Shawn Hammond’s background [1:26]
Why did Shawn get into hemp? [7:05]
How was Shawn able to meet Utah’s March 1st mandate? [10:01]
What is Shawn’s vision for his grow operation? [11:56]
Challenges with his temporary location [19:39]
Shawn’s plan for his permanent facility [21:00]
Which cannabis strains is Shawn currently growing? [22:00]
Does Shawn think being in Utah holds him back? [24:14]
How often does Shawn’s grow operation send Medical Marijuana to dispensaries? [32:31]
What is involved in health department testing? [34:41]
Why is it important to have a medical market for cannabis? [36:52]
Shawn’s thoughts on the recreational market [39:22]
Shawn shares his experience with a patient with mental health issues [42:18]
Several years ago, Shawn began coaching weightlifting and opened up a small gym in his garage to train athletes. Shawn also worked in the private equity space when, about five years ago, he started getting involved in the cannabis industry. Specifically, he began working with a master grower in Southern Oregon. This led to him starting a grow operation up in Southern Oregon, He later started a hemp company, which allowed him to get back into business in Utah.
Shawn got involved in hemp after seeing his master grower in Oregon treat seizures from a brain tumor with a high CBD strain of cannabis. This experience led to his fascination with hemp and the benefits of hemp.
He was able to take that experience, and the lessons he has learned in setting up operations and led to bringing in some of the best cultivators and growers in the world. His goal is to ensure patients have access to the finest cannabis products for whatever conditions they’re looking to treat.
Utah state officials gave growers like Shawn an aggressive timeline of March 1, 2020. This included Shawn providing the state with a long-term grow plan.
To meet this deadline, Shawn set up a temporary grow operation. His team has been able to grow some beautiful flowers and plants. Their grow operation is very manual and not all automated.
Shawn is currently building a state-of-the-art, world-class grow facility that will be their permanent location.
Shawn wants to grow the best exotics and the most beneficial plants. He is committed to helping patients get the relief that they need. They have spent over $150,000 on their temporary grow location and they are spending millions on their new, permanent location.
He’s excited about the difference he’s making in patients’ lives so far. Their process is very scientific and meticulous, including hand trimming leaves off of the flower.
There were challenges with zoning and other laws, such as needing to be a certain distance from schools and from residential areas. Also, he needed a landlord that was progressive enough to understand the opportunity.
The new facility will have hundreds of thousands of dollars in HVAC. They expect for the facility to be completed in six to eight weeks, and then operational two weeks after that.
Shawn’s team is doing a lot of research and development, defining their genetic library. He is looking for plants that have the characteristics of the mother plant, the father plant, and the proper terpene profiles.
Shawn doesn’t believe being in Utah will hold him back. He enjoyed his time in Oregon, but his family is here in Utah.
In 2018, Proposition 2 was finalizing and he began to look into how he could help people in his home state and provide them with high-quality medicine.
Shawn’s delivery to dispensaries is dependent on how fast the state completes test results. The team performs a harvest about every three weeks. From there, it takes about ten days to two weeks to dry.
Once properly dried, the state will come pick it up for testing. Once test results are processed, they are able to release products to dispensaries.
The Utah Department of Health performs tests to protect patients, including testing for potency and the presence of THC and cannabinoids.
They also test for mold, metals, pesticides, microbials, fungicides, etc., making sure that products are safe to consume.
Shawn believes it’s important to have a functioning program where they can be confident they are consuming Medical Cannabis products that will not cause them further harm. Organ systems and their immune systems may already be compromised. This makes state testing critical to give patients confidence in the products they’re using.
Shawn thinks that the term “recreational” should be replaced with “adult use.” He believes the term “recreational” carries a stigma of a cannabis culture that is characterized as lazy, not motivated, etc.
He also believes that the next step for the state of Utah is to expand the list of qualifying conditions for cannabis. Pharmaceuticals have failed to help conditions such as depression, anxiety, and ADHD, and he believes Medical Marijuana can be a better option.
Shawn describes his experience with a patient who has been hospitalized with mental health issues and chronic pain. After receiving a Medical Cannabis Card, the chronic pain went away. Also, she was able stop using benzodiazepines, antipsychotics and antidepressants to treat her mental health issues. She saw a huge improvement in her quality of life. Even her psychiatrist was amazed at her turnaround.
Tim’s new column for Salt Baked City [1:04]
How busy has Tim’s clinic been? [4:02]
More about Tim’s clinic [5:12]
Anxiety and Medical Marijuana in Utah [8:24]
When choosing cannabis, what level of THC should you choose? [11:52]
How Tim stays current with information and news on cannabis [15:13]
Tim’s recommendations for people that build up a tolerance to cannabis and want to decrease it [16:55]
Tim and Chris request new podcast guests [22:21]
Can you use an out-of-state Medical Marijuana card in Utah? [25:17]
What are the potential effects of the Federal Government decriminalizing marijuana? [27:04]
How to connect with Tim and Chris [36:16]
UtahMarijuana.org
IAmSaltLake.com
Utah in the Weeds Podcast
Utah Medical Cannabis Program
Salt Baked City
Utah’s Compassionate Use Board
Healer.com
Salt Baked City is a new publication covering news and information around marijuana in Utah. Tim will be writing a column about Medical Cannabis from a provider’s perspective, and answering questions from readers.
