincture for sale, the CBD, and they see the coffee shop.
Chris Holifield:
They’re like, wait, what?-
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
My bud vase.
Tim Pickett:
Your bud vase, not a bong-
Chris Holifield:
What do people say?
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
Not a bong, because you can’t do that in Utah, that’s not cool. We only vaporize, and that’s it.
Chris Holifield:
Do you hear any feedback from random people, like any thoughts?
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
I think that everybody’s still relatively confused by what we’re doing. And I still say it’s because we had a pandemic. We opened in November, we closed in March, I paid them to color positive notes to the universe on there to-go orders. And it was like, I’m going bankrupt. And now PPP loans and then having forgiven and grants, and now taking out another round of EDIL, and I’ll probably get that shit backwards, apologize. But I’m going to go in debt. And so if I’m going to go in debt, then I can’t count on just restaurants anymore. So this is the other part to WB’s Eatery. It’s multiple streams of income in here. We have CBD, aside from more than a restaurant, we’re a lifestyle. We have eCommerce, bud boxes, the things that you would want shipped to your house so that you can enjoy this lifestyle.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
And all of those are, everybody hates it, but it’s a pandemic pivot. And it’s called, we’re entrepreneurs. And we’re more than a restaurant, we’re a lifestyle. And now holding the Weed Social, I mean, wow, it’s amazing.
Tim Pickett:
Okay, now it all makes sense to me.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
Does it? Usually people are never quite in line with-
Tim Pickett:
Yes, I really think it all makes sense to me.
Chris Holifield:
It all came together for you, the pieces just-
Tim Pickett:
As somebody who started a business during the pandemic and grew the business last year during the pandemic, I get it. The multiple streams of income, this lifestyle, you’ve got the boxes, good staff and you’re having a hard time recruiting. You are on your way, I think here. I love this place. I can’t say it enough.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
It’s a vortex of positive energy, think about it.
Chris Holifield:
The only downfall is I live in Salt Lake, so it’s a little tougher for me to come to-
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
Pig Kitchen will be hosting events and doing pop-up WB’s Eatery events, specifically.
Chris Holifield:
Okay.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
And because we’re sister concepts, Pig Kitchen, located in Holiday is a food hall that we’re rebranding, basically. Moving away from Pig and a Jelly Jar, there’s a food truck novelty outside, there’s a beer garden courtyard. And now you’ll have WB’s Eatery that’ll pop up. And maybe we’ll do another Weed Social, I don’t know. But dry cocktails will be there, we’ll be bringing in our Drag Trivia, featuring [Sequoia 01:02:50] who does a show here for us also monthly. So also getting into events, not something from the restaurant world. Matter of fact, with Pig and a Jelly Jar and other concepts, I’m always like, no, I don’t cater. No, we don’t do that. It’s been so hard just to operate. And now my staff, do think I’m crazy half the time. Because I’m like, uh-uh, wait, what’s coming next? Wait, what’s coming next? And what lifestyle do you want? Because it’s not about 50 cents or $1 more a year? It can’t be. It just can’t. Because let me tell you, you can go out of business like that.
Tim Pickett:
Does your staff, when you come in and you’re like, hey, guess what we’re going to do? Guess what I changed last night? Everything. Or I added this, we’re going to do this event-
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
No, it’s more of an addition, it’s a growth. And see, that’s cool, too. It’s really a growing process. And it’s with our communication and it’s with how we develop this concept because it was grown. It did not start with the market. I laughed, I kept jumping up and down like a maniac. “We’re not a wine bar. You just wait, I can’t play with it yet. I’ll be there. We’re trying to survive.” And it was because it’s pretty. Isn’t it pretty? This was my, what do they call it? Passion project. I have a bunch of notebooks, that’s how I manifest my ideas. And they’re not ideations because each notebook is done. And this was the closest I could get to my tiny house. My wife wanted to collaborate and I was like, cool, your mom’s shimmy cheery rocks.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
And we went to Loom, it inspired sparklers and positivity and chakra realignment, which I would have told you, okay, maybe. But then to come back and see what we were working and doing to each other, I was like, we have to create something different. And even Pig and a Jelly Jar, taking all those tables and chairs out for the compliance, I’m not bringing them back. When you make great change, you do not go backwards. You can assess where you are, but then you need to look where you’re going. And that’s how we just need to talk to each other. And we do it in our hiring, we do it in our coaching and training. And now it’s the first round, so we still have a lot of that restaurant behavior that we’re working on. But we’re a team.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, I like that. I think a lot of us can learn from that, yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, it does take a great team of people to get on board. And that I can definitely attest to, this type of post COVID world and business ownership, it really takes a great team.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
It does. And I think that’s why I’ve always been successful anyway. I mean, I tell these guys openly, McDonald’s at 20, first job at 16. Now all of a sudden, I got their highest volume store and 50 employees. Because there’s a lot of this, I don’t know how to do this. There’s not a training map. And I make a joke. Yeah, this isn’t Chili’s, we’re not there yet. It’s not franchise, man. It’s a notebook. And then, oh, my goodness, look who made that chalkboard for us? How cool. And we’re just starting to grow. My wife left corporate America, same thing. I say, I need help, for one. But we need to grow. We have a legitimate thing here that if nothing else, we can have four healthy concepts and enjoy our lifestyles and so can they.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
Because restaurants are this machine that chews people up. It’s operations, it’s entry level, anything. And if you don’t see the light at the end of the tunnel, or be able to see a path that you can move forward on, I know, you’ll feel trapped by your own reality. And I hated the restaurants. And now I can work with them, I’m a little bit older. This is another thing. I’m 45, almost 46. They’re a little younger. And I’m like, I’m y’all’s moms’ age, knock it off. I’m not your mother. Now go do the dishes. See?
Tim Pickett:
It works easier than when you were 32.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
Oh, lordy no, but I know what my mom goes through. I’ll tell you what, we were pains in the behind. And these guys, we’re like four-step growth process. Four steps. Operations, creation, which is marketing, innovation, which is sales and services and our eCommerce, we have bar boxes and these lifestyle boxes. And they can get a percentage of sales in selling CBD. And the last one is ownership and investment. Why not? I have everything I possibly could want. And I almost went out of business last year. And I still could, still can happen. I almost got shot in the streets of Tulum two weeks ago, on my wife’s birthday. I actually had a gun pointed at my head. And let me tell you, when you come back and you’re like, you could get shot in the street in Tulum! We’ve got to figure out how to be kinder to each other and just enjoy what we do.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
And minimally, what lifestyle do you want? Go to Aruba. The [inaudible 01:07:24] finally took a vacation in the kitchen. Let me pay for you to take a vacation, come back. Or don’t, let’s open a business together.
Chris Holifield:
Have you always been this way?
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
Maniacal? I get maniacal a lot. Maybe, I don’t know. I don’t know, I get excited, I’m passionate. That’s why I don’t like to do a lot of interviews, because I just feel it’s a team, and show up.
Chris Holifield:
Do you ever have bad days though? Do you wake up and just be like, I’m not going to work today. Do you like, I just don’t want to do it.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
Sure, of course-
Chris Holifield:
What do you do on those days? Just stay in bed?
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
Yeah. I mean, I struggle with depression. Some days it’s hard for me to put my pants on, is what it feels like.
Chris Holifield:
And that’s when you go-
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
Cannabis has really, really been helpful.
Chris Holifield:
Sure.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
And then keeping notebooks and dosing and incorporating into my own personal lifestyle, and then attracting that energy of people who are like-minded. And again, where’s the education? There’s lots of dialogue. There’s lots of growth. And it’s not every roster, firing stone or pothead bull crap, because that wouldn’t attract me. I would actually have steered clear from that. And I think that we have an obligation to say that, we’re more than that. We’re entrepreneurs. In the industry of cannabis, in the restaurant community. And no one gets to say nothing about it. Nobody signs your paycheck. But you, if you’re an entrepreneur, right? So there’s a lot of growth process for everybody in this industry and in the restaurant industry. I think they lend themselves very much to the same people.
Tim Pickett:
Do you think that cannabis-friendly restaurants will become more popular?
