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What to Expect in This Episode

Like so many others, Toby Larson first used cannabis in high school. [03:30] It wasn’t until California began investigating Medical Cannabis that he even considered the drug for medicinal purposes. He resisted getting a medical card, even when it was made available, because he was unsure whether he would have any rights stripped away as a result. Those were the early days of Medical Cannabis in California.

As an athlete, Larson found that using cannabis helped him to focus more on his performance. [09:36] He didn’t feel the need to satisfy the urge to stop due to tired muscles or burning lungs. These days, he recommends Medical Cannabis to MMA fighters and other athletes he works with. It helps them deal with the pain and get the necessary sleep to be competitive.

This particular conversation took two fascinating turns. The first was the idea of using cannabis as a way to make for a better life. [16:05] Rather than looking at cannabis exclusively from a disease-treatment standpoint, perhaps it should be viewed as a way to enhance specific areas of life – like creativity, for example.

The other fascinating turn involved utilizing Medical Cannabis to combat aging. [29:51] The idea is to use cannabis to enhance performance, thus combating the effects of aging. In other words, live as healthy a life as possible by staying active so that you live your best life right up until the moment your body says ‘enough’.

Discussing cannabis from an athletic performance standpoint shines a whole new light on the Medical Cannabis concept. If you are into high-octane sports and enhancing your athletic performance, you absolutely cannot miss this podcast. Tim and Chris discuss a great topic with a guy who has real-world experience helping himself and other athletes maximize their performance.

Resources in This Episode

Podcast Transcript

Chris Holifield:

Let’s welcome everybody out today to episode 59 of Utah in the Weeds. My name’s Chris Holifield.

Tim Pickett:

And I’m Tim Pickett, a medical cannabis expert here in Utah. I’m excited because this conversation we had today, Chris, was different than a lot of what we’ve done before.

Chris Holifield:

It was with Toby Larson. He’s a medical cannabis patient, as well as an athlete and mental coach. I mean, this guy has worked with MMA fighters and all different kinds of people on using cannabis to improve your athletic performance. I thought it was a great conversation.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. A lot of the conversation revolved also around older adult users and supplementing cannabis to help mobility as you age, like using cannabis as a supplement, using THC as a supplement. It’s interesting. Anybody who’s interested in cannabis and different ways to use it, this is a great conversation to listen through.

Chris Holifield:

Yeah. I know you were just sitting at the edge of your seat because I know you’re all into the olympic weightlifting, Tim. So you were just like, “I got to absorb everything this guy has to say.”

Tim Pickett:

I know. I think I was a little bit more engaged than on average, I will say. I’m interested in this for sure. What else is going on, Chris?

Chris Holifield:

Hey, next Wednesday, the 26th, in Ogden, at WB’s Eatery, it’s a weed social, man, for people, for cannabis users and weedheads and potheads and everybody to just come and hang out, man, I guess.

Tim Pickett:

It’s the 26th at 5:30 p.m. You can purchase tickets to it at WBsEatery.com. Check these guys out. This is going to be a good way for the community to get together and talk about what’s happening in the cannabis scene. It’s sponsored by Salt Baked City, who are good friends of ours. And we are going to be there, Chris. We’re going to be there podcasting, recording. So if you want to say a few words on the podcast, come up.

Chris Holifield:

Yeah. Let us know. You can even reach out to Tim or myself before Wednesday. Let us know. That way we can keep an eye out for you, or an ear out for you or whatnot. But, yeah, come on up. Do we have the website? Is it just WBsEatery.com or something like that?

Tim Pickett:

Correct. WBsEatery.com. Make sure you’re subscribed in all the channels. You can read the podcast summaries. You can find us on UtahMarijuana.org/podcast. You can reach out to Chris or I if you know somebody or you want to come on as a guest with the podcast. We’re getting into summer. The events are happening.

Chris Holifield:

I know I’m excited, getting out and meeting with people in public. The people are getting out and about. The sun is shining. Anything going on with you guys? Utah Therapeutic, UtahMarijuana.org? Anything that we need to talk about?

Tim Pickett:

Watch for pharmacy openings in Southern Utah towards the end of the month, first of next month. We’ll have more on our website, on our social. We’ll be bringing people on, on the podcast. That’s, I think, the biggest news in the industry right now.

Chris Holifield:

Very cool. All right. Well, let’s get into that conversation with Toby Larson. This is a good one, you guys. Enjoy it.

—————-

Chris Holifield:

Let’s start with even what got you introduced to cannabis. I mean, let’s go back to very beginning, the first time Toby used it. I mean, were you a little Toby, or were you a big Toby?

Toby Larson:

The first time I used was my last week of my senior year in high school. Knowing what I know now, I will say that I would’ve waited until I was 24. I believe the brain science does speak to fact that we should probably wait until we’re about 24 to start using. Make sure the frontal lobe has finished growing. Any time you use … I believe the term is androgynous chemicals to affect you, you want to avoid that during times that you’re growing.

Tim Pickett:

Just in general, right?

Toby Larson:

Yeah.

Tim Pickett:

In general. We go back to this sometimes. We should just be eating salads, fruits and vegetables, exercising until we’re … Well, that’s forever. You don’t want to introduce anything foreign. And with cannabis, I would … Yeah. It’s the same. It’s a strong drug.

Toby Larson:

Yeah. It’s worth waiting until we’re on the decline. But, that said, I was 18. It was my senior year in high school, finishing up. I had been pretty much the most straight narrow guy up until then and just decided, hey, I need to live life before I go off to college. So first purchase was a quarter. Me and my buddy-

Tim Pickett:

Oh, wow. You went big.

Toby Larson:

Yeah. Pretty much consumed about half of it that night.

Chris Holifield:

What? Your first time?

Toby Larson:

Yeah.

Chris Holifield:

That much.

Toby Larson:

The best story I have from that was … And it was two of us. He was a pretty heavy user, so I might’ve had a bowl, and he might’ve had the rest of the eighth. I don’t know how fairly divided it was. But we ended up going to Taco Bell. Long story short, I tell this Steven Wright comedy skit apparently to five people at the Taco Bell. They give us a free 10-pack of tacos and tell us to get out.

Chris Holifield:

Get out of here.

Toby Larson:

Last I remember was … Yeah. That was the first time. And then it was kind of a while since then.