Tim has seen an increase in visits with the relaxing of COVID-19 restrictions. Tim’s clinic is also involved with training providers, and helping them learn the process, dosing, etc.
His clinic’s website is utahmarijuana.org. Tim made the decision to consolidate his two websites, utahmarijuana.clinic and utahmarijuana.org. Now, visitors can learn more about medical marijuana, listen to the podcast, and learn about how to get a card all on the same site.
With COVID-19, Tim has seen a significant increase in people looking to get a Medical Marijuana Card for anxiety. Unfortunately, it is not a qualifying condition.
There is a petition process that you can go through with Utah’s Compassionate Use Board to try to get a Medical Marijuana Card for anxiety.
Tim and Chris enjoyed the conversations with Medical Marijuana patient, Diseree Zacher, and Desiree Hennessy from Utah Patients Coalition.
They also enjoyed discussions with Medical Marijuana patients, Mario Enriquez and David Sutherland.
For context, in the 1960s and 1970s during the Vietnam War, soldiers were treating their PTSD with cannabis. The cannabis they consumed was 6-8% THC.
Cannabis from Utah dispensaries can have THC percentages up to 25% or higher, which is very different from what was used during the Vietnam era.
Tim cautions Medical Marijuana users to be careful with doses containing higher percentages of THC, as they could cause neurologic issues and mental health issues.
Tim belongs to the Society of Cannabis Clinicians. He also recommends healer.com for more information on Medical Marijuana.
Tim believes that Medical Cannabis users should decrease their tolerance once a quarter. This would involve not consuming any cannabis products for two days. After two days, you would slowly increase your usage.
Tim and Chris would love to chat with people involved with local pharmacies. They also love patient stories. If you feel like you have a unique story, reach out to Tim and Chris.
Also, they would like to talk to people who may not be directly related to the Medical Cannabis industry. For example, glass blowers, out-of-state chefs who cook with cannabis, etc. Reach out to Chris at chris@iamsaltlake.com if you’re interested.
No, you cannot use an out-of-state Medical Marijuana Card in Utah. You can use those cards for help in providing documentation for your condition, but you still have to get a card or get a recommendation from a Qualified Medical Provider in Utah.
Tim believes that decriminalizing marijuana would allow for interstate commerce, driving the costs down for patients. For example, a patient in Utah could receive a Medical Marijuana Card, then order products from Colorado. This would introduce competition and drive costs down.
Connect with Tim at utahmarijuana.org. You can also call Tim at (801)851-5554.
Connect with Chris at chris@iamsaltlake.com.
Who is Richard Oborn? [1:47]
Richard’s experience with cannabis [4:56]
Did Utah model their program after different states or like the regulatory side? [6:35]
What is the role of the Department of Health? [9:06]
Where is Medical Cannabis grown? [11:53]
When will more dispensaries open? [13:19]
How many cards have been issued? [15:07]
Are people still having issues navigating the system to get Medical Cannabis Cards? [17:53]
What has the response been since the program launched? [19:48]
When does home delivery start? [21:38]
What is the process for additional conditions, like anxiety, to be considered as a qualifying condition? [25:18]
Does the Department of Health also manage the Compassionate Use Board? [27:12]
What changes to the Medical Marijuana program is Richard excited to see? [33:21]
UtahMarijuana.org
IAmSaltLake.com
Utah in the Weeds Podcast
Utah Medical Cannabis Program
Richard is the Director of the Center for Medical Cannabis in the Utah Department of Health. Prior to this role, he oversaw the Office of Vital Records and Statistics, where he started the Hemp Extract Registration Program. This program allowed epilepsy patients to legally possess CBD.
Once it became more clear that Proposition 2 would pass, he was asked to help the department prepare for the new law. Then, in March 2019, the Center for Medical Cannabis was created.
Richard has never used cannabis, but due to the roles at the Center for Medical Cannabis and the Office of Vital Records and Statistics, he has performed extensive research with cannabis and CBD, including attending conferences and visiting facilities in other states.
Richard was able to visit programs in other states to get a better understanding of how Utah’s cannabis program could operate. For example, Minnesota has a very restricted program, with only two companies that run the cultivation and processing of Medical Cannabis.
He also visited Arizona, which is a much more liberal program with little government involvement. Seeing different types of cannabis programs helped him prepare for what to expect in Utah.
The primary responsibility is to issue Medical Marijuana Cards.They also register Qualified Medical Providers and help manage training those providers.
Another function of the department is to oversee the pharmacies in the state. This includes ensuring that they operate in a way that complies with Utah law, and that protects the public.
There’s also an element of having to coordinate with the Utah Department of Agriculture and Food to ensure cannabis products are safe to consume.
Medical Cannabis for Utah pharmacies can only be grown in the state of Utah. This is primarily due to federal laws that prohibit transport across state lines.
Some dispensaries are planning to open during the summer. However, COVID-19 has caused delays for dispensaries opening.
There are 3100 Medical Cannabis Card holders. Cards were issued to residents across the state, from rural counties such as Grand, Millard, and Beaver counties, to larger counties such as Salt Lake, Davis, and Weber counties. They are currently seeing between 300-400 new applications per week.
