Podcast Transcript

Tim Pickett:

Episode 74 coming at you, Utah in the Weeds. This is the podcast about Utah cannabis and cannabis culture. Today, I’m talking to Wesley Spridgeon and Dr. Justin Czerniawski. He is the head of research and development for a company called Rad Source. Rad Source is located in Georgia and they have a low-intensity x-ray technology that they are using to decontaminate cannabis. I’m geeking out in this conversation because it’s about your flower that has grown and has contamination in it that we all know exists, some of this is normal and natural, but remember when we inhale cannabis, we are not filtering it the same way as the gut does. And so that’s why this is important to have good testing on your flower and to not buy flower on the black market because you don’t know where it was grown, you don’t know what chemicals they’re putting on that stuff. If nothing else comes out of this, clean cannabis is really much, much better.

Tim Pickett:

Just know that in Utah, there has been testing done without microbial testing because there’s a global shortage of these pipettes. There’s this global shortage of these pipettes. And if we can’t get the pipettes, we can’t do the test. And so they’ve decided not to do some of the microbial testing. This has nothing to do, commenters, I know, this has nothing to do with any of the growers or processors here in Utah, this is a Department of Agriculture thing. So just know that this is happening when you’re listening to this podcast episode and this conversation about decontaminating that cannabis and those products, maybe this would be a good idea for us, especially if there’s going to be a global shortage and we are not going to test for microbials or some microbials.

Tim Pickett:

Anyway, that was long-winded housekeeping. Make sure you’re subscribed to the podcast on any podcast player that you listen to podcasts on. Again, go to Utahmarijuana.org/podcast. There’s transcripts, and articles, and subscribe to Discover Marijuana on YouTube. I know that’s a lot to remember, but if you want to get ahold of me, you want to be a guest on the show, the requirement is, I guess, go to Discover Marijuana on YouTube, comment on one of those videos, ask away. We look at all of those. Enjoy this conversation with Wesley Spridgeon and Justin Czerniawski from Rad Source. Learn a little bit about cannabis and microbial decontamination today. Here we go.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. I’m excited about this conversation because I think I’m interested to know if you guys think there’s more microbial contamination in Medical Cannabis than people realize. Is it like one of those things where once you start looking for bedbugs, you start finding them everywhere?

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Yeah. I mean, I think that’s … I hate to say it, but the same environment that grows the best marijuana, grows microbials. So they’re there. I mean, even some of the more sterile customers that we’ve seen have problems having an occasional breakout. And I think one of the things that we care about the most is informing people on public health problems. The thing that we like about our technology is that we’re the best solution in the sense that it gets your microbial counts down so low, you don’t have to worry anymore.

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Part of what I think Wes put on his topics of discussion is secret shopper program. I think that one is huge that the states have started implementing that. The basically just random pickings off the shelf and retesting. And oftentimes if you’re just barely below the limits, when your product is going out, it will grow back by the time they come out and do the secret shopper. And so getting that as low as possible without compromising the integrity of your products and all the medicinal qualities of the product has to be paramount. And that’s the nice thing about our technology is that’s what it does.

Tim Pickett:

Where are you guys located?

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

We’re in Buford, Georgia. It’s just north of Atlanta by the largest manmade lake I believe, Lake Lanier.

Tim Pickett:

The largest manmade lake?

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

I don’t know if that’s true anymore, but I think at one time it was. Yeah, we have a large manmade lake here called Lake Lanier and we’re right by that.

Tim Pickett:

Okay. So talk to me about Rad Source Technologies. What is Rad Source Technologies? What do you guys do?

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Sure. The company started in ‘97. The goal of the company and the founder, Randy Kirk, he wanted to find a viable alternative to radioactive isotopes. With all the terrorism and stuff in the world, radioactive isotopes are kind of no longer becoming a viable option for decontamination and remediation with photons specifically. They create what people refer to as gamma rays. It’s just a very high-energy photon. And so what he found was that you could get similar effects with x-ray. So just a little bit lower in energy on the spectrum, similar mechanism of action, but unlike a radioactive isotope, you can turn it on and off like a light bulb. So we like to pride ourselves on being a very high-power light bulb.

Tim Pickett:

Like a light bulb that will shine through stuff?

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Yeah, right. So there’s two kinds of things going on. So your photons are going in and they’re hitting the stuff that you don’t want. We started off in blood. So we’re actually a medical device company for our blood irradiator, and we took those same principles and move them into different verticals. So we’ve got blood where we take the white blood cells. So I can’t just donate blood and give it to you, I have to get rid of the white blood cells because my white blood cells will look like an infection to your body. So we actually just destroy the white blood cells, but preserve the red blood cells. And that allows people with immunocompromised systems to get blood transplants without having to worry about graft versus host disease. So very awesome industry to start out in.

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

We’ve also been involved in small animal radiation and cancer research. That’s one of our other larger verticals. Basically, any major cancer facility, cancer research facility has one of our units. We do sterile insect technique. That is where you take the male insects, you sexually sterilize it, release it back into the population, and then it prevents pest populations from getting too out of hand and destroying stuff.

Tim Pickett:

This is like what they’ve done with mosquitoes.

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Exactly. So we’re actually working with a group … We have an entomologist on staff who is working with a group working on that for Zika and yellow fever and stuff like that, malaria, things like that. So mosquito control is definitely one. Screw-worm is one we’ve done in the past. I think we do some moths as well, some pest moth control. We also do things like cell research. The coolest application I’ve heard for this one is there’s a group that we work with, they take a gene sequence out and they edit it and they put it back into patients and cure things like color blindness. So yeah, just like really cool stuff that people do with our machines.

Tim Pickett:

[inaudible 00:08:03]

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Yeah. And some of the newer things that we got into was cannabis. Specifically, it started with medicinal cannabis. The reason we got into that market was because similar technology has been used … This high-energy photon technology has been used in the Netherlands and some other countries that have had legal cannabis for a while. They just use these large gamma facilities. We thought, well, we can do the same thing that these gamma rays do, but we don’t have to have the radioactivity. That’s actually the most important part of our technology is we can directly replace these radioactive isotopes and people like the FBI love us.

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

There’s also all these programs that are government-sponsored, especially in the blood side that a lot of our company and other x-ray companies participate in where the government will actually help research institutes and blood institutes replace their units, their gamma units. They’ll take their isotope sources out where they’ve got to have the military come help and take them out and they replaced them with our unit and all of a sudden all that security goes away. All you need to do is just register the x-ray tube as if it’s a dental x-ray. Very similar to what you do in the dentist. And that’s it. You just [crosstalk 00:09:26].

Tim Pickett:

Because you can’t use your technology to build a bomb.

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Correct.

Tim Pickett:

[inaudible 00:09:31].

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Right, nobody can steal our technology and spread it over half a block and kill millions of people. Yeah, that’s not just possible.

Tim Pickett:

That’s cool.

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Yeah. So that’s the philosophy behind Rad Source and that’s why it was started. That’s why our company exists. We’ve been very successful at it. We have the pioneering technology in x-ray. It really hasn’t changed much since it was invented until our company came along. So we have a patented x-ray tube that we protect very vigorously. And yeah, it’s been great, awesome technology.

Tim Pickett:

With cannabis, how are you using that technology to help? Essentially, you’re reducing bugs on the plant.

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Yeah, the microbes specifically. What we do is we add things like Aspergillus, Fusarium, things like that, powdery mildew. Basically, the mechanism of action to keep it simple is you have these high-energy photons that go in and they interact with the DNA of the pathogen. And DNA is so critical to these single celled organisms, once it’s destroyed, they basically self-destruct. And so we have created this technology where the wavelength is fine-tuned enough to leave all the stuff you care about, the cannabinoids, the Terpenes, the look, the actual physical look of the product, but specifically targets the microbes themselves.

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Now, I will say, as a whole, remediation techniques because this is usually done on dry flower, there is no mechanical action to our product. And that’s actually true of all remediation techniques. So if anybody tries to tell you, “Oh, we can actually physically remove things from the plant.” That’s not true. And actually one of the benefits of our technology is the way it looks going in is the way it looks coming out. So if you have beautiful product that you’ve spent all this time trying to perfect, when it goes in, it will come out looking the exact same with all the wonderful colors, the smells. All that stuff is preserved because it’s not touched.

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

There’s no tumbling action. There’s no motion to our mechanism as well. The photons are actually able to penetrate through packaging. And so once you have your product and its packaged, you can just put it in the machine, run it and take it out. It doesn’t have to be tumbled, it doesn’t have to be opened and then resealed. It’s all done just by the fact that the photons are so small, they can penetrate through pretty much everything and then hit the product or hit what you don’t want in your product.

Tim Pickett:

I’m thinking about cannabis flower, but you’re talking about all types of products really. But primarily, we’re dealing with cannabis flower because you grow it, you test it, ah, crap! It’s got some microbial contamination. We’re either going to have to throw it out or we’re going to have to do something else with it, but we want to use it. Is that when you guys come in?

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Yeah. So our goal is to preserve the most valuable part of the grow, which is the flower, the whole flower. So exactly, you go through your process, you harvest, you dry. Post-harvest, you send it off to a lab, you find that your CFU count, your colony-forming unit count is above whatever your state threshold is. Typical state threshold’s around 10,000 CFU. And you say, “Oh no.” In some states, the regulations are so tough. If you fail one time, you have to immediately send your product to extraction, which means you’re getting pennies on the dollar. So what we recommend is to run your products through a remediation device like our photon unit, and then you don’t even have to worry about it. I think we have, and Wes can speak to this, we have numerous case studies that show essentially a 99.9% passing. I don’t even know. And we’d have to check if our marketing team can confirm this, but I think we’re at 99.99 now.

Tim Pickett:

So then you go through this process, you go to track all these people and you say, “Hey, before you even send your flower for testing, why don’t you run it through our system? Blast it. And then you can essentially guarantee yourself passing.”

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Yeah. And actually what’s really nice about our products and a disadvantage of the larger gamma systems that have been in place is we’re actually fine-tuning it to your specific product. There’s no need to just do this one-size-fits-all blast. It’s actually a fine-tuned exposure that your product sees. Essentially, what you can do is run a few tests and say, “Hey, when do I get down to the microbial level that to me is acceptable?” And we’ve seen microbial levels as low as the machine reading zero, non-detectable. Basically, so low that it’s below the threshold that the actual testing unit can register.

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

That’s actually the most important part that we think our technology brings to the table because you can get to those levels without compromising any of the product’s integrity. What we’ve seen is that any decrease is not only within the margin of error, but oftentimes is contributed to just the natural outgassing of the product itself. There’s very little contribution from acceleration, from the actual process, because we’re a cold process. There’s no heat, there’s no chemicals, nothing. It’s just the photons taking their energy and distributing it into the pathogen. Very nice. And now, we actually have, while we primarily focus on the products, we actually have had customers who use it on extraction as well. There was a customer with a salmonella outbreak who uses our units to clear their oils of salmonella.

Tim Pickett:

Okay. Let me back up here. Let me make sense of this. If I’m blasting it and I’m tailoring that energy that’s hitting my flower or my oil or my product, and it is destroying the DNA and therefore, destroying the life that exists in that fungus, the microbial, the pathogen as you call it, right? And we’re leaving a little bit of residue. We’re the building blocks behind. Is there any danger in leaving that stuff behind?

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Good question. There is a lot of research and debate on this topic in particular. It’s actually really not clear as to what people agree or disagree on. We have had people, concerned customers and concerned consumers, especially at shows, come up to all the remediation booths, whether you’re talking our technology or competitor technologies and ask the same question. Because like I mentioned, there’s no mechanical removal of anything, right?

Tim Pickett:

Right.

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

So essentially, what you’re kind of leaving behind is like the carcass of whatever this is. Some people have claimed that they have sensitivity to it, which we completely understand. And some people have claimed there is no effect and they don’t feel anything. It’s a very heated topic, very heated debates. One thing that we have going for a remediation as a whole is that, especially x-ray and photon technologies, is that it’s used in food, it’s used in blood, and it’s used in all of these other industries where there is a much higher risk and there’s also consumption. You can trust the technology that is used in the medical field for blood. If people are using this technology on blood and then that blood is then being put in, especially immunocompromised patients with high levels of success, so much so that now they are moving all blood essentially to this exposed technology.

Tim Pickett:

Well, I worked in trauma for years, in GI surgery for years. I mean, we’d call for blood and it would be a long time for the testing and all of these things. And if I didn’t have the right type of blood and I didn’t have a cross-match unit of blood, I mean, we were in trouble. If we had access to a process that would make it a little safer for the patient, I mean, there’s no question, right?

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Right.

Tim Pickett:

And at that point, although I would say in a life or death situation, you’re going to make decisions in medicine where you’re going to choose a little bit of risk in order to protect the patient’s life and you’re going to deal with the consequences later. I agree with you that using this process on blood does make it seem like it is something that is safe for consumption.

Tim Pickett:

When we talk about it on food, I’ll push back a little bit and say, “Well, the acidity of the stomach is so … It’s so acidic.” And we put, I mean, shoot, you could eat, I mean, kids eat dirt, right? They play in the gutter and then they lick their fingers and most of them survive. That’s an environment that’s going to protect themselves on their own. Inhaling flower is to me probably less risky than treating the blood product. And so in that case, you’re leaving over a little bit of byproduct, but this is microscopic. This is stuff that’s in the environment anyway likely, right? These building blocks of these things are in the environment everywhere.

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Yeah. Cells die every day and they’re floating around in the air. So it’s really no different than what you’re breathing every day. And what’s really nice about some of the studies we’ve done is we create no new products that show up on things like chromatograms. So we can run a chromatogram on the product prior to treatment and after treatment and you see no new added peaks. So that means that, you know …

Tim Pickett:

You’ve hit the nail.

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

… at least in terms of the sensitivity of the machine, there’s nothing new being contributed to the product.

Tim Pickett:

And now you bring up this, you know, when we’re talking about semi synthetics in cannabis, and we’re talking about processing CBD into Delta-8 and Delta-9 and leftover isomers, we could go down this whole rabbit hole of …

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Absolutely.

Tim Pickett:

… ingesting all these products that people are pissed about and-

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Even as simple as putting a terpenes back into products because, for instance, some of our competitors technologies wipe out all the terpene smell. So they have to artificially dope it back in order to get it to smell like anything.

Tim Pickett:

So they’re essentially spraying the flower with something. And I’ve heard a lot about this.

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Yeah.

Tim Pickett:

Sometimes they’re adding THC to this stuff, right? They’re essentially making moon rocks.

Wesley Spridgeon:

Yeah. I’ve heard quite a few cultivators. Can you guys hear me a little bit better?

Tim Pickett:

Wes, you’re on, you’re on. So Wesley Spridgeon. And you Wes, this is perfect timing to bring you into the conversation and we’ll just edit that trashcan sound out from before.

Wesley Spridgeon:

Perfect.

Tim Pickett:

Perfect.

Wesley Spridgeon:

Yeah.

Tim Pickett:

So tell us what you do specifically, Wes, because you’re located in Utah and if it’s okay for me to say, you’re a Utah Medical Cannabis patient.

Wesley Spridgeon:

That is correct, yes. And I’m proud of that fact. To be quite honest, I’m proud to be part of the community where through the hoops that had to be jumped through, it’s now provided as a viable option for patients. And for me, I have no problem whatsoever advocating and also admitting that I am a patient because of the fact that, I mean, people, they glorify and glamorize benzos and other type of medication all day long. You know, so if you’re having a hard time on a flight, pop in Ambien and it’s okay. And so for me, I want to take this opportunity in this society to be able to actually advocate for the medicine that helps us that isn’t quite to that level. So I have no problem saying that, so I appreciate you bringing that up.

Tim Pickett:

In the Utah market, are you working here with Utah growers or are you mostly out of state?

Wesley Spridgeon:

Both. I live here in Utah and so I do work with the local Utah market, obviously, with only eight cultivation licenses. It’s a little bit less quantity of individuals to work with compared to Oklahoma with 6,000 right out of the gate. However, I am working right now to basically perpetuate this education for what we do and also what it can contribute to the patients because there are a lot of other markets that are quite frankly taking this a lot more seriously, and it has created different business models and also just different opportunities for the patients to have a little bit more transparency with the medicine they’re receiving.

Tim Pickett:

Talk about that. Why would you say Utah is not necessarily taking this as serious as they should?

Wesley Spridgeon:

I don’t want to sit here and blame Utah. I think that Utah is taking a very reserved approach, you know, looking at other states. And I can appreciate that definitely because we’ve seen what happens in some of the states like Washington, or Oregon, or the Wild West. So many efforts are put forth to cultivate and then they had to retract back on all the regulations because nobody could pass the testing. That just hinders the medical community, any true patient. That’s not a good move for the patients. Great for recreational, not great for medical. And so what we’re trying to do is basically I think Utah, I don’t think that they are doing anything wrong, per se. I just think they’re just so slow to implement some of the more stringent protocols that other states have done. And with that being said, I think that there’s a couple of things. Obviously, you’re aware that they don’t have requirements for terpene listings quite yet here in Utah.

Tim Pickett:

Working on that a little bit in the background with a couple of boards and medical advisory panels and things, but there’s no requirement in Utah right now for terpene testing or terpene labeling of any products.

Wesley Spridgeon:

Correct. I think that’s a huge detriment to the patient society, to the actual medical community. Because that’s, as we all know, that’s where the medicine truly derives. And so I feel like if we can really start targeting some of those changes and the way that the state requires testing, not only just for the terpene, but also for microbial. We’re currently using a model that’s based off of the federal pharmacopoeia standards. I can understand why you would think, okay, the federal standards should be bolstered enough, but let’s be honest, the federal pharmacopoeia, that industry is slightly different than cannabis in the way that you produce it and consume it.

Wesley Spridgeon:

And so I feel like when we have regulations for other earth-grown products, you know, with our teas and spices and things of that nature, not from a federal standpoint, obviously with the FDA, we can’t do that currently because of the state of cannabis, but it’s a little silly to implement a federal regulation on something that can’t be federally regulated, you know, using that guideline. It would make more sense to take the states that have bolstered that regulation and had implemented a little bit more of a strict guideline just because again, when we come down to it at the end of the day, it’s the patients that are impacted by this. Obviously, the businesses can be impacted by what they are allowed to test and sell based on their failure rates, which is another thing we can get into. But my biggest topic here is the fact that I want patients to have healthy product.

Tim Pickett:

Well, what is the federal guideline? Is that 10,000 … Justin was talking about what is the level that’s appropriately allowed. Is it a level? What does Utah use?

Wesley Spridgeon:

Based off of the federal statute that Utah uses, it is 10,000 and then it is the absence of E. coli and salmonella, but they also break it down into three categories. So they break it down into the actual consumable flower product, the concentrates, and then topicals. So for the subdermal patches, things of that nature or transdermal patches, excuse me, those fall under a different guideline under the pharmacology regulations. As far as I know, this isn’t necessarily unheard of in the industry. A lot of states actually started with that because it’s a good guideline to work with. However, it’s the states that have done a little bit more testing.

Wesley Spridgeon:

For example, we have a couple of states where they have actually had individuals go through with a secret shopper program to really hold the accountability. Because as we all know, business is business and testing labs are our business. And so at the end of the day, there can be issues with the bureaucracy of testing labs and with different growers behind the scenes. There’s a company called the Errl Cup. They do an actual cup in Arizona where they award brands and dispensaries for having quality medicinal products for the patients.

Wesley Spridgeon:

What they do is they go into the markets and they buy products and some companies will willingly submit this product to them for testing and they’ll test it well after it was originally tested to make sure that nothing has grown while it’s been sitting on the shelf. And also to make sure that for whatever reason, if the testing results were skewed by anybody, like you mentioned, the little moon rock situation. I’ve had cultivators tell me, “Yeah, we have people that will take a bag and before they grab a couple of grams to test, they’ll just dump a bunch of kief in it and shake it up.” And now you have completely altered results for every part of the spectrum. If that’s being done in the medical community, whether or not that happens to recreational, that’s a different argument, but for medical, that’s a big problem.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. That seems like patients … I mean, for my patients, I want them to go down and I want them to get the cleanest product possible that’s tested. And if they’re going to use flower, because we’re kind of on this and they’re going to inhale something into the lung tissue and directly into the bloodstream, this is a big deal. When I work in the emergency department and we order these medications that are inhaled that way and atomized, I mean, we expect pure medication. I would never even consider that in the hospital I would give or order a contaminated product even to the level of whatever that 10,000 units are. Like they’re zero, right?

Wesley Spridgeon:

Zero.

Tim Pickett:

I want albuterol with zero contamination. I want a nebulized medication with zero contamination. So as close as I can get to that, understanding that this is a grown product and that there might be … I guess, I mean, do we allow any? Justin, do you think you should allow any contamination at all? Any of this? Is there a level that you think is safe?

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Yeah. That’s why we’re such obviously big advocates of this technology is it’s the only technology that’s going to get you to those near zero levels, too few to detect levels without altering the product. I mean, there are no other processes, remediation processes that are going to do that. And of course, going back to your statement about people with sensitivities or people’s sensitivities, what’s left over, that kind of thing. Nobody ever advocates for growing dirty product. And this isn’t an excuse to grow dirty product. We never see it that way. What we do is we say, look, we understand that this is, like you said, Tim, a natural product that grows and is oftentimes outside or even in your super fancy, bazillion dollar, clean room grow house stuff happens. Right. But that shouldn’t punish a company. We don’t advocate for you to grow dirty stuff. We just say, Hey, we’re the answer. If you can’t get it to the levels that you need to.

Tim Pickett:

Okay. Totally understand that. And I was going to ask if you advocate for pre-treating all this product, but apparently I would … I mean, I would say if I was working for you, I would advocate for pre-treating everything, might as well.

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Well, we see it as an insurance policy, honestly. We really do. I mean, especially in states where the punishment is much greater than a lot of states. Some states you get a couple of tries to do your testing, but there are a few states where it’s one strike and you have to send your product to extraction. And obviously those states, there’s a lot more risk for them. However, we get a lot of feedback, even from testing labs that say, “You make our job easier because we know companies that use your product will pass their tests. No questions asked.”

Tim Pickett:

You can’t set up this process in one state and then ship all your product to that state and then treat it and then ship it back now, can you? You’ve got to have this-

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Well, I’m pretty sure the federal government would have something to say about shipping drugs across lines. We’ll see, but …

Tim Pickett:

But you’ve got to set this up in every … Is there a scalability issue for you guys? Like, is this really expensive or do each of the growers set up their own individual … Like, how do the logistics work if I’m a grower and I want to use the technology?

Wesley Spridgeon:

That’s a great question. And honestly, one of the beautiful aspects of our technology, because it was designed to be vertically integrated into the business, it’s created two different business models. You have the vertically integrated company, whether they’re a craft business that just buys a very small version of our machine to process just their own product. Or if you have a bigger company, like a multi-state operator, which we work with quite a few, and then they can buy eight machines and throw them in them warehouse and process for their community. It just depends on the area. Some states don’t allow you to transport. But realistically, it’s worked in favor in both directions for our company because we started out as just a single, vertically integrated gamma and x-ray device manufacturer to begin with. And so it works very well that we have different sizes available for individuals for whatever their needs are.

Tim Pickett:

Are there companies that are doing better than others?

Wesley Spridgeon:

I mean, I believe that there are. I personally believe that Utah, whether or not a company is successful currently or not, is not directly correlating to their failure rates of microbials. I’m sure they’re witnessing that. That’s not what it is right now. That will change though. As you are probably already aware, you’re familiar with some of the cultivators here. They have some outdoor crops that are actually going to becoming viable very soon and what we see in every state, I’m not exaggerating here, on every state that we operate, any outdoor crop will fail. And it’s not to say anything bad about the grower at all. It’s just what it is. It’s just exposed to the elements. And so it’s inherent with it, unfortunately. And that’s another aspect of the business that this technology provides. Because if a business is looking at it from a patient perspective, of course, yes, using our technology is going to provide that product and it’s going to keep it healthy and something that they can truly be proud to provide to their patient.

Wesley Spridgeon:

But if it’s just business and they’re talking about money, the other factor is this, you have cultivators right now that are about to have literally hundreds of pounds of cannabis ready for wholesale and process. And what we have seen in every state that we operate is that there comes a point in time where when the regulations all of a sudden are highlighted for the company when they fail a test, they now have X amount of product that they can’t do anything with. And when I’ve been with cultivators that are sitting on 10,000 pounds of products that they can’t sell, they can’t do anything with, it is a major issue for their business, for their bottom line, aside from any of the patient aspects.

Wesley Spridgeon:

Now, if they have an option to remediate something to where they can still pass that testing, and it’s not by cheating, it’s actually eliminating what we’re trying to do so that the end product is still a viable product to the patient, that’s what we’re trying to advocate for. And here in Utah, I definitely see that coming up soon because of what’s going on. I definitely believe that the culture here in Utah, people, they really are passionate about what they do. And I don’t think there’s a single company that I’ve met personally that seems to be just completely after the money and trying to cut corners. So I definitely have to give them credit for that. I really want to make sure that’s known.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, I would agree with that. I think that there isn’t any companies in Utah who got licenses who are just out for the money. Of course, they all want to make money.

Wesley Spridgeon:

Of course.

Tim Pickett:

That fuels the fire so that we can expand and even grow better products and do better things, but you’re absolutely right. I mean, I know quite a few companies right now are sitting on the last bit of their harvest, just about ready to process that and to go send it for testing. And it makes complete sense this will come out, this podcast will release and these guys will have flower in the testing facility with the Department of Agriculture and it’s, like you say, it’ll probably fail if they don’t do anything about it first.

Wesley Spridgeon:

Yeah. And it’s unfortunate. And I don’t wish that upon anybody. By no means I wish that. It’s just what, what we see. I mean, it’s very, very common, especially with the new states because it’s all economy of scale. Once you scale up, that’s what happens. And that’s where Utah is right now. The cultivators are trying to reach that 100,000 square foot each so that we can add more cultivation licenses, but that will come with other hurdles and headaches. It’s something that they’ll have to keep in mind.

Tim Pickett:

Is there something that goes on the packaging when you guys treat the product or when you guys are involved that says, “Hey, this is … ” Is there any labeling? I guess my question should be, is there any labeling for microbial testing or like microbial levels?

Wesley Spridgeon:

[crosstalk 00:36:21]

Tim Pickett:

Not for cannabis at all?

Wesley Spridgeon:

Not for cannabis, yeah, not that I’m aware of, unless Justin knows of another state that’s implemented that. There’s Radura labels that are put on meats and other agricultural products that go in a radiation process, but they haven’t implemented that as a federal guideline.

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

And also gamma is different. A lot of the studies have been done with gamma that are one size fits all exposures. They don’t tune it. There are concerns of radiolytic products being formed that has nothing to do with the technique that we do. You know, we have plenty of studies that [crosstalk 00:36:57].

Tim Pickett:

So what’s on the milk and the meat, this is different?

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Yeah. Well, the technology itself, the principle, the technology, the science and technology in terms of effectiveness is the same. But what these gamma facilities do is they don’t … Because they can’t turn off or tune their product, they just run everything at the exact same way. So you might see a weird effect if you run a pound of meat or 10 pounds of meat through the product versus flowers. However, the flowers might need more levels of exposure so they don’t tune it to the meat, they tune it to the … And all that stuff too is also being studied. The FDA has also come out, especially when they release their regulations on drugs and has said, “Hey, you guys, you know, we freaked out when we wrote these original regulations way back in like the ‘60s.” And now, and even in drugs and spices, there’s no labeling requirements that the FDA even requires.

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

And cannabis, even though there are medicinal purposes, I mean, medicine is a drug, and so those guidelines would still hold true. And if anything, a food additive or a spice like cannabis in something, a brownie or a cookie or some sort of good would be an additive, it falls under the same regulatory category. I know the FDA has been revisiting and has even come out and said, “Hey, you know, we kind of fell prey to a lot of misconceptions about radiation as a whole, but x-ray is new.” And the technology in x-ray is so new, while you can apply the principles to it, the studies have to be done specifically for different products. And actually we’re working with a lot of what we call champions to try to get those things and those, especially the misconceptions, that’s the biggest problem, misconceptions.

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Everybody thinks radioactivity, gamma rays, the Hulk. That is not what this product is. This is an x-ray. It’s a low energy x-ray people. I understand people have weird feelings sometimes about going to the dentist and getting their teeth drilled, but I very, very much doubt that if you have a broken arm or if you get your mouth x-ray, you walk out of there feeling like you’re going to turn into the Hulk. So very similar type of technology to that. People try to take gamma misconceptions and apply them to x-ray. Those are just not valid comparisons.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. I think that’s going to be the biggest thing that comes out of our discussion is this question that we essentially keep answering in different ways, and that is that safety, right?

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Right.

Tim Pickett:

I’m not going to turn green by using the cannabis that’s been treated, right? We’re not going to grow a third arm.

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

No.

Tim Pickett:

It’s fine.

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

The proof is in the charts, right? Because you’re testing, that comes back, and Wes has tons of tests across now, numerous states that show, we can get down to zero to non-detectable without altering the product. The chromatograms that show no new products formed. This is the safest method because not only are you getting your microbial levels down to the absolute lowest, you’re maintaining and maximizing the medicinal properties of the flower itself.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. That I think is what’s important is you have to, you have to remediate the flower. I mean, you cannot safely inhale these microbials, these funguses. We can all agree that’s bad. And if there’s a safe way to remove that, but keep my flower the same as it is, man, we should make this just required.

Wesley Spridgeon:

I mean, obviously, here at Rad Source, that’s our thought process. We have a lot of customers and a lot of labs and other states that they feel the same way. We have a lot of champions for us that we never talk to or ask for just because they believe in the same thing. And with Utah, it’s what you just mentioned about the inhaling of it. That’s something that I am truly concerned about because, as you know, here in the State of Utah, there is no flower to flame allowed, so you’re not allowed to actually smoke it. And one of the arguments has been that if there’s any mold on it had to burn-off, right?

Wesley Spridgeon:

Well, anybody here in Utah, that’s not happening. If you’re putting that in a vaporizer, it’s at a much lower temperature to decarb it to create that vapor than it is a flame. And we don’t know what the effects of that are. That’s an area of research that hasn’t even been done yet to my knowledge and that’s why other states are testing for emissions. They’re testing on vape cartridges and on any infused products. So our customers, they’ll take their infused pre-rolls and things like that and they’ll just put those straight into the machine. So that way, everything is taken care of, regardless if it was in their flower, in the paper that they rolled the joint with, or in the extract itself. All of it will be handled and that there is no detriment to the product. So it really is when it comes to Utah specifically, I really don’t know what it’s going to be like because those inhalants are going to be an issue if there’s any contaminants.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. You bring up a really interesting point about the no flame law because we’ve all been advocating for the no flame because it is “safer.” But I guess you don’t really know if the flame is maybe sterilizing some of those microbials out, right?

Wesley Spridgeon:

It’s the old school mentality.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, right. Yeah, just use a lighter, burn it.

Wesley Spridgeon:

Yeah.

Tim Pickett:

That’ll sterilize it. And maybe there’s something to that. I think this other thing we talked about, this secret shopper thing, that’s a really great idea. I would love to have somebody go test, go after the fact, go buy everything once, go test it. See what’s actually in there 30 days after it hit the shelf. See what all the levels are, what the terpenes are, what does this stuff look like, what’s growing and then make some regulations, then adjust the rules based on what is reality, not just what you thought would have been reality.

Wesley Spridgeon:

Exactly. I understand that it takes a market sometimes to figure that out. It’s very, very young still here in Utah, but the program that I mentioned to you and I can absolutely send you more information. The founder, Jim Morrison, he’s a phenomenal individual and what they do with that secret shopping program, it changed the whole culture. It wasn’t just holding the dispensaries accountable. It created a level of self-accountability where now people are providing their own product because now they have a whole event for it. Everybody gets together, they have an award ceremony. There’s people that win awards and things. At the end of the day, that was good for business and good for the patients because the patients are truly getting the best quality they can get. And so it’s definitely a good wave that’s kind of coming across to create that accountability. And I’m happy to be part of it.

Tim Pickett:

Do you guys ever see a time when there’s going to be something personal size where we can treat it? Because in Utah, you can’t grow your own. But this idea of what’s on, what bugs, what contamination, what’s in the soil, all of these things, this is one of the big reasons why Utah did not allow home grow in the beginning. And I think a lot of states are looking at that like, “Look, we’re going to inhale this stuff.” It’s not like eating a tomato out of your garden where there’s that acidic environment where we’re used to processing all of these things out and filtering things. The lungs don’t filter in that same way. Have you thought about what’s next for home grow and this personal application, or is that down the road?

Wesley Spridgeon:

Justin, I’ll let you speak to the technology there.

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Well, quite frankly, as these companies legalize, or as these states legalize more and more, and the market kind of drives costs, especially down to affordability, what we’ve seen is everything ends up starting in medical, but then rolls into recreational. Because why would you only want to be smoking safe product or consuming, safe product on the medicinal side? Why not roll that into recreational? And we have seen that. In Colorado, I believe that’s true. Michigan, I believe that’s true. The Northeast and the states that are legal there in New York, Boston, those areas, that’s true. Because again, the technology is there. The insurance policy is there. Why even risk it? Why put yourself in a position where you can be susceptible to secret shopper? Why give yourself a chance to inhale something that’s dangerous?

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Do we come out with a technology that a customer can buy and put in their home? I don’t know, maybe, it might be in our docket, but I think the most important part is the consumer and especially the medical consumer needs to know that what they’re consuming is safe and they should be concerned about that, especially when you’re in an immunocompromised state. There’s no question that a customer should know what they’re putting in their body.

Tim Pickett:

Wes, last question before we talk about how to get ahold of you guys. Do you have some favorite? Do you have a favorite product in Utah? A favorite flower?

Wesley Spridgeon:

You know, actually, I do. I’m glad you asked about that. It’s something I’ve been talking to some people recently. I feel bad to promote any particular company so I won’t say the cultivator’s name, but anybody who knows they’ll know that the strain, my favorite strain is tart pop.

Tim Pickett:

Tart pop.

Wesley Spridgeon:

Tart pop, yes.

Tim Pickett:

Is it pretty consistently available?

Wesley Spridgeon:

Yes, it is actually. It has been pretty consistently available lately.

Tim Pickett:

Good.

Wesley Spridgeon:

But I will say that’s one thing from a patient perspective in Utah. I mean, it is frustrating. It is very frustrating with the availability, and I can understand why there’s so much work being done in the background to try to expand that. So I appreciate that big time.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. Well, how do people connect with you? Wes, I’m guessing you’re the guy that if anybody wants to connect with, but we’ll let the physicist go do his physics things, although I’m sure if somebody has questions, you guys would answer them, right? Is there someplace people can go for more information on this topic particularly? Do you guys have a way for people to reach out to you?

Wesley Spridgeon:

Yes, absolutely. As far as Justin’s communication, I’ll let him speak to that. But for the company, obviously, radsource.com. You can just Google us even, just Rad Source Technologies. And there’s all sorts of information out there. As far as directly connecting to me, I am local. So I am available. I have a 385 number. I wasn’t cool enough to get an 801 number, but I can send you that information that you can pass along. I don’t know if I should say it out loud over the podcast.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, we can post it.

Wesley Spridgeon:

Okay. Yeah. If we could post it, I’ll give you that information. And yeah, just my name wspridgeon@radsource.com.

Tim Pickett:

Justin, any favorite articles or ways people can connect with your work?

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

So we have done a few podcasts and talks at MJBiz and some other places. Most of that stuff’s available on YouTube. Wes is your good point man. He’s got all the resources and got all the information and set anything up if you want to talk about science with me. I’m the science guy, he’s the sales guy. I’m the geeky stuff, he’s the market stuff. So if you want to talk about the science, hit up Wes. We’ll set something up and we’ll talk science all day.

Tim Pickett:

That’s awesome. Thanks guys for coming out. For everybody, you can look for us on utahmarijuana.org/podcast. You can download Utah in the Weeds at any podcast application that you can subscribe to podcasts on. Reach out to me, Tim Pickett at utahmarijuana.org. Thanks guys for coming on. This has been a great conversation. Really learned a lot today.

Dr. Justin Czerniawski:

Thanks, Tim.

Wesley Spridgeon:

Thanks so much, Tim.

Tim Pickett:

All right, everybody, stay safe out there.

Tim Pickett:
So how does … Do you have anything that is in the bill you just don’t like?

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
Well, we talked about the list of qualifying conditions. I’m trying to think back to what I had. I wish that there was easier access for patients 18 to 20. I think the 21 age thing is a little bit concerning. I will always have concern over limits on patients. I think that … And I have said this since the beginning. While the intention was to limit, like you said, doctor shopping, I think putting those limits actually had the paradoxical effect of him increasing that behavior and that’s really unfortunate. I would like-

Tim Pickett:
I could not agree more. I could not-

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
Right.