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
I hope so. I think cannabis belongs right here. Right here in Ogden, I do swear it. I know in Salt Lake somewhere, somebody’s mad at me. But look at this. Look at this vibe. This is the Nine Rails Creative District. This is in the 1920s, where those good conversations were happening when people were parking their Model T’s here and having lunch and whatnot at the Ben Lomond. This is historic. And I still say this community, it needs to be revitalized in a sense that cannabis is a good fit here. And cannabis is more than all that negative association that we’ve been lied to about it. It’s just simply not true. So I hope cannabis in Ogden can form an alliance. And then minimally, be a place where you meet around the table up here once a month and we can work on a movement. Instead of compartmentalizing, which is another thing unfortunately people like to do.
Chris Holifield:
So would you like to see full blown adult recreation then? You would like to see it fully legalized?
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
Sure.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, why not?
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
I think people should be able to do whatever they want. And I think drinking is horrible, in my opinion. And our behaviors, and what we allow, and how we vilify people who do recreate with cannabis. And I think it comes down to money. And you’ll get me sounding like some political person, and I’m not. But what’s good for one needs to be good for all. And I don’t think that keeping cannabis away from people is a good idea. I think it’s quite helpful, especially when you’re talking opioids and you’re talking seven years sober. And we’re self medicating, and we’re told lifestyle and drinking and that behavior is okay. And so still here, that’s what I’m doing. I still have a ritual, I still craft our dinners and our courses with their non-alcoholic cocktails, dry cocktails. It was a research and development, because I want to be a part of the lifestyle.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
I don’t have to drink Kool Aid, just because I don’t drink your alcohol. By the way, I’m probably going to not have the same reputation I had when I was a drinker. Thank goodness, cellphones weren’t that popular, jeez.
Chris Holifield:
I know, we would have all gotten in trouble.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
I’m glad I’m old enough to have missed this, slightly. You’d have to read about me in the paper. And nobody reads that either anyway, so we’re all right. It’s going to be okay.
Chris Holifield:
Any other questions before… I mean, what’s the best way people can come in with their-
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, what’s the best way people can interact with this?
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, interact.
Tim Pickett:
With this movement, I think, that would be my question-
Chris Holifield:
Find out what’s going on and be connected to-
Tim Pickett:
How can make WB’s the center of that relationship between Ogden and cannabis-
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
Industry, alliance and education. And it’s where good conversations happen around the food industry. All good ideas come from a good meal. And now you can have your cocktail or non-alcoholic cocktail. But it’s these alliances and conversation and this networking that brings bud tenders, brings patients, brings a novice who has no idea, but just feels comfortable. Because we’re a restaurant, at the end of the day, aren’t we? I mean we’re a restaurant.
Tim Pickett:
Right, you can come, it’s-
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
You can get a cocktail, you can-
Tim Pickett:
… It’s definitely not intimidating here.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
Totally not.
Tim Pickett:
Definitely not intimidating.
Chris Holifield:
See, and I didn’t know what to expect. Tonight’s my first night here. So I didn’t know what to expect, is it going to be intimidating, is it not? Even if you’re not into cannabis, it’s a great place to come.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
I hope so. [crosstalk 01:12:00]-
Chris Holifield:
I mean, that’s what you want-
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
It’s so open to everyone. And even to do a Drag Brunch and have a Wellness Wednesday yoga class that we’re going to bring in, it is still all about cannabis. And specifically CBD for us, because we have our own CBD label. And we have our own non alcoholic cocktail book. And we’re still just enjoying the lifestyle of creativity. And anytime we can have you guys come and provide education, and if people can understand this, it’s just a place to chill. Hash out, hang out with your buds, right?
Chris Holifield:
Hang out with your real life buds and your buds in your pocket, I guess.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, congratulations.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
Thanks. I smile so big every time I come here. That’s why if I’m in a bad mood, I’m like, I don’t know. I don’t want to go and bring that energy to the space because, I’m proud. I really am.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, you should be. I mean you can tell, just talking to you, that this is really a realization of who you are.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
Yeah, it’s been a journey. And last couple years, we’re a healing process. And now, we’re growing. Because isn’t that how it works? It is. You don’t have to kill the plant, snuff it out. Sometimes you can get the plant back to a healthy state. And then it starts to bud and grow again. And I feel like we are that. And this space, it’s inclusive to everyone.
Chris Holifield:
Exactly. Well, thanks for chatting.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Thanks Amy-
Chris Holifield:
Anything else you want to add, really quick? I mean, this is going to be our last conversation-
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
Just come support these guys. I mean, restaurants need help, industry needs help, everyone needs support, come out and be kind to one another. That’s all I ask. Come and be kind and support these folks. Because where our restaurants are, we hire within our communities. And we do recruit from out of state. But I trust you, every one of them take ownership of their stores and their communities. And I think that’s another thing that’s amazing about our company.
Chris Holifield:
Exactly. So if any of our listeners need a job, reach out. There you go. It’d be a cool place to work.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
Oh, I will say one more. You ready?
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
Just on a recruiting. If you can get someone to get an interview, we’ll give you a $50 gift card. Pig and a Jelly Jar, WB’s Eatery. If they get hired and they stay six weeks, we’ll give you and them 100 bucks.
Chris Holifield:
No way.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
$12 to $21.50 an hour-
Tim Pickett:
Challenge accepted-
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
$12 to $21.50 an hour, plus benefits. We’re working on medical and dental, but at least it’s 401(k) with a 4% match. And yeah, we’re more than a restaurant, we’re a lifestyle.
Chris Holifield:
Awesome.
Tim Pickett:
Way cool.
Chris Holifield:
All right, so if you’re going to go and reach out, hit me up so I can get that gift card.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
Yep. And your name. Tell them to mention you. Anyone listening, Todd at Kentucky Fried Chicken listening, you get someone, Sally who comes in and applies. And they say, Todd heard you on this podcast, 50 bucks, come find me.
Tim Pickett:
There you go-
Chris Holifield:
All right, there you go. Awesome. Well thank you so much and-
Tim Pickett:
Thanks Amy-
Chris Holifield:
… it’s been a fun night here at WB’s. I think this is going to be our last-
Tim Pickett:
Absolutely is-
Chris Holifield:
… conversation tonight.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, at WB’s the Weed Social that we’ve been to, sponsored by Salt Baked City. I’m Tim Pickett…
Chris Holifield:
And I’m Chris Holifield.
Tim Pickett:
You can find all of our podcasts on utahmarijuana.org/podcast every week, Friday.
Chris Holifield:
Friday 4:20 AM, it launches a new episode right in your podcast app there.
Tim Pickett:
All right everybody.
Chris Holifield:
Thank you so much.
Amy Wanderley-Britt:
I appreciate y’all, really.
Tim Pickett:
All right. Stay safe out there.
Like so many others, Toby Larson first used cannabis in high school. [03:30] It wasn’t until California began investigating Medical Cannabis that he even considered the drug for medicinal purposes. He resisted getting a medical card, even when it was made available, because he was unsure whether he would have any rights stripped away as a result. Those were the early days of Medical Cannabis in California.
As an athlete, Larson found that using cannabis helped him to focus more on his performance. [09:36] He didn’t feel the need to satisfy the urge to stop due to tired muscles or burning lungs. These days, he recommends Medical Cannabis to MMA fighters and other athletes he works with. It helps them deal with the pain and get the necessary sleep to be competitive.
This particular conversation took two fascinating turns. The first was the idea of using cannabis as a way to make for a better life. [16:05] Rather than looking at cannabis exclusively from a disease-treatment standpoint, perhaps it should be viewed as a way to enhance specific areas of life – like creativity, for example.
The other fascinating turn involved utilizing Medical Cannabis to combat aging. [29:51] The idea is to use cannabis to enhance performance, thus combating the effects of aging. In other words, live as healthy a life as possible by staying active so that you live your best life right up until the moment your body says ‘enough’.
Discussing cannabis from an athletic performance standpoint shines a whole new light on the Medical Cannabis concept. If you are into high-octane sports and enhancing your athletic performance, you absolutely cannot miss this podcast. Tim and Chris discuss a great topic with a guy who has real-world experience helping himself and other athletes maximize their performance.