The Department of Health has also certified over 300 Qualified Medical Providers. This includes MDs, DOs, APRN, and Physician Assistants, like Tim.
To find a Qualified Medical Provider, go to medicalcannabis.utah.gov and click the “Locate a Provider” link.
The Department of Health has worked to smooth out the process, including adding user guides to the site, and including a phone number on the site that people can call to get help during the process.
They will continue to improve the process to make it easier to navigate.
Right now, they are on track to issue 10,000 Medical Cannabis Cards by the end of the year. They are seeing COVID-19 impact how fast people can go through the process.
Also, because patients will no longer be able to use a medical letter in 2021, they expect to see an increase in cards issued at the end of the year.
Home delivery will start this summer. To receive home deliveries, you will need to have a Medical Marijuana Card. Patients who only have medical letters will not qualify for home delivery.
The Utah legislature has final say over qualifying conditions. The legislature also created the Cannabinoid Product Board that the Department of Health works with directly.The responsibility of the board is to make recommendations to the interim Health and Human Services Committee regarding any additional conditions that have evidence of being successfully treated by Medical Cannabis.
The board is continually reviewing studies about different conditions. They are reviewing studies that were conducted within the United States, and from around the world, looking to see if there is anything that they would recommend, as a board, to the legislature.
Yes, the Department of Health manages both the Cannabinoid Product Board and the Compassionate Use Board. The Compassionate Use Board reviews the applications that come from minors who are under the age of 21. They also review any applications that come from individuals that do not have a qualifying condition, but whose qualified medical provider believes that they would benefit from Medical Cannabis.
On https://medicalcannabis.utah.gov/, go to Providers and then Continuing Education. There are four credit hours that a provider could take toward their licensure. After taking an approved course, there is a $100 registration fee and a $50 renewal fee every two years.
The biggest change is with home delivery. Also, the Department of Health continues to improve the system, and the process of obtaining cards.
Finally, Richard is excited to see more pharmacies open during the summer and fall.
Who is Diseree Zacher? [1:53]
Why did Diseree get involved with Medical Marijuana? [4:01]
How does Diseree consume cannabis? [13:08]
Diseree’s advice for someone considering Medical Marijuana [21:03]
Diseree’s thoughts on abstinence for addiction treatment [22:49]
What does life look like for Diseree now? [31:14]
Diseree’s favorite Medical Marijuana strains [32:49]
UtahMarijuana.org
IAmSaltLake.com
Utah in the Weeds Podcast
Dragonfly Wellness
Diseree is a Medical Marijuana patient. Originally from Utah, she began using marijuana for medical purposes within the last year.
While in her 20s, Diseree experienced a variety of symptoms as a result of trauma, including depression, anxiety, PTSD, insomnia, and chronic pain. Her symptoms progressed to an inability to control her extremities, and fibromyalgia.
After becoming bedridden, she was forced to apply for Social Security Disability.
This started her on the path of requiring a number of medications to ease her symptoms: pain medications, stimulants, sleep medications, etc. This included narcotics, and psychiatric/antipsychotic medications. Over time, she required more and more medications, which led to full-blown addiction.
She began the process of attempting to heal her addiction, which then helped clear her head and expose her to all of the mental and physical issues she had.
About three years ago, Diseree began researching Medical Marijuana as an option for relief. Although finding information online was difficult, she learned that different strains can help sleep, anxiety, and pain.
Since using cannabis to treat these symptoms, she was able to reduce her medications from 13 to just a couple. She’s returned to work full time and was recently promoted. She also rides a bike 20 miles a day. She credits this turn around to the cannabis industry.
Diseree primarily consumes edibles and “dabs.” She is unhappy with the product selection in Utah, so she goes out of state for these products. However, Tim mentions that new products are coming onto the market that may satisfy what she is looking for.
Diseree recommends that people who are considering consuming marijuana to educate themselves on the pros and cons of using cannabis. Also, she recommends that you set realistic goals when using cannabis.
Diseree believes that abstinence works. However, she believes that treating addiction with abstinence should be monitored by a professional.
Her belief is that we become addicted because we’re escaping a painful reality. For Diseree, that reality was sexual assault, physical pain, nightmares at night, anxiety, etc.
Now she uses Medical Marijuana, meditation, and yoga to relax and reconnect with her body and mind.
Tim also believes that using cannabis in an addiction or recovery could act as an exit drug. For severe addictions, he agrees that it is important to have a professional helping you through recovery.
Diseree bikes 20 miles a day. She enjoys hiking and being in the outdoors. Also, she is currently the assistant manager for a local restaurant.
Diseree prefers hybrid or indica strains. Wedding Cake is her favorite hybrid strain.
Disclaimer:
The views and opinions expressed in the “In the Weeds” podcast are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of KindlyMD or UtahMarijuana.org. The personal experiences shared in these episodes are for informational purposes only and should not be interpreted as medical advice or endorsements of any specific treatment.
KindlyMD does not treat substance use disorder (SUD) and does not advocate for or promote the use of cannabis as a treatment for opioid use disorder (OUD) or any other form of addiction. Any discussion of cannabis in relation to addiction recovery reflects the perspectives of the individuals featured in the podcast and should not be considered a substitute for professional medical advice. If you are struggling with addiction or seeking treatment options, please consult a qualified healthcare provider.