Tim Pickett:
As somebody who runs … We educate 30 medical providers. And on the one hand, we’ve been able to educate a lot more providers because of the limits so I can look at the good side and say, “You know what? There’s maybe 15 or 20 more medical providers out there now who understand medical cannabis a lot more than they would’ve before.”

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
Right.

Tim Pickett:
But from a patient care standpoint, it … We can get into this. I could talk about this all day, but it is not great for patient care to have to be limited on not being able to come see me. For example, is … You would think, well, I want to go see the person who I want to go see. I was referred to him-

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
Who’s the expert?

Tim Pickett:
Right. So I’m glad to hear you say that. I think that that’s something that I personally think that’s a big, big lift. I think that’s really, really going to be tough to change.

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
It is. Just as somebody who is an ardent advocate of the benefits of primary care in that continuity of care, I’m really, really hopeful that we can continue to work on better educating providers so that patients can stay with their primary care physician and get that continuity of care. I think that will lead to better outcomes. But the key really is getting providers comfortable with that. And you provide … People like you providing the education, and the information, and the knowledge base, but to tie it all together. So in an ideal world, it wouldn’t matter if we had limits because everybody would just be able to go to the provider that they want to go to and we wouldn’t need to put limits on it because everybody is where they’re supposed to be.

Tim Pickett:
I totally see that happening. Your bill also added the limited medical provider allowing providers who are not registered with the state to recommend medical cannabis for up to 15 of their patients, which could really be a … That is a … That’s a nice start for providers who aren’t comfortable with it and to get into it, right. To get that feedback from the patient.

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
Right. Just to clarify. That was Senator Escamilla’s bill, but thank you.

Tim Pickett:
Oh, okay, thank you.

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
I would love to have referred to it back to my bill.

Tim Pickett:
And that bill … Oh, yeah-

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
That was a great bill.

Tim Pickett:
And her bill also added the … Where we all have to now put our pricing on the web, right?

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
Yes. Transparency.

Tim Pickett:
Transparency.

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
Because there was a lot of … There were some bad actors who were really targeting the vulnerability and the desperation of patients who really needed their medication and so I think the transparency piece is big.

Tim Pickett:
We’ve heard stories of people going and showing up in an Office Max parking lot with $400, $500 cash to a provider who got them certified and then essentially just disappeared, or got them a letter and then just disappeared. It’s been … It’s surprising how bad it could get. And I chuckle and I feel terrible about that, but I think you really got to be desperate. The desperation to do that and to think that is okay is really too bad so I’m not opposed to those things at all. In the long run, access and education is really what we have to have. And now it feels like to me, you’re in a really, really great spot because you have a lot to do with the opioids and then you have a lot to do with the cannabis, and so you have the ability and now we get all these people on the controlled substance database. Was that your bill or Escamilla?

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
That was Escamilla.

Tim Pickett:
So then we get all these people on the controlled substance database and now you can do all your research.

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
That’s my hope in an ideal world, right. And then we just have to convince all the legislators to make sure that good data informs good policy. But if we did that … If we had that, we’d have a much better medical cannabis program in the state so we’re working on it.

Tim Pickett:
Do you feel like Utah’s Medical Cannabis program is one of the better programs that you’ve seen?

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
I guess it depends on how you define better. I think it’s better than what we used to have which was nothing. And going back to what you were saying about unscrupulous people taking advantage of desperate patients, and stealing from them, and tricking them. This was one of the main reasons we needed to have a medical cannabis program to start with because prior to that bill that was what was happening. People were … Patients were trying to get access to cannabis and they were meeting … Getting money … Hundreds, thousands of dollars stolen from them in parking lots. They were just hopeful that they might find somebody who could provide them with access to something that would help them with legitimate health concerns, knowing that it was illegal, knowing that they had to break the law to do it, and having no recourse when somebody stole something from them. And so the fact that this is still happening in the construct of our legal cannabis, medical cannabis program is deeply concerning and it just tells me that we’ve still got a lot of work to do.

Tim Pickett:
I agree. What else are you working on?

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
So I’ve, of course, got a medical cannabis bill file open. And one of the things that has come to my attention that I really hope we can focus on is to eliminate situations wherein custodial issues, parental custodial issues, that a patient who has a medical cannabis card, who is legally using medical cannabis, the other parent cannot use that cannabis use as a reason to limit access to their children.

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
I’ve heard some really harrowing stories of a father who is … Who has a significant pain problem well-controlled on medical cannabis, but his ex-wife insists that he have a claim drug screen before he can have unsupervised visitation with his own kids. And I mean, that’s just … That just … It doesn’t … It shouldn’t be that way. If he is under the care of a physician and receiving a medication … If he was on massive doses of opioids she wouldn’t be able to do that, and I would like to see an end to that. So that’s really one of my priorities right now is to make sure that people count weaponize prescribed cannabis against other people, especially in custody, and child, and divorce cases.

Tim Pickett:
I have a personal relationship with that type of case as well, and could not agree more-

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
It’s a travesty.

Tim Pickett:
That we’ve got to figure out ways to educate those people because like you say, you could have … You can have your Percocet bottle, your benzos all over, and that’s totally fine. You have a jar of cannabis flower on the table and now everything just changes based on what? I feel like we have good data.

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
It’s nonsensical.

Tim Pickett:
Do you feel like you’re going to get pushback from that?

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
Probably.

Tim Pickett:
Do you get pushback from-

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
But that’s what I do.

Tim Pickett:
Everything just because of the subject?

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
Pushback on everything just because.

Tim Pickett:
You’re like oh, you have a D.

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
It’s pretty rare that … I have a D by my name. And I admittedly … I run some … I run legislation that really pushes the envelope. Like I said, I feel like representing the district that I do, I think I have an obligation to run legislation that really takes people out of their comfort zone, that looks at really new policy areas. I run legislation that I sort of … I willingly inherited from representative Chavez-Houck, and that is end-of-life prescription options for terminally ill patients. This is the policy that I really believe in and runs up against a brick wall. But if we don’t run these bills, if we don’t have these conversations, we’re never going to get there. And so I think that this custody issue with regard to medical cannabis is definitely going to be a heavy lift, but in a state that claims to be family-friendly, if we’re putting up barriers to parents who want to see their kids.

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
The problem that we have in society is deadbeat parents, not parents who finally have found pain control through medical cannabis and are legally using it, losing access to their children. I am divorced and remarried and I have two kids with my first husband, and it is critical to me that my kids have a healthy relationship with their dad and that everybody doesn’t feel that way. And this is me getting up on my soapbox and trying to … I’m not trying to assert any moral authority, but the last thing that we need right now is for parents who want to be in their kids’ lives, have to put their kids through the trauma of weird supervised visits and it just doesn’t need to be that way. And so I’m hoping that we can really push the narrative that this policy is one of the most family-friendly things that we can do, that this will absolutely lead to better outcomes for children in our state.

Tim Pickett:
Couldn’t agree more. You definitely … You’re elected to get … You’re elected to this soapbox a little bit, that’s so to speak, so you get to do that.

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
Thanks.

Tim Pickett:
Do you have … Everybody always wants to know, do you have a personal relationship with cannabis?

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
I do not, actually. I feel very lucky that I had … I don’t have any medical conditions that I need it for, but I am really, really grateful to know that it is an opportunity should that arise. I do have a sibling who has intense back pain and finds a huge amount of relief from medical cannabis and stays off opioids. I mean, that’s … That is not my personal use, but that is very personal to me. And so I am so, so grateful that the opportunity exists to avoid opioids and to find good relief in a safe medication.

Tim Pickett:
Is there anything else that you want to talk about, you want to bring up, you think is important, especially in this community?

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
Yeah. I want … It’s really important to me that everybody know that we’re still trying to work on hemp. That was a big issue during the last session and during the special session. I think that it is really unfortunate. We’ve got to find some common ground on making sure that hemp flower is available since cannabis flower is available. That we can … That patients can access cannabis flower but that we still have to … And it’s a complicated issue. I’m not going to pretend that it isn’t very nuanced with Delta 9, Delta 8. But I just … I know that growers especially are feeling very uncertain and frightened about what the future holds and I just … It’s important to me that everybody knows that we absolutely are committed to continuing to work on this and I’m optimistic that we’ll get there.

Tim Pickett:
You’ll get to better regulation around hemp growing in Utah and sale, right? We’ve had quite a few hemp growers-

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
Yeah.

Tim Pickett:
On the podcast, frankly, and they’ve talked about how they can grow the best flower but they have to go to Nevada to sell it back to Utah.

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
Right.

Tim Pickett:
It doesn’t make any sense.

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
It just … It’s nonsensical and certainly isn’t … Doesn’t promote the business-friendly atmosphere that we like to tout so often.

Tim Pickett:
Right.

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
There’s some work to do but we’re committed.

Tim Pickett:
Cool. Okay, great. And the Delta 8, Delta 9 … For anybody who is not familiar with Delta 8, Delta 9, go back through our podcast, go to Utahmarijuana.org. We’ve got webinars, YouTube videos on Discover Marijuana, a YouTube channel specifically about Delta 8, Delta 9. It is a highly controversial topic in the medical and the hemp space, and the hemp guys love it because it’s saving their business and making people feel better, and the medical marijuana guys don’t know what to think about it on some respects.

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
And the state agencies have really strong feelings.

Tim Pickett:
And they probably don’t love it. Want it to be … Want it to go away and be in the medical market I would imagine.

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
That’s the general consensus I think among a lot of the regulatory bodies right now.

Tim Pickett:
It’s just an unknown … There’s a few things that are key that aren’t quite known perfectly about it, and it seems to be … If we have better regulation, better testing in the medical market, it makes sense that it would reside there at least for a while.

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
And the technology changes all the time and what we know changes all the time. We just … We got to work on the research and the education. There’s a lot of work to do.

Tim Pickett:
Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for coming to talk to me.

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
Thanks for having me. This has been really fun.

Tim Pickett:
For anybody who’s listening, you can go to Utahmarijuana.org/podcast. You can see all of the podcast episodes we’ve done and recorded recently. If you want to go back to legislative podcasts, the interview with Brad Daw was put out just a couple of weeks ago. And we look forward to hearing more from Jennifer Dailey-Provost in House District 24. Stay up to date-

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
Can I add one more pitch?

Tim Pickett:
Yes.

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
I’m always anxious to hear about patients’ experiences and how we can do it better so, please … My email is on the legislative website. Please reach out and help keep me educated.

Tim Pickett:
Absolutely. The legislative website what … How do we find that?

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
LE.utah.gov, and then you hover over the House and it will go to House roster, and you scroll down to District 24. They’re in order by House districts. And it has my picture, and my email, and my cell phone number on it.

Tim Pickett:
Okay, great. And if you have trouble with that you can reach out to us as well and we’ll get the information over. Thanks again for coming.

Jennifer Dailey-Provost:
Thanks for having me. I’ve really enjoyed the conversation. Appreciate what you do.

Tim Pickett:
All right, everybody, stay safe out there.

 

What to Expect in This Episode

Episode 72 of Utah in the Weeds features Amber Franke, a Utah mom who says cannabis has changed her life for the better.

Amber told host Tim Pickett about her initial experiences with cannabis, both experimentally as a teenager and once again as a patient in Utah’s Medical Cannabis program. [02:20]

Her initial curiosity about cannabis medicine began with frustration about the amount of medication her son takes for treating autism. [04:20]

Though she hasn’t yet sought Medical Cannabis certification for her son, Amber began to wonder how it might help with some of her own issues, including problems with sleep, pain, anxiety, and mental health. She now uses cannabis as a replacement for all but a couple of her prescription medications. [06:10]

She described her old life of using multiple drugs she’d been prescribed, how they made her feel like a zombie, and what it was like to make the switch to cannabis. [07:50]

After sharing some funny stories about her part-time gig as a DoorDash driver, Amber went into more detail about her experience with Medical Cannabis and the program in Utah. [14:49]

Amber made a salient point about the necessarily restrictive nature of traditional prescriptions versus the relative freedom of choice a Medical Cannabis patient has at Utah dispensaries. [29:40]

We wrapped up this episode with a bit more detail about Amber’s use of cannabis to take charge of her life. She shared her favorite cannabis product types and a bit more detail about the drugs she has replaced with cannabis. [36:43]

This was a fun and fascinating episode for anyone who wants to know where curiosity about cannabis can take you.

Resources in This Episode

• Follow the podcast at UtahMarijuana.org.
• Subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Discover Marijuana.
• Follow our Instagram page, utah_marijuana_org.

Podcast Transcript

Tim Pickett:

Welcome everyone out to Utah in the Weeds. My name is Tim Pickett and I am your host and today I have some pretty bad news. The audio for this podcast is terrible. Well, it’s not the end of the world news, like all the other news we’ve been listening to for the past year and a half. But it’s bad news for me. My guest today is Amber Franke. She’s a good friend of mine, I knew her in high school and we’ve known each other off and on for years and she really has an amazing story. And I wanted you all to hear it. So one, you are going to have to go to Utahmarijuana.org/podcast and read the transcript of this episode with Amber Franke or two, load it up on YouTube and watch the subtitles, or three pay close attention and listen here. So, folks, sorry about the audio, but I am really excited to bring you this story. She just has an amazing story. She was on so many medications and she tells you all about it. Be sure to listen to the end.

Tim Pickett:

Housekeeping items. The webinars are going really well and they’re a little more science-y, a little more educational. We do those every other Wednesday. Stay tuned on the email list at Utahmarijuana.org. If you need a card and you want to stop drug trafficking, stop driving to Nevada, stop driving to Colorado, just pay money to the state you live in, go to Utah Therapeutic, one of our clinics, and have an evaluation for a medical cannabis card. Just excited today to get this interview out there as good as it can be. My name is Tim Pickett. This is Utah in the Weeds. Let’s get into this conversation. Okay. So take me back to the beginning of cannabis.

Amber Franke:

Okay.

Tim Pickett:

In Amber Franke’s life.

Amber Franke:

I am new at this. Cannabis is brand new to me. So I, despite getting pregnant in high school and having a child out of wedlock and all that nonsense, I was a pretty good rule follower. So I was the one that was like, “It’s illegal. I’m not going down that road. It’s illegal.” It was against the rules and I don’t play against the rules, I have to be a rule follower, that’s kind of who I am. So my journey with cannabis didn’t start till after it was legalized.

Tim Pickett:

So after what?

Amber Franke:

After it was legalized in Utah.

Tim Pickett:

What?

Amber Franke:

The whole time cannabis was illegal, I didn’t use it. I tried it several, five or six times, in high school. But after that I didn’t touch it. I was on SSRIs, I was on anti-anxiety medication, I was on sleep medication, I was all sorts of pharmaceuticals and the most unhappy I’ve ever been. It wasn’t until it was legal that got my card and then tried it. So this is a pretty new journey for me.

Tim Pickett:

That’s cool. So you use SSRIs, you used normal stuff. You’ve lived in Utah your whole life.

Amber Franke:

I have.

Tim Pickett:

How does that start? Okay. You don’t live a main stream life, a Utah life, right? A “Utah life.”

Amber Franke:

Yes.

Tim Pickett:

We know each other a little bit more so we’re probably going to be a little bit more comfortable talking together just because even though it’s not like we hang out, but we went to high school together. So I knew you in high school.

Amber Franke:

Well, we ran in the same circles too.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. So you don’t live a traditional Utah lifestyle, you used cannabis a couple of times, but then it becomes legal. How did you find out? Were you involved in the process at all? Did you sign a petition or it just became legal around you and then you decided, “Oh, maybe I should try this.”

Amber Franke:

The first time that I was like, “I wonder what cannabis would do,” would be, I have a disabled child who’s severely autistic. He was officially diagnosed medically at eight, and then he’s in and out of institutions, psych wards, inpatient, outpatient, step down program, he’s been to several different schools and been kicked out of schools. And the level of psych medication I was giving to my child was the first time that I was like, “I wonder what it would look like if cannabis was legal for kids and adults with autism.” But I didn’t want to try it on him because the last thing I need is to go to jail for [inaudible 00:05:01]. So I didn’t.

Amber Franke:

That was the first time that I was like, maybe there’s something to this plant. Because the level of psych medications I was handing to a nine year old twice a day, and the side effects of those medications, was criminal. It was so hard to give my child medication twice a day when I thought that there could have been a more natural alternative. So that was the first time that I looked into cannabis as the option at all.

Amber Franke:

He’s 18 now. I’ve never given it to him, he’s never tried it. He’s still kind of on the pharmaceutical train, but that was the first time that I started reading and thinking, “Oh my gosh, there’s so many other things that it can help with.” And then, I think it was June of 2016, I tried to commit suicide and I woke up in a hospital. Sorry.

Tim Pickett:

It’s total fine.

Amber Franke:

And the first thing they did was prescribe me more medications. And so I was in there for eight days. And when I came home, I couldn’t feel, I couldn’t function. I was on all sorts of mood stabilizers, and I coasted for about a year. And then I just thought, I’ve never been more unhappy in my entire life. Something’s got to give. There’s got to be something better than this. So I took probably three years and weaned myself off of everything. And then I got my med card and then I started experimenting with cannabis. And then I finally found something that works for me. For pain, for anxiety, for sleep, for my mental health. And I’m off of everything except cannabis and a couple things, [inaudible 00:07:12]. That’s it. I don’t need anything else. And all of a sudden, now I have clarity on how to navigate hardship without use of SSRIs. It’s been life changing for me.

Tim Pickett:

It’s just fascinating that we can’t use it as a tool in the hospital when there seems to be so much anecdotal evidence that it could be a useful tool.

Amber Franke:

I was on 11 prescriptions at one point. 11. Only four of those were for pain and mental health. And the rest were for side effects of those medications.

Tim Pickett:

Of the medications.

Amber Franke:

Yes. And I have some permanent damage from those medications that I do have to take. So I’ve been diagnosed with a hiatal hernia. It’s not a [inaudible 00:08:15]. It was a hiatal hernia, but there’s something else going on in my esophagus and my stomach from something that happened with excessive amounts of Ibuprofen and Tylenol and things to treat some TMJ. And I was on prescription, IB-800s for twice, I was taking more than the max recommended for 15 years. And it’s done enough damage that I have to be on heart medications the rest of my life as a result. So yeah, there’s so many other things that you can look at. And it’s not just cannabis. Cannabis got me to a place where I could detox from everything else. And then I started paying attention to my mental health and meditation and [inaudible 00:09:04] and exercise and diet and sweets and water consumption and all the other things that you need to be healthy.

Tim Pickett:

Healthy. Right. So you used cannabis as the gateway, right? It was the gateway drug for this next step or essentially the exit drug. It was thing that allowed you to take that next step and to say, “Okay, look, let’s look at this a little bit different.”

Amber Franke:

Yeah. It forced me to a place where it could sand the edges of my pain and my sleep problems enough for me to have enough clarity to be like, “I actually can take control of my life and what do I need to do to get there? What do I need to do to be happy again?” And part of that was quit numbing your feelings with SSRIs.

Tim Pickett:

Yes.

Amber Franke:

Quit it.

Tim Pickett:

You feel like SSRIs were just leveling you out.

Amber Franke:

I was a zombie. Yeah. I was a zombie for 15 years. I call it the walking dead for me. I felt enough to think that I was doing okay and that I was normal, but big problems I didn’t have big reactions to. I was kind of just this melancholy little tiny spikes and little tiny depressions. And it’s not until you’re in a really uncomfortable situation that you’re like, “Oh shit, I have to actually do something because this feels terrible.” I wasn’t able to do that when I was on SSRIs. I didn’t have access to those really big feelings. I could feel a little, I could identify, “Oh I should sad about this,” or, “I am sad because of this.” But it wasn’t a discomfort feeling that forced me to change something.

Tim Pickett:

When you talked about, you said something that was interesting to me, cannabis, and essentially it sounds like the THC in cannabis, was able to sand the rough edges of your pain. How is that different, or is it different, than the SSRIs dulling, making your life gray? So I often describe it as Gabapentin is a good example of a drug that essentially makes-

Amber Franke:

That’s the one I just got off of.

Tim Pickett:

Right. It makes your life gray. And cannabis allows people to have oranges and yellows and colors, right? And Gabapentin just kind of grays everything out. When you say sand the rough edges, is that the same or is it different? I might be getting into the weeds here a little bit more.

Amber Franke:

I feel for me, sanding the edges with Gabapentin just sanded them so much that there was nothing left. Sanding the edges with cannabis, or THC, allows me to recognize that there’s a problem, but doesn’t debilitate my ability to solve that problem myself.

Tim Pickett:

Yes. And this is really what I was kind getting at, was hoping to get at, was this idea that by using cannabis, it’s not that you’re dulling the senses, it isn’t that you’re dulling the senses, it’s that you’re able to deal with the things that you want to deal with. Right? But you’re not necessarily suppressing them in the same way.

Amber Franke:

Right. But I also feel like there’s a level of control on my end of it. So depending on how much or how I’m navigating my cannabis, it’s cannabis. It’s a plant. It’s the same thing that I’m taking, but if I’m not having an extremely rough anxiety day, I don’t need as much to go to sleep at night. Where, when you have a pill, I was on like 50 milligrams of Trazodone every night. And there was another one that I coupled that with that starts with a Z. I can’t remember, but it was a sleeping pill, and I would kind of get a hangover the next day, or I couldn’t just fall asleep and then wake up an hour later. It was, I’m out for eight hours and I can’t find my phone the next day because I stuck it in the freezer.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. Because, the Z one is Zopadem, that’s Ambien, that’s five milligrams Ambien with Trazodone. And let me tell you, those are two… If you’re on that and you’re on Gabapentin, plus you’re on an SSRI, my God, you’re on a lot of medications. How we get to this point where we’re putting people on all of these medications? See, this is my whole soapbox, and forgive me for being this way, but you’re taking somebody’s life away from them by adding all of these medications to their list and not considering something like cannabis, where at least it’s a tool, just like everything else. You’re willing to put them on five FDA approved medications, but you’re not willing to let them try a little bit of cannabis? That’s what society has, I think, really screwed up 100 years ago by eliminating this and making it such a cultural negative. We have done this, we are doing this to people. We keep doing this to people. I.

Amber Franke:

It’s interesting too, because when I was on Gabapentin and Ambien, I would wake up with a jar of peanut butter in my bed.

Tim Pickett:

I know people with blocks of cheese, bottles of peanut butter. They’ve been out to the mailbox and done something, painted something.

Amber Franke:

But I would also look forward to those funny stories because they were something to brag about, which is so bizarre to me when I look back now, because I’m like, “It was out of my control, but that was my way of being like, ‘Oh my gosh. I did a thing and it’s because of the meds I’m taking.'” And now I have accountability where I’m like, I don’t actually get to make that excuse anymore because I’m not on those medications. So now I’m making better choices in my everyday life so I don’t have stories. I still have stories, but they’re within normal range. Like my story today, I DoorDash when my kids are in school, I DoorDash for extra money and I was DoorDashing and as I was putting a Fizz order with four sodas in my car, I hit my handle and spilled all four sodas in my… Stupid choice, but I was able to laugh about it and it had nothing to do with anything… And given those two, I would rather have that story than, “I did a thing.”

Tim Pickett:

This is totally off topic. You DoorDash Fizz? Do people actually literally DoorDash Fizz?

Amber Franke:

Dude, some of my weird DoorDashes have been… My favorite are to nursing homes or hospitals, because I will pause my Dash and have a conversation with the Alzheimer’s patients. But I have picked up flower arrangements from Smith’s Marketplace and walked into a funeral home with a tank top and shorts, not dressed appropriate at all, and delivered flowers in the middle of a funeral.

Tim Pickett:

Oh my God.

Amber Franke:

It’s so great.

Tim Pickett:

So is it like Task Rabbit? Do you know what that is?

Amber Franke:

I don’t know what that is.

Tim Pickett:

It’s like DoorDash, I can go on DoorDash and I can order just anything? Or they have to be a business that associates with DoorDash.

Amber Franke:

It has to be a business that associates with DoorDash. But grocery stores do. And so that’s like the flower order, I was like, “OK, flowers. I guess I’m delivering flowers.” And then I go to Russon Brothers on Main Street in Bountiful and I’m like, “Oh my God.”

Tim Pickett:

Oh my gosh.

Amber Franke:

And there’s all these cars there. And I’m like, “I have to walk in looking like white trash. This is great.”

Tim Pickett:

Oh gosh. This is great. I can’t. I mean the Fizz thing, okay, sorry. The Fizz thing is crazy. I just cannot. For all of you out there, listeners, I do not like that we have Fizz, I do not like that we have Sips, I do not like these places. And yet, once in a while, I’ll go to Beans & Brews and get my coffee. So yes, I’m a hypocrite. I totally am a hypocrite.

Amber Franke:

No you’re not. You’re a human.

Tim Pickett:

I’ll buy my coffee to drive through. But, man, your Diet Cokes and your vanilla whipped cream thing, I don’t know. I just cannot figure out. And it’s a Utah thing.

Amber Franke:

Oh my gosh, the soda chains.

Tim Pickett:

These things are huge.

Amber Franke:

Yeah they’re huge. [crosstalk 00:17:39].

Tim Pickett:

And then not only do you go, but you DoorDash.

Amber Franke:

Yeah. You can DoorDash Little Caesar’s pizza now.

Tim Pickett:

Holy shit. It’s more money to DoorDash it than to buy the pizza.

Amber Franke:

I know. I delivered a $10 Little Caesar’s order and got paid $6 to deliver it. Less than three miles away from Little Caesar’s.

Tim Pickett:

And, again, this side of me though, I’ve done the Costco delivery. I’ve done the Instacart. And, man, I love to have that stuff…

Amber Franke:

If you can afford it, you can do it. Because you know what? It keeps people like me who are DoorDashing? It keeps me from having to get a real job.

Tim Pickett:

Well, that was my next question. If you’ve got kids in school and you’ve got an incredibly flexible schedule, so you can do that, and if you’re making enough extra money and you don’t to go work a full time or a part time, you can do this gig economy, on that side of it, it’s really cool.

Amber Franke:

Yeah. I really like it. I really like it because it does open up. I have one that’s disabled and he’s at a post high program called Vista down the street from us now, but he does a hybrid so he’s only in person two days a week, he’s home the other three. So I would love to get a full time job somewhere, but I don’t have that kind of flexibility. So for me, when he’s at school, I can DoorDash. And I usually average right around $20 an hour when I’m DoorDashing. And I’ve got all the apps that count my mileage, how much I have to take out for taxes, all that kind of stuff. Different savings account that I plug it all into.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. So how long have you been doing this? Do you credit cannabis for helping you figure all of this sort of stuff out?

Amber Franke:

100% yes. Because I think it cleared my vision enough to make the major life changes that I needed to make without the fear attached to what that’s going to look like.

Tim Pickett:

What did the legalization mean to you? Would you have done this if it wasn’t legal?

Amber Franke:

No. Nope. I wouldn’t. I’m a rule follower. I wouldn’t have. If it wasn’t legal, I would be too scared to get caught or have something happen that I would have to then answer for. No, I would’ve never tried it. I would’ve never tried it medicinally. I did it a few times in high school, everybody experiments with different things. But no, if it wasn’t legal, I would’ve never tried. I would probably still be in an abusive marriage and a stay at home mom with disabled kids and trying to avoid breakdowns in psych wards for the rest of my life.

Tim Pickett:

Do you like that Utah is a medical program versus adult use or recreational program?

Amber Franke:

I don’t think that’s even a fair question to ask me just because I wouldn’t use it recreationally. The first few times that I even like upped a dose on a gummy, I’m like, I have to make sure I’m not going anywhere tomorrow. I’m very careful with my consumption as it is anyway. I don’t know that I would actually use it recreationally. I don’t know if there’s really a difference though. Because once you get past that place of getting high, it doesn’t have the party vibe anymore. That kind of goes away.

Tim Pickett:

It does for a lot of people. I definitely agree. There’s a point which you understand, you know what’s going to happen. You know I’m going to take this and I know pretty much exactly how I’m going to feel in an hour. Because I’ve done this before, I do this every day or every few days or when I have a bad day, whatever it is. And you’re used to that and that is not really recreational. What would you call that? How do you view that? Because I know on the other hand there’s people who would use it “medicinally,” but then, “I’m a musician” or “I paint and I like that creativity that gives me.” Or something like that. Is there a difference with that? I don’t know.

Amber Franke:

I think that’s up to the individual, don’t you? I mean, for me, the reason I started taking it, because I was coming off my SSRIs anyway. I was coming off my anxiety medication anyway. So whatever the outcome of that looked like for me, I was going to be fine with it. What I told myself. “OK. I’m going to allow myself to try it for this specific reason to see if it helps.” The excuse that I gave myself is my TMJ because I was breaking two teeth a year and having to call the dentist and go in for an emergency dental because my teeth are clinching, my molars are clenching.

Amber Franke:

So for me it was like, “I’ll just use it at night. I’ll just use it for sleep. And if I break a tooth, then I have it for pain.” So that’s what I qualified under. That’s how I got my medical card. And it wasn’t until I started experimenting, because I tried the flower, I tried the capsules, I tried the tinctures, I tried the stuff you rub on your jaw, like the balms, I tried the vape. I tried all it. And that’s when I noticed, “Holy shit, this is actually helping my anxiety. I wonder what would happen if I used it for a panic attack.” And so I would try it that way. And I think that’s when I was like, “Oh my God, this isn’t just a party drug.” And there’s so many uses. There’s so many different things that this is helping with.

Tim Pickett:

I know. I’m letting you talk because we’re having this conversation, but it is. It is like, wow. And it’s not the cure for everything. We don’t cure very many things with cannabis, but we’re just, human beings like to manipulate their environment, they like to manipulate things. Right? We know we eat certain things and we have more energy. That’s how we are. We learn to do these things and we learn to use different products. We drink coffee in the morning to help wake ourselves up, we use cannabis to help ourselves feel a little better. And if you have pain in your jaw.

Amber Franke:

Yeah. And I don’t think this is really a bad thing, especially during a panic attack, the Xanax that I would take would last four or five hours and I would be knocked out. I would have a panic attack, I would take a rescue medication, and I would go to sleep. And I would be asleep for four, five, six, seven, eight hours. And then I’d wake up starving and I’d wake up and I’d eat. And then I would feel like crap because I would feel guilty for having a panic attack and beat myself up. And my mental health would just plummet and then depression would set in. And then sometimes I wouldn’t get out of bed for three or four days and then I would start to worry and then I’d have another panic attack happen. And I’d taken another Xanax and it was the same cycle over and over and over again.

Amber Franke:

When I started using cannabis and I thought, I wonder what would happen if I just smoked some flour, used vape. I’d panic 20 minutes, and I would be like, “I think I got this. I think I can handle this. I think I can do this.” And then I would almost elevate to this different mindset and then I’d talk myself back down and I would be OK. And then I was ready to continue the day. Not as if it never happened, but maybe would have it up to an hour of, “Oh, that was a rough one.” And then I would be back to normal and then I could manage it. But I would also do is process what triggered that panic attack as well. What am I avoiding? What am I not looking at? And what can I do to make that not trigger [inaudible 00:25:38]? How can I expose myself to that trigger to make it so it’s not nearly as impactful as it was [inaudible 00:25:43].

Tim Pickett:

Are you doing this essentially during that psychoactive period?

Amber Franke:

No. I think I’m unreachable in that moment. It’s usually reflection after.

Tim Pickett:

After. Okay. You’re basically saying, okay, the panic attack, we’re going to put that over on the couch for now, we’re just going to get it through. And then after that kind of calms down and everything kind of settles, then you can reflect, you feel a little better, and then you can start to get a little clearer.

Amber Franke:

Yeah. That part’s pretty instant. So I might still have, obviously you’re still going to the cannabis in your system, but I’m not technically high anymore. And I’m already tired and exhausted from the panic attack, but they’ve never lasted as long, they never were nearly as intense. And then I was able to actually revisit that panic attack and try to identify the trigger so I knew what I could do to avoid it being trigger.

Tim Pickett:

You’re doing a lot of work.

Amber Franke:

I know.

Tim Pickett:

You really are doing a lot of work. I mean, congratulations on heading down this path. Certainly we all have places where we’re still going, but you have come a long way

Amber Franke:

In a short amount of time. But I have to say, walking into the dispensary and being able to ask questions legally, without worrying. I’m there at least once a week, “This isn’t working for me. This is giving me headaches. I don’t like how this is doing. I need a different strand of this.” Like I said, I’m a newbie at this. Sativa and Indica? I didn’t even what those were a year ago. I’d never heard of those words before. So this is all kind new to me, but knowing that I’m okay to walk into the dispensary and say, “This issue that I’m having, how do we problem solve this?” And having them actually take time to explain things to me so I can understand it and put my mental health and my physical health back in my hands, is huge.

Tim Pickett:

When you finally gave yourself permission to use this and to try it, it does sound like you really had to give yourself permission to experiment with everything.

Amber Franke:

What do you mean? Say that again?

Tim Pickett:

Like experiment with different delivery methods. “I’m going to try the gummies. I’m going to try the vape. I’m going to try the flower.” Do you feel like that’s a big hiccup or that’s a big hurdle for people who basically grew up with you and me?

Amber Franke:

I think it’s extremely overwhelming. There’s so much information. Just walking in the first time with my med card, I felt really small because I knew that I was walking in as completely uneducated, never before interested in this at all, and I was clueless. And so I already walked in with the idea of, “OK, you’re gonna feel stupid” because you have no idea what you’re doing. You have no idea. You just got this card and now you’re free range. You can do whatever the F you want. But I was like, I need guidance, I need help, I need guidance. And then being able to be like, “Oh no, you can try this and you can try this and you can try this and you can try this. And just keep a journal and just see what works for you and what doesn’t.”

Amber Franke:

And then being able to go back and say, “Okay, I tried this and this and this, this didn’t work for me for this reason, this didn’t work for this reason, cetera.” And have them say, “Okay, try this instead. Or let’s try a different delivery method.” I think that for me, took all the judgment and fear completely out of it. But I didn’t go crazy either. I want crazy buying everything, but I didn’t go crazy trying it all. I did keep a journal. I was meticulous what I tried and making sure I’d try it for three or four days to see what the effects would be before I decided to try a different method.

Tim Pickett:

How long did it take you to figure out dosing? How you were going to feel?

Amber Franke:

It was six months of hit and miss. And there was a little bit of struggle with anxiety and a little bit of depression and being sleepy. But I would just go and talk to people and ask questions and they would help me fine tune a couple of different things. And I know how my body reacts to certain deliveries now. And I like being in control of that. I don’t like going to a doctor and having them say, “You need three months before you have any sort of effect and don’t change anything because it’s detrimental if you just stop taking that SSRI.” And then I’d go and I’d suffer for three months and I’d know on day four this isn’t going to work for me. And then I’d have to live out that three months of taking this drug and then I’d have to make an appointment and go in. And then they would adjust the dose, but they wouldn’t adjust the drug itself. And I think that level of control in the hands of somebody that spent 15 minutes talking to you is kind of gross.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. You have turned it on its head, right? You’re taking all the control. This is a very good way to put it. In traditional medicine, we have somebody who spends 15 minutes with you, and yet you’re giving them 90 plus percent of control over the medications and your therapy and your treatment.

Amber Franke:

You either take it or you don’t. And do you have any idea?

Tim Pickett:

You either take it or you don’t.

Amber Franke:

Yeah. Cold Turkey with an SSRI? Come on.

Tim Pickett:

Oh, it’s not pretty. But, on the other hand, cannabis medicine is almost exactly the opposite. I’m the one who’s giving you permission to use this medication, puts the fence up around the pasture, so to speak, and says, “Okay, inside this room or inside this area, you can do what you need to do. I’ll be here whenever you need me and periodically.”

Amber Franke:

Which is a lot in the beginning.

Tim Pickett:

Which is a lot in the beginning. The pharmacists are there, the dispensary’s there. Utah set up a pretty good program for that with the pharmacists, I will say. And now you have almost all of the control.

Amber Franke:

Yes.

Tim Pickett:

And the provider is just there in case or there to guide. I like that way of putting that. And that essentially is what allowed you to figure yourself out a little bit, right? Figure the drugs out, figure the medication, decide what works, what doesn’t. How it works.

Amber Franke:

But this isn’t just for drugs. It’s everything. It’s taking control of every aspect of my life. And that includes the people I surround myself with. That includes the crowds I out with, what kind of job I want, or what I teach my children and coping skills. It’s clear the cobwebs out of the way so I can actually function.

Tim Pickett:

And cannabis doesn’t deserve all of the credit there. It’s just a little piece.

Amber Franke:

Sure. Right.

Tim Pickett:

And then you essentially do the rest.

Amber Franke:

It’s not a fix all, that’s for sure.

Tim Pickett:

No.

Amber Franke:

But I think for me, why it was so important for me, is because, like we were talking earlier, that it just sanded the edges enough where it wasn’t so painful that I could actually look at it. And then I already have, I can take control of what my life looks like and who I hang out with and the things that I want to do with my future and what I teach my children. And if I stayed on the SSRIs, I don’t know that I would have ever come out of that coma really.

Tim Pickett:

I’m glad you did.

Amber Franke:

Me too.