Chris Holifield:
Let’s welcome everybody out today to episode 59 of Utah in the Weeds. My name’s Chris Holifield.
Tim Pickett:
And I’m Tim Pickett, a medical cannabis expert here in Utah. I’m excited because this conversation we had today, Chris, was different than a lot of what we’ve done before.
Chris Holifield:
It was with Toby Larson. He’s a medical cannabis patient, as well as an athlete and mental coach. I mean, this guy has worked with MMA fighters and all different kinds of people on using cannabis to improve your athletic performance. I thought it was a great conversation.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. A lot of the conversation revolved also around older adult users and supplementing cannabis to help mobility as you age, like using cannabis as a supplement, using THC as a supplement. It’s interesting. Anybody who’s interested in cannabis and different ways to use it, this is a great conversation to listen through.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. I know you were just sitting at the edge of your seat because I know you’re all into the olympic weightlifting, Tim. So you were just like, “I got to absorb everything this guy has to say.”
Tim Pickett:
I know. I think I was a little bit more engaged than on average, I will say. I’m interested in this for sure. What else is going on, Chris?
Chris Holifield:
Hey, next Wednesday, the 26th, in Ogden, at WB’s Eatery, it’s a weed social, man, for people, for cannabis users and weedheads and potheads and everybody to just come and hang out, man, I guess.
Tim Pickett:
It’s the 26th at 5:30 p.m. You can purchase tickets to it at WBsEatery.com. Check these guys out. This is going to be a good way for the community to get together and talk about what’s happening in the cannabis scene. It’s sponsored by Salt Baked City, who are good friends of ours. And we are going to be there, Chris. We’re going to be there podcasting, recording. So if you want to say a few words on the podcast, come up.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. Let us know. You can even reach out to Tim or myself before Wednesday. Let us know. That way we can keep an eye out for you, or an ear out for you or whatnot. But, yeah, come on up. Do we have the website? Is it just WBsEatery.com or something like that?
Tim Pickett:
Correct. WBsEatery.com. Make sure you’re subscribed in all the channels. You can read the podcast summaries. You can find us on UtahMarijuana.org/podcast. You can reach out to Chris or I if you know somebody or you want to come on as a guest with the podcast. We’re getting into summer. The events are happening.
Chris Holifield:
I know I’m excited, getting out and meeting with people in public. The people are getting out and about. The sun is shining. Anything going on with you guys? Utah Therapeutic, UtahMarijuana.org? Anything that we need to talk about?
Tim Pickett:
Watch for pharmacy openings in Southern Utah towards the end of the month, first of next month. We’ll have more on our website, on our social. We’ll be bringing people on, on the podcast. That’s, I think, the biggest news in the industry right now.
Chris Holifield:
Very cool. All right. Well, let’s get into that conversation with Toby Larson. This is a good one, you guys. Enjoy it.
—————-
Chris Holifield:
Let’s start with even what got you introduced to cannabis. I mean, let’s go back to very beginning, the first time Toby used it. I mean, were you a little Toby, or were you a big Toby?
Toby Larson:
The first time I used was my last week of my senior year in high school. Knowing what I know now, I will say that I would’ve waited until I was 24. I believe the brain science does speak to fact that we should probably wait until we’re about 24 to start using. Make sure the frontal lobe has finished growing. Any time you use … I believe the term is androgynous chemicals to affect you, you want to avoid that during times that you’re growing.
Tim Pickett:
Just in general, right?
Toby Larson:
Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
In general. We go back to this sometimes. We should just be eating salads, fruits and vegetables, exercising until we’re … Well, that’s forever. You don’t want to introduce anything foreign. And with cannabis, I would … Yeah. It’s the same. It’s a strong drug.
Toby Larson:
Yeah. It’s worth waiting until we’re on the decline. But, that said, I was 18. It was my senior year in high school, finishing up. I had been pretty much the most straight narrow guy up until then and just decided, hey, I need to live life before I go off to college. So first purchase was a quarter. Me and my buddy-
Tim Pickett:
Oh, wow. You went big.
Toby Larson:
Yeah. Pretty much consumed about half of it that night.
Chris Holifield:
What? Your first time?
Toby Larson:
Yeah.
Chris Holifield:
That much.
Toby Larson:
The best story I have from that was … And it was two of us. He was a pretty heavy user, so I might’ve had a bowl, and he might’ve had the rest of the eighth. I don’t know how fairly divided it was. But we ended up going to Taco Bell. Long story short, I tell this Steven Wright comedy skit apparently to five people at the Taco Bell. They give us a free 10-pack of tacos and tell us to get out.
Chris Holifield:
Get out of here.
Toby Larson:
Last I remember was … Yeah. That was the first time. And then it was kind of a while since then.
Chris Holifield:
Was that here in Utah, or where was-
Toby Larson:
No, that was actually in Colorado. I grew up in Estes Park. So that was mountain weed, grown in Estes, probably. I bought it from a biker up there. It was kind of funny. It was a whole lot different than it is now. But, anyway, so then, go off to college, go to Kansas. Have no hookups or anything there. Really didn’t use it at all until we moved out to California. When I arrived in California, they were just beginning the process of legalization, starting to talk about that for medicinal purposes. It would show up at parties here and there, but it wasn’t really that prevalent. It’s interesting thinking now about how back then, it was so hard to find. You’d have a supply or a hookup, and then if you lost that person, it’s the worst. It might be months-
Chris Holifield:
It’s the worst. Yeah.
Toby Larson:
… before you find somebody else.
Tim Pickett:
So weird because in high schools and colleges, I would imagine that’s easy. It was easy then to find the hookup.
Chris Holifield:
I think depending on who you are, though. I mean, I never have found hookups easy.
Tim Pickett:
Don’t you think everybody knows that guy? Right? I know of the guy-
Toby Larson:
When you’re out of college, though, and you’re-
Tim Pickett:
Exactly.
Toby Larson:
… living in a different city.
Tim Pickett:
And you’re an adult. You’re working. Now it’s hard because it’s not like you’re going to ask around at work. Right?
Toby Larson:
Honestly, back then, it was probably easier to find cocaine than it was marijuana, at work. Granted, I was working in commercial real estate.
Tim Pickett:
Maybe that’s why.
Chris Holifield:
The ’90s, right?
Toby Larson:
Yeah.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, the ’90s.
Tim Pickett:
The ’90s. That’s crazy.
Chris Holifield:
So what was your thoughts when you heard medical marijuana? Because, I mean, obviously, the first time you used it you probably weren’t familiar with using it as a medicinal thing, right?
Toby Larson:
Correct.
Chris Holifield:
What was your thoughts you heard the term?
Toby Larson:
Yeah. Actually, one of the suppliers I had when I was working in tech in San Francisco, he had terminal cancer, and he was able to grow 10 plants of his own. Because of his cancer, he was unable to work. So he subsidized himself through the plants that he was legally able to grow. It was a friend of a friend. It was kind of part, I guess, early day GoFundMe for his treatment, and part, hey, here’s a thank you gift for you helping us out. So that was how that was.
Toby Larson:
When he passed, then it was probably another four years before recreational marijuana started. During that time, I just … If somebody offered it to me, I would enjoy it with them. But if it wasn’t around, it wasn’t around. I had reservations at that time of getting a medical license. I still felt the stigma and the concern about what’s going to happen if people know that I have a legal marijuana license. What other rights are they going to potentially strip away from me?
Toby Larson:
I think back, and one of the things in California that’s interesting, if you had a medical license, you could not own a gun. I don’t know if Utah ever discussed that as part of the rule, but it was that type of thing that made you wonder, will I not be able to have a driver’s license down the road? What else are they going to say is limiting? So, for me, it was just that, well, let’s see what happens for a little while. But then, once it became recreationally available, then, of course, it’s [crosstalk 00:09:13]-
Chris Holifield:
Like okay, whatever. Who cares?
Toby Larson:
Yeah. The variety and quality of products made it the type of thing that was worth checking out. So I originally used it recreationally for recreational purposes. As time went on, I started realizing benefits when I used it in various performance settings.