Who is Desiree Hennessy? [0:58]
Looking back to 2016, when Proposition 2 failed [6:18]
Positive aspects of the current Prop 2 law [13:49]
How were the qualifications for Medical Marijuana use determined? [15:31]
How is Utah Patients Coalition providing support to the Compassionate Use Board? [18:35]
How is Utah Patients Coalition funded? [23:33]
How is COVID-19 affecting Utah Patients Coalition? [26:45]
Desiree’s experience with A Perfect Earth Modern Apothecary [33:40]
How can you get involved with Utah Patients Coalition? [37:58]
UtahMarijuana.org
IAmSaltLake.com
Utah in the Weeds Podcast
Utah Patients Coalition
Utah Patients Coalition Facebook Page
Perfect Earth Modern Apothecary
Desiree Hennessy is the director of Utah Patients Coalition. She is a leader in the cannabis space and an advocate for patients and Medical Cannabis in Utah. Utah Patients Coalition is the organization that created and helped pass Proposition 2 (DJ Schanz was the director during that time). The focus of the organization is making it easy for patients to get access to Medical Marijuana and helping them navigate the new laws in Utah.
Desiree got involved in this cause because her son has extreme special needs, particularly experiencing nerve pain. Pain medications and nerve blockers were not helping. Her journey began as an advocate for her family, then recognizing that there are many others who could benefit from Medical Marijuana.
When the initiative started, it had a 78% approval rating. It appeared that the law would pass. However, a Drug Safe Utah campaign was launched in August of that year. With millions of dollars in funding, the campaign was able to charge $6 a signature, compared to the $2 a signature that Utah Patients Coalition was able to charge. The LDS Church, the Utah Medical Association, and about 20 senators and representatives all signed the petition against Proposition 2, which eventually caused it to fail.
By August, Utah Patients Coalition had no money and the approval rating dropped to 48%.
With the current law, having medical providers involved legitimizes it with the medical community. If medical providers were not involved and you could just go to the dispensary on your own, then the law is delegitimized for all medical providers.
The Utah Patients Coalition looked at what was successful for other states. They were also able to get significant wins with the current law.
For example, Utah is the first state to have autism as a qualifying condition. Also, Utah’s pain qualification is easier than other states. For most states, you have to have documentation of pain and you need to have tried other medications. However, in Utah, if you have pain longer than two weeks and nothing else you have tried has helped, then you meet the pain qualification.
Also, for cancer, some states require you to take six months of MRIs and prove to them that you still have your cancer. Utah does not require that.
Anxiety and autoimmune disorders were difficult to pass. The concern was that both conditions are widespread and would be difficult to control who is using Medical Marijuana.
Bipolar disorder was also left off due to doctors claiming that it could cause schizophrenia for some bipolar patients.
Utah Patients Coalition is still pushing for a law without a conditions list.
Desiree actually assisted in reviewing the doctors who were added to the board. She is concerned that the board may be another hurdle and not an ally for patients. If patients are turned down by the board, she recommends letting Utah Patients Coalition know. They can use that data to determine if the board is indeed an ally for patients.
Utah Patients Coalition is currently not generating income. A decision was made to not take money from patients. Also, they are committed to not taking money from the marijuana industry.
They are looking into donors who can help pay for expenses, like maintaining the website. But, they want it to be very clear always that they work for patients. Their main goal is getting patients access to Medical Marijuana.
She feels like it couldn’t have happened at a better time. Legislation sessions were already shut down and most of that work had been completed by the coalition. Also, this gives them time before the summer ramps up for doctors to do prep work.
They have a dispensary in Logan and then they’re going to open up one in Weber County. The location in Weber County should hopefully be opening May first. She was able to visit the pharmacy and do a little Facebook Live. They were able to give her a visitor pass because she’s not a legal patient.
She says they had a good deal on disposable cannabis pens. She heard a lot of patients got those and like those. She was there for a couple of hours watching and talking to the pharmacists and saw a steady stream of patients all day long.
She was worried about Cache Valley having enough demand, but the team at Perfect Earth Modern Apothecary said that they’re getting about 50 patients a day.
They always need volunteers and they have a Facebook page that you can follow for more information.
Who is Mario Enriquez? [2:11]
What was Mario’s first medical marijuana purchase? [3:18]
What did the moment feel like when Mario made his purchase? [4:14]
How Mario go introduced to cannabis [5:49]
Mario’s favorite ways to consume cannabis [10:06]
How the coronavirus pandemic has affected Mario’s day-to-day marijuana usage [12:54]
What is Mario’s next project? [17:05]
Is Tim still seeing new patients? [19:33]
Mario’s plan for 4/20 [25:26]
How you can learn more about Utah Patients for Cannabis and Natural Choices [29:48]
Utah Patients for Cannabis and Natural Choices
Mario is a medical marijuana patient and the president of Utah Patients for Cannabis and Natural Choices. His group helped spearhead the proposition to collect signatures alongside with the Utah Patients Coalition. Also, he was the first patient in the state of Utah to buy medical cannabis.
The first day cannabis flower was not available. He decided to purchase cartridges of sativa and indigo.
Because of his past experience with dispensaries, the purchase felt normal. However, when he walked out the door he realized that he was the first person to purchase medical marijuana in Utah. He received a huge reaction of tears, hugs, and happiness from everyone.