Chris Holifield:

Was that here in Utah, or where was-

Toby Larson:

No, that was actually in Colorado. I grew up in Estes Park. So that was mountain weed, grown in Estes, probably. I bought it from a biker up there. It was kind of funny. It was a whole lot different than it is now. But, anyway, so then, go off to college, go to Kansas. Have no hookups or anything there. Really didn’t use it at all until we moved out to California. When I arrived in California, they were just beginning the process of legalization, starting to talk about that for medicinal purposes. It would show up at parties here and there, but it wasn’t really that prevalent. It’s interesting thinking now about how back then, it was so hard to find. You’d have a supply or a hookup, and then if you lost that person, it’s the worst. It might be months-

Chris Holifield:

It’s the worst. Yeah.

Toby Larson:

… before you find somebody else.

Tim Pickett:

So weird because in high schools and colleges, I would imagine that’s easy. It was easy then to find the hookup.

Chris Holifield:

I think depending on who you are, though. I mean, I never have found hookups easy.

Tim Pickett:

Don’t you think everybody knows that guy? Right? I know of the guy-

Toby Larson:

When you’re out of college, though, and you’re-

Tim Pickett:

Exactly.

Toby Larson:

… living in a different city.

Tim Pickett:

And you’re an adult. You’re working. Now it’s hard because it’s not like you’re going to ask around at work. Right?

Toby Larson:

Honestly, back then, it was probably easier to find cocaine than it was marijuana, at work. Granted, I was working in commercial real estate.

Tim Pickett:

Maybe that’s why.

Chris Holifield:

The ’90s, right?

Toby Larson:

Yeah.

Chris Holifield:

Yeah, the ’90s.

Tim Pickett:

The ’90s. That’s crazy.

Chris Holifield:

So what was your thoughts when you heard medical marijuana? Because, I mean, obviously, the first time you used it you probably weren’t familiar with using it as a medicinal thing, right?

Toby Larson:

Correct.

Chris Holifield:

What was your thoughts you heard the term?

Toby Larson:

Yeah. Actually, one of the suppliers I had when I was working in tech in San Francisco, he had terminal cancer, and he was able to grow 10 plants of his own. Because of his cancer, he was unable to work. So he subsidized himself through the plants that he was legally able to grow. It was a friend of a friend. It was kind of part, I guess, early day GoFundMe for his treatment, and part, hey, here’s a thank you gift for you helping us out. So that was how that was.

Toby Larson:

When he passed, then it was probably another four years before recreational marijuana started. During that time, I just … If somebody offered it to me, I would enjoy it with them. But if it wasn’t around, it wasn’t around. I had reservations at that time of getting a medical license. I still felt the stigma and the concern about what’s going to happen if people know that I have a legal marijuana license. What other rights are they going to potentially strip away from me?

Toby Larson:

I think back, and one of the things in California that’s interesting, if you had a medical license, you could not own a gun. I don’t know if Utah ever discussed that as part of the rule, but it was that type of thing that made you wonder, will I not be able to have a driver’s license down the road? What else are they going to say is limiting? So, for me, it was just that, well, let’s see what happens for a little while. But then, once it became recreationally available, then, of course, it’s [crosstalk 00:09:13]-

Chris Holifield:

Like okay, whatever. Who cares?

Toby Larson:

Yeah. The variety and quality of products made it the type of thing that was worth checking out. So I originally used it recreationally for recreational purposes. As time went on, I started realizing benefits when I used it in various performance settings.

Chris Holifield:

What kind of benefits were you seeing?

Toby Larson:

One of the biggest things I find is my ability to turn off the part of my brain that wants me to stop. That inner wimp that’s telling you your lungs are burning, your legs are burning. Slow down. You don’t need to push through. It allows you to hyper focus so that you can really stay focused on the goal, on the technique, on whatever it is you’re working towards, and be less concerned about satisfying whatever current state you’re feeling.

Chris Holifield:

Yeah. That’s a good way to put it. Less concerned about satisfying the current negativity that you’re feeling right now. But, at the same time, hyper focusing really on the present, because it turns off short-term memory. It changes your perception of time. What sports were you noticing this with?

Toby Larson:

Yeah. With me, I do action sport personally. But I also work with quite a few mixed martial artists, pro MMA fighters. And, for them, it’s necessary for a few reasons. One is the training for that sport is absolutely brutal. You are getting kicked and punched daily, and that is what you do for a living. Throwing around, your joints manipulated. It’s rough. They are in pain every day, every night. The use of marijuana by them is certainly needed just in order to get to sleep so that you can recover.

Chris Holifield:

What got you into that? What got you into UFC fighting?

Toby Larson:

Kind of interesting. I actually was a high school teacher for a while. When I reached the end of my interest in teaching high school, I went back and became a kinesiologist. I got a master’s degree in kinesiology, and I’m finishing my doctorate in performance psychology right now. Just writing my dissertation at the moment. So almost done.

Toby Larson:

I had coached in high school. I absolutely love coaching far more teaching math and wanted to find a way to make that more of what I do on a regular basis. One of my athletes and students I coached track and football. One of them became a pro MMA fighter, and that basically opened the door to a whole bunch of other MMA fighters. In the field of sports psychology and coaching, it’s more connection for how you get in. Everybody has that story of here’s who I knew, and that’s how I got in the door.

Tim Pickett:

Yep. Here’s what I did. Here’s what I knew.

Toby Larson:

And here’s who helped me in.

Tim Pickett:

Because it’s not like you can go out and you’re applying for a sports psych job, and there’s going to be a lot of opportunity unless you know somebody in. That’s the thing.

Toby Larson:

That’s the most important thing. You have to know somebody. If a pro athlete’s going to work with you, you have to be bonafide by somebody. It’s really hard to convince somebody whose life is their performance that they should bring you on if they don’t know who you are.

Tim Pickett:

Is that the same with all coaching, you think? Or is it just-

Toby Larson:

I do.

Tim Pickett:

… psychology coaching? Because I feel like-

Toby Larson:

No, I think it’s-

Tim Pickett:

… personal coaching, soccer coaching … I deal with this with my family, right? You’re looking for somebody who you can get a referral to. If you look online, it’s just hard to get that.

Toby Larson:

Correct. And the higher up you are, the more your livelihood depends on how you do, and as that becomes more critical, the who around you is also critical. So knowing that the people that an athlete’s working with are actually good at what they do and can do what they say, also knowing that they’re not going to somehow try to take away from the athlete as well.