Chris Holifield:
What kind of benefits were you seeing?
Toby Larson:
One of the biggest things I find is my ability to turn off the part of my brain that wants me to stop. That inner wimp that’s telling you your lungs are burning, your legs are burning. Slow down. You don’t need to push through. It allows you to hyper focus so that you can really stay focused on the goal, on the technique, on whatever it is you’re working towards, and be less concerned about satisfying whatever current state you’re feeling.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. That’s a good way to put it. Less concerned about satisfying the current negativity that you’re feeling right now. But, at the same time, hyper focusing really on the present, because it turns off short-term memory. It changes your perception of time. What sports were you noticing this with?
Toby Larson:
Yeah. With me, I do action sport personally. But I also work with quite a few mixed martial artists, pro MMA fighters. And, for them, it’s necessary for a few reasons. One is the training for that sport is absolutely brutal. You are getting kicked and punched daily, and that is what you do for a living. Throwing around, your joints manipulated. It’s rough. They are in pain every day, every night. The use of marijuana by them is certainly needed just in order to get to sleep so that you can recover.
Chris Holifield:
What got you into that? What got you into UFC fighting?
Toby Larson:
Kind of interesting. I actually was a high school teacher for a while. When I reached the end of my interest in teaching high school, I went back and became a kinesiologist. I got a master’s degree in kinesiology, and I’m finishing my doctorate in performance psychology right now. Just writing my dissertation at the moment. So almost done.
Toby Larson:
I had coached in high school. I absolutely love coaching far more teaching math and wanted to find a way to make that more of what I do on a regular basis. One of my athletes and students I coached track and football. One of them became a pro MMA fighter, and that basically opened the door to a whole bunch of other MMA fighters. In the field of sports psychology and coaching, it’s more connection for how you get in. Everybody has that story of here’s who I knew, and that’s how I got in the door.
Tim Pickett:
Yep. Here’s what I did. Here’s what I knew.
Toby Larson:
And here’s who helped me in.
Tim Pickett:
Because it’s not like you can go out and you’re applying for a sports psych job, and there’s going to be a lot of opportunity unless you know somebody in. That’s the thing.
Toby Larson:
That’s the most important thing. You have to know somebody. If a pro athlete’s going to work with you, you have to be bonafide by somebody. It’s really hard to convince somebody whose life is their performance that they should bring you on if they don’t know who you are.
Tim Pickett:
Is that the same with all coaching, you think? Or is it just-
Toby Larson:
I do.
Tim Pickett:
… psychology coaching? Because I feel like-
Toby Larson:
No, I think it’s-
Tim Pickett:
… personal coaching, soccer coaching … I deal with this with my family, right? You’re looking for somebody who you can get a referral to. If you look online, it’s just hard to get that.
Toby Larson:
Correct. And the higher up you are, the more your livelihood depends on how you do, and as that becomes more critical, the who around you is also critical. So knowing that the people that an athlete’s working with are actually good at what they do and can do what they say, also knowing that they’re not going to somehow try to take away from the athlete as well.
Tim Pickett:
Interesting. How does cannabis fit … Have you become the cannabis-friendly coach or the cannabis-friendly-
Toby Larson:
I’m not. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn’t say I’m not. I guess … How to phrase this? I don’t use cannabis in that part of my practice. I use cannabis solely in my understanding of skill acquisition and working with friends of mine that are also going in that route. The pro athlete route, there’s quite a few people that they’ll have around them, and I really focus on my specific role, which is the cognitive elements of performance and training.
Toby Larson:
I will talk to them about stuff I do cannabis-wise. But I don’t necessarily specifically instruct them on how to apply cannabis for their individual sport. Instead, that’s more on the adult side work that I do with more groups of adults, I guess I would say, as a grad student, I’m kind of trying to maximize my knowledge with. I don’t necessarily charge them, but they’re willing to take my advanced coaching and follow me down the hill and try stuff out. That’s really where it’s come more in play there.
Toby Larson:
Really, more of the idea of how do we actually get into that prime space so that we can just go have fun, and, really, as adult athletes, allow ourselves to push ourselves a little bit further? As a medical use, anti-aging should be considered as a real strong possibility for marijuana indication. A few reasons for that. One is there’s very little data out there on how marijuana affects anything performance-related.
Tim Pickett:
Oh, yeah. Except for you can’t do it, right?
Toby Larson:
Exactly.
Tim Pickett:
Just the rule.
Toby Larson:
What’s really interesting, even when we look at intoxicated driving, there is no evidence that marijuana has any effect on driving. Marijuana plus alcohol has a massive effect on driving.
Tim Pickett:
There actually is a little. I’ll point to a Canadian study. There’s a little study that they did with cannabis use, and they would call anybody who used over three days a week a chronic user. Then they gave them doses. They waited 10 hours, put them in a simulator. So you don’t make big mistakes. But you do cross the center line and miss your turn more. So there’s a little bit of effect that they can show. They correlate.
Toby Larson:
They correlate. They actually have pretty poor methodology in their study, and if you look at the meta-analyses on these, you’ll see that of all the studies, about 90% show no significant difference between a marijuana user and a non-marijuana user on a variety of performance tasks. It’s fascinating. The way we communicate science, the way that science is published, is a big problem.
Tim Pickett:
I would agree with that.
Toby Larson:
Marijuana has always been looked at from a disease model and rarely looked at from any other aspect.
Tim Pickett:
But you’re trying to get the conversation started as an enhancement model.
Toby Larson:
Correct.
Tim Pickett:
Essentially. How can we use this? How can we manipulate this plant to benefit society, not just to treat illness, because in medicine, we’ve said for generations, we have this wrong model. We wait until people get sick, and then we treat them. But you’re trying to take the other approach. Why not look at this as performance-enhancing substance, which a lot of people use it for-
Chris Holifield:
Like a pre-workout or something.
Tim Pickett:
Right? Like a pre-workout.
Toby Larson:
As nutrition.
Tim Pickett:
Well, think about the coders who use it to enhance their coding work or their focus. Or the artists, the creativity. We’re already talking about it in that sense. But we’re not talking about it from a physical or a true … What would you call that? A performance sense.
Toby Larson:
Yeah. From a performance … Or, just in general, how do we start using it as a nutrient? Maybe the reason CBD is so popular, maybe the reason that so many states are adopting legal medical marijuana, maybe the reason so much of the society is starting to regularly consume marijuana, I think we should change the language from use to consume. Maybe there’s a lot of nutrients that we get out of the cannabinoids.
Tim Pickett:
Or maybe there’s endocannabinoid deficiency syndrome, which the Society of Cannabis Clinicians wants to put on the diagnosis list.
Toby Larson:
I would say that live modern life with cannabis versus live modern life without. If without doesn’t work for you, maybe with probably does. I think there’s a lot of modern life, that if you think about cannabis, how does it counteract those effects? So if we think about the way that social media creates this rage and compounding negativity that just seems to build and build, that starts to get you really upset and worked out. Now you maybe go hit a dab. What happens then?
Tim Pickett:
You’re chill.
Toby Larson:
You’re coming back down, right? All that rage is gone. Now, if we do that broader scale, what happens societally? Maybe we talk as opposed to yell. And if we can talk, maybe we can hear. So, on a general level, I think there’s great things to do with it. But on a specific performance level, I think its biggest asset is with adult athletes, especially in the anti-aging realm. What I’ve found, when I started doing a lot of the research, one thing I’ve found that really is commonly found, if the rate of metabolic syndrome is significantly less with a massive effect size for what they call chronic, which I would call regular marijuana users.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. And we would call chronic users like three days a week or something. I mean, not really heroic pot smokers.
Toby Larson:
Correct.
Chris Holifield:
Chronic sounds so bad, though. That sounds-
Tim Pickett:
I know. It does sound so bad. But you’re-
Chris Holifield:
At least, to me. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Right. I use the term heroic. It’s the surgeon I used to work with. He would use the term heroic smoker, and that would mean like smoked cigarettes like crazy for years and years and years. That’s what I would call the guy who smokes three or four joints a day. That’s a heroic user. So move terms. But this three day a week performance enhancing … Yeah. I’ve read the average BMI, basal metabolic index, of marijuana users is lower than the population in general, meaning it doesn’t make you fat. You have to teach people.