Mario started as a recreational user. However, he was diagnosed with a rare condition called ocular albinism at a young age. He also has nystagmus, which makes his eyes move back and forth all the time. That causes constant eye pain all the time.
Along with helping to medicate his pain without pills, cannabis helped him during school stay calm and focused.
Dry flower vaporizers are what’s allowed with Utah law. However, he also enjoys smoking it because you can better experience the flavors.
The pandemic has not changed Mario’s day-to-day usage. In fact, with the increased anxiety that comes with the pandemic, Mario has continued to use medical cannabis to medicate.
Note: anxiety is not a qualifying condition for medical marijuana in Utah.
Although medical marijuana is legal in Utah, Mario feels his work is not done. There are still conditions he feels needs to be added to the list of qualifying conditions. Also, patients would like to be able to ignite medical marijuana and consume it in a way that is comfortable for them.
His group is still working with legislators to improve the state of medical marijuana in the future.
Yes, Tim is still seeing new patients. With the coronavirus pandemic, his clinic is practicing social distancing. However, Utah law still requires face-to-face visits so they are making accommodations to do this, including visiting the elderly at their homes.
To schedule an appointment, you can go to https://utahmarijuana.org/clinic or call (801) 851-5554.
Mario was able to get a job working at Perfect Earth Pharmacy in South Ogden. He will be helping out the Logan store on 4/20.
Visit their Facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/UPCNC/.
Blake’s Backstory [1:36]
What Blake Discovered When Testing CBD Products [3:24]
How Blake became the Chief Scientific Officer for Zion Pharmaceuticals [5:33]
What does Blake think about the Medical Marijuana rollout? [9:15]
Zion’s process for producing medicines [12:41]
Where will Zion’s products be sold? [13:35]
What’s the path for recreational marijuana becoming legal in Utah? [20:03]
Prior to Prop 2, did Blake believe a time would come when Medical Marijuana would be available in Utah? [21:59]
Blake’s goal with Zion Pharmaceuticals [24:21]
What is the best blend of cannabinoids for PTSD? [27:47]
What is the best blend of cannabinoids for pain? [28:51]
What is the best blend of cannabinoids for nausea? [29:57]
How can someone learn more about cannabinoids? [30:15]
Blake Smith is the Chief Scientific Officer for Zion Pharmaceuticals. Zion Pharmaceuticals has a cultivation license and they should be ready to grow within the next two to three weeks.
They also have one of the processing licenses, so they can do everything from extraction all the way to making the final product.
Blake’s area of expertise is isolating specific cannabinoids for therapeutic purposes. He worked in pharmaceuticals as a bioanalytical chemist for a long period of time. He then left that and went into academia.
During that period of time, his daughter was diagnosed with a genetic condition that gives her seizures. A parent’s alliance he belonged to at the time suggested CBD products might be able to help her.
Instead of jumping right into providing her with CBD, he tested a number of products in his lab.
What he found was most CBD products were not what the company claimed them to be. CBD companies will tell you what the potency or cannabinoid content is. They’ll say that their products are pesticide free.
However, Blake’s test discovered pesticide and metal residues. He also found the potencies were not consistent with what CBD companies claimed them to be.
It was the wild West. Not all products were bad, but there were a lot of products that were not what they claimed.
These were CBD products found in dispensaries and CBD stores, not on the black market.
Blake got involved with a group that was growing hundreds of acres of industrial hemp. Specifically, he helped identify some issues they were having during that farming process.
Later, they asked him to join as their Chief Scientific Officer.
Their team extracted and processed thousands of pounds, if not tens of thousands of pounds of industrial hemp.
When the legalization of Medical Cannabis was announced in Utah, Zion Pharmaceuticals decided they wanted to shift into making actual medicine. For example, a cancer patient with nausea could be given cannabis to make them feel high. However, the team wanted to start addressing the nausea directly. The cannabinoid Delta-8-THC, which also stimulates dopamine, could be used to help with nausea.
By adding dosing parameters around the medicine, this would become something that doctors should be interested in.
Blake thinks Utah is moving in the direction of what people wanted. Most of his experience with doctors has been fairly positive, but they have no idea how to write a prescription. This is why people like Tim are needed to help during this rollout.
Utah allows for industrial hemp products. The reason why this becomes really, really important to us is because if you look at most marijuana strains, the biggest difference is the total amount of THC and terpene profile. That would be like trying to treat every disease known to man with ibuprofen and Benadryl.
Hemp has high concentrations of cannabinoids, such as CBG and CBB, which have been shown to help with neuropathy.
Utah is pretty forward thinking in allowing industrial hemp, knowing that there is no difference between industrial hemp and marijuana except for the THC content. Zion is focusing on providing specific cannabinoids for very specific therapeutic purposes.
Zion grows marijuana, then extracts it just like they would anything else. They also have a hemp extraction process, so that they can find very interesting genetics on the hemp side, extract those, isolate their cannabinoids, and supplement them into the medical market.
Zion’s products are available to any pharmacy that wishes to sell them. Zion is not a pharmacy, so they rely on pharmacies to buy their products.