Tim Pickett:

Interesting. How does cannabis fit … Have you become the cannabis-friendly coach or the cannabis-friendly-

Toby Larson:

I’m not. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn’t say I’m not. I guess … How to phrase this? I don’t use cannabis in that part of my practice. I use cannabis solely in my understanding of skill acquisition and working with friends of mine that are also going in that route. The pro athlete route, there’s quite a few people that they’ll have around them, and I really focus on my specific role, which is the cognitive elements of performance and training.

Toby Larson:

I will talk to them about stuff I do cannabis-wise. But I don’t necessarily specifically instruct them on how to apply cannabis for their individual sport. Instead, that’s more on the adult side work that I do with more groups of adults, I guess I would say, as a grad student, I’m kind of trying to maximize my knowledge with. I don’t necessarily charge them, but they’re willing to take my advanced coaching and follow me down the hill and try stuff out. That’s really where it’s come more in play there.

Toby Larson:

Really, more of the idea of how do we actually get into that prime space so that we can just go have fun, and, really, as adult athletes, allow ourselves to push ourselves a little bit further? As a medical use, anti-aging should be considered as a real strong possibility for marijuana indication. A few reasons for that. One is there’s very little data out there on how marijuana affects anything performance-related.

Tim Pickett:

Oh, yeah. Except for you can’t do it, right?

Toby Larson:

Exactly.

Tim Pickett:

Just the rule.

Toby Larson:

What’s really interesting, even when we look at intoxicated driving, there is no evidence that marijuana has any effect on driving. Marijuana plus alcohol has a massive effect on driving.

Tim Pickett:

There actually is a little. I’ll point to a Canadian study. There’s a little study that they did with cannabis use, and they would call anybody who used over three days a week a chronic user. Then they gave them doses. They waited 10 hours, put them in a simulator. So you don’t make big mistakes. But you do cross the center line and miss your turn more. So there’s a little bit of effect that they can show. They correlate.

Toby Larson:

They correlate. They actually have pretty poor methodology in their study, and if you look at the meta-analyses on these, you’ll see that of all the studies, about 90% show no significant difference between a marijuana user and a non-marijuana user on a variety of performance tasks. It’s fascinating. The way we communicate science, the way that science is published, is a big problem.

Tim Pickett:

I would agree with that.

 

Toby Larson:

Marijuana has always been looked at from a disease model and rarely looked at from any other aspect.

Tim Pickett:

But you’re trying to get the conversation started as an enhancement model.

Toby Larson:

Correct.

Tim Pickett:

Essentially. How can we use this? How can we manipulate this plant to benefit society, not just to treat illness, because in medicine, we’ve said for generations, we have this wrong model. We wait until people get sick, and then we treat them. But you’re trying to take the other approach. Why not look at this as performance-enhancing substance, which a lot of people use it for-

Chris Holifield:

Like a pre-workout or something.

Tim Pickett:

Right? Like a pre-workout.

Toby Larson:

As nutrition.

Tim Pickett:

Well, think about the coders who use it to enhance their coding work or their focus. Or the artists, the creativity. We’re already talking about it in that sense. But we’re not talking about it from a physical or a true … What would you call that? A performance sense.

Toby Larson:

Yeah. From a performance … Or, just in general, how do we start using it as a nutrient? Maybe the reason CBD is so popular, maybe the reason that so many states are adopting legal medical marijuana, maybe the reason so much of the society is starting to regularly consume marijuana, I think we should change the language from use to consume. Maybe there’s a lot of nutrients that we get out of the cannabinoids.

Tim Pickett:

Or maybe there’s endocannabinoid deficiency syndrome, which the Society of Cannabis Clinicians wants to put on the diagnosis list.

Toby Larson:

I would say that live modern life with cannabis versus live modern life without. If without doesn’t work for you, maybe with probably does. I think there’s a lot of modern life, that if you think about cannabis, how does it counteract those effects? So if we think about the way that social media creates this rage and compounding negativity that just seems to build and build, that starts to get you really upset and worked out. Now you maybe go hit a dab. What happens then?

Tim Pickett:

You’re chill.

Toby Larson:

You’re coming back down, right? All that rage is gone. Now, if we do that broader scale, what happens societally? Maybe we talk as opposed to yell. And if we can talk, maybe we can hear. So, on a general level, I think there’s great things to do with it. But on a specific performance level, I think its biggest asset is with adult athletes, especially in the anti-aging realm. What I’ve found, when I started doing a lot of the research, one thing I’ve found that really is commonly found, if the rate of metabolic syndrome is significantly less with a massive effect size for what they call chronic, which I would call regular marijuana users.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. And we would call chronic users like three days a week or something. I mean, not really heroic pot smokers.

Toby Larson:

Correct.

Chris Holifield:

Chronic sounds so bad, though. That sounds-

Tim Pickett:

I know. It does sound so bad. But you’re-

Chris Holifield:

At least, to me. Yeah.

Tim Pickett:

Right. I use the term heroic. It’s the surgeon I used to work with. He would use the term heroic smoker, and that would mean like smoked cigarettes like crazy for years and years and years. That’s what I would call the guy who smokes three or four joints a day. That’s a heroic user. So move terms. But this three day a week performance enhancing … Yeah. I’ve read the average BMI, basal metabolic index, of marijuana users is lower than the population in general, meaning it doesn’t make you fat. You have to teach people.

Toby Larson:

In fact, it actually helps you lose weight. Since I moved to Utah, not only did I get my medical marijuana license, but, also, I’ve gone from 220 to … Currently I’m at about 168. That’s because I [crosstalk 00:20:47]-

Tim Pickett:

Just from marijuana use?

Toby Larson:

Well, from being active. Yes, from marijuana use, because that allows me to get up the next day and go as hard as I did the day before.

Tim Pickett:

So talk about that a little bit, though. When your physical performance … This is something I’m really into. And I haven’t talked a lot about it on the podcast, but I’m into physical training and performance, especially adult athlete type stuff. I think it’s super healthy for people. Very, very motivating. Lots of things happen in the brain, in the metabolism to make people better when they’re exercising. One of the things that is for sure, anti-aging, we want our lives to be a square. We want to go right up until the end and then just die. But in order to do that, you have to be mobile. You have to stay mobile. How does cannabis fit into that piece, then?