Toby Larson:
In fact, it actually helps you lose weight. Since I moved to Utah, not only did I get my medical marijuana license, but, also, I’ve gone from 220 to … Currently I’m at about 168. That’s because I [crosstalk 00:20:47]-
Tim Pickett:
Just from marijuana use?
Toby Larson:
Well, from being active. Yes, from marijuana use, because that allows me to get up the next day and go as hard as I did the day before.
Tim Pickett:
So talk about that a little bit, though. When your physical performance … This is something I’m really into. And I haven’t talked a lot about it on the podcast, but I’m into physical training and performance, especially adult athlete type stuff. I think it’s super healthy for people. Very, very motivating. Lots of things happen in the brain, in the metabolism to make people better when they’re exercising. One of the things that is for sure, anti-aging, we want our lives to be a square. We want to go right up until the end and then just die. But in order to do that, you have to be mobile. You have to stay mobile. How does cannabis fit into that piece, then?
Toby Larson:
Multiple ways, and in fascinating ways, I’ve found. So, obviously, just the basic effect of pain relief at night is massive. Being able to get to sleep and stay asleep is huge for anybody doing anything performance related. That, I think, is generally accepted and thought of as a common effect that we’re going to see. But then, if we start thinking about some of the psychotropic effects, marijuana decreases anxiety. That’s super excellent from a performance standpoint, not only from an I’m actually competing today, maybe in a golf tournament, and I don’t want to shank my putt. Probably will help you there. Most of the PGA tour players are on beta blockers. That’s why they putt better than you or I do. They never feel their palms sweaty during a tournament. Beta blockers help you do that. Cannabis has a similar effect, maybe not as strong as beta blockers, and maybe better in a long-term situation than beta blockers, especially for a performance purpose.
Tim Pickett:
Interesting. I didn’t know that about golfers, but it makes sense that you would want to manipulate … I mean, this is how you make your living, so you’re going to do everything you can to manipulate your physiology to maximize your performance. I know looking at … Okay. Switch gears to long-distance athletics. So I ran for a while. I’ll be honest with you. I mean, cannabis, medical marijuana, whatever you want to call it, it is a super drug when it comes to long-distance running or long-distance biking. Well, you think about it. In fact, I’ve heard and never read that they’re trying to eliminate it from these 100-mile races because you can focus. Your perception of time is diminished. So here I got to go run five hours, and it doesn’t bother me because I don’t know what time it is. And I get dry mouth, so I stay hydrated and hungry the whole time. These are things that are need. It feels like the golden egg for long-distance, performance-enhancing-
Chris Holifield:
Wouldn’t it wear off after the first hour, though?
Tim Pickett:
Well, just take a little more.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah, that’s true. Just bring it along with you.
Toby Larson:
I’d say the other thing, once you get your brain really going and marching in that direction, it’s easier to keep it going that way. The effects can wear off, and I can be in the middle of a long-distance mountain bike ride going up, just continuously pounding up hills. But I’ve already taught myself to have my brain in that mindset for the first hour or whatever it is. It’s easier to stay there. It’s getting to there that’s very difficult for a lot of people. If we think about obesity and sedentary lifestyle epidemics going on in the US right now, the hardest aspect in exercise psychology is getting somebody to actually take that first step out the door, not getting them to run once they’re out the door. It’s just getting the shoes on and exiting the house. That’s the biggest barrier to exercise for most people.
Tim Pickett:
For sure, because then you take a week off, and it’s not the workout that’s hard. It’s getting your ass to the gym that’s hard. We used to do it in the swimming pool, and you would just say to yourself, “You know what? I’m just going to go down there and swim 200 yards or 200 meters, because I know if I get in the pool and I swim the 200, and I’ve just told myself I’m going to swim, and I’m going to get out, and I’m going to go to the locker room and go. Eh, I’ll stay and swim the workout. But you’ve just got to get started. I mean, is there any real studies that you could point to, or is there books you can go to?
Toby Larson:
There’s preliminary studies. One of the issues in the US is that research on marijuana medicinally has been very limited, very regulated. That’s a massive amount of research that’s been done in comparison to any other aspect of marijuana. So you already know how limited it is as a clinician, to understand, to even begin to look at how different terpenes might benefit different types of medical conditions. We can’t run control trials. We can’t do a lot of these powerful studies that would give us true knowledge because of the legality around that.
Tim Pickett:
And beyond. It’s not like you’re taking a bunch of chronic pain patients and running and doing a study like that. It’s putting a bunch of guys on treadmills, men and women on treadmills, and letting them use a little cannabis. That’s an entirely different study to do that would be even more restricted, right?
Toby Larson:
Correct. Our best indication, in all honesty, is looking at some of the research that’s come out of the University of Tel Aviv and some of the work that’s gone on in Israel, where they’ve actually had legal research going on for quite some time. One of the athletes I work with is an Israeli national, is from Tel Aviv. You can talk to a pharmacist there and be very specific about what’s going on and what you’re looking for, and they can give you a strain that is almost a perfect match for you. We’re quite a ways away from that right now here, I would argue.
Tim Pickett:
Here in Utah?
Toby Larson:
Yeah. Even in the US.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. We’re a long ways from that in the US, for sure. But their testing ability and their database in Israel is really some of the best in the world, if not the best in the world.
Toby Larson:
Absolutely. Yeah. 100%. It is used both in performance settings out there, or in performance settings for both athletics and non-athletic performance needs, in Israel, quite extensively. And it’s incredibly beneficial. They’ve found that. I understand now is a difficult time to be talking about that nation, but we’re talking about marijuana here, not about that. That’s why I bring it up, because that is an example of how, if we’re able to give our scientists a chance to really study this, we’re going to learn a lot more. We’re actually going to be able to learn how to maximize the benefits and decrease the drawbacks as well. Vaping versus smoking as one example. We already see that vaping’s a much better form of consumption for the lungs than combustion in general.
Tim Pickett:
Than combustion.
Toby Larson:
Because combustion of any plant is harmful, or the combusted material of any plant is harmful to humans, or the smoke from it. Doesn’t matter if it’s a forest fire that we’re all going to probably be breathing here in a couple months, unfortunately, or nicotine or tobacco or marijuana. Any type of smoke is bad to breathe, to inhale regularly. Whereas finding the isolates that we can consume in ways that are less damaging, if we can get the research on that, I think then the performance enhancement effects really start to come up even higher in the anti-aging.
Toby Larson:
So to circle back to the getting out the door, the anti-anxiety helps you not be worried about how hard this workout’s going to be, about how are you going to feel the next day. If you’re starting from scratch and trying to become active, you need a coach to help you along with that, because you need social support. There’s a lot more than just one drug that’s going to help you through it. You need a community to help you change the cycle on that.
Toby Larson:
But if you’re an adult athlete trying to fight off aging as hard as you can, this plant will absolutely benefit you to meet that purpose. If we really want to increase the health of everybody, I think I’m the age group we should be looking at more than any other age group in general, because this is when metabolic disease really starts to switch from being managed by lifestyle and managed by healthcare. Absolutely something we need to avoid if we want to solve a lot of issues that we have in society. We need to not have preventable disease so prevalent.
Chris Holifield:
And when you say your age group, for listeners, you’re in your later forties, right?
Toby Larson:
About. Yeah. I’m 47.
Chris Holifield:
Well, how do you talk about-
Toby Larson:
Older guy.
Chris Holifield:
… your age without … But people listening were like, “Well, this guy’s 21, right?”
Toby Larson:
Damn. No, exactly.
Chris Holifield:
We’re getting up there, Tim. We’re going to be-
Tim Pickett:
I know. We’re getting up there.
Chris Holifield:
… in our late forties here soon.
Toby Larson:
I guess, to go back to really where I’ve seen it super beneficial with me and my friends, in skill acquisition, one of the things that was a goal of mine this ski season, was to be able to hit 15-foot cliffs reliably. I know for a lot of people in the that’s kind of no big deal. I hadn’t before. So, for me, it was kind of a big thing. I don’t know what [crosstalk 00:31:11]-
Chris Holifield:
Is that what the foot brace thing is?