Some pharmacies want to only carry their own products. However, if pharmacies are really doing this for the benefit of patients, they’d want to offer a variety of products for a variety of conditions.
Also, people who are experienced users run into “walls,” where they don’t get the same effect every single time from their product. For example, avid smokers of marijuana like to try different things. If a pharmacy is only carrying their own products, they are denying the patient the ability to choose from a wide variety of products that they might help them.
Blake believes that Utah will move to recreational when we have an extremely solid medical program first to show that we’re responsible about how we think about medicines. There is never going to be a quick transition. He believes that if we don’t do this responsibly, Utah will add even more restrictions rather than opening things up.
Yes. While at University of Utah, he talked with lots of doctors. He says most doctors were pretty open to medications that help their patients as long as it meets the criteria of (1) they know it is safe, (2) they know the efficacy, and (3) they know what the dosing should be.
Blake’s goal is to determine what specific cannabinoids do and see how they can use them for therapeutic purposes. They are following a good process and they are focusing on safer extraction methods.
A combination of CBC, CBN, THC, Delta-8, and Delta-9. A combination between Delta-9 and Delta-8. He would then add CBN to help relax. CBC will help activate the endocannabinoid receptors.
Blake recommends low levels of THC and Delta-9. He would also add CBG, CBD.
Blake recommends Delta-8, CBD, and CBG.
There is lots of information out there. Some are good and some are bad. But there are scientific papers.
Zion is also performing studies on cannabinoids.
Who is Narith Panh? (00:00)
What does the community mean to Dragonfly Wellness? (03:56)
What experience does Narith have with marijuana outside of his work with Dragonfly Wellness? (06:55)
What are Narith’s favorite ideas for the Utah marijuana system? (07:40)
What kind of products can we expect from Dragonfly? (15:33)
What problems does Narith see with the Utah system from the perspective of a pharmacy? (22:34)
What are Narith’s suggestions for people who want to get medical marijuana in Utah? (29:42)
How do I get in touch with Narith, Dragonfly Wellness, or the podcast in general? (46:15)
UtahMarijuana.org
DragonflyUT.com
Utah in the Weeds Podcast
Narith Panh is the son of Cambodian refugees who came to America. He’s also passionate about cannabis, and the Chief Strategy Officer at Dragonfly Pharmacy. Dragonfly has been a hot topic of discussion on Utah in the Weeds for weeks, so it only made sense to bring him on to chat about the current medical marijuana situation in Utah.
The short answer: everything. Narith, and many members of his team, are immigrants who are first-generation Americans. The Utah community welcomed their family with open arms, and now they want to give back.
Narith recalls patients who cried tears of joy after getting their medical cannabis and witnessing for themselves just how impactful and beneficial it can be for them. That, he says, is what it’s all about.
Since his girlfriend’s family lives in California, he often finds himself traveling back and forth. As such, he has experience in the recreational market in California, which has given him an insight to the pros and cons of their system. He uses this knowledge to provide the best possible service for patients from Dragonfly and, indeed, from the Utah medical marijuana system as well.
Narith is passionate about cannabis. He wants to expand on some of the things that can make Utah the best medical marijuana state in the country. One of the things he cites as a huge fundamental advantage of the Utah system is the ability for producers to bring CBD into the cannabis ecosystem – essentially allowing products that are a mixture of CBD and THC. These two compounds are synergistic and work together to maximize the user’s experience.
However, in many states, producers are forbidden to mix the two chemicals. But not in Utah. This brings down the end user’s cost significantly, since the license for producing CBD costs $2,000 per year, whereas the license for producing THC is $100,000 per year. Being able to couple CBD products with THC brings costs down significantly across the board, which means a smaller financial burden on patients.
Another key concept that Narith is interested in is the seed-to-sale tracking method the state is mandating for all sellers of marijuana. This system requires that each marijuana plant is tagged when it reaches 8 inches tall. Then, once it’s processed into flower, it’s tagged again. Then again as an oil, and so on until it is sold as a finished product (for example, a THC cartridge).
The reason this is so important can be highlighted with the problem in 2019 with black-market THC cartridges causing severe illness in dozens of people. As it turns out, almost all of those bad vape cartridges were traced back to one source, but it took months of hard investigative work. With the seed-to-sale system in Utah, a bad cartridge could be traced back to its origin, production halted, and a recall issued in a matter of hours.
First, let’s clear up one thing. Dragonfly Wellness is not a dispensary. In fact, Narith personally hates the word “budtender”, because it implies a more casual “slinging” of product, rather than a true medical consultation coupled with the sale of marijuana.
Dragonfly Wellness is a pharmacy. It specializes not only in selling marijuana products and devices, but also in medical advice, dosing, and patient care when it comes to cannabis.
Another couple of misconceptions to clear up: First, getting marijuana flower will not be a problem. It’s the most popular form of marijuana by a considerable margin, and will be available. However, an open flame cannot be used to smoke the flower. Instead, it will have to be puffed through what’s called a dry herb vaporizer. Dragonfly offers a wide selection of dry herb vaporizers, from entry-level handheld puffers to state-of-the-art heavy-use systems like The Volcano.
The other misconception to be cleared: No, marijuana flower will not be sold in blister packs. State legislators were considering forcing producers to package flower in blister packs (similar to how you might find over-the-counter pills) with the safety of patients in mind, but they found it would have only been a burden on both patients and businesses, with no added safety to users. So, thankfully, they scrapped it. Your flower will come how it’s supposed to: in jars.