Toby Larson:

Multiple ways, and in fascinating ways, I’ve found. So, obviously, just the basic effect of pain relief at night is massive. Being able to get to sleep and stay asleep is huge for anybody doing anything performance related. That, I think, is generally accepted and thought of as a common effect that we’re going to see. But then, if we start thinking about some of the psychotropic effects, marijuana decreases anxiety. That’s super excellent from a performance standpoint, not only from an I’m actually competing today, maybe in a golf tournament, and I don’t want to shank my putt. Probably will help you there. Most of the PGA tour players are on beta blockers. That’s why they putt better than you or I do. They never feel their palms sweaty during a tournament. Beta blockers help you do that. Cannabis has a similar effect, maybe not as strong as beta blockers, and maybe better in a long-term situation than beta blockers, especially for a performance purpose.

Tim Pickett:

Interesting. I didn’t know that about golfers, but it makes sense that you would want to manipulate … I mean, this is how you make your living, so you’re going to do everything you can to manipulate your physiology to maximize your performance. I know looking at … Okay. Switch gears to long-distance athletics. So I ran for a while. I’ll be honest with you. I mean, cannabis, medical marijuana, whatever you want to call it, it is a super drug when it comes to long-distance running or long-distance biking. Well, you think about it. In fact, I’ve heard and never read that they’re trying to eliminate it from these 100-mile races because you can focus. Your perception of time is diminished. So here I got to go run five hours, and it doesn’t bother me because I don’t know what time it is. And I get dry mouth, so I stay hydrated and hungry the whole time. These are things that are need. It feels like the golden egg for long-distance, performance-enhancing-

Chris Holifield:

Wouldn’t it wear off after the first hour, though?

Tim Pickett:

Well, just take a little more.

Chris Holifield:

Yeah, that’s true. Just bring it along with you.

Toby Larson:

I’d say the other thing, once you get your brain really going and marching in that direction, it’s easier to keep it going that way. The effects can wear off, and I can be in the middle of a long-distance mountain bike ride going up, just continuously pounding up hills. But I’ve already taught myself to have my brain in that mindset for the first hour or whatever it is. It’s easier to stay there. It’s getting to there that’s very difficult for a lot of people. If we think about obesity and sedentary lifestyle epidemics going on in the US right now, the hardest aspect in exercise psychology is getting somebody to actually take that first step out the door, not getting them to run once they’re out the door. It’s just getting the shoes on and exiting the house. That’s the biggest barrier to exercise for most people.

Tim Pickett:

For sure, because then you take a week off, and it’s not the workout that’s hard. It’s getting your ass to the gym that’s hard. We used to do it in the swimming pool, and you would just say to yourself, “You know what? I’m just going to go down there and swim 200 yards or 200 meters, because I know if I get in the pool and I swim the 200, and I’ve just told myself I’m going to swim, and I’m going to get out, and I’m going to go to the locker room and go. Eh, I’ll stay and swim the workout. But you’ve just got to get started. I mean, is there any real studies that you could point to, or is there books you can go to?

Toby Larson:

There’s preliminary studies. One of the issues in the US is that research on marijuana medicinally has been very limited, very regulated. That’s a massive amount of research that’s been done in comparison to any other aspect of marijuana. So you already know how limited it is as a clinician, to understand, to even begin to look at how different terpenes might benefit different types of medical conditions. We can’t run control trials. We can’t do a lot of these powerful studies that would give us true knowledge because of the legality around that.

Tim Pickett:

And beyond. It’s not like you’re taking a bunch of chronic pain patients and running and doing a study like that. It’s putting a bunch of guys on treadmills, men and women on treadmills, and letting them use a little cannabis. That’s an entirely different study to do that would be even more restricted, right?

Toby Larson:

Correct. Our best indication, in all honesty, is looking at some of the research that’s come out of the University of Tel Aviv and some of the work that’s gone on in Israel, where they’ve actually had legal research going on for quite some time. One of the athletes I work with is an Israeli national, is from Tel Aviv. You can talk to a pharmacist there and be very specific about what’s going on and what you’re looking for, and they can give you a strain that is almost a perfect match for you. We’re quite a ways away from that right now here, I would argue.

Tim Pickett:

Here in Utah?

Toby Larson:

Yeah. Even in the US.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. We’re a long ways from that in the US, for sure. But their testing ability and their database in Israel is really some of the best in the world, if not the best in the world.

Toby Larson:

Absolutely. Yeah. 100%. It is used both in performance settings out there, or in performance settings for both athletics and non-athletic performance needs, in Israel, quite extensively. And it’s incredibly beneficial. They’ve found that. I understand now is a difficult time to be talking about that nation, but we’re talking about marijuana here, not about that. That’s why I bring it up, because that is an example of how, if we’re able to give our scientists a chance to really study this, we’re going to learn a lot more. We’re actually going to be able to learn how to maximize the benefits and decrease the drawbacks as well. Vaping versus smoking as one example. We already see that vaping’s a much better form of consumption for the lungs than combustion in general.

Tim Pickett:

Than combustion.

Toby Larson:

Because combustion of any plant is harmful, or the combusted material of any plant is harmful to humans, or the smoke from it. Doesn’t matter if it’s a forest fire that we’re all going to probably be breathing here in a couple months, unfortunately, or nicotine or tobacco or marijuana. Any type of smoke is bad to breathe, to inhale regularly. Whereas finding the isolates that we can consume in ways that are less damaging, if we can get the research on that, I think then the performance enhancement effects really start to come up even higher in the anti-aging.

Toby Larson:

So to circle back to the getting out the door, the anti-anxiety helps you not be worried about how hard this workout’s going to be, about how are you going to feel the next day. If you’re starting from scratch and trying to become active, you need a coach to help you along with that, because you need social support. There’s a lot more than just one drug that’s going to help you through it. You need a community to help you change the cycle on that.

Toby Larson:

But if you’re an adult athlete trying to fight off aging as hard as you can, this plant will absolutely benefit you to meet that purpose. If we really want to increase the health of everybody, I think I’m the age group we should be looking at more than any other age group in general, because this is when metabolic disease really starts to switch from being managed by lifestyle and managed by healthcare. Absolutely something we need to avoid if we want to solve a lot of issues that we have in society. We need to not have preventable disease so prevalent.

Chris Holifield:

And when you say your age group, for listeners, you’re in your later forties, right?

Toby Larson:

About. Yeah. I’m 47.