Tim Pickett:
Is that what happened to your foot?
Toby Larson:
No. I sprained the ankle on my bike, but I sprained my ankle. I didn’t break it. I didn’t give myself a concussion. I popped a shoulder.
Chris Holifield:
It happens.
Toby Larson:
I guess I can say I pushed it in just about the right amount because I think you do need to get hurt every now and then if you’re really trying to be an athlete.
Chris Holifield:
It makes you feel alive, right? It’s that you’re still there, right?
Tim Pickett:
And it shows you that you’re pushing right up to the line, which a lot of training isn’t up to the line, right? We do a lot of exercise that’s not that beneficial if you want to get better at what you do.
Toby Larson:
We hold ourselves back a bit, yeah. So I have a whole philosophy on fitness in general. I think a lot of people get too cut up in trying to set fitness goals based upon numbers or aesthetics. Fitness goals based upon abilities, fitness goals based upon capabilities, those have intrinsic reward, and those allow you to stick with it. But it’s hard to stick with stuff, so you need the androgynous aids to help you out, to help make it through, because, once again, if you’re an adult, you have a lot of other responsibilities. Your entire life cannot be just about your performance unless you’re a professional athlete, and then, unfortunately, your entire life is about your fitness.
Tim Pickett:
Right. Then you have the other problem-
Toby Larson:
Exactly.
Tim Pickett:
… which is you don’t want to have a life outside of your fitness.
Toby Larson:
You don’t get to take time off from your fitness, and if you do, it has a massive impact in your career, potentially. Exactly. In fact, when guys do that for too long, when they come back, that’s generally when they’re getting injured. Most [crosstalk 00:33:00]-
Tim Pickett:
So you don’t see this as something that teenagers, early twenties, could benefit from? Or you really just avoid that because of the frontal lobe discussion we had before, which is, really, it’s just probably not safe to be using exogenous cannabinoid therapy, a bunch of THC, smoking a bunch of weed when you’re 18-19 years old, regardless of why you’re doing it.
Toby Larson:
Yeah. I would just say I don’t want to present myself as somebody who could speak to that age group. I feel like there’s a lot there that I don’t know. So I feel it’s safer to stay away from it, absolutely, at that point. But I also would say I don’t know.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah.
Toby Larson:
So I should not be one to make the determination on that, either. Hopefully there’s more people that, as time goes on, are willing to admit where their ignorance lies.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. Because I know, I mean, you’ve had patients that are younger, right?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. We certainly have patients that are in that age group, 18 to 21 and then 21 to 25. And we do say the same things that you’re talking about. Look, anything that’s not natural, that’s not fruits and vegetables and exercise and good sleep, is not ideal. But we also live in the modern world, where now we’re talking about, okay, am I going to put you on a benzodiazepine, or am I going to let you use a little cannabis? Now, we’re starting to have this discussion of either/or. Which is worse? That’s the studies we need, and those are the studies we don’t really have, are those specific studies where one thing is better than the other, from a long-term and negative side effects standpoint. Is your nerve pain so bad that you need something strong, that, yeah, it has negative side effects, but that’s the way it is? It’s less than … Or the seizure. Same thing.
Toby Larson:
I mean, for me, I would defer completely to you on non-adult use. I guess when I started doing my research, I didn’t even look at that age group, even to know anything about it. So I feel like, yeah, I guess, for me, it seems like it’s an extreme black box, how it works for, say, the 18- to 24-year-old range in a performance setting. I also would imagine that if you’re in the 18- to 24-year-old range who’s really being very serious and dedicated about performance, there’s probably ambition there, in which case, now you need to make sure that you’re following the rules and the ways that’s not going to get you banned from your sport, and not going to take two years off of your career during your prime.
Tim Pickett:
So do you think that there are sports or skill acquisition things that marijuana’s not good for?
Toby Larson:
I would say if you consider the short-term memory potential loss for marijuana use, probably any type of choreographed sport would be problematic. So, absolutely, your-
Tim Pickett:
Dancers, figure skaters.
Toby Larson:
… dancers, your figure skaters. Yeah. The synchronized divers. Probably very tough for them. If you’re trying to learn a specific combined sequence of movements that’s part of a choreography. Now, if you’re trying to improve your abilities, then it’s the complete opposite. If we want to improve our skills, we need to be less focused actually on our body mechanics and more focused on the outcome of our actions, of what we’re trying to produce with our skis, with our bike, with our blade, whatever is we’re using.
Toby Larson:
In the case of running, focus on getting the ground ahead of us to be the ground behind us, getting the soles of the shoes to pull that ground past us, letting our feet propel our body forward. So, in that case, what the marijuana use does then, it lets you get out of your way and lets you become more in tune with the sensations you’re getting as you’re engaged in your sport. That’s what you need to be attuned to if you’re trying to improve your performance. You need to feel the subtle differences as you just make minor adjustments subconsciously to the changing conditions.
Toby Larson:
When I’m skiing, when we’re skiing, we can go down a mogul field sober and start getting really focused on where our knees are, where our hands are. Am I front seat enough? Am I leaning back too far? How steep is this mogul field? Versus we can roll up there a little bit high and really just enjoy it and feel it and start to pick up the timing and start to develop the physical feel and be attuned to the different inputs we’re receiving from our senses and start to understand how to manipulate whatever equipment we’re using to generate the feel that we’re looking for, as opposed to trying to do it right, as opposed to trying to do it a specific way. That allows your skills to increase, which makes the activity far more enjoyable. That then sustains you in that activity for much longer, because now your endorphins are kicking in. You’re tuned in. You’re focused, and you’re in that zone.
Tim Pickett:
Now you’re allowing the dopamine response to come chemically in the body. You’re enhancing it a little bit. I mean, as a side note, don’t try this at home, kids. This is not medical advice, and this isn’t really researched. But it’s just a fascinating discussion about a whole different side of cannabis use that we don’t think about a lot.
Toby Larson:
But, once again, I think it comes back to medicinal use. If we think about all this stuff in the greater scheme of anti-aging, and in the greater scheme of being healthier as an adult, like I said, I believe the greatest combatant to aging is mobility. The more mobile you are, the more youthful people think you are, because you’re always more mobile, or you should be more mobile at a younger age just always, because your biology is better. I mean, I guess you hit your peaks somewhere in your mid-twenties. If anybody’s considering a kinesiology program, once you take motor development over the lifespan, you will become the most depressed person, because you realize from 25 on, it’s just downhill. It is decay from then on.
Tim Pickett:
It’s just decay.
Chris Holifield:
Then it hits again at 40, I think, right? It accelerates as you go down the hill.
Toby Larson:
It changes gears. Each decade the falloff speeds. But it doesn’t have to.
Chris Holifield:
True.
Toby Larson:
You can fight the biology. You just have to do it with physical work and diet. The few studies that I’ve read that have been good, that have numbers on it, one has been on the metabolic syndrome. It shows that regular marijuana users have a much lower prevalence of any of the metabolic diseases, such as diabetes, hypertension, obesity, than the general public, almost a half to a third of what the general public rate is. So, clearly, this has benefits there. We don’t have research to explain why that benefit exists.
Toby Larson:
I think one of the explanations for that benefit is that there’s people like me out there, that are using it to allow them to live life like a pro athlete in their late forties, because it gives you that recovery ability. It gives you the ability to focus on what you’re doing and not be distracted by things going on outside of your performance or just general worries that then make you make hesitant errors that are generally the ones that are going to lead to injury. Hesitation in action sport is where more injuries occur than trying too hard, I would argue, for adults. So, to me, it’s provided this ability to tap into a youth I have within me, but requires a lot of heavy work to get out.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. That makes sense. You mentioned you have your medical card here in Utah. What are some of your favorite ways to consume cannabis, especially before athletic-type things?