As for the products that Dragonfly will be offering, expect to find a dazzling array of marijuana products. Everything from an already highly-recommended 25-to-1 tincture (that is, 25 mg CBD to 1 mg THC), to capsules, to edible gelatin cubes, to topicals, to the almighty flower, is available. They also have a wide selection of consumption devices so you can get the marijuana experience you need.
Dragonfly Wellness also has something you can’t get in a typical dispensary: a medical consultation. When you enter Dragonfly Wellness, you’ll have a meeting with a pharmacist, either out on the floor or in a private office. He or she will walk you through marijuana use and help you pick out the proper dosage and consumption method. The goal here is to get patients the most effective cannabis experience possible, without going overboard.
Narith’s biggest issue, currently, is all of the confusion and misinformation. Dragonfly has to turn away dozens of people every day who come into the pharmacy thinking that a letter of recommendation from their doctor is enough. It’s not. In order to gain access to the pharmacy, you need a valid medical marijuana card, which you can only get through an evaluation by a licensed medical professional (such as Tim Pickett).
It’s no one’s fault that this misinformation was spread. After all, this entire medical marijuana system was built from nothing in, really, under a year. In governmental terms, that’s lightspeed. It’s expected that there will be a few hiccups. Thankfully, Dragonfly is doing all they can in order to accommodate as many people as possible. In fact, they’re risking it all for their patients.
Last week, Tim touched on the fact that Dragonfly was taking on a huge risk by opening so early in the rollout. Narith explains that there is a very direct reason for that. It wasn’t them jumping the gun. On the contrary, they understood the risks and knew that the first few weeks would be rocky. But they could not, he says, delay the care their patients so desperately need in order to protect their own financial interests.
Is it tough right now? Definitely. Narith makes it clear, however, that seeing the tears of joy roll down the first-ever Utah medical marijuana customer’s face makes it all worth it. That’s what Dragonfly Wellness is all about.
House Bill 425 made it possible for Dragonfly Wellness to take letters of recommendation for cannabis use from doctors in lieu of a medical cannabis card while the card system suffers from logjam. At the time of this podcast, HB425 had not yet been passed.
At the time of this podcast’s recording, Narith says that patients should not wait until House Bill 425 clears. This is because, even if it passes with no problems, it will still take some time for the change to be implemented. That seed-to-sale tracking system that was mandated by the government does not yet have the ability to process, verify, and approve letters of recommendation. Software changes will have to be made, which will take time.
So, Narith says, patients should continue to go through the current medical card system with a doctor’s evaluation. That would ultimately be the fastest way to get their cannabis.
Narith also makes a point to note that Dragonfly Wellness is not trying to rock the boat. As the first cannabis pharmacy opened in Utah, it’s all eyes on them. They will be strictly adhering to every law that applies.
For example, Dragonfly is not allowed to make suggestions about which doctors to use. Dragonfly is also not allowed to sell merchandise or advertise on the radio. In fact, Narith would not have been allowed to appear on a video version of this podcast, because he was wearing his Dragonfly Wellness uniform. Doing so would, under state law, constitute an advertisement.
Dragonfly won’t toe the line on any of these rules. They’re the only cannabis pharmacy in the state, so they’re not going to risk forsaking their patients by getting shut down.
How to get in touch with Narith and Dragonfly Wellness:
Go to DragonflyUT.com and subscribe to the newsletter for the fastest information
Follow Dragonfly Wellness on Facebook and Instagram
How to get in touch with the podcast:
Call Tim’s office at 801-851-5554
Visit Tim’s clinic websites at UtahTherapeutic.clinic and UtahMarijuana.org
Email the show directly at UtahInTheWeeds@gmail.com
Who is David Sutherland? (00:00)
What was David’s monthly drug routine like after his car accident and rehab? (04:00)
How did David make the journey from all those drugs to solely cannabis? (06:00)
What does David envision his life would be like without cannabis? (13:20)
What would David say to patients who are afraid of getting off painkillers? (15:37)
How does Chris compare his largely non-medical experience with cannabis to David’s medical one? (18:00)
As one of the first people ever to use it, what are David’s thoughts on Utah’s medical marijuana system? (22:10)
For Tim, how has the system been on the provider side? (31:48)
How can I get in touch with Tim and the Utah in the Weeds podcast? (36:05)
UtahMarijuana.org
DragonflyUT.com
Utah in the Weeds Podcast
David Sutherland is the first-ever cardholder for medical marijuana in Utah. He comes on the show today to share his story with cannabis, and his experience with the new medical marijuana system in Utah.
David works for the state doing IT work. Eight years ago, he was involved in a car accident that left him with a concussion, burst vertebrae, a broken sternum, and nine shattered ribs. After two years of intense physical therapy and rehabilitation, he was left with permanent chronic back pain and ongoing muscle spasms.
David had to use a back brace for months. He went through approximately 200 vicodin per month, and was on a daily dose of gabapentin, Celebrex, and a slew of antidepressants, anti-anxiety medications, and muscle relaxers.