Chris Holifield:

Well, how do you talk about-

Toby Larson:

Older guy.

Chris Holifield:

… your age without … But people listening were like, “Well, this guy’s 21, right?”

Toby Larson:

Damn. No, exactly.

Chris Holifield:

We’re getting up there, Tim. We’re going to be-

Tim Pickett:

I know. We’re getting up there.

Chris Holifield:

… in our late forties here soon.

Toby Larson:

I guess, to go back to really where I’ve seen it super beneficial with me and my friends, in skill acquisition, one of the things that was a goal of mine this ski season, was to be able to hit 15-foot cliffs reliably. I know for a lot of people in the that’s kind of no big deal. I hadn’t before. So, for me, it was kind of a big thing. I don’t know what [crosstalk 00:31:11]-

Chris Holifield:

Is that what the foot brace thing is?

Tim Pickett:

Is that what happened to your foot?

Toby Larson:

No. I sprained the ankle on my bike, but I sprained my ankle. I didn’t break it. I didn’t give myself a concussion. I popped a shoulder.

Chris Holifield:

It happens.

Toby Larson:

I guess I can say I pushed it in just about the right amount because I think you do need to get hurt every now and then if you’re really trying to be an athlete.

Chris Holifield:

It makes you feel alive, right? It’s that you’re still there, right?

Tim Pickett:

And it shows you that you’re pushing right up to the line, which a lot of training isn’t up to the line, right? We do a lot of exercise that’s not that beneficial if you want to get better at what you do.

Toby Larson:

We hold ourselves back a bit, yeah. So I have a whole philosophy on fitness in general. I think a lot of people get too cut up in trying to set fitness goals based upon numbers or aesthetics. Fitness goals based upon abilities, fitness goals based upon capabilities, those have intrinsic reward, and those allow you to stick with it. But it’s hard to stick with stuff, so you need the androgynous aids to help you out, to help make it through, because, once again, if you’re an adult, you have a lot of other responsibilities. Your entire life cannot be just about your performance unless you’re a professional athlete, and then, unfortunately, your entire life is about your fitness.

Tim Pickett:

Right. Then you have the other problem-

Toby Larson:

Exactly.

Tim Pickett:

… which is you don’t want to have a life outside of your fitness.

Toby Larson:

You don’t get to take time off from your fitness, and if you do, it has a massive impact in your career, potentially. Exactly. In fact, when guys do that for too long, when they come back, that’s generally when they’re getting injured. Most [crosstalk 00:33:00]-

Tim Pickett:

So you don’t see this as something that teenagers, early twenties, could benefit from? Or you really just avoid that because of the frontal lobe discussion we had before, which is, really, it’s just probably not safe to be using exogenous cannabinoid therapy, a bunch of THC, smoking a bunch of weed when you’re 18-19 years old, regardless of why you’re doing it.

Toby Larson:

Yeah. I would just say I don’t want to present myself as somebody who could speak to that age group. I feel like there’s a lot there that I don’t know. So I feel it’s safer to stay away from it, absolutely, at that point. But I also would say I don’t know.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah.

Toby Larson:

So I should not be one to make the determination on that, either. Hopefully there’s more people that, as time goes on, are willing to admit where their ignorance lies.

Chris Holifield:

Yeah. Because I know, I mean, you’ve had patients that are younger, right?

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. We certainly have patients that are in that age group, 18 to 21 and then 21 to 25. And we do say the same things that you’re talking about. Look, anything that’s not natural, that’s not fruits and vegetables and exercise and good sleep, is not ideal. But we also live in the modern world, where now we’re talking about, okay, am I going to put you on a benzodiazepine, or am I going to let you use a little cannabis? Now, we’re starting to have this discussion of either/or. Which is worse? That’s the studies we need, and those are the studies we don’t really have, are those specific studies where one thing is better than the other, from a long-term and negative side effects standpoint. Is your nerve pain so bad that you need something strong, that, yeah, it has negative side effects, but that’s the way it is? It’s less than … Or the seizure. Same thing.

Toby Larson:

I mean, for me, I would defer completely to you on non-adult use. I guess when I started doing my research, I didn’t even look at that age group, even to know anything about it. So I feel like, yeah, I guess, for me, it seems like it’s an extreme black box, how it works for, say, the 18- to 24-year-old range in a performance setting. I also would imagine that if you’re in the 18- to 24-year-old range who’s really being very serious and dedicated about performance, there’s probably ambition there, in which case, now you need to make sure that you’re following the rules and the ways that’s not going to get you banned from your sport, and not going to take two years off of your career during your prime.

Tim Pickett:

So do you think that there are sports or skill acquisition things that marijuana’s not good for?

Toby Larson:

I would say if you consider the short-term memory potential loss for marijuana use, probably any type of choreographed sport would be problematic. So, absolutely, your-

Tim Pickett:

Dancers, figure skaters.

Toby Larson:

… dancers, your figure skaters. Yeah. The synchronized divers. Probably very tough for them. If you’re trying to learn a specific combined sequence of movements that’s part of a choreography. Now, if you’re trying to improve your abilities, then it’s the complete opposite. If we want to improve our skills, we need to be less focused actually on our body mechanics and more focused on the outcome of our actions, of what we’re trying to produce with our skis, with our bike, with our blade, whatever is we’re using.

Toby Larson:

In the case of running, focus on getting the ground ahead of us to be the ground behind us, getting the soles of the shoes to pull that ground past us, letting our feet propel our body forward. So, in that case, what the marijuana use does then, it lets you get out of your way and lets you become more in tune with the sensations you’re getting as you’re engaged in your sport. That’s what you need to be attuned to if you’re trying to improve your performance. You need to feel the subtle differences as you just make minor adjustments subconsciously to the changing conditions.

Toby Larson:

When I’m skiing, when we’re skiing, we can go down a mogul field sober and start getting really focused on where our knees are, where our hands are. Am I front seat enough? Am I leaning back too far? How steep is this mogul field? Versus we can roll up there a little bit high and really just enjoy it and feel it and start to pick up the timing and start to develop the physical feel and be attuned to the different inputs we’re receiving from our senses and start to understand how to manipulate whatever equipment we’re using to generate the feel that we’re looking for, as opposed to trying to do it right, as opposed to trying to do it a specific way. That allows your skills to increase, which makes the activity far more enjoyable. That then sustains you in that activity for much longer, because now your endorphins are kicking in. You’re tuned in. You’re focused, and you’re in that zone.