Tim Pickett:

I am. I am really glad you did. And I’m glad that we’re having this conversation because, frankly, there are people out there who, they’re still really lost and they’re still in that gray area. And maybe hearing somebody say, “Hey, I’m normal. I’m like you. Here’s what I did,” gives somebody that permission to allow themselves to do the same thing in their own way. And that’s what’s so cool. What do you see next for you as far as everything goes? You’re going to keep doing what you’re doing now? Sounds like things are going pretty well.

Amber Franke:

Yeah. I think I’m learning how to slow down and kind of enjoy what’s in front of me instead of always wondering what’s going to be the next big step, or where I’m going to be in five years. It’s just a matter of enjoying, smelling the flowers, enjoying my children as they grow, enjoying just existence and being okay with discomfort, learning how to be the best person myself with the tools I have in my tool belt.

Tim Pickett:

Did you go back to your provider and let them know all of these things? Have they been included in all of this?

Amber Franke:

Yeah. Of course. I even went back to my dentist. Said, “I’m not going to be breaking anymore teeth.” And he’s like, “Dang it.” No, everybody’s on board. I feel like transparency is huge with me too. I don’t believe in hiding or lying. I think that’s why I’m such a rule follower, but yes, I definitely went back to my doctor and said we need to eliminate these medications because I’m not taking them. He’s like, “Well what are you doing instead?” “I have my cannabis card.” And he basically gave thumbs up, “Good for you.”

Tim Pickett:

He’s like whatever works.

Amber Franke:

Yeah. And it’s in my chart now. So he knows now that I do take cannabis. So any type of medication that I need in the future can interact with it badly. So I think it’s important.

Tim Pickett:

It is. It sounds like your experience with your regular provider was pretty good. We get phone calls pretty frequently from other providers who are like, “Well, can I do this with this other medication? Is it okay?” And we’re starting to answer those questions. People are slowly coming around, one at a time.

Amber Franke:

I love that.

Tim Pickett:

That’s okay. One at a time’s more than zero at a time. That’s fine.

Amber Franke:

Yeah. I love it. I think that now the next step is getting insurance companies to cover the costs.

Tim Pickett:

Yes. I agree.

Amber Franke:

It is.

Tim Pickett:

I think that’s a big lift. And I think working more providers into it so you don’t have to pay outside for the evaluations, lowering the prices of the medication, the flower, all of it, needs to come down and be more accessible. The more we do, the more accessible it becomes. It’s expensive right now, still.

Amber Franke:

It is.

Tim Pickett:

It is.

Amber Franke:

But it’s worth it for me, for my mental health, and for what I’m doing to the inside. I don’t know what kind of long term damage 20 years on the SSRIs did to my brain or any of that stuff. I’m the one that was like, “I’ll be on this for the rest of my life. There’s no way I’m going to be without a mood stabilizer. I can’t function without it.” And here I am. It’s been a couple years now, almost a little over a year now where I haven’t had any SSRIs. I feel like my growth spurt is monumental and I have nowhere to go but up. I can really get better.

Tim Pickett:

That’s awesome. Do you have a favorite strain?

Amber Franke:

I think the one thing that I will not ever not purchase are the gummies.

Tim Pickett:

You like the gummies.

Amber Franke:

I do. Right now I’m taking the mango peach 40 milligram gummy at night. And if I’m exhausted, I only take half of it. And if I’m anxious, I take the whole thing. I like being able to fine tune that. And then, the panic attacks, using the vape for panic attacks is the other one that I probably will never go without.

Tim Pickett:

That’s good.

Amber Franke:

Oh. And I’m also, because I was on ibuprofen 800, I was on Diclofenac or something?

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. Diclofenac. It’s a name brand ibuprofen type medication. And all that’s gone.

Amber Franke:

All of it’s gone.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. That’s pretty cool.

Amber Franke:

I think so.

Tim Pickett:

I love these stories. I like people to take back control.

Amber Franke:

Yeah. And I think it’s nice too, because it’s not a replacement. I mean, it can be, it’s a replacement, but really for me, it was just opening my eyes to know that I’m mentally strong enough to do these things on my own and this helps me get there. This helps me get there. And it just doesn’t make my anxiety quite so overwhelming that I shut down. It actually makes it manageable, and I can pay attention to it and I know when it’s coming.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. Cannabis isn’t doing the work. You’re doing the work, cannabis is just helping you to be able to do that.

Amber Franke:

It’s clearing the cobwebs. Yeah.

Tim Pickett:

Yep. Clearing the cobwebs.

Amber Franke:

Yep. For sure.

Tim Pickett:

Well, this is awesome. Well, thanks, Amber. I really appreciate you. I appreciate your willingness to be open and honest with me, with people. I think it’s just amazing. Congratulations.

Amber Franke:

It’s been a journey. Thank you.

Tim Pickett:

And if I’ve ever DoorDashing Fizz, I swear, if you ever show up when I DoorDash Fizz.

Amber Franke:

You better tip me big.

Tim Pickett:

Oh, big. Don’t you worry.

Amber Franke:

You better tip me big.

Tim Pickett:

That’s right. All right, everybody. Utahmarijuana.org/podcast is where you can find all of the podcasts. You can also subscribe to Utah in the Weeds on any podcast player that you have. You can download us everywhere. Amber Franke, it’s been a real pleasure.

Amber Franke:

It’s been a pleasure being here. Thanks, Tim.

Tim Pickett:

You bet. Stay safe out there, guys.

What to Expect in This Episode

Episode 71 of Utah in the Weeds features former state Representative Brad Daw, who was instrumental in establishing Utah’s Medical Cannabis program.

Mr. Daw told us about the launch of his political career back in 2004, and the clash with local payday lenders that temporarily cost him his seat in the Utah House of Representatives in 2012. [01:32]

After regaining his seat in 2014, Daw began working on a number of political issues, including prescription drug abuse, election transparency, affordable and accessible healthcare, and, of course, Medical Marijuana. [02:20]

Daw shared some of his conservative beliefs about small government, taxes, and finding cross-party governmental solutions in the least intrusive manner. [02:56]

Daw and host Tim Pickett talked about CBD, “Charlotte’s Web” and the paradigm shift that began to bring Medical Cannabis to the attention of Utah lawmakers. [05:11]

Toward the end of Utah’s 2014 legislative session, Daw and Sen. Evan Vickers began working on a plan to grant access to Medical Marijuana for those with legitimate medical needs. [09:36]

Daw talked about the “thoroughly-mocked” right-to-try law that allowed terminally-ill patients to grow and use cannabis with THC. He also talked about the proliferation of CBD, and his own use of CBD as a sleep aid. [12:14]

Some past and present members of the Utah Legislature, including Daw, have resisted legalizing raw cannabis flower for medical use. Tim and Daw talked about some of the reasons for that resistance, and Daw’s current stance on the subject. [16:47]

Tim and Daw talked about some of the challenges legislators in Utah and other states have faced in establishing Medical Marijuana programs. They went over the ballot initiative and the compromise bill that makes cannabis available for a broader range of patients in Utah. [19:30]

States with Medical Cannabis programs have quite a lot of regulations to consider. In Utah, every Medical Cannabis patient must meet with a pharmacist at least once before purchasing cannabis from a pharmacy. Daw feels regulations like these are critical to the successful implementation of cannabis as a legitimate medicine. Daw also explained why cannabis isn’t taxed in Utah. [28:06]

We wrapped up the episode with a brief discussion of what’s next for Mr. Daw. [43:36]

This episode is full of great information on the history of Medical Marijuana in Utah. Daw gave us some unique insight into the Utah Legislature’s decisions and processes that resulted in a successful Medical Cannabis program.

Resources in This Episode

• Follow the podcast at UtahMarijuana.org.
• Subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Discover Marijuana.
• Follow our Instagram page, utah_marijuana_org.

Podcast Transcript

Tim Pickett:
Episode 71 of Utah in the Weeds coming at you. And my name is Tim Pickett. I am your host, medical cannabis expert, so to speak. Medical provider here in Utah, founder of Utah Marijuana.org, Utah Therapeutic Health Center, a series of medical cannabis specialty clinics here in the great state of Utah.

Tim Pickett:
Today, we’re talking to Brad Daw, he’s a former legislator, a key person in the medical cannabis program. He was “in the room,” quote unquote, when major decisions were being made, especially with regard to the updates of the medical cannabis program over the past few years. I think this is interesting, for patients in Utah and advocates alike.

Tim Pickett:
From a housekeeping perspective, tune into Discover Marijuana, YouTube channel. We do webinars every other week and have a released video talking about the science and medicine of cannabis. The best way to get ahold of me or ask a question is simply to go to that YouTube channel and comment on one of the videos. We look at every question and answer all of them as best we can. You can subscribe to the podcast on any podcast player that you prefer. All episodes are on utahmarijuana.org. Again, utahmarijuana.org/podcast. This is Utah in the Weeds. I’m Tim Pickett.

Tim Pickett:
Introduce yourself a little bit. Describe your history, especially that in the legislature.

Brad Daw:
I began my legislative service after the election of 2004. That’s when I was first elected, and I was in for a number of years. And then for reasons that… Well, I mean to put it bluntly, I took on payday lenders, and they have a lot of money. And they decided to target me and in 2012, they took me out. In 2014, what they had done became really apparent, and I got back in. And that’s really when I started the whole thing with med cannabis, was around that time. And then I was in until just this last year, and really enjoyed it.

Brad Daw:
So then I worked on a number of issues, I worked a lot on prescription drug abuse. I worked on election transparency, honest elections. Worked a lot with healthcare, and making it affordable and trying to find a way to get access for people who don’t normally have access. Trying to change the healthcare model to one that makes it a little bit more sense than our current system does. So those are just a couple of areas that I have specialized in.

Tim Pickett:
Do you feel like you’re somebody who hangs to the right, on the political spectrum? Where do you fit, in the left to right?

Brad Daw:
Well, I tilt… I’m from Utah County. So in Utah County, I’m right in the middle. But I tilt to the right.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah.

Brad Daw:
So, make no mistake about it. I come at things from… I use terms not to, in a way, disparage them. Just trying to kind of give you a feel of what I believe in. I believe in, government should be limited, but not non-existent. That government does have a role, but we should always be mindful of the fact that the vast majority of people choose to make good decisions, and really don’t want to pay a lot in taxes unless you’re getting… Well, ever. And whenever they do pay taxes, they want to see they’re getting a rock-solid benefit for the money that they’re being required to give.

Brad Daw:
And it’s always… I always want to be clear about that. I’ve heard some politicians call taxes contributions, and it just makes me kind of gag. It’s not a contribution. You are required to give taxes. And I need to always remember that. So, like I said, I want government to be kind of a light hand, but understand that they do have a particular role in many areas that they’re only suited for. And we need to understand that. So, yes, I lean to the right. And I also think I lean towards the idea of solving problems, not just being an ideologue.

Tim Pickett:
Right, not just legislating because you can. You see a potential issue, and then try to fix that issue.

Brad Daw:
Exactly. I mean, that’s the whole idea. Let’s look at the issue, and frankly, let’s consider all perspectives. So let’s look at those who lean left, those who lean right. All across the spectrum. Let’s gather ideas and let’s run that through. Kind of my, my preference, which is the government take the least invasive role they can. And then, from that, let’s see if we can find a solution.

Tim Pickett:
Did you, when you were working in healthcare, 2010, right? 2008. Are you talking about medical cannabis at all, clear back then?

Brad Daw:
No. It was on the radar. It didn’t get on the radar for me until… Well, you know what? You probably know this better than I do. When did Charlotte’s Web kind of hit the national news?

Tim Pickett:
Oh, yeah. That’s a good, that’s a good… I’ll tell you right now.

Brad Daw:
Well, it seems like that was around ’13? ’12, ’13, ’14, around there.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I think you’re right. I think the critical events started right then, in July 2013.

Brad Daw:
Yeah.

Tim Pickett:
That’s the summer when we’re talking about it, right?

Brad Daw:
I think so. Yeah. Charlotte’s Web kind of, I mean, for me, that was a paradigm shift. You hear people talking about medical cannabis, California has had medical cannabis for 30 years now. And all the time you’re just kind of in the back of your head saying, “Okay, great. You’ve got to wait to get ahold of some marijuana and get high. Show me some evidence of actual medical efficacy. Show me what it is.”

Brad Daw:
And it wasn’t that I was close minded. Some people might disagree. But it was a, “Look, show me what you got. Put your cards on the table. If there’s really genuine medical use for it, let’s have it.” And, with Charlotte’s Web, we had to start saying, “Well, at least this substance called CBD, has some use.” And that kind of opened the door for me and said, “All right. The notion that marijuana is a Schedule 1 drug, or cannabis is a Schedule 1 drug, which means it has no real medical benefit that outweighs its risk or abuse potential,” just didn’t fly anymore. We have to change our thinking. And it’s clear that the federal government wasn’t going to.

Brad Daw:
So that’s what got me in the space. Now, my degree is in electrical engineering, I have no… Other than having been a patient many, many times because of some injuries I had when I was child, that’s my contact with the healthcare industry. So I’m a guy who comes at it with hopefully an unbiased view, but at least a view that’s not trying to put my thumb on the scale for any one group or another, but just trying to do what’s right, and that’s what was in my mind.

Tim Pickett:
You’re basically trying to be a… Yeah. Like an innocent educated bystander. “We’re going to take both sides. I represent my district.” And you represent a fairly conservative part of the state.

Brad Daw:
Right.

Tim Pickett:
So was there discussions at that time about going towards THC, like California? It seems to me, like in my memory, and I’m graduating PA school at this time, the University of Utah, there’s no, I can’t remember. Although we were buried in school, I can’t really remember a bunch of discussions about, “Let’s bring medical marijuana on board, ” in 2013, ’14.

Brad Daw:
For me, where I started with was, “Okay. CBD is definitely something we need to look at.” And again, “Take the cautious approach. If that’s the substance that has medical benefit, let’s explore it. Let’s find a way to make it available in a way that’s legal, and also regulated for safety and consistency,” and that sort of thing. So you’re not just buying your CBD at the gas station and hoping that it’s not laced with something really exciting.

Tim Pickett:
Right.

Brad Daw:
It’s something you would get off of a drugstore shelf. That’s what we wanted to get to was, you can be assured that this CBD that you’re buying has the same level of quality assurance as if you bought a bottle of Tylenol or ibuprofen or anything else. What it has in it, is what it says it has in it.

Tim Pickett:
What are the… At the time, were there are a lot of people that were really against? Or did you feel like this was something that you had a lot of support for?

Brad Daw:
There was a lot of angst, and I…. What really happened is, towards the end of the session, and I want to say this was the 2014 session, because that was my first session back in. Evan Vickers and I had a long history together. He had been on the Health and Human Services Committee in the House with me, and now he was in the Senate, in 2014. And we were good friends. And of course, he’s got a pharmaceutical background and he was somebody I trusted, and still trust completely. And so I said, “Listen, I don’t want this to be driven by those who I think might have a motive beyond just medical. In other words, they might be used in medical as a wedge issue to push for recreational. I want this to be a pushed as a way to provide medical relief to those who actually would genuinely benefit from it.” So that’s when I started with Evan, is in 2014, looking at it. And we’ve been kind of on that road ever since, together. And he’s kind of stuck with it, now.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, he’s definitely stuck with it all the way, to be essentially the leader in the THC side of things, from a legislative standpoint through now.

Brad Daw:
Right.

Tim Pickett:
How did that progress until you… There’s this piece, there’s this period of time in 2017, you said? You essentially got primaried out? Is that what they call it?

Brad Daw:
For 2018, yeah.

Tim Pickett:
2018?

Brad Daw:
Yes, I got eliminated… Well, no, no. I’m sorry. It was just this last year. What am I thinking? It’s 2020. So I was in, until 2020.

Tim Pickett:
It’s been a long year.

Brad Daw:
Yeah. Yeah. 2020 was just a… I mean, let’s call it what it was. I won’t use the word because we’re being recorded, but, a you-know-what kind of storm. Right?

Tim Pickett:
Yeah. It’s been a long two years, of a year. I feel like. And, some of that still lingers, with this… There’s so much. There’s just so much, still, to deal with. It seems like, we’re at now.

Brad Daw:
Yeah.

Tim Pickett:
So, 2020. So you go all the way through.

Brad Daw:
Right.

Tim Pickett:
How does this… What changed your mind about involving THC? Was it really just the referendum, the ballot initiative?

Brad Daw:
No. No, it wasn’t at all. In fact, if you look at the bill that we started with, it allowed for some level of THC, along with the CBD. We were leery of raw flower, and still a little leery of raw flower, frankly. But we were all for the idea that some level of THC is effective. And our bill got modified to the point where we were open to up to 50, 50 THC, CBD and so forth. And honestly, we were willing to do more than that, once we got doctors on board and evidence in place that demonstrated that it was effective.

Brad Daw:
In fact, we passed a bill, it was thoroughly mocked, but it was a right to try, which allowed for a full strain of cannabis. And the idea there was, that was kind of our toe tap into, basically whatever kind of cannabis you want. Now, we weren’t quite ready to endorse raw bud, but we were certainly ready to endorse anything else. And that’s where it got to. And again, we’re trying to follow the evidence. There was concerns about the abuse potential of THC, and that’s why we think it necessary to be under the care of a doctor.

Brad Daw:
On the other hand, I passed another bill, this is kind of one I did on my own, with the Senator Hinkins, for him. And that one allows you to buy CBD products over the counter. So where it can be of use, like there can with the opioids, you want to go through a doctor. But when it’s not really an abuse potential sell it over the counter, and just ensure like you do with Tylenol and so forth, that it’s safe. And it’s what they said it is.

Tim Pickett:
This is the bill… Yeah. And this is the bill that regulated, or that started the process, where now we have companies. And there’s been some really good things about this. I’ve interviewed Blake Smith from Zion Medicinal. And I do a YouTube channel, Discover Marijuana, with him. And we talk about the certificate of analysis on all the CBD products.

Brad Daw:
Right.

Tim Pickett:
Where you’ve got… You’ve just got products. There are so many products across the nation even, to where, you don’t know what’s in there.

Brad Daw:
Yeah. And there’s some… Charlotte’s is… I’ve heard of people putting all manner of weird stuff in with their CBD. I want to say some kind of blood thinner, or something like that. I don’t even know what they’re thinking.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah.

Brad Daw:
And different kinds of opioids. And lace them with fentanyl, and heaven knows what. And of course, it’s all illegal, they find ways to sell it and then we have to go out and figure out what’s in it. And, “Nope. That’s not it.” So again, that’s why we think there needs to be that government oversight saying, “Okay, we will analyze the product and ensure that it is what you say it is. But that’s the extent of our oversight is, we guarantee the pure and then it’s accurate on the label. And then, we allow people in the case of CBD to say, ‘Well, I can decide what and how I’ll take it.'”

Tim Pickett:
Everybody’s going to be dying to know, are you somebody who’s consumed CBD?

Brad Daw:
Yes.

Tim Pickett:
Have you used it for anything?

Brad Daw:
Yeah, I use it for a sleep aid.

Tim Pickett:
Do you find it helps?

Brad Daw:
Yeah. It’s pretty effective. The nice thing about it is it doesn’t produce any kind of a high. It has some CBN in it as well, or CBG or something like that.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, CBN.

Brad Daw:
There’s [crosstalk 00:16:13] in there that’s more effective as a sleep aid. And I find that it actually works pretty well. I have been on a prescription sleep aid that, it’s not bad, but I kind of want to get off of it. And so, this actually works. So yes, I consume CBD. I have no problem with it at all.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah. The CBD and the CBN are good. That’s a good combo.

Brad Daw:
And it’s a reputable company, that’s trying to play ball by the rules and they’re doing a good job. And I’m very happy to work with them, and support their product.

Tim Pickett:
So what does the legislature have against the flower? Is it really just because, the argument I’ve heard that and that I tell my patients, frankly. Because we’re a no flame state, in the THC side is, there’s a lot of lung damage that you’re avoiding by not using a flame.

Brad Daw:
Right.

Tim Pickett:
But is that the only argument that was happening at the time? Is it this image too, to this image of raw bud?

Brad Daw:
It depends who you talk to. Law enforcement doesn’t like it because there’s no way to properly distinguish between legal and illegal marijuana. That’s a problem for them. And people say, “Well, I can put it in a container, or I can go buy a container and put raw bud in it.” So that’s a problem for them, and we can dispute whether marijuana should be illegal or not. But for law enforcement, since it’s still illegal, they have a concern with that.

Brad Daw:
There is kind of the notion that raw bud is just a little bit easier to abuse. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but it seems at least to be more related to what you do recreationally, and it feels a little less like a medicine. So was kind of an image thing, about it. Now, I was concerned about it, because it seemed like you got kind of real problems with dosing and accuracy. The fact is, if you take two different… I mean, especially me as a novice, you take raw bud from two different bands, and one of them makes you higher than a kite, and the other one makes you drowsy. And, dosage is a little bit tricky.

Brad Daw:
Now, maybe it’s not, but I’ve talked to Ed Redd and he says, “Well, no. The fact is, you take raw bud and you measure it pretty carefully and you know what you’re getting to begin with. And you vape it right and you get a pretty accurate dosing.” So I’m a little less leery of raw bud. And really for me, the only angst I have left about it is, it’s too… It’s the same, it’s a kissing cousin to illegal use of cannabis.

Brad Daw:
It’s kind of the same thing where, we sell morphine, we don’t sell heroin. We sell morphine in pills and shots and that sort of thing, we don’t sell the black tar that you heat with a spoon and then main line. You know what I’m saying? It’s the same kind of concept of, if it’s medicinal, let’s create genuinely medicinal forms. So if raw bud is a medicinal form, so be it.

Tim Pickett:
Got it. And it’s kind of heartening, frankly, to hear you say things that I would anticipate… I would hope, that the legislature understands. I was just back in North Carolina, testifying at a state Senate Judiciary Committee meeting. In North Carolina, they’re trying to pass a medical marijuana bill right now.

Brad Daw:
Right.

Tim Pickett:
And they have good support. But the legislatures we talked to… Boy, it was, some of them really don’t know anything at all. I hate to put it that way, but that’s just the fact. It just was, it was pretty interesting. So, timeline goes a little forward, the 2018. You’re you’re now the chief sponsor of the cannabis. Was that the cannabis updates or the original?

Brad Daw:
That’s the update.

Tim Pickett:
That was the update. So we already have…

Brad Daw:
Yeah. What happened is, the referendum passed. Now, this may be a point of argument or contention, but the referendum as passed was unworkable. It had some very blatant contradictions in it, and both sides I think, ultimately acknowledged that it had some real problems. They had negotiated a compromise. I had been adamant enough about, “This is a wedge issue towards recreational,” it was better for me not to be in the negotiations. And the sponsor in the House of the compromise bill, that basically… Some people will say overturned, I would say, properly implemented the referendum. Not the referendum, the initiative.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah. The initiative, because the initiative allowed… In the industry, and there’s some patient groups who are like, “Okay, we had,” I think they had smoke-able flower, and they had grow your own. They had home grow, in the compromise. But the story, as the story has been told actually on this podcast with Desiree Hennessy, from the Utah Patients Coalition. The LDS, one of the big players, the LDS Church said, “Look, we’re going to oppose this, and that’s not going to go well in Utah.” And the legislature agreed, with some of the things that needed to be changed. And so before it even passed, this was already, “If it does pass, we’re going to do something with it.”

Brad Daw:
No, either way. Passed or not passed.

Tim Pickett:
Either way.

Brad Daw:
Yeah. It was going to go either way.

Tim Pickett:
I see.

Brad Daw:
So, there was no… Now. By it passing, it probably accelerated the timeline. Because like I say, there were some issues in there that needed to be addressed immediately, because they just made… They put law enforcement and doctors and patients in kind of an impossible situation. And I’d have to go back and kind of think about what it was, but it was a very difficult situation. But, the gentleman’s agreement, which I firmly believe would have been honored is, “Whether or not the initiative passes, we will move forward with this compromise.”

Brad Daw:
And the LDS Church, which I think was fully prepared to launch a fairly aggressive campaign, backed down. And all that being said, the initiative passed by a fairly narrow margin.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah.

Brad Daw:
So it was what it was, but there was no intent if the initiative failed, to basically just go back to square zero. We had a compromise in place. There had been a full-on press conference, in which the LDS Church, legislative leadership, the sponsors of the bill and everybody had spoken to it. So it would have been a pretty major egg-on-the-face thing, if the legislature at that point would have said, “Well, it didn’t pass, so… On you.” It just wouldn’t happen.

Tim Pickett:
Right. So that compromise gets done. And there’s a few things right away… I mean, that was about when… I got involved in 2019, end of 2019.

Brad Daw:
Right.

Tim Pickett:
And we still had the idea that when the first pharmacy opened, as far as the statute was concerned, we were going to get blister packs for flower.

Brad Daw:
Yep.

Tim Pickett:
And everybody knew, there were some things that had to be changed right away. Just as a matter of logistics, production. Did you notice that right away, when the bill got passed? When the original compromise got passed?

Brad Daw:
Yep. Look, every year. When I was up there, every year, we started… I mean, literally, the day after the session. And there were a couple of times we even had that special session, just to fix something that clearly was broken. And then we started, we’d start the day after the session on the next bill to say, “Okay, here’s the laundry list of things we’re going to do next year to kind of clean things up.”

Brad Daw:
I mean, the fact is that, Utah has never been in the business… Some people will take umbrage with this. In fact, what Utah was trying to do, was be the FDA, the DEA. I mean, they were trying to create an entire structure, that they’d never had to do before. This was all new territory. And we were going to receive no help from the federal government, or maybe didn’t even want help from the federal government. We just had to figure this all out. And so, yeah. It’s a work in progress.

Brad Daw:
I’m a software engineer by profession. And so, I’m very used to the idea that you release software that works pretty well, but has bugs in it. And then, it’s an ongoing process to fix problems as they come up. There’s problems now, there’s things that are going on now with supply chain and different things like that, that aren’t quite right. There’s problems with a lack of research in the state, that still need to be fixed. It’s going to be an ongoing issue for years to come. And we’re looking at other states and seeing what they’re doing. And hopefully, at some point, there will be enough states to get together a really good framework, that’s generally medical, that the federal government take notice of and go, “Okay, maybe we better just have a national program. We have this in 50 or 49, whatever states.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah, there’s now 37 states with some type of program.

Brad Daw:
37 states.

Tim Pickett:
I mean, it’s a lot.

Brad Daw:
Yeah.

Tim Pickett:
There’s a lot of progress. What other states did you guys look at? Is that a thing? You’re looking at, “Okay. In this state they’re doing this.”

Brad Daw:
Yeah. Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, were two of the main ones. Wisconsin has got a very locked down programs. Pennsylvania has, I think, a really good program. I can’t remember, it seemed like New Orleans… Not new Orleans, but Louisiana, had a pretty decent program as I recall, that they were implementing. And what we were looking for is states that generally treated it like medicine, and also had a strong research component. So that was the kinds of things we were looking for.

Brad Daw:
I mean, we wanted doctors to feel, not just… Sometimes you have kind of this niche of doctors, who just do cannabis and nothing else. We wanted doctors across the spectrum to say, “Okay, you know what? This has some legitimate use. I’ve seen really good peer reviewed research. I’ve seen enough information. I’m clear on what the side effects are, what the downside is, the contraindications.” I mean, look, you’re a PA. You know as well as I do, there are some people you should not be giving THC to.

Tim Pickett:
That is true.

Brad Daw:
I hope you, I mean, you got to acknowledge that there’s some people, it’s like, “You know what? You better not have THC. It will not go well with you.” Okay?

Tim Pickett:
No, it’s definitely, there’s definitely not. My personal view is, it’s great as a medicine, it can be very effective for certain individuals with certain conditions. It’s relatively safe to try, for the most part. That’s my opinion of it. And that, I think, bears out in the research. And that’s why I’m fascinated with the idea of legislation.

Tim Pickett:
Cannabis is unique as a drug. Because it’s legislated, it’s one of the only parts of medical practice that just has such a legislative component in this legal, crime. There’s this whole history of, in this entire country, of marijuana in general.

Brad Daw:
Yep.

Tim Pickett:
And it puts everybody into a… I don’t know, it seems like a heightened state. Everybody’s got a…

Brad Daw:
And plus… You’re absolutely right. And the reason for that is because you have this conundrum, that really, it’s illegal. I mean, what we’re doing as a state is, basically violating federal law. Now we can talk about niceties, like recommending instead of prescribing, and et cetera. And fair use and all that kind of stuff.

Tim Pickett:
Sure.

Brad Daw:
At the end of the day, it’s illegal. Federally. I mean, if the DA decided to… I think the hue and cry would be fascinating, but if the DA to, say, to move into a pharmacy in any state in the nation and say, “We’re shutting you down.”

Tim Pickett:
Yeah.

Brad Daw:
What do you do?

Tim Pickett:
I mean, the fact is, “This is cannabis and it’s illegal. And I don’t care what you say, we’re shutting you down.” The fact they haven’t done it is fascinating, but it means we have all these legislative loopholes and pitfalls and traps, and all that kind of stuff. I mean, it would be much nicer… Two things. It would be nice, really, really nice, if cannabis in general were Schedule 2. I mean, name some on drugs that are Schedule 2 that are scary.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Well, I mean, Percocet, Lortab, benzos.

Brad Daw:
Cocaine!

They’re all… But, I mean, I’m going to go along this line. And you have a regulatory framework, you have interstate commerce, everything is all set up. If you just make it Schedule 2. It’s all there.

Brad Daw:
You make it Schedule 2… Look. And all of the research that could go on. Okay? I might be a little more skeptical than you. I think that there have been some serious side effects from cannabis. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong, but let’s find out. I mean, good grief. Let’s start having some double blind studies. Let’s get this out in the open. I mean, you’ve talked to the U of U, and they say, “Yeah, we have a Schedule 1 license.” “Well, how many people do you study it on?” We finally do have a person study, which I had not seen the results of.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah.

Brad Daw:
They said, “Well, we study on dogs.” “Well, good for you. You’ve got a Schedule 1 license, and you study on dogs. Way to go.”

Tim Pickett:
Right. And 37 states… Well, and now 35,000 Utahns are legal cannabis users, now.

Brad Daw:
Yeah.

Tim Pickett:
So there’s got to be more we can do, from a human research perspective. Compare it to different drugs. The comparative studies, I’m most interested in. Compare Ambien and a little THC and CBD and CBN. Let’s compare it. Let’s see.

Brad Daw:
I’d love to see that. I’d love to see that, because I think, I mean everything I hear… And again, from advocates to people who know the chemistry, say a little bit of THC, not a lot. A lot that doesn’t make you high, but a little bit in there, really puts a spark plug on that compound. It really likes… It makes it much more effective without really modifying the mood of the person.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah.

Brad Daw:
So, those kinds of studies where… I mean, the fact is, we know how opioids work inside and out. We know them backwards and forwards. We know how a lot of these OTC drugs work. But cannabis? What’s the long-term effects? How does it work on kids? What happens if you have other drugs you’re taking with it? Well, it’s probably safe, but maybe it’s not. There might be some new drug that comes out that you take cannabis with it and… Who knows?

Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I actually worry about that, those drug interactions worse than anything is that, you’d get somebody on cannabis and they’d be using it fine. And then they come out with something new, and there’s no data about it. They’re not doing any research about it. And then somebody has a bad outcome.

Brad Daw:
Exactly, yep.

Tim Pickett:
And then, if the federal government has hasn’t fixed it yet, then you’ve got a worse conundrum. Right? But there’s still the gun ownership issue. You’ve got to fill out the form, and you’ve got to either lie, or not buy a gun, on your federal ATF form. You’ve got law enforcement. I think still, even though they… There’s a little bit of trickiness, I feel like, with law enforcement. Still, with THC. You’ve got on the highway side, the federal side. Of course, crossing state lines was an issue, up until we had enough product in Utah to sell. But it’s still going to be an issue. I mean, you’ve got a couple of dispensaries who make their living on Utahns, right off the border.

Brad Daw:
Right. And that’s true. All of it. But yeah, you’re right. If we could have interstate commerce, we could have it be Schedule 2. If we have all the research. I would happily, if I was in the legislature, I would happily roll back our Utah regulation and let it fall under… I mean, the feds do plenty of things wrong, and right. But the fact is, if we have a consistent regulatory envelope that encompasses all medication, it just seems like it would be better for everybody. If we could do that. And this really ridiculous conundrum we have, it’s just a giant headache.

Tim Pickett:
Do you feel like the qualification list that Utah put together is pretty good? Did you argue one way or the other on expanding it, things like that? Did you have a part to play in that?

Brad Daw:
I thought it was okay. And I was comfortable because we got the compassionate use board, and we tracked that. And the one thing that comes up pretty clearly is, there have been some compassionate use applicants, and they have received it. But as I recall, it’s been a while since we’ve had a hearing on it, but it seems like there’s not very many that are having to go to compassionate use for us. And they always manage to find something unlisted. And the fact is, if you have, let’s say you have lupus or something like that, that’s not on the list? The fact is you probably have chronic pain, and that is on the list. So, there’s some symptoms you probably have, that is on the list somewhere. If you really have something that cannabis is going to help. Now, could we refine it? Yeah, we probably could. And over time, as research comes in, I suspect we will.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah.

Brad Daw:
But when I see, if we were to see… Again, speaking as, not there right now. If we were to see a huge surge in compassionate use for a major condition, then that’s a pretty solid argument. “Hey, we should move that to the list.”

Tim Pickett:
Yeah.

Brad Daw:
I haven’t seen that, maybe it’s happening now, but I haven’t seen it. So I feel like, we probably hit the list pretty close.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah. I think on the medical side, on the medical clinic side and seeing patients, we have what we call a medical cannabis advisory group, with the Utah Cannabis Association, a group of QMPs and pharmacists. Small group, who’s developing a survey. Because on the one hand, you’re absolutely right. If you had lupus, or you had something that caused pain, you could qualify under pain. And then you get access. On the other hand, from a medical standpoint, we like to know what the diagnosis is. It’s not as good for research, if everybody just qualifies for pain. It would be easier if we had, “Oh yeah, you qualify for insomnia. You qualify for neuropathy.” And I can separate those out from a research perspective.

Brad Daw:
Right.

Tim Pickett:
So we like, me personally, I kind of… I don’t mind the list, because you’re right. With the chronic pain that brings in quite a few people who want to, and who do qualify for, a medical marijuana card. And like I say, on the other hand, I’d like to expand the list a little so we can do a little bit better research, and target that.

Brad Daw:
There again, it’s kind of a chicken and egg thing. Ideally what you’d like is something like a PDR, right?

Tim Pickett:
Yeah.

Brad Daw:
Physician’s Desk Reference, which is, “Here’s the list of conditions. Here’s how cannabis responds to it. Here’s,” maybe, “the dosage profile you want to look at. And if necessary, here’s some black box labels where you really don’t want to be using cannabis. It’s not the right, say, ” Here’s the drugs for interaction.” If we had all of that research in place, then it would be easy. I guess the reason that I see for the list, more than anything else, is you have a lot of doctors out there who are like, “I don’t know what to prescribe it for.”

Tim Pickett:
It’s so true. We do as much education for the other QMP’s as we probably do for patients. Just because, that’s the case. Once you know about it, once you learn about it… And the growers, and the pharmacists. What do you think… This kind of changes gears a little bit. What do you think about the pharmacists in the pharmacies, here in Utah? Do you think that was good? A good way to go? Or too expensive?

Brad Daw:
Absolutely necessary. Yeah. Absolutely necessary. I’ll tell you why. I see other states that have bud-tenders who have no qualifications whatsoever, or required qualifications. And that scares me to death. I mean, I’ve heard stories and again, maybe I didn’t know, maybe I’m just being paranoid. But it would seem to me that, if there’s no qualification, if all I have is a card, which is not the card saying, “I have this condition and I need this kind of a dosage profile which I’m sure you as a PA, that’s what you do. You don’t just say, “Go buy marijuana.” You say, “Here’s…

Tim Pickett:
No, but there are a lot of… there’s plenty of QMP’s out there, I’m sure do that. And like you just finished saying, there’s a lot of docs and PAs, nurse practitioners, who are going to be like, “Eh, I don’t know. You qualify, but I don’t know what to tell you, after that.”

Brad Daw:
And the idea is, if we have some specialized pharmacists, they’ve got the pharmacy background. So they’re very comfortable with all the things you need to know about dispensing a drug. And then they specialize in cannabis, so they’ve got that additional expertise that says, “Okay, we know about those dosage, we know about conditions,” all that kind of stuff. And so now you’ve got a resource that people can call and say, “Well, okay, I’ve got a patient with so-and-so. What do you think?” And have that consultation.

Brad Daw: That helps the doctor and the patient, because the doctor is more focused on maybe the body and the physiology, and the pharmacist is more focused on the dosage and the side… Whatever it is. But they work together.