Toby Larson:
I just got a Dr. Dabber. That thing is brilliant. I absolutely love it. It’s great. It uses such a small amount to create the vapor. The way it creates the vapor, I mean, the induction just absolutely seems to give me a predictable dose and give me a predictable feeling that then I can know … So one of the studies that I’ve read, and I would say it’s not super great data because they only had a couple hundred participants, but what they did find is that the individuals who smoked or who consumed cannabis an hour prior to working out were within two hours of working out, did about 20% more effort in terms of cardiovascular output and would do about 30% more effort if it were anaerobic exercise.
Tim Pickett:
Wow. That’s surprising.
Toby Larson:
But if you think about your story with running-
Tim Pickett:
Oh, yeah. I mean, I would imagine-
Toby Larson:
… you’re able to not-
Tim Pickett:
… the running … Yeah. You’re just able to run forever. And you don’t care. The only thing I would say with, for instance, trail running and cannabis is if you have your dog with you, just be careful because you forget where your dog is, and you got to go look for your dog.
Toby Larson:
You got to know when you can completely tune out from the world-
Tim Pickett:
Exactly.
Toby Larson:
… and when you’ve got to [crosstalk 00:44:00]-
Chris Holifield:
Just don’t take your dog along, Tim.
Tim Pickett:
You’re like, “Dang it. That dog is like two canyons over.”
Toby Larson:
[inaudible 00:44:05] just-
Tim Pickett:
Right? You’re just trucking.
Toby Larson:
Next thing you know you’re in Davis County.
Tim Pickett:
Right? How did I get here? Dang it. Gus? Gus, where are you? Yeah. I really like this conversation. I think that talking about cannabis as a supplement is interesting. There’s this whole other thing I’ve been thinking as we’re talking. And I’m starting to get into the science of what cannabinoids I would try to manipulate or consume in different ways to enhance this. Delta-9 THC is mostly what we’re talking about today because that’s what separates you from the short-term memory and the time dilation. So if there’s not enough studies on just cannabis in general, there’s certainly not going to be any data on which cannabinoids to use. But I can totally see, in the future, these things that will come off the shelf. I mean, there’s already a huge market for adult athletes in the supplement industry, and this does make a lot of sense.
Toby Larson:
And CBD in athletics, I would say it almost looks like breakfast cereal. There’s so many choices. I mean, it’s numerous, with large manufacturers, small ones. Clearly, there’s a market for it. I’ve found that the medical cannabis-derived products just work so much better than the hemp-derived CBD products.
Chris Holifield:
Maybe this will help change some of that stigma, that lazy stoner. They just sit on the couch and eat potato chips, right?
Toby Larson:
Yeah. I mean-
Chris Holifield:
Especially an athletic thing, right?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Right?
Toby Larson:
220 to 165. I mean, and I don’t look like I’m a beanpole, either. I mean, I’m an athletic, tall man that people-
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. I think we’ve talked about that, Tim, how most people that smoke weed, that use cannabis, tend to be thinner people.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. They’re thinner. On average, they’re thinner people. Now, I mean, there are products out there, and, certainly, we use it for chemotherapy, nausea. We use it to help people eat more, which it does. If you use it well and under a kind of instruction, then it can be used to gain weight. No doubt about it. But, on the whole, people don’t gain. They just don’t gain weight. Most of the time people, they think they’re hungry, but they’re actually just thirsty. And little Tim’s tidbits right here. If you just keep some ice water next to you, or close, and you drink water first, you’re not that hungry.
Chris Holifield:
I like that.
Toby Larson:
I agree. Yeah.
Chris Holifield:
How-
Toby Larson:
Or … Go ahead.
Tim Pickett:
Go ahead, Chris.
Chris Holifield:
Well, I was just going to ask … change the direction a little bit. How has the Utah market treated you? You got your card. You’re hitting up some of these pharmacy dispensaries. How has it been for getting product for you?
Toby Larson:
I’d say now it’s incredibly better. I think Utah is starting to turn the corner on production. I’d love to see live resin. I’d love to see bubble hash. I’d love to see all the things that you can get in Nevada, in California, in Colorado, here. I think it’s on the way. I believe it was three or four podcasts ago, it was discussed on your podcast, and, basically, how there’s so much going into vape carts right now that they’re just isn’t enough plant material to provide-
Tim Pickett:
That’s true.
Toby Larson:
… additional product. But I’ve noticed some are starting to provide … Instead of carts, they’re providing syringes, so at least the oil. You don’t need to have the screw attachment thing. So it’ll work in the-
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. It works in your-
Toby Larson:
… Dr. Dab again now.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. It’ll work in the dab rig. I think that was Beverly when we were talking to Jilu and talking about, yeah, there’s just not enough plant material yet to make-
Chris Holifield:
Soon.
Tim Pickett:
… because it takes so much plant material to make live resin.
Toby Larson:
Definitely. I think that seems to be going away, because it seems like the production is getting better. My dad was a farmer back in the day. Understand, you have good years and bad years. If it’s your first time raising a crop, it’s going to take a little bit to learn it. And so-
Chris Holifield:
You’ve got to be patient. People don’t realize that. I think if we’re just patient, hey, next year’s going to be bomb here in Utah is what I say, right?
Tim Pickett:
It really is going to be cool. I mean, I can’t wait. We’re opening up events now for the summer. Yeah. 2022 is shaping up to be really fun.
Chris Holifield:
Well, all the growers will be up and going. I think all the dispensaries-
Tim Pickett:
All the pharmacies.
Chris Holifield:
… should be up and going. All the more card users, more and more everything.
Toby Larson:
I’m starting to see CBG now.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. A lot of it. In fact, we bought some vape carts from Clean Leaf up in Logan, and he’s got a CBG/CBD vape cart that is strong. And another, CBN. There’s a vape cart-
Toby Larson:
So explain those to me because I-
Tim Pickett:
Jilu has a vape cart in Bountiful that’s one-to-one THC and CBG. So it’s half CBG. That’s a strong vape cart and totally medical product. You’re not going to find that in Vegas.
Chris Holifield:
At Wholesome?
Tim Pickett:
I know.
Chris Holifield:
That’s at Wholesome?
Tim Pickett:
Yeah, that’s at Wholesome.
Toby Larson:
Explain to me how the CBG and CBN and them … What are they providing? Because I’d be curious to know that so I could think of how I could use that from a performance setting.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I’ve been thinking about this while we’ve been talking. I would say CBG is anti-inflammatory, more so than CBD. So you would find a little more recovery potentially, especially as an older athlete with the CBG carts or CBG product. CBN is known to cause sleep and decreased anxiety. It’s more relaxing, so it would be beneficial for … We use it a lot for anxiety, PTSD, and sleep. But it’s the go-to for sleep. When you leave your weed out in the car and it gets old and hot, a lot of the THC becomes CBN. And so old weed causes you to go to sleep, and it’s because of the CBN.
Tim Pickett:
So if you can pinpoint products like that, then you could, I guess, manipulate that for recovery. Maybe CBG and CBN would be great. The CBD is that universal kind that works for everything. It fits into a lot of receptors pretty well. So mix that with a little THC at all the points. Then you have delta-8, which is controversial somewhat. In fact, we’ve just recorded another video on Discover Marijuana about delta-8 specifically, that’ll come out in about a month, that absorbs more peripherally, won’t get you quite the head high, so could be good for recovery. Could be really good for recovery. Might not be the right thing for skill acquisition because you don’t quite get the psychoactivity you might be looking for.
Toby Larson:
Oh. So when we think about anxiety in a performance environment, or in a skill acquisition environment, if you’re doing reps to improve your skill, there is a performance element in that, even though your purpose is learning. But the anxiety will either come bottom up, which means that your nerves are basically being generated from the sensors in your skin and in your muscles, and then that creates the brain response and the anxiety response. There’s also top-down anxiety, which is generated from either your lack of confidence in your own skills, or confusion in your mind about what it is you’re trying to do, various elements. But then that then starts in the brain and then causes trembling down into the feet, down into the hands, causes different coordination that way.