Tim Pickett:

Now you’re allowing the dopamine response to come chemically in the body. You’re enhancing it a little bit. I mean, as a side note, don’t try this at home, kids. This is not medical advice, and this isn’t really researched. But it’s just a fascinating discussion about a whole different side of cannabis use that we don’t think about a lot.

Toby Larson:

But, once again, I think it comes back to medicinal use. If we think about all this stuff in the greater scheme of anti-aging, and in the greater scheme of being healthier as an adult, like I said, I believe the greatest combatant to aging is mobility. The more mobile you are, the more youthful people think you are, because you’re always more mobile, or you should be more mobile at a younger age just always, because your biology is better. I mean, I guess you hit your peaks somewhere in your mid-twenties. If anybody’s considering a kinesiology program, once you take motor development over the lifespan, you will become the most depressed person, because you realize from 25 on, it’s just downhill. It is decay from then on.

Tim Pickett:

It’s just decay.

Chris Holifield:

Then it hits again at 40, I think, right? It accelerates as you go down the hill.

Toby Larson:

It changes gears. Each decade the falloff speeds. But it doesn’t have to.

Chris Holifield:

True.

Toby Larson:

You can fight the biology. You just have to do it with physical work and diet. The few studies that I’ve read that have been good, that have numbers on it, one has been on the metabolic syndrome. It shows that regular marijuana users have a much lower prevalence of any of the metabolic diseases, such as diabetes, hypertension, obesity, than the general public, almost a half to a third of what the general public rate is. So, clearly, this has benefits there. We don’t have research to explain why that benefit exists.

Toby Larson:

I think one of the explanations for that benefit is that there’s people like me out there, that are using it to allow them to live life like a pro athlete in their late forties, because it gives you that recovery ability. It gives you the ability to focus on what you’re doing and not be distracted by things going on outside of your performance or just general worries that then make you make hesitant errors that are generally the ones that are going to lead to injury. Hesitation in action sport is where more injuries occur than trying too hard, I would argue, for adults. So, to me, it’s provided this ability to tap into a youth I have within me, but requires a lot of heavy work to get out.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. That makes sense. You mentioned you have your medical card here in Utah. What are some of your favorite ways to consume cannabis, especially before athletic-type things?

Toby Larson:

I just got a Dr. Dabber. That thing is brilliant. I absolutely love it. It’s great. It uses such a small amount to create the vapor. The way it creates the vapor, I mean, the induction just absolutely seems to give me a predictable dose and give me a predictable feeling that then I can know … So one of the studies that I’ve read, and I would say it’s not super great data because they only had a couple hundred participants, but what they did find is that the individuals who smoked or who consumed cannabis an hour prior to working out were within two hours of working out, did about 20% more effort in terms of cardiovascular output and would do about 30% more effort if it were anaerobic exercise.

Tim Pickett:

Wow. That’s surprising.

Toby Larson:

But if you think about your story with running-

Tim Pickett:

Oh, yeah. I mean, I would imagine-

Toby Larson:

… you’re able to not-

Tim Pickett:

… the running … Yeah. You’re just able to run forever. And you don’t care. The only thing I would say with, for instance, trail running and cannabis is if you have your dog with you, just be careful because you forget where your dog is, and you got to go look for your dog.

Toby Larson:

You got to know when you can completely tune out from the world-

Tim Pickett:

Exactly.

Toby Larson:

… and when you’ve got to [crosstalk 00:44:00]-

Chris Holifield:

Just don’t take your dog along, Tim.

Tim Pickett:

You’re like, “Dang it. That dog is like two canyons over.”

Toby Larson:

[inaudible 00:44:05] just-

Tim Pickett:

Right? You’re just trucking.

Toby Larson:

Next thing you know you’re in Davis County.

Tim Pickett:

Right? How did I get here? Dang it. Gus? Gus, where are you? Yeah. I really like this conversation. I think that talking about cannabis as a supplement is interesting. There’s this whole other thing I’ve been thinking as we’re talking. And I’m starting to get into the science of what cannabinoids I would try to manipulate or consume in different ways to enhance this. Delta-9 THC is mostly what we’re talking about today because that’s what separates you from the short-term memory and the time dilation. So if there’s not enough studies on just cannabis in general, there’s certainly not going to be any data on which cannabinoids to use. But I can totally see, in the future, these things that will come off the shelf. I mean, there’s already a huge market for adult athletes in the supplement industry, and this does make a lot of sense.

Toby Larson:

And CBD in athletics, I would say it almost looks like breakfast cereal. There’s so many choices. I mean, it’s numerous, with large manufacturers, small ones. Clearly, there’s a market for it. I’ve found that the medical cannabis-derived products just work so much better than the hemp-derived CBD products.

Chris Holifield:

Maybe this will help change some of that stigma, that lazy stoner. They just sit on the couch and eat potato chips, right?

Toby Larson:

Yeah. I mean-

Chris Holifield:

Especially an athletic thing, right?

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. Right?

Toby Larson:

220 to 165. I mean, and I don’t look like I’m a beanpole, either. I mean, I’m an athletic, tall man that people-

Chris Holifield:

Yeah. I think we’ve talked about that, Tim, how most people that smoke weed, that use cannabis, tend to be thinner people.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. They’re thinner. On average, they’re thinner people. Now, I mean, there are products out there, and, certainly, we use it for chemotherapy, nausea. We use it to help people eat more, which it does. If you use it well and under a kind of instruction, then it can be used to gain weight. No doubt about it. But, on the whole, people don’t gain. They just don’t gain weight. Most of the time people, they think they’re hungry, but they’re actually just thirsty. And little Tim’s tidbits right here. If you just keep some ice water next to you, or close, and you drink water first, you’re not that hungry.

Chris Holifield:

I like that.

Toby Larson:

I agree. Yeah.

Chris Holifield:

How-

Toby Larson:

Or … Go ahead.

Tim Pickett:

Go ahead, Chris.

Chris Holifield:

Well, I was just going to ask … change the direction a little bit. How has the Utah market treated you? You got your card. You’re hitting up some of these pharmacy dispensaries. How has it been for getting product for you?