Brad Daw:
With a bud-tender, it seems like you have the potential for, “I’ve got a right to shop card. I can walk into a dispensary in,” well, let’s just say Colorado, right? And the bud-tender, if he’s even slightly unethical or unscrupulous, or just figures that making money is his cage. And you know what? I’m going to try to sell you the most addictive, high-producing stuff I can, because I want you as a repeat patient. Now, maybe that’s paranoia on my part, but it just doesn’t feel medical, when you go into a bud-tender and he’s recommending whatever, without any medical training whatsoever.

Brad Daw:
So to me, the pharmacist is a really important part of the whole medical plan that makes it medicine not… Well, I will use an analogy that was promoted by… Do you know who Scott Imler is?

Tim Pickett:
No.

Brad Daw:
Scott Imler is the author of the original California medical cannabis bill. And he, to this day, openly regrets some of the things he did. Because what he says now about California is, the dispensers in California, in his words, not mine.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah.

Brad Daw:
Are nothing more than drug dealers with a storefront. And we don’t want to be that. So yeah, to me, the pharmacy is a big deal.

Tim Pickett:
I think there’s other states, definitely. I know when I was in North Carolina, they had a lot of questions about the pharmacist and about that regulation. And it does seem like it’s a good argument from a medical standpoint, to have a pharmacist in there.

Brad Daw:
Right.

Tim Pickett:
We really, we communicate with them all the time. I have another question for you. And that is, why is the state of Utah… Why did they decide not to charge sales tax?

Brad Daw:
That was a huge push from Libertas. First of all, they don’t want any taxes, but it’s the same reason we don’t charge sales tax on any other medication. If you go and buy opioids from a pharmacy, there’s no sales tax. So the idea is that, charging, taxing for an important medical thing, important medicine is kind of… You’re just digging into the patient even more. So let’s not put the state overhead on that. Now, the downside to that is, we could do the sales tax, maybe earmark a little bit for different things. But that was kind of a negotiated point.

Tim Pickett:
The patients like it, I know the patients still complain that things are too expensive, but there’s a lot of reasons for that. And we talked to, multiple, multiple guests have talked about really, how expensive it is now. But comparing that to other states. And then, everybody seems to agree that prices will come down for patients over time.

Brad Daw:
Yeah. We need to increase supply. We need to make sure supply meets demand. And one of the ironies you have, is when you have a number of growers, it becomes in their best interest to limit the supply. And, that’s a problem. So it would be nice if there was enough grown to meet demand, in an economical way. And of course, some of the demand, there are some patients who just… Since they’re paying cash for it, may decide, “You know what? I got my insurance, I’ll go and try different routes.” And so that decreases demand in a way you don’t want it decreased, because if cannabis really is the better route, you want that to be accessible to the patients. So that’s an ongoing problem.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah. So what’s next for Brad Daw?

Brad Daw:
Well, let’s see. I’ve got dinner at 6:00, so… I mean, look. I’ve got public service in the blood and… What do I do, specifically? Well, it depends. I’ve worked with the hemp growers. I’ve worked with legislators trying to help make sure that the hemp law is right, because that’s kind of my baby, I did that… Not on my own, but essentially, that was my bill. And got it passed in a kind of miraculous sort of way, honestly.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah.

Brad Daw:
And I’ve been very proud of the fact that Utah has a pretty decent hemp industry now, because of it. And of course, I’m very involved in the cannabis side of things. I’ve been involved in other election issues. So, I don’t see stepping away completely. Right now, I’ve got plenty going on with work and family and stuff. I’ve got, always, plenty to do. But I don’t see myself staying completely out of the public arena for any length of time. I mean, I’ve on here to do a podcast, and it’s been great fun to talk with you. It’s been a real opportunity.

Tim Pickett:
Yeah. Well, thanks for coming on. Is there someplace we can follow you, or that listeners can pay attention to what you’re doing?

Brad Daw:
Honestly, I don’t really post much anymore. I don’t do much on social media so, not really. I may start up again…

Tim Pickett:
That’s all right.

Brad Daw:
… but, no. I use my Facebook page for family pictures. I’ve got an Elect Brad Daw page, but I don’t really keep that up to date. If things change, you’ll see it. But right now, I don’t do much. Most of my work is more behind the scenes, working with people in office, and different policy makers. That’s kind of where I’m living right now. I’m not doing much, publicly.

Tim Pickett:
You’re smart.

Brad Daw:
It has its benefits.

Tim Pickett:
I’m sure that has its benefits, at this point in time. Well, thanks again for coming on. You can find these podcasts at utahmarijuana.org/podcast.

Tim Pickett:
Again, Brad Daw. Thanks for coming. Great conversation. Take care. Is there anything you want to say before we let everybody go?

Brad Daw:
Genuine pleasure, and have me back on anytime you like. I really love talking policy, and you’ve been a lot of fun to talk with. I’ve enjoyed your medical expertise, that’s made it really interesting for me. So I appreciate it, and I’d be happy to come on again anytime.

Tim Pickett:
Great. Thanks. All right, everybody. Stay safe out there.

 

What to Expect in This Episode

Episode 70 of Utah in the Weeds features Chris Jeffery and Richard Maloney of WholesomeCo, a Medical Cannabis pharmacy in Bountiful, next door to a Utah Therapeutic Health Center clinic.

They told us about the launch of WholesomeCo’s delivery program, which gives Utah patients a convenient option for obtaining their Medical Marijuana. [05:05]

Next, they told us about the experience of having cannabis delivered from the perspective of a new patient. [12:08]

WholesomeCo is dedicated to serving the needs of Utah’s Medical Marijuana patients. They believe patients’ needs should always be the driving force behind what they do. [13:52]

WholesomeCo customers used to pay fees to have their Medical Cannabis delivered, but the company stopped charging for deliveries in August. Chris and Richard told us a little bit about the factors that led them to make their deliveries free. [15:39]

Chris and Richard also talked about the recent changes in WholesomeCo’s payment processing, which now allows patients to make cannabis purchases with debit cards instead of cash. [20:25]

WholesomeCo is more than a Medical Cannabis pharmacy and delivery service. Did you know they’re also growing cannabis?  WholesomeCo has a greenhouse in Garland, and they’re using feedback from their patients to guide their decisions about which strains to grow.  Look for WholesomeCo’s recycled glass packaging when their flower becomes available in Utah dispensaries later this year.  [26:11]

Tim, Chris, and Richard talked about the State of Utah’s Medical Cannabis advertising restrictions, which prevent pharmacies like WholesomeCo from placing advertisements. [31:34]

Many of Utah’s Medical Marijuana patients qualify for the program under one condition, but they also use cannabis for secondary, non-qualifying conditions. Tim, Chris, and Jeffery talked about some of these secondary conditions and how they might influence the future of Utah’s Medical Cannabis program. [34:12]

Utah’s Medical Marijuana industry is growing quickly, and that means businesses like WholesomeCo have to be ready to serve more and more patients. [37:09]

We wrapped up this episode with a quick preview of WholesomeCo’s upcoming iOS app, which will make it easier for patients to register, consult with a pharmacist, or shop for Medical Cannabis. [40:39]

Resources in This Episode

• Visit WholesomeCo’s website: wholesome.co
• Follow WholesomeCo on Facebook and Instagram 
• Follow the podcast at UtahMarijuana.org.
• Subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Discover Marijuana.
• Follow our Instagram page, utah_marijuana_org.

Podcast Transcript

Tim Pickett:

Welcome everybody out to Utah in the Weeds. My name is Tim Pickett. I am your host.

Tim Pickett:

You’ll notice today on Episode 70 that Chris Holifield is no longer hosting. For right now, I’m going to host by myselrf. I love Chris. He’s a great friend of mine, and has turned his attention to his other podcast, I am Salt Lake. I want to make sure that I give a shout out to Chris. He’s been a great co-host, taught me everything I know about podcasting, about recording with people.

Tim Pickett:

He is an amazing advocate for the cannabis space, has given this podcast and everybody a lot of great content and a lot of great interviews. So shout out to him. I’m sad to see him go, but I’m happy for him to move on to his real estate business, and he has a great family. If you guys ever need a realtor, Chris Holifield is the reefer realtor as far as I’m concerned. And look him up if you ever need to buy a house or condo, anything in real estate. He’s a great guy. Reach out to him. And sad to see him go. It is definitely harder than it looks to do the podcast, and he makes it look easy.

Tim Pickett:

Today’s episode, Episode 70, is an interview with Chris Jeffrey, the CEO of Wholesome, as well as Richard Maloney, the head of retail with Wholesome. And I think everybody can agree, that has been to WholesomeCo and been a part of their retail process, they have a stellar retail process. They treat everybody with great respect. They have a great staff in there. All of the people behind the counter are second to none in the Utah market. Very happy to be involved in the cannabis space with them.

Tim Pickett:

My name is Tim Pickett again. I’m your host of Utah in the Weeds. You can find us on any podcast player that you can subscribe to, Apple, Spotify. And you can also find us online at utahmarijuana.org/podcast, utahmarijuana.org. You can also find us on YouTube. And on YouTube you’re going to want to go to the channel called Discover Marijuana. That is my channel on YouTube. There’s a ton of educational content there, and all of the podcast episodes from start to finish can be seen and heard there on YouTube. Happy to have you guys subscribe to that channel as well.

Tim Pickett:

Today’s conversation we get into the delivery system of Wholesome, Wholesome Direct is what it’s called, and the trials and tribulations of being involved in this cannabis space as a retail operator for the entirety of 2020. Now, WholesomeCo is just over a year old, for those of you who went out to their anniversary. It was a pretty big event, and this is a great conversation about that. We touch on their grow and some products that are going to be coming out in the fall, some of their flower, because they do have a grow license. So stay tuned on announcements for that.

Tim Pickett:

From a housekeeping perspective, I want to let everybody know to tune in to the webinar series. So, I do a webinar series with Zion Medicinal and Blake Smith every other Wednesday. Next Wednesday at 7:30 PM this webinar will be on cannabis and inflammation. We’re going to dive a little bit into the science. Those are really great opportunities to ask questions as a consumer, as a patient, so don’t hesitate to log in to that webinar. You can find out more information there by signing up for our newsletter at utahmarijuana.org.

Tim Pickett:

Let’s get into this conversation with Chris and Richard. Enjoy everybody.

Tim Pickett:

We’re back with Richard Maloney and Chris Jeffery. Remember we were downstairs in the back of your… I mean, what do you guys call it? What’s the internal word for… is it the shop?

Chris Jeffery:

Yeah, the store.

Tim Pickett:

The store.

Chris Jeffery:

And that was the back office, so kind of like a restaurant has front of house and back of house, that’s our back of house, which also is our kitchen.

Tim Pickett:

Right. So we’re in the back of the store.

Richard Maloney:

It slowly evolved to delivery operations.

Tim Pickett:

Oh, back in that area?

Richard Maloney:

Where we did that interview is now where it technically is a registered vault with the state, so we’re capable of storing product in that room if we so please. And then you’ve also got delivery operations that are picking orders, packing orders, putting labels on orders, doing a second verification check when they’re putting those items in the bag to make sure that they’re the exact product that that patient’s ordered.

Tim Pickett:

Okay. So, this is a long ways from where we were a year ago, right?

Richard Maloney:

Yes.

Tim Pickett:

Because it really was… even more than a year ago we talked before, and we had no… I mean, we were just barely getting started.

Richard Maloney:

I think we talked on August 7th. And-

Tim Pickett:

Oh, so almost-

Richard Maloney:

… the official grand-

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, because-

Richard Maloney:

… opening was-

Tim Pickett:

… it was the grand opening.

Richard Maloney:

… August 12th, which we just celebrated the one year anniversary.

Tim Pickett:

You guys had a really awesome one year anniversary. So, talk a little bit about, how has it been over the course of the year, what have you seen with the program? Let’s just go back from that interview and what’s happened since, because so much has happened.

Chris Jeffery:

Yeah. I think internally there’s been a bunch, but I think starting at the market level and how the market’s grown, I think the biggest question mark for me, and a lot of folks in this industry, most likely, is, or was, back in the day, where is this program going in terms of patient counts, are patients going to be active in the program? Those patients that may have been purchasing in other states, are they actually going to start purchasing here in Utah?

Chris Jeffery:

And so seeing that, fast forward a year to August 21, I think we’ve been very pleased with how the patient numbers have grown over the course of that year. And that’s really pointed to our original thesis where the market was going to be at the end of three to four years, closer to maturity. And it’s even ahead of pace from that original thesis.

Chris Jeffery:

And so I think that’s the highest level, most important thing that has come to fruition. And that drives everything internally, whether we invest in delivery, and how quickly we invest in delivery, and how big we go with delivery.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, because, did you feel like you were going to have, when we talked before, did you feel like you were going to have delivery the way… We’re going to get into this today in a big way, but did you feel like you were going to have delivery in the way you have it now? Could you foresee this? Was this in the plan?

Chris Jeffery:

Yes. So, this was part of the plan before we even opened up the physical retail experience. We pushed the state to get delivery launched. They weren’t ready for delivery offering, mostly because of the technology and gaps in data. And so we helped with the API creation to be able to enable delivery and in the tools that enable delivery. We started on that work almost right when we opened up the store, but it wasn’t surfaced from a compliance perspective until January 21 this year.

Chris Jeffery:

So we were hopeful that we actually launch delivery in 2020. We weren’t able to do that, but soon thereafter, late January 21, is when we actually launched delivery. So, more or less, yes. This is how we thought the market was going to develop and how we were going to develop alongside that. But now we’re seeing delivery really on this rocket ship, and so we’re investing even further right now on the delivery operation, which is separate from the retail operation, and that it’s a whole different set of inputs and outputs.

Chris Jeffery:

You have the supply side, which is your delivery vehicles, your scheduling and how many routes you have, you have your delivery drivers, which is a different profile of employee than an agent, you have your delivery ops managers, which manage schedules and availability through each zone each day. So it’s just a different type of business that is… You need the physical retail because, obviously, that’s the entity that’s selling the cannabis, whereas delivery is more of a service business, and so it’s a different set of tasks.

Richard Maloney:

And with that we’ve added a whole customer support arm of our business, which we didn’t have when we just first opened physical retail. But with delivery there can be cases where people need a quick question answered, or they may want to replace a product on their delivery before it goes out.

Richard Maloney:

So Chris invested in a customer support team that now handle a lot of those issues once those orders are placed in our queue in MJ Freeway and those orders are starting to hit the road. We have a team of people that are now dedicated to working with patients that have placed orders for delivery specifically.

Tim Pickett:

Is there any place in the state you don’t deliver to now, or you pretty much cover the whole…

Chris Jeffery:

So right now, according to the patient database, we’re covering roughly 99% of the patients that are in the program today, in terms of allowing for at least one day a week delivery availability.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. Okay. So this is delivery, and I want people to understand this, because we’re in Bountiful, we’re upstairs from Wholesome right now, and you have patients as far south as in Saint George, Bloomington, down the far south tip of the state, we can go east into Moab.

Chris Jeffery:

The one area that we don’t have availability just yet is the very south eastern quadrant, kind of the four corners.

Tim Pickett:

Like Blanding, the four corners area into Montezuma Creek?

Chris Jeffery:

Yeah. What’s challenging is that, if you look at the patient count down there, it’s really hard for us to… I think there’s, last we looked was six patients or seven patients in the program. That’s a five hour drive.

Tim Pickett:

I rotated in Blanding in PA school, and oh my god, it’s a long ways from anywhere down there. I feel for them. They need access, I get that, but you really need a retail center a little closer. It doesn’t make sense to drive all that way.

Chris Jeffery:

Sure. And I think that we just launched Moab, that area, not too long ago, maybe a month ago, and we’re seeing some great growth there. And I think that we’ll eventually cover that southeastern quadrant. But remember, we just launched this in January, so we’re still less than a year into it. And so we do think we’re going to have 100% of the patient population covered here probably within a year of launching, so by January 2022.

Tim Pickett:

It’s pretty impressive. And I think the state… I don’t know. Has the state given you feedback on… They better be appreciative of your willingness to travel. Because is there somebody else who’s doing this type of delivery?

Chris Jeffery:

I think there’s one or two other operators. I don’t know too much of where they’re delivering and how often they’re delivering to certain areas. As I’ve told the team, we have the components of building a business in our hand right now, so let’s focus on what we’re doing. But I do know there’s some operators. I think Dragonfly’s doing some delivery. But, remember, our team is actually coming from the delivery world, the food delivery world, and so we have a unique advantage in scaling operation like delivery.

Tim Pickett:

You got the expertise.

Chris Jeffery:

Yeah. And we did food before we did cannabis, and food is really challenging. You got to get it right in 45 minutes, and if you forget the fries, you have to go pick up the fries.

Tim Pickett:

Oh, my gosh.

Chris Jeffery:

And so you’re making about a buck an order. So, getting that right at scale is super challenging. And so we think this is a much… it’s not easy, but it’s a different set of inputs and outputs that make it a lot more palatable than food.

Tim Pickett:

So how long does it take if I’m in… What’s your average distance, right, average distance patient? Let’s put them in Orem or point in the mountain down someplace a little bit further away. Oh, Draper. Let’s put them in Draper. Right?

Richard Maloney:

Same day.

Tim Pickett:

So I order… Same day?

Richard Maloney:

Within two hours.

Tim Pickett:

Okay. What’s the process like? I’m a patient, right, I come see me, Tim, right, get my evaluation, three days later, takes about three days to get your card, you get online, you do a pharmacist consultation virtually right now, because we can do that.

Richard Maloney:

Yeah. Or in person, if they want to do that.

Tim Pickett:

Or in person, so you’re registered. I get online. I can do an order. Take me through the process.

Chris Jeffery:

Yes. So I think the first step is the patient verification. So, if you’ve already had a consult, we have automated that process to verify you in an automated way by checking the backend to make sure that you actually have gone through that consultation process. If you haven’t you can do the virtual consult or the in person consult. And once you’re approved in our system, in our database, then you can place an order, whether that’s for pickup and pick it up in store or whether that’s for delivery.

Chris Jeffery:

Now, delivery, it really depends on where you’re located. So, in the I-15 corridor we have same day delivery availability, so you can get your order delivered on Draper same day, which is a little bit later in the day. And then as you get closer to our store, like Salt Lake County, Davis County, and part of Weaver, you can have same day, which is typically within a three hour window. It’s closer to on demand, but it’s not fully on demand just yet.

Tim Pickett:

I mean, come on. That’s as on demand as you need.

Richard Maloney:

It’s pretty good.

Chris Jeffery:

Yeah. I mean, we want to continue to offer more and more convenience, and on demand is kind of the Holy Grail. But remember, food is a different industry. Food is… everyone’s eating three times a day.

Tim Pickett:

I think you’re setting the bar so high with your background in food that you’re overkill.

Chris Jeffery:

Yeah. Well-

Tim Pickett:

But that’s good.

Chris Jeffery:

… not yet.

Tim Pickett:

I mean, that’s patient care.

Chris Jeffery:

We’ll get to-

Tim Pickett:

Right?

Chris Jeffery:

… the point of overkill, and we’ll be like, okay, we’re overkill. We’re not there quite yet.

Richard Maloney:

Yeah. I think we do, in a way, speak to one of our core values, which is patient’s needs define what we do and how we do it. And I think a lot of medical cannabis dispensaries, or pharmacies, or recreational stores in any of these states could make a similar statement, that they’re all about the patient, they’re all about this.

Richard Maloney:

I truly believe that we embody that, because we drove one order to Saint George. That’s a five and a half hour drive. We obviously don’t make any money on that. But I truly believe we’re embodying this motto of patients’ needs defining what we do when we do go to these extreme lengths to get them their medicine.

Richard Maloney:

And I don’t feel that there’s very many competitors in the Utah market or other markets that are really committed to that convenience factor, and we’re going to bring this thing to your doorstep, you don’t even have to go anywhere. And I feel like we’ve made some serious strides in order to have what Chris talks about, that on demand experience, like you’re ordering from DoorDash or any of those other platforms.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. I mean, I can talk to this about how my staff, Utah Therapeutic Health Center, or what patients say, and it’s, to be honest, it’s hard for people to talk about anything else right now. The conversation really is around delivery, and around how Wholesome will deliver anywhere, and you’ve even recently removed your delivery fee. So for a while you were charging a delivery fee, but now… What makes you decide to do that? Do you to get to a certain point of volume and you’re like, okay, well, you know what, we can do this?

Chris Jeffery:

Yeah. I mean, you have to look at… what we coin, and it’s something that any consumer facing businesses looks at, it’s your unit economics. So, what’s the average order ticket value, how far are you driving, so what’s the cost of your order. And we’ve seen an increase in our average ticket versus in store, which has given us the confidence that we can actually do this for free.

Chris Jeffery:

Now, there’s definitely orders that we lose money, like Richard just gave you an example. We’ll deliver down to Saint George, we’ll take one order down, we’re losing money on that order. But that’s okay. We’re still in this early growth phase of our business and-

Tim Pickett:

Sure. You’re building fans.

Chris Jeffery:

Yeah. We’ve invested well ahead of where the revenue is today because we know where the puck’s going.

Tim Pickett:

Well, and I think, to your point, Richard, the fact is the patients need it, and, I mean, the economics don’t really work. We opened a space in the same building as Bloom, and the economics of being in Cedar City, they’re not the same as being in Millcreek, right, where all the people are, but people need access, regardless, people need access.

Tim Pickett:

And I just got back from North Carolina testifying in a state senate committee meeting about the fact that this is medicine. So I’m totally on board with the argument that it just is… It is what it is. People need their medicine. And if you believe this is medicine, and people need it like medicine, then this seems to be an easier argument to make, right? Well, we’re just going to deliver down there.

Chris Jeffery:

Well, and it’s also, I think, to this point around access, in a market like Moab where there’s not a physical presence of a store, this is going to help with bringing more patients into the program that actually need the medicine.

Chris Jeffery:

I think a lot of patients that don’t have a store right down the corner from their house, they may not join the program, and they might be buying from a different state, or just not even know that this is a medicine that could help them. And so by us offering delivery in such a wide way, wide access way, I think that that’s going to drive… that has driven new patients to the program.

Chris Jeffery:

And so, that’s something we told the state from day one, “You guys enable us with delivery, you approve this and get us launched, we will drive more patients into the program.”

Tim Pickett:

Have you seen, with delivery, needing that patient almost like a… what we call the patient experience team where we… that’s our team, and you have to have this customer support team because it’s a cumbersome…

Richard Maloney:

There’s a lot of moving parts, lots of different systems that we’re working within today to enable these deliveries. So, I think when you add in a lot more moving parts things become more complex, and then you need to level up the service that you’re giving people.

Richard Maloney:

We as WholesomeCo never want to hear a patient come and say, “Oh, no one answers the phone.”, or, “I never got a response from my email.”, or, “Never heard back on this question I had.” We want to get out ahead of that. We want to proactively communicate with people. So, when their orders are getting placed for deliveries where we have a full script that they’re sending out when they send that text message that we’ve got your order all packed up for you, it’s about to hit the road.

Richard Maloney:

We’re overly communicating with our patients, and I think we’ve seen some feedback from them of how awesome it is. They’re getting almost communicated to better than a DoorDash or a well-established cfood delivery company. So I think the more proactive we are in our communication with our patients, the better the experience is. And I think you need to have those warm bodies in a seat to have those phone calls and to answer those emails, because you never want to leave somebody hanging.

Chris Jeffery:

And it’s a different type of business too than physical retail. Physical retail, most of the issues that arise are in person, you can deal with them through your agents or your pharmacists that are here on staff in person and face to face communications. Once you start scaling a digital experience, which delivery is that, you’re front of line workers or virtual. They’re the customer service people. And then from that they field all the questions.

Chris Jeffery:

If we need to alert a pharmacist because it’s a very specific medical question on how to use this category of products and if it’s right for that person, that will then be offloaded to the pharmacists team, versus maybe it’s an agent that actually needs to service someone some certain question or some certain concern. But we have that front of line worker to then take that call, whether it’s an email or a phone call or a text, and route that to the right person. So it is a different type of business than physical retail.

Tim Pickett:

When you order the product online and we get all the way to pay we know downstairs, typically, you’re still using cash, but we can’t use cash because the law… it says, right, in the law, you can’t use cash on a delivery driver, so what’s the… How do you get over that?

Chris Jeffery:

Yeah. So we started with one provider that we had some issues with. It was kind of like a Venmo for cannabis type thing, so you had to download an app and tie it to your bank account. So it was kind of a debit ACH transfer. That wasn’t working as well. And so, one of the things that we unlocked just recently was, we replaced that provider with another provider that was handheld debit swipe machines, so at the point of delivery.

Chris Jeffery:

So just like if you eat out somewhere… I know in Europe they had this… when I was there, you sit at your table, they come up with that handheld thing, you’d swipe your credit card, and your funds would transfer. Now this isn’t credit card, but it’s debit card, so you actually swipe your debit card, you type in your pin, and funds are transferred at the point of delivery. And so that’s really solved a lot of the issues that we had with that first solution that we were using.

Tim Pickett:

So now I get all the way through the cart, I select my products, you verify that I’m a patient, you verify that I have the limits associated with my recommendation in the system by my QMP, and now you launch that delivery. They come to my house. I haven’t paid anything yet. I’m there. I have to be there. Just so everybody knows, the patient has to be there with their ID.

Chris Jeffery:

That’s right.

Tim Pickett:

You have to verify that with the driver. We call them-

Chris Jeffery:

Yeah.

Tim Pickett:

… a driver, right? And then you use a debit card. And that’s the only source of payment that you’ll take. So they don’t have any cash. And I just swipe my debit card right there. Do you ever run into like, oh, I brought the wrong product, or I need to change the amount of the bill, or things like that, or is this pretty much dial?

Chris Jeffery:

Yeah, all that stuff is dialed in before. And we have multiple points to check that. I think Richard alluded to earlier. We have multiple teams that are checking to make sure that order’s exactly the order that has been ordered. The one issue that we’ve had come up a couple of times is that someone swipes a debit card, and, for some reason, the funds aren’t in the bank account.

Tim Pickett:

In the right account.

Chris Jeffery:

Unfortunately, we can’t drop off the order, we have to collect the payment. So in that instance we’ll have to return the order and then we can schedule it for the next day that we’re actually in that area, which is typically the following day. But we’ve had a patient or two that they get upset because they’ve been waiting for their order, the order shows up, and the funds-

Tim Pickett:

Oh, shoot.

Chris Jeffery:

… aren’t there.

Tim Pickett:

They don’t have the funds.

Chris Jeffery:

Yeah. So in terms of-

Tim Pickett:

Look, that’s not on you. I get that.

Chris Jeffery:

You’re right. So we actually do a lot of communications prior to the order to say, make sure you have your debit card, your ID…

Tim Pickett:

You’re going to be there.

Chris Jeffery:

… you’re going to be there.

Tim Pickett:

Do you ever run into like, you show up the house and the patient’s-

Chris Jeffery:

A couple of times.

Tim Pickett:

… not there?

Richard Maloney:

That happens from time to time. But I’m actually pretty impressed people are at home ready to get their medicine. And they’re there with a big smile on their face when you show up. So, I think our delivery drivers feel like superheroes when they come back to the shop after a day’s work, because everyone greets them with open arms.

Chris Jeffery:

Well, the key there though is you are able to select the time that works for the order to be dropped off. So, if there’s a time today that doesn’t work when you’re going through that ordering process… You select, okay, from 3:00 PM to 5:00 PM, for example. Well, if that doesn’t work you can order five days or actually six days in advance. So, you can say, well, tomorrow from 10:00 to noon works better.

Chris Jeffery:

And so you can select that window that works for your lifestyle. And that’s you basically committing to say, yeah, I’m going to be home at that two hour timeframe. And then we alert you before we leave that, hey, make sure…

Tim Pickett:

Hey, we’re on our way.

Chris Jeffery:

Yeah. “Something came up and I’m not going to be home.”, and then we’ll work to reschedule that for a more convenient time.

Tim Pickett:

I just think this is awesome, especially in Utah where there’s going to be a lot of people… There’s a core group of cannabis consumers that are going to use cannabis, regardless of the law. There’s going to be a core group of patients that have been using medical cannabis and now are legally accessing it. But there is, beyond that, especially in conservative states, there’s going to be a group of people who don’t feel comfortable coming into the store, per se, and a group of people who can’t physically get here, right?

Chris Jeffery:

That’s right.

Tim Pickett:

We do home visits. We don’t do a lot of them, but we do home visits. These are people who can’t get to a clinic. These are people who need home delivery. And I think that expanding that to people who aren’t quite comfortable… Your cars are unmarked, right? It’s just a car just…

Chris Jeffery:

Yeah.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, this car just shows up, and a normal looking individual comes to the door, and this is a professional thing. I think that that opens up cannabis as a legitimate medicine even more, right, which is really… All three of us talk about this all the time when we meet. We’re trying to legitimize cannabis as medicine, and get people to just think about it as another tool in the toolbox of whatever’s in the medicine cabinet.

Chris Jeffery:

And the experience, to your point, is close to kind of a FedEx driver dropping off a box. There’s a couple other steps in that kind of drop off, that we need to check the ID, we need to collect payment, but it’s not… Product’s just in someone’s hand, they’re handing it off, and you can clearly see what it is. It’s a discreet packaging, looks like just another box that you would get from a FedEx driver.

Tim Pickett:

That’s pretty cool.

Chris Jeffery:

Except we don’t have anything that says FedEx on the car either.

Tim Pickett:

Right. So, when we talked a year ago product availability was a massive issue. It was an issue, even though we didn’t have as many patients in the program as we do now. Now I think we’re up to roughly 35, probably between 35,000 and 40,000 legal cannabis users in Utah, and the product selection has gotten better, product availability seems to have gotten better, but we’re still waiting, guys, we’re still waiting on flower from Wholesome.

Richard Maloney:

True.

Tim Pickett:

When? Come on. When?

Richard Maloney:

So you should start-

Tim Pickett:

We’re excited.

Richard Maloney:

… to see flower hit our shelves and other pharmacy shelves in November of this year. So we just finalized all of our packaging. It looks amazing. We’re working with a group out of Santa Rosa that’s called Tree Hugger. They’re a sustainable glass group, so all of our glass jars are already made from 50% recycled glass. All of our lids are made with recycled ocean plastic. So, we know we’re not 100% there, but WholesomeCo is making a commitment to doing what we can to be a sustainable company.

Richard Maloney:

The cannabis space, in general, has a lot of waste, and we are going to try to do our part to mitigate that waste. So, all of our designs look amazing. We work with a group out of Kansas City called Carpenter Collective. We will be offering 14 gram and 28 gram units as well, so we’ll have four strains that are coming out of our greenhouse, and that’s up north in Garland, Utah. So I’m really excited.

Richard Maloney:

I’ve been patiently waiting for seeing us at mass production, which is… we’re about to turn that corner. So there’s a new chapter of WholesomeCo’s history. And I think patients should start to get really excited about our harvest two and harvest three, because we’re stockpiling some pretty awesome genetics, grandiflorum being one of them, which is a Oakland based genetic group. We have some strains from them that none of the other producers out here in Utah have.

Richard Maloney:

So, that’s the type of stuff that gets me really excited every morning, is I know that while it may not be here today, I know what’s coming in the future, and I think a lot of patients are going to be happy with the quality of product they see from us.

Chris Jeffery:

And I think the other thing to keep in mind is that when we started this business we wanted to really define how we grew products, and what products we actually grew, and how we grew them based on what the patient was telling us.

Chris Jeffery:

And so starting with the retail business and understanding that data and what they want, what they don’t want, how they’re buying, what’s the cadence of their purchases, that always used to define our first big phase of cultivation expansion, which we’re getting… next week we should harvest. And so that’s the crop that Richard is talking about that’s going to hit the shelves in November.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. I think, I mean, from my perspective, originally, everybody was just on all of the growers, why are you not growing, why are you not growing, and Wholesome took a little bit of a unique approach compared to a couple of the others, right, focus a little more on the service experience, getting this delivery out. And, to your credit, in my opinion, you’ve done a really good job.

Tim Pickett:

I think the market has, or the growers have grown enough product. It seems like there’s enough product in the market now for the number of patients. And you have filled a gap in the market by the delivery in the retail side. So, in the beginning, while I’m sure there were people on you to get your products out to market, on the other hand, had you done that and emphasized that you may not have been able to access that patient in Saint George or Bloomington early enough. So-

Chris Jeffery:

That’s right.

Tim Pickett:

… you can’t do it all. Right? But, that being said, we’re all pretty excited, because you’re one of the last, right? There’s a little bit of anticipation. You’re so good at this. I think the bar has been set pretty high for the level of quality you got to come up with now on the product side. Do you not agree?

Chris Jeffery:

100%.

Richard Maloney:

I 100% agree.

Chris Jeffery:

You got to be good at each step of the supply chain if you’re actually going to build out the entire supply chain. But, from our point of view, it starts with understanding patients. And I think that building cultivation in a silo based on what you may like or what works for you as a patient is not necessarily what works for the market. And so I think we’ve done the kind of… built it the opposite way.

Chris Jeffery:

And we have some great partners that have helped us get to this point, but, to your point around investing in certain areas and deciding where you’re going to invest first, second, and third, again, understanding patients was number one, which was wrapped up in delivery and making sure that we could access more patients.

Chris Jeffery:

And so that few million dollar investment in building out delivery, which we’re continuing to invest in today, that has allowed us to offer delivery to people all over the state, which, to your point, if we chose to invest really heavily in cultivation and/or processing, manufacturing, we probably wouldn’t be scale niche or statewide with delivery.

Tim Pickett:

What have been some surprises you’ve seen or things in the program over the past year that have just been interesting or not, or things you want changed?

Richard Maloney:

That’s a good question. I think having had so much experience in other markets, I think that certain advertising regulations could potentially be looked at. I’m not complaining at where it is today. I understand it’s medicine. But I do think that that’s an area that should potentially be looked at. Because I do think, at the end of the day, patients, if they’re looking to medicate with cannabis, there’s probably a lot of people out here in the streets of Salt Lake and bountiful that might want to try it but they just don’t have a clue there’s a program that exists, because they can’t find any information.

Richard Maloney:

Or they may stumble across your feel better bill boards, but there’s not too many outlets for them online or in other places to learn that there is this program that exists, and there are doctors like you that are willing to sit with them and talk about their condition that they might have. So I think that’s one area that could potentially get some loosening down the road.

Tim Pickett:

For listeners, dispensaries, medical cannabis pharmacies in Utah are not allowed to advertise. So you won’t see a billboard that says WholesomeCo medical cannabis pharmacy. You won’t see a Dragonfly medical cannabis pharmacy billboard. That’s not going to happen. Right? You don’t see a commercial. You don’t see print advertising.

Tim Pickett:

When you see Jilu, when you see that, that’s a CBD advertising. And third parties, you might see a Wholesome delivery.

Chris Jeffery:

Wholesome Direct.

Tim Pickett:

Wholesome Direct. That’s a third party, “third party”. I am a third party, utahmarijuana.org. That’s a third party. So you can see my billboards. So there’s ways to navigate that scenario, but it’s regulated and…

Chris Jeffery:

It’s not as clear, I mean, from a communications perspective. Us as a pharmacy, communicating with patients or prospective patients can be much more clear in terms of how we communicate and what we communicate if we were allowed to do it. Otherwise, you’ll see billboards for WholesomeCo which are focused on our delivery service, but you’re not going to see us talk about product offering. It’s really just promoting a delivery service, which is a third party. So it’s not a direct communication channel or way of communicating that’s very clear to the patient.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. There isn’t that clarity of communication. That’s a good way to put it. So, what about qualifying conditions? Do you find that patients are coming in… I mean, this is interesting to me too. Do find that patients are coming in, their qualifying condition is pain, and yet they’re using it for secondary conditions? And do you get a lot of that, do you feel like, on the retail side?

Richard Maloney:

I feel like we see a little bit of it. You’ll potentially have people that come in with pain as a qualifying condition but they have diabetes or they have neuropathy pain or-

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, different-

Richard Maloney:

… there’s some type-

Tim Pickett:

… types of thing.

Richard Maloney:

… of pain rooting from somewhere, but…

Chris Jeffery:

Or it’s pain and they can’t sleep because of the pain.

Richard Maloney:

True.

Chris Jeffery:

And so it’s kind of this-

Richard Maloney:

We see a lot of that.

Chris Jeffery:

… yeah, I have pain in my shoulder, and I’m up all night because it’s painful to sleep. And so they’re actually using medical cannabis for the pain but it’s actually helping them sleep.

Tim Pickett:

So is it like a secondary diagnosis that’s not really… we’re not tracking that. There’s a lot of talk on our side. In fact, I talked to your pharmacist in charge, Kylie, and we’re trying to figure out, how do we navigate this, how do you develop products when pain is the qualifying condition but they’re using it for sleep? Do you develop a sleep product, and how do you know how much sleep product to develop? Because pain is the qualifying condition.