David had obviously heard of the medical benefits of marijuana before. He noted feeling primarily excited about getting off of painkillers, but also nervous. For him, and indeed for many in his situation, a life without painkillers can seem daunting, or even impossible.
He was worried about how his family might react when it comes to his cannabis use. And of course, because he started his cannabis use before medical marijuana was legal in Utah, and therefore was in violation of federal and state law, he was apprehensive about conflicts with law enforcement.
David got his start in treating his pain with cannabis about four years ago, when he went on a camping trip to Colorado. Despite his tragic accident, it seemed as though luck had not yet abandoned him. He won a Powerball lottery to the tune of about $10,000, and decided to cash it in and spend some at one of Colorado’s recreational dispensaries.
That seemed to do the trick, and David spent the next 8 to 10 months weaning himself off of the prescription drugs in favor of a cannabis-based solution.
It’s a good thing he did, too, because as soon as his doctors discovered that he had been using marijuana, they cut him off of the prescriptions. Believe it or not, that’s the standard move for someone who wants to experiment with cannabis as a pain treatment.
Tim Pickett touches on just how harmful this philosophy can be when trying to find the best treatment for someone with chronic pain. For a patient, going cold turkey from opioids and antidepressants can be a death sentence.
The reason many doctors do this, he explains, boils down to two key factors. First, many doctors are still uneducated about the benefits and science behind marijuana. Second, since many doctors are simultaneously medical professionals and business owners, they want to limit their liability when it comes to illegal drug use.
The solution, then, is both education and a legal framework that allows patients to decide whether or not they want to try marijuana to manage their pain, and to provide a safe context for which they can switch from opioids to cannabis. The latter is now in the works in Utah.
Before his transition to cannabis, David was depressed and suicidal. Day-to-day life was not only physically grueling, but mentally exhausting as well.
Now, with cannabis, David feels more clear-headed, energized, and calm than he ever was on traditional medications.
The prevalence of stories like these speaks to the undeniable benefit that marijuana can have for those with chronic pain.
David would speak to his own experience. Many of those who are afraid of getting off of painkillers are really just afraid of the pain itself. David would reassure them that cannabis can not only be a perfect substitute for painkillers, but that it can actually be better at managing pain than opioids.
David argues, and Tim agrees, that while painkillers lessen the pain, they don’t eliminate it. It’s always there. Cannabis, similarly, lessens the pain, but it also takes your mind off it. David compares it to putting the pain in a box and placing it to the side. It’s not like cannabis completely erases pain; nothing does. Rather, it prevents the pain from bothering you.
While Chris, having not been in an accident as severe as David’s, can’t really comprehend what it’s like to go through the kind of physical pain, rehab, and drug use that characterizes a lot of medical marijuana journeys, he can certainly see the remarkable impact it has on those with chronic pain.
As someone who has used and enjoyed recreational marijuana, Chris wants to see less stringent requirements on who can get access to it. He points out that it’s the patient, not the doctor or the government, who experiences the pain. Therefore, it should be the common philosophy that the patient has the right to say whether or not they want to try cannabis.
He also explains that, contrary to the way some medical professionals act, using marijuana to treat pain is not a new concept by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, medical marijuana has been used in parts of the United States for decades. We should use this fact, as well as more education, to remove the stigma around marijuana, so more people can experience the benefits that David has.
David’s outlook on the medical marijuana system in Utah is very optimistic. As an example, he delves into his experience at the Dragonfly marijuana pharmacy:
Despite official dosing recommendations made by Tim, which should have enabled David to skip this step, the pharmacist still elected to have a meeting with David to discuss his dosing and delivery method. David explains that while this wasn’t necessary for him, dosing advice could be essential to someone with less experience in marijuana use, and whose doctor did not give dosing advice.
The meeting, he said, consisted of the pharmacist asking about his prior marijuana use, listening to David’s needs, and taking his words and thoughts into account.
David did mention that there was a rather startling lack of measurement on some of the tinctures, such that the buyer would have to calculate for themselves how many droppers to take in order to get the correct dose. This could be particularly difficult for those preoccupied with pain and illness, or the elderly.
He describes the prices as reasonable, and maybe even cheaper than Colorado recreational products. The podcasters attribute some of this to the fact that, in Utah, medical marijuana products are not taxed. Instead, there’s a $3 transaction fee on purchases of any size, whether you’re buying $5 worth of product or $5,000.
David expresses his gratitude that the Utah system appears to be patient focused, rather than profit focused. This ensures that patients truly get the product they need at a reasonable price.
Tim’s phones have been ringing nonstop. There was clearly a lot of pent up demand for medical marijuana in Utah, and we’re now seeing a massive influx of inquiries about it. There are over 100 phone calls a day at Tim’s comparatively small practice, so it’s no surprise that the system is a little backed up.
There are tons of applications waiting to be approved. Compared to the number of people who want them, medical marijuana card issuing has been extremely slow.
Tim points out that this represents a problem for Dragonfly pharmacy, which is ultimately a business. They could have waited a few weeks before opening, but chose to get in early. Now that the system is backed up, business is only trickling in. It’ll likely be a few weeks or months before business at Dragonfly is in full swing, which means they could go under before they even really get started.
Despite the issues with the system, the podcasters all agree that the government should stick with the current system and wait for the logjam to break up before making any confusing adjustments.
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