Toby Larson:

I’d say now it’s incredibly better. I think Utah is starting to turn the corner on production. I’d love to see live resin. I’d love to see bubble hash. I’d love to see all the things that you can get in Nevada, in California, in Colorado, here. I think it’s on the way. I believe it was three or four podcasts ago, it was discussed on your podcast, and, basically, how there’s so much going into vape carts right now that they’re just isn’t enough plant material to provide-

Tim Pickett:

That’s true.

Toby Larson:

… additional product. But I’ve noticed some are starting to provide … Instead of carts, they’re providing syringes, so at least the oil. You don’t need to have the screw attachment thing. So it’ll work in the-

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. It works in your-

Toby Larson:

… Dr. Dab again now.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. It’ll work in the dab rig. I think that was Beverly when we were talking to Jilu and talking about, yeah, there’s just not enough plant material yet to make-

Chris Holifield:

Soon.

Tim Pickett:

… because it takes so much plant material to make live resin.

Toby Larson:

Definitely. I think that seems to be going away, because it seems like the production is getting better. My dad was a farmer back in the day. Understand, you have good years and bad years. If it’s your first time raising a crop, it’s going to take a little bit to learn it. And so-

Chris Holifield:

You’ve got to be patient. People don’t realize that. I think if we’re just patient, hey, next year’s going to be bomb here in Utah is what I say, right?

Tim Pickett:

It really is going to be cool. I mean, I can’t wait. We’re opening up events now for the summer. Yeah. 2022 is shaping up to be really fun.

Chris Holifield:

Well, all the growers will be up and going. I think all the dispensaries-

Tim Pickett:

All the pharmacies.

Chris Holifield:

… should be up and going. All the more card users, more and more everything.

Toby Larson:

I’m starting to see CBG now.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. A lot of it. In fact, we bought some vape carts from Clean Leaf up in Logan, and he’s got a CBG/CBD vape cart that is strong. And another, CBN. There’s a vape cart-

Toby Larson:

So explain those to me because I-

Tim Pickett:

Jilu has a vape cart in Bountiful that’s one-to-one THC and CBG. So it’s half CBG. That’s a strong vape cart and totally medical product. You’re not going to find that in Vegas.

Chris Holifield:

At Wholesome?

Tim Pickett:

I know.

Chris Holifield:

That’s at Wholesome?

Tim Pickett:

Yeah, that’s at Wholesome.

Toby Larson:

Explain to me how the CBG and CBN and them … What are they providing? Because I’d be curious to know that so I could think of how I could use that from a performance setting.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. I’ve been thinking about this while we’ve been talking. I would say CBG is anti-inflammatory, more so than CBD. So you would find a little more recovery potentially, especially as an older athlete with the CBG carts or CBG product. CBN is known to cause sleep and decreased anxiety. It’s more relaxing, so it would be beneficial for … We use it a lot for anxiety, PTSD, and sleep. But it’s the go-to for sleep. When you leave your weed out in the car and it gets old and hot, a lot of the THC becomes CBN. And so old weed causes you to go to sleep, and it’s because of the CBN.

Tim Pickett:

So if you can pinpoint products like that, then you could, I guess, manipulate that for recovery. Maybe CBG and CBN would be great. The CBD is that universal kind that works for everything. It fits into a lot of receptors pretty well. So mix that with a little THC at all the points. Then you have delta-8, which is controversial somewhat. In fact, we’ve just recorded another video on Discover Marijuana about delta-8 specifically, that’ll come out in about a month, that absorbs more peripherally, won’t get you quite the head high, so could be good for recovery. Could be really good for recovery. Might not be the right thing for skill acquisition because you don’t quite get the psychoactivity you might be looking for.

Toby Larson:

Oh. So when we think about anxiety in a performance environment, or in a skill acquisition environment, if you’re doing reps to improve your skill, there is a performance element in that, even though your purpose is learning. But the anxiety will either come bottom up, which means that your nerves are basically being generated from the sensors in your skin and in your muscles, and then that creates the brain response and the anxiety response. There’s also top-down anxiety, which is generated from either your lack of confidence in your own skills, or confusion in your mind about what it is you’re trying to do, various elements. But then that then starts in the brain and then causes trembling down into the feet, down into the hands, causes different coordination that way.

Toby Larson:

So it’s interesting. I wonder if the CBG, if you were an athlete who tended to be just fine, and then all of a sudden, whatever it is, the trail hits you the wrong way or something happens, and then, all of a sudden, now that gets you off-track and gets you thinking the wrong way, thinking in a detracted way, where instead of your brain being really focused on the results of the actions that you’re trying to create, second by second, it’s now created on how you’re doing it. What are you doing? Is what I’m doing okay? If we shut that off, that person would be really benefited by that immensely.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. You could use delta-8 essentially for that peripheral pain control. That may be the bottom-up piece, if I’m hearing you correctly. The delta-9, there’s a Fruit of Life or a Forbidden Fruit cart Zion makes that’s delta-8, and I think keeping a journal during these activities with different products is probably the only way to do it. Here’s how I’m feeling before, here’s how I’m feeling during, here’s how I’m feeling after with these different products. But delta-8 is a really interesting product, too, because it’s not quite as psychoactive, but it’s a THC, and it’s absorbing peripherally. We use it a lot for nausea, GI issues, and peripheral pain control in patients who don’t want to get high.

Toby Larson:

Gorilla glue has actually been my-

Chris Holifield:

That’s a good one.

Toby Larson:

… last four pushing myself off a cliffs with.

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. Very anti-anxiety. A little heavier indica strain.

Toby Larson:

I know. I would’ve thought it would’ve been a sativa, in all honesty. But it was like-

Tim Pickett:

It could be the terpene profile on that anti-anxiety portion of it could work really well.

Toby Larson:

Yeah. It really is fantastic with that. And then I found the ski train, it is … Oh, gosh. Now I forgot … S’mores.

Tim Pickett:

S’mores?

Chris Holifield:

S’mores. Yeah.

Toby Larson:

Yeah. For me, it gives a temporal distortion. I think what’s going on with the temporal distortion is that it creates this hyper focus, so I’m really not hearing or recognizing too much in my periphery. And so, for high-speed tree skiing, that’s fantastic, because, really, you only want to be looking … You want to be planning-

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. One or two turns.

Toby Larson:

… third turn from now so that I can make sure that this turn and the next turn allows me to make that third turn. And that’s just all the way down the hill until you’re too tired or you miss.

Tim Pickett:

Right.