Tim Pickett:

You’re not really getting a true sense of what patients are using cannabis for. And this is probably something that’s for our later discussion, because the program is still small compared to, I don’t know, where do you see it going? Right? 35,000 now, I mean, what’s the projection? You guys even know?

Richard Maloney:

I feel like-

Tim Pickett:

What do you think?

Richard Maloney:

… if sleep was added as a condition this would be a whole different ballgame out here, because I talk to patients down there daily that are getting off Ambien and they can’t sleep at night for some PTSD type related condition, or they’re a veteran that’s back here from Afghanistan and…

Tim Pickett:

But they may not have PTSD as a qualifying, right? “They don’t have.”

Richard Maloney:

Right. So I’m trying to say they’ve come in for pain but they actually have PTSD or CPTSD, and they’re trying to figure out how to just get access to the medicine. So, potentially, and I hate to say this, but when they’re talking to their doctor they may actually feel more comfortable saying, “I just got back pain.”, because they’re going to walk out of there with a card, or do they really get into the nitty gritty of the true pain that they’re dealing with?

Tim Pickett:

Right. The trauma that they’re dealing with and what they really want to feel better, like using this to feel something different or to relieve symptom.

Richard Maloney:

Right. Because like depression, that’s not a qualifying-

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, not a-

Richard Maloney:

… condition.

Tim Pickett:

… qualifying condition.

Richard Maloney:

But is depression pain?

Tim Pickett:

Do you guys… are you capable of seeing a lot more patients? Is this something that, okay, we’ve maxed it out, or we’ve got a lot more room to grow?

Chris Jeffery:

Yeah, I mean, I think in a growing market, in growing business, you have to redefine yourself along the way, the same business in SOPs in how you’re set up to handle 100 patients is not the same to handle 1000 patients in a day or a week. And so you’re constantly looking at what you’re doing and how to improve upon that. Obviously, you mentioned the one year anniversary. We had lines everywhere.

Tim Pickett:

The line out the, I mean-

Chris Jeffery:

The drive through.

Tim Pickett:

The drive through was up to almost the light at some points. I mean, how do people get into Costco?

Chris Jeffery:

So, it’s funny you mention that, because when we opened the store, that was one of our concerns, is that are we going to have a line out of our parking lot into the Costco parking lot? Because that’s not going to be a good thing. Costco’s not going to appreciate that.

Tim Pickett:

That would not have been good. Wait, do you have the line circle around in front of Deseret Book?

Chris Jeffery:

Yeah, maybe.

Tim Pickett:

That’s an interesting-

Richard Maloney:

Yeah, by Office Depot-

Tim Pickett:

… spot, right?

Richard Maloney:

… into Petco.

Tim Pickett:

Oh, it’s Office Depot now. It used to be Deseret Book.

Richard Maloney:

No, there’s Deseret book there.

Chris Jeffery:

Yeah, they’re still there.

Tim Pickett:

It’s right here, right?

Chris Jeffery:

Yeah. But, yeah, that would be ironic.

Richard Maloney:

It was definitely backed up to Deseret on the anniversary.

Chris Jeffery:

But that system “broke” delivery. We had to turn off delivery. So, it’s good to see your breaking points. I constantly try to challenge the team, like where’s our breaking point, whether it’s sourcing inventory and buying too much inventory, or whether it’s getting too many deliveries in, or having a line out of your drive through that’s too long. But at least you know, okay, well, we’ve hit that breaking point, now we have to reconfigure what we’re doing to be able to handle that level of volume. So we’re doing that literally once a quarter.

Richard Maloney:

Yeah. We’ve fully outgrown the original vault spaces we’ve had. So we’ve got some things in the works that we’re working on remodeling, so, a much larger space to house all of the products that we provide patients. So, I’m very excited about that.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. That’s your wheelhouse, right?

Richard Maloney:

Yeah. So it keeps everything clean-

Chris Jeffery:

I think it’s right through your back wall.

Richard Maloney:

… and organized. So, we’ve been patiently waiting for that to happen, because…

Tim Pickett:

I know I wanted more space and you were like yes. I remember originally you’re like, “Yes, Tim. You can have all that space all the way to the backside of the building.”

Chris Jeffery:

A month later.

Tim Pickett:

And then as a month later, you’re like, “Oh, yeah, Tim, you can’t have any more space. We need it all.”, which is good.

Richard Maloney:

Yeah. So I’m impressed with the growth that we’re seeing. And I think that we just want to continue to build the momentum. And I think Chris is really good at keeping the team here motivated at all levels of like, let’s keep going with the momentum. We’re doubling down on the things we’re doing right, and so I think that that mentality from our top leader does start to trickle into everybody else. And so you got people down here that are just pharmacy agents, but they’re invested. They’re our biggest shareholder.

Richard Maloney:

So we’re trying to just foster a mentality where everybody is willing to roll up their sleeves and do the work and nobody is greater than any job down there, whether it’s a delivery job or you’re the pharmacy agent, you’re the security guard at the front. We’re all trying to just get everybody speaking the same language and on this same mission of serving patients.

Tim Pickett:

That’s pretty cool. Is there anything else that you want to bring up, talk about?

Chris Jeffery:

Yes. So, one area that we’re investing heavily in, outside of all the other areas, is we’re building out better technology for connecting the front of our experience, which is the registration, building profile for yourself with the e-commerce layer.

Chris Jeffery:

Part of that is, Apple just announced about a month ago that they are going to allow native apps in their app store, which up until a month ago, and I remember when I was at Leafly with Richard, we fought Apple every month trying to get our app in there. They just announced month ago that licensed operators can actually surface a native app, and so we’re under development for that right now.

Chris Jeffery:

So, that will launch most likely early 2022. So, I know it’s four or five months away, but we’re really excited about that. So people can download an app, they can register, they can talk to pharmacists, they can order delivery, they can order pickup, all within one native app experience.

Tim Pickett:

Oh, that is going to be, I mean, it really is going to be a game changer for that type of thing. We’ve looked into the same thing because patients want access to, when does my card expire, I want to make sure that I’m up to date on what’s happening.

Richard Maloney:

You have a great system, by the way. I got my text message a month before it was going to expire, I got my email. Smooth communications.

Tim Pickett:

Thanks.

Richard Maloney:

Wholesome communications.

Tim Pickett:

Wholesome communications. It takes a lot of, like you guys now, I mean, like we were talking earlier with your delivery, I mean, it takes an army of people to really just navigate these little… it’s little pieces of the EVS system, it’s the little pieces of MJ. 80% of the program works fine, it works smooth, but there’s these little things that are… like you’ve got to scroll down and save-

Chris Jeffery:

The last 10% is always the har…

Tim Pickett:

… and submit people, save and submit, scroll down to the bottom of the EVS, gosh, dammit, save and submit.

Tim Pickett:

It’s about the patient, right? We all have the same goal in mind. We just want patients to be happy. We want them to feel better. We want them to use less prescription medications. We want to legitimize what we’re doing. And it is. It’s legit. Like I said in North Carolina, 49,000 people died in 2019 of opioids related deaths and zero people died of cannabis related deaths. And if we say nothing else today, that’s it.

Chris Jeffery:

Yeah. That’s right.

Tim Pickett:

This has been awesome, guys.

Richard Maloney:

Thank you.

Chris Jeffery:

We appreciate it, Tim.

Tim Pickett:

Thanks for coming back.

Chris Jeffery:

Yeah, thank you.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, This has been fun. WholesomeCo dot…

Chris Jeffery:

Wholesome.co.

Richard Maloney:

Wholesome.co.

Tim Pickett:

Wholesome.co. Go online, register as a patient, if you’re not registered already. Try it out. Try their delivery-

Richard Maloney:

Free delivery.

Tim Pickett:

… system. Free delivery now. Load some stuff up in your cart, debit card, and, I mean, same day delivery here in the local area. You’re getting to pretty much everywhere you deliver to at least once-

Chris Jeffery:

At least once a week.

Tim Pickett:

… a week.

Chris Jeffery:

And for most of those… like Saint George we have two days a week that we’re offering delivery, so you can schedule that in advance so you come on on a Monday. If we’re delivering there on Friday you can just select your timeframe. And so, it’s a little bit different than truly on demand or same day, but there’s availability every single week for 99% of patients in Utah.

Tim Pickett:

You just need to set your Amazon day and your WholesomeCo delivery day for the same day during the week.

Chris Jeffery:

Exactly.

Tim Pickett:

You’re going to be home to sign for it, and you’ll be all set. Thanks, guys.

Richard Maloney:

Thank you.

Tim Pickett:

All right everybody. Utahmarijuana.org/podcast. You can download the podcast there. You can see summaries of the podcast. Thanks for listening. This is Tim Pickett. Stay safe out there.

 

What to Expect in This Episode

Episode 69 of Utah in the Weeds features Chase Hudson, the founder and president of Hemplucid, a local company that specializes in CBD extracts. Chase told Chris and Tim about his background in firefighting and the emergency medical call that inspired him to find a new way to help medical patients. [02:17]

Chase and a few others founded Hemplucid about six years ago, and he says the business has exploded in the time since. [06:23]

Chase talked about some of the challenges Hemplucid and other cannabis companies are facing, including banking issues and the legality of Delta-8 tetrahydrocannabinol in some states. [08:11]

He told us about the genetics of the cannabis plants Hemplucid uses, and the ways large pharmaceutical companies are getting ready to join the medical cannabis industry. [14:33]

Chase talked about his personal relationship with cannabis, the ways he’s witnessed cannabis helping people, and a new line of Hemplucid products due out by the end of the year. [23:50]

Chase also told us about his experiences with shamanism, Ayahuasca, and ketamine. [33:55]

We wrapped up this podcast with a quick discussion about Hemplucid’s products, the ways CBD treatments can augment other cannabis-based medicine, and the ever-changing landscape of the Medical Cannabis industry. [45:18]

Resources in This Episode

• Visit Hemplucid’s website: hemplucid.com
• Follow the podcast at UtahMarijuana.org.
• Subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Discover Marijuana.
• Follow our Instagram page, utah_marijuana_org.

Podcast Transcript

Chris Holifield:

All right. Let’s welcome everybody out to episode 69 of Utah in the Weeds. I’m Chris Holifield.

 

Tim Pickett:

69, Chris. Tim Pickett with utahmarijuana.org, and I’m excited. This was a fascinating interview. I remember sitting here talking to Chase. Chase Hudson is the person we’re talking to today, and just the level of insight into your own personal experience with cannabis and other medications that are like this that are strong, man, I think people are really going to get a kick out of this one. Plus, they’re going to learn something. This is an introspective episode.

 

Chris Holifield:

Yeah, learn about Hemplucid, learn about his journey of getting to creating this business. It’s a fascinating story of how he got here.

 

Tim Pickett:

He’s been involved all the way through when CBD oil was really expensive and everybody was making money until the market crashed and CBD and then how to recover from that. Plus Delta-8, Delta-9, we talk about. His experience is broad and he’s been in this thing a long time.

 

Chris Holifield:

It’s a good story, though. You’ll learn a lot about the plant in this conversation.

 

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, absolutely.

 

Chris Holifield:

utahmarijuana.org/podcast. That’s where you can go listen to all the podcast episodes. They’re up online. You can listen to them right there. Share them with your family and friends.

 

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, and subscribe in any podcast app that you use. Be sure to subscribe to our newsletter at utahmarijuana.org at the bottom, and then you’ll stay up-to-date on everything that’s happening in the Utah cannabis space, medical marijuana space. Stay up-to-date with all the podcast episodes.

 

Chris Holifield:

Sounds good.

 

Tim Pickett:

There you go.

 

Chris Holifield:

Let’s get into that conversation with Chase Hudson, the CEO of Hemplucid. This is a good one, you guys. Enjoy. Now you’re the CEO of Hemplucid, or what is your title with Hemplucid?

 

Chase Hudson:

Yep, CEO and founder.

 

Chris Holifield:

CEO and founder. Okay. You’re the-

 

Tim Pickett:

Nice.

 

Chris Holifield:

You’re the-

 

Tim Pickett:

You’re the man.

 

Chris Holifield:

You’re the big dog.

 

Tim Pickett:

How’d that start?

 

Chase Hudson:

Oh, man, started, well, let’s see. I don’t know how far back I want to go. I’ll just start with the initial, but I started it with three of my other really good friends, Talyn, Nate and Saryn. I’d just got out of the fire industry, so that’s my background.

 

Chris Holifield:

Like a fireman?

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Chris Holifield:

Like a firefighter?

 

Chase Hudson:

Yep.

 

Chris Holifield:

Okay.

 

Chase Hudson:

I did that for about eight years. I graduated with my bachelor’s in emergency management, fire science, so did that for eight years and then, well really, I had a call that just fractured my mind as far as, “I have a bigger purpose.” The amount of suffering that was going on in the world and what I was seeing was, it’s just like, “No.” I realized I was a spoke in the wheel and I wasn’t actually-

 

Chris Holifield:

This was like a fire call-

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Chris Holifield:

… like an emergency medicine call?

 

Chase Hudson:

Yep. Yeah. Well, she was a cancer patient. I remember when I picked her up, it was just like a general assist, but I picked her up and she weighed probably 80 pounds and she was just all skin and bone. I put her on the stretcher and then I went back into the room and got all of her meds. Her daughter handed me two Walmart bags full of prescription pills. She was taking about 50 pills a day, and I was like, “Okay, something is so wrong with our system that we have this lady who weighs 80 pounds taking 50 pharmaceuticals a day and she’s just wasting away in her home.” That was the moment that I’m like, “Okay, I have a bigger purpose.”

 

Chase Hudson:

I’ve always liked helping people. Just ever since I can remember, just community-based person. So after that call, I was in New Mexico at the time. I came back to Utah and did a couple more years at Wildland Fire and Nate, one of our other founders, we started selling CBD oil for CV Sciences and some of the other big players. We were selling on eBay, Amazon. We were trying to get up on Etsy and we did that for a few months, and then all of a sudden, overnight, the government put out the word and killed all third-party CBD selling online. So at that point, we were getting good traction. People were buying quite a bit of product from us, but it was very early in the industry where the quality of the product wasn’t very good. It was very waxy, very sticky.

 

Tim Pickett:

Because you feel like the quality of the product, in general, has gotten better?

 

Chase Hudson:

Way better.

 

Tim Pickett:

Is that because you can find better product, like you can find the certificate of analysis on products now, because I asked that question because I wonder if, I still think you can find crappy products-

 

Chase Hudson:

Definitely-

 

Tim Pickett:

… out there, right?

 

Chase Hudson:

Definitely.

 

Tim Pickett:

But it’s definitely easier, your point is it’s easier to find good products now.

 

Chase Hudson:

It’s easier, I would say, if you know what you’re looking for. In the beginning, the oil is very waxy. So your body can’t break down wax, so you’re just passing through CBD waxy material. So when that crack down happens, the guy that I was actually selling for, he called me and he’s like, “Hey, they’re just dude in Utah selling CBD. Go see what that’s about.” So I went over to this guy and his company and they were selling CBD and long story short, but I ended up working with him for about a year, just understanding the CBD industry and educating myself, traveling a lot. Then, it started to pick up.

 

 

Chase Hudson:

We nailed some local accounts, so I picked up Good Earths and Shirlyn’s and we started to gain some traction. Then, I separated from this guy and his company and I went and started Hemplucid with me, Nate, Talyn and Saryn. So it was a really cool progression how it worked. I brought Saryn on first. She was doing our customer service, and then I brought Talyn on and she was doing our accounting and wholesale and distribution. Then, we brought Nate on to do shipping and fulfillment. Then, we all found a small little office in Orem about this size, and we all worked out of there for about a year. Then, things just exploded, and we’re going on our sixth year of business now.

 

Tim Pickett:

No, that’s awesome. Where are you located?

 

Chase Hudson:

Right now, we’re down in the Riverwoods-

 

Tim Pickett:

In the Riverwoods?

 

Chase Hudson:

In Provo, right-

 

Tim Pickett:

Right there.

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

 

Tim Pickett:

Right in Utah County. Right in your back door, people.

 

Chase Hudson:

Yeah, it’s been-

 

Chris Holifield:

Who would guess that in Utah County, of all places, too?

 

Chase Hudson:

It’s still surprising to people.

 

Chris Holifield:

Yeah.

 

Chase Hudson:

Yeah.

 

Chris Holifield:

It’s like, “Wait, you’re in Provo?” It’s like, “Hell, yeah. We’re in Provo.”

 

Tim Pickett:

So Hemplucid sells primarily, well, you sell all over the country?

 

Chase Hudson:

All over the country. We used to do a lot of international, but the international market started to clamp down on the CBD industry. So we have a couple international accounts still, but it’s a small portion of our business, but it’s all mostly domestic, all 50 states. We have products in all 50 states.

 

Chris Holifield:

Do you run into more or less challenges being in Utah, in general? Does that matter which state you’re in when you’re running a hemp company in Utah, or not in Utah, in the United States, in general, Utah, you would think you’d run into more challenges.

 

Chase Hudson:

So that’s what we thought-

 

Chris Holifield:

Okay.

 

Chase Hudson:

… but it’s actually been fairly easy. The biggest issues we have faced is, not so much anymore, but in the beginning was banking and merchant accounts. So banks would just call you and be like, “Oh, we’re closing your account in a week.” I was like, “Oh, okay. Thanks.” Just no reason, merchant accounts, “Oh, we just shut off your revenue, basically, your revenue stream on your website. You got to go find another merchant account.” So that, in the beginning, was just an absolute nightmare, but it’s actually been very well received in Utah. It was actually surprising, still is surprising-

 

Chris Holifield:

On a government level or on just a public level?

 

Chase Hudson:

Public consumer level-

 

Chris Holifield:

Okay.

 

Chase Hudson:

… But then also, the hemp program in Utah is fairly new, just a couple of years. I think they’ve set it up pretty good. It feels like over this last year with the medical marijuana program getting going here that there appears to be some fighting between the medical marijuana industry and the hemp industry. There’s just some political weirdness on the backend where trying to stop certain laws. This Delta-8 thing is a good example of the medical marijuana industry lobbying against the hemp industry, so-

 

Tim Pickett:

Right.

 

Chris Holifield:

You mean, medical marijuana… they’re lobbying against the hemp industry?

 

Tim Pickett:

I would say, yes, I would agree with that too.

 

Chris Holifield:
Really?

 

Tim Pickett:

We talked a little bit about this before we started recording, but you’ve got some Delta-8 products, Hemplucid has some Delta-8 products. These are products that under the, I think it’s the Farm Bill Act or something like that. It specifies Delta-9 tetrahydrocannabinol may not be distributed without the medical.

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

So it specifies that it’s Delta-9.

 

Chase Hudson:

Correct.

 

Tim Pickett:

So under national rules, Delta-8’s totally allowed.

 

Chase Hudson:

Correct.

 

Tim Pickett:

In the medical market, especially here in Utah. Well, not especially, but in New York they banned Delta-8.

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

So what does the hemp side of the world think of that? What does the CBD side … ?

 

Chase Hudson:

It’s actually really unfortunate because businesses are being destroyed by it, the banning of Delta-8. So it’s pretty upsetting and it’s very unfortunate, but we had COVID. That pretty much shut down and killed a lot of businesses. Then, we’re coming out of COVID, people really got on the Delta-8 train. CBD sales, the market has become very saturated. CBD sales have slowed down, so a lot of these stores, they transitioned, some 90% of their inventory over to Delta-8. So Delta-8 was carrying and saving a ton of businesses across the country. As these states have been pressured by, in my opinion, lobbyists from the medical marijuana side, as states have been pressured and laws have been passed and they’re taking Delta-8 out of the general public, preventing these stores from selling it, we talk to companies every day that they don’t think they’re going to keep their doors open for much longer, because they’re in states that the government has decided to ban Delta-8 products.

 

Tim Pickett:

New York is one that I mentioned. What are the others?

 

Chase Hudson:

Oh man, New York, Nevada, Colorado-

 

Chris Holifield:

Wait, Nevada? I thought Nevada was full rec there, so why would they ban Delta-8?

 

Chase Hudson:

Because Delta-8 is taking away sales from the medical cannabis-

 

Chris Holifield:

The dispensaries-

 

Chase Hudson:

… stores, so that’s what’s happening.

 

Tim Pickett:

Okay-

 

Chase Hudson:

So-

 

Tim Pickett:

So basically they’re saying, and the argument here in Utah that I’ve heard, is that Delta-8, because it is a psychoactive compound in the THC world, there’s 8, 9, 10, 11, 12-

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

You’re going to take THC, anything with any THC in it, and we’re going to put that only in the dispensaries and in here, the medical cannabis pharmacies.

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

That’s the argument, that we need to regulate it as if it is just like Delta-9.

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

You were talking about hemp shops, CBD shops, right? Of course, they would go towards Delta-8. This is a product you can feel.

 

Chase Hudson:

Delta-8 is an awesome product, and some of the feedback we’ve been getting is people actually like it more than Delta-9.

 

Tim Pickett:

Why do people say that?

 

Chase Hudson:

Because it’s not as heady. You’re not higher up in the clouds, you can say.

 

Tim Pickett:

Yep. Yep.

 

Chase Hudson:

The Delta-

 

Tim Pickett:

Because it’s not a CB1 receptor molecule.

 

Chris Holifield:

That’s my favorite place to be, though.

 

Tim Pickett:

I know, right? Right? So to be honest, I’m kind of surprised that we’ve ended up back here on Delta-8.

 

Chris Holifield:

Yeah.

 

Tim Pickett:

It seems like we talk about it all the time.

 

Chris Holifield:

Why not? It’s a hot topic.

 

Chase Hudson:

It is.

 

Tim Pickett:

It is. Honestly, I’ve always been talking about it from the medical side and not from the hemp side.

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

So it’s nice to hear somebody else’s opinion about, “Well, geez. now you’re taking away my livelihood.”

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

Your argument is probably that it’s just as safe, but they’re making it, right? They’re making it out of CBD oil or hemp oil-

 

Chase Hudson:

Correct, it’s derived from hemp.

 

Tim Pickett:

It’s converted using a strong acid. So you guys make hemp, some Delta-8 products.

 

Chase Hudson:

Yes, so we’re a vertically-integrated company except the farm and the extraction. So we do all of our own manufacturing, shipping, fulfillment, but as far as ordering raw materials, whether that’s CBD, Delta-8, CBN, we have farming partners in Colorado and other states. But our main farming partner is in Colorado, and we’ve been with those guys since the very beginning, six years now, going on six years.

 

Tim Pickett:

So they’re driving it, putting it in a bottle or a bucket and delivering it to you?

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Chris Holifield:

Wait, so let’s stop there. How can you get out a state product, but our in-state places like Jilu to get-

 

Tim Pickett:

Product from in-state.

 

Chris Holifield:

… in-state. How do you get out-of-state product?

 

Tim Pickett:

That a difference between medical and THC content, everything that you buy is …

 

Chase Hudson:

Yep. So Utah, you have to register. It’s part of the registration process, so that allows the commerce of bulk raw materials.

 

Tim Pickett:

All of the stuff you bring in, though, under 0.3%-

 

Chase Hudson:

Correct.

 

Tim Pickett:

Delta-9 THC?

 

Chase Hudson:

Delta-9, yep.

 

Chris Holifield:

Now, why wouldn’t you get hemp from hemp farmers here in Utah?

 

Chase Hudson:

We’ve looked at it. One thing that we went after in the very beginning was the genetics, so the genetics of the hemp, and that’s really the foundation. One of the main foundational components of Hemplucid is genetics, single-sourced from clones. So the genetics we use are a hybrid between a medical marijuana genetic and a hemp genetic, and this family has been working on this family lineage of genetics for over 10 years.

 

Chris Holifield:

Okay.

 

Chase Hudson:

So it has a very robust terpene profile, cannabinoid profile, secondary cannabinoids minors. We feel like it’s one of the best CBD oils on the market because it is grown from a specific genetic family, single source. I’m not sourcing from multiple different farms. So the genetics matter and a lot of people are just growing the cherries and the CBGs. It’s good. It all has a place, but we went to another level of quality or understanding of the products that we’re putting out to the public.

 

Chris Holifield:

It was years ago that I actually discovered your products. I was living downtown, so at the time, so this was easily three or four years ago. I remember I tried tons of different CBD products. When I discovered yours, it was like, you could actually feel it working. I was like, “Wow, this stuff is top shelf, good quality stuff.” So whatever you’re doing, keep doing it because it’s good stuff. I think there’s a water soluble one there in front of…

 

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, this water soluble. It’s in a red box-

 

Chris Holifield:

That’s the first CBD one that I ever tried.

 

Tim Pickett:

1500 milligrams.

 

Chris Holifield:

Then, you have some vaping CBD ones too, that I got into a little bit later because I used to vape nicotine. I don’t do that, but I was like, “Well, maybe I could vape some CBD,” and that is top notch stuff, too.

 

Tim Pickett:

When you talk about medical marijuana, you’re talking about strains, right? People are really-

 

Chris Holifield:

Right.

 

Tim Pickett:

… into strains. They’re into genetics. It’s all about craft, grade flower that you’re making, well, that you’re smoking or that you’re inhaling.

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

When it comes to the even medical marijuana products, they’re made into tinctures and things like that. Then the grade of flower is going to be typically lower. But if we were using that good genetics, it makes sense, right? If you’re using good genetics and you’re making your oil out of it-

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

… then your oil is going to be better.

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

So are your products more expensive, necessarily, than the average because of that?

 

Chase Hudson:

We’ll probably right in the middle, actually, because there’s been a lot of price fluctuation in the market over the last year-and-a-half. But we’re positioned as a top-tier brand with competitive pricing. It’s been interesting over the last year to watch the supplement industry try to get involved with CBD.

 

Tim Pickett:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Chase Hudson:

So the big supplement brands, that are selling vitamin C and-

 

Chris Holifield:

What? They’re adding hemp to vitamin C now?

 

Chase Hudson:

No, but those companies…

 

Chris Holifield:

Oh, I was going to say…

 

Chase Hudson:

Those companies…

 

Tim Pickett:

But the supplement industry took off during COVID, right?

 

Chase Hudson:

Yes.

 

Tim Pickett:

They were coming-

 

Chris Holifield:

Because everybody wants to get healthy-

 

Tim Pickett:

… off the shelf.

 

Chase Hudson:

Tremendous. Yeah. It was all about immune last year, support the immune system, but these companies then started to spin off CBD gel caps and tinctures. It’s funny to watch because a lot of these products are now being clearanced off shelves because again, it comes down to the effectiveness of the product. If you’re a big company and you see all these other smaller companies killing it in CBD, you want to get involved. You don’t understand the industry and it all just comes down to price. At the end of the day, these publicly-traded companies, they have shareholders, and it’s all about the bottom line. What we’ve seen in the CBD industry, when you’re motivated by the bottom line, you start to make quality mistakes, and you start sourcing the cheapest product you can find. The main focus isn’t about the quality and the effectiveness of the product; it’s the bottom line. So a lot of these companies have sourced very cheap, low-quality oils, and isolate and some of these products just don’t work for people.

 

Tim Pickett:

This makes me start thinking about when the rules change federally for the medical marijuana market, or the THC market too, because these bigger companies are to want to buy up. They have scale, right?

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

Scale in distribution, and imagine now you’ve got to buy product for a 50 state product line. You’re going to launch a product line in all 50 states. Hemplucid is not near big enough to do that, to that scale, right? Essentially, in their eyes, you’re a super small company.

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

But you’ve been able to source good product, and then every 50 states or 37 states that have medical marijuana programs, there’s 37 different growers. They’re all relatively small compared to what Pfizer would need to put a product on the shelf, right?

 

Chase Hudson:

Totally.

 

Tim Pickett:

So when things get better from a adult use THC standpoint, we’re going to find the same thing. There’s going to be a glut of products. Half of them aren’t going to work.

 

Chase Hudson:

Right.

 

Tim Pickett:

Right? They’re not going to be no good.

 

Chase Hudson:

Right.

 

Tim Pickett:

Then boom, the products like Hemplucid and the products that are local, semi-locally sourced or sourced from good genetics, these products will still remain and probably dominate.

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

Is that what you’re hoping with Hemplucid?

 

Chase Hudson:

Yep. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Pretty much.

 

Tim Pickett:

So did I just basically give away the end of the story?

 

Chase Hudson:

No. That’s what’s playing out. There’s definitely going to be a consolidation, I think, on both sides. If the feds come out and it’s a free rein, then I think you see big pharma coming in and just consolidating the whole industry and buy up certain growers and manufacturers in certain states. There’s probably a whole plan being orchestrated right now, I’m sure, knowing how government works.

 

Tim Pickett:

Sure.

 

Chase Hudson:

What’s the plan, Tim? It seems like you know. You got the heads up.

 

Tim Pickett:

I just feel like I know that Pfizer is looking at companies, right? I’ve heard rumor that they’re buying up excess CBG in the market to start developing products and testing. I know there’s big cannabis companies that are essentially just positioning themselves for acquisition-

 

Chase Hudson:

Oh, yeah.

 

Tim Pickett:

I don’t know how small that goes, right? That’s the thing, and I don’t have a broad view. My focus is really here in Utah with the medical market, but you can see companies here that would be pretty good in a few years. They’re going to be pretty good to buy, right?

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

They’re going to have a nice little market share, a nice little access to the consumer and it would be a perfect acquisition for a major company to come and be like, “Oh, well, that’s just perfect. We can add our products to that line.” So I want to switch gears and ask you about your personal relationship to cannabis.

 

Chase Hudson:

Cool.

 

Tim Pickett:

Right? How did that all start?

 

Chase Hudson:

That all started, so through high school, I had friends who were into cannabis. I was never really into it up until really, I moved to Utah for school. So I moved to Utah-

 

Chris Holifield:

From where? Where did you move from?

 

Chase Hudson:

Colorado.

 

Chris Holifield:

Okay.

 

Chase Hudson:

So born and raised in Colorado, came out to Utah for school because Utah Valley had one of the top fire programs in the country. So I was part of a junior firefighter program in Colorado Springs and they were like, “Hey, we want to hire you, but go get your degree because if you ever want to promote, it’s easier just to have it done before you get hired.” So I came to Utah, moved in, did the student housing thing for a minute and then, met a group of guys who a majority of them now work for the company. That’s actually a cool story, but these guys, I moved in with them and they were all cannabis users. I started to get a little bit more involved with it, and I remember multiple times sitting on Nate’s futon, just sitting there thinking, “Why is it illegal to feel this way? This doesn’t make any sense to me.”

 

Chase Hudson:

Like, “Why is it illegal that I can’t feel this good? My mind is clear and my pains are gone.” So that was really my first awakening to plant medicine and cannabis, in general, and then started to really dive into the science side of it. Like, “Oh, the endocannabinoid system, what’s that? I was never taught that in school or my doctors don’t know about it. What is the system that’s in every mammal?” And started really getting into that, understanding the cannabinoid system and how it works. It started to occur to me like, “Okay, I’ve been lied to and manipulated because one of the most important parts of our just human vehicle, the cannabinoid system, I didn’t know nothing about, and none of my friends knew anything about it. So that was the start, and then started taking CBD, started noticing just unbelievable changes within my own body.

 

Chase Hudson:

I think one of the coolest things was my mind, how it started to really work on my mind, my thinking, the way I was processing things. I like to tell people, I think CBD is one of the most powerful psychedelics, but it’s not really in the psychedelic category. When you think psychedelics, you’re thinking DMT, LSD, mushrooms, research chemicals, but one thing that CBD does, and that I’ve noticed with not only myself, but with people is that it starts to unlock the mind and it starts to connect the mind to the body. In our society and our culture, people are so disconnected from their mind and their body. I loved it. I’ll still do it to this day, but I’ll go and do demos at stores or work events.

 

Chase Hudson:

It’s really cool to watch this mind-to-body connection that people have where let’s say, somebody in pain or an elderly person comes into the store and they’re like, “I got shoulder pain,” or, “I got some issue.” They take a sample and in five minutes, all of a sudden they start thinking and they’re like, “Oh, man. I just took this product and my pain’s gone. What is that about?” So all of a sudden, from their point of view, submerged in culture, doctors are the ultimate authority. All these people are on prescription pills, but they just tried some holistic product in a health food store and their pain is gone for the first time ever. So now it starts this process of thinking of, “Okay, what else is out there that can work?”

 

Chase Hudson:

So I’m a huge fan of cannabis. I love CBD. I think we’re at the very start of just a complete medical revolution and the way that we prescribe medications to people, over 100 different cannabinoids, they all have a different impact on our body. I think we’re seeing this with Delta-8. Delta-8 seems to be the first cannabinoid out of the gate that actually has gained a tremendous amount of traction. There’s CBG, there’s CBN, but Delta-8, it’s a cannabinoid that has a specific impact on people’s body. So I’m so excited for the future of cannabis and the way that we treat people with their medical problems.

 

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. I can totally see how Delta-8 has leapfrogged over CBG and CBN, which were really popular in the conversation, or they were up and coming, right?

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

There’s still room for all of that, but it’s starting a bigger conversation about, “Okay, what do we do next?”

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

Right? We know Delta-9, we’re going to deal with that. We know how we’re going to deal with that now with tight regulations. We know it’s not as bad as heroin. Like the federal government says, but we know there’s going to be states that are always going to be medical. There’s probably going to be states who go adult use and we’re getting to that point now where people seem to be on board with that eventuality, for the Delta-9 piece.

 

Chase Hudson:

Yep.

 

Tim Pickett:

The Delta-8 piece opens up everything else. What do we do if we find now we can make Delta-12 or-

 

Chase Hudson:

Right.

 

Tim Pickett:

… and they feel a certain way? What are we going to do with the regulation when we come out with a new product, or when we decide, “You know what? If you took 200 milligrams of CBN, you’re just asleep.”

 

Chase Hudson:

Right.

 

Tim Pickett:

What do we do when we figure that out?

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

So I think with Hemplucid, you almost have a better vantage point because in the medical market, we’re only focused on one thing.

 

Chase Hudson:

Right.

 

Tim Pickett:

Right? How high do you get? How not high do you get? How does Delta-9 affect your medical condition?

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

I don’t mean to make light of it. It’s very important. It’s what I do for a living. but I guess I’m just making a point.

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. It’s going to be exciting. I believe it’s the future, but individual cannabinoid ratios for specific ailments that people have. I think it’s going to become… Like Hemplucid, we’re cannabinoid company, but in the future, we’re probably going to be somewhat of a compounding pharmacy, in a way. Again, we’re going to need a lot more research and this industry needs research…

 

Tim Pickett:

Bad.

 

Chase Hudson:

Really bad.

 

Tim Pickett:

But we also need research on what if we combine it with normal stuff? What if we combine it with a normal daily vitamin?

 

Chase Hudson:

Right.

 

Tim Pickett:

Right?

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

What about the supplement industry that can benefit cannabinoid medicine instead of just focusing on one silo?

 

Chase Hudson:

Right. Yep. It’s funny because we’re doing that. So we brought on some master herbalists and they’re taking functional mushrooms and herbs and CBD and we’re making a whole new product line where they all three work together.

 

Tim Pickett:

Can you talk about that? Is it out?

 

Chase Hudson:

Not yet. We’re trying to have it out before Black Friday, but it’ll definitely be out before the end of the year.

 

Chris Holifield:

So it’s like a multivitamin, like a pill or something?

 

Chase Hudson:

Yep, capsules.

 

Tim Pickett:

Capsules that include other plants.

 

Chase Hudson:

Yes.

 

Tim Pickett:

Fungi.

 

Chase Hudson:

Right.

 

Chris Holifield:

Mushrooms are a hot item, too, man. People are getting…

 

Tim Pickett:

It’s coming. OK, that’s a whole nother… We got to have you back when you-

 

Chase Hudson:

For sure.

 

Tim Pickett:

… release that, because mushrooms are on the verge of really taking off.

 

Chase Hudson:

Yeah. I think they’re the next big thing in the supplement industry.

 

Chris Holifield:

Isn’t there a mushroom coffee or something like that, like Lion’s Mane-

 

Tim Pickett:

There is?

 

Chris Holifield:

… or something?

 

Chase Hudson:

Yep. Yep.

 

Chris Holifield:

I’ve never had it.

 

Chase Hudson:

It’s called MUD\WTR.

 

Chris Holifield:

Yeah, MUD\WTR.

 

Tim Pickett:

So you strain the water through the mushroom grindings?

 

Chase Hudson:

No. So they take-

 

Tim Pickett:

That sounds disgusting.

 

Chase Hudson:

They take just functional mushrooms and then some other herbals and then it’s like a protein powder, in a way.

 

Chris Holifield:

I think MUD\WTR is just the name of the brand, right?

 

Chase Hudson:

Yeah.

 

Chris Holifield:

Okay, okay, okay. See that sounds like more brutal.

 

Tim Pickett:

It does sounds like you’re about to make mud water.

 

Chris Holifield:

Yeah.

 

Chase Hudson:

It looks like mud. We have a couple of people at the office that drink it. It’s-

 

Chris Holifield:

Have you tried it?

 

Chase Hudson:

Yeah, it’s great.