Toby Larson:
So it’s interesting. I wonder if the CBG, if you were an athlete who tended to be just fine, and then all of a sudden, whatever it is, the trail hits you the wrong way or something happens, and then, all of a sudden, now that gets you off-track and gets you thinking the wrong way, thinking in a detracted way, where instead of your brain being really focused on the results of the actions that you’re trying to create, second by second, it’s now created on how you’re doing it. What are you doing? Is what I’m doing okay? If we shut that off, that person would be really benefited by that immensely.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. You could use delta-8 essentially for that peripheral pain control. That may be the bottom-up piece, if I’m hearing you correctly. The delta-9, there’s a Fruit of Life or a Forbidden Fruit cart Zion makes that’s delta-8, and I think keeping a journal during these activities with different products is probably the only way to do it. Here’s how I’m feeling before, here’s how I’m feeling during, here’s how I’m feeling after with these different products. But delta-8 is a really interesting product, too, because it’s not quite as psychoactive, but it’s a THC, and it’s absorbing peripherally. We use it a lot for nausea, GI issues, and peripheral pain control in patients who don’t want to get high.
Toby Larson:
Gorilla glue has actually been my-
Chris Holifield:
That’s a good one.
Toby Larson:
… last four pushing myself off a cliffs with.
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Very anti-anxiety. A little heavier indica strain.
Toby Larson:
I know. I would’ve thought it would’ve been a sativa, in all honesty. But it was like-
Tim Pickett:
It could be the terpene profile on that anti-anxiety portion of it could work really well.
Toby Larson:
Yeah. It really is fantastic with that. And then I found the ski train, it is … Oh, gosh. Now I forgot … S’mores.
Tim Pickett:
S’mores?
Chris Holifield:
S’mores. Yeah.
Toby Larson:
Yeah. For me, it gives a temporal distortion. I think what’s going on with the temporal distortion is that it creates this hyper focus, so I’m really not hearing or recognizing too much in my periphery. And so, for high-speed tree skiing, that’s fantastic, because, really, you only want to be looking … You want to be planning-
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. One or two turns.
Toby Larson:
… third turn from now so that I can make sure that this turn and the next turn allows me to make that third turn. And that’s just all the way down the hill until you’re too tired or you miss.
Tim Pickett:
Right.
Toby Larson:
You reach that one way or the other and get going again. It’s been interesting. I found those two strains have been kind of ideal. Now, predictability of those two strains being available has been less than ideal, but better than it was two years ago, I would say.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. I was going to say, that S’mores, though, I haven’t seen that. I don’t know.
Tim Pickett:
No, I haven’t seen it, either.
Chris Holifield:
That was a Tryke. That looked like a Tryke-
Toby Larson:
Yeah.
Chris Holifield:
… label. Where did you pick that up at?
Toby Larson:
I think that one came from across the street.
Chris Holifield:
Really?
Tim Pickett:
Beehive.
Chris Holifield:
Beehive.
Toby Larson:
But it might’ve been Dragonfly.
Chris Holifield:
Okay. I’ll have to keep an eye out for that. Yeah.
Toby Larson:
Those are the two I go to. I look online to see who actually has product in stock.
Tim Pickett:
You’re doing it the right way. Look online before you go.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. I always do. Put it on hold, too, you know?
Tim Pickett:
Oh, yeah. That’s a good idea.
Chris Holifield:
And especially Beehive will hold it for 48 hours. [crosstalk 00:56:17]-
Tim Pickett:
Yeah. And if you’re concerned, if you’re somebody who buys a significant amount, you might want to look on EVS, too, and make sure you’ve got enough purchasing ability to buy what you need. We’ve been running into a little bit of an issue with the upgraded … I would call it upgraded, but it’s an enhanced security measure at the pharmacies, where they’re checking all the dosing before they sell you the product. You need to make sure that you’re checking on how much you can purchase before you go. This has been awesome, Chris.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. Is there anything you were wanting to talk about before we wrap this episode up, or anything as we wind it down or anything?
Toby Larson:
No, this has been fantastic. I would say, I think we all need to really push the state to let us grow five plants.
Chris Holifield:
I agree.
Toby Larson:
Even if there’s a quarterly license you got to pay to maintain it so that the state gets their cut, I just hope that’s down the road for us. Like I told you, I had a supplier who was a terminal cancer patient, brain cancer. I can’t imagine for somebody like that, not being able to grow their own and just cultivate in their own backyard. I think there is a dignity of life that we’re denying those people. That breaks my heart that we do that in this state of all states. So that would be the only thing I would want to add.
Chris Holifield:
I wonder how hard … because, I mean, that would be quite hard to track, growing, wouldn’t it? Because I know that’s a big thing in Utah. They love to track it seed to sale.
Tim Pickett:
They love to track it. Yes.
Chris Holifield:
So it’s like if you grew it at home, how would they track it?
Toby Larson:
Maybe we started-
Tim Pickett:
When they get the drones and they’re surveying us, then they’ll be able to track it, hopefully.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah.
Toby Larson:
Maybe we just start it with the terminal cancer patients, and maybe it only goes to them. But maybe we realize, hey, maybe there’s a segment of our medical users we should admit that their situation is vastly different than the rest of ours, and we should give them a little-
Tim Pickett:
Sure.
Chris Holifield:
Oh, I agree.
Toby Larson:
… different.
Chris Holifield:
I just think-
Tim Pickett:
There’s a …
Chris Holifield:
Oh. Go ahead.
Tim Pickett:
There’s a good program. You mentioned terminal cancer patients. I want to bring up that Utah Patients Coalition has a terminal cancer program, subsidy program. If you know somebody with terminal cancer, go to the Utah Patients Coalition website, apply for the subsidy program, especially if that patient can’t afford their product, can’t afford their doctor visits. We are involved in that, in Utah Therapeutic. If patients need help with that, it’s a good program.
Chris Holifield:
Very cool. How can listeners get ahold of you, Toby? Or can they? I mean, is there-
Toby Larson:
Yeah.
Chris Holifield:
… a way that people can locate you, or Instagram, Facebook … I don’t know. Whatever.
Toby Larson:
Yeah. I think the best is probably … I don’t really do too much on social media, but I have an Instagram account. It’s @fitmindtraining, and if you’re curious about seeing work I’ve done, you can look at the tags. A lot of athletes I work with tag me there. I have some ski videos up there if you want to see how terrible I am. And mountain bike videos. I need to get more consistent in using my GoPro so I can have a better crash reel. My best racks, I don’t have it on. I didn’t have it on for this, unfortunately, and I think it would’ve been some enjoyable footage. Certainly, footage of me not crashing, I think is less entertaining. But, yeah, that’s probably the best way to get ahold of me.
Toby Larson:
I’m working with primarily pro MMA athletes, but if you’re an athlete looking to improve your fitness, improve your health, through athletics, through skill acquisition, or you’re just looking to have more fun at whatever sport you’re doing, for sure reach out. It’d be fun to chat with people that are in the same activities as me. And absolutely stop me if you see me on a trail or a ski hill.
Chris Holifield:
Go let him know you heard him on the podcast, right? That’s what I always tell people. Anything else you want to mention on this episode, Tim, before we wrap this up?
Tim Pickett:
No, this has been a great conversation. Thanks for coming out.
Chris Holifield:
Yeah. Thank you.
Toby Larson:
Thank you guys for what you do. Destigmatizing is such an important thing, and I appreciate this, the work that you guys do.
Chris Holifield:
Well, thank you.
Toby Larson:
Podcasts aren’t easy to do, and consistency is probably the hardest thing.
Chris Holifield:
How did you find this podcast?
Toby Larson:
I actually found you guys through … I think it was through Dragonfly’s blog.
Chris Holifield:
Okay. Yeah.
Tim Pickett:
Nice.
Chris Holifield:
Very cool. I always like-
Tim Pickett:
That is really great.
Chris Holifield:
… to ask people how they found it. Well, cool.
Toby Larson:
It was Instagram. I saw you guys were tagged on-
Chris Holifield:
Somebody’s post.
Toby Larson:
Yeah.
Chris Holifield:
Somebody’s post. We’re tagged on a lot of posts.
Tim Pickett:
We’re tagged on it.
Chris Holifield:
Very cool. Yeah. Go to UtahMarijuana.org/podcasts. That’s where you can listen to all the podcasts. Subscribe in your favorite podcast app.
Tim Pickett:
Reach out to us if you need to at UtahMarijuana.org, and stay safe out there.