Toby Larson:

You reach that one way or the other and get going again. It’s been interesting. I found those two strains have been kind of ideal. Now, predictability of those two strains being available has been less than ideal, but better than it was two years ago, I would say.

Chris Holifield:

Yeah. I was going to say, that S’mores, though, I haven’t seen that. I don’t know.

Tim Pickett:

No, I haven’t seen it, either.

Chris Holifield:

That was a Tryke. That looked like a Tryke-

Toby Larson:

Yeah.

Chris Holifield:

… label. Where did you pick that up at?

Toby Larson:

I think that one came from across the street.

Chris Holifield:

Really?

Tim Pickett:

Beehive.

Chris Holifield:

Beehive.

Toby Larson:

But it might’ve been Dragonfly.

Chris Holifield:

Okay. I’ll have to keep an eye out for that. Yeah.

Toby Larson:

Those are the two I go to. I look online to see who actually has product in stock.

Tim Pickett:

You’re doing it the right way. Look online before you go.

Chris Holifield:

Yeah. I always do. Put it on hold, too, you know?

Tim Pickett:

Oh, yeah. That’s a good idea.

Chris Holifield:

And especially Beehive will hold it for 48 hours. [crosstalk 00:56:17]-

Tim Pickett:

Yeah. And if you’re concerned, if you’re somebody who buys a significant amount, you might want to look on EVS, too, and make sure you’ve got enough purchasing ability to buy what you need. We’ve been running into a little bit of an issue with the upgraded … I would call it upgraded, but it’s an enhanced security measure at the pharmacies, where they’re checking all the dosing before they sell you the product. You need to make sure that you’re checking on how much you can purchase before you go. This has been awesome, Chris.

Chris Holifield:

Yeah. Is there anything you were wanting to talk about before we wrap this episode up, or anything as we wind it down or anything?

Toby Larson:

No, this has been fantastic. I would say, I think we all need to really push the state to let us grow five plants.

Chris Holifield:

I agree.

Toby Larson:

Even if there’s a quarterly license you got to pay to maintain it so that the state gets their cut, I just hope that’s down the road for us. Like I told you, I had a supplier who was a terminal cancer patient, brain cancer. I can’t imagine for somebody like that, not being able to grow their own and just cultivate in their own backyard. I think there is a dignity of life that we’re denying those people. That breaks my heart that we do that in this state of all states. So that would be the only thing I would want to add.

Chris Holifield:

I wonder how hard … because, I mean, that would be quite hard to track, growing, wouldn’t it? Because I know that’s a big thing in Utah. They love to track it seed to sale.

Tim Pickett:

They love to track it. Yes.

Chris Holifield:

So it’s like if you grew it at home, how would they track it?

Toby Larson:

Maybe we started-

Tim Pickett:

When they get the drones and they’re surveying us, then they’ll be able to track it, hopefully.

Chris Holifield:

Yeah.

Toby Larson:

Maybe we just start it with the terminal cancer patients, and maybe it only goes to them. But maybe we realize, hey, maybe there’s a segment of our medical users we should admit that their situation is vastly different than the rest of ours, and we should give them a little-

Tim Pickett:

Sure.

Chris Holifield:

Oh, I agree.

Toby Larson:

… different.

Chris Holifield:

I just think-

Tim Pickett:

There’s a …

Chris Holifield:

Oh. Go ahead.

Tim Pickett:

There’s a good program. You mentioned terminal cancer patients. I want to bring up that Utah Patients Coalition has a terminal cancer program, subsidy program. If you know somebody with terminal cancer, go to the Utah Patients Coalition website, apply for the subsidy program, especially if that patient can’t afford their product, can’t afford their doctor visits. We are involved in that, in Utah Therapeutic. If patients need help with that, it’s a good program.

Chris Holifield:

Very cool. How can listeners get ahold of you, Toby? Or can they? I mean, is there-

Toby Larson:

Yeah.

Chris Holifield:

… a way that people can locate you, or Instagram, Facebook … I don’t know. Whatever.

Toby Larson:

Yeah. I think the best is probably … I don’t really do too much on social media, but I have an Instagram account. It’s @fitmindtraining, and if you’re curious about seeing work I’ve done, you can look at the tags. A lot of athletes I work with tag me there. I have some ski videos up there if you want to see how terrible I am. And mountain bike videos. I need to get more consistent in using my GoPro so I can have a better crash reel. My best racks, I don’t have it on. I didn’t have it on for this, unfortunately, and I think it would’ve been some enjoyable footage. Certainly, footage of me not crashing, I think is less entertaining. But, yeah, that’s probably the best way to get ahold of me.

Toby Larson:

I’m working with primarily pro MMA athletes, but if you’re an athlete looking to improve your fitness, improve your health, through athletics, through skill acquisition, or you’re just looking to have more fun at whatever sport you’re doing, for sure reach out. It’d be fun to chat with people that are in the same activities as me. And absolutely stop me if you see me on a trail or a ski hill.

Chris Holifield:

Go let him know you heard him on the podcast, right? That’s what I always tell people. Anything else you want to mention on this episode, Tim, before we wrap this up?

Tim Pickett:

No, this has been a great conversation. Thanks for coming out.

Chris Holifield:

Yeah. Thank you.

Toby Larson:

Thank you guys for what you do. Destigmatizing is such an important thing, and I appreciate this, the work that you guys do.

Chris Holifield:

Well, thank you.

Toby Larson:

Podcasts aren’t easy to do, and consistency is probably the hardest thing.

Chris Holifield:

How did you find this podcast?

Toby Larson:

I actually found you guys through … I think it was through Dragonfly’s blog.

Chris Holifield:

Okay. Yeah.

Tim Pickett:

Nice.

Chris Holifield:

Very cool. I always like-

Tim Pickett:

That is really great.

Chris Holifield:

… to ask people how they found it. Well, cool.

Toby Larson:

It was Instagram. I saw you guys were tagged on-

Chris Holifield:

Somebody’s post.

Toby Larson:

Yeah.

Chris Holifield:

Somebody’s post. We’re tagged on a lot of posts.

Tim Pickett:

We’re tagged on it.

Chris Holifield:

Very cool. Yeah. Go to UtahMarijuana.org/podcasts. That’s where you can listen to all the podcasts. Subscribe in your favorite podcast app.

Tim Pickett:

Reach out to us if you need to at UtahMarijuana.org, and stay safe out there.

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