 

Chris Holifield:

Okay. I was wondering-

 

Chase Hudson:

It’s a really good product.

 

Tim Pickett:

I love coffee. I’m addicted to coffee-

 

Chris Holifield:

Oh, I love coffee, too.

 

Tim Pickett:

I love coffee-

 

Chase Hudson:

For sure.

 

Tim Pickett:

Anything that fights my ability to drink coffee, I almost like-

 

Chris Holifield:

Don’t take away my coffee.

 

Tim Pickett:

I want to just, nope, nope. It won’t work. I can’t drink it.

 

Chase Hudson:

I’m there with you. I was on the Bulletproof Coffee-

 

Chris Holifield:

Oh, yeah.

 

Tim Pickett:

Oh, yeah.

 

Chase Hudson:

… for seven years straight, every day, religiously. In preparation for my Ayahuasca trip that I went down to Peru for, you can’t have coffee. It’s like a month before you go, you’re down to very limited chicken, rice, beans.

 

Tim Pickett:

They just clean you out.

 

Chase Hudson:

Complete. I haven’t had coffee since I’ve been back, which is weird to me because-

 

Chris Holifield:

No coffee or no caffeine, just pretty much-

 

Tim Pickett:

No, it’s not weird-

 

Chase Hudson:

Caffeine-

 

Tim Pickett:

Ayauascha, it’s all the way, right?

 

Chase Hudson:

Yes.

 

Tim Pickett:

It is all the way.

 

Chase Hudson:

It’s all the way.

 

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. I haven’t done it. I’m scared to death of it. Maybe before the end, I think it’d be interesting-

 

Chase Hudson:

If you need a place to go, let me know. I’m kind of in this Ayahuasca community.

 

Tim Pickett:

We’ve met a few people who’ve who’ve participated, gone to Costa Rica…

 

Chris Holifield:

I don’t know what this is. What is it? I’m unfamiliar? Share a little bit about it.

 

Chase Hudson:

Ayahuasca?

 

Chris Holifield:

Yeah.

 

Chase Hudson:

It’s a brew-

 

Chris Holifield:

Okay.

 

Chase Hudson:

So it’s a 5MeO inhibitor, and then DMT.

 

Chris Holifield:

Oh, okay. Okay.

 

Chase Hudson:

So-

 

Tim Pickett:

DMT has a 15 minute in and out, right?

 

Chase Hudson:

Correct.

 

Tim Pickett:

So Ayahuasca, this is a long trip.

 

Chase Hudson:

Yeah. You’re four or five hours in.

 

Tim Pickett:

This is completely illegal, by the way. We do not recommend you do this in any form or shape.

 

Chris Holifield:

Oh, so it’s like a psychedelic, like a peyote-type trip or something.

 

Chase Hudson:

Yeah, so it is illegal in the U.S., Costa Rica, Mexico, Peru, I’ve been to Peru twice. But it is a psychedelic brew that is-

 

Chris Holifield:

Revelations, stuff comes to you. You’re able to see.

 

Tim Pickett:

It’s been told to me, there is nowhere to hide, right? It’s all the good, all the bad, everything. It doesn’t matter what it is, you can’t-

 

Chase Hudson:

Yep. You can’t hide. It’s such an amazing, powerful medicine because it strips away trauma of your entire existence.

 

Chris Holifield:

Okay.

 

Chase Hudson:

Not only your existence, but then when you start really getting into it, then all of a sudden, you’re working with generational trauma and epigenetic trauma from your parents, from your grandparents because we’re all linked through DNA-

 

Chris Holifield:

Okay.

 

Chase Hudson:

That’s deeper down the road and I don’t want to get too deep, like woo-woo. But it’s very good for healing your traumas.

 

Chris Holifield:

It sounds like something I need to try, man.

 

Tim Pickett:

It’s an entirely new perspective, right?

 

Chase Hudson:

Entirely new.

 

Chris Holifield:

Is it like ketamine? There’s ketamine clinics, I know, here in Salt Lake, so that you go do these-

 

Chase Hudson:

Right.

 

Chris Holifield:

… trips, so to say.

 

Tim Pickett:

Similar neural pathways, but not as intense with ketamine.

 

Chase Hudson:

Yep, and Ayahuasca, you typically do it with the shaman and Shamanism is just incredible, unbelievable. When you look through the course of human history, each culture, each tribe has their medicine person and they have their shaman, because the shaman is the doctor. When you get down into Costa Rica and Peru, the shamans are the doctor. Anytime there’s an issue that somebody has, they go to the shaman and it’s such an intimate, personal experience, because you drink Ayahuasca together. Then the shaman sings Icaros to you, these healing songs, and these healing songs, frequency of vibration. It’s what this whole reality is made of; energy frequency, vibration, and the shamans get into this frequency where they’re singing to you and they’re breaking up trauma within your body that you’re able to then, get out of your body.

 

Chris Holifield:

Okay.

 

Chase Hudson:

So you purge and it’s one of the coolest experiences I think you can have as a human being is to sit in front of a shaman under Ayahuasca and have them pull trauma out of your body, and you can see it, and you can feel it-

 

Chris Holifield:

Really?

 

Chase Hudson:

… and you know what they’re pulling out.

 

Chris Holifield:

Is this multiple experiences that you need to have to really be effective or is this like a one-time thing, or what?

 

Chase Hudson:

So the center that I go to, they recommend nothing less than 10 days, so about a week-and-a-half. Then, they have months, or you can stay on there for a year and diet and just work on your traumas and it was very beneficial for me. In my last journey, I had some sexual abuse when I was a kid.

 

Chris Holifield:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Chase Hudson:

Didn’t know, but it showed me and just pinpointed, “This thing happened to you and then it sent your life path on not quite on the path, but kind of off the path,” and in regards to the way that like my relationships and the way I interact with women and how come I have such a hard time trusting women. So like all these things that I was like, “This is weird. “Why can’t I get this right?” It all pinpointed to like, boom, this moment.

 

Chris Holifield:

Really?

 

Chase Hudson:

So once you have that perspective and that clarity and the understanding, then you can start to re-navigate your ship and integrate that experience, and-

 

Chris Holifield:

So it’s helped you in life then. You definitely have noticed a difference since you’ve experienced this.

 

Chase Hudson:

Absolutely.

 

Chris Holifield:

Okay.

 

Chase Hudson:

It’s a complete mind-body-soul upgrade and it brings-

 

Chris Holifield:

Let’s go to Costa Rica, Tim.

 

Tim Pickett:

Costa Rica, Peru, a friend of mine went to Costa Rica for four days, and it is a lot of the same things that you’re saying, is just this ability to reset.

 

Chase Hudson:

Right.

 

Tim Pickett:

Take the Nintendo game out, blow on it a few times, hit the reset button-

 

Chase Hudson:

That’s totally it.

 

Tim Pickett:

… put it back in and boom. Now, there is some really great research here in the U.S. going on-

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

Not with Ayahuasca, but with psychedelics and psilocybin specifically, that’s fascinating. I can’t wait til they get a little more here because this is smokers, people with PTSD, really bad trauma, just being able to reset that connection and get a different perspective. It’s why ketamine clinics are really popular, too-

 

Chase Hudson:

Blowing up.

 

Tim Pickett:

Some people really, really like that. Ketamine, I don’t know enough about those treatments to really speak to it,

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

But yeah, this whole movement, and it seems like cannabis is just us walking over the threshold, right?

 

Chase Hudson:

Yes.

 

Tim Pickett:

Being willing as a society, as a U.S. culture-

 

Chase Hudson:

correct.

 

Tim Pickett:

… to like, “Okay, we’re going to walk through this door. We’re going to just take one step, but there’s a whole world on the other side.”

 

Chase Hudson:

Oh, my gosh. It’s-

 

Tim Pickett:

A plant medicine, right?

 

Chase Hudson:

Cannabis is like the gateway drug to this whole other paradigm and reality of psilocybin mushrooms, ketamine. It’s the healing path, so once you start the healing path, then it’s like, “Cool, cannabis, CBD and then it’s like Ayahuasca or ketamine.”

 

Tim Pickett:

There are some people right now who will listen to this, who will be like, “Yeah. You’ve basically told me this is about the nightmare scenario, that cannabis is not the gateway drug to these things, to heroin and meth; it’s the gateway to this whole different paradigm that some people-

 

Chase Hudson:

Awakening.

 

Tim Pickett:

… are going to fight tooth and nail.”

 

Chris Holifield:

Gateway to a new world.

 

Chase Hudson:

For sure.

 

Tim Pickett:

But it is giving people permission to think differently about medicine.

 

Chase Hudson:

Yes.

 

Tim Pickett:

That’s what cannabis does.

 

Chase Hudson:

Correct. Yep. The ketamine, I have a mental health protocol where I offer ketamine treatments to all of our employees once a quarter. I-

 

Chris Holifield:

Just as a perk?

 

Chase Hudson:

Yep.

 

Chris Holifield:

Man, I got to come work for you guys.

 

Chase Hudson:

Ketamine, man, I think that’s the next revolution in mental health because it bridges the gap between Western culture and the psychedelic world. It’s-

 

Tim Pickett:

Yes, because it’s a medication I can prescribe, right?

 

Chase Hudson:

Correct.

 

Tim Pickett:

I can prescribe it. I can administer it.

 

Chase Hudson:

Right.

 

Tim Pickett:

I can monitor it, right here on Sunday.

 

Chase Hudson:

Yep.

 

Tim Pickett:

Yep.

 

Chase Hudson:

Yep. You’re in and out, and I like ketamine. It’s a very valuable tool. I use it in a very specific way. We work with Dr. Reid at Cedar Psychiatry.

 

Chris Holifield:

I talked to a ketamine doctor on my other podcast out in Salt Lake once. I forgot his name. Is he in Salt Lake here, or where’s he at? Is he down in Provo?

 

Chase Hudson:

Yes. So their main office is in Springville.

 

Chris Holifield:

Okay.

 

Chase Hudson:

They just opened up another clinic here in Sandy-

 

Chris Holifield:

Yeah, I don’t think that was him that I talked to.

 

Chase Hudson:

Cedar Psychiatry, or they were purchased by Novamind, but great, Dr. Reid and what Novamind is doing, just great, fantastic work. Writing the ketamine protocols for MAPS, starting the psilocybin. I think he’s doing some psilocybin research here in the state of Utah. So Dr. Reid is, in my opinion, I think he’s one of the most cutting edge psychedelic doctor researchers in the whole country.

 

Chris Holifield:

Okay. I’ll have to look him up. Ketamine fascinates me. I haven’t tried it yet. I’d like to, I think.

 

Chase Hudson:

Yeah, it’s great. It’s such a cool experience. It works on the default mode network of the brain, so the default mode network. I think it’s called the lateral habenula where stress and anxiety and like clogs up the section of the brain. So when you have ketamine, it feels like it’s cutting the energetic ties of your trauma, your emotion, of anxiety, depression, PTSD. It just completely blows all that out and removes the emotional connection to those memories. So you can look at those memories and go, “Oh yeah, that wasn’t as bad,” because it removes the emotional connection to it. It also promotes neurogenesis sprain growth 48 hours after. As your body is metabolizing it, you’re actually growing new neural networks, new neural pathways. It’s great for addiction because you’re creating new networks and new pathways, so you can start just really, a different lifestyle.

 

Chris Holifield:

Very cool.

 

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, cool.

 

Chris Holifield:

So much to talk about.

 

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. My mind is full.

 

Chris Holifield:

Let’s talk about some Hemplucid products really quick here.

 

Tim Pickett:

I’ve got a few in mind-

 

Chris Holifield:

At least touch base-

 

Tim Pickett:

… for sure.

 

Chris Holifield:

Let listeners know about all the products you guys make in case they’re not familiar. The best, go to hemplucid, was it .com, for all of it.

 

Chase Hudson:

So we have multiple lines, so we have our full plants or broad spectrum or whole plant full spectrum lines. Then we have a broad spectrum line, which is no THC or THC-free. So the ones that you’re holding are full spectrum, whole plant products. We have the MCT oil. We have a hemp seed oil and then our flagship product is the water soluble, and then we also make gummies, topicals. We’re getting into some new products this year, so the company is actually going through a whole just revamp. We’re going to offer a bunch of new products at the beginning of next year.

 

Chris Holifield:

The gummy cubes, by the way, are great for if you have insomnia need a good night’s sleep. Chew on a couple of those before you go to bed, man, [crosstalk 00:46:24]

 

Tim Pickett:

It looks like they’re 25 milligrams per gummy, 750 milligrams in this bottle, which is a lot. I love CBD. They’re good for people, especially in combination with your THC products, right?

 

Chase Hudson:

Yes.

 

Tim Pickett:

Load up. Take a slug of CBD in the morning. Take a slug in the middle of the day and then use THC as needed.

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

Right, with your medical card. I explain it like it smooths out the rough edges of the THC.

 

Chase Hudson:

Yes. That’s a good way… Yeah, that’s a great way to put it.

 

Tim Pickett:

It just simplifies it, right?

 

Chase Hudson:

Uh-huh (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

You’re just going to smooth the rough edges out.

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

You’re not going to be as paranoid if you get a high THC dose. It’s going to calm that psychoactivity a little bit. For some people, it really calms it down a lot, and frankly, it makes THC work better, right? The whole plant, the plant was made to consume all its own. But a lot of people, especially in Utah, don’t want to inhale, right?

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

They don’t want to inhale the plant, so these type of products are really great. For people who, they just want to tiptoe through the door, these are perfect products to try.

 

Chase Hudson:

Right.

 

Tim Pickett:

Right? Try 25 milligrams of CBD. See how it works. See if it’s enough. For some people, it’s plenty.

 

Chase Hudson:

Plenty. Yeah. First time users with the gummies, we tell people, “Just start with half.”

 

Tim Pickett:

Yeah.

 

Chase Hudson:

“Just start with half and go from there.”

 

Chris Holifield:

I’m over here, “Yeah, pop a couple before you get…” I forget how I’m a heavier user.

 

Tim Pickett:

Your tolerance is already a little high from cannabinoids. And then the Delta-8 products, I’m glad we talked about that a little bit from your perspective, because it’s good to get everybody’s perspective. It is definitely not a cut-and-dry thing-

 

Chase Hudson:

Uh-uh (negative).

 

Tim Pickett:

… on what to do. What’s the right move? There’s an article Mindy Madeo wrote in the Salt Baked City Magazine. There’s been Blake Smith with Zion has talked about it a little bit on the podcast. We deal with it a lot. Frankly, I recommend Delta-8 to my patients who they’re concerned about getting too high, but they have a lot of physical pain and Delta-8 seems to be a good choice.

 

Chase Hudson:

Yes.

 

Tim Pickett:

Right?

 

Chase Hudson:

It’s feedback.

 

Tim Pickett:

GI issues, too. There’s a lot more receptors in the gut for the CB2 receptors and those peripheral receptors. So Delta-8 tends to absorb more peripherally and for people with GI issues, Delta-8 seems to work really, really well.

 

Chris Holifield:

Now do you have Delta-8 gummies or anything or is it just the vape pen that you guys have?

 

Chase Hudson:

We do three different kinds of gummies, so we have five total Delta-8 products.

 

Chris Holifield:

Okay. Okay.

 

Chase Hudson:

So two vapes and then three gummies, but we’re not selling the gummies online right now; it’s just to our wholesale and distribution channel.

 

Chris Holifield:

So can you get the gummies anywhere here in Utah or is it all just out of it? ==

 

Tim Pickett:

You would essentially say, no, right?. I mean, if you did, it would be through some weird channel that had to go out of state and back into state and it probably they’re shipping it to you when they probably shouldn’t.

 

Chase Hudson:

Yep, and we talked earlier about Delta-8 and how it’s hurting businesses. Some of our stores in Utah, it’s very unfortunate because I think they put in an emergency act to ban Delta-8, and one of the things they were talking about is it’s not going to hurt local business. I don’t know where some of these people are getting their information from, but the amount of Delta-8 that we have moved out-of-state is-

 

Tim Pickett:

Astronomical, I bet.

 

Chase Hudson:

… obnoxious.

 

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. Yeah. I’ll bet.

 

Chase Hudson:

There’s a demand, like you were saying. People-

 

Tim Pickett:

They’re super strong. I’ve taken 20 milligrams of Delta-8 and it’s no joke. I don’t have a very high tolerance to THC or cannabinoids in general, but it’s legit.

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). It’s a real product-

 

Tim Pickett:

You’re definitely going to feel it 100%.

 

Chase Hudson:

Delta-10 is coming out now. There’s a bunch of Delta-10 products starting to hit the market, and that’s a very interesting effect. It’s very euphoric and not as strong as Delta-9.

 

Tim Pickett:

Again, back to the Farm Bill where it says Delta-9, right? So Delta-10 is in that same category.

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. There’s a huge wave coming that I don’t see how legislation and I don’t see how they can keep up, because as we start to figure out these new cannabinoids and there’s not laws specifically for these individual cannabinoids, they’re going to hit the market and then lawmakers and the medical marijuana industry is going to try to scramble to try to corral. It is about to get so wild in both of our industries.

 

Tim Pickett:

Oh, yeah. Cannabinoids, it’s going to be wild. The fact that the feds can’t get their shit together and fix this, it’s just going to be compounded over the next year or two years, and it happens fast. This is so American, that we’ll going to dial into the law and we’re like-

 

Chase Hudson:

Totally.

 

Tim Pickett:

“Okay, Delta-9, so it doesn’t say Delta- 10, so the attorneys are good.”

 

Chase Hudson:

Right.

 

Tim Pickett:

Right? “My attorney says go,” and then every state has to deal with it separately.

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Tim Pickett:

It’s very, very.

 

Chris Holifield:

Do you run into that? That makes me think of a question. That would be frustrating to be in the industry like yours, Chase, where you probably come out with packaging. You spend all this money and then boom, be told, “You can’t do that.”

 

Chase Hudson:

Totally. Yep.

 

Chris Holifield:

Then, you just lost all that money.

 

Chase Hudson:

Yep. Nope. It’s happened to us-

 

Chris Holifield:

A bunch of times, it sounds like already.

 

Chase Hudson:

A bunch of times-

 

Chris Holifield:

Wow.

 

Chase Hudson:

It’s still happening today. It’s-

 

Chris Holifield:

How do you not get all depressed and say, “Screw it all, man?” I would just want to throw in the towel.

 

Chase Hudson:

Because I feel like the revolution is here. There’s a revolution happening and-

 

Chris Holifield:

I like that attitude, man.

 

Chase Hudson:

We’re in a war for people’s health and people’s consciousness and the other side isn’t just going to roll over and go away. So there’s people like me and other companies and you guys, all this stuff helps and it’s just a mission that I’m on, so I expect it. It’s definitely going to get worse, but..

 

Tim Pickett:

But it’s also going to get better.

 

Chase Hudson:

It’ll definitely get better. Yeah. I think some clarity will come. I think, like you were saying, it’ll finally hit a point where it’s like, “What are we doing? The Federal government, states, this is healing people and helping people, and you guys are trying to create laws to stop that or interfere with that, so we need a different way of doing things.”

 

Tim Pickett:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay, I’m back excited. Now I started out this conversation in a different mindset, but now I’m back to excited. Let’s go.

 

Chris Holifield:

Yeah, no. I think there’s probably so much we could talk about.

 

Tim Pickett:

I really am interested in this whole nother product line when you get it going, maybe November.

 

Chris Holifield:

Okay.

 

Tim Pickett:

Right? We need to talk about that because I’m excited about that. Functional mushrooms and joining cannabinoid products together, that’s exciting.

 

Chris Holifield:

You were mentioning your gummy cubes to take a half a cube for people that maybe had a low tolerance that are starting, would that be a good place to start? Let’s say a listener, somebody listening, they don’t know where to start. Where would be a good place for them to start with even a CBD product? Is there a beginner one? I don’t know.

 

Chase Hudson:

So a good place to start, the water soluble.

 

Chris Holifield:

Okay.

 

Chase Hudson:

It seems to be-

 

Chris Holifield:

No, that’s a good one.

 

Chase Hudson:

That is our flagship product. It’s very fast-acting, so you can either take it underneath the tongue or you can drop it in four to six ounces of water, just like a full dropper. In four to six ounces of water, it’ll dissolve, drink that. People typically feel the onset of that within five to 10 minutes. So that one is our fastest acting product. The oils take about 45 minutes to an hour because that absorption is happening in the intestines. The water soluble happens out of the stomach. So probably the water soluble product or the cubes, those are a really good entry product, but if you are new to CBD, it seems like the edibles hit a little bit harder than the tinctures do. So that’s why we recommend first-time users or people just getting into the CBD industry, just try half.

 

Chris Holifield:

Obviously, these are all on your website, I guess, Hemplucid-

 

Chase Hudson:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

 

Chris Holifield:

Shops in Utah, I guess some places have them?

 

Chase Hudson:

Yeah, pretty much every health food store in Utah.

 

Chris Holifield:

Whole Foods?

 

Chase Hudson:

Except Whole Foods-

 

Chris Holifield:

Except Whole Foods.

 

Chase Hudson:

I would say not the big chains.

 

Chris Holifield:

Okay.

 

Chase Hudson:

But the Shirlyn’s, the Good Earths there’s a couple other stores we have. I’m kind of out of the loop on…

 

Chris Holifield:

No, you’re good. I was just wondering if some of our listeners out in the Salt Lake area, obviously, and so if they want to go pick them up today, when you’re listening to this.

 

Chase Hudson:

For sure. A lot of smoke shops, a lot of vape shops, so just call your local vape shop, smoke shop and-

 

Chris Holifield:

You’re saying if you don’t have it, bring it in, right?

 

Chase Hudson:

Bring it in, yeah. Support the local business.

 

Tim Pickett:

Absolutely. Well, this has been great. Thanks for coming.

 

Chris Holifield:

Anything you want to add, Chase, before we wrap this episode up? Anything you want to make sure we do talk about?

 

Tim Pickett:

I think we covered quite a bit.

 

Chris Holifield:

Yeah.

 

Tim Pickett:

Thank you for your guys’ time, what you’re doing. I think this new form of media and podcasting, it’s definitely the future. It’s currently, but it’s stuff like this really matters because it’s real, it’s long form. You can really get into good discussion and it’s not just 30 second to one minute sound bites of…

 

Chris Holifield:

Nobody is censoring you.

 

Tim Pickett:

Right, yeah.

 

Chase Hudson:

Nobody is censoring you, yes.

 

Chris Holifield:

Yes. I think, especially in this industry, that’s what excites me about doing this podcast is that these stories wouldn’t get out there, otherwise. All the people that we’ve chatted with over this last year- and-a-half that we’ve been doing this show-

 

Tim Pickett:

That’s right.

 

Chris Holifield:

Even yourself, I’m sure you got advertising stipulations, Facebook throttles you; Instagram throttles you-

 

Chase Hudson:

Oh, my gosh. It’s a nightmare.

 

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. You get a little bit more reach, oh no.

 

Chase Hudson:

Yep.

 

Chris Holifield:

Yeah.

 

Tim Pickett:

You get a little bit more reach, oh no.

 

Chase Hudson:

Yep.

 

Tim Pickett:

Every time.

 

Chris Holifield:

Yeah.

 

Chase Hudson:

Yeah. The war is real and we’re all fighting it together, so I appreciate you guys. Thank you.

 

Chris Holifield:

You’re very welcome, man. To wrap up this episode of the podcast, make sure you’re subscribed in any podcast app that you have. If however you’re listening to this, maybe you just discovered it. Go hit that subscribe button because right now, we’re every other week with a new episode. We’re going to get back to every week.

 

Tim Pickett:

Yep. That’s coming up. Go to utahmarijuana.org/podcast. You can listen to any of the podcast episodes there. Read the summaries. Check it out. Stay safe out there.

 

What to Expect in This Episode

Episode 67 of Utah in the Weeds features an interview with SLC Haze owner Amy Hollenbaugh, someone who has decades of personal experience using cannabis as a medical product. She spoke with Chris and Tim at length about her own history and how she prefers to run her business.

Amy was first introduced to cannabis around age ten by way of a disabled aunt who used the plant for pain relief. [05:40] It was a one-time thing. She didn’t try it again until being diagnosed with cancer as a young adult living in Hawaii. Back then, medical cannabis couldn’t be legally purchased. She and the friend who introduced her to it grew their own plants.[10:05]

Hollenbaugh moved back to California just after the state legalized medical cannabis. She has first-hand experience with Medical Cannabis Card programs in their infancy. [12:45] She was also an early adopter of the cannabis business model.

These days, she is in Sandy, running a business that brought her to Utah. [16:50] SLC Haze is a retail outlet that sells mainly hemp (CBD) products, including gummies and tinctures. They even sell clothing and bags made from hemp textiles. [18:30]

SLC Haze also offers a variety of products that have nothing to do with CBD. The store places a heavy emphasis on overall wellness, so there are two separate therapy rooms staffed by medical professionals who utilize a variety of techniques to help people enjoy better health. To say that the store is different is an understatement.[17:40]

Episode 67 is truly unique in that it touches on aspects of cannabis that Tim and Chris have not publicly discussed before. Likewise, Amy Hollenbaugh is a fascinating guest with a quite different perspective. If you haven’t yet heard an episode of UITW, this is a good one to start with.

Resources in This Episode

• Visit SLC Haze here, SLC Haze.
• Follow the podcast at UtahMarijuana.org, or leave us a message at (385) 215-9557.
• Check out Chris Holifield’s other podcast, I am Salt Lake.
• Subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Discover Marijuana.
• Follow our Instagram page, utah_marijuana_org.

 

Podcast Transcript

Chris Holifield:

Let’s welcome everybody out to Episode 67 of Utah in the Weeds. Here we are, Tim, we’re doing this in person. It’s been a while.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, it has been a little while. This summer, cadence has been nice in some ways, but I miss it.

Chris Holifield:

Yeah.

Tim Pickett:

So it’s good to get to record and this is a good interview. I didn’t introduce myself. I’m Tim Pickett.

Chris Holifield:

I’m Chris Holifield.

Tim Pickett:

You can find all of our podcasts, all 67 episodes on Utah Marijuana.org/Podcast. Today we interviewed the owner of SLC Haze.

Chris Holifield:

Amy Hollenbaugh.

Tim Pickett:

Amy knows a lot about the history of cannabis over the past 30 years, right? You listen to this interview, it’s fascinating to go through because she really lived the whole thing from before the 90s to the California 90s. The experience of that.

Chris Holifield:

Now what she’s doing in Utah with SLC Haze.

Tim Pickett:

Right. She talks a lot about our store. She’s got a patient appreciation day that we talked a little bit about it in the interview, but I just want to mention it here. Sunday, August 15th at Lagoon, tickets are $55 at SLC Haze. You can go pick up a ticket there. Her shop is at 8585 South State Street. This is going to be a cool event. There’s some live music there and a good way to spend the day at Lagoon.

Chris Holifield:

We talked about it a little bit in depth in this interview with Amy. So make sure to listen to the whole interview. That way you can find out about the event happening.

Tim Pickett:

Absolutely.

Chris Holifield:

At Lagoon

Tim Pickett:

The other housekeeping thing for us is Utah Therapeutic Health Center is opening up a clinic in Cedar City in the next couple of weeks.

Chris Holifield:

Congratulations.

Tim Pickett:

Thank you. August 9th is our first clinic day, 9th and 10th. We’re going to be open two days a week down there. The calendar is live on UtahMarijuana.org. You can schedule visits now. We are going to be down at the Cedar City Beer Fest this weekend, so come if you’re down there. If you want to take a trip down south this weekend, we’re going to be there all day Saturday. We’re going to give away some stuff in raffles. We’ve got some fresh new hats and merch, trying to get the word out down in southern Utah that patients have access.

Chris Holifield:

Yeah. I’m looking at one of these hats right now. I can’t wait until they’re available to everybody.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, they’re pretty cool. I’m wearing the gray flat bill now. It’s really getting fun in this industry. We’re talking to a lot of people, we’re getting involved, the community’s out. The weed social at WB’s, Vivi and Amy. If you listen back a few episodes, we recorded up there with them as guests. Those are happening. Cole’s got his magazine out now on a regular cadence.

Chris Holifield:

The dispensaries are open.

Tim Pickett:

All of them are open, there’s going to be 15th sometime next year. So yeah. Things are rolling.

Chris Holifield:

It’s a wonderful time to be alive here in Utah, right?

Tim Pickett:

That’s right.

Chris Holifield:

It’s exciting. It really is.

Tim Pickett:

It is.

Chris Holifield:

Then UtahMarijuana.org, I know you mentioned it, but there’s tons of stuff on your website, Tim. Articles, blog articles plus the podcast. I mean, that’s where you come-

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. Plus podcast, plus the Discover Marijuana YouTube. Last week, the podcast was really part of that, that interaction between the two worlds, the video with the YouTube and Discover Marijuana. We really just want to give everybody, we want to build that classroom with the Discover Marijuana Series. We want to build a community with the podcast, and we want to help people in clinic.

Chris Holifield:

How can people get on your email list, Tim, at UtahMarijuana.org? Is there a tab there or something that people can sign up?

Tim Pickett:

One of the best ways actually is go to UtahMarijuana.org. Click on the pre screen, do a 42.0 second pre screen, right? Find out if you qualify or if you think you would qualify for a card, you’ll get on our email list. You can scroll right to the bottom of that page and join the email list. You’ll stay up to date on we have information on delivery and what’s happening in the industry, what products are being grown available. The podcast episodes are all housed there.

Chris Holifield:

There’s tons. I look forward to when I see. I’m like, “Cool. There’s another email,” because I’m always learning something from it.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, it’s been fun now. We’re on episode 67. We’ve been doing this for a year and a half. That just shows we’re here. We’re going to keep doing this. The information is always going to be there.

Chris Holifield:

So make sure you’re subscribed. I don’t know what podcast player you listen in. But hopefully, this podcast is there. If this podcast is not in a podcast player, let Tim or myself know. I’ll make sure it gets there. If you want to come on the podcast, let Tim or myself know. We’d love to probably bring you on as long as you have some cannabis related sorry. Right?

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. coming up this fall we’ve got some really great guests coming up.

Chris Holifield:

Man.

Tim Pickett:

So you got to get subscribed. Things are going to heat up.

Chris Holifield:

Let’s get into this interview though with Amy, this is a good one you guys. Thank you so much for listening. Seriously without you guys, there would be no Tim and I. So thank you so much for listening. Let’s get into this conversation.

 

---

Chris Holifield:

I want to go back to as far back as you want to go, the first time you ever used cannabis. I mean, what was that experience for you? Did you use it just recreationally or medicinally?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Well, that’s funny.

Chris Holifield:

I guess, it’s medicinally, however you used it. Right?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

My aunt let me smoke off her joint when I was 10 or 11 years old one time because I kept bugging her. She’s my favorite aunt. She used to take me to the Rocky Horror Picture Show. She was always so jolly. Actually she was born deformed. So she has really short arms. So they’re only as long as her elbow. She only has a couple of fingers on each one. They’re real bony. Anyways, I think it’s really painful. So she used cannabis as pain relief. That wasn’t why I was using it at 10 or 11 years old. But anyways, I didn’t continue to use it. I just tried it out one time and see what it was all about.

Chris Holifield:

Do you remember? Do you remember though back I mean 10 years old?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

I totally remember. Yeah, I was all giggly. We actually went to the Rocky Horror Picture Show with a bunch of her friends that we usually did that with. I can remember that I had a great time that night. Yeah. We went to the belly dancing restaurant. It was super fun. I remember being very giggly and talkative.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

So anyways, I’m pretty shy to begin with. So maybe that helped me come out of my shell. So I didn’t use for even through really in high school. So I didn’t really use again till a boyfriend introduced me to it when I was going through cancer stuff in my early 20s. We were living in Hawaii. We had a friend who had it. They could see what I was going through. So they just offered it to me. Boy, it just changed my whole world with anxiety, with pain, with help, just everything I was going through.

Chris Holifield:

You were saying cancer stuff.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah.

Chris Holifield:

Do you care to talk a little bit about that?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So when I was in my late 20s, I got diagnosed with some uterine and ovarian cancer. I had already been really sick throughout most of my teenage years and even prior to that, which was all immune system related. But they didn’t really know that due to probably … I mean, I lived in South Eastern Ohio. Yeah, doctors back then I don’t think were advanced as they are now. They didn’t know what was causing immune stuff back then or I don’t even think it was called immune, autoimmune-

Chris Holifield:

Yeah. Autoimmune disease.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Or a deficiency or anything. I don’t even think those words were used. But I would say mostly looking back now, and reflecting on my health practices and my wellness practices, both mentally, spiritually, physically, definitely I say probably a lot of it attributed to was environmental. Because we lived in a coal mining town. So I would say that’s probably where a lot of the toxicity originated from. Then it just compounded from there or from bad habits or not taking care of yourself, not eating right, just all that stuff compounded, compounded, compounded.

Tim Pickett:

Then you end up in Hawaii. Were you diagnosed with cancer in Hawaii?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Actually I had been diagnosed prior to that and had a surgery that took care of it. Then it came back. So this was now the comeback of it. Being in Hawaii, your access to everything is limited without it being really expensive. So when my friend introduced me to the plant, and he just grew his own, all of his own because I couldn’t find it anywhere. I said, “Well, how do you get this.” He says, “Oh, I just have to grow my own.” That’s where it all started really taking off in our life. Because I love gardening, so I just got a hold of some seeds. It was really easy actually in Hawaii to make it happen.

Chris Holifield:

What was easy about it in Hawaii?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Well, you have the sun and the temperatures that are super fabulous. I would say the hardest thing that we encountered was when it was time to take it down or just keeping the rain off of it because it does rain every day in Hawaii. So for a short amount of time, that’s why everything is so lush and green and beautiful.

Tim Pickett:

Are these plants growing over your head?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah.

Tim Pickett:

These are big, big plants.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah. So this was a pretty long time ago. This was, let’s see, in Hawaii. This was back in the early 90s. You didn’t want to get caught doing anything like that. Right? So we grew our plants in the top of the avocado trees.

Tim Pickett:

Oh, wow.

Chris Holifield:

Wait. So actually in the top of the trees?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah.

Chris Holifield:

You’d put a pot in the top of the plant, in the top of the tree?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah.

Chris Holifield:

Is that help with the smell of it or what?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Just all of it. Yeah, it wasn’t noticeable on the ground. So if someone found it, they didn’t rob you of it if they wanted it. Or if they found it and didn’t want you growing it, then out of sight, out of mind. Right? You don’t get reported. So I mean, you just have to be cautious about these kinds of things back in that date.

Tim Pickett:

Right. I mean, you’re not growing fields of it. Right?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah. Definitely not. It wasn’t fields, it was only a few plants for personal use really. But it turned out really good. So we caught on that we had a green thumb. Then we had to go back to California, move back to California because we had a family member that was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. He was doing pretty bad. So we went back to help the family really and help him and just be a support system because being across on an island is not really supportive for anyone. So back to California, we went to Lake Tahoe. Then what do you know, the plant wasn’t available there really either. Okay.

Tim Pickett:

This was in the 90s?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Now we’re in the late 90s. So they had just passed medicinal.

Chris Holifield:

Yeah. 1996 in California.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

So you had to go get this card, the only place to get it pretty much in Northern California, was in San Francisco. So an entire trip had to be planned. San Francisco, I live five and a half hours from San Francisco. So you had to plan to go into the city. The card was $475 back then.

Chris Holifield:

Bah.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

It was good for a year but they were pretty particular about who they were giving out cards to at the beginning. So you had to come with all your medical.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, this is before. There were some really big court cases after that a few years when physicians were involved in whether or not we could talk to patients using our First Amendment right. That was not established when California decided to pass the law.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah.

Tim Pickett:

There was a lot of scary stuff.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

And arresting. To plan for this trip. Okay, and to go see this doctor. That in itself was a scary thing.

Tim Pickett:

I’ll bet.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

It was in downtown San Francisco in not the financial or restaurant district. Like I said, you had to come with $475 cash for this doctor. Right? Not really knowing what was going to happen. Then what do you do after that? Because there was no pharmacies or dispensaries really available yet per se like it is now. So I lived in Lake Tahoe and the closest place to go get medicine with San Francisco. So that was a full day drive now to go. Once I got my card, which was awesome, to go and find-

Chris Holifield:

Weren’t police still getting people and busting people and causing problems?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah. So long. Still to this day they are.

Chris Holifield:

It’s a long drive, to not be 100% protected really.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah. Still to this day, they are. So now it’s just different reasonings.

Chris Holifield:

What was your reason to get your card? Just because you wanted to get a little more protection I guess?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

I did. I wanted more protection, you know what I mean? Really my ultimate end goal was to grow it myself for myself.

Chris Holifield:

They would allow that in California or no?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah.

Chris Holifield:

Yeah, yeah.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Before they changed to recreational in some counties, like in Oakland County, you’re allowed to grow 99 plants for yourself.

Chris Holifield:

Oh my gosh. Because in California, it’s all county by county. Right?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

I mean if you think that’s county. Yeah. It’s by county, right?

Chris Holifield:

Yeah, it’s all county by county.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

So you’re also allowed to be a caregiver for other people?

Tim Pickett:

Oh, so you can grow a 99 for you and I could grow a 99 for Amy and a 99 for Chris.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah. And a 99 for Ben and 99 for Molly.

Tim Pickett:

This is great.

Chris Holifield:

I will pay for your card evaluation.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

You bet.

Chris Holifield:

How many acres would 99 plants be? That would be even … 99, that’s a lot of area.

Tim Pickett:

That’s a lot of area.

Chris Holifield:

I’m just thinking if somebody really dig-

Tim Pickett:

I mean, I don’t have enough avocado trees to point 99 plants. Right, from the tops of these trees.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

No. I didn’t have that many avocado trees in Hawaii.

Tim Pickett:

But you’re up in Tahoe, so totally different climates. Totally different growth?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Absolutely. So I mean, really could could you pull off a plant in Lake Tahoe? Probably not. In the summer time, you probably could. But you’d have to be very diligent about its cultivation.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, absolutely.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Care that you’re in giving it.

Tim Pickett:

You’re in Tahoe, when did you come here?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

I came here two and a half years ago with this fabulous business plan that some of my other business partners from California, and they had a friend who lived over here. They wanted to start this CBD and cannabis hemp clothing, medicinal store, and just show Utah what the plant can do other than just be a medicine. Because it has so many great benefits that we haven’t even touched on yet really as a world.

Tim Pickett:

Really, and even on this podcast, we haven’t had a lot of conversations about hemp and the clothing and a lot of other things you can do with the plant, right?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah, for sure. There’s much. Yeah, I try to keep as many hemp products in my store as possible, even though I’m also a CBD store. So there’s a health supplement area and a CBD area. then the whole glassware area for those who use tobacco type things.

Chris Holifield:

Right. You still have to say it that way. Right?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah. So they tell us. Yes.

Tim Pickett:

So the store name’s SLC Haze.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yes. That’s our store name.

Chris Holifield:

What’s the address?

Tim Pickett:

8585 South State Street in Sandy.

Chris Holifield:

Figure it was Sandy.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah.

Tim Pickett:

Walk us through your story a little bit.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Well, you walk in and it’s hemp central. It’s hemp headquarters. So I have anything hemp that you can get your hands on, I tried to keep in my store. So there’s hemp textiles. Believe it or not, there’s only a few companies making hemp textiles in our country. There’s really only a few handfuls in the whole world. So we need a lot more of them because there’s a lot of hemp being processed now and a lot of stems, seeds and sticks.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. A lot of biomass.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah. As Snoop sings about, we don’t smoke that. So what are you going to do with it? Well, there’s fuel, there’s textiles, there’s food. There’s so many things we haven’t even touched on yet. So I try to keep that stuff in and products available in the shop. So there’s all kinds of socks, there’s clothing, there’s towels. There’s hats, there’s home décor, like candles, and incense.

Tim Pickett:

That’s a great place for gifts.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Oh my gosh. I am super gift central.

Tim Pickett:

If you’re listening to this podcast, you’re likely involved at least a little bit in the cannabis community, in our community.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah. For sure.

Tim Pickett:

This would be a great place for gifts. This is very timely.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Thank you.

Tim Pickett:

Think of your back to school. You’ve got Halloween.

Chris Holifield:

I like the way you’re thinking, Tim.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

I like the way you’re thinking.

Tim Pickett:

You’ve got Thanksgiving and chocolate giving.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah. Then I also have another thing we really to follow in the store is if it’s not hemp or from cannabis, then it needs to be eco-friendly or recycled and a small business. We love women-owned business. We love veteran owned businesses. We love people who have the same types of philosophies that we do about just taking care of your own health, wellness and mental being and being good to our planet, things like that. So I have a couple of other lines that have nothing to do with cannabis. They’re STEM, educational. So when you said gift central, we do all kinds of education in there, there’s books galore. There’s a couch, you can come and sit down and read books on cannabis and wellness and health and other things that we do too, like red light therapy, sound and vibration therapy.

Tim Pickett:

I’ve heard red light therapy is really good for you. I don’t really-

Amy Hollenbaugh:

I love it myself. That’s why we have a room because my schedule, I kept having to cancel my appointments at Quintessence. So finally I’m like, “Well, I better just get myself together and take care of myself a little better than what I’m doing.” So we just created one there.

Tim Pickett:

I love it.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Now we have a red light therapy room there as well. We have a couple of people on staff. We have a medical assisted, CNA, Ms. Heather, and then an aesthetician, Ms. Celeste. So anyways, they’re adorable. Everything’s by donation. There’s no set prices. It’s just by donation.

Tim Pickett:

Wait. Even that everything there to buy?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Not on the retail store, just on the red light therapy.

Tim Pickett:

Okay. I was going to say, yes, you’d go broke.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

And the sound and vibration therapy. I wish I could. If I could, I would.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

My business partner doesn’t like my philosophy already. Our profit and loss statements are completely opposite from one another and what they should be, you know what I mean? Which leads me into we have a little a patient appreciation day that quite a few dispensaries and CBD stores have all come together to collaborate and say thank you so much to the patients of Utah and their family and friends.

Chris Holifield:

Yeah, let’s talk about this.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, let’s talk about this because of this. I’ve got this flyer in front of me. It looks to me it’s going to be a sweet setup at Lagoon. August 15th?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

We’re trying really hard to make it as sweet as possible. That is true. Yes, it’s that Lagoon. It’s the first annual Celebrate Cannabis Patients of Utah. It is multiple dispensaries and multiple CBD stores. That also includes some of the farms and processors. There are so many that are involved. That put together patient appreciation day, we got together with Lagoon. They have offered us these two fabulous pavilions. So we have performances that afternoon from this lovely musician called Coco. Her name is Coco. She writes her own music, and she plays the ukulele. She’s fabulous. So hopefully, she’s singing some of her original songs that day.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Then this other local hip hop group, whom I love and adore, the 420V Boys. They’re going to be performing that day too. Then there’s all kinds of raffles, games and different discounts going on at the pavilion that the different dispensaries and CBD stores have all come together to contribute. So we also ended up getting the biggest discount you can get. We got $20 off for everybody. So now it’s $55.

Tim Pickett:

For the admission to Lagoon?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah.

Chris Holifield:

Wow.

Tim Pickett:

So 20 bucks-

Chris Holifield:

It’s been a while since I’ve been to Lagoon. I didn’t realize ticket prices were $75 more.

Tim Pickett:

I know.

Chris Holifield:

To get in. I mean, this is a great deal. If you’re going to go at least go this day.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah, you are. Definitely if you’re not a Cannabis patient and you just want to go anyways, then come on down. We’re a great group of people and we love everybody. We appreciate everybody. So come on down and just get a ticket anyways. Take your family out. Have a discounted day.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, so it looks you’ve got to you’ve got to buy tickets at one of these sponsors. So I’m going to read them off.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

You do. Okay.

Tim Pickett:

You got OG Cannabis Products in Millcreek, SLC Haze, yours, Zen Mart, Terra Health and Wellness in Millcreek. Some of the sponsors include True North, Curaleaf, Truce, Utah Vape Guy, Carter’s Kids Farm. I mean, this is a pretty good well rounded event.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

It is.

Tim Pickett:

The fact that you’ve got Mariojuana.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Oh.

Tim Pickett:

Right? Mario up there being the emcee.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

I know.

Tim Pickett:

Right?

Chris Holifield:

He’s a good guy.

Tim Pickett:

He’s a good guy.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

He’s so fun, and he’s great. everyone loves him. So why not have him be the emcee? Plus, he’s the first patient so let him do it.

Chris Holifield:

So yeah, and it’s good for all day. I mean, 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

It is. It’s good for the entire day. So even if you don’t want to participate in the appreciation area or you don’t want to learn about cannabis, or you already know about it, then you don’t have to hang out there. You can just roll down the river if you want.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. Come and get your tickets, show your patient card and save yourself 20 bucks.

Chris Holifield:

That’s right.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah. I’ve even extended my hours at my store for the next three weeks so that I don’t miss anyone wanting tickets.

Tim Pickett:

Well, what are your hours at your store?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

10:00 AM to 8:00 PM except for today.

Tim Pickett:

Did you make you set down early?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Well, Jessica wasn’t available. She’s camping.

Tim Pickett:

I’m feel so bad.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Gosh. There’s no reason to be sorry. We all need to be celebratory of getting out and about. I’m really excited to come out actually after the past 18 months.

Tim Pickett:

Right. How did your store fare through COVID? Because you’ve had it for two and a half years now?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah, so we have actually been open. We’re just about ready to have our two year anniversary. It hasn’t been easy. That is for sure. We have had to add many different things that we never thought of, like health supplements. I didn’t think that a CBD and hemp store would need that. But lo and behold, we definitely did. All of the clients who come in and really seem to appreciate it. They’ve learned a lot about immune building because I’m really big on that with my own health. So there are so many products that I found that seemed to be shortage during the beginning of COVID time. So I just looked into some really great small brands. What do you know? I brought them into the store. So we have some really great things in there that aren’t related to cannabis, like elderberry, colloidal silver.

Tim Pickett:

Cool.

Chris Holifield:

That’s good stuff.

Tim Pickett:

I think people appreciate the fact that you’re not just duped. People come in and they’re like, “Oh, I really appreciate you’re not just selling CBD.”

Chris Holifield:

They really do. Yeah.

Tim Pickett:

Right? I can get little bit more.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

We originally designed the store so that it could be very family friendly from visual standpoint as well as educational standpoint, which are both really important. One, I didn’t want it to look scary to a family, to a grandma bringing in their grandchild who’s out for the day doing something or a family who’s out on Saturday running an errand. I wanted the whole family to be able to come into the store and look at all the different things that we can do with this plant other than just get high, which is also CBD and medicinal. Not that there’s anything wrong with getting high, if that’s what you want to do, then have a party. Yeah. Go for it.

Tim Pickett:

But there is more to it.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah, it does have its little stigma that comes along with just that highness, of just using the plant to get high and it being recreational. Right? So it was really important for us to lay a foundation on being a good role model and a good educator on everything the plant can do and for business ideas. I mean, we need a lot more textile companies. So if you don’t want to grow the plant for medicine, you can broker all your plant matter off to a textile company.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, I’ve even looked for paper. I remember when I started my UtahMarijuana.org and the clinic. I thought, “Oh, you know what I need is I need my business cards printed on hemp paper.”

Chris Holifield:

How cool would that be?

Tim Pickett:

That just makes sense.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Doesn’t it?

Tim Pickett:

It was so hard to find.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

It’s the hardest.

Tim Pickett:

I mean, I ended up, sorry, I can’t find it.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

No. It’s hardest thing. One project that I’m actually working on right now, I’m super excited about it, that I’m working on with hemp zoo, which is this small, awesome hemp textile company down in San Diego, California. They have made this fabulous hemp cover all. Right? So hemp is breathable, it’s antibacterial, it lasts longer than cotton. So I’m trying to get the farms, especially here in Utah, to have all the cultivators start wearing hemp as well as the socks, the hats and their coveralls instead of just wearing this uncomfortable polyester from a scrubs giant corporate company that comes in. One of the-

Tim Pickett:

You’ve been to the growth facilities and they’re all in scrubs, huh?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

I’ve been to some of them. Yeah.

Tim Pickett:

They are.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

I have been to some of them. Some of are in lab coats and some are in scrubs. I mean, it’s the easiest, really. Because I would hope there wouldn’t be bugs. If there were, I hope they would only be ladybugs, but they show up. You could see really easy on on scrubs without different pockets and all, seams and things like that. So we have these coveralls that the farms haven’t really caught on to yet.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

So we’re going to need to work on that. Because I think it would be really great. One of the reasons that I came to Utah was because it was really fun to look at the regulations that they put on CBD. Okay? One of the few states that really heavily regulated CBD right. So I found that very interesting because, well, I mean, you’re only going to have serious businesses, right? Because they have to follow all these guidelines. They have to go through all these different processes which is money backing to have their either farm or store or medicine be regulated here. So I thought that was really interesting.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

I really liked that they wanted CBD regulated as well as THC because I think that’s really important. Because well, all of it is important to know where your medicine came from. Yeah. What their cultivation practices are, who they are as a business. That leads me full circle back to the hemp coveralls and how hard it is to find hemp paper. One of the other projects I’ve been working on is being a CBD retailer. All this CBD comes in, right? I have to put it on the shelf. It comes in in plastic and it comes in in a box. Then it comes in vacuum sealed in plastic. Holy cow. It’s driving me bonkers because we should be using hemp recycled paper goods for packaging all this hemp medicine our glassware or something like that and no plastic whatsoever.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. It seems a little silly. Right?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

It does.

Chris Holifield:

A little contradictory almost.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

A little bit. Here we are in the hemp and cannabis industry, right, that this plant could save our planet. Let’s be real. Then we’re packaging it up in …

Tim Pickett:

We’re doing all the normal things to get it to you.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

All the normal quick, quick things. Yeah. So there is a packaging company as well. They’re just trying to get things rolling. Holy cow. Breaking the habit is as difficult as it gets.

Chris Holifield:

Wow. I didn’t even think about all that. I wonder if gosh, one day one day it’ll become more than normal.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

I think so.

Chris Holifield:

More and more people will-

Amy Hollenbaugh:

I think so because the education is just really getting rolling. The snowball is so small, we could barely throw it. So it needs to snow. Then we need to make our snowball bigger to get this ball rolling. So that when we say we’re from the cannabis industry and we produce medicine, that it’s also the cultivation practices from what they’re wearing to the soils that they’re using. How glorious would it be if everyone was using biodynamic soil and a soil was alive and well and feeding your plants because there’s good bugs in there doing all that, mulching the soil and getting all that ready. Right? Giving us everything so that we don’t have to feed additional nutrients.

Tim Pickett:

Then all the way from the packaging to the distribution.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

All of it, from all of it.

Tim Pickett:

And everything.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Be a real support system for making it full circle how the plant can really be much more than just something to get high off of or pain relieving or anxiety relieving. Yeah, we’re missing the boat. The big, big boat.

Chris Holifield:

Hopefully we get on that boat pretty soon.

Tim Pickett:

I think we’ve got a ways. I’m a little … Gosh.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

If there’s anybody out there that wants to help us build this boat and get a bigger snowball, please come help us. Yeah. Because it is a struggle.

Tim Pickett:

I know the Global Hemp Association that’s around in Utah. Right? They were doing these socials, and they were involving other people in the industry. This was before COVID. Now they’re really trying but it does seem you’re in an uphill battle.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

It’s uphill. Yeah. I can’t imagine how much our industry has actually declined with advancement over the past 18 months due to COVID. Right? Because well, everyone’s habits are different. Some businesses didn’t make it and have shut down. I know a lot of people that are struggling and mentally too. Just all of this has been such a change for everybody. So to open the box again and get excited about really birthing this plant instead of just opening a dispensary, which is totally needed. Because otherwise, I’m out on the street looking for my medicine.

Tim Pickett:

Right? Or you’re having to drive five hours. Right?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah. Exactly.

Tim Pickett:

To San Francisco all the way back. We definitely-

Chris Holifield:

That’s a lot further than five hours from San Francisco to Utah.

Tim Pickett:

Well, from Utah for sure.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Well, depends on your time machine.

Chris Holifield:

Yeah. Or how fast you drive. That’s right, Amy.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Well, now, I’m a fast driver. So I could get there quickly. There’s a few police officers around that would confirm I could get there quickly.

Chris Holifield:

What are your thoughts on the on the Utah medical cannabis, becoming legal here and all of that? I mean, were you part of any of that?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Well, that all actually got voted on before I arrived.

Chris Holifield:

That’s true, that’s true. Yeah.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

It was one of the things that encouraged me to come here, which was before the whole COVID thing, I’m so glad for. California and Nevada too which are the two main states that I’ve operated my cannabis businesses out of for the past 12 years, they have taken such a different direction when recreational came onto play. There’s a ton of people who can offer what recreational has to offer, which is great. We need more people out educating and trying to build on these other areas that are just lacking right now.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

I love the plant so much that I just try and devote as much time, energy and effort that I can into it. Before it went recreational, I was privileged enough to be part of a roundtable group that we were hired from the state of California to help them develop the medical industry rolling into the recreational industry. It was really important for them to try and salvage the farmers and the original people that formed the cannabis community, which was mainly on the West Coast, about probably 30 some years ago. Right? People like Jack Herrera and people Dennis Perone and Brownie Mary, and just with Soma, without people that really paving the way for all of us and doing what they did with their freedoms on the line, then none of us would be here today. We would still be probably out searching the street for a joint or something. Right? Not the safest thing to do.

Tim Pickett:

So do you like the medical program? It sounds your business does better with a medical program in general separating the recreational or the adult use from that?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Well, yeah. Once the farm bill passed, there was a real explosion of, I’m looking for some word. Some imitation. I’ll call it imitation, especially CBD products. Coming in from other countries, not being tested, no basis of what was in it, no quality control. with me having a family member who had MS, obtaining CBD even in California, was the hardest thing I have ever had to do in the cannabis world. Five years ago, finding CBD for him, that was quality. That wasn’t tainted in any way with pesticides, with chemical residuals, with alcohol residuals. Oh my goodness. For it to have consistency, for him to respond, this is a really advanced sick young man.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

So the consistency of the medicine and the cannabis that he was getting was of utmost importance. We saw a huge difference with our own research and our own logging of different applications and different products that we would get for him. It could be anything from driving to Colorado to flying to Washington to finding growers in California. There’s there especially back then, before this farm bill got passed, there wasn’t a whole lot of really money and profit, right, in the CBD industry. So to find that was the hardest thing possible. When he went without it, it was huge declines in his health,

Amy Hollenbaugh:

He’s already in a wheelchair and needing care and nursing 24/7. So when you’re already in that situation, and you see huge declines, you’re doing everything in your power to make sure that the good medicines, that you’re finding that what can you do to help them, keep producing good medicine. When you find a medicine that is not of quality, I mean, I feel it’s my obligation at this point as a patient and as a caretaker, and a caregiver to try and educate our patients and our own selves out there about taking it into your own hand. If you’re not responding well to an application that you’re using of a cannabis product, why? There’ll be an answer as to why. There’ll be an answer as to what reactions you’re having and why you’re having that too. They almost all lead back to the same thing, and that’s dirty medicine.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

So having clean, tested, regulated medicine, which is probably going to be from a smaller farmer, because to have control of it in the growing environment, right, is harder and more challenging the bigger it gets. Then also, I mean, the cannabis industry, holy cow, the strange, change, just like the weather and so does everything else. We’re just changing day by day, hour by hour almost with products, with development, with different compounds that we’re finally researching enough to find out. Oh, CBG is great for sleep. Right? Or certain strains are great to grow for anxiety and bottle, spray for anxiety. So finding all that out and moving forward with that is what I really wanted to continue to be a part of.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Before I got into the cannabis industry, I was in the pharmaceutical industry. Didn’t really care for how that was operating. So the whole plant medicine, and that’s also what really took my health into a real positive direction was introducing plant medicine, learning how to use it, learning what terpenes my body favored, and what applications my body favored was a big part of why I feel better and operate daily on a more positive note.

Tim Pickett:

What are some of the products and terpenes that you really favor?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Oh gosh. Well, I love Linalool. That’s absolutely my ultimate favorite. Because, well, one, it’s calming so that the lavender smell that you’re familiar with if you’re wondering what linalool smells. It’s the nice calming lavender smell and has calming effects. I love it well because it has that effect. But I also won my first Cannabis Cup in California growing lavender. So that’s the other reason I love it. Soma’s lavender, one of the old Rastafarians, his old strain. So it’s really beneficial for pain relief, for sleeping, for inflammation. It’s huge for an appetite stimulant. So if you need help with the appetite, then linalool is a great usually terpene for you.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Another awesome terpene is myrcene which I love myrcene at nighttime because I have too much to do during the day. So that’s your tropically mango-ish smelling terpene. What are some other favorites that I have? Well, I’m really a favorite when I use cannabis, THC cannabis, I’m a big favor of sativas because I have a lot going on all day long. So as much as I’d really to just smoke Wiz Khalifa Kush all day long, I’m not going to get anything done.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

So I love lemon terpenes, limonene and pinene. Those are awesome terpenes for myself. It’s to each person’s own liking and what every person has a little bit more different reaction than some people. Some people can’t take limonene at all or pinene because it gives them anxiety. So you can also get some bad side effects from all the terpenes as well as not good. If you use citrus at nighttime, you might not sleep. So anyway.

Tim Pickett:

So if you need to pull an all-nighter, there’s a good one for you.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

There is.

Chris Holifield:

The little sativa, little limonene.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Definitely. I love lime all day long.

Tim Pickett:

What would you tell somebody? I know I asked this almost on every episode. I’m going to ask you though, Amy, is people that are listening, that maybe are on the fence of trying cannabis as a way to help them with something, some medicinal reasons. What would what advice or suggestions would you tell them?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Well, I’m only going to go with suggestions because I’m not a doctor.

Tim Pickett:

Sure, sure, sure.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

We’re not on TV because I do play one on TV. But no, seriously, it’s only going to be suggestions. I have had bad experiences, not myself. But I have had other people did not use slow, shall we say. So they hallucinated the heck out of themselves for about eight or more hours. If that’s not what you’re looking for, I would say definitely start slow. Starting slow. it could be a THC gummy or a nibble of one. Or it could be a CBD product, anything from a topical to a gum to a vape cartridge. I mean, there’s so many products on the market.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

They have so many options now for us, it’s almost confusing. Do you want to be discreet with your use or do you want everyone to see your vape pen? So it’s going to be your own personal, how you feel about it. I don’t care what anybody thinks about my vape pen or my stick of CBD gum. If somebody else cares, then you can be discreet if you want to be. Then also, I mean, if you’re not using a lot of prescription medications, I would say you’re probably going to have a lower tolerance. So keep that in mind when you go get a product. You might not want to vape product because that’s going to hit you really quick and really hard.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

So if you’re not already have a tolerance to any kind of pain relief medications, and I would say that would be prescription ones from your doctor, or you’re not already using substances, then your tolerance is probably going to be low. Keep that in mind. So I’ve had a couple little adorable old ladies come in to my store for educational purposes. So they came in. They went through the whole process of getting their card and they were so excited. They went down to one of our dispensaries that has the THC products. I don’t know what was said, so I can only go with what the little old lady was telling me. But she ate an entire gummy. Then she decided to eat another one an hour later.

Tim Pickett:

Look out. Watch this.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Now she has been religiously going to church every Sunday for 70 something years. She has never smoked a tobacco cigarette or a clove cigarette or any other type of cigarette for that matter.

Chris Holifield:

So never had her mind altered by anything.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

No mind altering on anything, I don’t think. Then also has never drank drank alcohol. I’m asking her all this when she’s in my store. It’s always …

Tim Pickett:

Wait, did she have the gummy in your store now?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

No. Goodness no.

Tim Pickett:

I was going to say.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Because I don’t have those there.

Tim Pickett:

No. I didn’t know if maybe she ate them before or she didn’t or something.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah. I know. We don’t have open houses with those kind of gummies. But we do with gum. So it’s not THC gum. Yeah. So she really had quite a journey. Okay? It lasted her about six hours, she said. She didn’t know it was going to do that. So there’s an example of especially in Utah with the elderly people, and then just the church in general and so many people practicing those.

Chris Holifield:

Yeah, ways of life. Right?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah, they are. They’re ways. Yeah. So I would say if any of those people are out here listening, start low and go slow, which we recommend anyways. But some people like to just dive off the deep end.

Chris Holifield:

I think that’s a common recommendation, I think you say that even a lot too, Tim, to start.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. We say that all that time. It really is a matter of every patient needs that personal, like a guide. Here, here. Let me help you find just the right dose. Right?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Oh, it’s so hard too to recommend a dose of any type to really anybody because everyone’s going to react differently to a terpene, to a delivery method. Then they have their own …

Chris Holifield:

Well, then they have their own free will about what they’re going to listen and they hear. They might hear different things than you are thinking you’re saying.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Absolutely.

Chris Holifield:

They go home and take a gummy and then they take another one an hour later.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

I mean even in Utah with our strict regulations, the gummies look as delicious as can be. I would seriously eat a whole bag, don’t anybody go off and do that. I mean, I’ve eaten three bags before. Yeah, yep, and yep. I don’t recommend that to anybody. Anyways, but I would do it again.

Chris Holifield:

Well, sometimes we forge. If you think about the first time you ever used smoked a joint or smoked out of a bong, that one hit and you are gone, right?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Right.

Chris Holifield:

I mean at least it was for me, if you go back quite a few years.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, you’re sitting there talking to yourself.

Chris Holifield:

Now that we’ve built up a little bit of a tolerance, sometimes we forget that people have to start real small.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Real small.

Tim Pickett:

Real low. Yeah. Or we even know how to, if you do smoke too much or eat too much, we know how to handle it. Just chill out. Just relax, ride it out.

Chris Holifield:

Do these things, change your schedule.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah.

Chris Holifield:

Right?

Tim Pickett:

Yeah.

Chris Holifield:

You can be honest about it too. I find that for me, being honest about it around other people gives people more freedom, right? If you use a little too much, being able to say to your partner or your spouse, your girlfriend, boyfriend, whoever is there, “Oh wow. I’m a little bit high right now or I’m a little stoned right now.” We can’t do that.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah.

Chris Holifield:

I’m not going to be as reliable right now. Right? That’s okay. But that takes a while too. That’s even the next step from being using to being open about you use to somebody else.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

To being open. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Well, talking about terpenes again, there’s even terpenes that are really good if you took too much THC. So the pepper terpene is really good for counteracting that.

Chris Holifield:

I’ve heard for being a little bit of THC, psychoactivity and the paranoia.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). You could have black pepper around you, you could have a hot pepper around you. Suck on that.

Tim Pickett:

Wow. That I didn’t have to find that.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Shoot. You might have to call the fire department regarding your tongue and your mouth.

Chris Holifield:

Just drink a lot of waters, maybe the water that’s making you …

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Lemon also. So we had this one guy in California, we used to go to these farmers markets as vendors. Okay? Before the law changed, when you were a medical card holder, we had farmers markets throughout the whole entire state. They were cannabis farmers markets, and the farmers could go there. Well, we called it exchange, exchange and donate each other’s products back and forth.

Tim Pickett:

This was in California?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

This is in California.

Tim Pickett:

They don’t do this anymore, though?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Nope. You’re not allowed to do that now because of the recreational law that came into play.

Tim Pickett:

Right. There’s actually less access for patients really in need in California. Right? Because the recreational law.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah, yeah. It really hurt access to and pricing to the medical community in California for sure and the other Pacific states that did that as well too. Yeah, it did. But the bigger picture is the bigger picture. That’s to generate taxable real commodities-

Tim Pickett:

Revenue.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

And revenue. So anyways, they’re doing a dang good job at that. So we have to give them that. But yeah, access became really hard for patients, right? So we had these farmers markets. Not just the patients too, but because if you lived in a county that had a high Grow Your Own number, then you were allowed to do something with your excess product. So these farmers markets formed, okay? So they’re really great. It’s a how a lot of the companies that ended up going big, that are still around today that built their brand, how they built their brand, is they started at the farmers market. Then found a packer and were able to go legal and go through all those channels and have a giant big warehouse now, 45,000 square feet and have it all pre going to cookies if you’re good enough. So now that’s the industry in California. I’m not part of that industry.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

So like I the small farmer, small medicine, patient appreciation type of where you can really … I like one on ones. I have one on one people all day long that come in, asking questions. Some have come from a dispensary and they’re like, “Oh, so and so told me to come and ask you the question.” I’m like, “Oh, but she’s a pharmacist.”

Chris Holifield:

Sounds like you should get a job as a pharmacist.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Well, I mean, no. That’s where we’re all really collaborating with one another is so the pharmacists definitely understand all the chemical compounds and all those terpene compounds. They understand all that. then we have a cultivator that’s had their medical card since 1997. Right? I’ve been growing my own strain since then and gotten rid of some and obtained some strictly because of how it affects you and the side effects or the flavors. Everything gets so trendy and changes so much that you have to change with the times. If you can’t do that, you’ll just get smothered and stomped on.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

But being able to do that is excellent research for all of us since we weren’t legally allowed to be researching and developing right over the past 30 or 50 years since we got shut down in the 30s. Right? So there is so much work to catch up on. So now, you have the pharmacist that is the professionally school educated, right, in the chemistry and pharmacology. Then you have your street educated person like myself, who has had to learn what strains helped me, what strains were causing my anxiety, what was keeping me up at night.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

That was all my own individual research. I took that responsibility on myself, trying to figure out why my health wasn’t improving or why it would decline when I use this product or didn’t have that. So now, I think it’s actually really great that we do have a doctor, pharmacist on staff there. We can claim that. As we all continue to work more together, they will learn more of the cannabis research and terminology. We will all learn medical terminology and pharmacology and understand that better. So two worlds collide.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. There will be much more integration of both those worlds, as we go forward, right? Which is going to be great.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yes. Something that I really look forward to is integrating those departments together. Yeah, they’ve been completely divided for decades. I’ll have to say, I disagree with that completely. Because I use both in my own health. There’s a time and a place where you absolutely need a prescription. For example, I threw my back out. There was no getting away from the pain I was in, I have some of the best products around and nothing I had was even touching it. So I just had to. That’s when I was so thankful for the ER doctor and the prescription of muscle relaxers and a little bit of pain relief for a few days, to get me past all the spasming that I was going through. But I don’t want to use it every day.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. Right.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

So I’m definitely a fan when I need it. I love definitely making sure I get all my vitamins and my minerals. I can’t do that through cannabis. So I have my awesome nutritional doctor that makes sure I get my vitamin shots. So the two worlds together I think can do great things. That’s where the medical industry, like it’s time they’re ready. Doctors and veterinarians, friends of mine, a lot of them are going back to school and re-educating and taking only nutritional classes or only plant medicine classes or herbalist classes so that they can have more education and be talking to a bigger patient group on different types of alternative choices that we do have, and really just using pharmaceuticals for emergency type or really disease typed ailments.

Chris Holifield:

Applications, right?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yep. Everyone would feel better. Yeah. You’d feel a lot better.

Chris Holifield:

Such an interesting story, Tim.

Tim Pickett:

Absolutely. We’ve covered a lot of different things. But it’s been a great conversation.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah. It’s been super fun.

Tim Pickett:

I’m excited about your-

Amy Hollenbaugh:

I brought you guys a gift from my store.

Tim Pickett:

You did?

Chris Holifield:

Yeah.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah, I did. So here’s some examples of things that are in my store.

Tim Pickett:

Look at this.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

And all kinds of things for you guys.

Tim Pickett:

So let’s talk about some of them while we’re still recording.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah. Textile. So we have hemp towels.

Chris Holifield:

So Anact hand towel. It’s hemp and cotton.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah.

Tim Pickett:

Really fulls.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Hemp and organic cotton. So you can have hemp towels in your bathroom or kitchen. I have hemp reuseable coffee and tea filters.

Chris Holifield:

Look at that.

Tim Pickett:

What?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

I know. Who knew? No, it doesn’t get you high.

Chris Holifield:

You pour over the coffee. This is like an edible filter?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

I know, it sounds like a good idea. But it is not edible, but it is reusable.

Tim Pickett:

This is so cool.

Chris Holifield:

Okay. So that’s really cool.

Tim Pickett:

For people listening, it’s like this cloth hemp thing.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah, it is.

Chris Holifield:

It looks a hemp mask. You just put it in your coffeemaker and this will-

Tim Pickett:

This will actually save you some money to.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah. You’re reusing instead of throwing out coffee filters and it’s hemp. I mean, especially now that there are so many growers and so much hemp and cannabis being produced nation and worldwide. We have all this excess stems, seeds again, and leaves that Snoop Dogg right doesn’t recommend we smoke. Right? So we have to do something with it. so anyways, there’s all these different products.

Tim Pickett:

So I’ve got some CBD gum here.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

That’s one of my favorite products around right now.

Tim Pickett:

Broad spectrum, frosted mint, 200 milligrams, CBD.

Chris Holifield:

These are all products you can get in your store right now. Right?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, this is really cool. I’ve never tried any gum. I mean, this is a good concept.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Oh well, that’s a local company and they’re registered.

Chris Holifield:

A local. Let’s just give them.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah, of course. It’s called vibe gum. Everyone that I’ve had using it really loves it for anxiety and panic and a quick calm. So there you go. If you want to try some gum, and it’s all really good ingredients so there’s nothing bad in there. We have a couple dentist’s office that even have it now. Then the other item is a hemp candle. This is one of my other … Well, I won five-

Chris Holifield:

Jamaican Me Crazy.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah. Jamaican Me Crazy fat, that’s one of my favorite scents. It’s very tropically and calming.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. This is really cool.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yep, that is a high times Cannabis Cup award winning product. Let’s see. I won two high times cups in Sacramento with that product, that scent. Then I also want to with the candle, with the different scent. Then we won in Michigan for best CBD massage candle.

Tim Pickett:

Oh really?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah. So there’s all hemp wicks, so they’re non toxic.

Tim Pickett:

Hand-poured, THC-free, hemp wicks.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yep.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, these candles are going to … I mean, this is great.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Then the other thing I brought was this doesn’t have any CBD, hemp or THC in it. But it’s one of my favorite tea brands, period. I’m a huge tea drinker. That’s why I brought you the filter as well so you can try it. It’s a local brand too. The Queen’s Tea.

Tim Pickett:

I met these people at the farmers market, at the downtown farmers market.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah, you can also get it at SLC Haze.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don’t know. This was a few farmers markets ago. The downtown farmers market.

Chris Holifield:

The Queen’s Tea.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

The Queen’s Tea.

Tim Pickett:

Actually I need to interview them on on my other podcast.

Chris Holifield:

Yeah. I am Salt Lake.

Tim Pickett:

On I am Salt Lake.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

So I love the Queen’s Tea. They’re one of my favorite brands. They blend everything themselves and hand select all the ingredients, which is what we like to do.

Tim Pickett:

I like that scents.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

At SLC Haze, hand select everything there.

Chris Holifield:

Again, great for gifts. What’s the address again, Amy?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

8585 South State Street in Sandy.

Tim Pickett:

You’re on Facebook to I’m looking at … Actually I’m on your Facebook page which is tons of cool information and photos. Is this little French Bulldog, is that a little Frenchie?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yes.

Tim Pickett:

Is that your little doggy?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

That’s Winston Haze.

Tim Pickett:

I’ve always wanted a little Frenchie.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Well, he is pretty mad that he didn’t get to come.

Tim Pickett:

We should’ve brought him.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

So anyways, he is the rock star of the whole thing.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. I want to come just to come hang out with the dog.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

You should because there’s people that come and hang out with him on a daily and weekly basis.

Tim Pickett:

Well, that’s pretty cool.

Chris Holifield:

Yeah.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

He is. He’s the coolest guy ever. He’ll definitely give you lots of love when you come. So count on that. Count on that.

Tim Pickett:

Then again, the Lagoon thing is happening on August 15th, which is a Sunday.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

It is.

Tim Pickett:

Which is the perfect way to spend your Sunday in my opinion, right?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

We put a lot of thought into that. So everyone come.

Chris Holifield:

The Church of Lagoon for $55, $20 off. Take you and your family up there.

Tim Pickett:

But come into SLC Haze and buy your ticket there.

Chris Holifield:

Yeah, that’s right.

Tim Pickett:

Support Amy.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Thank you.

Tim Pickett:

Let’s keep her in business, you guys. This has been really great.

Chris Holifield:

I think she’s great for the community. I mean, I think I do.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

I do. Yeah, there’s-

Tim Pickett:

I mean, we definitely need this resource for the community.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah. Keep your immune system built too, okay? Even if you don’t want to use cannabis or hemp products, we have really great immune and health products in there. I have a couple pine resin products that have kept a couple little old ladies healthy for a year and a half.

Tim Pickett:

That must just make you feel so good.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

It does. Yeah.

Tim Pickett:

That you’re helping these people out.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yeah. Puts a big smile on my face all day long.

Tim Pickett:

That is so awesome.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

It’s why I do it. Yep. Because to share how I got healthy and then to see other people is just winning. You got to love it. That’s why we’re here. Love and share.

Tim Pickett:

Anything else you want to-

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Trying to do my part.

Tim Pickett:

Anything else you want to mention, Amy, before we wrap this out?

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Come out to Lagoon Day.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. Come out to lagoon day.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

After that come to SLC Haze.

Chris Holifield:

Absolutely.

Tim Pickett:

Well, come to SLC Haze before Lagoon Day.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Before.

Chris Holifield:

Before. You got to get your tickets.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

During and after.

Chris Holifield:

Because you can’t get your tickets on the day of, after date. You have to get them before.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

You do. You need to get them before August 14th. So plan ahead.

Chris Holifield:

Very cool.

Tim Pickett:

Absolutely.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Come on in. Great joining you guys. Thanks for having me.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. Thanks for coming out.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

You guys are a lot of fun.

Chris Holifield:

Thank you so much. We appreciate it. Anything you want to add here before we wrap this up, Tim?

Tim Pickett:

The only thing I want to add is stay safe out there.

Amy Hollenbaugh:

Yep, everybody.

Chris Holifield:

All right, guys. Have a great night.

What to Expect in This Episode

In this somewhat unique episode, Tim joins Utah in the Weeds co-host Chris Holifield and Zion Medicinal chief science officer Blake Smith to talk about the similarities and differences between Delta 8 and Delta 9 THC.

For starters, this podcast will introduce you to the idea of cannabinoid isomers. [03:58] That’s what Delta 8 and Delta 9 are. They are isomers with different characteristics that affect the endocannabinoid system in specific ways. Processors are very interested in these isomers for the purposes of creating more specialized product profiles.

Blake discussed the fact that Delta 8 is highly regulated in Utah. [07:07] It is only allowed medically, while other states do not even test for it. This causes concern for some medical professionals, including Tim, because patients could be consuming Delta 8 in out-of-state products without knowing it. Unfortunately, even some non-products produced and sold in Utah contain Delta 8.

Eventually, the discussion transitioned to the medical benefits of both isomers. [13:30] Delta 8 seems to be more beneficial for relieving pain because it delivers a body high rather than a mental high. Delta 9 is more appropriate for treatment goals involving its psychoactive effects.

Following the appropriateness of both isomers, Tim and Blake turned to discuss how Delta 8 is synthesized from Delta 9. [27:26] It can be done organically, but most processors do it chemically. That bothers Blake and Tim to the extent that they recommend not inhaling Delta 8 products. They also recommend only using properly-tested products.

This episode contains a lot of technical information relating to chemistry. It is probably in your wheelhouse if you appreciate the science behind Medical Cannabis. If you’re just an average user trying to decide between the two isomers, there is helpful information in this podcast for you too.

Resources in This Episode

• This week we welcome Blake Smith from Zion Medicinal. Check out the first time he joined the podcast!
• Follow the podcast at UtahMarijuana.org, or leave us a message at (385) 215-9557.
• Check out Chris Holifield’s other podcast, I am Salt Lake.
• Subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Discover Marijuana.

Podcast Transcript

Tim Pickett:

Basically, let’s welcome everybody out. This is a joint venture of Discover Marijuana and Utah in the Weeds. Discover Marijuana with Tim and Blake. I’m Tim Pickett, and we’ve got Blake Smith, who you can see masked up. And at the airport just joining us back perfect timing Blake, to join us. We’re going to talk about Delta 8 versus Delta 9 today. And I’m going to share my screen and do some intros just to get started so you guys can all learn who we are, if you don’t know who we are.

Tim Pickett:

I’m going to share the sound here, the PowerPoint. So we’re going to talk about Delta 8 versus Delta 9, which is a really great topic. We’re going to cover both Delta 8 and Delta 9, we’ll cover the benefits, we’ll talk about the questions between the two why one might be better than the other for certain things, how they fit specifically in Utah from a medical market perspective. So let me introduce myself. I’m Tim Pickett. I’m the founder of utahmarijuana.org, and Utah Therapeutic Health Center. I’m the host of Discover Marijuana and one of the CO hosts of Utah in the Weeds podcast. I happen to be voted the best QMP in Utah, which is awesome. I really appreciate that. We’ve got Blake Smith there.

Blake Smith:

I don’t know Tim, I voted for you like 10 times.

Tim Pickett:

Nice. So we got Blake Smith, he’s the Chief Science Officer at Zion Medicinal. Also the other co-host of Discover Marijuana. We do a lot of educational YouTube stuff. Blake, do you want to add anything there? He left?

Blake Smith:

Well, no, I’m here. I don’t know. What else should I add? My background is bio analytical chemistry and I love doing this.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. And Chris Holifield with us. My co-host on Utah in the Weeds. I’m really glad that you came tonight, Chris, and you could do this with us.

Chris Holifield:

I’m honored to be here.

Tim Pickett:

So, what I think is nice about this group, the three of us is we cover all aspects, right? We cover the medical side from the provider, we’ve got the science from Blake and we’ve got really, Chris you’re like the connoisseur and the cannabis culture guru in Utah.

Chris Holifield:

I don’t know if I go that far. I’m just a regular Joe that enjoys cannabis.

Blake Smith:

And Chris, I voted for you like 10 times as being the connoisseur of Utah.

Tim Pickett:

Okay.

Chris Holifield:

Thank you.

Tim Pickett:

So you can find Blake and I on Discover Marijuana, our YouTube channel. You can also find… you can subscribe. We have a ton of videos there. Here’s one, here’s a little clip of Blake and I. This is a fun little clip. Let me see if I can get it to play.

Blake Smith:

To put it bluntly, one…

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. Nice.

Blake Smith:

What Cheech and Chong were smoking…

Tim Pickett:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Blake Smith:

Is not what we’re smoking today.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah.

Tim Pickett:

What Cheech and Chong were smoking is not what we’re smoking today, Blake. And Utah in the Weeds podcast, if you’re not familiar with that, it really just cannabis culture in Utah. Yeah, Chris, I mean, we interview…

Chris Holifield:

Yeah. Over 60 episodes with patients and growers and pharmacists. I mean, Blake was on the episode way back, I think episode four. So we’ve chatted with all kinds of people on there.

Tim Pickett:

So tonight, we’re going to talk about and I’ll intro this for us, Blake, Delta 8. Really, let’s focus a little bit on Delta 8 first. Blake, you want to give us a rundown of what exactly Delta 8 is?

Blake Smith:

Yeah. So Delta 8 is an isomer of Delta 9. And basically, the reason why it’s called Delta 9 is because of where the covalent bond is sitting. It’s attached to the ninth carbon on that carbon ring of the THC molecule. So technically, there’s multiple isomers. There’s Delta 8, there’s Delta 9, Delta 6, Delta 10, Delta 11. And so each one of these isomers has different characteristics, in terms of how long it hangs out in endo cannabinoid receptor system one, versus how long it hangs out or moves to endo cannabinoid receptor system two which means it has different targets and they have potentially different therapeutic values. Some are naturally occurring in plants, others are moved through different means either using a catalyst or you could use energetic oxygen and UV light. There’s different ways to create these isomers. Typically you can find Delta 8 in plants, but it’s really small. Usually it’s more of a considered a degradation product if it’s found naturally in plants.

Tim Pickett:

So it’s going to act differently because it’s going to absorb or bind to different receptors?

Blake Smith:

Typically, it has to do with how long it sits in endo one versus endo two. So let me give you an example. So typically speaking, when we think about THC Delta 9, we’re mimicking the dopamine in the central nervous system, your body recognizes THC and knows what to do with it because it acts very similar. But because of where the covalent bond is, and its binding affinity, it tends to stay there for a period of time, which causes a larger psychoactive effect. Delta 8 does not tend to hang out in endo cannabinoid receptor system one for very long. In fact, it moves right to endo cannabinoid receptor system two, which is the cellular uptake of cannabinoids. You find higher reception sites typically around the trunk of your body where you have your organs that will uptake cannabinoids quicker and have more receptor sites in general. And so this is why Delta 8 is often described as a body high. And so can it get you psycho actively high? Yes, it can, but usually not to the same degree that Delta 9 will.

Tim Pickett:

Got it. So let’s talk about the legality of Delta 8 here and the loophole that it falls under, right? Because you can make it from a hemp plant. You can basically like, you’re not really synthesizing it, you’re deriving it from hemp plant, right? But you’re not having to sell it in the medical market, particularly in many states, right?

Blake Smith:

That is correct. So typically, you can take THC Delta 9, and you can do conversion properties with it, and you can get it to move to Delta 8. But the more prevalent, the thing that people are more interested in, is if they can take CBD and make Delta 8 from CBD because the cost is so much better. However, to do that, it requires usually very harsh catalysts to do that. People are using sulfuric acid or hydrochloric acid to form that catalytic bridge. In which case, if you don’t get that cleaned up, you can get what I call Frankenstein monsters on an HPLC, high performance liquid chromatography mass spectrometer, you’ll see a lot of little peaks. And then you’ll see a peak that comes up that represents your Delta 8, and then you’ll see these other little peaks. Those little peaks can represent impurities and that could be a potential problem.

Blake Smith:

In the state of Utah, we do not allow Delta 8 except in the medical market, and we require 95% purity to do so. Which, this may not be positive, but I think it’s a good rule. Because especially if you’re inhaling it, you don’t want to inhale Frankenstein monsters, you want something that you know is medicinal and has a very, very high quality standard to it.

Tim Pickett:

Okay. So back up just a little bit, because I know, I mean, I have them in my house, CBD Gummies that are not just CBD gummies that were purchased in Utah. And then what you’re saying is that and they’re not labeled Delta 8, but man, they feel just like Delta 8. Is this something that you’re saying it’s essentially not allowed or they’re not labeling it and they’re putting it through in Utah? Or what’s the… Do you know much about that?

Blake Smith:

Yeah, if you’re buying it from out of state, then most states don’t regulate the same way that Utah regulates the Delta 8 market. So you could theoretically come from Florida and you could bring a nerds rope that technically passes the National Farm Bills, Delta 9 standard and point 3% THC, because they don’t recognize Delta 8 or Delta 10 or Delta 6 as a THC derivative. They only are counting Delta 9 and THCA. So if that’s the case, I mean, theoretically, I could put hundreds of milligrams into one of these products and in some states, it’s never even tested and I don’t even have to declare it because they don’t test for it.

Tim Pickett:

Got it.

Blake Smith:

That’s pretty sketch. I mean, if you think about it.

Tim Pickett:

But we’ve talked a lot about this. Now I wanted to get your opinion too, because we talk about it in that QMP, the qualified medical provider and the pharmacy medical provider like working group that I run, or that I’m involved in. One of the big topics, one of our big priorities is to crack down on the testing of these over-the-counter CBD products with Delta 8 in them because there are multiple reports specifically from like, Mindy Mondeo, at Beehive in Brigham City will say, “Look, I get this package, and the patient brings it in. And is like, “Hey, I got this at so and so’s clinic or so and so’s shop. And this did not… this made me feel funny.” Right? And it has Delta 8 in it. But it was purchased here in Utah. So I know these things are getting through. But essentially, it’s because of the federal rules aren’t clear and Utah’s rules are clear. But you could theoretically bring a product in from out of state, or you could almost bring a product in from out of state that meets criteria and then sell it.

Blake Smith:

Yeah, I mean, it would come down to whether or not the Department of Ag can find you and enforce it.

Tim Pickett:

Got it.

Blake Smith:

Now we do know that they’ve done some enforcement and there’s been some people who have had some pretty serious ramifications for that. But yeah, I mean, let’s just say because I have a hemp company as well, I could theoretically make a bunch of gummies if I had wanted to and throw Delta 10 in them, for example. No one is testing for Delta 10. That CBD gummy would never ever show up as having any THC. But Delta 10 is about two thirds more potent than Delta 9. I could get a lot of people really lit really quickly off a Delta 10 gummy product and it would be “fully legal”. This is why having a medical program becomes really, really important because if we’re talking about medicine, you should know everything in it. And I wouldn’t even just say psycho actives, if I have a whole bunch of CBN, or CBG, or CBC in a product you should probably know about those cannabinoids too. What’s to stop me from throwing melatonin in if I don’t declare it?

Blake Smith:

I mean, really the difference with medicine is you should know everything that’s in your product, you should know that it’s been tested to a certain standard. And I would love to know what Chris… Chris, I’ve just thrown a lot of bombs out there in the universe, man. What do you think about all this? I mean, I’m sure you’ve heard some of this before, but I’d love to hear what you think.

Chris Holifield:

About Delta 8?

Blake Smith:

Just everything that Tim and I have been talking about so far, the regulation, how it works, Delta 10 other variants?

Chris Holifield:

Well, my concern is, especially since Delta 8 gets labeled in with more of the hemp industry, the hemp industry wants to be away from the THC industry. So it’s like you start wrapping the two together and it’s just they start… gets in the wrong hands, it can get somebody messed up. Like I shared a story about my mom getting a hold of some Delta 8 actually. I think, Tim heard that story. My mom was given some CBD. And we come to find out later on it has some Delta 8 in it. I mean, it pretty much knocked her out, passed her out on the floor. And to me, for anybody to be able to get that from any store, that doesn’t sit well with me. That needs… That’s just my honest opinion. Because that could have really hurt my mom.

Tim Pickett:

Yep. This is good. Let’s move on to Delta 9 a little bit, right? Let’s talk about Delta 9. We know it’s more commonly known than Delta 8. It’s what gets us high, right? It’s associated with all the psycho activity. And it’s not necessarily associated with I don’t know the Delta 9, we’re talking absorption in the brain, right, Blake?

Chris Holifield:

I think he froze up on us.

Tim Pickett:

I think Blake might have froze. And I can go through a little bit of this. But really, it’s going to bind pretty well with the endo cannabinoid system one, CB one receptors, Delta 9. When we talk about them together, Delta 8 versus Delta 9, we really are… we’re really going to talk about, from a medical standpoint, we’re talking about the benefits of each. So Delta 9 is associated with pain relief from this psycho activity, right? You’re disassociating yourself from the pain. Whereas Delta 8’s pain relief is more peripherally absorbed and it’s more of that body high sensation. So it may be in fact “more pain relieving”, but it’s not as disassociating.

Tim Pickett:

So some people really like that idea because it doesn’t get them high. And other people will say, “Well, this Delta 8 product doesn’t work.” Because they’re used to that psycho activity. And so I think from that, from the pain relief perspective, you’ve got to… it’s about setting expectations first, before using the product and then knowing what you’re using. Delta 8 is really well known for anti-nausea. It’s also really well known. Here, we didn’t list it, but it’s also very well used for GI, and like Blake was saying it absorbs really well in the trunk area of the body in the GI system. So it tends to help people with more abdominal pain or more GI upset issues, things like that, just because there’s a lot more receptors there.

Tim Pickett:

Blake, we’re talking about the comparison between Delta 8 and Delta 9 from a medical standpoint. We’ve got the psycho activity and the dissociation of Delta 9, where we have that peripherally absorbed Delta 8 and the benefits of anti-anxiety, for example, where you may get better anti-anxiety from the Delta 8 product, because it’s not as bi-phasic or it doesn’t cause increased anxiety at high doses like Delta 9 does.

Blake Smith:

Yeah. Sorry, Tim, I missed the question I cut out for a minute. But discussing the medical benefits for Delta 8 versus Delta 9, is that where we’re at?

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, basically. We’re talking about what Delta 9 is better for and what Delta 8 is better for.

Blake Smith:

Sure.

Tim Pickett:

Talking a lot about about trunk issues and abdominal pain issues for Delta 8.

Blake Smith:

Yeah, that’s absolutely right. When we think about Delta 8, I mean, the first thing that immediately comes to mind are cancer patients, people who are on chemotherapy that causes nausea, upset stomach, even if you are just taking medications say, antibiotics that cause disruption in the stomach, like… anyway, there’s a slew of them. But those are immediately the things that come to mind. Also IBS, if you’re talking about colitis, and some of those things, Delta 8 can have a much better effect for those. Also, if you’re just in pain, it can help take the edge off. And so without inhibiting cerebral function in any way, shape, or form, if you’re looking to have a long lasting psychoactive effect, Delta 8 could be a disappointment for you.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah.

Blake Smith:

Especially if you have tons of Delta 9 in the system, or are used to Delta 9 in the system, Delta 8 could be not the right product for you, if that’s what you’re looking for.

Tim Pickett:

Right. Like we talk a lot about patient specific medical care. And we can move on from this slide, I think, because when we’re talking about why bother with Delta 8, well, this is a good example. I’m going to show this video of you and I Blake talking in your lab, about the lady with hand arthritis.

Blake Smith:

Yeah.

Tim Pickett:

It works.

Blake Smith:

One of my favorite stories ever is we had this little bit older woman who said, “I’ve had arthritis for the last 30 years, and I have tried everything with my doctor everything. And there’s no way…” her fingers were actually bent, she couldn’t unlock her fingers. And she is just pointing me like that. “So there’s nothing you can do to do this. I’ve lived with this my whole life.” And so we rub some balm on her knuckles. And I said, “This is going to be a great moment for you to prove me wrong.” And then after a couple minutes, she’s like, “Now see, I told you.” And she’s pointing and moving her fingers and they were completely locked before which again, you don’t have to be a believer. It just works when it’s real medicine.

Tim Pickett:

That can be about both Delta 8 and Delta 9. But the really that patient specific guideline, you’ve got a 68 year old gentleman who gets dizzy, who has some type of cancer and needs pain relief, but doesn’t have a lot of experience with that psycho-activity, perfect patient for a high Delta 8 product versus a Delta 9. You’ve got a 32 year old woman who is used to Delta 9, has smoked weed for years on and off maybe. And she’s not going to get… she might pick up the lemon dream vape cart that I’ve got here the box and she might think, “Gosh, this thing isn’t strong enough.” Right? Because it’s going to be weighted heavily to Delta 8 versus Delta 9. So in that patient I’m going to recommend Delta 9 product.

Blake Smith:

Yeah, I mean, you’re exactly right, Tim. I mean, one of the other ways to think about some of this is why… there’s all these other cannabinoids, why do we even use Delta 9 or some of these other cannabinoids. The fact of the matter is, there is therapeutic value. One of the greatest things that we have found in cannabis science, especially around the entourage effect is THC has a higher absorption rate than CBD or some of the other cannabinoids do. And so when you pair some THC with other cannabinoids, the overall effect is ultimately better. And so the other thing that’s really cool about that is because you have higher cellular absorption rates with THC, and that can be both Delta 9 and Delta 8, and I’m assuming that that’s the same for other analogs. But I have another test to run on that. But yes.

Blake Smith:

And so in a balm, in some of those types of things, a topical as much as you can throw in almost the better because it’s a localized effect right there with multiple cannabinoids, including CBD for inflammation. And so Delta 9… and there’s other great purposes to Delta 9 too. I think particularly of somebody who is doing cognitive behavioral therapy, and who has very low levels of THC for them to reward new behavior trends set forth between them and their specialists that they’re seeing is a positive way to reinforce new behaviors. It’s a reward system for the brain.

Blake Smith:

I mean, there are plenty of places where THC Delta 9 is extremely appropriate. The thing that I think is interesting is the rec market tends to say Delta 8 has no value. It’s a cheap, synthoid version of Delta 9. And so that’s not the real stuff. And what I would say is, I think that’s actually a pretty ignorant position to take. The whole point of almost all medicine that’s been created since the beginning of time has come from finding plants, mostly plant extracts, finding out what medicinal properties they have, extracting those properties, and then figuring out their mechanisms of action, and then using those specific isolates to make medicine. You can look at aspirin and see the salicylic acid. You can get that from birch trees. You can…

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. White willow bark, right?

Blake Smith:

Yeah. Willow bark. Thank you. willow bark. Yep. There’s a whole bunch of different natural remedies, that basically are the exact same compounds that we now create.

Tim Pickett:

All right. Your dandelion tea for the diuretic, your willow bark.

Blake Smith:

Yeah. I mean, there’s tons and tons of examples of this.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. And we’re not always having to… so the benefit from both is that patient specific therapy. So from a rec market side, yeah, maybe there is less value for Delta 8 on the rec side. I mean, maybe that’s true.

Blake Smith:

I think that’s probably true. I think that is probably true.

Tim Pickett:

But from the medical side, there’s going to be a lot of people who really benefit from a more tailored approach, right? That’s what we could call it?

Blake Smith:

No, I think that’s absolutely the right way. For a perfect example of this, why would you take aspirin, versus Tylenol, versus ibuprofen, right? All three of those are designed to do a similar function, they technically metabolized differently, one is stomach metabolized one is intestinally metabolized, the other is liver metabolized. They actually, mechanism do something slightly different from each other and so there’s a time and a place where aspirin is appropriate. Taking half a Tylenol a day will not thin your blood whereas taking half an aspirin a day would. And so, even in pain we need to think about medicinal properties of the individual cannabinoids including isomers.

Tim Pickett:

So do you find that there’s going to be more… so if there’s Delta 8, Delta 9, and so if somebody is a flower connoisseur. They like flower. They’re going to get a higher Delta 9 product versus Delta 8, right? Because it’s not really made in high quantities in the plant itself so-

Blake Smith:

Yeah, generally speaking that’s correct.

Tim Pickett:

So, you’re going to be looking for, from a Delta 8 perspective product wise, you’re going to be looking for products that are cartridges, tinctures, bombs, things like that.

Blake Smith:

Yeah. And you might include gelatinous cubes in Utah, right?

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, edibles.

Blake Smith:

There are some other products edibles, you might find Delta 8 products in those. But again, usually speaking, you’re going to pair that Delta 8 with other cannabinoids as well. Because I would be hesitant to say that any one single cannabinoid by itself without any other values, probably is not the right medicine either.

Tim Pickett:

Right. Chris, what do you think about the products? Have you tried a lot of products with Delta 8? Chris might have frozen too. That’s okay. I think, I mean I recommend, for example, I have a lemon dream vape cart box here and it’s fairly high, it’s about two thirds Delta 8 versus one third Delta 9. And I find myself recommending this cartridge all the time to patients who are new to the cannabis scene like the don’t have a lot of experience with Delta 9, and that psycho-activity. But I have also had patients come back to me and say, “Wow, that lemon dream wasn’t very strong, it’s not strong enough.” But it’s always patients who have a little higher tolerance for THC, for Delta 9, or they’re looking for something more disassociating and less of the Delta 8 effect. When you ingest Delta 8 versus Delta 9, is there a difference between the absorption?

Blake Smith:

Yeah, so Delta 8 absorbs quicker. And there’s actually ways to even increase that if you like normal type something. What we have found say for example with the Plush Gummies produced by Zion, they are typically 10 milligrams of Delta 9 and 10 milligrams of Delta 8. And you will feel Delta 8 start to affect you at 45 minutes almost to the tea. And you’ll feel this immediate relaxing and body sensation, and then between an hour and five, and an hour and 15 minutes, you’ll feel the head change for the Delta 9. So even how they absorb them, and that’s based on q log p value, what the absorption is across the cell membrane. Delta 8, the isomers of different forms of THC have different qualities, and that’s actually expected based on changing the chemical bonds so.

Tim Pickett:

Got it. We’re waiting for Chris to come back on here we lost him for a minute, hopefully he’ll come back but one of the questions that we have on the chat here is wondering why some are saying Delta 8 THC is too synthetic, also why and in parentheses hemp companies say Delta 9 THCV Isolate is unstable and quickly turns to Delta 8 THCV. Do you know much about this Blake? This is definitely out of my wheelhouse, we’re talking about THCV.

Blake Smith:

By the way, I love THCV. It’s non psychoactive and has appetite restriction qualities to it, and so there’s some really cool implications medically for THCV. I mean, this may not be popular to say but let’s just be true and honest with everybody here together tonight. You can make almost any cannabinoid from almost any other cannabinoid. And you can do that under various types of conditions. Some of those conditions can be very, very, strong and hard, you could be throwing really strong basis, really strong acids. Or you can be doing all kinds of interesting catalytic bridges, so like to make CBN, a lot of times people would use iodine. But let’s be honest about this, if you’re using iodine as your catalytic bridge, you should not be inhaling that in your lungs because you can’t get it all out. If your CBN has a slightly pink hue to it, you should be a little bit concerned about that because real CBN that doesn’t have a catalytic bridge like iodine or something that’s in that same class of compounds, typically is yellow or a golden honey color, just like your other cannabinoids like CBD.

Blake Smith:

But anyway, having said all that, look, one of the reasons why people say that it’s over synthetic, it’s because a lot of times most people are making this by flying harsh chemicals to make that. And I’m probably going to be shot by industry people on this, I hope not but the reality is there’s other ways to do this. I mean, naturally, like the degradation of THC to CBN can be done with energetic oxygen, UV light, and time, and a little bit of heat helps too. So UV, energetic oxygen, by energetic oxygen, by energetic oxygen it can’t be just O2, it’s got to be carbon monoxide or something along those lines. But those emanate out, they don’t stay on the molecule. Whereas I have concerns when you use things like iodine because you leave residues, it’s a similar problem with hydrocarbon structure. You leave residues on these molecules and so those things stay with those molecules when you inhale them, or eat them, or whatever that looks like.

Blake Smith:

So the synthetic side of it, look, if we’re talking about synthetic, what we’re talking about is spice. I know all the different chemicals needed to make THC. I can go into a lab and start putting phosphates together with carbon rings, and I can start doing organic chemistry and make THC. I can do that without any plant derived material or whatsoever-

Tim Pickett:

Now there’s products on the market with better THC that are synthetic. Marinol, and I mean these don’t come from anything related to the cannabis plant at all.

Blake Smith:

That’s right. But what we have found is, your body doesn’t react exactly the same way as does with THC. It’s like I sort of know what this is, but it’s not exactly the same. Whereas what we have found is, if you use plant material to start, and then you change cannabinoids based on using plant material or existing cannabinoids and just shifting the bond or things like that, your body knows what to do with those as if they were produced naturally. But that’s a tricky business, it’s a tricky business and it’s not for somebody in a garage with dirt floors and radiator hoses. And this is where pharmaceuticals employ chemists, and they employ scientists and doctors and stuff to start doing this in a way that you know you’re anywhere from 95 to 99.999% pure. And so-

Tim Pickett:

What I’m basically hearing from all this is, don’t inhale over the counter Delta 8.

Blake Smith:

Yep. I wouldn’t touch it.

Tim Pickett:

In fact, it’s probably not safe to ingest over the counter Delta 8 base because of the testing, because we don’t really know what’s all in there.

Blake Smith:

Whereas on the medical side the state does require testing. That’s why from a medical market side, you know that the Delta 8 being produced there is safe because of the stringent rules the state has set. If they can’t meet that criteria it can’t make it into the market. So any Delta you produce in the state that gets into the medical market meets that criteria.

Tim Pickett:

I’d even go one step further than this too, and tell me if you agree with this because I always tell my patients who are concerned, if they come in and they’re concerned about Delta 8, I would say, “Look, if you get a product with Delta 8 and you’re having to use a lot of it. You’re buying a vape cartridge and you’re having to use a lot of Delta 8 products, even in the medical market. I’ll suggest that my patients transition to a little more Delta 9 products so that they don’t have to use so much Delta 8 because even if it’s safe and we’re testing it, just because it’s not as, quote unquote, natural. If you’re having to use high doses of something that is helped along in the lab, and you could use flower to supplement that, then you might as well.” That to me just makes sense.

Blake Smith:

Yeah. We think about this in terms of what we would call, minimum efficacious dose. And so, if you can get away with having the desired medical benefit of 2% THC, or let’s even call it milligrams because I’m more confident with milligrams, I like to dose mg per kick. Let’s say you do two milligrams and that’s sufficient for you, that’s what you should be taking. So to your point, I’m in agreement with you. Look, if you have to take 100 mgs of Delta 8 and you could get the same effect with 10 mgs of Delta 9, you should do the 10 mgs of Delta 9. That’s a more efficacious dose responsible way to administer drugs. And so, that’s why on serving sizes you look at, you know, a Twinkie, you’re not supposed to eat both Twinkies in the pack, you’re only supposed to be one, right?. It’s because two is actually more than what you’re supposed to do now. This comes down to the individual controlling that.

Blake Smith:

We recommended the reason why you’re supposed to take one to two Advils is because of the amount of milligrams in there. But almost everybody’s like, “No, I need at least four.” And they just pop as many pills as they can take, so this is where the individual responsible needs to work with their medical provider and their pharmacist to get the right medicine, at the right dose, to alleviate the medical condition.

Tim Pickett:

Chris, do you have much experience with Delta 8?

Chris Holifield:

No, really no experience as far as I know of.

Tim Pickett:

Right. I mean, well, there you go. I guess at this point, that’s the answer we all…

Chris Holifield:

Have I gotten cannabis that has Delta 8 in it? Probably.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, or products with Delta 8 in them.

Chris Holifield:

Yeah, because I know… wasn’t there, there was Zion, you guys had some flower that had some Delta 8 in it, at Wholesome I think I picked up. I personally have no complaints but-

Tim Pickett:

No. And I’ll be honest, when I have had, from a personal experience and from patient reports, if patients have… they don’t want a lot of psycho activity but they need that body relaxation, or that of patients with abdominal pain will come back and they’ll be like, “Man, I found this product that has half Delta 8 and a half Delta 9, and it’s just perfect. So that I can not be too high during the day and I can still work and I have an okay appetite. I don’t have that nausea in the morning. Those are perfect products for people. But like I say, it tends people with lower tolerance to THC, and you’re talking about minimum efficacious dose, well, that’s a medical market.

Blake Smith:

That’s right. I mean, here’s the thing that I think is also interesting. You can’t base it totally of THC percentage or milligrams because I’m going to high five everybody here and on the chat because we just got some state results on flower at 45%. Now, all of us around this table here, I don’t-

Chris Holifield:

That’s awesome.

Blake Smith:

…believe it’s a 45%. And the reason I don’t believe that is because we have internal analytics, and we showed it with somewhere closer to about 38%, and I trust my own analytics. But having said that, it comes off at 45%, man, if you’re not an experienced user, that’s going to floor you, that’s going to have some really crazy repercussions if you’re not comfortable with something that strong. And so, that’s not an appropriate medicine for certain conditions. Now, I would say there are probably people out there who have the tolerance, but that is inappropriate medication for certain conditions. And I do trust that people tend to know who they are and what their deal is, but this is why in a medical market, you need to talk with your pharmacist, you need to talk with your medical provider. Is this the right medicine for the condition that I’m looking for? And if you’ve been self-medicating for years and years, you probably have a good better sense of that than your doctor does. However, they should be part of that care team with you just like you would for antibiotics or anything else.

Tim Pickett:

Yep, I totally agree. And I’m a big proponent of medical marijuana programs in states, much more so even than adult use programs. I think that adults should have the choice to use what they want to use in a safe way, but I also think we leave out a huge number of potential patients that could benefit from medical cannabis when we bypass the medical market first, and we give people access to 45, or even 38% THC products. They don’t have good experiences so this is a great place to wrap up to our next episode.

Chris Holifield:

We have some questions [crosstalk 00:37:20].

Tim Pickett:

Good. We have some Q&A questions, takes forever

Chris Holifield:

Before we get out of here we got two questions up here. There was actually a question I noticed in the chat before I froze earlier, I don’t know if that ever got addressed.

Tim Pickett:

Yes.

Chris Holifield:

Somebody threw a question in there.

Tim Pickett:

We addressed that while you were frozen.

Chris Holifield:

Okay. So there’s two other questions in here. One’s from Courtney, she says that, does producing Delta 8 lower the cost of cannabis for patients in Utah, or does it not affect that?

Blake Smith:

This is a great question. So, I’ve heard this a lot from a lot of different people. Where they say, “Well, if you can make Delta 8 cheaper, you should make sure that it’s cheaper for patients.” And here’s what I would say. We should make all cannabis products cheaper for patients across the board, and that includes Delta 8 and everything else. But what I would also say is, it’s probably the wrong way to think about it because what happens typically, people are basing that off of percentage of THC. So it’s not the manufacturer’s ability to make that that makes, necessarily, the value proposition for medicine. But look, for me personally, I’m a producer. I don’t have a pharmacy, I don’t determine that final price, I can tell you what’s happened multiple times in the market where I’ve been asked to lower my prices as a wholesaler to the pharmacy, I’ve lowered some of my prices, and then those prices were not equally lowered on the pharmacy side. And so I take a hit at my company, and then the pharmacy gets the advantage.

Blake Smith:

Now, that’s not all pharmacies, and that’s not everybody, that’s a few isolated cases. But then, if I can’t guarantee a final distribution of that product at a lower price, I don’t have any incentive to change my pricing, does that make sense? I try to keep them reasonable within the market but I don’t have control of those final prices.

Chris Holifield:

There’s another question here, this one’s going to Tim. It’s anonymous, they say, Tim, do you prefer one over the other for your patients or does that vary by condition experienced?

Tim Pickett:

I basically try to meet patients where they’re at. So, somebody comes in and they’ve used cannabis before and they understand what THC, what Delta 9 feels like. You’re going to try to guide them into products that will help them, maybe higher THC products if a patient has… There are times when Delta 9 is extremely valuable, and that’s when somebody, you can just tell, they cannot get out of their own head with their pain. So you can try Delta 8 in those scenarios, but you want to add Delta 9 to that because you need to get them some relief. Like some type of, wow, I’m going to put my pain over there for a while. That’s the Delta 9 patient, and that’s meeting patients where they’re at. Delta 8, if I run into patients with chemo induced nausea, or really just chronic nausea in general, or patients who are really anxious but that anxiety manifests in a lot of abdominal pain, and cramping, and abdominal type issues, then Delta 8, I tend to lean those patients to that right away.

Tim Pickett:

But in addition, like we touched on tonight, I’ll write down CBN and I’ll say, when you’re going to the pharmacy, ask about products with CBN. Ask about products with Delta 8, and I’ll just write those two things on the paper, and then I hand it to the patient and then they can go make that next step with the pharmacist to try to pick the product that might work for them.

Chris Holifield:

There’s another question here, the final question unless anybody else has any questions, throw them in the Q&A. It says, are there other Deltas aside from eight and nine? I believe this was a question related too, yeah.

Blake Smith:

Yeah. So there’s, we know of, there’s Delta 10, Delta 6, and Delta 11. Sorry with that, they’re announcing over the intercom. Delta 6, we have made a Delta 6 before but we don’t know therapeutically really what it does yet, and so you haven’t seen any products from Zion were round Delta six because I don’t know yet what it does and therapeutically what the value set of that is. Based on some initial preliminary tests we’ve done, we think it will be more like a Delta 8 feel, it’s not a psychoactive. But we haven’t seen what medical benefit it has yet.

Blake Smith:

And then Delta 10, we have been able to make multiple times and we have found that it’s about two thirds more potent than Delta 9, but we haven’t taken it through all safety parameters yet. And Delta 11 actually is interesting, because it often is a product where if you take even CBD, and you encapsulate that CBD, and you run it through your intestines, and it sits in there for a really long time, so let’s say you have big steak dinner, and mashed potatoes, and gravy, and you take three or four CBD Gummies with it, and that sits in your intestinal tract for a very long period of time, you’ll start to do conversion within your own body, and then your liver will actually do a conversion step to turn it into alpha-hydroxy Delta 11, and you can get very high off of that as well. And so some people who take CBD will have a high experience, it’s not from the CBD, it’s because your body is doing conversion to Delta 11.

Tim Pickett:

Wow.

Chris Holifield:

Wow, that’s a lot of info right there.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, that’s a lot of info. It really comes down to just being careful. This is strong medicines-

Blake Smith:

Yeah. That’s right.

Tim Pickett:

It doesn’t matter who talks about it, we should just talk about it as a strong medicine. This is some strong stuff.

Blake Smith:

And very cool stuff. And very cool stuff, right?

Tim Pickett:

Super cool.

Blake Smith:

And we have great operators in the state of Utah, we have a lot of different companies. If you look at Fruit of Life from Wasatch, for example, it’s one of the most popular carts that’s out there. It’s a very cool product and has a lot of popularity. Almost everybody out there is producing things. And so that’s one of the cool things about the market, is if it’s done right, all products should be found everywhere and all patients should be able to benefit from all of those products and that’s a really cool thing.

Tim Pickett:

That’s awesome.

Chris Holifield:

Amen.

Tim Pickett:

Well, I’ve liked this discussion. Let me see if I’ve got… I don’t have anything else except for, follow us on YouTube, Discover Marijuana. You can find both the YouTube channel with Tim and Blake, the Discover Marijuana education series. You can also switch over to a playlist, That’s all Utah in the Weeds, and Chris and I’s podcast there. You can find out more at zionmedicinal.com. Blake, do you have a way for people to reach out to you guys specifically with questions or should they go through us?

Blake Smith:

They can reach out to Zion, especially around Zion products, although you know me, I’m happy to talk about anything anywhere in the industry. I just think having a good industry presence is the right thing to do for patients, but they can reach out, there’s an email for Zion Medicinal email that gets read, I believe, twice a week. But also, if they give them to you, you have me on hot quick dial, so you can call me anytime and get quick answers so.

Tim Pickett:

Yes.

Chris Holifield:

You’re on his fav five.

Tim Pickett:

That’s right, fav five. Well, how about us Chris?

Chris Holifield:

You’re on my top one man, right there.

Tim Pickett:

I’m in the top five? At least I’m on the top five with both of you guys.

Chris Holifield:

Yeah.

Tim Pickett:

From us, really, again, utahmarijuana.org, you can find everything you need to know about the Utah cannabis program right there.

Blake Smith:

Alright, I’m jumping on a plane, I’ll see you all later.

Chris Holifield:

See you Blake.

Blake Smith:

Bye everybody.